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Speaker 2: It used to be you have a baby, develop the
Speaker 2: secure attachment and that's it. Our job is not to fix,
Speaker 2: it's to be there.
Speaker 3: Actually have the podcast called Raising Good Humans Psychologists all
Speaker 3: these oppressmen.
Speaker 2: Not only can you not be perfect, but it's actually
Speaker 2: worse for your kids. I feel like discipline is so controversial.
Speaker 2: I think of it as all feelings are welcome, all
Speaker 2: behaviors are not.
Speaker 4: Should everyone be a parent?
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Speaker 1: Everyone Welcome back to on purpose. I know that you
Speaker 1: come back here every week to become happier, healthier, and
Speaker 1: more healed. And it's my commitment to go and find experts,
Speaker 1: thought leaders, and thinkers that can help you on your
Speaker 1: journey to make better decisions, to change habits, and to
Speaker 1: transform your mindset. Now, I don't think there's potentially a
Speaker 1: more important topic than the one we're discussing today, because
Speaker 1: I think raising good humans, raising the future generation, and
Speaker 1: learning how to improve ourselves in the process is probably
Speaker 1: one of the most life changing journeys that any of
Speaker 1: us ever go on. And today's guest is someone who
Speaker 1: has so many great insights, so many great takeaways, so
Speaker 1: many wonderful methods that we can all apply in our
Speaker 1: daily lives to become better at being a good human
Speaker 1: and raising good humans in the process. I'm speaking about
Speaker 1: doctor Eliza Pressman. She's a developmental psychologist with nearly two
Speaker 1: decades of experience working with families and their healthcare providers
Speaker 1: who care for them. Eliza is also the host of
Speaker 1: the podcast Raising Good Humans. If you're not listening already,
Speaker 1: go ahead and subscribe. And today we're talking about her
Speaker 1: new book that's out called the Five Principles of Parenting,
Speaker 1: your essential guide to raising good humans. Please welcome to
Speaker 1: On Purpose, Elisa Pressman. Alisa, it's great to have you here.
Speaker 3: I'm so thrilled to be here.
Speaker 4: Ah, thank you for being here.
Speaker 1: Honestly, I'm really excited to dive in as been talking about,
Speaker 1: and I wanted to get straight into this because I
Speaker 1: have so many questions I want to ask you, and
Speaker 1: I want to start off with what I believe is
Speaker 1: the most important one. And I feel in our society
Speaker 1: is often missed, forgotten, avoided, not even a thought. And
Speaker 1: the question is should everyone be a parent?
Speaker 2: WHOA I don't think we can presume to say what
Speaker 2: anybody should or shouldn't be other than the whatever your
Speaker 2: definition of good human is. And so if that entails
Speaker 2: bringing kids into this world, if that's your calling, I
Speaker 2: think you must do it in whatever way that works out.
Speaker 2: But not everybody wants that, and it's it's, you know,
Speaker 2: it's an assumption that we probably shouldn't be making.
Speaker 1: Absolutely for those who want children or have always thought
Speaker 1: they've wanted children, what would you encourage people to think
Speaker 1: about before diving in? Because I often feel that, like
Speaker 1: so many things in society, whether it's the degree we
Speaker 1: end up studying, or the job we get out of college,
Speaker 1: or getting married or having children. It almost feels like
Speaker 1: we're on a conveyor belt and we don't really stop
Speaker 1: to pause and reflect, which I know is one of
Speaker 1: your key principles. We don't often stop and think, should
Speaker 1: we are we ready? What are the qualifications, what's useful?
Speaker 1: And we just dive in. And it's interesting that, you know,
Speaker 1: and I've heard many people talk about this. I think
Speaker 1: I spoke to Kristen Bell and Dax about this at
Speaker 1: one point, and they were talking about how, like you
Speaker 1: just get to come back from a hospital with a baby,
Speaker 1: no exam, there's no test, and like you spend all
Speaker 1: these years studying for a degree, or you spend a
Speaker 1: couple of years practicing out a drive or whatever it
Speaker 1: may be, but all of a sudden, you have a
Speaker 1: baby without a license and nothing else. And so, what
Speaker 1: are some of the things you'd encourage people to think
Speaker 1: about even before becoming a parent, that you think would
Speaker 1: help them in the process of being a parent.
Speaker 2: I mean, ideally we all are thinking about this before
Speaker 2: or we've become parents, because it just that reflection of like,
Speaker 2: how did I get here?
Speaker 3: How do we come to be who we are?
Speaker 2: Which I think is the sort of crux of what
Speaker 2: developmental sciences is, how do we get to be who
Speaker 2: we are?
Speaker 3: And what then.
Speaker 2: Happened in that process that I want to bring to
Speaker 2: parenting and what do I want to let go of?
Speaker 2: And if you take the time to reflect, then you
Speaker 2: can be intentional about your parenting. So the idea that
Speaker 2: we can do this before we have kids. If you
Speaker 2: are in a position to talk to your partner about
Speaker 2: that and really think through that, talk to yourself about that,
Speaker 2: you can have a mission statement for how you want
Speaker 2: to be as a parent. It's not like what your
Speaker 2: kid's going to be like, because you have no idea what.
Speaker 3: Your kid's going to be like.
Speaker 2: That's a fantasy that you can decide, but we can't.
Speaker 2: They are whatever seed is planted is planted and that
Speaker 2: flower blooms. But we have so much capacity to be
Speaker 2: intent and so that reflection before you're even trying to
Speaker 2: have kids is so beneficial and it's actually linked with
Speaker 2: secure attachment relationships.
Speaker 4: Oh wow, talk to me about that connection. I didn't
Speaker 4: realize that. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So one of the things in the research on human development.
Speaker 2: Is that having a secure attachment relationship with your child
Speaker 2: or with you know, as the child has with one caregiver,
Speaker 2: and that is you know, a whole other. We're probably
Speaker 2: part of this conversation. It's so deeply protective. It buffers
Speaker 2: the impact of trauma. It's so important. And not everybody
Speaker 2: grew up with that. So about sixty five percent of
Speaker 2: us came from secure attachment relationships. If we didn't, and
Speaker 2: we reflect back and we think through what was going on,
Speaker 2: how we came to be who we are, how we
Speaker 2: learned how to be loved, how we experienced love, how
Speaker 2: we gave love, we then have a much higher chance
Speaker 2: of turning what could have been just an autopilot to
Speaker 2: a different kind of relationship into this secure attachment.
Speaker 1: Now, no what everyone's thinking right now, they're thinking, at
Speaker 1: list I wish you told me this five years ago.
Speaker 1: You'd have saved me right Like, I feel like a
Speaker 1: lot of our listeners may have already had children.
Speaker 4: And it's natural. Again, I'm not judging anyone.
Speaker 1: It's such a part of our community in society. And
Speaker 1: and then I think a lot of people, especially our community,
Speaker 1: who is really smart and thoughtful and intentional and listens
Speaker 1: and goes. You know what, actually I realized that, but
Speaker 1: I've already had children now and I feel like I've
Speaker 1: made mistakes. What are some of the most common mistakes
Speaker 1: people come up to you with where they're feeling guilt
Speaker 1: and shame And I feel so sad for that, because again,
Speaker 1: you couldn't have known. You didn't know, and now that
Speaker 1: you know, as Maya Angelou said, now you know better,
Speaker 1: you can do better. What have you seen are some
Speaker 1: of the biggest mistakes people carry around as guilt and
Speaker 1: shame when there when they have become parents.
Speaker 2: Well, I think so importantly attachment reallyationships.
Speaker 3: Are dynamic, so you weren't just like it used to be.
Speaker 2: We used to think like you have a baby, you
Speaker 2: develop the secure attachment, it's like a bond and that's it.
Speaker 2: But we know now it's dynamic, and so if you
Speaker 2: have a five year old or a sixteen year old
Speaker 2: or a thirty five year old, you can still grow
Speaker 2: that healthy attachment relationship.
Speaker 3: So you can change.
Speaker 2: And that's what your audience knows all the time. And
Speaker 2: it's true about relationships with your kids. But I think
Speaker 2: that shame is from thinking like I wasn't there enough.
Speaker 2: There's shame in not being able to fix whatever your
Speaker 2: child's going through. And what I hope everybody gets from
Speaker 2: certainly this conversation is that our job is not to fix,
Speaker 2: it's to be there. And that's what secure attachment is.
Speaker 2: Even in your adult relationships. It's like, who can sit
Speaker 2: with me through all of these experiences, through these feelings
Speaker 2: because we're not like the idea of being happy isn't
Speaker 2: really about always being happy. It's about knowing you can
Speaker 2: come back from whatever it is that you're going through
Speaker 2: and you will be happy again. And if our kids
Speaker 2: experience the range of things that come their way and
Speaker 2: they know that they have someone sort of sitting by
Speaker 2: their side, they end up in this relationship that is
Speaker 2: securely attached and it's not like one and done and
Speaker 2: if it didn't. You know, that's the thing that I
Speaker 2: think is the trickiest is feeling like I'm responsible for
Speaker 2: my child's constant happiness. I have to feel ashamed if
Speaker 2: I wasn't there for every moment, or if I couldn't
Speaker 2: fix that feeling, which you can't, as you know. And
Speaker 2: I think sometimes people feel like they're maybe better or
Speaker 2: worse at different stages. And so there's you know, like
Speaker 2: this assumption that we're going to kind of know what
Speaker 2: to do, the idea that you do come home from
Speaker 2: the hospital and you're just like, okay, I guess I
Speaker 2: just feel like in adulthood this happens all the time.
Speaker 2: Like I remember just the first time I was, you know,
Speaker 2: in my twenties and I had my own apartment, and
Speaker 2: I was like, wait, I can just decide what I'm doing.
Speaker 3: I can open a bottle of wine. Like there were
Speaker 3: things that I still was like, I'm going to it's bizarre.
Speaker 2: And now like that I'm the last, you know, person
Speaker 2: in charge of whatever, and there's nobody that I'm supposed
Speaker 2: to ask and I can make a decision. I'm still
Speaker 2: kind of like, is that okay?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 2: And so the idea that you're just like in charge
Speaker 2: of raising a whole human being or more is really
Speaker 2: daunting and we all kind of think everybody else knows.
Speaker 3: We don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think those two things really resonated with me,
Speaker 1: this idea of I want to fix all their problems
Speaker 1: and I'm not there them enough, and I can feel
Speaker 1: like I can obviously only relate to them theoretically from
Speaker 1: a parenting standpoint, but I can relate to them in
Speaker 1: my other relationships, So whether it's with my younger sister,
Speaker 1: whether it's with my wife, or whether it's with the
Speaker 1: people I love in my life. And I can only
Speaker 1: imagine how that is amplified with a child that you're
Speaker 1: you know, that feeling and so, how do you carry
Speaker 1: that weight and almost loosen that control that is naturally
Speaker 1: it feels so got instinct correct, right, It doesn't feel
Speaker 1: like that's a bad idea. Yeah, it feels like that's
Speaker 1: the best thing, that's what you were made for. And
Speaker 1: then you're failing at it, and so how do you
Speaker 1: do what you just said? How do you carry that
Speaker 1: weight at the same time is recognized that you need
Speaker 1: to put it down?
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that that's where the idea of
Speaker 2: repair and the what we know about repair comes in
Speaker 2: is that in the same way that we build muscles,
Speaker 2: like you need tiny little ruptures in the muscles to
Speaker 2: grow stronger muscles, we have to have tiny moments of disrepair,
Speaker 2: of not being exactly the right parent, of not being
Speaker 2: able to fix the feeling, of the feeling being really
Speaker 2: really hard, of the experience being a fail in order
Speaker 2: to grow stronger relationships. And so I think taking the
Speaker 2: weight off is much more easy or comes by more
Speaker 2: easily when you remind yourself, like, I'm actually building this
Speaker 2: muscle for my child and for me. So every mistake
Speaker 2: is to me this like, Okay, I just because you
Speaker 2: have this relationship, because you're invested, because you're intentional, you're
Speaker 2: going to blow it.
Speaker 3: You're not going to be able to fix it.
Speaker 2: You're going to feel like, oh my god, did I
Speaker 2: ruin my kid? And no, you invested in resilience building
Speaker 2: because you're there. If you were like, oh, well, you know,
Speaker 2: like rot and suffer, that's a totally different thing. But
Speaker 2: nobody listening to this is that. And so I think
Speaker 2: that lifts the weight of not only can you not
Speaker 2: be perfect and not only can you not fix everything,
Speaker 2: but it's actually worse for your kids. And it is
Speaker 2: important to acknowledge what you said, which is it's still
Speaker 2: appropriate to want to of course, like.
Speaker 3: You you should.
Speaker 2: I think we all want to help the people we love,
Speaker 2: and it is amplified with the people that you are
Speaker 2: raising because it's like, I can make this better, I
Speaker 2: have capacity to change this, to call the school, to
Speaker 2: call the friend, to change the system, to.
Speaker 3: Move to whatever.
Speaker 2: But when we can get a little bit more sort
Speaker 2: of accepting of the fact that it is so hard
Speaker 2: to watch someone struggle, but when they're struggling next to
Speaker 2: you and you can be there for them and help
Speaker 2: them understand that that is part of being a person.
Speaker 2: It's not dangerous. Feelings are not dangerous. You're giving them
Speaker 2: such a gift that that's where I think you can
Speaker 2: let go of the weight.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I think when I'm listening to you, I'm
Speaker 1: thinking it takes almost the same amount of energy to
Speaker 1: shame yourself as it does to shift yourself.
Speaker 3: Oh wow, yeah.
Speaker 1: Right, this idea of I'm going to sit here and
Speaker 1: keep replaying the mistake I made and the wrong thing
Speaker 1: I said, and how I messed up in this moment,
Speaker 1: or I do reflect on that as you would say,
Speaker 1: I do reflect on that, and now I know what
Speaker 1: I need to say next time, and what I need
Speaker 1: to say now and how to behave differently. And that
Speaker 1: takes the same amount of time, It takes the same
Speaker 1: amount of energy, it takes the same amount of effort.
Speaker 1: But on negativity bias naturally takes us into.
Speaker 3: That it's like a spiral spiral, yeah.
Speaker 1: And just self judgment, self criticism that we then pass
Speaker 1: down on to our children as they see us do that.
Speaker 2: And then you're you know when you when you shift it,
Speaker 2: you're actually building the very strength of the relationship that
Speaker 2: you're lamenting, yes for the mistake.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, when you when you were saying that, I
Speaker 1: was thinking about I almost feel like when I speak
Speaker 1: to a lot of parents as well, and I speak
Speaker 1: to my community and audience, there's a feeling of I
Speaker 1: went through something I never want my kids to go
Speaker 1: through that, right, or I didn't get this opportunity.
Speaker 4: I really want them to get this opportunity.
Speaker 1: So our life becomes this mirror projection of what I've
Speaker 1: called before, the gifts and gaps in our lives. So
Speaker 1: if our parents gave us gifts, we want them to
Speaker 1: have those same gifts. And if our parents left gaps,
Speaker 1: we want to fill those gaps for the kids. And
Speaker 1: so in that mindset, how does that mindset create challenges
Speaker 1: and issues and how do we actually tweak and refine that.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think we overcorrect and so if we're
Speaker 2: reflective and we can say, Okay, this is the thing
Speaker 2: I really didn't have and I really want my kids
Speaker 2: to have. But let me be aware that that doesn't
Speaker 2: mean that I should forget about, for example, boundaries. You know,
Speaker 2: if I didn't receive a lot of affection and love
Speaker 2: and connection, am I going to be so worried that
Speaker 2: I'm not giving enough of that to my child that
Speaker 2: I'm scared of the limits and boundaries that are necessary
Speaker 2: for their safety.
Speaker 3: I think that happens all the time.
Speaker 2: And so it's all middle path, you know, like if
Speaker 2: we notice that something really really matters to us, can
Speaker 2: we let it matter without overcorrecting and forgetting about these
Speaker 2: other things?
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's so odd.
Speaker 1: I know, it's such a challenge, Like I feel like
Speaker 1: that controller inside of us, and I feel that there's
Speaker 1: such a experience that we're having of what we're trying
Speaker 1: to heal in our children is what we're trying to
Speaker 1: heal in ourselves. And so there's this constant belief that
Speaker 1: I think I'm trying to heal them, but really I'm
Speaker 1: just preaching to myself and processing something internal. But our
Speaker 1: self awareness is so warped sometimes or hidden that we
Speaker 1: can't see that we think we're doing it.
Speaker 4: Just for the benefit.
Speaker 1: How do you break that veil, Like, how do you
Speaker 1: kind of how do you reflect effectively? I think that's
Speaker 1: the question I'm asking, Yeah, what is effective reflection? Because
Speaker 1: I think we can all ponder and maybe our reflection
Speaker 1: takes us as far as yeah, you know, my parents
Speaker 1: like always forgot my birthday. I won't forget my kid's birthday.
Speaker 1: I'll do it right. Or yeah, you know, my dad
Speaker 1: never turned up to my sports games, and so if my.
Speaker 3: Kids sports like to miss the thing, Yeah, yeah, so
Speaker 3: that's good.
Speaker 1: But what is the most effective version of reflection that
Speaker 1: makes it such a big part of your five principles?
Speaker 2: So I think if you can write down, like set
Speaker 2: a timer and for five minutes and write down the
Speaker 2: story of who you are as a parent that your
Speaker 2: child's going to explain to their grandchildren, Oh wow, just
Speaker 2: five minutes, who are they describing? And then circle the
Speaker 2: words that really keep coming up and make that your
Speaker 2: mission Like this is my mission statement as a parent,
Speaker 2: and I now know sort of my north star, and
Speaker 2: within that framework, I'm going to reflect and decide if
Speaker 2: it's still working or am I overcorrecting. So like, for example,
Speaker 2: if one of the things that keeps coming up is
Speaker 2: I want to be present.
Speaker 3: I want to be present. I want to be present.
Speaker 2: And the way you're translating it is you're not missing
Speaker 2: a game to the point where your child doesn't know
Speaker 2: how to enjoy themselves without the audience, to the point
Speaker 2: where it feels like they are so the center of
Speaker 2: your universe that they are worried that you are not
Speaker 2: a person without them. Then you would want to pivot
Speaker 2: and say, I can be present without being invasive, you know,
Speaker 2: But I think that that's the easiest way is to
Speaker 2: check into how is this? I mean, in a scientific paper,
Speaker 2: you'd say, how is this operationalized? And in life, I
Speaker 2: would genuinely do that exercise regularly, like kind of every
Speaker 2: year and check in. And the other thing that I
Speaker 2: think is very interesting about it is if you figure
Speaker 2: out kind of what your mission statement is like in
Speaker 2: this is this parent or in this household, if you're
Speaker 2: doing it with your co parent or again, you can
Speaker 2: keep it to yourself, but as your kids get older,
Speaker 2: if you say to them, my mission in this as
Speaker 2: a parent is this, you know, these three things were
Speaker 2: really important to me. What do you think my mission
Speaker 2: or our mission statement is? And if your kids come
Speaker 2: back to you as they're older, and your like kindness,
Speaker 2: empathy and presence, and they're like education, persistence and money.
Speaker 2: That's okay, But then it's a moment to say, huh,
Speaker 2: there's one of two things happening here. Either I'm not
Speaker 2: parenting in the way that I mean to, because the
Speaker 2: messaging is clearly not getting across. Or I'm not honest
Speaker 2: with myself about what I'm really going for because there's
Speaker 2: no right or wrong. No, But it's more like, how
Speaker 2: do I keep checking in with it so that that
Speaker 2: reflection is taken into action.
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Speaker 4: Go grab your Juni.
Speaker 1: So interesting how two people can have the exact same
Speaker 1: experience with the same parents, yet respond so differently. I
Speaker 1: played a lot of sports growing up, and my mum
Speaker 1: would be taking care of my sister and rarely would
Speaker 1: my dad show up. And I took that and I
Speaker 1: have a good relationship with my dad now, and I
Speaker 1: took that as a sign of I got to decide
Speaker 1: who I wanted to be. And it's been probably one
Speaker 1: of the best things that ever happened to me that
Speaker 1: my dad didn't sho up because I had no one
Speaker 1: to impress apart from myself. Yes, and I love that
Speaker 1: because till this day, I make decisions based on not
Speaker 1: completely I have challenges too, but I make wholly. I
Speaker 1: will reflect on decisions as to how do I feel
Speaker 1: about this, because I'm the person that I have to
Speaker 1: live with, and I think that's one of my favorite
Speaker 1: qualities that I've been able to gain in life. But
Speaker 1: I also know a lot of people who've been through
Speaker 1: the same thing, and they've just feel abandoned, they feel discouraged,
Speaker 1: they feel like no one was ever there for them.
Speaker 1: They weren't able to learn self validation in the process.
Speaker 1: And it's almost like as parents, when you're trying to overcorrect.
Speaker 1: It's that you don't know how a child is going
Speaker 1: to respond to your presence or your absence, And I
Speaker 1: think we can kind of get into a whirlwind around that.
Speaker 1: And I like what you're saying, this idea of actually
Speaker 1: reflect with them totally. It's such a beautiful way as
Speaker 1: they get older of like, what does that mean? And
Speaker 1: I think that requires such a maturity on a parent's
Speaker 1: part because it's hard.
Speaker 4: To do that.
Speaker 2: It is, it is, but then you get to also
Speaker 2: model for your kids this thing that we wish maybe
Speaker 2: was modeled for us. Reflection and also just to your
Speaker 2: point about the different responses. And I write about this
Speaker 2: in the book, and this is a big part of
Speaker 2: the literature and developmental science, but temperament really is real.
Speaker 2: And I like how doctor Thomas Boyse talks about it
Speaker 2: as orchids, dandelions, and then later folks said they studied tulips.
Speaker 2: But it's like a way of looking at how the
Speaker 2: environment influences you. That's kind of You're born this way right,
Speaker 2: you come into this world, has nothing to do with
Speaker 2: anything that your parents have done. You are responding to
Speaker 2: the wind in a different way than the next child.
Speaker 2: And so an orchid is going to thrive in certain sunlight,
Speaker 2: water and soil. But we've all or maybe not all
Speaker 2: of us, but I certainly have tried to raise orchids
Speaker 2: and they're like, it's like a stump because I just
Speaker 2: wasn't I wasn't sensitive enough to that particular flowers need.
Speaker 2: And so I learned about the plants that needed less
Speaker 2: and I could fill my house with those, but you
Speaker 2: can't do those. And so but like a dandelion child,
Speaker 2: and these are real, like they studied these orchid babies
Speaker 2: for real, like as babies, not as actual flowers, but
Speaker 2: just label them as orchids and dandelions. And a dandelion
Speaker 2: is probably going to grow with just like your basic sunlight,
Speaker 2: water and soil, your basic love connection and some boundaries
Speaker 2: and rules. And they're they're gonna go to the game,
Speaker 2: not go to the game. They're gonna be fine. But
Speaker 2: if you if you have a kid that isn't thriving
Speaker 2: and that's happening, then it's also it's very courageous, it's
Speaker 2: very vulnerable, but asking ourselves like what do I need
Speaker 2: to give in order for this flower to bloom? And
Speaker 2: it's gonna be different for every child. So it's not
Speaker 2: like you have one way to parent and that's it,
Speaker 2: but you know, and it's not as exhausting as it sounds.
Speaker 2: It's more just like, okay, this one because you see
Speaker 2: it pretty quickly, Like as you get to know your kids,
Speaker 2: you're like, this one notices the sound of the air
Speaker 2: conditioning more easily. This one does not notice if anything
Speaker 2: is going on, like they're just sort of moving around
Speaker 2: the world and nothing's getting to them. Other kids are
Speaker 2: like this tag is itchy. It's temperament. It's not because
Speaker 2: you know the parent was over coddling. It's like you
Speaker 2: can amplify these things, of course, like you could take
Speaker 2: a kid who's very sensitive, ignore their needs, ignore their needs,
Speaker 2: ignore their needs, and they're probably going to be extra needy.
Speaker 2: Or you can take a kid who's extra sensitive and
Speaker 2: turn that sensitivity into beautiful empathy and creativity and curiosity
Speaker 2: and thoughtfulness, but you're still dealing with the same sensitivity.
Speaker 2: So I just think that recalling that you could go
Speaker 2: through experiences like not having a parent come to your
Speaker 2: game and no, let's say you have a kid and
Speaker 2: you're like, my dad never came to the games, and
Speaker 2: this is why I'm kind of amazing at knowing what
Speaker 2: I need and knowing that I'm not doing it for
Speaker 2: everybody else, and I'm not performing to please a parent.
Speaker 2: But then if your child says, can you.
Speaker 4: Please come to a game, yeah, you can't apply that.
Speaker 3: You have to say yes.
Speaker 2: But I think what would be great is that you
Speaker 2: know in your heart, yes, I'm going to go to
Speaker 2: some of those games, but I don't have to go
Speaker 2: to all those games in order for this child to thrive.
Speaker 2: And that's the gift of the lesson that you got
Speaker 2: from your father.
Speaker 4: I love that.
Speaker 1: I so appreciate the nuance of that and the sensitivity
Speaker 1: of that, because I think that's where we trip ourselves up,
Speaker 1: where it's like, oh, that's the lesson I learned. I
Speaker 1: don't need to go to any games. They'll learn independence
Speaker 1: because that's what I learned. They are different, They're an
Speaker 1: old kid or whatever else it may be, and that
Speaker 1: lack of sensitivity and that lack of connectivity with them
Speaker 1: and noticing their temperament and noticing their environment that they
Speaker 1: need is often what happens. And I also find that
Speaker 1: this kind of what you were saying, this idea of
Speaker 1: when we're noticing these things in them. When we notice
Speaker 1: inadequacies or lacks in a child in what we perceive
Speaker 1: to be an inadequacy, it's because we're having this feeling
Speaker 1: of we're inadequate because we haven't been able to have them.
Speaker 4: Not have that issue.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I find that we're trying to solve it
Speaker 1: so that we can solve that inadequacy inside of ourselves,
Speaker 1: and then when it doesn't solve, and then we keep thinking, well, it.
Speaker 4: Must be me, it must be me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, what's me?
Speaker 4: How do you process that? Door?
Speaker 1: What's what's a healthy practice to have when that seems
Speaker 1: to be a recurring theme.
Speaker 2: You know, it's really interesting because as you were saying that,
Speaker 2: I was thinking about what really pisses me off? Like
Speaker 2: what what when do I get When do I disappoint
Speaker 2: myself as a mother? And it's when my kids are
Speaker 2: doing something that I feel is hard for them, or
Speaker 2: they get hurt or something is like they should be
Speaker 2: better at this because of my pain parenting and.
Speaker 3: I was the one who blew it.
Speaker 2: And so my anger is not at all at them,
Speaker 2: but it comes out it can come out at them,
Speaker 2: which is the only thing that sort of motivates me
Speaker 2: to deal with it because we just feel like such
Speaker 2: failures and a lot of the time it's just like,
Speaker 2: wait a second, can I also look at what's the
Speaker 2: benefit of having something different going on for this child?
Speaker 2: Like maybe it means that they're going to see things
Speaker 2: in a clearer way, or maybe it means that because
Speaker 2: this is bothering them, they're going to pay attention. Now
Speaker 2: I don't know what this is, but like, because you know,
Speaker 2: this is a silly example, but let's say itchy tags
Speaker 2: bother them, and there are sensory issues and all sorts
Speaker 2: of things, but we're not getting into that. But because
Speaker 2: itchy tags bother them, and they really like soft clothing,
Speaker 2: and there's You're like, I've raised this kid who can't
Speaker 2: function in the world, and now I'm mad at myself
Speaker 2: because I'm like, just deal with it. But if you
Speaker 2: could say, I wonder if this is what strength will
Speaker 2: this bring for them instead of looking at it as
Speaker 2: a weakness. Is it possibly just different than you? Because
Speaker 2: one of the things about temperament is also like what
Speaker 2: kind of flower are you? Because there's something that researchers
Speaker 2: have long looked at, which is it's called goodness. A
Speaker 2: fit and when a parent and a child has a
Speaker 2: good fit, their temperament matches well, they tend to do
Speaker 2: better and so they're not going to change. But we
Speaker 2: have more capacity to sort of pay attention to that.
Speaker 2: And so another thing that we can think about is like,
Speaker 2: what is my temperament? How do I respond to the environment,
Speaker 2: and why is that bothering me? And also if you
Speaker 2: feel like because I would say an example that happens
Speaker 2: a lot is if you have a kid who's more
Speaker 2: sensitive and you're just like kind of a dandelion. It's annoying.
Speaker 2: You know, you have to take a lot more care
Speaker 2: and a lot more time. But you could have one
Speaker 2: parent who's like, I'm so sensitive, they're so sensitive. I'm
Speaker 2: going to be so attuned that maybe it's too much,
Speaker 2: maybe maybe they won't learn, you know. So it's again
Speaker 2: back to paying attention then coming to the middle of
Speaker 2: it and saying, okay, one of us. Let's say you
Speaker 2: have two parents, and you can say one of us
Speaker 2: is able to notice those sensitive moments.
Speaker 3: We're able to sort of be attuned.
Speaker 2: So I'm going to pay less attention to that skill
Speaker 2: that I have so naturally, and I'm going to focus
Speaker 2: on not panicking when my kid is uncomfortable. But maybe
Speaker 2: the more dandelion like parent is going to say, I
Speaker 2: think I've got the not worrying so much about them
Speaker 2: and thinking they can handle it. So I'm going to
Speaker 2: focus on being more attuned to what's going on for them,
Speaker 2: and so we just like it's this, you know, constant
Speaker 2: sort of. It's not hard, though, it's I think it's interesting.
Speaker 2: I think if you look at it as curious and interesting,
Speaker 2: it's not like, oh my god, how much is there
Speaker 2: to think about? But it's just like in their small moments,
Speaker 2: you know, we're just kind of paying attention. And when
Speaker 2: you have that capacity to give attention to things, it's
Speaker 2: it's not that hard. It's what's hard is that we
Speaker 2: just want it to be right all the time and
Speaker 2: not hard. But the like when you let go of
Speaker 2: it and you're just like, all right, my tendency is this,
Speaker 2: I'm going to I'm going to go on the other
Speaker 2: side of it and challenge myself more often than not
Speaker 2: fifty five percent of the time. I think you can
Speaker 2: really develop incredible relationships with your partner with your kids
Speaker 2: because you're basically saying I'm not going to assume that
Speaker 2: you and I are the same person.
Speaker 3: I'm not telling the same story.
Speaker 2: I'm going to let you unfold as you are, and
Speaker 2: I'm going to give you a little bit of my
Speaker 2: you know, like what I can offer.
Speaker 1: Are there different forms of communicating with children that work
Speaker 1: at different ages in their journey? Like are there certain
Speaker 1: types of communication or forms of communication that are more
Speaker 1: effective between zero and five, ten and fifteen or anything
Speaker 1: like that, or how do you see that communication evolving
Speaker 1: over ages?
Speaker 2: I guess I think the first five years there's a
Speaker 2: lot more physical communication, even though of course we want
Speaker 2: to use our words, because the more exposure to language
Speaker 2: you have, the more likely you are to have, you know,
Speaker 2: sophisticated language. But physical touch is so effective and a
Speaker 2: lot of times we try to talk young children like
Speaker 2: out of feelings, and those are the times that I
Speaker 2: really want to encourage people to let their nervous system
Speaker 2: do the talking. So you just kind of put your
Speaker 2: hand on your heart, take a breath, remind yourself that
Speaker 2: whatever is going on for them, they're safe. They're just upset,
Speaker 2: and so you're lending them your nervous system, but you're
Speaker 2: not telling them you're not like you're safe, You're gonna
Speaker 2: be okay. You're just upset that you didn't get a
Speaker 2: blue cup and you really wanted it. You're more like
Speaker 2: reminding yourself of that quietly. You don't need to use words,
Speaker 2: and then over time you can use more words. But
Speaker 2: in general, we use too many words. I say, using
Speaker 2: so many words.
Speaker 4: Wow, that's interesting. And the reason for that.
Speaker 2: Is because our kids only have so much capacity to listen,
Speaker 2: and a lot of the things that they're learning from
Speaker 2: us are watching and borrowing our nervous system.
Speaker 3: So rather than saying.
Speaker 2: You know whether or not something is worthy of freaking
Speaker 2: out about or telling them how to feel, they could
Speaker 2: just see that it's not scaring you. So instead of saying,
Speaker 2: don't be scared, they can be scared, but they're watching
Speaker 2: you not be scared. And like a flight attendant, I mean,
Speaker 2: this is this shows you my issues.
Speaker 3: But like I am not a great flyer, though I
Speaker 3: fly a.
Speaker 2: Lot, and I always choose the seat close enough to
Speaker 2: the flight attendant because I just want to see how
Speaker 2: they're doing. And then if there's turbulence, I feel like
Speaker 2: they have enough experience in this world and this gig
Speaker 2: of flying that if it were worrisome, I would pick
Speaker 2: up on it. And it's the same thing. If our
Speaker 2: kids are looking at us, come on, like, so we
Speaker 2: don't have to say so many words, but we do
Speaker 2: have to pay attention to what's going on inside of us.
Speaker 1: That's such a good example. That is so interesting. I'm like,
Speaker 1: I don't I fly a lot. I'm not afraid of flying.
Speaker 1: But if there's bad turbulence, that's the first The first
Speaker 1: thing you do, right is I try and look at
Speaker 1: how they're doing. And it doesn't matter whether they turn
Speaker 1: on the thing and say, hey, there's turbulence. Pretty belts
Speaker 1: and I'm watching You're looking at their face and their
Speaker 1: body lengths so real. Yeah. Wow, that's such a great example.
Speaker 1: And you never think about that because you think it's
Speaker 1: the words that do the communication. And you're so right
Speaker 1: that often you don't believe the words or you don't
Speaker 1: feel the words exactly.
Speaker 2: And I want our kids to believe us, and so
Speaker 2: if we are going to use words, we have to
Speaker 2: believe them too. Like if you said no, no, no,
Speaker 2: I'm not upset, but you're upset, it's a mixed message
Speaker 2: and so over time your kids aren't quite they're not
Speaker 2: going to believe that they can read people properly because
Speaker 2: it's like, what's really going on? So I think part
Speaker 2: of it is fewer words, and then when you use words,
Speaker 2: tell the truth, I mean within developmental reason.
Speaker 1: Yes, I asked a couple of people around what questions
Speaker 1: they'd be interested in asking, and I think the two
Speaker 1: big things that came up, which I'm sure you hear
Speaker 1: a lot of we're disciplined and.
Speaker 4: Encouragement, like the two opposite things.
Speaker 1: So it's like, this seems like two common parents' activities
Speaker 1: are disciplining and trying to encourage or nurture, and so
Speaker 1: I want to talk about each of those.
Speaker 4: Let's start with disciplining.
Speaker 1: What is the what is the right approach to discipline
Speaker 1: in a way as you talk about creates resilience, Yeah,
Speaker 1: as opposed to I guess if we had a mission
Speaker 1: statement for disciplining, traditionally it would be to get things right,
Speaker 1: to do things well, to know what is good and bad.
Speaker 4: I feel those.
Speaker 1: Would be traditional metrics of discipline. Yeah, what would you
Speaker 1: say are the new metrics? And and how does healthy
Speaker 1: what does healthy disciplining look like to lead to resilience?
Speaker 2: Okay, I feel like discipline is so controversial, but I
Speaker 2: think of it as all feelings are welcome, all behaviors
Speaker 2: are not. So if I had to sum it up,
Speaker 2: and I think we do think of discipline as punishment
Speaker 2: versus teaching, and it's teaching, and if we're teaching how
Speaker 2: to move through the world, and if we're teaching kind
Speaker 2: of what's expected, what are boundaries and they're real, like
Speaker 2: they are for your emotional, physical safety, and you're not
Speaker 2: just doing them to control, but you actually are, like, no,
Speaker 2: this is a big deal because it actually influences your
Speaker 2: growth and development. It's not just for my entertainment. Then
Speaker 2: your kids trust you a little bit more and the
Speaker 2: relationship is stronger. But I think the key with discipline
Speaker 2: is not being afraid of how our kids react to
Speaker 2: it and having the strength of purpose and belief that
Speaker 2: if they do have a negative reaction to it, we
Speaker 2: can love them all the way through it, but we're
Speaker 2: not going to change our minds about it, because that's
Speaker 2: where it gets messy, is that. And I think this
Speaker 2: is partly my whole field and industry. If we're talking
Speaker 2: all about how important the relationship is, and then you
Speaker 2: have this limit that you set like, this is my
Speaker 2: expectation of you, and your child doesn't like it. This
Speaker 2: simply like you know, I take the phone away at
Speaker 2: night or the iPad or whatever, and your child is
Speaker 2: freaking out about it. Then you go, well, now I've
Speaker 2: messed with the relationship, and so I guess I should.
Speaker 2: They're crying and I need to get back in there,
Speaker 2: So okay, I'll give you more time or whatever it is.
Speaker 2: And that's where we get confused. I think if parents
Speaker 2: really understood that feelings aren't dangerous, that kids aren't going
Speaker 2: to say thank you for the boundaries and limits that
Speaker 2: we set, and that we set them with the intention
Speaker 2: of physical and emotional safety about not just them but
Speaker 2: other people. Like we're not just raising kids in a vacuum.
Speaker 2: They have to move through the world and think about
Speaker 2: community and other humans, and so what's comfortable for them
Speaker 2: might not be thoughtful to other people. And so it's
Speaker 2: that balance between be there for yourself, but also not
Speaker 2: to the extent that you can't you know that you're
Speaker 2: entitled and don't respect that there are other people in
Speaker 2: the world.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember, and I think my mom got that
Speaker 1: right from why I can at least follow that advice
Speaker 1: because I remember in my time was a bit easier
Speaker 1: because we were just playing video games, like that was
Speaker 1: the closest thing we had to a mobile phone, right,
Speaker 1: And it's I remember I'd get home from school and
Speaker 1: I was allowed to watch TV for thirty minutes and
Speaker 1: play video games for thirty minutes and after that to
Speaker 1: do homework.
Speaker 4: Then we'd have dinner and then whatever that, you know.
Speaker 1: And I remember that that hour was like something I
Speaker 1: looked forward to every single day because I'd get to
Speaker 1: watch whether it's The Simpsons or when I got older,
Speaker 1: like Fresh Prince of bel Air or whatever it was.
Speaker 1: And then and and those rules kind of changed over
Speaker 1: time where it's like, okay, now you get a bit
Speaker 1: more polaystation time or whatever else it may have been
Speaker 1: as I got older. But I now look back and
Speaker 1: really value the fact that I had these limits and
Speaker 1: rules and discipline because it's created a healthy level of
Speaker 1: discipline that I value today in me. And yeah, of course,
Speaker 1: when I was a kid, I didn't enjoy it, like
Speaker 1: I didn't want to do my homework and turn off
Speaker 1: the tea.
Speaker 4: Who does want to do that? But I feel like.
Speaker 1: It was It's interesting how yeah, I don't think my
Speaker 1: parents negotiated in the bogainy with that stuff. It was
Speaker 1: just like, no, that's just how it is. And as
Speaker 1: uncomfortable it probably was for them that I hated them
Speaker 1: at that time, you know, at the time, Yeah, they
Speaker 1: were willing to live with that, and.
Speaker 3: I guess it was for your benefit.
Speaker 1: Correct, And I guess that's the hard part, right. So
Speaker 1: we want you want your kid to love you and
Speaker 1: like you, and it's not fun not being liked by someone,
Speaker 1: especially when you're trying to help them, Yes, and you're
Speaker 1: trying to do good for them.
Speaker 3: No, it's true because it's like you.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's three kind of parenting styles outside of neglectful,
Speaker 2: which is not you know, that's a whole other thing.
Speaker 2: But there's like the permissive, which is best friend parenting,
Speaker 2: and it is so sensitive. They do like you and
Speaker 2: you can play as many video games as you want
Speaker 2: and all that's great, except for it you have no
Speaker 2: nobody's steering the ship, and so it actually can lead
Speaker 2: to anxiety and depression and a sense that you are
Speaker 2: too responsible for things. And the other side of it
Speaker 2: is authority Harran, where it's fear based and it's just rules,
Speaker 2: and it's just because I said so, but without the like,
Speaker 2: I know you really love doing this and I wouldn't
Speaker 2: stop you from doing it if I didn't know that
Speaker 2: it was better for your brain or whatever. So that's
Speaker 2: the middle path of like authoritative, where you're sensitive but
Speaker 2: you stick with your limits and boundaries because you know
Speaker 2: that that's going to benefit your kids. And then you
Speaker 2: start to because it's about our comfort, like how much
Speaker 2: can I handle of you being upset with the boundary
Speaker 2: that I set. It's not like anything else. It's really
Speaker 2: just looking at ourselves and saying, what is my capacity
Speaker 2: for handling the discomfort knowing that I've made this choice
Speaker 2: because it's for my child's benefit, because they're definitely not
Speaker 2: going to be like, thank.
Speaker 3: You so much.
Speaker 2: And so when people say, like, this strategy isn't working,
Speaker 2: I'm like, that's not the goal. The goal is and
Speaker 2: for your kids to say, oh, thanks for explaining.
Speaker 3: Now I'm just going to listen.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 4: That's so interesting, isn't it.
Speaker 1: It's like, as humans and as adults, we believe that
Speaker 1: getting something right means knowing the right thing to say
Speaker 1: and getting the right response, which is a response we
Speaker 1: want or agree with And the truth is, half the time,
Speaker 1: when you're doing the right thing, you rarely get a
Speaker 1: response in that moment that is aligned with what you want.
Speaker 1: Like I always say to for me, I feel like,
Speaker 1: you know, up until eleven, I was a pretty good
Speaker 1: kid and obedient, and then eleven to twenty one, I
Speaker 1: was totally the opposite, and my parents were wrong about everything,
Speaker 1: or maybe fourteen to twenty one, And then when you
Speaker 1: kind of like twenty five, you're like, yeah, you know what,
Speaker 1: my parents were good, Like, my parents were right about
Speaker 1: so many things, and I'm so grateful to them and
Speaker 1: all the rest of it. Like that kind of overarching
Speaker 1: feeling comes out, which, yeah, as a fifteen year old,
Speaker 1: you know, you didn't have And it's almost like we
Speaker 1: want them to display this, Like if my parents wanted
Speaker 1: me to display gratitude at fifteen, it was never going
Speaker 1: to happen.
Speaker 3: Right, No, that's a great example.
Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, right, but we all believe that we're the
Speaker 1: exception that our kids will do that. Yeah, Yet we
Speaker 1: were also the ungrateful kid. Right. It's almost I find
Speaker 1: it because I'm not a parent, I find it better
Speaker 1: to reflect on what I was like as a kid. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know my parents had good intentions. I know they
Speaker 1: tried their best. I still chose to do things they
Speaker 1: would never agree with, and I still chose to behave
Speaker 1: in ways. And it wasn't because they did anything wrong.
Speaker 1: It's just because I was a kid.
Speaker 3: You were being a developing human.
Speaker 2: Your description of yourself mapping with brain development, and it
Speaker 2: tracks right like eleven to fourteen. Maybe we're just beginning
Speaker 2: to experiment with pushing them away and push back and rebellion,
Speaker 2: and then you know, that's like puberty happens, hormones change.
Speaker 2: Then there's you know, fourteen to till you were in
Speaker 2: your twenties. Your prefrontal cortex doesn't fully develop till eighteen
Speaker 2: to twenty eight, and boys it's later, so it's usually
Speaker 2: not the eighteen and so you are more you know,
Speaker 2: they say all gas, no breaks, and so all of
Speaker 2: the things you're talking about are mapping with where your
Speaker 2: brain was at the time. And as an adolescent, you're
Speaker 2: about to leave the nest, and so you're supposed to
Speaker 2: start to learn how to reject and so it's this
Speaker 2: like push pull. Ideally, there's still moments of connection, and
Speaker 2: you know, maybe they didn't you know.
Speaker 3: It's possible.
Speaker 2: I don't know, but it's possible that they felt rejected
Speaker 2: by your rebellion and then you you know, you're pushing
Speaker 2: away then worked, and so they didn't come toward you
Speaker 2: and say like despite all of this, like we love
Speaker 2: you very much, or maybe they did, But those are
Speaker 2: times of tension, and you're supposed to by the time
Speaker 2: you're ready to go out into the world, you have
Speaker 2: to feel like you know, you shouldn't can And if
Speaker 2: it was just like cozy and delicious at all times
Speaker 2: at home and there was none of that tension, wouldn't
Speaker 2: be motivated to grow up and go on.
Speaker 3: So it all makes sense.
Speaker 1: That is so I've never heard it put that way,
Speaker 1: and I've never thought of it that way. That is
Speaker 1: such a fascinating point that in order to leave the
Speaker 1: pack you have to have a sense of rejection, autonomy
Speaker 1: and independence just.
Speaker 4: In the idea of development.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like there has to be that feeling of I
Speaker 1: can do it on my own and I will figure
Speaker 1: it out. And yah know, my my parents, I think honestly,
Speaker 1: were able individually with me to be like I always
Speaker 1: feel that my mom was able to be that person
Speaker 1: who I always feel even till this day is always
Speaker 1: there for me, but never smothering or controlling in that way.
Speaker 1: And so it's it's been a really like I know
Speaker 1: that if no matter what was to happen, I could
Speaker 1: always my mom would catch me. Yes, and I know that.
Speaker 1: But that's what's given me the confidence to not have
Speaker 1: to rely on it. Yeah, because it's it's there and
Speaker 1: I know that deeply. Yeah, it's just there. And and
Speaker 1: when my dad, he was a lot more aloof But
Speaker 1: like I said, that worked good for me because it
Speaker 1: helped me chart my own path and you know, build that,
Speaker 1: which is interesting. I wanted to dive in a couple
Speaker 1: of things that stood out to me from the book
Speaker 1: that I've dogg here here because I've got so many
Speaker 1: little parts that I loved that I wanted to talk about.
Speaker 1: One of the things I was thinking about is you
Speaker 1: talk about here the idea of having a parent who's
Speaker 1: helping us through hard times. And I was thinking, I
Speaker 1: think one of the hardest thing about a young person
Speaker 1: going through a hard time is they don't have the
Speaker 1: vocabulary to talk about it, even even adults, but kids especially, Yeah,
Speaker 1: even adults, like you know, it's hard even to ask
Speaker 1: your partner when they're going through a tough time, let
Speaker 1: alone a child that And I think with our children
Speaker 1: we try harder often than we try with our partners.
Speaker 4: But with your child, you're like, tell me what's going on,
Speaker 4: like I want to know.
Speaker 1: I'm here to help you, and they're like I don't know,
Speaker 1: Like go away, like I don't know what I'm going through. Right,
Speaker 1: walk us through that path and that process, because again
Speaker 1: we feel so rejected and so distant and it almost
Speaker 1: feels like we're failing. But the real issue here is
Speaker 1: we can't get them to open up, and therefore we
Speaker 1: can't help.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's so hard because if you push
Speaker 2: and for a lot of some kids are like disclosers,
Speaker 2: Like there are people I was like, let me tell you,
Speaker 2: let me tell you everything, mom, to the point where
Speaker 2: she was probably like I really don't need to know
Speaker 2: this much. But then there are the more closed in,
Speaker 2: closed up kids. And also it just depends on your
Speaker 2: vocabulary that you've grown up with, which is I think
Speaker 2: that going back to like, even when you have limits
Speaker 2: and rules, you want your kids to know, as you're
Speaker 2: describing your mom, that they have you. So if you
Speaker 2: do mess up, yeap, you can still go to them
Speaker 2: instead of being terrified.
Speaker 3: And so that's this.
Speaker 2: Weird thing where it's like, here are my expectations. Also,
Speaker 2: I want to name the fact that you're going to
Speaker 2: blow it sometimes and I want to be the person
Speaker 2: you come to, and that's something to say, not when
Speaker 2: they're struggling. And I think part of the reason why
Speaker 2: it's hard to get kids to open up is because
Speaker 2: we try to get in there when they're in the
Speaker 2: center of the struggle instead of like building the vocabulary
Speaker 2: and connection outside of it. So you have the conversations
Speaker 2: and you give the language when nobody's in the heat
Speaker 2: of the moment, so that when the heat of the
Speaker 2: moment comes, they already know that they can come to
Speaker 2: you and you can just say to them, I can
Speaker 2: tell something's going on. I'm here whenever or if ever,
Speaker 2: and then just leave space. A lot of times doing
Speaker 2: something with a kid who's not opening up, like going
Speaker 2: for a drive even so that you're not looking at
Speaker 2: each other. And you know, I can't think of any
Speaker 2: sport right now because I'm not super sporty, but you know,
Speaker 2: like playing, I'm like, what is it called? And one
Speaker 2: does a game with someone now, thank you. So you
Speaker 2: go play pickleball. You're playing pickleball, it's going to come up,
Speaker 2: but you want to just like put little tiny moments
Speaker 2: where you say, I'm askable, I'm tellable, and I'm not
Speaker 2: going to say anything. And one of the things that
Speaker 2: helps is that when your kids do tell you something,
Speaker 2: you say thank you for telling me before you have
Speaker 2: any other reaction, and that may be your only reaction,
Speaker 2: and then you give them a little space and then
Speaker 2: you say is there anything I can do? And it's
Speaker 2: not you know you can fix it, it's is there
Speaker 2: anything I can do to be supportive of you right now?
Speaker 2: And the other thing is like this is developmental too,
Speaker 2: but when you think about teenagers versus young kids with
Speaker 2: younger kids, you want to be This is going to
Speaker 2: sound ridiculous if you don't think about animals this way,
Speaker 2: but I do, so tell me if it resonates. But
Speaker 2: you kind of want to be a dog. You're wagging
Speaker 2: your tail when you're excited to see them. You're always
Speaker 2: there and you're like really enthusiastic and they need that.
Speaker 2: But then as they get older, imagine you're eleven to
Speaker 2: twenty five year old self you need to be a cat,
Speaker 2: so you're like a little You're there, you're always around,
Speaker 2: you're not you might you're touching their feet, like you're
Speaker 2: not overly on top of them. But if they're interested,
Speaker 2: they can come to you. But you're not going anywhere.
Speaker 2: So it's like it's this safe thing where you're there
Speaker 2: for them, but it's it's not so intense. And then
Speaker 2: they have the opportunity to open up a little bit,
Speaker 2: and when they do, you don't pounce like a dog.
Speaker 2: You stay a cat who's like welcoming the information, but
Speaker 2: not you know, saying oh my god. And then you know,
Speaker 2: because you don't want your kids to think you can't
Speaker 2: handle my truth.
Speaker 3: So I'm you're not the person to tell.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I feel that's the heart time to be
Speaker 1: the cat because you're scared about them getting involved in
Speaker 1: the worst, the worst things, like whether it's drugs or
Speaker 1: you know, addiction to social media or getting involved in
Speaker 1: the wrong circles, like that's the age at.
Speaker 4: Which it's going to happen.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's terrifying.
Speaker 4: So yeah, it's terrifying.
Speaker 1: So they're not and they're getting a driver's license. They
Speaker 1: can drink now, you know, as you know, as they
Speaker 1: get older, it's like it's almost like those are the
Speaker 1: times where you want to be more hands on.
Speaker 3: And you are fit.
Speaker 2: That's why I say you're physically present, Like I think
Speaker 2: toddlers and teenagers need you more present than anybody. But
Speaker 2: we think teenagers are like off on their own and whatever.
Speaker 2: But you're home, like if they're going to a party,
Speaker 2: you're home to greet them and look into their eyes,
Speaker 2: so you don't need to ask if they've been drinking,
Speaker 2: because you will know when you hug them and look
Speaker 2: in their eyes, and you can have a conversation in
Speaker 2: a different kind of way than if you're sort of
Speaker 2: like I'm out, you're out, you're older, you know, take
Speaker 2: an uber, don't drive drunk.
Speaker 3: I'll see you tomorrow.
Speaker 2: So I think your presence is important, but the sense
Speaker 2: that you're like kind of all over them verbally has
Speaker 2: you have to pull back a little bit, and it's terrifying.
Speaker 2: But if you've cultivated the relationship and you've set the
Speaker 2: expectations from you know about substances and social media and whatever,
Speaker 2: it's easier. But when something's really bothering them, what they
Speaker 2: need is to know that they don't have to explain
Speaker 2: it and they can just come to you and be sad.
Speaker 1: What's a good way to have that social media substance
Speaker 1: conversation because that sounds like the.
Speaker 4: Worst nightmare for any parent, I know. It's like, how
Speaker 4: do you have that conversation?
Speaker 1: And again it's like you can't define whether you're going
Speaker 1: to get the right answer back or whatever. So what
Speaker 1: kind of communication around those two specific things have been
Speaker 1: effective for parents or that you've seen.
Speaker 2: Okay, So one of the things, the most protective thing
Speaker 2: is that you just have the conversations the relationship, and
Speaker 2: so you're like, over time, it's never one conversation, and
Speaker 2: hopefully before they're teenagers, you're starting to talk about what
Speaker 2: these things are and what they do to your brain.
Speaker 2: And with substances, for example, we know that before certain
Speaker 2: ages your brain is so it's in such a growth
Speaker 2: mode that you don't want to mess with that growth
Speaker 2: by putting substances in it. So if they have any
Speaker 2: thoughts about future and hopes and goals, now's the time
Speaker 2: to talk about that and explain that, like at a
Speaker 2: certain point, you're going to be able to drink at
Speaker 2: a certain point depending on what state you're in You're
Speaker 2: going to be able to smoke pot, but right now
Speaker 2: your brain is at a vulnerable stage, and so it's
Speaker 2: a bigger decision now, and in this household, it's not
Speaker 2: on the table. And also, if you make a mistake,
Speaker 2: I'm the person you come to because your safety matters
Speaker 2: more to me than anything in the world. So I'm
Speaker 2: never going You're never going to regret that. So I
Speaker 2: think it's one of those things where it's both a limit,
Speaker 2: a boundary, and a relationship and you're paying attention, and
Speaker 2: so that's one the best friend. Parenting thing can be
Speaker 2: problematic because you're like, well, I'd rather them drink at home,
Speaker 2: or I'd rather them get their drugs from me, And
Speaker 2: this is we know from the literature. It's just not
Speaker 2: so you don't want them to feel like, you know,
Speaker 2: we've sort of created a world where we want our
Speaker 2: kids to make it's so easy that they don't even
Speaker 2: have to push back.
Speaker 3: You're like handing them. Did you see Mean Girls the
Speaker 3: movie the originally the original?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I love the reason you know, Tina fe
Speaker 2: walks not Tina fe Amy Poehler walks in like with
Speaker 2: with cocktails for all the girls and they're getting ready
Speaker 2: and they're just like ew, it's like you don't you
Speaker 2: You might crave connection and desperately want to give them
Speaker 2: the thing so that they're sticking with you, but you're
Speaker 2: still the parent, and there needs to be they need
Speaker 2: to know that it's hard to do those things, you know,
Speaker 2: like there are barriers so that you don't break the
Speaker 2: rules overtly. So let's say they do end up drinking.
Speaker 2: There's a difference between if your kid eventually ends up drinking,
Speaker 2: because you've really made it clear they can't, so maybe
Speaker 2: they've pushed it off. So now instead of at fourteen,
Speaker 2: they're seventeen, and there's a difference between drinking where they're
Speaker 2: just taking some SIPs of a white claw and binge drinking.
Speaker 2: And you talk about that with them, like I can't
Speaker 2: if I can smell it on you or see it,
Speaker 2: that's a problem. But there's there's a message in there,
Speaker 2: which is like, if you're going to make a mistake,
Speaker 2: make the mistake moderately. And those are all the different
Speaker 2: ways to sort of help lay the ground work for
Speaker 2: them to do as best they can to keep safe.
Speaker 2: But like you're not giving them the you know, the
Speaker 2: permission and the carte blanche to just kind of do whatever.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's such a challenging balance.
Speaker 3: It's so hard.
Speaker 1: It's so hard. Like I was thinking about it when
Speaker 1: I was a kid. If anything was off the table,
Speaker 1: that was the most attractive thing.
Speaker 3: In the world.
Speaker 2: And I think that's very important to acknowledge, is like,
Speaker 2: it's still going to be attractive. So if you set
Speaker 2: no limits, the other side of it is there needs
Speaker 2: to be something for a teenager to push back on.
Speaker 2: So if you're like, I'm going to use an example
Speaker 2: that's less fraut clothing. If you're like, you can wear
Speaker 2: whatever you want, I don't care. And you see that
Speaker 2: your child is going out to a party in like
Speaker 2: something very revealing and you don't say anything, then they're like,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna try it. I'm gonna I'm not even getting
Speaker 2: pushed back. This must not be revealing enough. I'm going
Speaker 2: to now wear something ridiculously like so revealing that it's
Speaker 2: offensive even to me. But I'm gonna do it because
Speaker 2: let's see what happens. And your parents says nothing, and
Speaker 2: at a certain point it's like the parent is you're
Speaker 2: supposed to put on a sweatshirt and hide it from
Speaker 2: your parents.
Speaker 3: Take the sweatshirt off and like know that this.
Speaker 2: Is not something that is like their dream, but that
Speaker 2: you can call them if you need them, and if
Speaker 2: we make things so it's a balance because you need
Speaker 2: to be rejecting of your parents. So make the limit
Speaker 2: tight enough that there's, you know, something to reject and
Speaker 2: there's something to do that's not dangerous.
Speaker 3: But also know your kid's temperament.
Speaker 2: And there are some kids where you have to frame
Speaker 2: things differently because they're just like, oh, your no is
Speaker 2: my yes. And I think that that's something to just
Speaker 2: pay attention to because everybody's different and every kid is
Speaker 2: going to be different.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I know. But that's a really interesting point about needing
Speaker 1: to reject something and needing to have tension on something,
Speaker 1: and it's almost like if you remove the tension.
Speaker 3: Completely, Yeah, what is there? What's there to do?
Speaker 4: What's there to do? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I know, that's that's fascinating. I want to talk at
Speaker 1: the flip side, we're talking about discipline, talking about encouraging,
Speaker 1: and I feel like the biggest thing people want to do,
Speaker 1: at least the route I find, is wanting to raise
Speaker 1: a confident child. Right. You don't want your children to
Speaker 1: feel insecure about the way they look, the way they think,
Speaker 1: the way they act. And that seems to be the
Speaker 1: biggest challenge of the day with social media and everything else.
Speaker 1: And so there's a real sense today of insecurity, envy, comparison,
Speaker 1: feeling less than How do you raise a confident human?
Speaker 2: Well, I think there are two parts of confidence that
Speaker 2: we can really cultivate, and then there's separately, like behavior
Speaker 2: patterns that we can help along, like turning off social media,
Speaker 2: like taking it away if it's really just like harming you.
Speaker 2: So if you notice that you have a fifteen year
Speaker 2: old and they're fixated on how certain things holding my
Speaker 2: hand up, they're fixated on what naturally they're going to be,
Speaker 2: but like some are more inclined than others, and it's
Speaker 2: really starting to get them down. Say to them, how's
Speaker 2: this is making you feel? Because what I'm noticing is
Speaker 2: you're feeling worse and worse when you look at this.
Speaker 2: So let's figure out a limit and I'll help you
Speaker 2: because I'll just take the phone away even when you're
Speaker 2: feeling like, oh, I really want to.
Speaker 3: Look at this.
Speaker 2: But it comes from this real compassion and then the
Speaker 2: two things for confidence that we can do. The first
Speaker 2: is remember that competence builds confidence, not praise, like telling
Speaker 2: you they're amazing is not going to make them feel
Speaker 2: like they're amazing. It's the competence, like helping them develop
Speaker 2: the skills. And those skills don't have to be that
Speaker 2: you're like a star violinists or tennis player. It can
Speaker 2: be that you know how to cook or put the
Speaker 2: dishes away, you know, just just.
Speaker 3: A functioning individual.
Speaker 2: And so we tend to do everything for our kids,
Speaker 2: even if they're capable of doing it, but then praise
Speaker 2: them as if that's building the confidence. And so I
Speaker 2: think that's one thing, and the other thing is helping
Speaker 2: them understand how they feel and how they are reading
Speaker 2: the room, because then you start to go like, okay,
Speaker 2: I can trust myself, and that is part of confidence
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 1: That competence and praise peace, that's huge. I love the
Speaker 1: way you said that because I've often thought about that
Speaker 1: with so many of my friends, because I was quite
Speaker 1: as shy and I would say, oh, somewhat, I was
Speaker 1: in skerew about my weight growing up and to some
Speaker 1: degree the color of my skin to like experiencing racism
Speaker 1: growing up and things like that.
Speaker 4: And so.
Speaker 1: When I went to high school my secondary school is
Speaker 1: we call it in England, my parents forced me to
Speaker 1: go to public speaking and drama school and that was
Speaker 1: somewhat of my worst nightmare and parts, but it was
Speaker 1: really amazing because it built a competency that then became
Speaker 1: really interesting and useful as I came to my teens
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, I felt like I had
Speaker 1: a skill that I could use and implement and it
Speaker 1: was really helpful in so many ways, and of course
Speaker 1: has gone on to change my life. But I look
Speaker 1: at that and I often tell some of my friends
Speaker 1: who were parents, and I'll be like, I promise you
Speaker 1: just work on a skill, because that changed my life.
Speaker 1: And they can't imagine a world in which I was
Speaker 1: shy or that I was insecure, because they're like, oh, Jay,
Speaker 1: you must have you know, and I'm like, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: I promise you, Like it was developing skills that gave
Speaker 1: me confidence in myself. And You're right, they start really
Speaker 1: small of you know, you have a skill, like I
Speaker 1: know my wife has the skill of she's really good
Speaker 1: at like techy stuff around the house, which I'm horrific
Speaker 1: at and she like can fix the TV and fix
Speaker 1: this and that, and like she can do that because
Speaker 1: her and her dad used to do that and she
Speaker 1: has a competence around it, and that as a kid
Speaker 1: was something she knew she was good at. And I
Speaker 1: think it's so interesting how we often think that even
Speaker 1: bonding time with our children has to be social. H
Speaker 1: And of course that's awesome, and I wonder I actually
Speaker 1: want to ask you about that, like how it because
Speaker 1: you're it's interesting what you said. And obviously my parents
Speaker 1: outsource the skill development because my dad would hate teaching
Speaker 1: me math because that was not a good good My
Speaker 1: dad's really good at math and I'm not so good,
Speaker 1: so it was great to outsource it to another teacher.
Speaker 1: But how do you see that parent child relationship based
Speaker 1: on social versus skill development and what's good to outsource,
Speaker 1: what's good to in house?
Speaker 2: Well, I think if you have to know yourself, like
Speaker 2: if you're going to get frustrated with your kid because
Speaker 2: they are not as easy to explain math to, you're
Speaker 2: probably not the best person to help them along with
Speaker 2: the math. But if you have something that you see
Speaker 2: even a kernel of interest in your kid, like they're
Speaker 2: interested in seeing how you fix the TV. Spend the
Speaker 2: time helping them learn how to do that, like you're
Speaker 2: it's a shared experience together.
Speaker 3: It's a shared skill building even learn how to do it.
Speaker 2: That teaches them growth mindset, like I'm not really good
Speaker 2: at this, but it looks like for first of all,
Speaker 2: it's great if your kids actually have a skill like
Speaker 2: mine are obviously better at tech than I am because
Speaker 2: they're in it.
Speaker 3: They this is their native tongue.
Speaker 2: So my seventeen year old is for sure the chief
Speaker 2: technology officer of the family, and like anything tech that happens,
Speaker 2: I'm like, please fix this. But it's interesting for her.
Speaker 2: And if that's interesting for her, what I could do,
Speaker 2: I don't. But what I could do is say, teach
Speaker 2: me how to get better at this, tell me what
Speaker 2: you know. And one other way to get really confident
Speaker 2: is to teach, like, teach what you know. That's why
Speaker 2: it's great when you know older kids in school teach
Speaker 2: the younger kids.
Speaker 3: It's so awesome.
Speaker 2: So that is the other side of skill building, is
Speaker 2: like allowing them to then, you know, show you what
Speaker 2: they've learned earned and really pay attention to it. And
Speaker 2: you know, checking in with what they're interested in. The
Speaker 2: way attention works is you have to care, you have
Speaker 2: to be interested. So if you're trying to get your
Speaker 2: kid interested in something and skilled at violin and they
Speaker 2: just are not interested, it's not gonna It's the thing
Speaker 2: that you're looking for is for them to know. Whether
Speaker 2: it's bead making or tennis or violin, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2: It's the act of working on something and getting better
Speaker 2: at it that.
Speaker 3: Builds the confidence.
Speaker 4: And it doesn't matter what it is.
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter. So we have to like let go
Speaker 2: of that investment. I mean, certainly there are going to
Speaker 2: be some things because it's just what we're going for.
Speaker 2: Like I didn't know how to play tennis growing up,
Speaker 2: and I am so annoyed, Like it just bothers me
Speaker 2: so much. Socially, it bothers me as a grown woman.
Speaker 2: I'm like, I can't hang, I can't do the fun
Speaker 2: things my friends are doing. So I force my kids
Speaker 2: to play tennis, not competitively, but just like you need
Speaker 2: to know how to do this. But and so, so
Speaker 2: I think you get a pass for a couple of
Speaker 2: those things, and you just have to acknowledge your kids like,
Speaker 2: I don't care if you're interested in this is a
Speaker 2: me problem, not a you problem, but in general, like
Speaker 2: let their interest lead.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, no I did. I can relate to that
Speaker 4: so well.
Speaker 1: My parents forced me to learn piano and it was
Speaker 1: the most At that time. I was like, I hate this,
Speaker 1: and now I'm so sad because I think the piano
Speaker 1: is one of the most beautiful instruments.
Speaker 4: And I look back and going, God, they were right.
Speaker 4: Why did I throw it away?
Speaker 1: And and you're going to have those natural experiences. They
Speaker 1: allowed me to quit because I was so hell bent
Speaker 1: on no, I don't want to do this, and they
Speaker 1: saw that, and so they allowed that to happen.
Speaker 4: And now I regret it.
Speaker 3: And so but that's okay, yeah, because now you'll just remember.
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly exactly.
Speaker 1: It's it's it's interesting how I feel like it's such
Speaker 1: a I've been reflecting on, hopefully at one point, being
Speaker 1: a parent in my life a lot, and all I
Speaker 1: keep coming back to is this. A few things that
Speaker 1: keep coming to me are humility, releasing control, and the
Speaker 1: acceptance that I don't always know what's best or right,
Speaker 1: and allowing for someone else to evolve and grow just
Speaker 1: as I've had to despite my parents' best interests, And
Speaker 1: that sounds like the most beautiful lesson and the biggest
Speaker 1: challenge at the same time, because it's the thing you
Speaker 1: do want to control the most, yet can't.
Speaker 2: Oh, I know, it's the thing you want to control
Speaker 2: the most because it's the most important thing. And it's like,
Speaker 2: if we can accept that we can only control ourselves,
Speaker 2: our parenting flourishes.
Speaker 1: And that, in one sense, is the harder answer, because
Speaker 1: we always think we can change things outside of ourselves
Speaker 1: quicker than we think we need to change.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is the craziest thing about my job is
Speaker 2: that so much of it is and coologists in whatever
Speaker 2: area of psychology they're in, because there's so many different branches.
Speaker 2: And I'm not a clinical psychologist, but even clinical psychologists
Speaker 2: who are sitting, you know, a lot of times they're
Speaker 2: meant to be working with children, but what ends up
Speaker 2: happening is they're working with the adults. I'm only working
Speaker 2: with the adults, but I think it's because adults can
Speaker 2: work on themselves and control themselves, and we have this
Speaker 2: inclination to want to control our kids.
Speaker 3: Again.
Speaker 2: It's all with the most love and hope but we can't,
Speaker 2: and so that's not you know, like that's not the
Speaker 2: best use of our energy.
Speaker 4: Lisa has been such a joy talking to you today.
Speaker 1: Honestly, I feel like I've learned so much, I've reflected
Speaker 1: so much, and I want everyone who's listening and watching
Speaker 1: to know we have simply skimmed the surface of some
Speaker 1: of the insane and incredible topics and methods they are
Speaker 1: inside this book. If you've been listening and watching so far,
Speaker 1: make sure you go and order The Five Principles of
Speaker 1: Parenting by doctor Eliza Pressman, host of the Raising Good
Speaker 1: Humans podcast as well Alisa. We end every on Purpose
Speaker 1: episode with a final five and these have to be
Speaker 1: answered in one word to one sentence maximum.
Speaker 4: So these are.
Speaker 1: Your final five The question. The first question is what
Speaker 1: is the best parenting advice you've ever heard, received, or given?
Speaker 3: All feelings are welcome, all behaviors are not.
Speaker 1: What is the second question? What is the worst parenting
Speaker 1: advice you've ever received or heard?
Speaker 3: You just want your kids to be happy?
Speaker 1: Question number three, what's something you used to believe to
Speaker 1: be true around parenting, but recently you've changed your mind
Speaker 1: about that?
Speaker 3: I would be better?
Speaker 4: Wow, that's beautiful. That's beautiful. Question BEFO for.
Speaker 1: If you could encourage every parent to build one skill
Speaker 1: that would help them become a better parent for good humans?
Speaker 4: What would that one.
Speaker 2: Skill be one of the five that makes you the
Speaker 2: most uncomfortable of relationship reflection, regulation, rules, and repair.
Speaker 4: Yes, love that.
Speaker 1: And fifth and final question, if you could create one
Speaker 1: law that everyone in the world had to follow, what
Speaker 1: would it be?
Speaker 3: Hunt for the good?
Speaker 4: That's beautiful. I love that, Doctor Eliza Pressman. Everyone.
Speaker 1: The Five Principles of Parenting is the book. Go and
Speaker 1: grab your copy right now. We'll put the link in
Speaker 1: the comment section, and please tag me and Alisa on Instagram,
Speaker 1: on TikTok on Twitter. Let us know, sorry X, let
Speaker 1: us know what is resonating with you, what you're trying,
Speaker 1: what's working for you. I think, as you saw today,
Speaker 1: Alisa is really giving us a lot of stuff to
Speaker 1: play with, stuff to interact with. There's no right or
Speaker 1: wrong way, There's no good or bad way here. It's
Speaker 1: about figuring out how sensitive you can be, how close
Speaker 1: you can get to the human in front of you,
Speaker 1: how you can learn to balance and play that middle path,
Speaker 1: and so as you are trying all of this great
Speaker 1: insight out. Please do share it with us. We'd love
Speaker 1: to see it. I'd love to thank you again, Elisa
Speaker 1: for doing this, for being present here with me today.
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed sharing this energy with you, and I
Speaker 1: really believe this is going to help a lot of people.
Speaker 3: So thank you so much, Gosh, thank you so much.
Speaker 3: This has been incredible.
Speaker 4: Thank you.
Speaker 1: If you love this episode, you'll enjoy my interview with
Speaker 1: doctor Daniel Ahman on how to change your life by
Speaker 1: changing your brain.
Speaker 5: If we want a healthy mind, it actually starts with
Speaker 5: a healthy brain.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 5: I've had the blessing or the curse to scam over
Speaker 5: a thousand convicted felons and over one hundred murderers, and
Speaker 5: their brains are very damage