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Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.

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Speaker 2: So Catherine, you're gonna kill me? Oh no, like kill me.

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Speaker 3: But it's scared.

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Speaker 2: So this episode is about sex.

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Speaker 3: I'm so mad at you. Well, have fun hosting by yourself.

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Speaker 3: I'm just kidding.

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Speaker 2: Well, we have doctor Vivienna coming on. She's actually a

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Speaker 2: sex expert. And you know, when we were discussing you

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Speaker 2: coming on the podcast, You're like, I can come today,

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Speaker 2: and I was like great. I was like I would

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Speaker 2: love for you too, because you know, sex just isn't

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Speaker 2: your favorite topic in the world.

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Speaker 3: Not in front of like, however many people listen to.

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Speaker 2: This, it's in front of Okay, Okay, it's right, you're right,

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Speaker 2: you're right, and so, but it just so happened. You're like,

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Speaker 2: but I have to be out from this time to

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Speaker 2: this time, and I'm like, oh, I was like, it's

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Speaker 2: like you somewhat knew that, Like you like that you

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Speaker 2: had to be unavailable from like the time that she

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Speaker 2: was able to be on because that's how much she

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Speaker 2: loathed talking about sex.

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Speaker 4: Thank god.

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Speaker 2: Where do you think that comes from? Is it like

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Speaker 2: a like a taboo thing from like.

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Speaker 3: Probably from childhood?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we didn't talk about it a lot, very like

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Speaker 4: southern Baptist Christian family, like it just wasn't We didn't

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Speaker 4: talk about a whole lot, but definitely not sex.

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Speaker 2: So what do you how do you think you'll do

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Speaker 2: that with the kids then, so that way it's not

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Speaker 2: like the you know that kind of we've.

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Speaker 4: Actually talked about it a lot, you have, Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 4: I've already had like a full conversation with my nine

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Speaker 4: year old.

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Speaker 3: Now the nine yeah, hey, they say eight is too late. No, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I know what.

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Speaker 2: I didn't even know it sex was until like, well,

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Speaker 2: yeah the freshman year school.

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Speaker 4: Well I definitely knew before that, but I heard from

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Speaker 4: everybody else, not you know, my family.

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Speaker 2: How old were you when you honestly found out about sex?

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Speaker 2: I heard about sex.

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Speaker 3: I think I was like eleven, probably fourth or fifth grade.

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Speaker 2: I mean we talked. Grade is when they teach you

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Speaker 2: about sperm and stuff, right, isn't that word?

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Speaker 3: Like I just don't think my kids.

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Speaker 2: There was a video we had to watch where it's

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Speaker 2: like you saw sperm like this little like floaty thing,

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Speaker 2: and then it talked about like our periods, and then

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Speaker 2: I just remember being like this sucks. But that was

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Speaker 2: fifth grade and then never spoke about it again.

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Speaker 3: So what did your parents talk to you about it?

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Speaker 2: Not once?

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Speaker 4: So you just went the opposite way. You love to

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Speaker 4: talk about it and I hate to talk about.

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Speaker 2: It just you know, but yeah, so, I mean, they

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Speaker 2: honestly say eight is too late.

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Speaker 4: Well, the problem is is that when people start talking

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Speaker 4: so like, Okay, my twelve year old is a boy.

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Speaker 4: My husband had that conversation. But I knew one of

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Speaker 4: his best friends, when he was probably about nine, had

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Speaker 4: already had that conversation with his parents, had been asking

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Speaker 4: questions about other stuff.

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Speaker 2: And what like kissing, touching penis is the giants.

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Speaker 4: Like rape, Like he had asked a question about rape,

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Speaker 4: I know, at nine, and so I was very concerned

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Speaker 4: that he was going to then have the conversation with Cayden.

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Speaker 4: So I had Nick have that conversation. I don't know

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Speaker 4: a whole lot about how that conversation went.

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Speaker 2: You didn't ask Nick for work, but of course you.

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Speaker 4: Know he had a couple of Burmans before. No, so

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Speaker 4: they've had that conversation. I left, and Kayden and I

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Speaker 4: have talked about it also.

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Speaker 2: Like what do you talk about? That's the thing, like,

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Speaker 2: like what's like a cause I'm like, so I don't

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Speaker 2: even know. I'm like, well you the vagina.

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Speaker 4: Well, here's the thing. It depends on the kid. Like

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Speaker 4: Kayden doesn't ask questions. He just sat there, so I

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Speaker 4: think it was extremely uncomfortable for Nick, and he talks

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Speaker 4: about stuff all the time. Yeah, any though, my nine

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Speaker 4: year old she asked questions, so it's actually easy, like

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Speaker 4: what kind of questions, Like, well, we started we're sharing

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Speaker 4: about periods. We started with periods, and then we walked

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Speaker 4: about tampons and how they and then you move on

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Speaker 4: and it's like, okay, have you heard of sex. Well

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Speaker 4: I've heard of it, but I don't know what it is.

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Speaker 4: It's like, okay, well that's where a penis. And then

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Speaker 4: you just but she kept asking questions, so it just

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Speaker 4: led to it. So we had a full on conversation.

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Speaker 2: Did she ask like why do people do that? Because

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Speaker 2: like that would be a question I would ask like

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Speaker 2: why do why does a penis in a vagina get together?

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Speaker 3: I mean I think she did.

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Speaker 2: I think, what do you say? Like it just feels good?

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Speaker 4: I don't remember, and I had it like I was

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Speaker 4: so proud of myself.

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Speaker 3: But having said that, I still don't enjoy it.

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Speaker 2: Having it and talking about it.

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Speaker 1: Thanks, you know, mark the rule of thumbs kind of

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Speaker 1: if they're asking questions about it, it's time to talk

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Speaker 1: about it, and you can kind of gauge by their

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Speaker 1: questions how deep you should go into it.

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Speaker 2: What do you think about the eight is too late?

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Speaker 5: It depends on what they're asking.

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Speaker 1: If they're not asking anything that, I'm not sure I

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Speaker 1: would just kind of confront them with it before eight

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Speaker 1: years old.

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Speaker 5: I think I would kind of let them guide me.

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Speaker 5: Here's my rebuttal passive style. I'm a little passive.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, yes, I can be the rebuttal to that

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Speaker 4: is like my twelve year old son Is would not

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Speaker 4: probably ever ask a question.

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Speaker 3: He would just let it go. So I don't know

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Speaker 3: that's hard.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I think what like I never got the

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Speaker 1: talk from my parents, and they might dispute that, but

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Speaker 1: I don't remember ever getting it. I remember learning it

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Speaker 1: in fifth grade in school and going to my friends.

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Speaker 5: Like, did you guys hear that the penis goes into did.

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Speaker 6: You know that?

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Speaker 5: Yeah? Yeah, we all knew that.

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Speaker 4: I'm like, oh man, we wanted to do the same

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Speaker 4: video last one on sex, and that's the problem though,

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Speaker 4: when you asked all your friends, they already all knew.

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Speaker 3: And that was fifth grade.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, my daughter's going into fourth It might have been,

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Speaker 4: but she was the one with a million questions and

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Speaker 4: it just led to a question to a question to it.

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Speaker 4: So it honestly was easy because it just I just

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Speaker 4: had to answer them. But so she already knew a

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Speaker 4: good bit.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry. The fact that Mark just said I learned

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Speaker 2: that Santa Claus wasn't real, that a penis that goes

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Speaker 2: into a vagina was probably the best thing I've heard

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Speaker 2: this Monday.

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Speaker 5: That was the last one on both of those of

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Speaker 5: all my friends.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's going to be the same, mean the Santa

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Speaker 2: Claus thing, that's going to be. How old were you?

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Speaker 2: I think I was actually probably in fifth grade.

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Speaker 3: I don't remember. I just kind of pretended.

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Speaker 1: Forever I was really late because one year, some friends

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Speaker 1: of my parents stopped by on Christmas Eve after I

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Speaker 1: had gone to bed, and they had just been at

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Speaker 1: a Christmas party, so they were a dressed as Santa

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Speaker 1: and Missus Claws in full costume. So the next morning

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Speaker 1: my parents showed me a photo they took in our

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Speaker 1: living room with Santa and Missus Clause.

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Speaker 5: So as far as I was concerned, this was proof.

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Speaker 1: Nobody could tell me Otherwise I would never be convinced

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Speaker 1: because I had photographic evidence.

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Speaker 2: That is the cutest thing ever.

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Speaker 6: Though.

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Speaker 2: I love that. I mean, and I think Santa Claus

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Speaker 2: and you know, mister Clause, like Missus and mister Clause.

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Speaker 2: I think they had sex, you.

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Speaker 3: Know, although they did.

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Speaker 2: Did they have babies?

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Speaker 3: No, there's not little there's just the hells.

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Speaker 2: But I don't think hilarious Doctor Vivianna, who's coming on?

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Speaker 2: She has these four uh different I think it's I

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Speaker 2: think it's four intimacy styles.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, good thing I gotta get. I just it's I

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Speaker 3: don't know.

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Speaker 2: Do you just not enjoy it?

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Speaker 4: It just makes me uncomfortable to talk about I don't

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Speaker 4: know why.

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Speaker 3: It's like our rule no talking.

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Speaker 2: I'm just kidding. Yeah, it's fine, it's fine, all right, Well, Catherine,

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Speaker 2: I know you don't want to talk about it. I

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Speaker 2: won't talk about it anymore. I just I like sex.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, let's talk about it.

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Speaker 2: I do. I think it's healthy. But that's but I'm

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Speaker 2: not saying it's not not healthy. Like if that's something

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Speaker 2: that you don't like to talk about We don't have

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Speaker 2: to talk about it. You know, I'll keep pushing you,

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Speaker 2: but I know you will.

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Speaker 3: I'll get there and you don't.

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Speaker 2: I mean again, like some people, I'm not comfortable with

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Speaker 2: what am I not comfortable with confrontation? Sure, so I'm

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Speaker 2: not comfortable with that. I don't like talking about confrontation.

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Speaker 2: I usually just cry or or delete my number. That's

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Speaker 2: moving to a different country. Hate confrontation. So yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 2: we all are uncomfortable with different things. So I love

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Speaker 2: you and I appreciate you. Know, go have your meeting.

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Speaker 2: Pam's going to hop in for you. Thanks, but I'd

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Speaker 2: love to have you back for some emails at the

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Speaker 2: end of the show. Okay, because you have you are

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Speaker 2: good with everything else but sex.

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Speaker 3: Okay, thanks, we'll.

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Speaker 2: Be back butt sex.

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Speaker 3: That's such a guy.

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Speaker 2: So we have doctor Vivianna Coles coming on. She has

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Speaker 2: a new book out called The Four Intimacy Styles, which

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Speaker 2: I have. I don't know anything about that, do you, Pam?

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Speaker 2: I don't know anything. I would love to know because

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Speaker 2: when I hear like, I'm like, there's different styles, Like,

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Speaker 2: isn't intimacy just intimacy? Like you think right, right, I mean,

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Speaker 2: but now you know reading that, it's like, well, I mean,

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Speaker 2: just like everybody's different, I'm sure they're right. I love language. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I feel like it's one of those things too where

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Speaker 2: when you know, you think about like love languages and

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Speaker 2: intimacy and all that, it's intimacy, isn't just sex. But

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Speaker 2: for a long time, like I thought that sex was intimacy.

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Speaker 7: And if you weren't having sex like with your partner

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Speaker 7: or you know, then like something was wrong.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's like it has to be wrong, right,

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Speaker 2: Like clearly we're not intimate, and isn't being intimate having sex?

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Speaker 2: Like what ways do you like feel like what fills

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Speaker 2: your intimacy cup? I mean I'm kind of the same

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Speaker 2: way two girls just want to have sex.

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Speaker 7: Well, I mean for me, it's like that's the like

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Speaker 7: the common bond, especially when you're married and you have

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Speaker 7: these kids and you're like running around and can you

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Speaker 7: can easily turn into just like co parenting and you know,

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Speaker 7: like partnerships and parenting instead of like really you know,

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Speaker 7: focusing like on your relationship. So I feel like, you know,

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Speaker 7: then that brings that relationship, that more intimate relationship right,

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Speaker 7: you know.

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Speaker 2: That was always like such a struggle because that is

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Speaker 2: my thing, Like that's in our I remember our couples

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Speaker 2: therapist is always like okay, like what other ways can

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Speaker 2: can you find intimacy? And I'm just like, but can't

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Speaker 2: it just be sex too? Like like I I enjoy it,

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Speaker 2: like I wanna I would like to have, but there's

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Speaker 2: I think it's you know, also like handholding and those things.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think I've always been like fearful, like

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Speaker 2: you know when like the sex stops or isn't there

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Speaker 2: as like much as it was, is the relationship stopping?

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Speaker 2: Oh it's a good question. Well, doctor Vivianna is in

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Speaker 2: the waiting room, s let's bringer in and ask her.

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Speaker 2: That's a really good question. Okay, So we were just

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Speaker 2: talking about obviously intimacy and you have there's four different styles,

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Speaker 2: so we're dying to know what are those four different styles.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: So in my book The Four Intimacy Styles, I go

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Speaker 6: into great detail about how important it is to not

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Speaker 6: just know what your own intimacy style is, but how

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Speaker 6: to round it out so you can have that lasting

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Speaker 6: physical connection with a partner, which is super important. So

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Speaker 6: they're bonding release, giving, and responsiveness, and all four of

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Speaker 6: them are valid, all four of them are necessary. And

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Speaker 6: I think that what a lot of people don't realize

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Speaker 6: is that they might think that bonding is the ultimate

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Speaker 6: way to experience intimacy and sexuality.

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Speaker 2: But you mean as bonding sex? No bonding is because

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Speaker 2: I didn't hear sex and that, I'm like, a sex is, Like,

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Speaker 2: isn't that Like we're just saying like that's our number one?

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Speaker 2: I'm like, what, so which one? Which one is that?

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Speaker 6: So I'm only talking about sexuality here. Emotional intimacy. There's

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Speaker 6: so much information about there out there about it, but

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Speaker 6: physical intimacy is what I'm all about in this book.

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Speaker 6: And so bonding is a type of intimacy style. So

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Speaker 6: you might feel that in order to feel physically connected

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Speaker 6: to somebody, you have to feel emotionally connected to them,

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Speaker 6: and you do that through experiencing sexuality with them, So

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Speaker 6: that creates that bonding. And then giving is when you're

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Speaker 6: that person who says, if you're okay, I'm okay, you're

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Speaker 6: experiencing pleasure because of something that I'm doing. Oh my gosh,

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Speaker 6: I feel so close to you, I feel so connected

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Speaker 6: to you. And then release is whenever somebody says, I

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Speaker 6: really just want to get off, Yeah, and in order

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Speaker 6: to really feel connected to you, I need to get off.

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Speaker 6: And then we have responsiveness and people who say, you

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Speaker 6: know what, I'm not really thinking about sex right now,

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Speaker 6: but now that we're kind of into it, I'm into

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Speaker 6: it and I feel close to you and maybe we

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Speaker 6: can do it again soon. But they're not the ones

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Speaker 6: experiencing that spontaneous desire that a lot of people think

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Speaker 6: should be happening. You know, it doesn't happen to everyone. Actually,

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Speaker 6: very few people experience spontaneous desire that makes them them

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Speaker 6: want to motivate. You know, their partners have sex. So

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Speaker 6: you need to have all four if you're going to

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Speaker 6: be with someone forever and be getting lucky.

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Speaker 2: Interesting because what happens if you don't have that because

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Speaker 2: you were just asking what was your question and you

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Speaker 2: basically said, like, if you don't have that.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, it then like what happens to the relationship, Like

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Speaker 7: it's I feel like, you know, sometimes when the sex

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Speaker 7: stops and isn't as much as you know it was

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Speaker 7: maybe before, Like then yeah, like I would just get

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Speaker 7: scared because of what happens to the relationship, then.

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Speaker 6: Well, a lot of people are experiencing it right now.

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Speaker 6: You feel like this dullness, this grayness that comes across

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Speaker 6: all of the good times. So you might be experiencing

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Speaker 6: that French to you know, that feeling of like you're

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Speaker 6: my content b and I love you for that. But

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Speaker 6: if you don't have the physical connection and you're not

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Speaker 6: experiencing consistent, satisfying physical intimacy and a relationship no matter

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Speaker 6: what it chooses to look like, you're going to end

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Speaker 6: up either together but really dissatisfied and possibly even looking elsewhere,

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Speaker 6: or you're going to end up feeling like physically you're

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Speaker 6: you're you know, things will start atrophy, You'll start to

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Speaker 6: experience depression. It can really be something that you know,

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Speaker 6: emotionally drags you down, physically drags you down, and then

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Speaker 6: of course a lot of people will just leave their partners.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I remember, oh, in my past relationship

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Speaker 2: like that's it was just one of those things where

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Speaker 2: I'm like I wanted it more than like my partner,

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Speaker 2: and it was very hard because it's like I didn't

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Speaker 2: feel like it was asking for a lot, but I'm like,

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Speaker 2: I'm happier when we do it makes it even if

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Speaker 2: I didn't get off, it was just that connection. Is

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Speaker 2: that that's like what I like need, That's all I needed.

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Speaker 2: But firstly, I.

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Speaker 6: Think for a lot of people, they don't realize that

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Speaker 6: most people sign up for monogamy right, and so they're

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Speaker 6: signing up for this. You are the only person that

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Speaker 6: I can do this with. I can tell everybody I

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Speaker 6: love them, I can kiss my dog, my doctor will

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Speaker 6: see me naked, I'll you know, maybe on a girl's chip,

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Speaker 6: share a bed with someone. This is that one thing

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Speaker 6: that you're only expected to do with your partner, and

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Speaker 6: if it's not happening, there is going to be a

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Speaker 6: feeling of something missing. And like you said, it doesn't

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Speaker 6: always have to look one way. And that's why I

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Speaker 6: think it's so important to know your intimacy style and

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Speaker 6: to know how to round it out, which is I

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Speaker 6: truly believe the key to making sure that it's lasting,

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Speaker 6: because we all want, you know, when we get married

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Speaker 6: or we decide to partner up with someone for a

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Speaker 6: really long time, we are truly thinking we're going to

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Speaker 6: have this intimate connection both emotionally and physically forever, but

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Speaker 6: we don't know how to do that, and I've been

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Speaker 6: seeing client since two thousand and three. I finally was like,

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Speaker 6: you know, I got to get this book out and

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Speaker 6: just tell people this is what it takes to be

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Speaker 6: physically connected forever, because nobody wants to get divorced. Nobody

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Speaker 6: wants to break up. Nobody wants to have that investment

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Speaker 6: and then have this physical connection, you know, dissipate or

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Speaker 6: just not be satisfying, and then that's the reason why

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Speaker 6: they end up divorcing. The other thing is that I

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Speaker 6: think in America we judge people for wanting to have

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Speaker 6: sex be a really prominent part of our relationships. It's

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Speaker 6: almost like, well, that's that's not a good enough reason

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Speaker 6: to be the satisfied. Is that y'all are having sex. No,

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Speaker 6: it's a really good reason. It's a valid reason, and

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Speaker 6: it's not you know a lot of people say infidelity, abuse,

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Speaker 6: not caring for children, all of those things are good

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Speaker 6: reasons to leave someone. Well, so is not having this

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Speaker 6: sexually fulfilling life.

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Speaker 2: What happens or what do you say to the people that,

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Speaker 2: like a therapist will say, let's take sex off the table.

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Speaker 6: I think it's important to take sex off the table.

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Speaker 6: But that's not physical intimacy. If we're talking about sexual

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Speaker 6: intercourse or orgasm or very specifically, you need to ask

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Speaker 6: your therapist what do you mean by that and what's

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Speaker 6: the point If sexuality is your way of coming back

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Speaker 6: together and ignoring what you just went through and sweeping

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Speaker 6: it under the rug and that's your go to pattern, yes,

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Speaker 6: you need to take a break so that you can

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Speaker 6: really focus on what's happening between you emotionally. But for

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Speaker 6: a lot of people, they do use sex as kind

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Speaker 6: of like a band aid, and that's where therapists will say, Okay,

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Speaker 6: we need to not cloud your judgment. We need to

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Speaker 6: take a break from this. This is a bad cycle.

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Speaker 2: And if you're getting like kind of in a rut,

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Speaker 2: is knowing your because you said like with knowing your

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Speaker 2: intimacy styles, that's where you're going to have long lasting,

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Speaker 2: like great sex, but to stay fresh? Is that also

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Speaker 2: like good to know your intimacy styles or like what

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Speaker 2: happens if you're like, all right, we know our styles,

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Speaker 2: but like it's just I've been with this person for

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Speaker 2: this long and I'm kind of like, how do you

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Speaker 2: even have it? Because sometimes it might be awkward to

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Speaker 2: be like can we do, like like how to have

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Speaker 2: the confidence to say something to like freshen it up right.

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Speaker 6: So, if you're trying to round out your intimacy style,

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Speaker 6: which then would mean that you're trying to adopt twenty

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Speaker 6: five percent of each of the four styles into almost

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Speaker 6: every sexual interaction, it takes some work. And I'm going

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Speaker 6: to give you lots of examples of that in the

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Speaker 6: book of what you can do to be more getting,

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Speaker 6: what you can do to experience more release, what you

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Speaker 6: can do to be more responsive, what you can do

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Speaker 6: to experience more bonding. You're gonna have to put those

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Speaker 6: into effect. And now I have a quiz that will

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Speaker 6: help you to determine what percentage of each you're at currently,

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Speaker 6: so that you can know which one you need to adjust.

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Speaker 6: And again it's great for engineers, but it's also great

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Speaker 6: for people who are like, I don't know what I'm doing.

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Speaker 6: I just know that sometimes we're feeling offfed well. The

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Speaker 6: book definitely gives you lots of examples, but for instance,

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Speaker 6: with somebody who's not used to being responsive. I've gotten

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Speaker 6: a lot of people who tag me on their quiz

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Speaker 6: results and they're like zero percent responsive, and they think

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Speaker 6: that that's good, well know, because what that ends up

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Speaker 6: looking like in real life is that their partner is putting.

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Speaker 6: They're not able to allow their partner to take the

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Speaker 6: lead at all.

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Speaker 3: So they're partners.

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Speaker 6: Taking the lead, but they're feeling like it's not enough.

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Speaker 6: So for instance, they they're the ones that are always initiating.

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Speaker 6: The person who's zero percent responsive is always initiating. So

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Speaker 6: their partner's like, okay, you're not giving me a chance.

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Speaker 6: They might take a lead emotionally, but physically they're not

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Speaker 6: giving the chance to step up. And so that's when

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Speaker 6: people say you never initiate. I always do, so it's

400
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Speaker 6: important to take turns.

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Speaker 7: But what if you know, I mean, for so many

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Speaker 7: years they don't step up.

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Speaker 3: And that's I mean.

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Speaker 6: In my office, I'm always dealing with people who don't

405
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Speaker 6: know how to initiate. They either feel like they try

406
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Speaker 6: for so many years, so now it's your turn, you

407
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Speaker 6: take the the time. That's not the way a long

408
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Speaker 6: lasting sexual relationship will work. The other thing is some

409
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Speaker 6: people just feel super awkward, like they do like a

410
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Speaker 6: team again and be like, oh, I'm going to put

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Speaker 6: myself out there and you're going to reject me. The

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Speaker 6: other time is they are awkward and they sometimes like

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Speaker 6: use a different voice, or you know, they like they

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Speaker 6: walk around being kind of funny. Silliness is fun, right.

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Speaker 6: Sex is play for adults. So I get that. But

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Speaker 6: if every time you're going into this you feel like

417
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Speaker 6: this rush of oh my gosh, I feel like I'm

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Speaker 6: going into myself. Do you mean to have a conversation

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Speaker 6: with your partner and just ask them what's the sexiest

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Speaker 6: way that I can initiate verbally nonverbally? Do I light

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Speaker 6: a candle on my set of the night standing? You

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Speaker 6: light yours when you're ready. I mean, there's so many

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Speaker 6: different ways to get it done. You just have to

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Speaker 6: make sure that it's happening.

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Speaker 2: What do you do when the other person doesn't like

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Speaker 2: that they're very selfish and it's kind of like, wait,

427
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Speaker 2: what we're done? Like like want to try to like

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Speaker 2: you know, it's and yeah, So what would you say

429
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Speaker 2: to the women that are kind of in that situation

430
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Speaker 2: where it's just like and they don't even seem to

431
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Speaker 2: really care or try or to like attempt to like

432
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Speaker 2: get the person off.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is.

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Speaker 6: Why it's so important to have this conversation and share

435
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Speaker 6: the for intimacy styles with a partner, because you can

436
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Speaker 6: have that conversation without it being accusatory. Oh, we're supposed

437
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Speaker 6: to both be experiencing release. Oh we're supposed to both

438
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:10,200
Speaker 6: be being giving, instead of it being you're all released

439
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:18,960
Speaker 6: and you leave me high and dry. Sometimes sometimes, yeah,

440
00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:21,560
Speaker 6: I think it's so important that you have that conversation.

441
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:25,480
Speaker 6: You say, hey, I know that maybe after you get off,

442
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,359
Speaker 6: you're exhausted, or you're in like your own world, you

443
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:32,240
Speaker 6: don't even realize what's going on. But maybe I need

444
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:37,720
Speaker 6: to seek my pleasure before you experience your climax, because

445
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:42,119
Speaker 6: otherwise it's not happening, or you know, sometimes it's all

446
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:44,119
Speaker 6: about what it is that you're doing, the positions that

447
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,679
Speaker 6: you're experiencing. But speak up. So many women do not

448
00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:50,240
Speaker 6: speak up because they don't think it's lately. I wrote

449
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,520
Speaker 6: about that in the book too. They don't think it's ladylike.

450
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,439
Speaker 6: They don't think, you know, they're supposed to be, you know,

451
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 6: all after the pleasure. But if their partners think that

452
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:02,159
Speaker 6: they're doing okay, they're going to do the minimum and

453
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:03,520
Speaker 6: we're going to be less resentful.

454
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's so true. I mean, for I feel

455
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,720
Speaker 2: like in my like I've just found my voice, I

456
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:13,879
Speaker 2: think with like sex, which is so interesting because it

457
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,520
Speaker 2: was probably towards the very end of my relationship where

458
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,160
Speaker 2: I'm like, hey, like I'm in this too, Like can

459
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,320
Speaker 2: I can I have a little something afterwards? I mean,

460
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 2: I think the voice also comes with like growing an

461
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,439
Speaker 2: age and yeah, that's where they say, like women in

462
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,399
Speaker 2: like their late thirties, forties or you know, know what

463
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,280
Speaker 2: they want and they are going to speak up. Yeah,

464
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:35,800
Speaker 2: and it's true. Are you do you feel like you're there?

465
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 3: Yeah?

466
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 7: I mean because it's like, then what are what are?

467
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,200
Speaker 7: What is the other option? You're going to live another

468
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,920
Speaker 7: forty years not being pleasured.

469
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 2: Right or being like I guess I'll just grab my

470
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 2: vibrator from the side table. It's like it's either passive aggressive,

471
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 2: you're resentful, or you go somewhere else or you look

472
00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:58,120
Speaker 2: somewhere else.

473
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 6: So yeah, yeah, you're gonna end up losing interest, which

474
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 6: is the last thing that your partner really wants, because

475
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,800
Speaker 6: you'll end up losing interest in sex, and then guess what,

476
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 6: You'll lose interest in them.

477
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 2: And then someone else will probably look shiny somewhere else.

478
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:12,760
Speaker 2: You'll be like, oh well, I can. I'm sure they'd

479
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:13,399
Speaker 2: have sex with me.

480
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,720
Speaker 6: They look like they have a rounded out intimacy soyle.

481
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 6: But I do think it all goes back to even

482
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 6: if you haven't found your voice, Let's say you're in

483
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 6: your twenties, let's say you're inexperienced. Let's say you're in

484
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,280
Speaker 6: your forties and inexperience, whatever it is. I do think

485
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,680
Speaker 6: it's important to say I have something that I want

486
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,120
Speaker 6: to be able to talk to you about, like our

487
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,879
Speaker 6: intimacy style. And again, the book is such a great

488
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 6: catalyst for these conversations because you're saying, this is what

489
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 6: this expert is saying, what do you think? How are

490
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,680
Speaker 6: we measuring up? You don't have to accuse, you don't

491
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 6: have to criticize, You just bring up the conversation. You know,

492
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 6: I use the five Old languages all the time in

493
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,479
Speaker 6: my practice. It is such a great way to just

494
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 6: get that conversation started. Emotional intimacy that otherwise couples may

495
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 6: not want to talk about because it may come up

496
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,440
Speaker 6: as a criticism. It's the same thing with the four

497
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 6: intimacy styles, talking about how rounded out you are or

498
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 6: how you need to kind of tweak things to be

499
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,439
Speaker 6: rounded out, there's no criticism.

500
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,680
Speaker 2: Well, I am so excited to read the four Intimacy

501
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 2: Styles and everyone that's listening go get your book. And

502
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 2: where else can our listeners find you?

503
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, everything on line is doctor Diviana dot com. Just

504
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 6: spell it out, Doctor Vivianna dot com on for Intimacy

505
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 6: Styles dot com is where you can find the three

506
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 6: order for the book. I'm really excited to talk about

507
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 6: sex in a way that people can all people can

508
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 6: feel like it's it's something that they can talk about

509
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,440
Speaker 6: in a way that isn't taboo. It's you know, it's

510
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 6: really appropriate for what we're all trying to do, which

511
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 6: is just be in love and be in love forever

512
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:53,400
Speaker 6: in connection.

513
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 2: I love it. Thank you so much for coming on

514
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:59,120
Speaker 2: the show. We'll be back with more sex talk. Bye girl,

515
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. That was awesome. Appreciate you. Okay, Okay, Mark,

516
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 2: let's get our mind out of the bedroom, although it's

517
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 2: really fun to be there. But we have any emails.

518
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, and these might take you back into the bedroom.

519
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,160
Speaker 5: It goes Caitlin and some of.

520
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 1: These are a little heavy, but Caitlin asks aside from well, okay,

521
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 1: so it's time to get personal Chatta. Aside from Mike's

522
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 1: obvious infidelity, were there other issues in the relationship.

523
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 5: Maybe one's not as big and glaring.

524
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 1: Is a problem that you looked past for a long

525
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 1: time for the sake of having your family unit and

526
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 1: having a partner, where they are red flags present in

527
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:50,880
Speaker 1: addition to the sex addiction aspect.

528
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:54,439
Speaker 2: You know, I thought I was like helping other people

529
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 2: with these emails.

530
00:26:56,520 --> 00:27:00,200
Speaker 3: This is just like, is this uncomfortable? Now You're I'm

531
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 3: consortable just saying.

532
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:10,440
Speaker 2: You know, there there is a thing called the pros

533
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 2: and cons list that you do when you are I

534
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 2: think in high school or middle school, maybe now these days,

535
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 2: or maybe that's just aging me because maybe kids don't

536
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 2: do pros and cons anymore.

537
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 3: I think they did.

538
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 2: Did you ever do a pros and cons list? But

539
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 2: then you broke up with someone, You're like, here's the

540
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 2: pros for sure?

541
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,160
Speaker 1: Oh? I think I don't think that's something that goes

542
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 1: away with generations.

543
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 2: Oh you don't think so?

544
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,400
Speaker 1: No, I don't think so. Okay, I mean they're probably

545
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,200
Speaker 1: doing it in the notes app on their photo or something.

546
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 2: But people shall make that list, Like you know, I

547
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 2: still like pull out the paper, still like here's my notebook.

548
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 2: If I was just talking to my buddy Justin Sylvester

549
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 2: about this on his podcast, and I think at the

550
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,719
Speaker 2: end of the day, and again, this is something Catherine,

551
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 2: when I was having my my mental breakdown on Laurel

552
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 2: Canyon a few weeks ago in la you put the

553
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 2: cheating and infidelity aside, there's a list of other things

554
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 2: that are still very that are not acceptable as a husband,

555
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 2: like lying and some the characteristics. I'll say, there's characteristics

556
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 2: that were very hard to overlook that just wasn't getting better.

557
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 2: And I think again cheating aside, it's very hard when

558
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 2: you look at the characteristics of Okay, this is you know,

559
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 2: this person is has a history of lying, has a

560
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 2: you know, so yes, there there were that was what really,

561
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 2: at the end of the day helps me sleep at

562
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 2: night knowing that because of these some of these certain

563
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 2: characteristics and my characteristics that we just don't gel well

564
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 2: together in the end of the day. Yes, how's that answer?

565
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 5: Very dipresab I thought it was great. Do you fear

566
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 5: that you are drawn to people who have these characteristics?

567
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 2: So my issue is I am drawn to people that

568
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 2: will never fully love me because it's something that I

569
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 2: I always want, and for some reason, I go to

570
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 2: the people that I know deep down can never love

571
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 2: me the way that I want to be loved. And

572
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 2: so my battle is I want to show and prove

573
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 2: that I'm lovable and worthy enough and try to win

574
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 2: that person. That's my issue, and that's something you're working on, Yes,

575
00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 2: very hard with a therapist. Yeah, with you know who

576
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 2: you guys talked to last week, Amy or a few

577
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 2: weeks ago, Ama, Alexander. Yeah, that's that's definitely because I

578
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 2: look back. I I have this journal from back from

579
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 2: two thousand and two, and I look back and I'm like,

580
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 2: why did I stay in that abusive relationship? Why did

581
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 2: I stay in this situation when this person was cheating?

582
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 2: Why did I? And it's like, if I loved myself enough,

583
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 2: I would have never stayed after Mike che had done

584
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 2: me a month into our relationship, ever, never, because I

585
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 2: would have known my worth. I would have known that

586
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 2: I was good. I did not deserve that, that I

587
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 2: was good enough that I didn't need his his actions

588
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 2: to confirm that I'm enough. And that's where I want

589
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 2: to be in my next relationship, where I know my

590
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:54,239
Speaker 2: worth so much that I will not settle for a

591
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 2: second for what I know. And now again, nobody's perfect.

592
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 2: I'm not perfect. Still a lot of stuff I'm gonna

593
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 2: have to work on in the next relationship. But again

594
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 2: it comes down to the characteristics of someone and how

595
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 2: they treat you, and not staying with someone that doesn't

596
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 2: fill your.

597
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: Cup all right, as Devon Franklin says, filled cups, filled

598
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: cups exactly.

599
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 5: This is from Morgan and it's even heavier.

600
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 2: Okay, great.

601
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,479
Speaker 1: My question, unfortunately revolves around a painful part of your past,

602
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 1: so apologies, miscarriage and trying to conceive. My husband and

603
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 1: I miscarried in January of twenty twenty decided to try

604
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 1: again right away.

605
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 5: Since then, we've been unable to conceive. When we've found

606
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 5: out that.

607
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 1: I have endometriosis, we're about to go into our fifth

608
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 1: IUI attempt, and I have decided that IVF is not

609
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 1: an option for us. My question, I guess, is when

610
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 1: do you give up and accept the fact that it

611
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 1: just might not happen. I've been struggling with this, but

612
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 1: the ups and downs of getting excited and hopeful and

613
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 1: then crushed when the next period comes is just taking

614
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 1: a huge toll on me. I better off getting away

615
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 1: from all of that heartache and moving on and just

616
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 1: being happy with my life and wonderful husband.

617
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 5: Or should we keep trying for children.

618
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 2: I mean, it clearly sounds it's something. First of all,

619
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 2: sorry you have to go through all that if it's

620
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 2: obviously your love and your desire to be a mom

621
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 2: is very present because you're taking those steps. And I

622
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 2: know you said that IVF isn't for you, I would

623
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 2: just I don't know anything honestly about endemetriosis, but I

624
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 2: would just say, even though you say IVF isn't for you,

625
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 2: maybe look into it just a little bit more. I

626
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 2: don't know if again I don't know, like if you

627
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 2: can't do endemetriosis with IVF, I'm not really sure. But

628
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:48,719
Speaker 2: iuis are not as effective as IVF, and again I

629
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 2: know how expensive it can be and all those things.

630
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 2: But I think when your love and your desire to

631
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 2: have that family for me personally, I would want to

632
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 2: do everything I poss simply could to say, okay, I've

633
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 2: now done everything I could, which is as aggressive as

634
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 2: IVF is as aggressive as okay, and demetriosis, how can

635
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 2: we as you know, is there a way that we

636
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 2: could maybe save money for surrogacy or adoption. That to

637
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 2: me is when and if all those things those boxes were,

638
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 2: then you know, okay, we tried it, we tried it,

639
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 2: we can't we physically can't afford it, or we you know,

640
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 2: check check, check check. That is then when it says okay,

641
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 2: God like, maybe this wasn't the plan, and that is

642
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 2: when I could walk away. But I would for me personally,

643
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 2: I would have to check off all those boxes.

644
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 3: I would too, and I never had to go through that, thankfully.

645
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 3: But did you buy.

646
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 2: UI or I went straight to IVF because I heard

647
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 2: that it was more right.

648
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 3: That's what Yeah, that's what I've heard. But I would

649
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 3: do the same.

650
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 4: I would try everything, all boxes until there was you know,

651
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 4: I mean, you can't leave yourself no money, but you know,

652
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 4: I would try everything to be a.

653
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 1: Mom, Heather says, Hi Janna Mark and Easton ah Well,

654
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 1: listening to the podcast today, I had a thought about

655
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 1: something that hasn't really been touched on.

656
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:10,720
Speaker 5: My question is mostly for the boys.

657
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, out of the news of Jane's divorce hit you,

658
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 1: did you suspect it would one day come to this

659
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 1: or were you completely blown away.

660
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:18,799
Speaker 3: Oh.

661
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 2: I love getting Mark and Easton and on this. This

662
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:22,799
Speaker 2: is great. I love how Easton just like popped into

663
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 2: It's like I'm here. But this is a great question though,

664
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 2: because you know, we were a family, all of us together,

665
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:30,879
Speaker 2: So I am, yeah, I'm curious to know that too.

666
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 2: Thanks for the question.

667
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 1: I I'll go first only because I was widely quoted

668
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,919
Speaker 1: in a number of publications about this.

669
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 2: Yes, you were. We never talked about that, but yes.

670
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 5: It was weird. It was so.

671
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,800
Speaker 2: Weird because I feel like you've been quoted before, haven't

672
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 2: you at Seacrest.

673
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 1: I mean maybe at some point, but it was still

674
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 1: it still kind of came out of nowhere, and I

675
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 1: didn't see it coming. I was like, hey, that's my name.

676
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 1: It's very It's always odd to see your name in

677
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 1: US weekly, and when you're me, you know, when you're you, you're.

678
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 5: Probably used to it.

679
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:05,320
Speaker 1: But anyway, I was totally blown away, and I acknowledged

680
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 1: in the article that maybe that makes me stupid, but

681
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 1: I said, on this very show, I said to you two,

682
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,319
Speaker 1: I said, I can't guarantee that you're going to be

683
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 1: together forever, but I am sure.

684
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,720
Speaker 5: I'm convinced that Mike will not stray again.

685
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 1: I had the wolf pulled over my eyes, just like

686
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 1: everybody else did, because I was convinced that he had

687
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:27,840
Speaker 1: done the work and was in a really good place.

688
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 1: So when I heard that things had gone super sold

689
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 1: for you guys and this may be the end, I'm

690
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 1: so stupid. I thought something else has happened, something else.

691
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:38,879
Speaker 5: Has gone wrong. It can't be that.

692
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 1: It's anything but that, And of course that's the obvious thing,

693
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 1: and of course that's what it was. So yes, I

694
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: was absolutely shocked by that.

695
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 8: Yes, I mean I feel the same way. I really.

696
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 9: I mean, with all due respect, I have seen Jena,

697
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 9: I've seen you and Mike fight more than I think

698
00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 9: anyone else in my life.

699
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 8: I've been there, like intimately for a lot of it.

700
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,719
Speaker 9: But I really, I really, I was convinced that he

701
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 9: had beaten that part of his challenges.

702
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 8: I really thought that if you guys.

703
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 9: Were going to split out, what was going to be

704
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 9: for uh, I don't know, I mean, he was I know,

705
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 9: he spent a lot of money on those app games,

706
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 9: Like I thought it was gonna be something like that.

707
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 8: I really didn't think, I don't know, I was I.

708
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 9: Was totally blindsided by that, and it it really I

709
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 9: don't know, I just I felt like as a child

710
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 9: of divorce, like I I, it brought back a lot

711
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 9: of similar feelings because I was like so conflicted about

712
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 9: this person that I'd become close to and that I

713
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 9: thought I knew, and then this, you know, I I

714
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 9: was discovering things I didn't know and and severity I

715
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 9: wasn't really aware of. And uh, I don't know, it's

716
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 9: a it's a really it's a really weird feeling to have,

717
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 9: but I was.

718
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 8: I was definitely blindsided by.

719
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 2: That, which makes me feel a little less crazy because honestly,

720
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 2: like when I did see the thing mark when you

721
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,319
Speaker 2: quoted that, I was just like, oh, he's just he's

722
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 2: lying about that, Like of course he saw it. Like

723
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 2: you know, we fought all the time, and you know,

724
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 2: you know I was snippy at times or I was

725
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:20,240
Speaker 2: this or you know, and but it makes me feel like, okay,

726
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 2: like he was good, Like he had us all kind

727
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,799
Speaker 2: of fooled. And so that was where I'm like, because

728
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,359
Speaker 2: I it just makes me feel like I'm not as

729
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:31,839
Speaker 2: crazy as I thought I was.

730
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 1: I feel like the snippiness and such was always justified

731
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 1: from the previous behavior, Like, I know, that's how difficult

732
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:41,319
Speaker 1: that is to get over and regain the trust. So

733
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:43,759
Speaker 1: I totally understood that. I just felt like, so I

734
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 1: never felt like that was inappropriate. I just felt like,

735
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 1: you tw were moving in a really good direction. And

736
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:50,839
Speaker 1: I also think, and I don't know Mike well enough,

737
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 1: and it would be inappropriate for me to say this

738
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,800
Speaker 1: about him, So I just speak generally, when a person

739
00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 1: lies so deeply it became comes like it becomes real

740
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 1: to them. It seems like it becomes and then then

741
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 1: they're really good at it because when it becomes their

742
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 1: own reality, it's easy to sell it to friends, coworkers, family, whoever,

743
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 1: because they're just like, it's like they're not playing a

744
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 1: role anymore. They've become that fake PERSONA.

745
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 5: It's scary.

746
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:22,360
Speaker 2: And that's a my therapist I say, she's like, that's

747
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,959
Speaker 2: a that's a very scary thing when you can lie

748
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 2: that deep and that and convince that many people. And yeah,

749
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:32,879
Speaker 2: I think, and that's that's the hardest part, because I mean,

750
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:38,759
Speaker 2: like I was, yeah, I mean the book, I mean,

751
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:40,760
Speaker 2: all of it is just it was like the biggest

752
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:47,800
Speaker 2: kind of blindsided betrayal lie and it's it's still hard

753
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 2: to sit with. But I mean, Catherine, I think, has

754
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 2: a very opposite opinion.

755
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 4: Well, I will say I think everybody. I think everybody

756
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,319
Speaker 4: thought y'all were really good. Yeah, and me included, I

757
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 4: did think y'all were really good, minus a few little.

758
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 2: Things, even the last fifteen months.

759
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, I thought y'all were really good.

760
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 2: Like there's a few things that came up.

761
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 3: With Well, there were definitely a few things that were

762
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 3: on the phone.

763
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 2: What was like someone downloaded or what that.

764
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 4: Yes, there were several things, and then just like little

765
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 4: things that we saw in the past, his behavior would

766
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 4: kind of allude to things going on. So I think

767
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 4: I think everybody thought you were good. I thought y'all

768
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 4: were really good. I think, you know, putting out the book,

769
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 4: about to work on another book. I mean, I wanted

770
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 4: to think that everything was good. But I just had

771
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:50,720
Speaker 4: a very hard time believing him, just to be completely honest,

772
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 4: you know. I mean, my mom was a big liar,

773
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 4: you know, and so I recognized liars, and I just

774
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 4: always had hard time believing him. I Mean, I loved him,

775
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 4: you know, and I wanted to believe him, and I

776
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 4: wanted to believe that y'all could really work through this

777
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:05,920
Speaker 4: and make it work.

778
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 2: But ultimately saw so ultimately I was.

779
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 4: Wondering when the other shit would drop for sure, sadly,

780
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:16,360
Speaker 4: I mean, I hate to say that, but that's the truth.

781
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 1: Did you guys pull the book or did the book

782
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,439
Speaker 1: get a boost in sales out of curiosity or did

783
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:23,320
Speaker 1: it just kind of tank?

784
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 5: Like I'm just curious.

785
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 2: I have no idea, honestly, I haven't even asked. But we,

786
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,440
Speaker 2: like two weeks before finding out everything, we had gotten

787
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:35,359
Speaker 2: another book deal about trust. Wow, the book was going

788
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 2: to be about trust.

789
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 4: I mean we'd had a call about it like a

790
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 4: week if not less about like like call about trust.

791
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 2: Can I imagine? Like, oh my god, Like I mean,

792
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:47,839
Speaker 2: first of all, how could we even be on that call? Like,

793
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:52,280
Speaker 2: but I mean, what a thank God? Because I already

794
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:58,239
Speaker 2: feel so Yeah, but again the first book, I'm my

795
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:03,800
Speaker 2: words were very true and my experiences were true and yeah,

796
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:07,399
Speaker 2: but yeah, total, that's it's tough. It's very and it's

797
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 2: very hard now to not be just so angry about

798
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:19,439
Speaker 2: just all of it. But angry is not gonna it's

799
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 2: just not good for anybody.

800
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 5: No, But it's understandable.

801
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just yeah, yeah, just yeah, just be honest

802
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 2: everybody out there, can you just tell the truth and

803
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:41,959
Speaker 2: just yeah, that's all blot all, I got all I got.

804
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, I mean I can't even imagine, like people, Hey,

805
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:49,879
Speaker 2: the end of the day, I know what I get

806
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 2: to tell my kids when we have a very grown

807
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 2: up conversation, and I'll be proud of what I what

808
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:56,400
Speaker 2: I get to tell them.

809
00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 5: That's gonna be interesting.

810
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:00,799
Speaker 1: Because my parents split up when I was like ten

811
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 1: and they got back together again after like six months.

812
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 1: I don't have the ability to google why that all

813
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 1: went down and how it went like, that's all going

814
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:12,840
Speaker 1: to be out there, and that's that's interesting. That's just

815
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 1: a whole new level of something like this. But like

816
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 1: you say, you know, the side of your streets clean

817
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 1: if that's the expression.

818
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:26,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I wish that they didn't have to, you know,

819
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 2: And a lot of people think that I was the

820
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 2: reason why it was out there, and I'm like, let

821
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 2: us remind everyone. He came on the podcast to talk

822
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 2: about it. I didn't force him. He was the one

823
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:38,319
Speaker 2: that I was like, oh, wow, we're going to talk

824
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 2: about this, like we even have a recording of that,

825
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:44,319
Speaker 2: going like you want to talk about this? So that

826
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,719
Speaker 2: was not my decision. I mean, like, again, it came

827
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 2: out in US Weekly, that was already out there. Did

828
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:51,840
Speaker 2: I want to talk about it? Sure, I would have

829
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 2: loved to, But I was never forcing him telling him

830
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 2: to talk about it. So yeah, because he came on

831
00:42:57,840 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 2: as a guest, and I was like, all right, I

832
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:01,759
Speaker 2: guess he's good to talk about it. Okay, we're going there.

833
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 2: And from there, I mean, you know, that's when we

834
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 2: continue to speak on it. And looking back, I think

835
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 2: that was the you know, that was he had pressure

836
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 2: around that and him, you know, dealing with that was

837
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:17,759
Speaker 2: was hard. Always being the bad guy, And what I

838
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 2: say to that is just don't keep messing.

839
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:26,319
Speaker 4: Up like people made you out to be a bad guy.

840
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 4: The bad guy a lot of it, which was very

841
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:31,760
Speaker 4: hard to sit and watch. If I'm you know, people's

842
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 4: comments coming after you a lot. He wasn't always the

843
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 4: bad guy. I mean, I understand that point of view, and.

844
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 2: It's mostly watch this or do that too, controlling blah

845
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 2: blah blah.

846
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:43,760
Speaker 4: They were coming after you too, So I'm just saying

847
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:45,839
Speaker 4: it wasn't just him, and I didn't cheat.

848
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 1: That's so interesting though, that he always complained about being

849
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:50,799
Speaker 1: the bad guy, and he never stopped doing the things

850
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:51,439
Speaker 1: that made him.

851
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:52,279
Speaker 5: A bad guys.

852
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 1: Like, it's like, people keep calling me a criminal as

853
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 1: you're walking out of the bank with bags of money

854
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:56,760
Speaker 1: in each hand.

855
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 3: Isn't that the like what's the saying?

856
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 4: Like if you do something over and over, it's like

857
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:02,319
Speaker 4: insanity or something like that.

858
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 3: Just you stop, just stop.

859
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know, hopefully he's healthy now for the

860
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:19,839
Speaker 2: kid's sake. So AnyWho, let's talk about something else. Back

861
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:21,880
Speaker 2: to Oh good, see now I got captain. Back to

862
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:24,359
Speaker 2: that's great. I'd like to go have some right now.

863
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, gracious, Well, guys, I think that's a show.

864
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 2: I think I'm talked out. We're at the lake right now,

865
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:38,959
Speaker 2: so I want to get back out there.

866
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 3: I love you, guys,