Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.
Speaker 2: So Catherine, you're gonna kill me? Oh no, like kill me.
Speaker 3: But it's scared.
Speaker 2: So this episode is about sex.
Speaker 3: I'm so mad at you. Well, have fun hosting by yourself.
Speaker 3: I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2: Well, we have doctor Vivienna coming on. She's actually a
Speaker 2: sex expert. And you know, when we were discussing you
Speaker 2: coming on the podcast, You're like, I can come today,
Speaker 2: and I was like great. I was like I would
Speaker 2: love for you too, because you know, sex just isn't
Speaker 2: your favorite topic in the world.
Speaker 3: Not in front of like, however many people listen to.
Speaker 2: This, it's in front of Okay, Okay, it's right, you're right,
Speaker 2: you're right, and so, but it just so happened. You're like,
Speaker 2: but I have to be out from this time to
Speaker 2: this time, and I'm like, oh, I was like, it's
Speaker 2: like you somewhat knew that, Like you like that you
Speaker 2: had to be unavailable from like the time that she
Speaker 2: was able to be on because that's how much she
Speaker 2: loathed talking about sex.
Speaker 4: Thank god.
Speaker 2: Where do you think that comes from? Is it like
Speaker 2: a like a taboo thing from like.
Speaker 3: Probably from childhood?
Speaker 4: Yeah, we didn't talk about it a lot, very like
Speaker 4: southern Baptist Christian family, like it just wasn't We didn't
Speaker 4: talk about a whole lot, but definitely not sex.
Speaker 2: So what do you how do you think you'll do
Speaker 2: that with the kids then, so that way it's not
Speaker 2: like the you know that kind of we've.
Speaker 4: Actually talked about it a lot, you have, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: I've already had like a full conversation with my nine
Speaker 4: year old.
Speaker 3: Now the nine yeah, hey, they say eight is too late. No, yeah,
Speaker 3: I know what.
Speaker 2: I didn't even know it sex was until like, well,
Speaker 2: yeah the freshman year school.
Speaker 4: Well I definitely knew before that, but I heard from
Speaker 4: everybody else, not you know, my family.
Speaker 2: How old were you when you honestly found out about sex?
Speaker 2: I heard about sex.
Speaker 3: I think I was like eleven, probably fourth or fifth grade.
Speaker 2: I mean we talked. Grade is when they teach you
Speaker 2: about sperm and stuff, right, isn't that word?
Speaker 3: Like I just don't think my kids.
Speaker 2: There was a video we had to watch where it's
Speaker 2: like you saw sperm like this little like floaty thing,
Speaker 2: and then it talked about like our periods, and then
Speaker 2: I just remember being like this sucks. But that was
Speaker 2: fifth grade and then never spoke about it again.
Speaker 3: So what did your parents talk to you about it?
Speaker 2: Not once?
Speaker 4: So you just went the opposite way. You love to
Speaker 4: talk about it and I hate to talk about.
Speaker 2: It just you know, but yeah, so, I mean, they
Speaker 2: honestly say eight is too late.
Speaker 4: Well, the problem is is that when people start talking
Speaker 4: so like, Okay, my twelve year old is a boy.
Speaker 4: My husband had that conversation. But I knew one of
Speaker 4: his best friends, when he was probably about nine, had
Speaker 4: already had that conversation with his parents, had been asking
Speaker 4: questions about other stuff.
Speaker 2: And what like kissing, touching penis is the giants.
Speaker 4: Like rape, Like he had asked a question about rape,
Speaker 4: I know, at nine, and so I was very concerned
Speaker 4: that he was going to then have the conversation with Cayden.
Speaker 4: So I had Nick have that conversation. I don't know
Speaker 4: a whole lot about how that conversation went.
Speaker 2: You didn't ask Nick for work, but of course you.
Speaker 4: Know he had a couple of Burmans before. No, so
Speaker 4: they've had that conversation. I left, and Kayden and I
Speaker 4: have talked about it also.
Speaker 2: Like what do you talk about? That's the thing, like,
Speaker 2: like what's like a cause I'm like, so I don't
Speaker 2: even know. I'm like, well you the vagina.
Speaker 4: Well, here's the thing. It depends on the kid. Like
Speaker 4: Kayden doesn't ask questions. He just sat there, so I
Speaker 4: think it was extremely uncomfortable for Nick, and he talks
Speaker 4: about stuff all the time. Yeah, any though, my nine
Speaker 4: year old she asked questions, so it's actually easy, like
Speaker 4: what kind of questions, Like, well, we started we're sharing
Speaker 4: about periods. We started with periods, and then we walked
Speaker 4: about tampons and how they and then you move on
Speaker 4: and it's like, okay, have you heard of sex. Well
Speaker 4: I've heard of it, but I don't know what it is.
Speaker 4: It's like, okay, well that's where a penis. And then
Speaker 4: you just but she kept asking questions, so it just
Speaker 4: led to it. So we had a full on conversation.
Speaker 2: Did she ask like why do people do that? Because
Speaker 2: like that would be a question I would ask like
Speaker 2: why do why does a penis in a vagina get together?
Speaker 3: I mean I think she did.
Speaker 2: I think, what do you say? Like it just feels good?
Speaker 4: I don't remember, and I had it like I was
Speaker 4: so proud of myself.
Speaker 3: But having said that, I still don't enjoy it.
Speaker 2: Having it and talking about it.
Speaker 1: Thanks, you know, mark the rule of thumbs kind of
Speaker 1: if they're asking questions about it, it's time to talk
Speaker 1: about it, and you can kind of gauge by their
Speaker 1: questions how deep you should go into it.
Speaker 2: What do you think about the eight is too late?
Speaker 5: It depends on what they're asking.
Speaker 1: If they're not asking anything that, I'm not sure I
Speaker 1: would just kind of confront them with it before eight
Speaker 1: years old.
Speaker 5: I think I would kind of let them guide me.
Speaker 5: Here's my rebuttal passive style. I'm a little passive.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, yes, I can be the rebuttal to that
Speaker 4: is like my twelve year old son Is would not
Speaker 4: probably ever ask a question.
Speaker 3: He would just let it go. So I don't know
Speaker 3: that's hard.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I think what like I never got the
Speaker 1: talk from my parents, and they might dispute that, but
Speaker 1: I don't remember ever getting it. I remember learning it
Speaker 1: in fifth grade in school and going to my friends.
Speaker 5: Like, did you guys hear that the penis goes into did.
Speaker 6: You know that?
Speaker 5: Yeah? Yeah, we all knew that.
Speaker 4: I'm like, oh man, we wanted to do the same
Speaker 4: video last one on sex, and that's the problem though,
Speaker 4: when you asked all your friends, they already all knew.
Speaker 3: And that was fifth grade.
Speaker 4: Yeah, my daughter's going into fourth It might have been,
Speaker 4: but she was the one with a million questions and
Speaker 4: it just led to a question to a question to it.
Speaker 4: So it honestly was easy because it just I just
Speaker 4: had to answer them. But so she already knew a
Speaker 4: good bit.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry. The fact that Mark just said I learned
Speaker 2: that Santa Claus wasn't real, that a penis that goes
Speaker 2: into a vagina was probably the best thing I've heard
Speaker 2: this Monday.
Speaker 5: That was the last one on both of those of
Speaker 5: all my friends.
Speaker 2: Oh that's going to be the same, mean the Santa
Speaker 2: Claus thing, that's going to be. How old were you?
Speaker 2: I think I was actually probably in fifth grade.
Speaker 3: I don't remember. I just kind of pretended.
Speaker 1: Forever I was really late because one year, some friends
Speaker 1: of my parents stopped by on Christmas Eve after I
Speaker 1: had gone to bed, and they had just been at
Speaker 1: a Christmas party, so they were a dressed as Santa
Speaker 1: and Missus Claws in full costume. So the next morning
Speaker 1: my parents showed me a photo they took in our
Speaker 1: living room with Santa and Missus Clause.
Speaker 5: So as far as I was concerned, this was proof.
Speaker 1: Nobody could tell me Otherwise I would never be convinced
Speaker 1: because I had photographic evidence.
Speaker 2: That is the cutest thing ever.
Speaker 6: Though.
Speaker 2: I love that. I mean, and I think Santa Claus
Speaker 2: and you know, mister Clause, like Missus and mister Clause.
Speaker 2: I think they had sex, you.
Speaker 3: Know, although they did.
Speaker 2: Did they have babies?
Speaker 3: No, there's not little there's just the hells.
Speaker 2: But I don't think hilarious Doctor Vivianna, who's coming on?
Speaker 2: She has these four uh different I think it's I
Speaker 2: think it's four intimacy styles.
Speaker 3: Yeah, good thing I gotta get. I just it's I
Speaker 3: don't know.
Speaker 2: Do you just not enjoy it?
Speaker 4: It just makes me uncomfortable to talk about I don't
Speaker 4: know why.
Speaker 3: It's like our rule no talking.
Speaker 2: I'm just kidding. Yeah, it's fine, it's fine, all right, Well, Catherine,
Speaker 2: I know you don't want to talk about it. I
Speaker 2: won't talk about it anymore. I just I like sex.
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's talk about it.
Speaker 2: I do. I think it's healthy. But that's but I'm
Speaker 2: not saying it's not not healthy. Like if that's something
Speaker 2: that you don't like to talk about We don't have
Speaker 2: to talk about it. You know, I'll keep pushing you,
Speaker 2: but I know you will.
Speaker 3: I'll get there and you don't.
Speaker 2: I mean again, like some people, I'm not comfortable with
Speaker 2: what am I not comfortable with confrontation? Sure, so I'm
Speaker 2: not comfortable with that. I don't like talking about confrontation.
Speaker 2: I usually just cry or or delete my number. That's
Speaker 2: moving to a different country. Hate confrontation. So yeah, I mean,
Speaker 2: we all are uncomfortable with different things. So I love
Speaker 2: you and I appreciate you. Know, go have your meeting.
Speaker 2: Pam's going to hop in for you. Thanks, but I'd
Speaker 2: love to have you back for some emails at the
Speaker 2: end of the show. Okay, because you have you are
Speaker 2: good with everything else but sex.
Speaker 3: Okay, thanks, we'll.
Speaker 2: Be back butt sex.
Speaker 3: That's such a guy.
Speaker 2: So we have doctor Vivianna Coles coming on. She has
Speaker 2: a new book out called The Four Intimacy Styles, which
Speaker 2: I have. I don't know anything about that, do you, Pam?
Speaker 2: I don't know anything. I would love to know because
Speaker 2: when I hear like, I'm like, there's different styles, Like,
Speaker 2: isn't intimacy just intimacy? Like you think right, right, I mean,
Speaker 2: but now you know reading that, it's like, well, I mean,
Speaker 2: just like everybody's different, I'm sure they're right. I love language. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I feel like it's one of those things too where
Speaker 2: when you know, you think about like love languages and
Speaker 2: intimacy and all that, it's intimacy, isn't just sex. But
Speaker 2: for a long time, like I thought that sex was intimacy.
Speaker 7: And if you weren't having sex like with your partner
Speaker 7: or you know, then like something was wrong.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's like it has to be wrong, right,
Speaker 2: Like clearly we're not intimate, and isn't being intimate having sex?
Speaker 2: Like what ways do you like feel like what fills
Speaker 2: your intimacy cup? I mean I'm kind of the same
Speaker 2: way two girls just want to have sex.
Speaker 7: Well, I mean for me, it's like that's the like
Speaker 7: the common bond, especially when you're married and you have
Speaker 7: these kids and you're like running around and can you
Speaker 7: can easily turn into just like co parenting and you know,
Speaker 7: like partnerships and parenting instead of like really you know,
Speaker 7: focusing like on your relationship. So I feel like, you know,
Speaker 7: then that brings that relationship, that more intimate relationship right,
Speaker 7: you know.
Speaker 2: That was always like such a struggle because that is
Speaker 2: my thing, Like that's in our I remember our couples
Speaker 2: therapist is always like okay, like what other ways can
Speaker 2: can you find intimacy? And I'm just like, but can't
Speaker 2: it just be sex too? Like like I I enjoy it,
Speaker 2: like I wanna I would like to have, but there's
Speaker 2: I think it's you know, also like handholding and those things.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think I've always been like fearful, like
Speaker 2: you know when like the sex stops or isn't there
Speaker 2: as like much as it was, is the relationship stopping?
Speaker 2: Oh it's a good question. Well, doctor Vivianna is in
Speaker 2: the waiting room, s let's bringer in and ask her.
Speaker 2: That's a really good question. Okay, So we were just
Speaker 2: talking about obviously intimacy and you have there's four different styles,
Speaker 2: so we're dying to know what are those four different styles.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 6: So in my book The Four Intimacy Styles, I go
Speaker 6: into great detail about how important it is to not
Speaker 6: just know what your own intimacy style is, but how
Speaker 6: to round it out so you can have that lasting
Speaker 6: physical connection with a partner, which is super important. So
Speaker 6: they're bonding release, giving, and responsiveness, and all four of
Speaker 6: them are valid, all four of them are necessary. And
Speaker 6: I think that what a lot of people don't realize
Speaker 6: is that they might think that bonding is the ultimate
Speaker 6: way to experience intimacy and sexuality.
Speaker 2: But you mean as bonding sex? No bonding is because
Speaker 2: I didn't hear sex and that, I'm like, a sex is, Like,
Speaker 2: isn't that Like we're just saying like that's our number one?
Speaker 2: I'm like, what, so which one? Which one is that?
Speaker 6: So I'm only talking about sexuality here. Emotional intimacy. There's
Speaker 6: so much information about there out there about it, but
Speaker 6: physical intimacy is what I'm all about in this book.
Speaker 6: And so bonding is a type of intimacy style. So
Speaker 6: you might feel that in order to feel physically connected
Speaker 6: to somebody, you have to feel emotionally connected to them,
Speaker 6: and you do that through experiencing sexuality with them, So
Speaker 6: that creates that bonding. And then giving is when you're
Speaker 6: that person who says, if you're okay, I'm okay, you're
Speaker 6: experiencing pleasure because of something that I'm doing. Oh my gosh,
Speaker 6: I feel so close to you, I feel so connected
Speaker 6: to you. And then release is whenever somebody says, I
Speaker 6: really just want to get off, Yeah, and in order
Speaker 6: to really feel connected to you, I need to get off.
Speaker 6: And then we have responsiveness and people who say, you
Speaker 6: know what, I'm not really thinking about sex right now,
Speaker 6: but now that we're kind of into it, I'm into
Speaker 6: it and I feel close to you and maybe we
Speaker 6: can do it again soon. But they're not the ones
Speaker 6: experiencing that spontaneous desire that a lot of people think
Speaker 6: should be happening. You know, it doesn't happen to everyone. Actually,
Speaker 6: very few people experience spontaneous desire that makes them them
Speaker 6: want to motivate. You know, their partners have sex. So
Speaker 6: you need to have all four if you're going to
Speaker 6: be with someone forever and be getting lucky.
Speaker 2: Interesting because what happens if you don't have that because
Speaker 2: you were just asking what was your question and you
Speaker 2: basically said, like, if you don't have that.
Speaker 7: Yeah, it then like what happens to the relationship, Like
Speaker 7: it's I feel like, you know, sometimes when the sex
Speaker 7: stops and isn't as much as you know it was
Speaker 7: maybe before, Like then yeah, like I would just get
Speaker 7: scared because of what happens to the relationship, then.
Speaker 6: Well, a lot of people are experiencing it right now.
Speaker 6: You feel like this dullness, this grayness that comes across
Speaker 6: all of the good times. So you might be experiencing
Speaker 6: that French to you know, that feeling of like you're
Speaker 6: my content b and I love you for that. But
Speaker 6: if you don't have the physical connection and you're not
Speaker 6: experiencing consistent, satisfying physical intimacy and a relationship no matter
Speaker 6: what it chooses to look like, you're going to end
Speaker 6: up either together but really dissatisfied and possibly even looking elsewhere,
Speaker 6: or you're going to end up feeling like physically you're
Speaker 6: you're you know, things will start atrophy, You'll start to
Speaker 6: experience depression. It can really be something that you know,
Speaker 6: emotionally drags you down, physically drags you down, and then
Speaker 6: of course a lot of people will just leave their partners.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I remember, oh, in my past relationship
Speaker 2: like that's it was just one of those things where
Speaker 2: I'm like I wanted it more than like my partner,
Speaker 2: and it was very hard because it's like I didn't
Speaker 2: feel like it was asking for a lot, but I'm like,
Speaker 2: I'm happier when we do it makes it even if
Speaker 2: I didn't get off, it was just that connection. Is
Speaker 2: that that's like what I like need, That's all I needed.
Speaker 2: But firstly, I.
Speaker 6: Think for a lot of people, they don't realize that
Speaker 6: most people sign up for monogamy right, and so they're
Speaker 6: signing up for this. You are the only person that
Speaker 6: I can do this with. I can tell everybody I
Speaker 6: love them, I can kiss my dog, my doctor will
Speaker 6: see me naked, I'll you know, maybe on a girl's chip,
Speaker 6: share a bed with someone. This is that one thing
Speaker 6: that you're only expected to do with your partner, and
Speaker 6: if it's not happening, there is going to be a
Speaker 6: feeling of something missing. And like you said, it doesn't
Speaker 6: always have to look one way. And that's why I
Speaker 6: think it's so important to know your intimacy style and
Speaker 6: to know how to round it out, which is I
Speaker 6: truly believe the key to making sure that it's lasting,
Speaker 6: because we all want, you know, when we get married
Speaker 6: or we decide to partner up with someone for a
Speaker 6: really long time, we are truly thinking we're going to
Speaker 6: have this intimate connection both emotionally and physically forever, but
Speaker 6: we don't know how to do that, and I've been
Speaker 6: seeing client since two thousand and three. I finally was like,
Speaker 6: you know, I got to get this book out and
Speaker 6: just tell people this is what it takes to be
Speaker 6: physically connected forever, because nobody wants to get divorced. Nobody
Speaker 6: wants to break up. Nobody wants to have that investment
Speaker 6: and then have this physical connection, you know, dissipate or
Speaker 6: just not be satisfying, and then that's the reason why
Speaker 6: they end up divorcing. The other thing is that I
Speaker 6: think in America we judge people for wanting to have
Speaker 6: sex be a really prominent part of our relationships. It's
Speaker 6: almost like, well, that's that's not a good enough reason
Speaker 6: to be the satisfied. Is that y'all are having sex. No,
Speaker 6: it's a really good reason. It's a valid reason, and
Speaker 6: it's not you know a lot of people say infidelity, abuse,
Speaker 6: not caring for children, all of those things are good
Speaker 6: reasons to leave someone. Well, so is not having this
Speaker 6: sexually fulfilling life.
Speaker 2: What happens or what do you say to the people that,
Speaker 2: like a therapist will say, let's take sex off the table.
Speaker 6: I think it's important to take sex off the table.
Speaker 6: But that's not physical intimacy. If we're talking about sexual
Speaker 6: intercourse or orgasm or very specifically, you need to ask
Speaker 6: your therapist what do you mean by that and what's
Speaker 6: the point If sexuality is your way of coming back
Speaker 6: together and ignoring what you just went through and sweeping
Speaker 6: it under the rug and that's your go to pattern, yes,
Speaker 6: you need to take a break so that you can
Speaker 6: really focus on what's happening between you emotionally. But for
Speaker 6: a lot of people, they do use sex as kind
Speaker 6: of like a band aid, and that's where therapists will say, Okay,
Speaker 6: we need to not cloud your judgment. We need to
Speaker 6: take a break from this. This is a bad cycle.
Speaker 2: And if you're getting like kind of in a rut,
Speaker 2: is knowing your because you said like with knowing your
Speaker 2: intimacy styles, that's where you're going to have long lasting,
Speaker 2: like great sex, but to stay fresh? Is that also
Speaker 2: like good to know your intimacy styles or like what
Speaker 2: happens if you're like, all right, we know our styles,
Speaker 2: but like it's just I've been with this person for
Speaker 2: this long and I'm kind of like, how do you
Speaker 2: even have it? Because sometimes it might be awkward to
Speaker 2: be like can we do, like like how to have
Speaker 2: the confidence to say something to like freshen it up right.
Speaker 6: So, if you're trying to round out your intimacy style,
Speaker 6: which then would mean that you're trying to adopt twenty
Speaker 6: five percent of each of the four styles into almost
Speaker 6: every sexual interaction, it takes some work. And I'm going
Speaker 6: to give you lots of examples of that in the
Speaker 6: book of what you can do to be more getting,
Speaker 6: what you can do to experience more release, what you
Speaker 6: can do to be more responsive, what you can do
Speaker 6: to experience more bonding. You're gonna have to put those
Speaker 6: into effect. And now I have a quiz that will
Speaker 6: help you to determine what percentage of each you're at currently,
Speaker 6: so that you can know which one you need to adjust.
Speaker 6: And again it's great for engineers, but it's also great
Speaker 6: for people who are like, I don't know what I'm doing.
Speaker 6: I just know that sometimes we're feeling offfed well. The
Speaker 6: book definitely gives you lots of examples, but for instance,
Speaker 6: with somebody who's not used to being responsive. I've gotten
Speaker 6: a lot of people who tag me on their quiz
Speaker 6: results and they're like zero percent responsive, and they think
Speaker 6: that that's good, well know, because what that ends up
Speaker 6: looking like in real life is that their partner is putting.
Speaker 6: They're not able to allow their partner to take the
Speaker 6: lead at all.
Speaker 3: So they're partners.
Speaker 6: Taking the lead, but they're feeling like it's not enough.
Speaker 6: So for instance, they they're the ones that are always initiating.
Speaker 6: The person who's zero percent responsive is always initiating. So
Speaker 6: their partner's like, okay, you're not giving me a chance.
Speaker 6: They might take a lead emotionally, but physically they're not
Speaker 6: giving the chance to step up. And so that's when
Speaker 6: people say you never initiate. I always do, so it's
Speaker 6: important to take turns.
Speaker 7: But what if you know, I mean, for so many
Speaker 7: years they don't step up.
Speaker 3: And that's I mean.
Speaker 6: In my office, I'm always dealing with people who don't
Speaker 6: know how to initiate. They either feel like they try
Speaker 6: for so many years, so now it's your turn, you
Speaker 6: take the the time. That's not the way a long
Speaker 6: lasting sexual relationship will work. The other thing is some
Speaker 6: people just feel super awkward, like they do like a
Speaker 6: team again and be like, oh, I'm going to put
Speaker 6: myself out there and you're going to reject me. The
Speaker 6: other time is they are awkward and they sometimes like
Speaker 6: use a different voice, or you know, they like they
Speaker 6: walk around being kind of funny. Silliness is fun, right.
Speaker 6: Sex is play for adults. So I get that. But
Speaker 6: if every time you're going into this you feel like
Speaker 6: this rush of oh my gosh, I feel like I'm
Speaker 6: going into myself. Do you mean to have a conversation
Speaker 6: with your partner and just ask them what's the sexiest
Speaker 6: way that I can initiate verbally nonverbally? Do I light
Speaker 6: a candle on my set of the night standing? You
Speaker 6: light yours when you're ready. I mean, there's so many
Speaker 6: different ways to get it done. You just have to
Speaker 6: make sure that it's happening.
Speaker 2: What do you do when the other person doesn't like
Speaker 2: that they're very selfish and it's kind of like, wait,
Speaker 2: what we're done? Like like want to try to like
Speaker 2: you know, it's and yeah, So what would you say
Speaker 2: to the women that are kind of in that situation
Speaker 2: where it's just like and they don't even seem to
Speaker 2: really care or try or to like attempt to like
Speaker 2: get the person off.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is.
Speaker 6: Why it's so important to have this conversation and share
Speaker 6: the for intimacy styles with a partner, because you can
Speaker 6: have that conversation without it being accusatory. Oh, we're supposed
Speaker 6: to both be experiencing release. Oh we're supposed to both
Speaker 6: be being giving, instead of it being you're all released
Speaker 6: and you leave me high and dry. Sometimes sometimes, yeah,
Speaker 6: I think it's so important that you have that conversation.
Speaker 6: You say, hey, I know that maybe after you get off,
Speaker 6: you're exhausted, or you're in like your own world, you
Speaker 6: don't even realize what's going on. But maybe I need
Speaker 6: to seek my pleasure before you experience your climax, because
Speaker 6: otherwise it's not happening, or you know, sometimes it's all
Speaker 6: about what it is that you're doing, the positions that
Speaker 6: you're experiencing. But speak up. So many women do not
Speaker 6: speak up because they don't think it's lately. I wrote
Speaker 6: about that in the book too. They don't think it's ladylike.
Speaker 6: They don't think, you know, they're supposed to be, you know,
Speaker 6: all after the pleasure. But if their partners think that
Speaker 6: they're doing okay, they're going to do the minimum and
Speaker 6: we're going to be less resentful.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's so true. I mean, for I feel
Speaker 2: like in my like I've just found my voice, I
Speaker 2: think with like sex, which is so interesting because it
Speaker 2: was probably towards the very end of my relationship where
Speaker 2: I'm like, hey, like I'm in this too, Like can
Speaker 2: I can I have a little something afterwards? I mean,
Speaker 2: I think the voice also comes with like growing an
Speaker 2: age and yeah, that's where they say, like women in
Speaker 2: like their late thirties, forties or you know, know what
Speaker 2: they want and they are going to speak up. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and it's true. Are you do you feel like you're there?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 7: I mean because it's like, then what are what are?
Speaker 7: What is the other option? You're going to live another
Speaker 7: forty years not being pleasured.
Speaker 2: Right or being like I guess I'll just grab my
Speaker 2: vibrator from the side table. It's like it's either passive aggressive,
Speaker 2: you're resentful, or you go somewhere else or you look
Speaker 2: somewhere else.
Speaker 6: So yeah, yeah, you're gonna end up losing interest, which
Speaker 6: is the last thing that your partner really wants, because
Speaker 6: you'll end up losing interest in sex, and then guess what,
Speaker 6: You'll lose interest in them.
Speaker 2: And then someone else will probably look shiny somewhere else.
Speaker 2: You'll be like, oh well, I can. I'm sure they'd
Speaker 2: have sex with me.
Speaker 6: They look like they have a rounded out intimacy soyle.
Speaker 6: But I do think it all goes back to even
Speaker 6: if you haven't found your voice, Let's say you're in
Speaker 6: your twenties, let's say you're inexperienced. Let's say you're in
Speaker 6: your forties and inexperience, whatever it is. I do think
Speaker 6: it's important to say I have something that I want
Speaker 6: to be able to talk to you about, like our
Speaker 6: intimacy style. And again, the book is such a great
Speaker 6: catalyst for these conversations because you're saying, this is what
Speaker 6: this expert is saying, what do you think? How are
Speaker 6: we measuring up? You don't have to accuse, you don't
Speaker 6: have to criticize, You just bring up the conversation. You know,
Speaker 6: I use the five Old languages all the time in
Speaker 6: my practice. It is such a great way to just
Speaker 6: get that conversation started. Emotional intimacy that otherwise couples may
Speaker 6: not want to talk about because it may come up
Speaker 6: as a criticism. It's the same thing with the four
Speaker 6: intimacy styles, talking about how rounded out you are or
Speaker 6: how you need to kind of tweak things to be
Speaker 6: rounded out, there's no criticism.
Speaker 2: Well, I am so excited to read the four Intimacy
Speaker 2: Styles and everyone that's listening go get your book. And
Speaker 2: where else can our listeners find you?
Speaker 6: Yeah, everything on line is doctor Diviana dot com. Just
Speaker 6: spell it out, Doctor Vivianna dot com on for Intimacy
Speaker 6: Styles dot com is where you can find the three
Speaker 6: order for the book. I'm really excited to talk about
Speaker 6: sex in a way that people can all people can
Speaker 6: feel like it's it's something that they can talk about
Speaker 6: in a way that isn't taboo. It's you know, it's
Speaker 6: really appropriate for what we're all trying to do, which
Speaker 6: is just be in love and be in love forever
Speaker 6: in connection.
Speaker 2: I love it. Thank you so much for coming on
Speaker 2: the show. We'll be back with more sex talk. Bye girl,
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. That was awesome. Appreciate you. Okay, Okay, Mark,
Speaker 2: let's get our mind out of the bedroom, although it's
Speaker 2: really fun to be there. But we have any emails.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and these might take you back into the bedroom.
Speaker 5: It goes Caitlin and some of.
Speaker 1: These are a little heavy, but Caitlin asks aside from well, okay,
Speaker 1: so it's time to get personal Chatta. Aside from Mike's
Speaker 1: obvious infidelity, were there other issues in the relationship.
Speaker 5: Maybe one's not as big and glaring.
Speaker 1: Is a problem that you looked past for a long
Speaker 1: time for the sake of having your family unit and
Speaker 1: having a partner, where they are red flags present in
Speaker 1: addition to the sex addiction aspect.
Speaker 2: You know, I thought I was like helping other people
Speaker 2: with these emails.
Speaker 3: This is just like, is this uncomfortable? Now You're I'm
Speaker 3: consortable just saying.
Speaker 2: You know, there there is a thing called the pros
Speaker 2: and cons list that you do when you are I
Speaker 2: think in high school or middle school, maybe now these days,
Speaker 2: or maybe that's just aging me because maybe kids don't
Speaker 2: do pros and cons anymore.
Speaker 3: I think they did.
Speaker 2: Did you ever do a pros and cons list? But
Speaker 2: then you broke up with someone, You're like, here's the
Speaker 2: pros for sure?
Speaker 1: Oh? I think I don't think that's something that goes
Speaker 1: away with generations.
Speaker 2: Oh you don't think so?
Speaker 1: No, I don't think so. Okay, I mean they're probably
Speaker 1: doing it in the notes app on their photo or something.
Speaker 2: But people shall make that list, Like you know, I
Speaker 2: still like pull out the paper, still like here's my notebook.
Speaker 2: If I was just talking to my buddy Justin Sylvester
Speaker 2: about this on his podcast, and I think at the
Speaker 2: end of the day, and again, this is something Catherine,
Speaker 2: when I was having my my mental breakdown on Laurel
Speaker 2: Canyon a few weeks ago in la you put the
Speaker 2: cheating and infidelity aside, there's a list of other things
Speaker 2: that are still very that are not acceptable as a husband,
Speaker 2: like lying and some the characteristics. I'll say, there's characteristics
Speaker 2: that were very hard to overlook that just wasn't getting better.
Speaker 2: And I think again cheating aside, it's very hard when
Speaker 2: you look at the characteristics of Okay, this is you know,
Speaker 2: this person is has a history of lying, has a
Speaker 2: you know, so yes, there there were that was what really,
Speaker 2: at the end of the day helps me sleep at
Speaker 2: night knowing that because of these some of these certain
Speaker 2: characteristics and my characteristics that we just don't gel well
Speaker 2: together in the end of the day. Yes, how's that answer?
Speaker 5: Very dipresab I thought it was great. Do you fear
Speaker 5: that you are drawn to people who have these characteristics?
Speaker 2: So my issue is I am drawn to people that
Speaker 2: will never fully love me because it's something that I
Speaker 2: I always want, and for some reason, I go to
Speaker 2: the people that I know deep down can never love
Speaker 2: me the way that I want to be loved. And
Speaker 2: so my battle is I want to show and prove
Speaker 2: that I'm lovable and worthy enough and try to win
Speaker 2: that person. That's my issue, and that's something you're working on, Yes,
Speaker 2: very hard with a therapist. Yeah, with you know who
Speaker 2: you guys talked to last week, Amy or a few
Speaker 2: weeks ago, Ama, Alexander. Yeah, that's that's definitely because I
Speaker 2: look back. I I have this journal from back from
Speaker 2: two thousand and two, and I look back and I'm like,
Speaker 2: why did I stay in that abusive relationship? Why did
Speaker 2: I stay in this situation when this person was cheating?
Speaker 2: Why did I? And it's like, if I loved myself enough,
Speaker 2: I would have never stayed after Mike che had done
Speaker 2: me a month into our relationship, ever, never, because I
Speaker 2: would have known my worth. I would have known that
Speaker 2: I was good. I did not deserve that, that I
Speaker 2: was good enough that I didn't need his his actions
Speaker 2: to confirm that I'm enough. And that's where I want
Speaker 2: to be in my next relationship, where I know my
Speaker 2: worth so much that I will not settle for a
Speaker 2: second for what I know. And now again, nobody's perfect.
Speaker 2: I'm not perfect. Still a lot of stuff I'm gonna
Speaker 2: have to work on in the next relationship. But again
Speaker 2: it comes down to the characteristics of someone and how
Speaker 2: they treat you, and not staying with someone that doesn't
Speaker 2: fill your.
Speaker 1: Cup all right, as Devon Franklin says, filled cups, filled
Speaker 1: cups exactly.
Speaker 5: This is from Morgan and it's even heavier.
Speaker 2: Okay, great.
Speaker 1: My question, unfortunately revolves around a painful part of your past,
Speaker 1: so apologies, miscarriage and trying to conceive. My husband and
Speaker 1: I miscarried in January of twenty twenty decided to try
Speaker 1: again right away.
Speaker 5: Since then, we've been unable to conceive. When we've found
Speaker 5: out that.
Speaker 1: I have endometriosis, we're about to go into our fifth
Speaker 1: IUI attempt, and I have decided that IVF is not
Speaker 1: an option for us. My question, I guess, is when
Speaker 1: do you give up and accept the fact that it
Speaker 1: just might not happen. I've been struggling with this, but
Speaker 1: the ups and downs of getting excited and hopeful and
Speaker 1: then crushed when the next period comes is just taking
Speaker 1: a huge toll on me. I better off getting away
Speaker 1: from all of that heartache and moving on and just
Speaker 1: being happy with my life and wonderful husband.
Speaker 5: Or should we keep trying for children.
Speaker 2: I mean, it clearly sounds it's something. First of all,
Speaker 2: sorry you have to go through all that if it's
Speaker 2: obviously your love and your desire to be a mom
Speaker 2: is very present because you're taking those steps. And I
Speaker 2: know you said that IVF isn't for you, I would
Speaker 2: just I don't know anything honestly about endemetriosis, but I
Speaker 2: would just say, even though you say IVF isn't for you,
Speaker 2: maybe look into it just a little bit more. I
Speaker 2: don't know if again I don't know, like if you
Speaker 2: can't do endemetriosis with IVF, I'm not really sure. But
Speaker 2: iuis are not as effective as IVF, and again I
Speaker 2: know how expensive it can be and all those things.
Speaker 2: But I think when your love and your desire to
Speaker 2: have that family for me personally, I would want to
Speaker 2: do everything I poss simply could to say, okay, I've
Speaker 2: now done everything I could, which is as aggressive as
Speaker 2: IVF is as aggressive as okay, and demetriosis, how can
Speaker 2: we as you know, is there a way that we
Speaker 2: could maybe save money for surrogacy or adoption. That to
Speaker 2: me is when and if all those things those boxes were,
Speaker 2: then you know, okay, we tried it, we tried it,
Speaker 2: we can't we physically can't afford it, or we you know,
Speaker 2: check check, check check. That is then when it says okay,
Speaker 2: God like, maybe this wasn't the plan, and that is
Speaker 2: when I could walk away. But I would for me personally,
Speaker 2: I would have to check off all those boxes.
Speaker 3: I would too, and I never had to go through that, thankfully.
Speaker 3: But did you buy.
Speaker 2: UI or I went straight to IVF because I heard
Speaker 2: that it was more right.
Speaker 3: That's what Yeah, that's what I've heard. But I would
Speaker 3: do the same.
Speaker 4: I would try everything, all boxes until there was you know,
Speaker 4: I mean, you can't leave yourself no money, but you know,
Speaker 4: I would try everything to be a.
Speaker 1: Mom, Heather says, Hi Janna Mark and Easton ah Well,
Speaker 1: listening to the podcast today, I had a thought about
Speaker 1: something that hasn't really been touched on.
Speaker 5: My question is mostly for the boys.
Speaker 1: Yeah, out of the news of Jane's divorce hit you,
Speaker 1: did you suspect it would one day come to this
Speaker 1: or were you completely blown away.
Speaker 3: Oh.
Speaker 2: I love getting Mark and Easton and on this. This
Speaker 2: is great. I love how Easton just like popped into
Speaker 2: It's like I'm here. But this is a great question though,
Speaker 2: because you know, we were a family, all of us together,
Speaker 2: So I am, yeah, I'm curious to know that too.
Speaker 2: Thanks for the question.
Speaker 1: I I'll go first only because I was widely quoted
Speaker 1: in a number of publications about this.
Speaker 2: Yes, you were. We never talked about that, but yes.
Speaker 5: It was weird. It was so.
Speaker 2: Weird because I feel like you've been quoted before, haven't
Speaker 2: you at Seacrest.
Speaker 1: I mean maybe at some point, but it was still
Speaker 1: it still kind of came out of nowhere, and I
Speaker 1: didn't see it coming. I was like, hey, that's my name.
Speaker 1: It's very It's always odd to see your name in
Speaker 1: US weekly, and when you're me, you know, when you're you, you're.
Speaker 5: Probably used to it.
Speaker 1: But anyway, I was totally blown away, and I acknowledged
Speaker 1: in the article that maybe that makes me stupid, but
Speaker 1: I said, on this very show, I said to you two,
Speaker 1: I said, I can't guarantee that you're going to be
Speaker 1: together forever, but I am sure.
Speaker 5: I'm convinced that Mike will not stray again.
Speaker 1: I had the wolf pulled over my eyes, just like
Speaker 1: everybody else did, because I was convinced that he had
Speaker 1: done the work and was in a really good place.
Speaker 1: So when I heard that things had gone super sold
Speaker 1: for you guys and this may be the end, I'm
Speaker 1: so stupid. I thought something else has happened, something else.
Speaker 5: Has gone wrong. It can't be that.
Speaker 1: It's anything but that, And of course that's the obvious thing,
Speaker 1: and of course that's what it was. So yes, I
Speaker 1: was absolutely shocked by that.
Speaker 8: Yes, I mean I feel the same way. I really.
Speaker 9: I mean, with all due respect, I have seen Jena,
Speaker 9: I've seen you and Mike fight more than I think
Speaker 9: anyone else in my life.
Speaker 8: I've been there, like intimately for a lot of it.
Speaker 9: But I really, I really, I was convinced that he
Speaker 9: had beaten that part of his challenges.
Speaker 8: I really thought that if you guys.
Speaker 9: Were going to split out, what was going to be
Speaker 9: for uh, I don't know, I mean, he was I know,
Speaker 9: he spent a lot of money on those app games,
Speaker 9: Like I thought it was gonna be something like that.
Speaker 8: I really didn't think, I don't know, I was I.
Speaker 9: Was totally blindsided by that, and it it really I
Speaker 9: don't know, I just I felt like as a child
Speaker 9: of divorce, like I I, it brought back a lot
Speaker 9: of similar feelings because I was like so conflicted about
Speaker 9: this person that I'd become close to and that I
Speaker 9: thought I knew, and then this, you know, I I
Speaker 9: was discovering things I didn't know and and severity I
Speaker 9: wasn't really aware of. And uh, I don't know, it's
Speaker 9: a it's a really it's a really weird feeling to have,
Speaker 9: but I was.
Speaker 8: I was definitely blindsided by.
Speaker 2: That, which makes me feel a little less crazy because honestly,
Speaker 2: like when I did see the thing mark when you
Speaker 2: quoted that, I was just like, oh, he's just he's
Speaker 2: lying about that, Like of course he saw it. Like
Speaker 2: you know, we fought all the time, and you know,
Speaker 2: you know I was snippy at times or I was
Speaker 2: this or you know, and but it makes me feel like, okay,
Speaker 2: like he was good, Like he had us all kind
Speaker 2: of fooled. And so that was where I'm like, because
Speaker 2: I it just makes me feel like I'm not as
Speaker 2: crazy as I thought I was.
Speaker 1: I feel like the snippiness and such was always justified
Speaker 1: from the previous behavior, Like, I know, that's how difficult
Speaker 1: that is to get over and regain the trust. So
Speaker 1: I totally understood that. I just felt like, so I
Speaker 1: never felt like that was inappropriate. I just felt like,
Speaker 1: you tw were moving in a really good direction. And
Speaker 1: I also think, and I don't know Mike well enough,
Speaker 1: and it would be inappropriate for me to say this
Speaker 1: about him, So I just speak generally, when a person
Speaker 1: lies so deeply it became comes like it becomes real
Speaker 1: to them. It seems like it becomes and then then
Speaker 1: they're really good at it because when it becomes their
Speaker 1: own reality, it's easy to sell it to friends, coworkers, family, whoever,
Speaker 1: because they're just like, it's like they're not playing a
Speaker 1: role anymore. They've become that fake PERSONA.
Speaker 5: It's scary.
Speaker 2: And that's a my therapist I say, she's like, that's
Speaker 2: a that's a very scary thing when you can lie
Speaker 2: that deep and that and convince that many people. And yeah,
Speaker 2: I think, and that's that's the hardest part, because I mean,
Speaker 2: like I was, yeah, I mean the book, I mean,
Speaker 2: all of it is just it was like the biggest
Speaker 2: kind of blindsided betrayal lie and it's it's still hard
Speaker 2: to sit with. But I mean, Catherine, I think, has
Speaker 2: a very opposite opinion.
Speaker 4: Well, I will say I think everybody. I think everybody
Speaker 4: thought y'all were really good. Yeah, and me included, I
Speaker 4: did think y'all were really good, minus a few little.
Speaker 2: Things, even the last fifteen months.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I thought y'all were really good.
Speaker 2: Like there's a few things that came up.
Speaker 3: With Well, there were definitely a few things that were
Speaker 3: on the phone.
Speaker 2: What was like someone downloaded or what that.
Speaker 4: Yes, there were several things, and then just like little
Speaker 4: things that we saw in the past, his behavior would
Speaker 4: kind of allude to things going on. So I think
Speaker 4: I think everybody thought you were good. I thought y'all
Speaker 4: were really good. I think, you know, putting out the book,
Speaker 4: about to work on another book. I mean, I wanted
Speaker 4: to think that everything was good. But I just had
Speaker 4: a very hard time believing him, just to be completely honest,
Speaker 4: you know. I mean, my mom was a big liar,
Speaker 4: you know, and so I recognized liars, and I just
Speaker 4: always had hard time believing him. I Mean, I loved him,
Speaker 4: you know, and I wanted to believe him, and I
Speaker 4: wanted to believe that y'all could really work through this
Speaker 4: and make it work.
Speaker 2: But ultimately saw so ultimately I was.
Speaker 4: Wondering when the other shit would drop for sure, sadly,
Speaker 4: I mean, I hate to say that, but that's the truth.
Speaker 1: Did you guys pull the book or did the book
Speaker 1: get a boost in sales out of curiosity or did
Speaker 1: it just kind of tank?
Speaker 5: Like I'm just curious.
Speaker 2: I have no idea, honestly, I haven't even asked. But we,
Speaker 2: like two weeks before finding out everything, we had gotten
Speaker 2: another book deal about trust. Wow, the book was going
Speaker 2: to be about trust.
Speaker 4: I mean we'd had a call about it like a
Speaker 4: week if not less about like like call about trust.
Speaker 2: Can I imagine? Like, oh my god, Like I mean,
Speaker 2: first of all, how could we even be on that call? Like,
Speaker 2: but I mean, what a thank God? Because I already
Speaker 2: feel so Yeah, but again the first book, I'm my
Speaker 2: words were very true and my experiences were true and yeah,
Speaker 2: but yeah, total, that's it's tough. It's very and it's
Speaker 2: very hard now to not be just so angry about
Speaker 2: just all of it. But angry is not gonna it's
Speaker 2: just not good for anybody.
Speaker 5: No, But it's understandable.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just yeah, yeah, just yeah, just be honest
Speaker 2: everybody out there, can you just tell the truth and
Speaker 2: just yeah, that's all blot all, I got all I got.
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, I mean I can't even imagine, like people, Hey,
Speaker 2: the end of the day, I know what I get
Speaker 2: to tell my kids when we have a very grown
Speaker 2: up conversation, and I'll be proud of what I what
Speaker 2: I get to tell them.
Speaker 5: That's gonna be interesting.
Speaker 1: Because my parents split up when I was like ten
Speaker 1: and they got back together again after like six months.
Speaker 1: I don't have the ability to google why that all
Speaker 1: went down and how it went like, that's all going
Speaker 1: to be out there, and that's that's interesting. That's just
Speaker 1: a whole new level of something like this. But like
Speaker 1: you say, you know, the side of your streets clean
Speaker 1: if that's the expression.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I wish that they didn't have to, you know,
Speaker 2: And a lot of people think that I was the
Speaker 2: reason why it was out there, and I'm like, let
Speaker 2: us remind everyone. He came on the podcast to talk
Speaker 2: about it. I didn't force him. He was the one
Speaker 2: that I was like, oh, wow, we're going to talk
Speaker 2: about this, like we even have a recording of that,
Speaker 2: going like you want to talk about this? So that
Speaker 2: was not my decision. I mean, like, again, it came
Speaker 2: out in US Weekly, that was already out there. Did
Speaker 2: I want to talk about it? Sure, I would have
Speaker 2: loved to, But I was never forcing him telling him
Speaker 2: to talk about it. So yeah, because he came on
Speaker 2: as a guest, and I was like, all right, I
Speaker 2: guess he's good to talk about it. Okay, we're going there.
Speaker 2: And from there, I mean, you know, that's when we
Speaker 2: continue to speak on it. And looking back, I think
Speaker 2: that was the you know, that was he had pressure
Speaker 2: around that and him, you know, dealing with that was
Speaker 2: was hard. Always being the bad guy, And what I
Speaker 2: say to that is just don't keep messing.
Speaker 4: Up like people made you out to be a bad guy.
Speaker 4: The bad guy a lot of it, which was very
Speaker 4: hard to sit and watch. If I'm you know, people's
Speaker 4: comments coming after you a lot. He wasn't always the
Speaker 4: bad guy. I mean, I understand that point of view, and.
Speaker 2: It's mostly watch this or do that too, controlling blah
Speaker 2: blah blah.
Speaker 4: They were coming after you too, So I'm just saying
Speaker 4: it wasn't just him, and I didn't cheat.
Speaker 1: That's so interesting though, that he always complained about being
Speaker 1: the bad guy, and he never stopped doing the things
Speaker 1: that made him.
Speaker 5: A bad guys.
Speaker 1: Like, it's like, people keep calling me a criminal as
Speaker 1: you're walking out of the bank with bags of money
Speaker 1: in each hand.
Speaker 3: Isn't that the like what's the saying?
Speaker 4: Like if you do something over and over, it's like
Speaker 4: insanity or something like that.
Speaker 3: Just you stop, just stop.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know, hopefully he's healthy now for the
Speaker 2: kid's sake. So AnyWho, let's talk about something else. Back
Speaker 2: to Oh good, see now I got captain. Back to
Speaker 2: that's great. I'd like to go have some right now.
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, gracious, Well, guys, I think that's a show.
Speaker 2: I think I'm talked out. We're at the lake right now,
Speaker 2: so I want to get back out there.
Speaker 3: I love you, guys,