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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 2: the studio ad staff, give.

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Speaker 3: You, guys, the best independent coverage that is possible.

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Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means

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Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that,

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Speaker 2: Let's get to the showing. Good morning, everybody, Happy Tuesday.

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Speaker 3: We have an amazing show for everybody today, Extra amazing.

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Speaker 1: Christ Yes, extra amazing. Get to that in just a moment.

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Speaker 1: Lots of big breaking news this morning. So we have

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Speaker 1: the latest fallout, new comments from Putin on that whole

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Speaker 1: attempt to coup wasn't an attempted coup. We'll get into

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Speaker 1: all of that. We also have some response from the

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Speaker 1: White House with regards to new hunter By allegations and

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Speaker 1: interesting commentary from the View that we could not resist

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Speaker 1: bringing to you as well. Big week for Supreme Court decisions,

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Speaker 1: expecting some huge ones. We're going to preview those. This

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Speaker 1: comes amid new allegations of corruption with regards to Justice Alito.

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Speaker 1: Break that down for you. Black Rock, which has been

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Speaker 1: a leader and so called ESG. They're CEO saying they're

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Speaker 1: taking a step back from that, saying he's actually ashamed

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Speaker 1: of having been associated with it. So that's kind of interesting,

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Speaker 1: could have some big implications. Fox News totally reshuffling their

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Speaker 1: primetime lineup after Tucker Carlson's firing slash exit, and excited

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Speaker 1: for our guest today, Josh Dizaza, who is talking about

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Speaker 1: the human costs of AI. While we see just the

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Speaker 1: tech part, there are actually a lot of human beings

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Speaker 1: behind the scenes that make it all work. And so

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Speaker 1: he has a new report on all of that. But

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Speaker 1: we also have some big news here at breaking points. Guys,

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Speaker 1: we did it. We did it million subs and actually

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Speaker 1: actually we kind of shot by. We did kind of amazing.

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Speaker 3: You guys really do step up whenever whenever.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 2: Here's the thing we realized, we never asked anybody to

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Speaker 2: ever subscribe.

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Speaker 3: We usually to the YouTube channel.

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Speaker 1: We usually just do the premium sub ask.

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Speaker 2: It's going to look really nice behind you, Crystal. I've

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Speaker 2: already been warned that the plaque is one point five

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Speaker 2: times bigger than the silver plaque.

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Speaker 3: It's going to be pretty.

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Speaker 1: Size to take up a whole shop for sure.

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Speaker 3: Back there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so as you can see, I think probably over

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Speaker 2: we'll have to figure it out.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, but it's a good problem to have.

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Speaker 3: It's a good problem to have whose head it will

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Speaker 3: go behind.

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Speaker 1: We're going to have some longer reflections on the smilestone,

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Speaker 1: what it means to us, what I hope it means

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Speaker 1: to all of you guys who supported us along this journey.

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Speaker 1: As of right now, we're at one million, twenty one

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Speaker 1: hundred and sixty three, which makes me happy because one

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Speaker 1: of my greatest nightmares would be the like across the.

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Speaker 3: Red right and then and then then dip below.

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Speaker 1: It was so embarrassing. So I feel comfy that we're

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Speaker 1: going to be good.

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Speaker 2: We don't encourage now, don't don't give people any idea

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Speaker 2: that's true, that is true.

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Speaker 1: I'm just manifesting my greatest fears here. But anyway, like

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Speaker 1: I said, we're on our reflections on this later in

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Speaker 1: the show, so stay tuned for that, a little bit

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Speaker 1: of a retrospective. That are amazing producers who helped us

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Speaker 1: get to the spot put together for us. So we'll

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Speaker 1: get to that towards the end of the show. But

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Speaker 1: before we jump into the topics I just laid out

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Speaker 1: for the day. We also just had some breaking news

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Speaker 1: last night. You guys know, obviously the latest Trump indictment

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Speaker 1: has to do with his handling of those classified documents.

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Speaker 1: One of the key pieces of evidence that we know

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Speaker 1: that investigators were able to obtain was a tape in

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Speaker 1: which he was said to have been basically bragging about, hey,

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Speaker 1: here's some classified documents. See these classified documents, and even

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Speaker 1: go so far as to say when I was president,

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Speaker 1: I could have declassified these, but I didn't. They're still secret,

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Speaker 1: they're still confidential. CNN was able to get their hands

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Speaker 1: on that actual tape, on that recording, so we are

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Speaker 1: able to listen to it this morning and get a

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Speaker 1: sense of how that all went down.

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Speaker 3: Let's say a listen, these are bad shick people.

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Speaker 1: That was your cue, you know, against you.

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Speaker 5: When Millie's talking about, oh, you're going to try to

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Speaker 5: they were trying to do that before you even were.

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Speaker 6: Born in that's right, well with Millie, let me see that.

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Speaker 7: I'll show you an example.

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Speaker 6: He said that I wanted to attack an Isn't it amazing?

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Speaker 6: I have a big pilot heap is this name just

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Speaker 6: killing my blood.

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Speaker 4: This was him.

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Speaker 6: They presented me. This is off the record, but they

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Speaker 6: presented me this. This was him, This was the Defense

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Speaker 6: Department in him. We looked at him.

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Speaker 7: This was him.

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Speaker 6: This wasn't done by me. This was him. All sorts

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Speaker 6: of stuff. Pages were on over and let's see, yere

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Speaker 6: I just isn't that amazing? This totally wins my case?

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Speaker 6: You know, except it is like, high God, there's a

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Speaker 6: secret for me. Look at this. You're attack And.

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Speaker 1: Hillar even put that out all the time.

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Speaker 6: She sent it to Anthony Wiers By the way, isn't

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Speaker 6: that incredible?

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Speaker 3: God?

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Speaker 6: Was just because we're talking about it, and you know

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Speaker 6: he said he wanted to attack, and what.

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Speaker 7: The military given to me.

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Speaker 6: I think we can probably this president Now I can't,

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Speaker 6: but this is this is so cool. We heard and

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Speaker 6: you probably almost didn't believe me, but now you believe me.

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Speaker 6: It's incredible, right, It brings him so.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's classic.

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Speaker 3: That is the most vintage Trump.

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Speaker 1: Right, quintessential Trump that you can imagine, complete with the

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Speaker 1: like I.

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Speaker 3: Remember my favorite was bring the cokes in please.

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Speaker 2: That that is actually I've literally witnessed the diet coke

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Speaker 2: button more than a couple of times. If anybody is interested,

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Speaker 2: that's exactly how they talk to him.

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Speaker 3: Behind the scenes. They constantly have to be.

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Speaker 1: So a fantic. Oh it's I mean, that part is

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Speaker 1: humiliating for whoever that's not it's just so embarrassing. But okay, So,

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Speaker 1: first of all, it's kind of hilarious because it's classic Trump.

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Speaker 1: Second of I do find it ironic that he has

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Speaker 1: this line in there where he's like, this totally wins

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Speaker 1: my case, you know. And of course he's talking about

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Speaker 1: he thinks that General Milly had claimed that Trump wanted

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Speaker 1: to go to war with a run. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if that's true or not. I do know that he

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Speaker 1: took some very hawkish and provocative actions with regard to Iran,

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Speaker 1: including pulling out of the nuclear deal, but we'll put

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Speaker 1: that to the side. And what he's showing these individuals

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Speaker 1: in his office purportedly are war plans that the Pentagon

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Speaker 1: has developed for directly attacking Iran. Now, listen, he seems

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Speaker 1: to think that this means that Milly himself was directly

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Speaker 1: in favor of attacking Ran. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't.

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Speaker 1: But he also seems to not understand that the Pentagon

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Speaker 1: draws up plans for like literally every possibility and contingency.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, I'm not saying that the Pentagon isn't hawkish

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Speaker 1: with regard to Iran, but that piece is funny. But

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Speaker 1: I mean, listen, it's just as devastating to his case

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Speaker 1: as it was reported to be in the media. And

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Speaker 1: that's really the key takeaway. He says, these are classified,

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Speaker 1: secret documents. He says, I could have declin classified them,

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Speaker 1: but I didn't. You hear the papers literally shuffling in

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Speaker 1: the background as he shows them around, tells people to

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Speaker 1: take a look at him. So that's what we got.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And the biggest problem for Trump ultimately is that

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Speaker 2: he admitted that.

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Speaker 3: They weren't declassified at the time.

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Speaker 2: And you know, the bigger problem is I've seen a

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Speaker 2: lot of legal analysis around executive privilege, about the supreme

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Speaker 2: power of the president, about the ability to declassify. But

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Speaker 2: Trump has two problems on his side. Number One, whenever

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Speaker 2: he was president, he tweeted that there was a declassification crystal.

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Speaker 2: His Justice Department then argued in a court of law

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Speaker 2: that that did not count him simply waving his hands

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Speaker 2: and saying these are declassified. They said that only declassification

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Speaker 2: can happen through a formal review process. So number one,

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Speaker 2: it undercuts his argument. Number two, and this is actually

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Speaker 2: the biggest problem is that remember, under the terms of

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Speaker 2: the indictment, this is a very simple process crime. As

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Speaker 2: in they said, these are classified documents. He can't contest

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Speaker 2: now the classification regime on that based on the US government.

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Speaker 3: It's possible this might go to the.

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Speaker 2: Supreme Court, but the Supreme Court is going to heavily

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Speaker 2: rely on existing US government procedure and also under the

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Speaker 2: Trump and the Biden administration. And then finally, in terms

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Speaker 2: of the obstruction, given the further tapes and evidence that

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Speaker 2: we've seen here before in terms of what was listed

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Speaker 2: out in the indictment about his ability also in the

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Speaker 2: Fox News interview when he specifically admitted to holding on

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Speaker 2: to some things after they were given over, that actually

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Speaker 2: validates some of the obstruction charges. So Trump's best defense,

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Speaker 2: Crystal is just political is I'm being politically persecuted.

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Speaker 3: This is a political prosecution.

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Speaker 2: This is illegitimate and hoping that you can get somebody

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Speaker 2: on that South Florida jury to agree. And let's be real,

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Speaker 2: I mean that is very much a possibility, or maybe

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Speaker 2: a hung jury or a mistrial something like that. But

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Speaker 2: the issue, the biggest problem is that within the merits

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Speaker 2: of the way that the raw is written, it is

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Speaker 2: a very very difficult case for him right now, and

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Speaker 2: that tape is exactly why it so hard.

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Speaker 1: Probably his best chance to avoid these charges was for

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Speaker 1: them to not be filed at all, for him to

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Speaker 1: sort of bully or convince or cajole or persuade the

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Speaker 1: Department of Justice to not file these indictments because listen,

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Speaker 1: based on the evidence that is available in the public sphere,

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Speaker 1: and listen entitled to mount his own defense, and we'll

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Speaker 1: hear what they have to say about it. They haven't

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Speaker 1: said much about it thus far, but it looks like

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Speaker 1: a pretty open and shutcase. So that means that his

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Speaker 1: most rational logical strategy is the political to hope that

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Speaker 1: he makes it back into the White House and is

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Speaker 1: able to pardon himself. Just quickly, before we jump into

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Speaker 1: the latest with regards to Russia, there were a couple

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Speaker 1: of other developments with regards to Trump and his potential

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Speaker 1: legal trouble. As we've been saying, this is probably not

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Speaker 1: the last indictment that he is even going to face.

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Speaker 1: Their continuing investigations both in Fulton County and also Jack

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Speaker 1: Smith continues to investigate what happened on January sixth and

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Speaker 1: fake elector schemes with regards to that, you had half

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Speaker 1: a dozen secret Secret Service agents I'm running from NBC

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Speaker 1: News right now have testified before the grand jury that

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Speaker 1: will decide whether to indict former President Trump for his

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Speaker 1: alleged role in the January sixth, twenty twenty one riot

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Speaker 1: at the Capitol. In addition to that, you also had

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Speaker 1: a number of fake electors who took a deal for

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Speaker 1: immunity in order to testify. With regard to that January

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Speaker 1: sixth probe as well, I've seen a lot of experts.

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Speaker 1: I don't have any special knowledge of this, but I

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Speaker 1: have seen a lot of experts who say that charges

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Speaker 1: are very likely coming on this front as well. And

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Speaker 1: you know that's before we even get into what's going

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Speaker 1: on down in Fulton County, where I think charges are

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Speaker 1: expected to So that's the lay of the land. The

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Speaker 1: judge who was in charge of the document's case said

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Speaker 1: the trial is set to start on August fourteenth. Hard

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Speaker 1: to say what the ultimate timeline will be how long

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Speaker 1: this will unfold. Certainly the Trump side is going to

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Speaker 1: try to slow things down and keep things going as

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Speaker 1: long as possible to try to get to the election

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Speaker 1: before any of this is resolved. That sager, that's what

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Speaker 1: we know this Mangy, Yeah, that's what we know.

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Speaker 2: And we'll keep everybody updated while this is all goes on.

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Speaker 2: But the tape itself is just more evidence of he's

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Speaker 2: got some problems. That are he's got some legal trouble

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Speaker 2: at the very very least. Okay, let's go ahead to

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Speaker 2: the next part here.

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Speaker 3: This is important.

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Speaker 2: Putin has actually broken his silence finally on the Wagner

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Speaker 2: coup and has given us a little bit more information

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Speaker 2: about what the official response from the regime will be.

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Speaker 3: Let's go and put this up there on the screen.

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Speaker 2: So here were some of the bullet points that were

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Speaker 2: compiled here by an Estonian blogger. I have gone and

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Speaker 2: I looked at the official translation. It does look to

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Speaker 2: be it does look to be accurate. So he says, quote,

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Speaker 2: any attempts to start a mutiny will fail. Our mutiny

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Speaker 2: would have been suppressed anyway. Perpetrators must have known this

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Speaker 2: by betraying their country. They also lied and forced others

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Speaker 2: to kill their soldiers. All enemies abroad and national traders

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Speaker 2: wanted us to fight each other.

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Speaker 3: And they failed.

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Speaker 2: The majority of Wagner commanders are patriots. They were used

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Speaker 2: covertly against their brothers in arms. I have made steps

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Speaker 2: now to avoid large bloodshed. This needed time, including letting

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Speaker 2: those who made a mistake change their mind and see

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Speaker 2: the consequences that will lead to Interesting in terms of well,

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Speaker 2: it's interesting too about whether this was a negotiation or

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Speaker 2: whether this was a very heavy hand that Putin made

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Speaker 2: it known via Lukashenko to pregosion behind the scenes of Hey, man,

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Speaker 2: like you and everybody you're with, you're about to get vaporized.

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Speaker 2: So it's like, is that something that you want to choose.

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Speaker 2: Let's be very real here, I'm gonna kill you and

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna kill your entire family. And that was why

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Speaker 2: the FSB had opened that investigation investigation against him. The

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Speaker 2: reason why that this silence broken and all of that

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Speaker 2: everybody's reading between the tea leaves is that let's put

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Speaker 2: this up there, please on the screen. The Financial Times

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Speaker 2: had a decent write up on this is that at

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Speaker 2: the same time, though crystal. There have been signs of

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Speaker 2: weakness from behind the Russian curtain. You've seen that the

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Speaker 2: FSB dropped its investigation now the FSB's successor to the KGB,

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Speaker 2: the Security Services dropped its investigation into Progosion. That was

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Speaker 2: very much seen almost as like it's like a pass right,

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Speaker 2: you know, he no longer is an active wanted criminal

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Speaker 2: inside of Russia. There are reports now actually coming out

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Speaker 2: this morning that Progosian has actually landed in Minsk, in Belarus,

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Speaker 2: you know, verifying some of the exile reporting now that

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Speaker 2: had come out there Lukashenko and some of the behind

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Speaker 2: the scenes in terms of how this will all happen,

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Speaker 2: is that it seems that the Wagner forces themselves will

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Speaker 2: then be drafted into the Russian Ministry of Defense and

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Speaker 2: come under the full command and control. So overall this

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Speaker 2: is a total loss for Progosion. But then on the

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Speaker 2: Putin side, he did have to give something. The man

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Speaker 2: who challenged his authority and came within two hundred kilometers

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Speaker 2: has lived to see another day.

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Speaker 3: Now, will he see a few.

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Speaker 2: More days, We'll see. Will he live to the end

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Speaker 2: of his days in a nice comfy bed. Personally, I

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Speaker 2: doubt it, but still, I mean, if you are an oligarch,

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Speaker 2: people like Oleg Deripaska and others who have voiced not

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Speaker 2: anti war sentiments, but they've made, you know, kind of

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Speaker 2: statements that cast in that direction, you got to feel

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Speaker 2: a hell of a lot more in Bolden now because

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Speaker 2: previly they thought you were you're a dead man if

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Speaker 2: you come somewhere even close to this and you've literally

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Speaker 2: had an arm mutiny and the man lived to tell

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Speaker 2: the tale.

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Speaker 1: Maybe, I mean, it's it's interesting because there are people

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Speaker 1: who have you know, been put in prison for posting

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Speaker 1: anti war sentiments on Facebook, right, But then you have Progosian,

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Speaker 1: who you know, directly challenging the Putin regime marching to

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Speaker 1: Moscow and by the way, killing some number of Russian

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Speaker 1: soldiers and downing planes in the process, who was let

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Speaker 1: off the hook? So you said this right away, Soccer,

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Speaker 1: which is very likely you're going to have a greater

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Speaker 1: crackdown on descent domestically because you know, Putin is showing

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Speaker 1: weakness right now and really can't afford that. I thought

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Speaker 1: it was really interesting talking to Yegor yesterday his assessment

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Speaker 1: for what it's worth, and he's you know, he lives

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Speaker 1: in Moscow. He's sort of socialist writer, thinker, analysts, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: His view is, in the short term, it won't really

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Speaker 1: change anything. As you said, Sager, Wagner is being incorporated

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Speaker 1: into the minstry of defense, Progosion is going away, Putin

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Speaker 1: is reasserting control over more or less the entire military.

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Speaker 1: That you still have the Cheschens out there, so that's

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Speaker 1: another matter. But he's more or less asserting reasserting control

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Speaker 1: all of the top level people as far as we know,

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Speaker 1: including Shoygu who Progotionion was, you know, really despised him

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Speaker 1: and going after relentlessly. All of them seemed to be

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Speaker 1: keeping their jobs for now as best we can tell.

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Speaker 1: So short term may not change a lot. Long term,

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Speaker 1: you know, is this the crack that ends the regime here?

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Speaker 1: It's impossible to say. To go back to what Pregotioni

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Speaker 1: said in his eleven minute statement, which was kind of funny.

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Speaker 1: I mean, first of all, he said that their march

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Speaker 1: towards the capital, and the way they were able to

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Speaker 1: do this so effectively and in his view, like barely

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Speaker 1: any blood spilled, et cetera, was a master class. That

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Speaker 1: was his words in the way that the assault on

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Speaker 1: Caves should have gone from the beginning, and the assault

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Speaker 1: on Ukraine should have gone from the beginning. So he

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Speaker 1: described the Wagner Group's actions there as a masterclass in

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Speaker 1: military tactics. He also claimed, somewhat unbelievably, quote, we didn't

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Speaker 1: have the goal of toppling the existing regime, which is

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Speaker 1: lawfully elected, as we have said many times. He didn't

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Speaker 1: refer to Putin by name though. Instead he wanted to

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Speaker 1: quote prevent the destruction of the paramilitary group and to

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Speaker 1: hold you account those who quote, with their unprofessional actions,

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Speaker 1: made a huge amount of mistakes during Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

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Speaker 1: So I mean this is both a personal face saving

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Speaker 1: and attempt and also an attempt for Putin to save

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Speaker 1: face because you know, if you are letting someone who

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Speaker 1: directly threatened your regime off the hook, Yeah, that's a

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Speaker 1: pretty bad look here, So tempt it face saving all

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Speaker 1: the way around.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot of cope. I think that is happening.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, like let's be clear, in terms of the

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Speaker 2: Ukraine counter offensive, there has been no change currently to

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Speaker 2: the status quote minor movements on the front line, but

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Speaker 2: in terms of like any major breakthrough, any of that

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Speaker 2: hasn't materialized. There hasn't been a mass defection in terms

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Speaker 2: of Russian troops, and everything does currently seem to be

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Speaker 2: on course. But extraordinary events have just happened, and that

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Speaker 2: will shape Russia really to its core. And I think

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Speaker 2: that in terms of Putin, this will validate his worst

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Speaker 2: fears of all time. And I actually think a crackdown

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Speaker 2: domestically while that is likely, it may we may even

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Speaker 2: see even more of a crackdown in the military because

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Speaker 2: their apparatchis and political officers are loyal to Shogu and

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Speaker 2: to Garisimov, even though those guys are terrible at their

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Speaker 2: jobs and would never have risen to those level in

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Speaker 2: the United States or any sort of meritocratic system.

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Speaker 3: They're basically mafia bosses.

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Speaker 2: The issue really for them is that whenever they are

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Speaker 2: promoting people from within, they're largely loyal to the two

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Speaker 2: of them, and those two have then been loyal to Putin.

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Speaker 2: But Putin may come through and demand even more loyalty tests.

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Speaker 2: I think from the future. It's actually very much what

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Speaker 2: Stalin did in the nineteen thirties. It's one of the

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Speaker 2: reasons the Russian army was not well prepared for the

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Speaker 2: you know what happened during the Nazi invasion. The Czars

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Speaker 2: did the same thing, like almost any time there's some

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Speaker 2: sort of rebellion from within the armed forces, they do

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Speaker 2: a good job or they do usually a job of

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Speaker 2: making it more political, but overall that usually makes the

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Speaker 2: force less good at actually fighting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, there are some signs that Ukraine was

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Speaker 1: able to gain some ground while Russia was dealing with

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Speaker 1: all of this, And you know, I think it's entirely

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Speaker 1: plausible that Russia suffers militarily just because the Wagner group

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Speaker 1: was some of their more effective fighting forces. And some

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Speaker 1: proportion of Wagner is going to be incorporated to the

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Speaker 1: Ministry of Defense, but some proportion of it is just

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Speaker 1: going to be done, go home, et cetera. So you know,

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Speaker 1: we'll see how it all shakes out. I will say,

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Speaker 1: just getting some of the contexts from Yegor in terms

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Speaker 1: at least of how he personally views this all unfolding

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Speaker 1: domestically in Russia, Pregosion had become a real social media sensation,

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Speaker 1: and he had been propped up in some ways by

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Speaker 1: Russian state media as this like patriot of the war,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. But in his view, in Yegor's view, that

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Speaker 1: support was really soft, and he disc Progosition as being

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Speaker 1: high on his own farts, meaning he, you know, he

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Speaker 1: was too big for his britches. He really overestimated how

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Speaker 1: much support he had, thought he was a big man,

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Speaker 1: thought he could pull this off. And then probably as

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Speaker 1: he's marching down the road and he's not seeing he's

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Speaker 1: not encountering a lot of resistance, but he's also not

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Speaker 1: seeing the Russian National Guard like rallying to his defense,

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Speaker 1: he realized, with his reportedly like twenty five hundred men

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Speaker 1: that he had with him, there was no way in

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Speaker 1: hell he was going to actually be able to take Moscow.

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Speaker 1: There are also reports that, you know, there were some

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Speaker 1: threats made to his family that may have been quite

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Speaker 1: persuasive to him, and so that's what brings him to

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Speaker 1: the negotiating table. I don't know if it was the

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Speaker 1: right move for Putin to strike this deal with Progosion,

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Speaker 1: because I do think that it reveals some real chinks

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Speaker 1: in the armor here. But you know, you just want

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Speaker 1: to be really careful about being too certain about oh,

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Speaker 1: this spell's the end of the regime, and this is

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Speaker 1: you know, weakness, and now the Ukrainians are going to

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Speaker 1: be able to counter et cetera. Nobody really knows how

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Speaker 1: it will all shake out, and so it's just best

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Speaker 1: to look at the situation for what it is today

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Speaker 1: and try to see what happens tomorrow going forward.

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Speaker 2: You know, Peter's ion actually has always said it really well.

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Speaker 2: He's like, look, the first year and a half, it's

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Speaker 2: always a shit show. He's like, then he's like, somehow

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Speaker 2: they throw as many bodies as possible into the grinder,

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Speaker 2: and then they usually ended up pulling it out. So,

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Speaker 2: if history is our guide, we seem to be currently

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Speaker 2: in that shit show category.

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Speaker 3: Show, yeah, we are currently within that. Let's go to

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Speaker 3: the next part here.

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Speaker 2: President Biden trying to put away some concerns that the

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Speaker 2: West may have had something to do with progotionis cop effort.

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Speaker 2: He was talking about it at the top of a

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Speaker 2: White House event yesterday in his first public comments. Here's

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Speaker 2: what he had to say.

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Speaker 4: We had to make sure we gave putin no excuse, say,

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Speaker 4: we gave putin no excuse to blame this on the West,

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Speaker 4: to blame this on NATO. We made clear that we

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Speaker 4: were not involved, we had nothing to do with it.

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Speaker 4: This was part of a struggle within the Russian system.

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Speaker 2: Making clear we have nothing to do with the crystal.

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Speaker 2: I mean, they're having many reporting whatever that we had.

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Speaker 2: Of course, there was some of that about whether we

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Speaker 2: had some information about the forthcoming coup, whether it was

436
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,040
Speaker 2: actually gonna happen or not. But obviously, as we actually

437
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:13,440
Speaker 2: read earlier today in the show, Putin is still blaming

438
00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:16,760
Speaker 2: the West and others for encouraging the military coup.

439
00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:18,640
Speaker 3: Now he probably is gonna do that no.

440
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:22,840
Speaker 2: Matter what, whatever actually the details are. I do think

441
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,919
Speaker 2: it is interesting though, to look and to see whether

442
00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,479
Speaker 2: and how Putin will continue to message, because I actually

443
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,280
Speaker 2: think it is a mistake to blame this on the

444
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:37,399
Speaker 2: West and not point out Pregosians. Actually worst thing that

445
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:41,240
Speaker 2: he did, which is all intel currently indicates that whenever

446
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:45,000
Speaker 2: he was whining about not having enough ammunition and going

447
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,000
Speaker 2: after the best ministry, he had all the animo that

448
00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:50,160
Speaker 2: he needed and he was hoarding it so it could

449
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,840
Speaker 2: mount to coup. I mean, if you were wanted like

450
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:56,800
Speaker 2: a benefit for a public message, you're like this guy

451
00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,399
Speaker 2: literally took weapons that he could have been using to

452
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,520
Speaker 2: protect Russian lives and use them to mount a coup

453
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:06,879
Speaker 2: against our government that already failed. So that's something that

454
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,639
Speaker 2: if you know, if the Russian regime were smart, I

455
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:11,800
Speaker 2: think that's what they would lean into and would message.

456
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:15,120
Speaker 1: You know. It's fascinating how this all went down, as

457
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,720
Speaker 1: best as we understand it. So the reporting is the

458
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,879
Speaker 1: us knew in advance and chose to do nothing, which

459
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,199
Speaker 1: I think, you know, at least that's their line is

460
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,000
Speaker 1: that they did nothing and there's no evidence to suggest otherwise.

461
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:28,320
Speaker 1: MO would be open to that evidence if it presents itself.

462
00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:33,800
Speaker 1: I think that was a wildly dangerous gamble, insanely dangerous gamble,

463
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,280
Speaker 1: and I think it's reflective of the attitude of a

464
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:39,640
Speaker 1: lot of the blob here in Washington, and we saw

465
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,639
Speaker 1: it expressed online from you know, former Russian ambassador Michael

466
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:47,159
Speaker 1: McFall as one example, that they were actively cheering for

467
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:52,280
Speaker 1: this war. Criminal mercenary, maniac head of a private army

468
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:57,120
Speaker 1: to take control of nuclear superpower like that is insane.

469
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,280
Speaker 1: That is insane. Listen, maybe he would dot his eyes

470
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:03,720
Speaker 1: and cross his t's with regard to protecting the nuclear

471
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:07,639
Speaker 1: arsenal and not be wild and unhint, but you have

472
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:12,160
Speaker 1: no idea. And so it looks like it worked out

473
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,080
Speaker 1: in you know, the West favor here, looks like the

474
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 1: gamble paid off. But how many of these gambles are

475
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,199
Speaker 1: we going to take? How many of these gambles have

476
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 1: we already taken? With regards to how we have approached

477
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 1: this conflict, I just think it's absolutely insane now with

478
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,679
Speaker 1: regards to the build up to this moment what Progotion claimed.

479
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:33,960
Speaker 1: So I went through some of this context yesterday, but

480
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:38,359
Speaker 1: just to reiterate a bit, they were already there was

481
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 1: already a loss of attention between Progotion, Shoigu and increasingly,

482
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 1: you know, potentially with Putin as well, because Progotion was

483
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,880
Speaker 1: just you know, he was really unleashed. He was extremely

484
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,879
Speaker 1: repeatedly critical of the Russian military leadership. Putin seemed to

485
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:52,879
Speaker 1: recognize they have somewhat of a problem here, so they

486
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,399
Speaker 1: were looking to curtail Wagner's power and to try to

487
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:57,920
Speaker 1: bring them under the umbrella of the Ministry of Defense,

488
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:02,360
Speaker 1: which means that Wagner's would basically be under Shoigu, which

489
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,960
Speaker 1: to him was a real red line. Apparently, so what

490
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 1: he did in addition to hoarding the am Osaga, apparently

491
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:13,359
Speaker 1: to plan this not totally not a coup, was claimed

492
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 1: that there was a direct military attack on Wagner forces.

493
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,919
Speaker 1: There's no evidence to support that whatsoever, but that's what

494
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 1: he used as his pretext, and he claimed in his

495
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 1: eleven minute address that we talked about before that like, oh,

496
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 1: we were totally listen. We weren't happy about becoming out

497
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 1: of the Ministry of Defense, but it was fine. We

498
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 1: were packing up our stuff, we were getting too ready

499
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,440
Speaker 1: to leave, and then you know, innocent us over here,

500
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,399
Speaker 1: they came and they attacked us. So what are we

501
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:40,680
Speaker 1: going to do? That was his claim of how all

502
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 1: this started. But yeah, I think our posture here was

503
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 1: wildly irresponsible and downright terrifying, and we're just lucky that

504
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 1: it worked out the way that it did.

505
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 2: I've been mulling it over and thinking, I'm just I

506
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 2: do think it was a tough gambit at the time.

507
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 2: I genuinely don't know now what I've been thinking about

508
00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 2: in terms of the warning, but I do think I

509
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,200
Speaker 2: think that a good opportunity about.

510
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 1: We'll make the other case, So okay, there for what thats.

511
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 2: The case for not doing anything is you have no

512
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:08,919
Speaker 2: idea is that they're going to blame you already in

513
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 2: the first place. And also who would have ever actually

514
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:13,680
Speaker 2: thought they would get as far as they did, right,

515
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 2: So they're like, hey, they'll you know, piss pootin off,

516
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 2: but it's nothing's really gonna happen. So they never in

517
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:20,880
Speaker 2: their wildest dreams could have imagined that the Russians would

518
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:22,919
Speaker 2: be so incompetent to let them get two hundred klometers

519
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 2: from Moscow. I understand in terms of that, but I'm

520
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 2: thinking now on the back end, this is a perfect

521
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 2: opportunity for engagement to go to them and be like, look, man,

522
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 2: you just got humiliated in the national stage.

523
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 3: Just call it. Call it in Ukraine. We'll put pressure

524
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 3: on the Ukrainians.

525
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 2: Let's all just we'll come together and we'll try it

526
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,199
Speaker 2: in the same and you can sail off in the sunset.

527
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,439
Speaker 2: You'll actually look better, you'll be stronger, you won't have

528
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:47,439
Speaker 2: as many problems.

529
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 1: So ques you have done that though, once you have

530
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:55,159
Speaker 1: the intelligence, but before the attempted coup actually happens, as

531
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 1: pop say, listen, you know this is this guy's a

532
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 1: problem for you. We know he's planning this who who

533
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 1: knows how this is going to go. Let's you know,

534
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,400
Speaker 1: let's get to the negotiating table before and before all

535
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:07,160
Speaker 1: of this unfold.

536
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 2: I think the problem is he probably would have just

537
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 2: said okay, that's nice, and then he would have taken

538
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 2: the information. He would chopped his head off and he

539
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:13,879
Speaker 2: would have been like yeah, and he was a trader

540
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 2: or whatever to the regime. And also the West was

541
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,119
Speaker 2: behind it, even though they're the ones who who are

542
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 2: the ones who warned us about it? So I just

543
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:20,679
Speaker 2: don't know.

544
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 3: Look, we are where we are, where we are right now?

545
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,639
Speaker 2: Is I do think this is a good opportunity for

546
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 2: Emmanuel Macron or somebody to get over there or to

547
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,920
Speaker 2: get on the phone with these people and just be like, look,

548
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,440
Speaker 2: you don't want to be in this situation. Macrone is

549
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:36,640
Speaker 2: actually even he's probably the perfect one because he keeps

550
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 2: saying Russian needs to be defeated but not destroyed in terms.

551
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 3: Of the Putin rgue.

552
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Mcputin would see him at the very least

553
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:44,399
Speaker 2: is a credible person whenever it comes to this, and

554
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:45,879
Speaker 2: he would say I can go to the West, I

555
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 2: can go to Biden, I can go to the UK

556
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:48,639
Speaker 2: and I can go to all of them and I

557
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:50,479
Speaker 2: can say that we can try and put some pressure

558
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:52,119
Speaker 2: here to try and bring this into a clothes but

559
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,119
Speaker 2: you gotta you got to pull out, or you got

560
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 2: to call it, or you got to give us something

561
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 2: so that we can make sure that we keep this

562
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 2: all temperature down. But without any sort of engagement like this,

563
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,199
Speaker 2: the most likely option and scenario from the Russians is

564
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 2: to double triple down and to try and achieve some

565
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,119
Speaker 2: sort of military victory to justify the current chaos and

566
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 2: the problems and the cost of what's going on in Ukraine.

567
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 3: I mean, that's w I thing.

568
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 1: I think it's very likely that Putin sees the outcome

569
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 1: of this war as completely existential to him right personally,

570
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 1: and that's why, you know, it seems it's I want

571
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 1: to be hopeful that you could achieve some sort of

572
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 1: negotiated settlement in the near term, but it's hard for

573
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:30,920
Speaker 1: me to see. I mean, he's going to need some

574
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: sort of face saving, some sort of way to back

575
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 1: on the corner that he's put himself in. And yeah,

576
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:38,679
Speaker 1: not a good set effects.

577
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 2: Absolutely, let's go to the next part here on Ukraine.

578
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 2: We're always, of course paying attention to what also is

579
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 2: happening with the Zelenski government and how they're handling themselves

580
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,400
Speaker 2: in terms of their democratic or in terms of their

581
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 2: democratic processes.

582
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: Let's go to put this up fighting for as democracy

583
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 1: a well.

584
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 2: President Zelenski is now saying that Ukraine will hold elections

585
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 2: after the war ends. He says that elections in Ukraine

586
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 2: can be held in twenty twenty four only if martial

587
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,120
Speaker 2: law is ended by them. Martial law currently in effect

588
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:14,120
Speaker 2: under the Ukrainian constitution after the invasion of Russia. So

589
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,640
Speaker 2: they invasion by Russia, they say that, Zelenski says, according

590
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 2: to that constitution, no elections can even be held in

591
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,639
Speaker 2: the country while martial law remains in In fact, he

592
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,400
Speaker 2: expressed hope that there would be paced priests in Ukraine

593
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,159
Speaker 2: next year and that life could return to normal. The

594
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,199
Speaker 2: next parliamentary elections would normally actually be held October of

595
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 2: twenty twenty three, so coming up here in the fall

596
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,880
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty three, and then this presidential election would

597
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 2: take place in the spring of twenty twenty four. The

598
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 2: Speaker of the Ukrainian Parliament actually said that the issue

599
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 2: of parliamentary elections was quote not on the agenda, since that,

600
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 2: according to law, they could not be held during martial law.

601
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 3: Now I'll say why, I think that this is a mistake.

602
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 2: We had an election here with a very important election

603
00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 2: here in the United States, in the middle of our

604
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 2: great Civil War in eighteen sixty four, Argua believe, the

605
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 2: most important election ever in American history, because it affirmed

606
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 2: actually at the time that this was a rebellion, that

607
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 2: this was not something that was going to interfere with

608
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 2: our democratic process. You know.

609
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 3: Lincoln, of course.

610
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 2: You know, he suspended Habeas Corpus, and he did a

611
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 2: lot of stuff which you know, certainly doesn't look all

612
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 2: that great in terms of democratic norms, but insisted on

613
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 2: holding both the midterm elections and some the gubernatorial elections

614
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 2: from eighteen sixty three and then in eighteen sixty four

615
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 2: as well, even with the full knowledge he believed he

616
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 2: would lose. He believed up until I forget what great

617
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 2: victory happened.

618
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 3: It's blanking.

619
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 2: I think it's Sherman's marchis Atlanta, That's what it was.

620
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 2: The seizure of Atlanta. I believe that happened before the

621
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 2: election or sometime around the election, was that there was

622
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 2: a thought and a knowledge within that government that they

623
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 2: were going to lose, and that when they did lose,

624
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 2: that the war aims that because Lincoln was running at

625
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 2: that time against General McClellan, who was much more of

626
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 2: a peacenick and Democrat who wanted to sign an agreement

627
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 2: with the South, that they were like, not only are

628
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 2: we going to lose, we're actually gonna get somebody in

629
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:09,479
Speaker 2: office who is against everything that we're for.

630
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 3: And they held the election anyways.

631
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 2: And the reason why I think that's so important to

632
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 2: think about is that you know, Ukraine is in the

633
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 2: midst of an external threat, and you know that that

634
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 2: is genuinely existential. They do have conquered territory, but it's

635
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 2: not unprecedented, you know, for countries in the middle of wars,

636
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 2: and specifically democratic countries to hold elections at that time.

637
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 2: So I understand, you know, the whole constitution and all that,

638
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 2: but I also do think it's a little bit convenient

639
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 2: specifically also because Ukraine has taken a lot of steps

640
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 2: to quash and to go after opposition parties, pro Ukraine

641
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 2: voices or pro Russian voices and all of that within

642
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 2: its country. At the end of the day, some sort

643
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 2: of settlement here, and the idea of Ukraine as a polity,

644
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 2: as a sovereign nation is they did have a significant

645
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 2: Russian speaking population. So if they want to make the

646
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 2: case as being some sort of like multi lingual sema,

647
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 2: you know, like multinationality country that you know, should survive

648
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 2: and exist in the future, elections are a very key

649
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 2: part of that, you know, in terms of the democracy.

650
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's right, And I mean the point

651
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 1: of highlighting this story and this suspension of any sort

652
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: of even semblance of democracy, which this is just the

653
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 1: latest step in a number of zagara's alluding to crackdowns

654
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: on any sort of political parties that would voice any

655
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 1: kind of dissent, corraling of media and all those sorts

656
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 1: of actions is not to demonize Ukraine. It's just to

657
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 1: make sure that people aren't falling for the propaganda that

658
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 1: this is, you know, perfect democracy, and what we're doing

659
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: is really just standing up for democracy and that there

660
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 1: aren't some warts involved with what's going on with the

661
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 1: Ukrainian government as well. I just want people to be

662
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: clear eyed about what the real goals are here from

663
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 1: the US, who we are really supporting and what the

664
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: actual reality within Ukraine is. I think that's it.

665
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know what the irony is. I think

666
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 2: Zelenski would be elected. He's dramatically popular.

667
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 1: Insanely popular, as far as we could tell her.

668
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 2: Anyway, before all of it, there are a lot of

669
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 2: correct questions about corruption to this comedian even be in

670
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 2: charge all this stuff.

671
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 1: I mean, you're in from the perfect thune. Yeah, Like

672
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 1: he's a very different from the media representation of him now.

673
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 2: Inside of Ukraine or at least what's left the Ukraine,

674
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 2: this man is a hero. He probably would win like

675
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 2: ninety something percent of the vote. I don't know why

676
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 2: you wouldn't want to hold an election right now, but

677
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 2: maybe there's some democratic stuff going on behind the scenes.

678
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 2: Still thought it was important to bring everybody that story.

679
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 2: Let's go ahead to the next part here. Hunter Biden.

680
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 2: President Biden making his very first comments on the Hunter

681
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 2: Biden Plea agreement and all of the controversy around that

682
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 2: since the release of the IRS whistleblower the text, and

683
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 2: the allegations against him. Asked specifically by a Fox News

684
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 2: reporter as he was exiting a White House event, were

685
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 2: you a liar, mister, President whenever you said that you

686
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 2: didn't have any business dealings with Hunter. Here's what he

687
00:32:52,840 --> 00:33:05,479
Speaker 2: had to say. Okay, So I know that's very difficulty here.

688
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:07,719
Speaker 2: I also have deep sympathy for I have been that

689
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 2: person before, and it's a very tough gig. So she

690
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 2: was on the middle of a rope line as President

691
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 2: Biden was leaving I think that's the East Room and

692
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 2: walking through the walking to the Grand Hallway or whatever

693
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 2: it's called. And while she says, she's word, did you lie?

694
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 2: And all he said was no. So that's the first

695
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 2: public comment that he's made.

696
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 1: She's saying, did you lie that you had never spoken

697
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: to your son about his business dealings? Right? Right?

698
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 2: That's did you lie about never speaking one hundred about

699
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 2: his business doing. The reason why that that's important is

700
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 2: that a he took the chance only to answer that

701
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 2: question in the middle of a very crowded room whenever

702
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 2: there's a lot of noise, and he was still refused

703
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 2: to address it in any press podium. In terms of

704
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 2: the reaction currently from the White House, they have still

705
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 2: refused to give any comment, and they were asked about

706
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 2: it yesterday again and they still are unable to provide

707
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 2: any answer around ethics about President Biden about his knowledge

708
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 2: of the deal and the whistleblower.

709
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:09,839
Speaker 3: Here's what Karine Jean Pierre had to say.

710
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 8: If the President communicated to members of his family not

711
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 8: to conduct business on White House grounds, can you tell

712
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 8: us about any kinds of guardrails that are up.

713
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:26,319
Speaker 5: So look, I'm going to be again very mindful because

714
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 5: this is all connected to a case that the DJ

715
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 5: is currently overseeing. So I'm not going to comment on

716
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 5: that specifically. But as you know, and we have laid

717
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 5: out very early on in this administration when it comes

718
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:47,399
Speaker 5: to ethics, when it comes to how we all kind

719
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 5: of move about and how have we respect clearly the

720
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 5: government ethics here. This is a president, this is an

721
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 5: administration has been incredibly transparent on that.

722
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 2: This administration is very transparent and that that is why

723
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 2: the only thing that we have to say about corrupt

724
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 2: business dealings irs whistleblowers is.

725
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 3: He is his son. Did you notice that yesterday?

726
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 2: Every time that he was taught or she was talking

727
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 2: about it, She's like, this is his son, this is

728
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 2: his son. They were like, are you going to ask

729
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 2: him about it? And she said no, I don't have

730
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 2: any plans. How do you have no plans to ask

731
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 2: him about it? You're getting up there and getting hammered

732
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 2: every day being you know, asking questions around a very

733
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:29,359
Speaker 2: specific government irs whistleblower allegation of foreign corruption against our

734
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 2: number one adversary on the global stage, and you have

735
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,320
Speaker 2: nothing to say about it, and then have it straight

736
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 2: faced say that you're the most transparent you know, administration

737
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 2: whatever in history and they're so ethical in your conduct.

738
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just outrageous the way that they're trying

739
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 2: to quash this.

740
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 1: Crystal Well, that's also a lie. Like I don't know

741
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 1: if she's like questioned Biden on it, but clearly it right.

742
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:51,799
Speaker 3: So now you're likely.

743
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 1: Extensively behind the scenes and how to handle it. It's

744
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 1: also interesting she mentioned that this is the subject, you know,

745
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 1: that Hunter is the subject of an ongoing dog investigation,

746
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:02,799
Speaker 1: because there had been some question about that. Hunter's lawyer

747
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 1: actually said that the investigation was over, but the DJ

748
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 1: saying no, no, no, we're still we're still looking into

749
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 1: some things. So she's seeming to at least agree with

750
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 1: the DJ that the investigation into Hunter isn't over. So

751
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 1: I found that interesting as well, but clearly in terms

752
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 1: of their press strategy. They are hoping that they can

753
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 1: keep any questions about Hunter and his business dealings and

754
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,360
Speaker 1: any sort of potential linkages with the current president of

755
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 1: the United States. They are hoping that they can corral

756
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:36,800
Speaker 1: this into partisan conservative media and make it easy to

757
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 1: dismiss as just a smear tactic and you know, political

758
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:43,879
Speaker 1: campaign tactic to damage the president before his reelection. That's

759
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 1: what they're really hoping, and up till you know, the

760
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 1: past few days, they really were successful at that there

761
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: was very little There was no interest from the mainstream

762
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 1: press about anything with regard to potential Hunter Biden business dealings,

763
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 1: and frankly, there wasn't as much evidence of you know,

764
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 1: potential interplace between Joe Biden and Hunter Biden with regard

765
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 1: to this Chinese business deal or anything else. I think

766
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 1: it's going to be very difficult for them to keep

767
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 1: this now corralled into partisan conservative press. And the reason is,

768
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 1: I mean, we've already kind of seen the dam has broken.

769
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 1: The fact that you had Karine Jean Pierre facing difficult

770
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:22,760
Speaker 1: questions from CNN, from NBC, from CBS, from basically every

771
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,839
Speaker 1: mainstream outlet that felt that they had kind of been

772
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 1: played on this story, I think makes it difficult to

773
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 1: imagine that they're actually going to be able to get

774
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 1: through this whole incident without having to seriously respond to it,

775
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,840
Speaker 1: seriously deal with it, and without it you know, dinging

776
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:42,720
Speaker 1: Biden in a lot of ways. So where Democrats really

777
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:47,320
Speaker 1: they do themselves no favors, listen a lot of Unfortunately,

778
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: both parties in Washington seem to think that, you know,

779
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,280
Speaker 1: when it's their own side, that this sort of corruption

780
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 1: is just par for the course, it's just part of

781
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 1: how Washington operates, and that they really don't feel bad

782
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 1: about it. They don't see any with that. They think

783
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:04,240
Speaker 1: that's just like the natural order of business. But rightly,

784
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,319
Speaker 1: the American people see it very very differently. And so

785
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,399
Speaker 1: if you're going to run another campaign against Trump, which

786
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,799
Speaker 1: they're signaling that they want to run basically the same

787
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 1: playbook as twenty twenty, you know, it's the soul of

788
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 1: the nation argument that he was making last time around,

789
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 1: It's going to be very similar playbook this time around

790
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,799
Speaker 1: as well. It hurts your credibility when you don't have

791
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 1: clean hands. I mean, Trump is corrupt to sal He's

792
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: taking money right now directly from the Saudi's through live golf.

793
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:34,399
Speaker 1: His son in law is you know, taking billions from

794
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:38,320
Speaker 1: them as well. There's other Gulf state entanglements, a development

795
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,320
Speaker 1: deal in Oman like this is as that's as corrupt

796
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: as it gets. You undermine your ability to effectively make

797
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 1: that case against Trump when you yourself have these kind

798
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 1: of messy business dealings.

799
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, how are you going to talk with a straight

800
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:57,359
Speaker 2: face about Jared Kushner and corruption and return to normalcy

801
00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 2: and all of that and have one of the most

802
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 2: transparently ridiculous and corrupt dealings in modern presidential history excepting Trump.

803
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 2: Then you're just you know, in many ways, you're just

804
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:09,360
Speaker 2: as bad. And you know, I want to emphasize what

805
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,919
Speaker 2: you said. On the media front, these they do look

806
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 2: like fools. They you know, all the hallmarks of Russian

807
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:17,799
Speaker 2: disinformation on the Russian lap, on the Hunter Biden.

808
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 3: Lap, Russian laptop. Almost even I had a slip.

809
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 2: There myself under Biden laptop. They said, add all the

810
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 2: hallmarks of Russian disas. Then they refuse to even report

811
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 2: on the laptop until after the election itself a form

812
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 2: of you know, election interference. Then after that, what do

813
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 2: they do? They wait almost two something years into biden

814
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 2: presidency until an actual government whistleblower has to come forward

815
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 2: with cold hard facts and evidence of text messages for

816
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 2: them to actually ask him about it at the podium.

817
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 2: And I think that's why I get pissed off of

818
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 2: Crystal is because all of the evidence has been there

819
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 2: since October of twenty twenty, since the day the laptop

820
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 2: came out and Tony Bobolinski came out as well and

821
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 2: verified the email talking about ten percent for the big guy.

822
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 2: There has been a direct allegation that Biden was involved

823
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 2: with the business dealings. He was never, never, to my knowledge,

824
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 2: asked specifically about any of these allegations in any mainstream

825
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 2: press interview, in any press conference that has come forward.

826
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,239
Speaker 2: And he's now running for re election to president of

827
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 2: the United States and now facing questions that have been

828
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 2: known now in the public sphere for literally years and years,

829
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,799
Speaker 2: and in fact even pre laptop beisma, and all of

830
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 2: that has been known since two thousand and twenty eighteen,

831
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 2: I believe since that came forward. So I do think

832
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:33,840
Speaker 2: it is a huge black mark on the press and

833
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 2: their conduct with respect to this.

834
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 3: Now in terms of the press.

835
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:39,360
Speaker 1: Are they going to redeem themselves soccer?

836
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, shit, will they redeem themselves? We just couldn't resist

837
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:44,759
Speaker 3: this particular.

838
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:46,839
Speaker 2: Fight because this does sum up the way that the

839
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:50,279
Speaker 2: elite liberal press does feel about the Hunter Biden story.

840
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:52,320
Speaker 3: They're trying to spin it in every which way they can.

841
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 2: Both Nicholas Christoph and now Anna Navarro over at The

842
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:57,839
Speaker 2: View have settled on the line, which is that the

843
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 2: real story behind Hunter Biden is the love of a

844
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 2: father between a son. Here's what she had to say.

845
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 9: I've known Joe Biden since he was a senator for

846
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:09,319
Speaker 9: about twenty some years. I can't tell you how much

847
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:12,879
Speaker 9: his life has been marked by losing not one child,

848
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 9: but two children. And once you've lost a child, I

849
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 9: think you are absolutely determined. It's even more urgent. It's

850
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,319
Speaker 9: even a bigger issue that you will not.

851
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 3: Lose another one.

852
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:29,799
Speaker 9: The Hunter Biden's story the scandal that it's also the

853
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,479
Speaker 9: story of a father's love. And Joe Biden has never

854
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 9: and will never give up on his son's Hunter and

855
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,799
Speaker 9: will never treat him lesser than And so he is

856
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:43,239
Speaker 9: a father first, take it or leave it. That's who

857
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 9: he is. That is part of his heart. There was

858
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 9: three hundred and eighty people at this dinner. It's not

859
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 9: like Hunter was sitting at Merrick Garland's lap.

860
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:54,320
Speaker 3: It was a bunch of people.

861
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:58,320
Speaker 9: And I think part of the reason that Hunter Biden

862
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 9: has been able to get out addiction is because Joe

863
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 9: Biden embraced him entirely the entire time, when he was

864
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,879
Speaker 9: vice president, when he was candidate, when he was out

865
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 9: of office, and now as president.

866
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 7: Wow.

867
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:14,279
Speaker 2: So it's just all about fatherly love. I mean, here's

868
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 2: why people should be mad. You know, if you're a

869
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 2: normal person and your dad is not the president of

870
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:20,720
Speaker 2: the United States the vice president of the United States,

871
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 2: you would have been locked up long ago. Your father's

872
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:27,400
Speaker 2: love wouldn't have been able to get you out of

873
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,839
Speaker 2: some terrible jams in our criminal justice system, and very

874
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 2: likely you would be in a real hard way right now.

875
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:37,759
Speaker 2: You'd probably be bankrupt now. Instead, his fatherly love effectively

876
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 2: allowed Hunter to drift off of his name for his

877
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:42,760
Speaker 2: entire life, to enable his addiction, to get out of scrapes,

878
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:45,280
Speaker 2: to literally act like a thug in these text messages,

879
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 2: blackmailing foreign governments to pay him off, and then use

880
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 2: that love now to try and shield yourself from legitimate

881
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:57,840
Speaker 2: questions around these dealings. Yeah, is the most disgusting form

882
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 2: of cynicism that we have seen yet. And there's no

883
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 2: here's the thing. You think Trump doesn't love his children.

884
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:05,840
Speaker 2: I'm sure he does. It's still gross. Well maybe I

885
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 2: don't know, but some of them.

886
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:10,240
Speaker 3: I love some of them.

887
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 2: And you know, that's not an excuse for acting back,

888
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 2: if anything, you know, having that has always been a problem,

889
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 2: like Bill Clinton's pardoning of Roger Clinton, her Jimmy what

890
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:24,399
Speaker 2: was his screw up names brother, Billy Carter, I think right,

891
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:26,879
Speaker 2: I don't know, whatever, Yeah, I mean, the point though,

892
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:29,800
Speaker 2: is that it has always been called out as wrong

893
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:31,880
Speaker 2: and as bad whenever you use the public service in

894
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 2: your office in order to Billy Carter, Yeah, in order

895
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 2: to give benefits to the people who.

896
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 3: You are related to.

897
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 1: I mean, I really think this clip is so overfeeling

898
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 1: because she actually says up front, like I've known Joe

899
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:50,319
Speaker 1: Biden for decades, and clearly that sense of personal friendship

900
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 1: has in addition to the partisan valance of this, but

901
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:57,279
Speaker 1: the fact that so many of these media figures know

902
00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 1: Joe Biden, they've know bien Joe Biden for years, they

903
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 1: have warm fuzzies about him, They have personal stories about him,

904
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:06,879
Speaker 1: and he is a good politician in terms of I mean,

905
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 1: this was the problem Bernie Sanders couldn't like throw a

906
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:11,880
Speaker 1: punch at him because he felt warmly towards Joe Biden.

907
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 1: That is in some ways his superpower. And it's very

908
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:18,880
Speaker 1: common also in DC, where you have all of these

909
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 1: incestuous relationships and then it colors the way that supposed

910
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 1: journalists and analysts are able to cover events. So Anna

911
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:31,240
Speaker 1: Navarro makes what I think is a very common mistake

912
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 1: here and in New York of viewing this all through

913
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:39,319
Speaker 1: the most charitable possible lens because of her own personal

914
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 1: relationship here, Whereas if you had the same set of

915
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:47,959
Speaker 1: facts with regards to Donald Trump and Kushner or Amanka

916
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:51,759
Speaker 1: or whatever, and you don't have the personal relationship and

917
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 1: you don't have the partisan allyship, you'd have a very

918
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 1: different commentary. You'd have a very different assessment of what

919
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:02,399
Speaker 1: that meant, because instead of giving the absolute most charitable reading,

920
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 1: he would give the absolute most nefarious reading. Now you know,

921
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 1: maybe you could say, like, well, Trump has kind of

922
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 1: proven himself to be a pretty nefarious actor, so some

923
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:13,919
Speaker 1: of that is fair. But Jobia has also proven over

924
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 1: the long years of his tenure here in Washington to

925
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 1: have a lot of to allow a lot of drifting

926
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:22,360
Speaker 1: off of his name. I mean, I'm talking from the

927
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 1: very beginning, and I will never forget when we would

928
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:27,840
Speaker 1: Brian Graham on Rising back in the early days, and

929
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 1: he had like an encyclopedic knowledge of every documented corrupt

930
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:36,799
Speaker 1: business deal that was from his brother and his you know,

931
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 1: family members and children whatever, trading on the Byden name

932
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,239
Speaker 1: to try to personally enrich himself. So it's not like

933
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:45,799
Speaker 1: there's no track record of this stuff and it would

934
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 1: come out of the blue. At the most he was

935
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 1: directly involved in these deals, he was getting the ten percent,

936
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:56,479
Speaker 1: he was personally, you know, financially benefiting. There's a sort

937
00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:00,479
Speaker 1: of a second possibility, which is that Hunter it's also

938
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:03,839
Speaker 1: texted about like helping to support the whole family financially,

939
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 1: that even if Biden wasn't Joe Biden wasn't directly getting

940
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:11,280
Speaker 1: a cut, that he was secondarily benefiting from these business

941
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:13,760
Speaker 1: deal Hunter was doing by you know, helping to fund

942
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 1: his own lifestyle and whatever, you know, whatever he needed.

943
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:20,120
Speaker 1: That's a possibility, but at the very least it's clear

944
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 1: he allowed his own son to trade off his name

945
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:27,360
Speaker 1: in a way that is highly detrimental to public trust

946
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:30,960
Speaker 1: and overtly corrupt. Like if you can't, if you can't

947
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:33,720
Speaker 1: admit that, then you just are not an honest actor.

948
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:36,319
Speaker 2: I one hundred percent agree. I think it's disgusting, and

949
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 2: I think it's you know, it's even worse. I think

950
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 2: that only people like us will even be able to

951
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:43,799
Speaker 2: point this out. You know, we're happily do segments here

952
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:45,839
Speaker 2: on Jared Kushner as well. We do it all the time.

953
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 2: But unfortunately that's just not how our medio ecosystem is,

954
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 2: and that's really why the country is so broken. It

955
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,760
Speaker 2: really is because of an attitude like that. Anyway, speaking

956
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 2: of a market action or eruption.

957
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:59,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we've got another story about Justice Alito and

958
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 1: uh shady dealings that our friends at the Intercept wrote up.

959
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 1: Let's go and put this up on the screen. This

960
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 1: has to do actually with a business transaction of his wife.

961
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:11,920
Speaker 1: The headline here from the Intercept with journalist Daniel Bugislaw

962
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:15,759
Speaker 1: here has the byeline Samuel Alito's wife leased land to

963
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 1: an oil and gas firm while the Justice fought the

964
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 1: EPA A deal made by Alita's wife with an energy

965
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 1: company paints recent Supreme Court decisions on the environment in

966
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:30,319
Speaker 1: a damning light. So here's the backstory. Alito's wife, who

967
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:33,840
Speaker 1: I believe inherited a fair amount from her family, decided

968
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 1: to see if one hundred and sixty acre plot of

969
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:39,320
Speaker 1: land in Oklahoma would produce oil in a lease filed

970
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:41,799
Speaker 1: with the Grady County Clerk. The wife of Alita who

971
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 1: entered into an agreement with Citizen Energy three for revenue

972
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:46,840
Speaker 1: generated from oil and gas obtained from a plot of

973
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:50,879
Speaker 1: hard scrabble she inherited from her late father. They talked

974
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 1: to ethics experts about the implications of this, which I

975
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 1: do want to say, I don't think there's quite as

976
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 1: direct to connect here as there is with like the

977
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 1: private jet allegations, where you have him accepting private jet

978
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 1: travel from this rich billionaire who immediately has multiple cases

979
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 1: that come up in front of the Supreme Court that

980
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 1: Alito does not refuse himself from, et cetera. I don't

981
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 1: think the correction the connection is quite as direct here,

982
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 1: but I think it speaks to an overall atmosphere, an

983
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:22,719
Speaker 1: overall permissive atmosphere, and the types of financial entanglements that

984
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:25,760
Speaker 1: they almost see as just commonplace and par for the course.

985
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:28,800
Speaker 1: So they asked this Jeffauser, who's founder and director of

986
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:32,919
Speaker 1: the Revolving Door Project, about this financial arrangement. He said,

987
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:35,840
Speaker 1: there need not be a specific case involving the drilling

988
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 1: rights associated with a specific plot of land for Aledo

989
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:42,840
Speaker 1: to understand what outcomes in environmental cases would buttress his

990
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 1: family's net wealth. Alito does not have to come across

991
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 1: like a drunken Paul Thomas Anderson character gleefully confessing to

992
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:51,719
Speaker 1: drinking our collective milkshakes in order to be a real

993
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:54,640
Speaker 1: life run of the mill political villain. Just to give

994
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:56,279
Speaker 1: you a sense of a few of the cases that

995
00:48:56,360 --> 00:49:00,279
Speaker 1: are relevant to you, know, oil drilling, et cetera. In

996
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 1: May Alito pandam majority decision in Second versus EPA, which

997
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 1: radically scaled back the Clean Water Act. Prior to targeting

998
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 1: the Clean Water Act, Alito had also joined the court's

999
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,720
Speaker 1: other conservative justices in attacking another set of EPA powers

1000
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:17,400
Speaker 1: under the Clearing Air Act in West Virginia versus EPA.

1001
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:20,279
Speaker 1: That twenty twenty two ruling gutted the EPA's ability to

1002
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:25,080
Speaker 1: regulate greenhouse gas emissions from power plans, So listen, quite

1003
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:29,280
Speaker 1: possible this is Alito's ideological cleaning, and that he would

1004
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:33,560
Speaker 1: have made these decisions regardless of his own personal financial

1005
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:38,320
Speaker 1: stake here. But even the appearance of corruption is a problem,

1006
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:40,719
Speaker 1: especially when you're talking about the highest court of the land.

1007
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:45,480
Speaker 1: They should be holding themselves to the highest of standards,

1008
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 1: and instead they appear to have no standard whatsoever.

1009
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:50,400
Speaker 3: This is why I get very angry.

1010
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 2: You know, I'm hearing from a lot of right wing

1011
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 2: friends and they're like, why are you validating these attacks

1012
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:58,800
Speaker 2: on the court, And I'm like, look, this isn't about abortion,

1013
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:00,440
Speaker 2: this isn't about any of that. And by the way,

1014
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 2: if you want to uphold any of those decisions, it

1015
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:06,960
Speaker 2: is then up to you to conduct yourself in the highest,

1016
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 2: most ethical manner so that everyone cannot accuse you of

1017
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:14,720
Speaker 2: making a decision that did not have any financial interest

1018
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 2: to you. Remember Joshice John Roberts's wife making somewhat ten

1019
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 2: million dollars acting as a legal recruiter. I mean, that's

1020
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:24,400
Speaker 2: so obviously something that would benefit about that he that

1021
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:29,320
Speaker 2: obviously would benefit her prospects as a recruiter. Her freaking

1022
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 2: husband is the Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court. Now, listen,

1023
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 2: maybe she'd make five million on the outside without him.

1024
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:38,279
Speaker 2: But you know, even the appearance of it is bad enough.

1025
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 2: And it's one of those where when you sign up

1026
00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:42,400
Speaker 2: for life, you need to sign up for a lifetime

1027
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:45,319
Speaker 2: of holding yourself up to this ethical standard. If you

1028
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 2: want to leave and make a ton of money.

1029
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:49,960
Speaker 3: Be our guest. Nobody is stopping you.

1030
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 2: You're the ones who want to have it both ways.

1031
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 2: The problem, too, is we are entering a time of

1032
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 2: very divisive Supreme Court decisions where again, if you want

1033
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:00,600
Speaker 2: to have legitimacy in the court, then you have to

1034
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 2: uphold yourself in a manner stuff that nobody can attack

1035
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:05,920
Speaker 2: your standing and give Let's give it people an example

1036
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 2: here of some of these decisions to put this up

1037
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:10,320
Speaker 2: there on the screen, one of which I'm personally looking

1038
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:13,759
Speaker 2: forward to, the most affirmative action appears to be coming down.

1039
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:16,760
Speaker 1: The seaon probably come down. While that really makes Emily

1040
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:17,800
Speaker 1: Emily hold.

1041
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 2: Up par well, you know, I guess it would be

1042
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:21,880
Speaker 2: affirmative action, you know, to have somebody still do yet,

1043
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:24,600
Speaker 2: all right, so affirmative action very likely to go. Student

1044
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:27,960
Speaker 2: loan forgiveness very likely to be struck down at the

1045
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:32,360
Speaker 2: High Court. There's an interesting case I think about religious

1046
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 2: liberty and gay rights that they are talking about here

1047
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:37,719
Speaker 2: and the right or the openness to the public to

1048
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 2: have to provide services to all customers. It kind of

1049
00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:43,799
Speaker 2: hearkens back to the Master Cake, the bake shop and

1050
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:46,600
Speaker 2: the wedding cake one that was previously.

1051
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:49,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I sort of felt like I sort of felt

1052
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:50,800
Speaker 1: like this at already even I thought.

1053
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:51,319
Speaker 3: The same thing.

1054
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:54,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe I'm crazy. I was just like, I don't understand.

1055
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 2: How are we right back to the way place that

1056
00:51:56,680 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 2: we started?

1057
00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 1: So we are on this specific one. It's about a

1058
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:03,800
Speaker 1: Christian graphic artist in Colorado who wants to make wedding

1059
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:06,799
Speaker 1: websites but doesn't want to have to make wedding websites

1060
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 1: for gay couples. So yeah, it just seems to me

1061
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:12,200
Speaker 1: like the identical to the Master.

1062
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:13,319
Speaker 3: Literally or whatever it was called.

1063
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:16,879
Speaker 1: The piece. Yeah, anyway, so that one is that one's

1064
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:17,480
Speaker 1: on them, then.

1065
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:19,920
Speaker 2: Why are they even hearing it? It's obviously you and

1066
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 2: I aren't lawyers. And one to me another one here

1067
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:26,279
Speaker 2: is a religious rights case, another case that would end

1068
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:28,759
Speaker 2: as a victory case of a Christian mail carrier who

1069
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:30,880
Speaker 2: refused to work on Sundays when he was required to

1070
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:32,320
Speaker 2: deliver Amazon packages.

1071
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:32,719
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1072
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:35,840
Speaker 1: So that's an interesting one because there's actually a little

1073
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:39,200
Speaker 1: more sort of partisan overlap there. So the expectation is

1074
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:41,880
Speaker 1: that some of the liberal justices might vote in favor

1075
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:45,439
Speaker 1: of that mail carrier as well, because the view is that,

1076
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:48,319
Speaker 1: you know, it's no excuse for an employer to say, like, oh,

1077
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:50,600
Speaker 1: it cost us a little extra money for you to

1078
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:53,480
Speaker 1: be able to uphold your you know, to practice your religion.

1079
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:56,439
Speaker 1: That's not a good excuse at least as the course

1080
00:52:56,480 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 1: have found before. So the expectation is there may be

1081
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:01,560
Speaker 1: actually some overlap there in terms of the detachment.

1082
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:04,240
Speaker 2: But probably the single most important case for our future,

1083
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:06,720
Speaker 2: Crystal is the independent state legislature theory.

1084
00:53:07,160 --> 00:53:09,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I mean, do you want to do Yeah,

1085
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:09,879
Speaker 3: break down here, let.

1086
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:11,839
Speaker 1: Me let me let me take a crack at this one,

1087
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:13,120
Speaker 1: because I road deeply into it.

1088
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:13,440
Speaker 3: All right.

1089
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:17,480
Speaker 1: So this has to do with jerry mandering in North Carolina,

1090
00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:20,520
Speaker 1: where basically there was a conflict between the Republican state

1091
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:23,319
Speaker 1: legislature and the congressional lines that they wanted to draw,

1092
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:27,840
Speaker 1: and the state Supreme Court, which struck down those congressional

1093
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:31,520
Speaker 1: lines and said that they violated, that they were unconstitutional effectively,

1094
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 1: and so what the North Carolina legislature is arguing is

1095
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 1: the independent state what do they call it, independent state

1096
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:44,920
Speaker 1: legislature legislature theory, which is effectively that listen, we get

1097
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:48,200
Speaker 1: to say as a legislature how our elections are conducted

1098
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:51,000
Speaker 1: in state courts have nothing to do with it. They

1099
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:53,720
Speaker 1: don't get to say this at all. This has always

1100
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:56,600
Speaker 1: been a sort of fringe legal theory that is hung

1101
00:53:56,600 --> 00:54:00,360
Speaker 1: out there that Supreme Court has never once validated, although

1102
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:04,760
Speaker 1: there was a concurring opinion in the bushfi Gore case

1103
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:07,680
Speaker 1: where one of the justices did assert the independent state

1104
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:10,799
Speaker 1: legislature theory, So there is that hanging out there, but

1105
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:13,240
Speaker 1: overwhelmingly this has been kind of a French theory. Okay,

1106
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:15,840
Speaker 1: why is this really important? It matters in terms of

1107
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:18,880
Speaker 1: state voting rights. If your state constitution and the state

1108
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:22,840
Speaker 1: courts can't protect your voting rights, is just subject to

1109
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:26,400
Speaker 1: the whims of whatever politicians are elected to the legislature. Obviously,

1110
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:28,480
Speaker 1: that's kind of open season that could cause a lot

1111
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:30,520
Speaker 1: of problems, and cause a lot of problems pretty immediately.

1112
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:35,239
Speaker 1: There's also a possibility that because this independent state legislature

1113
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:38,719
Speaker 1: theory was floated last time in twenty twenty with some

1114
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:41,400
Speaker 1: of the fake elector schemes and the idea that the

1115
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:43,960
Speaker 1: legislators didn't actually have to listen to the will of

1116
00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:45,680
Speaker 1: the people who they voted for in their state, they

1117
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 1: could appoint their own slate of electors. That's where that

1118
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:52,840
Speaker 1: thinking all came from. So if the Supreme Court here

1119
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:58,120
Speaker 1: sides with the independent state legislature theory, the idea is,

1120
00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:01,800
Speaker 1: next time you have a close election, if the state

1121
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:05,280
Speaker 1: goes one way and the legislature wants to go another way,

1122
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:08,120
Speaker 1: you have legislators that won't listen to the will the people.

1123
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:10,719
Speaker 1: Instead will just say, yeah, you voted for Biden, but

1124
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:13,279
Speaker 1: we actually want to see Trump electors, So we're just

1125
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:15,360
Speaker 1: going to go ahead and do that, and the courts

1126
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:18,440
Speaker 1: will have essentially validated that approach. Now, I want to say,

1127
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:20,719
Speaker 1: there are legal experts that don't think that would be

1128
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:23,839
Speaker 1: the ramifications here, that don't think that would be the implications,

1129
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:26,040
Speaker 1: But there's a real danger that we could be going

1130
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:26,640
Speaker 1: down that path.

1131
00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:27,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

1132
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 2: So that's why I wanted to flag it for everybody

1133
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:31,680
Speaker 2: in terms of what coming down the path and why

1134
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:34,960
Speaker 2: it could have could have a big impact on the

1135
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:37,240
Speaker 2: future and all those questions that we had in twenty

1136
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 2: twenty about whether the alternative elector's scheme and all that

1137
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:43,080
Speaker 2: was even possible or legal. So if they do rule

1138
00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:45,200
Speaker 2: this way, it actually could open the door for even

1139
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:46,360
Speaker 2: more Supreme Court fights.

1140
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:47,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, come twenty twenty four.

1141
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:50,360
Speaker 1: All kinds of legal battles could ensue depending on what

1142
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:53,520
Speaker 1: direction that goes in. So in Sager's absence, Emily and

1143
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:55,399
Speaker 1: I will be covering all of these cases as they

1144
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:59,240
Speaker 1: come down. But obviously, with afirmative actions, student loans, gay rights,

1145
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:02,879
Speaker 1: voting rights, all of this potentially coming down very soon,

1146
00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:06,000
Speaker 1: it is going to be a pretty blockbuster set of

1147
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:11,600
Speaker 1: days here. All right, Let's get to this next story,

1148
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:13,520
Speaker 1: which I just think is really interesting. All Right, So

1149
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:16,800
Speaker 1: there's been the whole thing going on about so called

1150
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:20,239
Speaker 1: e SG, which I completely understand if you have no

1151
00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:22,359
Speaker 1: idea what that is, and you could not care less,

1152
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:27,320
Speaker 1: But it basically is this idea that corporations and banks

1153
00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:31,520
Speaker 1: and funds and whatever, rather than just focusing exclusively on

1154
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 1: shareholder value, they're also going to incorporate these goals of

1155
00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:41,160
Speaker 1: conscious capitalism and trying to do better on environmental, social,

1156
00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 1: and governance goals. Now, as I have explained and we've

1157
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:47,279
Speaker 1: discussed extensively in the past, there is a sort of

1158
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:50,880
Speaker 1: right wing critique of this, which is like about wocism

1159
00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:53,719
Speaker 1: and they should just be maximizing shareholder value and how

1160
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:57,640
Speaker 1: dare you insert your values into these business decisions. That's

1161
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:01,680
Speaker 1: the Zacharamaswami argument. Argument that I make and others on

1162
00:57:01,719 --> 00:57:03,719
Speaker 1: the left make about ESG is that this is all

1163
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:07,040
Speaker 1: fake corporate virtue signaling, that it's effectively greenwashing, and you

1164
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:09,560
Speaker 1: don't really mean any of it, including on your like

1165
00:57:09,640 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 1: fake diversity metrics or diversity trainings that you're doing, that

1166
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:15,720
Speaker 1: all of it is again just sort of like surface

1167
00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:18,920
Speaker 1: level corporate virtue signaling. So one of the leaders in

1168
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:24,200
Speaker 1: the whole ESG quote unquote movement has been the head

1169
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:26,800
Speaker 1: of Black Rock, Larry Finks. So let's go ahead and

1170
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:28,600
Speaker 1: put this up on the screen, because he made some

1171
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:32,760
Speaker 1: very interesting comments here about his view of ESG. He

1172
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:39,520
Speaker 1: said at the Aspen Ideas Festival gross that Florida Governoran

1173
00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:42,760
Speaker 1: DeSantis's decision to pull two billion dollars in assets had

1174
00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:45,280
Speaker 1: hurt his firm. In twenty twenty two, and to be clear,

1175
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:49,120
Speaker 1: DeSantis pulled those funds because of these ESG woke concerns

1176
00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:52,160
Speaker 1: from the right, but he also made clear las year

1177
00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:54,360
Speaker 1: was his company's best with netflows of two hundred million

1178
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:56,680
Speaker 1: dollars from UIST clients, and don't worry, guys, they're doing

1179
00:57:56,880 --> 00:57:59,440
Speaker 1: just fine. But what he said that was so interesting

1180
00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:03,560
Speaker 1: is quote, I'm ashamed of being part of this conversation.

1181
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:07,080
Speaker 1: When I write these investment letters, which his investment letters

1182
00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:09,920
Speaker 1: are very closely watched and widely right, et cetera, it

1183
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:11,760
Speaker 1: was never meant to be a political statement. They were

1184
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:15,720
Speaker 1: written to identify long term issues to our long term investors.

1185
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:18,760
Speaker 1: Then later in the conversation he kind of walked back

1186
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:21,479
Speaker 1: those comments. He was pressed on it, and he said

1187
00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:23,600
Speaker 1: I never said I was ashamed. He literally did say

1188
00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:26,160
Speaker 1: he was the shame. I'm not ashamed. I do believe

1189
00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:30,080
Speaker 1: in conscientious capitalism. I'm not going to use the word

1190
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:33,640
Speaker 1: ESG because it's been misused by the far left and

1191
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:36,200
Speaker 1: the far right. So Sager, what do you think of this?

1192
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:38,720
Speaker 2: Well, and the very same breath, he goes, instead, we'll

1193
00:58:38,720 --> 00:58:42,720
Speaker 2: talk about decarbonization, We'll talk about governance or social issues.

1194
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:48,320
Speaker 2: So it basically just described ESG without using the term ESG. Look,

1195
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:50,600
Speaker 2: I think ESG is a cancer for a variety of

1196
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:52,840
Speaker 2: the reasons that you just said. I do actually believe

1197
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:54,720
Speaker 2: it is a cover for a lot of woke bs

1198
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 2: and virtue signaling, which is genuinely bad because it's also

1199
00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:01,600
Speaker 2: stuff that is implemented in your name, even if you're

1200
00:59:01,640 --> 00:59:04,560
Speaker 2: invested in funds or stuff that you have no idea about.

1201
00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:07,280
Speaker 2: This isn't just for rich people, although predominantly, you know,

1202
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:10,440
Speaker 2: some forty percent of Americans have a stock in their

1203
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:14,000
Speaker 2: retirement portfolio, so you inadvertently could be funding something that

1204
00:59:14,080 --> 00:59:16,760
Speaker 2: you don't agree with. So that's number one. Number two though,

1205
00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:19,000
Speaker 2: in terms of the left critique that you're absolutely correct

1206
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:21,520
Speaker 2: about is how does Tesla not.

1207
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:23,840
Speaker 3: Rank as an ESG company now?

1208
00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:25,640
Speaker 2: And then do you know, do you know the reason

1209
00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:30,360
Speaker 2: why while Tesla doesn't and Exxon does, or Shell Gas,

1210
00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:34,240
Speaker 2: it's literally because they game the scores around, you know,

1211
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:37,520
Speaker 2: climate conscious. My favorite example was I believe this was

1212
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:41,920
Speaker 2: Shell was offloaded some mind to some African company, least

1213
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:45,200
Speaker 2: released it through a subsidiary, and by selling off something

1214
00:59:45,240 --> 00:59:48,080
Speaker 2: and decreasing their carbon score up to their ESG score,

1215
00:59:48,080 --> 00:59:50,560
Speaker 2: and was ranked as like some great company. Come on,

1216
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:53,640
Speaker 2: oil and gas company is ranking higher than the biggest

1217
00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:54,960
Speaker 2: electric car company in the world.

1218
00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:57,760
Speaker 3: Ludicrous. So obviously the entire thing is fake.

1219
00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:01,240
Speaker 2: The problem that I see right now is that for

1220
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:04,960
Speaker 2: a long time, one of the reasons why ESG was

1221
01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:07,760
Speaker 2: not pushed back by by a lot of the capitol.

1222
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:09,000
Speaker 3: Class is there doing really well.

1223
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:12,200
Speaker 2: But right now we're in a tech recession at the

1224
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:15,280
Speaker 2: very least, and so the problem is that tech companies,

1225
01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:17,440
Speaker 2: of course are going to rank very very high on ESG.

1226
01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:19,480
Speaker 2: They don't really make anything, you know, software is a

1227
01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:22,080
Speaker 2: service and all that very very high stock price. The

1228
01:00:22,160 --> 01:00:24,720
Speaker 2: issue though, is that the oil and gas companies they're.

1229
01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:25,400
Speaker 3: Doing super well.

1230
01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:29,640
Speaker 2: So now we're in a place where investors actually have

1231
01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:33,760
Speaker 2: to try and pick between ESG and making money, and

1232
01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:36,480
Speaker 2: when they do, they're like, well, this whole ESG thing,

1233
01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:38,640
Speaker 2: like maybe maybe we'll just go with a few maybe

1234
01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:39,680
Speaker 2: the S and the G will go.

1235
01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:42,320
Speaker 1: I think that is the key point here is that

1236
01:00:42,480 --> 01:00:43,360
Speaker 1: it was always fake.

1237
01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:46,120
Speaker 3: I mean, that's the thing is, so it's fake, but

1238
01:00:46,120 --> 01:00:47,320
Speaker 3: it has had a real impact.

1239
01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:48,960
Speaker 2: And I think that's kind of what I want to emphasize,

1240
01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:51,720
Speaker 2: is like there are genuine social problems that have been

1241
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:56,000
Speaker 2: a result of ESG, like DEI programs that we've seen implemented.

1242
01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:58,560
Speaker 1: Again, those things are fake. We know they don't work.

1243
01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:01,800
Speaker 1: It's just like they make just like a giveaway to

1244
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:05,120
Speaker 1: the consultant class. But I want to push I want

1245
01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:07,400
Speaker 1: to push back on. Listen, the consultant class already has

1246
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:10,200
Speaker 1: a million grifts. DEI is just one of them, right,

1247
01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:12,240
Speaker 1: I want to push back on the idea that you

1248
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:15,440
Speaker 1: started that it is in any way different that people

1249
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:18,840
Speaker 1: would be supporting you know, social goals or whatever that

1250
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:22,400
Speaker 1: with their funds accidentally that they don't actually support. That

1251
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:25,120
Speaker 1: happens all the time. I mean, that's the reality of

1252
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:27,720
Speaker 1: do you think that people who have their money in

1253
01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:30,240
Speaker 1: a pension fund that supports, you know, some company that's

1254
01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 1: like union busting and exploiting their labor, like, they don't

1255
01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:36,480
Speaker 1: support those values either. So the fact that the default

1256
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:40,840
Speaker 1: in capitalism is like ruthless exploitation and that's not seen

1257
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:43,560
Speaker 1: as a problem, there's no pushback on that. There's no

1258
01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:45,720
Speaker 1: thought of like, oh my god, people are supporting things

1259
01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:49,280
Speaker 1: with their money that they don't really actually support, you know.

1260
01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:52,720
Speaker 1: I just think that there's a lopsidedness to the conversation

1261
01:01:53,120 --> 01:01:56,120
Speaker 1: in terms of the you know, the bottom line being

1262
01:01:56,360 --> 01:01:58,960
Speaker 1: the money making here. Put this up on the screen

1263
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:01,200
Speaker 1: because I think this speaks to the virtue signaling piece.

1264
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:06,640
Speaker 1: Blackrock one of their top folks in terms of running

1265
01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:11,360
Speaker 1: their ESG efforts. They actually became a whistleblower and were like,

1266
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:14,800
Speaker 1: this is all bullshit greenwashing. All it does is give

1267
01:02:14,840 --> 01:02:17,760
Speaker 1: people like a happy, fuzzy feeling that oh, corporate America

1268
01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:19,800
Speaker 1: can fix the problems and don't worry about it. They've

1269
01:02:19,840 --> 01:02:22,400
Speaker 1: got it in conscientious capitalism. It's the wave of the

1270
01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:25,520
Speaker 1: future and we're all good to go. They said, this

1271
01:02:25,560 --> 01:02:28,360
Speaker 1: is nonsense. There as you were saying, Sager, they can

1272
01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:31,600
Speaker 1: easily gain the system to make the numbers come out,

1273
01:02:31,680 --> 01:02:33,960
Speaker 1: so it looks like their carbon neutral, looks like they're

1274
01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:38,080
Speaker 1: meeting their environmental goals whatever. But actually research has showed

1275
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:42,240
Speaker 1: that so called ESG companies and funds actually do worse

1276
01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:46,960
Speaker 1: on environmentalism than non ESG funds. So I guess in

1277
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:49,120
Speaker 1: that way, Sager, you are right that they have it

1278
01:02:49,160 --> 01:02:53,120
Speaker 1: has like actually been bad because they use this cloak

1279
01:02:53,560 --> 01:02:56,680
Speaker 1: in order to you know, appear like they're doing all

1280
01:02:56,680 --> 01:02:59,200
Speaker 1: the right things. And they're good on all these issues,

1281
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:02,640
Speaker 1: when in reaction, they're able to be even worse than

1282
01:03:02,680 --> 01:03:04,200
Speaker 1: the companies that are not pretending.

1283
01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:06,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's no. I me. I agree certainly

1284
01:03:06,480 --> 01:03:06,919
Speaker 3: on the latter.

1285
01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:08,800
Speaker 2: I think my point on the former though, is that

1286
01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:11,040
Speaker 2: you know, just because you've never had representation doesn't mean

1287
01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:11,640
Speaker 2: it's a good thing.

1288
01:03:11,720 --> 01:03:12,680
Speaker 3: You know, I actually do.

1289
01:03:12,840 --> 01:03:15,600
Speaker 2: I don't think well in terms of pension fund the example, like,

1290
01:03:15,640 --> 01:03:17,840
Speaker 2: in terms of a pension fund having no say or.

1291
01:03:17,880 --> 01:03:18,840
Speaker 3: Whatever, I think they should.

1292
01:03:18,880 --> 01:03:21,600
Speaker 2: I think people should have more impact and have thought

1293
01:03:21,680 --> 01:03:23,640
Speaker 2: into the stuff that they're investing in. So this is

1294
01:03:23,640 --> 01:03:26,120
Speaker 2: one of my bigger problems a lot with index funds,

1295
01:03:26,120 --> 01:03:28,360
Speaker 2: the lack of governance around some of them.

1296
01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:29,000
Speaker 3: You know what we have.

1297
01:03:29,120 --> 01:03:32,000
Speaker 2: I think I've done something on the past here about Bloomberg.

1298
01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:36,000
Speaker 2: You know, Bloomberg will include major Chinese multinational corporations that

1299
01:03:36,040 --> 01:03:38,640
Speaker 2: are industrial inside of its index fund that people will

1300
01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:40,760
Speaker 2: invest in the index fund. They don't even have any idea. Yeah,

1301
01:03:40,800 --> 01:03:42,680
Speaker 2: how much research do people really do when they, you know,

1302
01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:45,680
Speaker 2: invest in etio. My point is is that people should

1303
01:03:45,680 --> 01:03:49,280
Speaker 2: have the ability to not go on autopilot and have

1304
01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:52,840
Speaker 2: the US economy basically auto invest in stuff that you

1305
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:55,120
Speaker 2: don't not only don't agree with, but is also bad

1306
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:56,920
Speaker 2: for the country. I mean, you have to be a

1307
01:03:56,920 --> 01:03:59,240
Speaker 2: freak weirdo like me to actually go and read the

1308
01:03:59,280 --> 01:04:01,040
Speaker 2: perspective special.

1309
01:04:00,760 --> 01:04:02,920
Speaker 1: Sure well, And I don't want to ascribe to you

1310
01:04:03,120 --> 01:04:05,720
Speaker 1: the views of like Vivek Ramaswami. I would not be

1311
01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:08,080
Speaker 1: fair because it doesn't reflect you know, what you actually think.

1312
01:04:08,120 --> 01:04:09,760
Speaker 1: But I think it's fair to say on the right,

1313
01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:12,120
Speaker 1: the concern only goes in one direction. It's not this

1314
01:04:12,240 --> 01:04:14,480
Speaker 1: consistent like we should have transparency and people should know

1315
01:04:14,480 --> 01:04:17,240
Speaker 1: what they're investing in. It's you know, a value judgment

1316
01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:21,160
Speaker 1: about these particular things, and so DeSantis, for example, pulling

1317
01:04:21,160 --> 01:04:24,840
Speaker 1: funds from Black Rock, Ramaswami setting up his own fund

1318
01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:28,560
Speaker 1: that is being used to force companies to not care

1319
01:04:28,760 --> 01:04:31,520
Speaker 1: about these values. It's not that they want things to

1320
01:04:31,560 --> 01:04:34,840
Speaker 1: be neutral. It's that they have their own ideological agenda

1321
01:04:34,920 --> 01:04:37,560
Speaker 1: that they want to be represented by corporate America, that

1322
01:04:37,640 --> 01:04:40,520
Speaker 1: they felt like used to be reflected by corporate America,

1323
01:04:40,680 --> 01:04:44,640
Speaker 1: and you know, is not one hundred percent anymore. But ultimately,

1324
01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:46,800
Speaker 1: you know, my big takeaway from all of this is

1325
01:04:46,800 --> 01:04:49,440
Speaker 1: that it's very surface. It's a very surface level conversation.

1326
01:04:49,560 --> 01:04:51,959
Speaker 1: And I think that's reflected by the fact that Larry Fink,

1327
01:04:52,200 --> 01:04:54,760
Speaker 1: who has been a leader in talking about this and

1328
01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:58,880
Speaker 1: you know and creating this whole space, can so easily

1329
01:04:58,920 --> 01:05:00,600
Speaker 1: walk away from it and be like, yeah, we're not

1330
01:05:00,640 --> 01:05:01,360
Speaker 1: doing that anymore.

1331
01:05:01,680 --> 01:05:04,000
Speaker 3: I'm over at amazing, but I'm still going to talk

1332
01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:05,080
Speaker 3: about social If this.

1333
01:05:05,160 --> 01:05:07,920
Speaker 1: Was such a core part this are your values and

1334
01:05:07,960 --> 01:05:11,880
Speaker 1: your consciente capitalism, whatever, you wouldn't be freaked out by

1335
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:15,680
Speaker 1: a few presidential candidates or whatever calling out wokeness and

1336
01:05:15,720 --> 01:05:18,720
Speaker 1: saying esg and like demonizing the phrase you know, your

1337
01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:21,480
Speaker 1: core values, I think would supersede that. But apparently not

1338
01:05:21,520 --> 01:05:21,880
Speaker 1: the case.

1339
01:05:21,960 --> 01:05:23,880
Speaker 3: There is no core value on Wall Street except the.

1340
01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:26,520
Speaker 1: Dollar, the dollar, the almighty dollar. All right, let's get

1341
01:05:26,520 --> 01:05:30,600
Speaker 1: to the big changes at Fox News post Tucker Carlson.

1342
01:05:30,640 --> 01:05:32,800
Speaker 1: They made a big announcement yesterday, put this up on

1343
01:05:32,840 --> 01:05:35,840
Speaker 1: the screen. So they've got a reshuffling and an addition

1344
01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:40,280
Speaker 1: to their primetime lineup. So now the evening programming is

1345
01:05:40,320 --> 01:05:43,320
Speaker 1: going to go Laura Ingram, she was later in the evening.

1346
01:05:43,320 --> 01:05:46,560
Speaker 1: They're bumping her up to seven PM. Then filling in

1347
01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:49,680
Speaker 1: Tucker slot, you have Jesse Waters, so that's the big

1348
01:05:49,680 --> 01:05:52,840
Speaker 1: announcement is that Jesse Waters is taking over for Tucker

1349
01:05:52,880 --> 01:05:55,160
Speaker 1: at eight. Then you're gonna have Sean Hannity staying at nine,

1350
01:05:55,240 --> 01:05:59,880
Speaker 1: and you have Gutfeld moving into primetime at ten PM.

1351
01:06:00,120 --> 01:06:04,600
Speaker 1: This comes as post Tucker Fox News has been kind

1352
01:06:04,600 --> 01:06:08,320
Speaker 1: of struggling. Also, you know, MSNBC saw a big bump

1353
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:11,520
Speaker 1: with the indictment news that they went all in on,

1354
01:06:11,600 --> 01:06:13,960
Speaker 1: and especially since CNN has sort of like lost faith

1355
01:06:14,320 --> 01:06:18,760
Speaker 1: with the liberal resistance types. So MSNBC has really benefited

1356
01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:22,000
Speaker 1: from that. However, Fox News has and I think we

1357
01:06:22,080 --> 01:06:23,800
Speaker 1: have this put this up on the screen. Fox News

1358
01:06:23,840 --> 01:06:28,680
Speaker 1: has regained their number one primetime spot, but Sager, they

1359
01:06:28,720 --> 01:06:33,040
Speaker 1: still are down like a third in primetime viewership post Tucker.

1360
01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:36,880
Speaker 1: So I think there's I personally think it's unlikely that

1361
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:39,000
Speaker 1: Jesse Water is ever going to really you know, IOWA

1362
01:06:39,040 --> 01:06:41,240
Speaker 1: feel about Tucker obviously not a fan for a whole

1363
01:06:41,320 --> 01:06:43,200
Speaker 1: variety of reason. Also not a fan of Jesse Waters

1364
01:06:43,280 --> 01:06:45,320
Speaker 1: or literally any of the other people that I just mentioned.

1365
01:06:45,680 --> 01:06:47,400
Speaker 1: I think it's unlikely he's going to fill those shoes

1366
01:06:47,400 --> 01:06:50,000
Speaker 1: and be able to reclean those ratings. I also just

1367
01:06:50,040 --> 01:06:52,480
Speaker 1: think that that type of cable News stardom, as we've

1368
01:06:52,520 --> 01:06:55,120
Speaker 1: discussed in the past, is really on its way. It's

1369
01:06:55,120 --> 01:06:56,840
Speaker 1: just people have other options exactly.

1370
01:06:56,880 --> 01:06:59,360
Speaker 2: This just confirms what I really thought all along. They're

1371
01:06:59,360 --> 01:07:02,320
Speaker 2: purely in managed decline mode. They're not in the moonshot

1372
01:07:02,360 --> 01:07:04,440
Speaker 2: mode anymore. Tucker actually at the time was much more

1373
01:07:04,440 --> 01:07:06,600
Speaker 2: of a moonshot. They literally brought him out. He wasn't

1374
01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:09,600
Speaker 2: in the existing primetime lineup. They brought him in supposed

1375
01:07:09,600 --> 01:07:10,600
Speaker 2: to slott him into the ages.

1376
01:07:10,640 --> 01:07:12,560
Speaker 1: He go straight from weekend Fox.

1377
01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:14,720
Speaker 2: And so he was on Fox and Friends, Weekend Fox

1378
01:07:14,760 --> 01:07:17,120
Speaker 2: and Friends, which is the true doul drums then was

1379
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:19,880
Speaker 2: I think he was slotted in at like six o'clock,

1380
01:07:20,120 --> 01:07:21,960
Speaker 2: right in the middle of the O'Reilly mess, and then

1381
01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:24,360
Speaker 2: they moved him around, you know, specifically also when Meghan

1382
01:07:24,440 --> 01:07:26,840
Speaker 2: Kelly left, and to make him the eight PM. So

1383
01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:29,080
Speaker 2: the point though, is that with Jesse Waters, this is

1384
01:07:29,080 --> 01:07:31,840
Speaker 2: a known quantity on the Fox News program that somebody's

1385
01:07:31,840 --> 01:07:33,520
Speaker 2: literally been on for twenty something years.

1386
01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:35,600
Speaker 3: Who look, I think he's had a shot now.

1387
01:07:35,600 --> 01:07:36,959
Speaker 2: And if he was gonna be a star, he would

1388
01:07:36,960 --> 01:07:39,160
Speaker 2: have been a star already at this point. He was

1389
01:07:39,200 --> 01:07:43,000
Speaker 2: the anchor, I guess of the five and The problem

1390
01:07:43,120 --> 01:07:46,320
Speaker 2: is that by slotting him in there, you're basically just accepting, yeah,

1391
01:07:46,560 --> 01:07:48,720
Speaker 2: we're gonna drop by a third, and we're just gonna

1392
01:07:48,760 --> 01:07:49,080
Speaker 2: roll with it.

1393
01:07:49,120 --> 01:07:51,040
Speaker 3: We're just gonna keep going down this path.

1394
01:07:51,080 --> 01:07:51,200
Speaker 6: You know.

1395
01:07:51,280 --> 01:07:53,200
Speaker 3: Waters, Look again, I think the guy.

1396
01:07:54,160 --> 01:07:56,600
Speaker 2: Here's the thing about Jesse Waters. He's not original. There's

1397
01:07:56,600 --> 01:07:59,400
Speaker 2: nothing original about him. He's about his cookie cutter as

1398
01:07:59,440 --> 01:08:02,200
Speaker 2: Sean Hannon. He tries to borrow from some of the

1399
01:08:02,240 --> 01:08:05,920
Speaker 2: Tucker playbook to at least go in some interesting directions,

1400
01:08:05,920 --> 01:08:08,280
Speaker 2: and I think, unfortunately, you know, just in the long run,

1401
01:08:08,360 --> 01:08:11,160
Speaker 2: like that's just not going to work for the cable

1402
01:08:11,200 --> 01:08:15,480
Speaker 2: news platform itself if you're thinking from the perspective of Murdoch,

1403
01:08:15,520 --> 01:08:17,799
Speaker 2: who's actually running it. But you still got a multi

1404
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:20,200
Speaker 2: billion dollar enterprise on your hand, so you might as

1405
01:08:20,240 --> 01:08:22,519
Speaker 2: well just you know, keep the trains on time running.

1406
01:08:22,720 --> 01:08:25,080
Speaker 2: This is what MSNBC has done with Alice Wagner. This

1407
01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:27,240
Speaker 2: is now what they're doing over at Fox, I mean

1408
01:08:27,280 --> 01:08:29,759
Speaker 2: over at CNN, they're like basically not even trying anymore

1409
01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:32,160
Speaker 2: to try and you know, trying to get more people

1410
01:08:32,160 --> 01:08:33,960
Speaker 2: to watch you know, whatever the hell was going on.

1411
01:08:34,160 --> 01:08:34,840
Speaker 3: Yeah over there.

1412
01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:36,920
Speaker 2: So this is this is it, Like this is what

1413
01:08:37,080 --> 01:08:40,040
Speaker 2: decline looks like. So in that way, I guess we

1414
01:08:40,080 --> 01:08:41,559
Speaker 2: should celebrate. I think it's interesting.

1415
01:08:41,720 --> 01:08:43,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're still going to have a lot of cultural power.

1416
01:08:44,000 --> 01:08:45,960
Speaker 1: Like I don't want people to delude themselves about that.

1417
01:08:46,040 --> 01:08:47,680
Speaker 1: All of these networks are going to continue to have

1418
01:08:47,720 --> 01:08:50,160
Speaker 1: a lot of cultural power because the last people that

1419
01:08:50,200 --> 01:08:52,519
Speaker 1: will be watching these shows are like the denizens of

1420
01:08:52,560 --> 01:08:54,919
Speaker 1: the city that we live in, and you know, unfortunately

1421
01:08:54,960 --> 01:08:57,160
Speaker 1: they have a lot of power. So it still matters

1422
01:08:57,200 --> 01:09:00,720
Speaker 1: a lot would have said on these airwaves. But you know,

1423
01:09:00,800 --> 01:09:03,360
Speaker 1: the other piece is if you are someone who is

1424
01:09:03,400 --> 01:09:07,120
Speaker 1: original and you know, creative and is saying things that

1425
01:09:07,160 --> 01:09:10,320
Speaker 1: aren't being said elsewhere. Number One, that's a risk for

1426
01:09:10,400 --> 01:09:13,439
Speaker 1: cable news. They like people who sound the same and

1427
01:09:13,520 --> 01:09:16,400
Speaker 1: are predictable in their you know, who they're outraged at

1428
01:09:16,439 --> 01:09:19,280
Speaker 1: and how they portray things, et cetera. That's easier for them,

1429
01:09:19,320 --> 01:09:22,959
Speaker 1: it's easier for their audience to make sure that everybody's

1430
01:09:22,960 --> 01:09:27,320
Speaker 1: staying in line, easier for their political allies and their advertisers,

1431
01:09:27,320 --> 01:09:31,439
Speaker 1: et cetera. But also, like, if you are going to

1432
01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:33,880
Speaker 1: take that shot of doing something different, there's just so

1433
01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:36,200
Speaker 1: many other places that you can go where You're going

1434
01:09:36,280 --> 01:09:38,040
Speaker 1: to be able to aren't a good living, You're going

1435
01:09:38,080 --> 01:09:39,680
Speaker 1: to be able to have a lot more freedom, not

1436
01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:42,320
Speaker 1: have the bullshit that comes with being on cable news

1437
01:09:42,400 --> 01:09:44,639
Speaker 1: and having a corporate boss and the whims of your

1438
01:09:44,640 --> 01:09:47,640
Speaker 1: fate hanging, you know, by the arbitrary decisions of some

1439
01:09:47,880 --> 01:09:52,479
Speaker 1: random person and a c suite. So yeah, another sign

1440
01:09:52,520 --> 01:09:55,800
Speaker 1: of the times, more evidence that every single one of

1441
01:09:55,840 --> 01:09:58,000
Speaker 1: these cable news networks is looking at the writing on

1442
01:09:58,040 --> 01:10:01,639
Speaker 1: the wall and they are are saying that the best

1443
01:10:01,680 --> 01:10:04,400
Speaker 1: they can hope for is just to you know, hold

1444
01:10:04,439 --> 01:10:07,400
Speaker 1: on to what they've got for as long as possible.

1445
01:10:07,479 --> 01:10:10,280
Speaker 2: Right, And actually, one major sign that things in terms

1446
01:10:10,280 --> 01:10:12,400
Speaker 2: of the Tucker direction are done, let's put this up

1447
01:10:12,439 --> 01:10:16,400
Speaker 2: there on the screen. Sources apparently saying that Fox terminated

1448
01:10:16,680 --> 01:10:20,200
Speaker 2: all of Tucker's former staff. They still, though, want them

1449
01:10:20,240 --> 01:10:24,240
Speaker 2: remaining employees to continue working until mid July. According to

1450
01:10:24,280 --> 01:10:27,400
Speaker 2: a former Tucker staffer, They say that they were told

1451
01:10:27,479 --> 01:10:30,400
Speaker 2: that they had to keep producing the Fox News Tonight

1452
01:10:30,479 --> 01:10:32,960
Speaker 2: show until the show ends in July, at which point

1453
01:10:33,000 --> 01:10:34,480
Speaker 2: they will be tournament terminated.

1454
01:10:34,760 --> 01:10:35,599
Speaker 3: If they do not.

1455
01:10:35,680 --> 01:10:38,920
Speaker 2: Comply, then they will lose all of their severance. In

1456
01:10:39,000 --> 01:10:42,360
Speaker 2: the meantime, so pretty unceremonious in terms of getting kicked

1457
01:10:42,600 --> 01:10:44,639
Speaker 2: to the curb because they were seen as too loyal

1458
01:10:44,720 --> 01:10:46,080
Speaker 2: to the previous talent.

1459
01:10:46,120 --> 01:10:46,919
Speaker 3: I guess Jesse.

1460
01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:50,639
Speaker 2: Waters will bring in his waters world, you know whatever,

1461
01:10:50,680 --> 01:10:53,720
Speaker 2: the old guys from the O'Reilly's staff to come and

1462
01:10:53,800 --> 01:10:54,080
Speaker 2: run it.

1463
01:10:54,200 --> 01:10:56,680
Speaker 3: So good luck Jesse. I guess I don't think he's

1464
01:10:56,680 --> 01:10:57,280
Speaker 3: going to work out.

1465
01:11:00,160 --> 01:11:02,800
Speaker 1: Let's get to the big story of the day, which is,

1466
01:11:02,960 --> 01:11:07,120
Speaker 1: as we tease the beginning, we have officially hit one

1467
01:11:07,120 --> 01:11:10,840
Speaker 1: million subscribers. In fact, we kind of shot past it.

1468
01:11:10,920 --> 01:11:11,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, we certainly did.

1469
01:11:11,840 --> 01:11:13,599
Speaker 1: We gave ourselves a little bit of wiggle room.

1470
01:11:13,640 --> 01:11:13,840
Speaker 3: Here.

1471
01:11:14,160 --> 01:11:17,799
Speaker 1: Looks like we're right now at one million, two thousand.

1472
01:11:17,880 --> 01:11:20,000
Speaker 1: Let me refresh here, make sure it's accurate. Get us

1473
01:11:20,000 --> 01:11:24,519
Speaker 1: the one million, two three hundred and thirty. And we

1474
01:11:24,600 --> 01:11:29,000
Speaker 1: cannot say thank you enough to you guys for being here,

1475
01:11:29,120 --> 01:11:31,720
Speaker 1: for some of you from back Rising days coming on

1476
01:11:31,760 --> 01:11:35,519
Speaker 1: board right when we launched, and also for getting us

1477
01:11:35,520 --> 01:11:37,919
Speaker 1: over a million so we could give Sager a proper

1478
01:11:38,280 --> 01:11:40,880
Speaker 1: send off for wedding ceremony number one.

1479
01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:44,479
Speaker 2: I appreciate that very much, everybody for stepping up, not

1480
01:11:44,640 --> 01:11:46,880
Speaker 2: just for me, I mean, this is even just about us.

1481
01:11:46,920 --> 01:11:48,920
Speaker 3: I think it's about everyone. I mean, we're in a

1482
01:11:49,000 --> 01:11:49,799
Speaker 3: very unique position.

1483
01:11:49,840 --> 01:11:52,599
Speaker 2: I've been thinking about this a lot, which is we

1484
01:11:52,720 --> 01:11:56,000
Speaker 2: eat Crystal have not now built one channel to a million.

1485
01:11:56,040 --> 01:11:57,960
Speaker 3: We have built two channels to a million. And very

1486
01:11:58,000 --> 01:11:58,639
Speaker 3: few people in.

1487
01:11:58,600 --> 01:12:00,559
Speaker 2: This life can say that they've done any thing like that,

1488
01:12:01,000 --> 01:12:03,639
Speaker 2: specifically in four years, which I think is crazy.

1489
01:12:04,160 --> 01:12:05,679
Speaker 3: And you know, it was a huge risk.

1490
01:12:05,720 --> 01:12:07,960
Speaker 2: There were multiple times where we didn't know if this

1491
01:12:08,080 --> 01:12:10,240
Speaker 2: was going to work, you know, should we leave, should

1492
01:12:10,280 --> 01:12:12,519
Speaker 2: we not leave. There were multiple people who told us

1493
01:12:12,560 --> 01:12:14,000
Speaker 2: that we would be okay. But it's one thing to

1494
01:12:14,040 --> 01:12:15,479
Speaker 2: hear it on the end of a phone and one

1495
01:12:15,479 --> 01:12:18,120
Speaker 2: thing to actually see it materialize. And you know, we

1496
01:12:18,120 --> 01:12:22,320
Speaker 2: were deeply worried about our ability to recoup the subscriber

1497
01:12:22,360 --> 01:12:25,000
Speaker 2: base that we had built over at the Hill. Obviously

1498
01:12:25,000 --> 01:12:27,559
Speaker 2: that was delaid pretty soon, you know, after we launched.

1499
01:12:27,560 --> 01:12:29,800
Speaker 2: But again it was a gamble and it was one

1500
01:12:29,880 --> 01:12:32,280
Speaker 2: which ultimately did pay off, of which we're very lucky,

1501
01:12:32,280 --> 01:12:35,240
Speaker 2: and we owe everybody who stepped up for us and

1502
01:12:35,320 --> 01:12:38,840
Speaker 2: for in a four year period, actually exactly four years.

1503
01:12:38,840 --> 01:12:39,479
Speaker 3: I was looking back.

1504
01:12:39,479 --> 01:12:42,639
Speaker 2: I sent you that photo yesterday from June of two

1505
01:12:42,640 --> 01:12:45,960
Speaker 2: thousand and nineteen was the first time that we were

1506
01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:49,840
Speaker 2: officially kind of hosting Rising together, and that time we

1507
01:12:49,920 --> 01:12:53,960
Speaker 2: had six thousand YouTube subscribers six thousand the day that

1508
01:12:54,000 --> 01:12:56,400
Speaker 2: we started over at the Hill, so I mean I

1509
01:12:56,479 --> 01:12:59,200
Speaker 2: basically count that as zero. We built that the day

1510
01:12:59,200 --> 01:13:01,920
Speaker 2: we left was one point three five million. And then

1511
01:13:02,040 --> 01:13:04,280
Speaker 2: you know, to be here, you know, four years later,

1512
01:13:04,560 --> 01:13:07,200
Speaker 2: almost to the day, having built two channels to a million,

1513
01:13:07,640 --> 01:13:09,920
Speaker 2: is you know, a testament really to the people who

1514
01:13:09,960 --> 01:13:12,160
Speaker 2: believe so much in the way that we do our show.

1515
01:13:12,560 --> 01:13:14,559
Speaker 2: And there are you know, so many people who we've

1516
01:13:15,080 --> 01:13:18,280
Speaker 2: heard from about one million, who are like I subscribed,

1517
01:13:18,400 --> 01:13:21,360
Speaker 2: I created like seven Gmail accounts, like I got my

1518
01:13:21,479 --> 01:13:24,320
Speaker 2: mom to subscribe, I got my dad to subscribe, my

1519
01:13:24,439 --> 01:13:25,639
Speaker 2: sister whatever.

1520
01:13:25,680 --> 01:13:27,760
Speaker 3: I mean, that just shows us how much it means

1521
01:13:27,800 --> 01:13:29,559
Speaker 3: to you and to you all of you.

1522
01:13:29,720 --> 01:13:32,920
Speaker 2: I mean, we're just so thankful. Our producers put this

1523
01:13:33,200 --> 01:13:35,280
Speaker 2: together a little montage. Let's go and put this up

1524
01:13:35,280 --> 01:13:36,759
Speaker 2: there on the screen.

1525
01:13:37,120 --> 01:13:40,400
Speaker 1: That's me day one, the old set, that was the

1526
01:13:40,439 --> 01:13:41,120
Speaker 1: original that.

1527
01:13:41,200 --> 01:13:42,120
Speaker 3: Was the original one.

1528
01:13:42,160 --> 01:13:44,519
Speaker 2: There was you you know, if you could see there,

1529
01:13:45,000 --> 01:13:47,920
Speaker 2: there's ourp that was our New York show, Marshall and Kyle.

1530
01:13:49,560 --> 01:13:52,639
Speaker 2: That was our first count points. That was our play

1531
01:13:52,680 --> 01:13:55,080
Speaker 2: button that arrived actually right when we launched. And then

1532
01:13:55,120 --> 01:13:58,320
Speaker 2: there we go the obviously the brand new set, there's

1533
01:13:58,360 --> 01:14:00,679
Speaker 2: the there's the graphic, the official one.

1534
01:14:00,560 --> 01:14:05,000
Speaker 1: Million, brilliant foresight to actually record shout out to our

1535
01:14:05,040 --> 01:14:07,479
Speaker 1: social I recorded as well, but I did it in

1536
01:14:07,479 --> 01:14:09,760
Speaker 1: the most boomer way pop of using my phone to

1537
01:14:09,800 --> 01:14:14,479
Speaker 1: record the screen on my laptop. But yeah, I want

1538
01:14:14,479 --> 01:14:16,120
Speaker 1: to There's a lot I want to say. I mean,

1539
01:14:16,160 --> 01:14:18,880
Speaker 1: first of all, as you were alluding to soccer, the

1540
01:14:18,920 --> 01:14:22,760
Speaker 1: most painful part of leaving Rising was after I mean,

1541
01:14:22,800 --> 01:14:25,320
Speaker 1: we worked really hard to build that channel and now

1542
01:14:25,439 --> 01:14:27,680
Speaker 1: to walk away from when we just had not that

1543
01:14:27,760 --> 01:14:30,679
Speaker 1: long ago, hit a million subscribers. That was that hurt.

1544
01:14:30,840 --> 01:14:33,320
Speaker 1: That definitely hurt. That was definitely one of the hardest

1545
01:14:33,360 --> 01:14:36,720
Speaker 1: parts of walking away from there, because you know, you

1546
01:14:36,920 --> 01:14:39,840
Speaker 1: hope that things are going to work out, but there

1547
01:14:39,920 --> 01:14:41,439
Speaker 1: was a real chance that we were never going to

1548
01:14:41,479 --> 01:14:45,479
Speaker 1: see that number again. And to do it on our

1549
01:14:45,560 --> 01:14:48,720
Speaker 1: own terms, to do it independent instead of under a

1550
01:14:48,760 --> 01:14:53,760
Speaker 1: corporate brand, it means so much more. And you know,

1551
01:14:53,840 --> 01:14:57,600
Speaker 1: the show has shifted and changed a lot as the

1552
01:14:57,640 --> 01:15:00,160
Speaker 1: news has developed, as what you all have been looking

1553
01:15:00,200 --> 01:15:04,400
Speaker 1: for has changed. Thank you so much for sticking with

1554
01:15:04,520 --> 01:15:06,639
Speaker 1: us through all of that, whether it was the height

1555
01:15:06,680 --> 01:15:09,920
Speaker 1: of a political cycle, whether it was during COVID, whether

1556
01:15:09,960 --> 01:15:12,960
Speaker 1: it was during the Ukraine War, any of the crazy

1557
01:15:13,000 --> 01:15:15,040
Speaker 1: twist and turns of our politics that you all have

1558
01:15:15,080 --> 01:15:18,000
Speaker 1: shown up to hear what we have to say. I

1559
01:15:18,160 --> 01:15:21,439
Speaker 1: cannot say enough how seriously we take that and how

1560
01:15:21,560 --> 01:15:24,840
Speaker 1: much it means to us. So thank you, thank you,

1561
01:15:25,080 --> 01:15:27,760
Speaker 1: thank you. I also want to say shout out to

1562
01:15:27,920 --> 01:15:31,080
Speaker 1: our whole crew that have been amazing. I mean it's

1563
01:15:31,160 --> 01:15:34,400
Speaker 1: been a lot for everybody, building the set, figuring out

1564
01:15:34,439 --> 01:15:36,920
Speaker 1: the tech, figuring out the lights, figuring out the sound,

1565
01:15:37,240 --> 01:15:39,800
Speaker 1: all of that, and these guys have been, you know,

1566
01:15:39,960 --> 01:15:43,160
Speaker 1: working long hours to make this all look as great

1567
01:15:43,200 --> 01:15:45,840
Speaker 1: as it possibly can. We're still continuing to learn and

1568
01:15:45,880 --> 01:15:49,160
Speaker 1: tweak and grow on that front. And special shout out

1569
01:15:49,200 --> 01:15:52,439
Speaker 1: to our producers, Griffin and Mack. I said this to

1570
01:15:52,479 --> 01:15:55,200
Speaker 1: them privately, but I'll say it publicly as well. It

1571
01:15:55,280 --> 01:15:59,040
Speaker 1: is no accident that we're able now to accelerate and

1572
01:15:59,120 --> 01:16:02,479
Speaker 1: achieve this miles own with them on board, and you

1573
01:16:02,479 --> 01:16:05,200
Speaker 1: know they haven't even been here a full year yet,

1574
01:16:05,479 --> 01:16:08,040
Speaker 1: but the impact that both of them have had on

1575
01:16:08,320 --> 01:16:11,639
Speaker 1: the show, on the level of professionalism, on what we're

1576
01:16:11,680 --> 01:16:13,840
Speaker 1: able to do and focus on because they have so

1577
01:16:14,000 --> 01:16:17,839
Speaker 1: much of the rest of the operation handled has truly

1578
01:16:17,920 --> 01:16:21,000
Speaker 1: been second to none. Of These guys are absolutely incredible

1579
01:16:21,120 --> 01:16:23,479
Speaker 1: and so thank you guys out there. Thank you to

1580
01:16:23,520 --> 01:16:26,600
Speaker 1: Mac and Griffin. Thanks to all of you premium subscribers,

1581
01:16:26,640 --> 01:16:29,120
Speaker 1: YouTube subscribers are all playing your part and helping to

1582
01:16:29,439 --> 01:16:31,960
Speaker 1: fund their salaries, fund this operation, fund the new set,

1583
01:16:32,000 --> 01:16:32,920
Speaker 1: and get us to this point.

1584
01:16:33,000 --> 01:16:33,280
Speaker 3: Thank you.

1585
01:16:33,439 --> 01:16:35,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, the premiums in particular, you guys had our back

1586
01:16:35,960 --> 01:16:38,519
Speaker 2: from day one. You gave us the confidence, the ability

1587
01:16:38,560 --> 01:16:41,519
Speaker 2: to invest continuing the show, to hire the best talent

1588
01:16:41,600 --> 01:16:44,160
Speaker 2: possible that we could find out there, and to find

1589
01:16:44,200 --> 01:16:46,760
Speaker 2: people who care as much about the show as you do.

1590
01:16:46,840 --> 01:16:48,640
Speaker 2: And that's what you know, the two of us we

1591
01:16:48,720 --> 01:16:51,400
Speaker 2: hammer home every day, which is like these there are

1592
01:16:51,439 --> 01:16:52,639
Speaker 2: real people behind the screen.

1593
01:16:52,880 --> 01:16:54,040
Speaker 3: They care a lot about the show.

1594
01:16:54,040 --> 01:16:56,040
Speaker 2: They've invested in this and every single one of us

1595
01:16:56,160 --> 01:16:58,200
Speaker 2: is going to work our asses off to make sure

1596
01:16:58,360 --> 01:17:01,000
Speaker 2: that they get the best possible experisperience that they deserve,

1597
01:17:01,360 --> 01:17:03,519
Speaker 2: that they paid for, and to be able to spread

1598
01:17:03,560 --> 01:17:06,559
Speaker 2: it to everyone that they possibly can. So look, we

1599
01:17:06,600 --> 01:17:09,879
Speaker 2: will never ever ever take anything that we do for granted,

1600
01:17:10,040 --> 01:17:11,680
Speaker 2: some of this still doesn't even feel real. You know

1601
01:17:11,720 --> 01:17:13,760
Speaker 2: what it's like now, I swear I was just doing

1602
01:17:13,800 --> 01:17:16,599
Speaker 2: the show. We're starting a rising like yesterday. I can't

1603
01:17:16,640 --> 01:17:18,599
Speaker 2: believe it's for every time I.

1604
01:17:18,560 --> 01:17:21,160
Speaker 1: Look at the show now, it's still like, whoa look

1605
01:17:21,200 --> 01:17:23,360
Speaker 1: at her set set?

1606
01:17:23,520 --> 01:17:25,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's nuts, you know, to just let it all

1607
01:17:25,640 --> 01:17:26,040
Speaker 3: sink in.

1608
01:17:26,120 --> 01:17:28,200
Speaker 2: So I don't want to be too self indulgent or

1609
01:17:28,320 --> 01:17:30,240
Speaker 2: whatever about this, And that's why I think we should

1610
01:17:30,240 --> 01:17:32,960
Speaker 2: just focus the bulk of our Thanks to everybody who

1611
01:17:32,960 --> 01:17:34,960
Speaker 2: has watched this rising.

1612
01:17:35,240 --> 01:17:37,080
Speaker 1: You've got an end of the deal to hang hold

1613
01:17:37,120 --> 01:17:37,400
Speaker 1: up there.

1614
01:17:37,360 --> 01:17:37,720
Speaker 3: That's right.

1615
01:17:37,880 --> 01:17:40,280
Speaker 2: So I said I would do it, and I will

1616
01:17:40,320 --> 01:17:41,880
Speaker 2: be back my very first show.

1617
01:17:41,880 --> 01:17:44,200
Speaker 3: I'm probably gonna be pre jet lagged, so forgive me.

1618
01:17:44,680 --> 01:17:48,320
Speaker 3: I will be in full Indian garb and in sneakers

1619
01:17:48,400 --> 01:17:50,800
Speaker 3: and uh maybe i'll even while I'm in India.

1620
01:17:50,800 --> 01:17:53,559
Speaker 2: I'll tweet out some images and let people decide what

1621
01:17:53,600 --> 01:17:56,519
Speaker 2: the garb should be, which one I should go with.

1622
01:17:56,760 --> 01:17:57,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I'll make it a.

1623
01:17:57,720 --> 01:18:00,400
Speaker 2: More of inexperience. I'll let the premiums decide about that.

1624
01:18:00,520 --> 01:18:02,960
Speaker 2: I'll send it to Griffin. I'll send everybody some options.

1625
01:18:02,960 --> 01:18:05,360
Speaker 2: You guys can decide what it's going to be, and

1626
01:18:05,400 --> 01:18:07,759
Speaker 2: that's what I'll do. I'll show up in the show

1627
01:18:08,120 --> 01:18:10,760
Speaker 2: that I made a commitment to everybody man in my word,

1628
01:18:10,800 --> 01:18:13,720
Speaker 2: I've eaten a sock here on I've what else have

1629
01:18:13,760 --> 01:18:14,040
Speaker 2: I done?

1630
01:18:14,040 --> 01:18:14,320
Speaker 8: I wore a.

1631
01:18:14,320 --> 01:18:15,639
Speaker 2: Hoodie with a suit, which is one of the most

1632
01:18:15,640 --> 01:18:18,679
Speaker 2: heinous things I've ever done, crime against fashion. I'm ready

1633
01:18:18,720 --> 01:18:21,120
Speaker 2: to do it again, to wear my Indian gar with sneakers,

1634
01:18:21,120 --> 01:18:23,719
Speaker 2: which I don't think anyone should do, but people apparently

1635
01:18:23,720 --> 01:18:25,320
Speaker 2: wanted to see it. I'm told that was one of

1636
01:18:25,360 --> 01:18:26,599
Speaker 2: the main reasons that many people.

1637
01:18:27,760 --> 01:18:30,680
Speaker 1: And we'll do what it takes you. I'll do any

1638
01:18:30,840 --> 01:18:31,559
Speaker 1: shame in our game.

1639
01:18:32,560 --> 01:18:34,800
Speaker 2: If it makes feel happy, then so be it. So

1640
01:18:34,960 --> 01:18:37,000
Speaker 2: that's what we care about the most here over at

1641
01:18:37,000 --> 01:18:37,320
Speaker 2: the show.

1642
01:18:37,960 --> 01:18:40,080
Speaker 3: That's it. Thank you, guys, We appreciate you. Thank you.

1643
01:18:40,160 --> 01:18:41,880
Speaker 3: Great guest standing by. Let's get to it.

1644
01:18:44,960 --> 01:18:47,400
Speaker 1: Excited to speak with a new guest on the show today.

1645
01:18:47,400 --> 01:18:50,240
Speaker 1: We have Josh Jess. He is investigations editor for The

1646
01:18:50,320 --> 01:18:52,479
Speaker 1: Verge and he just wrote a fascinating new story in

1647
01:18:52,479 --> 01:18:57,120
Speaker 1: partnership with New York Magazine on the human costs of AI, Josh.

1648
01:18:56,800 --> 01:18:58,439
Speaker 3: Great to have you, Thanks for having me.

1649
01:18:58,520 --> 01:19:00,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's our pleasure. Let's go and put your piece

1650
01:19:00,400 --> 01:19:02,840
Speaker 1: up on the screen so folks can take a look

1651
01:19:03,080 --> 01:19:06,880
Speaker 1: at the tear sheet. Here, you were able to report

1652
01:19:06,920 --> 01:19:09,960
Speaker 1: on the human beings who are doing a lot of

1653
01:19:10,000 --> 01:19:13,640
Speaker 1: the legwork behind the AI that a lot of us

1654
01:19:13,640 --> 01:19:17,160
Speaker 1: are engaging with in our lives, sometimes without even realizing it.

1655
01:19:17,200 --> 01:19:19,120
Speaker 1: The headline here is AI is a lot of work.

1656
01:19:19,320 --> 01:19:24,120
Speaker 1: As the technology becomes ubiquitous, a vast tasker underclass is

1657
01:19:24,160 --> 01:19:26,880
Speaker 1: emerging and not going anywhere. So just tell us a

1658
01:19:26,880 --> 01:19:28,000
Speaker 1: little bit about what you found.

1659
01:19:28,760 --> 01:19:33,479
Speaker 10: So AI is trained on data, but before that can happen,

1660
01:19:34,200 --> 01:19:36,640
Speaker 10: humans need to go in and curate or label, or

1661
01:19:36,640 --> 01:19:42,400
Speaker 10: sometimes tailor make that data. The system behind this data

1662
01:19:42,479 --> 01:19:46,280
Speaker 10: production or annotation as it's often called, is super opaque.

1663
01:19:46,320 --> 01:19:52,240
Speaker 10: There's data vendors, private companies, or platforms where people from

1664
01:19:52,280 --> 01:19:54,599
Speaker 10: all around the world do this work. They often don't

1665
01:19:54,600 --> 01:19:58,120
Speaker 10: know who they're working for. So I wanted to find

1666
01:19:58,120 --> 01:20:01,840
Speaker 10: out more about how that system works and how it's

1667
01:20:01,960 --> 01:20:02,959
Speaker 10: changed as.

1668
01:20:02,840 --> 01:20:04,320
Speaker 7: AI has developed.

1669
01:20:04,320 --> 01:20:07,080
Speaker 10: As we've seen kind of the move toward these lars

1670
01:20:07,120 --> 01:20:08,960
Speaker 10: language models like chat cheapt.

1671
01:20:09,880 --> 01:20:12,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so tell us a little bit about like

1672
01:20:12,200 --> 01:20:15,360
Speaker 2: how this will expand in the future as chat, GPT

1673
01:20:15,680 --> 01:20:19,519
Speaker 2: and other lms become ubiquitous. We've seen the Googles, I

1674
01:20:19,560 --> 01:20:21,559
Speaker 2: believe this Google AI chief came out and said, Oh,

1675
01:20:21,560 --> 01:20:23,559
Speaker 2: we're going to come out with something soon that's going

1676
01:20:23,640 --> 01:20:26,320
Speaker 2: to crush chat, chept and all of this. It's not

1677
01:20:26,400 --> 01:20:29,120
Speaker 2: all software, it's millions of humans. As you describe, what

1678
01:20:29,160 --> 01:20:29,840
Speaker 2: does that look like?

1679
01:20:30,400 --> 01:20:32,880
Speaker 10: Yeah, so it looks like if you've I'm sure you've

1680
01:20:32,920 --> 01:20:34,120
Speaker 10: done capture before.

1681
01:20:34,479 --> 01:20:35,800
Speaker 7: I don't approve you're not a robot.

1682
01:20:35,800 --> 01:20:38,880
Speaker 10: I think that's also data annotation, and so it's sort

1683
01:20:38,920 --> 01:20:41,680
Speaker 10: of a very sophisticated form of that, at least the

1684
01:20:41,720 --> 01:20:46,479
Speaker 10: image labeling stuff. It's you know, tracing outlines of traffic

1685
01:20:46,560 --> 01:20:49,600
Speaker 10: cones at a pixel level to frame by frame for

1686
01:20:49,640 --> 01:20:53,080
Speaker 10: self driving cars, and then with texts, it's chatting with

1687
01:20:53,200 --> 01:20:56,280
Speaker 10: chatbots and then critiquing their responses based on a bunch

1688
01:20:56,320 --> 01:21:01,559
Speaker 10: of different criteria. There's also so elements of it where

1689
01:21:01,560 --> 01:21:04,080
Speaker 10: you're writing, you're sort of pretending to be the chatbot

1690
01:21:04,200 --> 01:21:06,679
Speaker 10: that you know the engineers want to have, and you're

1691
01:21:06,800 --> 01:21:11,120
Speaker 10: giving good answers for questions writing computer code if you

1692
01:21:11,160 --> 01:21:14,360
Speaker 10: want it to be able to program, and so that's

1693
01:21:14,479 --> 01:21:18,680
Speaker 10: all sort of the launch process. And there's a conception

1694
01:21:19,439 --> 01:21:21,800
Speaker 10: often that you know, you just do this work, you

1695
01:21:21,800 --> 01:21:23,559
Speaker 10: need this work to sort of get started, and then

1696
01:21:23,800 --> 01:21:26,280
Speaker 10: the model is good enough that it doesn't need the

1697
01:21:26,360 --> 01:21:30,400
Speaker 10: humans anymore. What I found is that there's a growing

1698
01:21:30,400 --> 01:21:32,639
Speaker 10: recognition that's not really how it works.

1699
01:21:32,760 --> 01:21:35,400
Speaker 7: One, you know, if you want to keep getting.

1700
01:21:35,200 --> 01:21:39,360
Speaker 10: Better AI, you need more people doing new, often trickier

1701
01:21:39,400 --> 01:21:43,360
Speaker 10: forms of annotation. And then also because these systems are

1702
01:21:43,360 --> 01:21:46,439
Speaker 10: really brittle, like they struggle in situations that aren't represented

1703
01:21:46,479 --> 01:21:50,160
Speaker 10: in their training data. Whenever they're encountering something like that,

1704
01:21:50,360 --> 01:21:52,920
Speaker 10: or the world changes, or you know, there's an event

1705
01:21:53,000 --> 01:21:56,120
Speaker 10: in the news that now people are talking about, you

1706
01:21:56,160 --> 01:22:00,080
Speaker 10: need humans to go in and sort of add more data, annotate.

1707
01:21:59,640 --> 01:22:01,679
Speaker 7: The data, kind of keep these systems up to date.

1708
01:22:01,800 --> 01:22:04,240
Speaker 10: And so one of the things that we're seeing is

1709
01:22:05,520 --> 01:22:08,439
Speaker 10: these systems are out and the world more, they're running

1710
01:22:08,439 --> 01:22:10,559
Speaker 10: into more of these educases, and you need more humans

1711
01:22:10,600 --> 01:22:12,559
Speaker 10: kind of standing by to help them out.

1712
01:22:13,400 --> 01:22:15,439
Speaker 1: So you talk to some of the people who do

1713
01:22:15,520 --> 01:22:18,439
Speaker 1: this as their work. They don't even really call it jobs,

1714
01:22:18,439 --> 01:22:21,080
Speaker 1: you say, they call themselves taskers, Like what is the

1715
01:22:21,160 --> 01:22:24,920
Speaker 1: day to day reality of existence for these individuals.

1716
01:22:25,920 --> 01:22:29,479
Speaker 7: It varies a lot. So I talked to a lot

1717
01:22:29,920 --> 01:22:30,280
Speaker 7: of this work.

1718
01:22:30,280 --> 01:22:32,599
Speaker 10: It's done on these kind of game platform things where

1719
01:22:32,600 --> 01:22:35,840
Speaker 10: you sign up and you know, it's one of these

1720
01:22:36,000 --> 01:22:38,280
Speaker 10: ins that offers work from home. You maybe take some

1721
01:22:38,400 --> 01:22:42,240
Speaker 10: tests that qualify you for certain tasks, and there will

1722
01:22:42,320 --> 01:22:46,160
Speaker 10: be some project it has some intecutable code name like pillbox,

1723
01:22:46,240 --> 01:22:50,680
Speaker 10: Bratwurst or something is something you know, maybe maybe you're

1724
01:22:50,680 --> 01:22:52,519
Speaker 10: talking to the chatbot and it's there and you're getting

1725
01:22:52,560 --> 01:22:55,519
Speaker 10: paid a couple cents or maybe a few dollars for

1726
01:22:55,600 --> 01:22:58,120
Speaker 10: every task that you do, and you don't really know

1727
01:22:58,120 --> 01:23:00,120
Speaker 10: how long it's going to last. So if there's something

1728
01:23:00,160 --> 01:23:02,760
Speaker 10: that's paying well, people tend to just sort of do

1729
01:23:02,800 --> 01:23:05,120
Speaker 10: it as much as they can, work the longest hours

1730
01:23:05,160 --> 01:23:07,280
Speaker 10: they possibly can, you know, possibly stay up for days

1731
01:23:07,320 --> 01:23:10,559
Speaker 10: to do it, because at some point the data won't

1732
01:23:10,600 --> 01:23:12,920
Speaker 10: be needed anymore for a while anyway, and the project

1733
01:23:12,920 --> 01:23:16,920
Speaker 10: will end and then you'll have to, you know, hopefully,

1734
01:23:17,120 --> 01:23:18,760
Speaker 10: in the best case scenario, you have to learn how

1735
01:23:18,800 --> 01:23:21,680
Speaker 10: to do a new task and start working on that.

1736
01:23:21,720 --> 01:23:23,840
Speaker 10: In the worst case, there's just nothing and then you're

1737
01:23:23,960 --> 01:23:27,040
Speaker 10: out of work for some unknown amount of time.

1738
01:23:27,479 --> 01:23:29,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was kind of my question is that obviously

1739
01:23:30,000 --> 01:23:32,760
Speaker 2: this is a vulnerability, and since these people are all

1740
01:23:32,800 --> 01:23:36,080
Speaker 2: about automation and software, are they trying to automate these

1741
01:23:36,120 --> 01:23:37,160
Speaker 2: people out of existence?

1742
01:23:37,240 --> 01:23:39,960
Speaker 7: Josh, very yet, very much.

1743
01:23:40,000 --> 01:23:42,919
Speaker 10: So there's I mean, this data is also very expensive,

1744
01:23:44,400 --> 01:23:46,519
Speaker 10: and so there's a lot of work being done to

1745
01:23:46,560 --> 01:23:49,680
Speaker 10: automate it. And if you look at the history of

1746
01:23:50,000 --> 01:23:53,320
Speaker 10: machine learning development, it's kind of always being automated away.

1747
01:23:53,560 --> 01:23:56,360
Speaker 10: But then it's also you know, that doesn't mean that

1748
01:23:56,400 --> 01:23:57,639
Speaker 10: you don't need annotation anymore.

1749
01:23:57,640 --> 01:23:59,799
Speaker 7: It just means you need a different type of annotation.

1750
01:24:00,240 --> 01:24:04,040
Speaker 10: So like the early image recognition stuff, you know, people

1751
01:24:04,040 --> 01:24:06,160
Speaker 10: went through and they labeled cats and dogs and airplanes

1752
01:24:06,200 --> 01:24:09,559
Speaker 10: and buses or whatever. That is all. You know, that's easy.

1753
01:24:09,680 --> 01:24:14,360
Speaker 10: Now that's all automated away. But then it enables self

1754
01:24:14,400 --> 01:24:18,040
Speaker 10: driving cars and that requires even more people doing even

1755
01:24:18,360 --> 01:24:23,400
Speaker 10: more technical and tricky annotation and labeling because the stakes

1756
01:24:23,400 --> 01:24:27,200
Speaker 10: are higher and the world was complicated and trying to

1757
01:24:27,200 --> 01:24:30,200
Speaker 10: get a self driving car to navigate it is extremely difficult.

1758
01:24:31,160 --> 01:24:33,519
Speaker 1: So it seems to me, like I mean, the fears,

1759
01:24:33,600 --> 01:24:36,800
Speaker 1: some of the worries with AI and especially with you know,

1760
01:24:36,840 --> 01:24:39,639
Speaker 1: some of the large language models, is that it will

1761
01:24:40,360 --> 01:24:43,280
Speaker 1: automate out of existence a number of at this point,

1762
01:24:43,320 --> 01:24:45,760
Speaker 1: you know, fairly well paying white collar jobs. Part of

1763
01:24:45,760 --> 01:24:47,640
Speaker 1: why I think there's been so much attention in the

1764
01:24:47,680 --> 01:24:50,000
Speaker 1: media is because it's sort of like an existential threat

1765
01:24:50,040 --> 01:24:53,680
Speaker 1: to the professional class that the media represents, which you know,

1766
01:24:53,720 --> 01:24:56,760
Speaker 1: as understand what was important story. It seems like what

1767
01:24:56,800 --> 01:25:00,599
Speaker 1: you're documenting here is it's not that job are going

1768
01:25:00,600 --> 01:25:03,559
Speaker 1: to go away. It's that instead of having these white

1769
01:25:03,560 --> 01:25:07,080
Speaker 1: collar jobs, that part might be automated out of existence. Instead,

1770
01:25:07,080 --> 01:25:10,920
Speaker 1: you're swapping these you know, relatively well paid jobs where

1771
01:25:10,920 --> 01:25:13,280
Speaker 1: you have some amount of power in your workplace, et cetera.

1772
01:25:13,520 --> 01:25:16,320
Speaker 1: And it's not just completely anonymous. You're not just completely

1773
01:25:16,360 --> 01:25:19,400
Speaker 1: like in a vacuum alone crunching these tasks for this

1774
01:25:19,479 --> 01:25:24,640
Speaker 1: sort of like global underclass that has zero power in

1775
01:25:24,720 --> 01:25:27,360
Speaker 1: terms of what they're doing day to day, zero predictability,

1776
01:25:27,520 --> 01:25:31,439
Speaker 1: zero labor rights certainly zero like union rights or ability

1777
01:25:31,439 --> 01:25:34,160
Speaker 1: to collectively organize. Is that kind of the bigger picture

1778
01:25:34,200 --> 01:25:35,240
Speaker 1: of what you're getting at here.

1779
01:25:36,000 --> 01:25:36,960
Speaker 7: I think that's the risk.

1780
01:25:37,080 --> 01:25:38,760
Speaker 10: Yeah, And then I think that's why it's important to

1781
01:25:39,120 --> 01:25:41,680
Speaker 10: be aware that this is happening behind the seams with

1782
01:25:41,720 --> 01:25:44,240
Speaker 10: these systems, because it's not it's not going to be

1783
01:25:44,280 --> 01:25:46,519
Speaker 10: a you know, a robot comes and replaces you at

1784
01:25:46,520 --> 01:25:49,479
Speaker 10: your job. I think will be something like this where

1785
01:25:50,160 --> 01:25:53,599
Speaker 10: maybe you're now part of this global digital assembly line

1786
01:25:53,640 --> 01:25:56,240
Speaker 10: and you do one piece of annotation passed off to

1787
01:25:56,320 --> 01:25:59,320
Speaker 10: some other system that goes somewhere else, some other human

1788
01:26:00,240 --> 01:26:02,479
Speaker 10: No one knows who is where, and so it's quite

1789
01:26:02,479 --> 01:26:06,800
Speaker 10: difficult to push for better conditions and you bear the

1790
01:26:06,840 --> 01:26:08,600
Speaker 10: cost of all the kind of precarity.

1791
01:26:09,200 --> 01:26:12,080
Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, when there's no work, you're not getting paid.

1792
01:26:12,520 --> 01:26:15,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, this is the gig economy on steroids. Basically,

1793
01:26:15,960 --> 01:26:18,360
Speaker 1: you don't even know who your fellow taskers are. You

1794
01:26:18,400 --> 01:26:22,040
Speaker 1: have no connection with them, no communication with them whatsoever.

1795
01:26:22,360 --> 01:26:24,559
Speaker 1: The other part that really intrigued me, Josh, as you

1796
01:26:24,600 --> 01:26:27,280
Speaker 1: were talking about part of the annotating and training for

1797
01:26:27,320 --> 01:26:30,360
Speaker 1: the chatbots is like giving them examples of what are

1798
01:26:30,479 --> 01:26:34,160
Speaker 1: good answers. That doesn't sound easy. That sounds like it'd

1799
01:26:34,160 --> 01:26:36,559
Speaker 1: be tricky to do, that sounds like and it's not

1800
01:26:36,600 --> 01:26:39,200
Speaker 1: straightforward like it seems like there would be a lot

1801
01:26:39,240 --> 01:26:42,760
Speaker 1: of subjective interpretations and judgment calls that would have to

1802
01:26:42,800 --> 01:26:44,880
Speaker 1: be made there, so talk about that and what the

1803
01:26:44,880 --> 01:26:46,040
Speaker 1: potential impacts there are.

1804
01:26:47,160 --> 01:26:49,680
Speaker 7: It's definitely really tricky because.

1805
01:26:51,240 --> 01:26:55,280
Speaker 10: You're trying to sort of give these systems examples of

1806
01:26:55,320 --> 01:26:56,800
Speaker 10: what you want them to do, but they don't always

1807
01:26:56,840 --> 01:27:00,120
Speaker 10: take the right lesson from it, I guess you could say,

1808
01:27:00,160 --> 01:27:04,479
Speaker 10: and so you need to, you know, at the simplest level,

1809
01:27:04,479 --> 01:27:06,559
Speaker 10: with something like here's an example of a question. Now

1810
01:27:06,560 --> 01:27:08,840
Speaker 10: I need to answer it accurately in sort of the

1811
01:27:08,920 --> 01:27:12,920
Speaker 10: right kind of style, uh whatever else, you know, only

1812
01:27:13,040 --> 01:27:15,799
Speaker 10: containing information that's containing the prompt or or whatever.

1813
01:27:17,400 --> 01:27:21,360
Speaker 7: And then the system learns to mimic it.

1814
01:27:21,520 --> 01:27:24,120
Speaker 10: But maybe you know, it doesn't actually learn how to

1815
01:27:24,200 --> 01:27:26,960
Speaker 10: fact check or you know, think logically. It just sort

1816
01:27:26,960 --> 01:27:30,280
Speaker 10: of learns how to sound really similar to end up

1817
01:27:30,280 --> 01:27:33,040
Speaker 10: with these systems that you know are just like extremely

1818
01:27:33,080 --> 01:27:37,280
Speaker 10: good at sounding plausible, which is super dangerous. I mean,

1819
01:27:37,520 --> 01:27:41,719
Speaker 10: it has sometimes hilarious outcomes and potentially quite quite dangerous

1820
01:27:41,720 --> 01:27:44,760
Speaker 10: outcomes that these things are just extremely good bullshitters.

1821
01:27:44,800 --> 01:27:48,000
Speaker 7: And so that's a little bit what the risk is there.

1822
01:27:48,320 --> 01:27:49,559
Speaker 7: But it's also just difficult work.

1823
01:27:49,600 --> 01:27:53,080
Speaker 10: It's like you it's sort of like it's kind of

1824
01:27:53,120 --> 01:27:55,559
Speaker 10: like taking a really tricky standardized test where it's like this.

1825
01:27:55,720 --> 01:28:00,479
Speaker 10: It's binds nature subjective because it's language and you're partiguing

1826
01:28:00,560 --> 01:28:02,720
Speaker 10: some written text on a bunch of different criteria.

1827
01:28:02,800 --> 01:28:07,720
Speaker 7: But if it doesn't line up with however your.

1828
01:28:07,840 --> 01:28:11,120
Speaker 10: Third level employer is doing quality assurance, then you can

1829
01:28:11,120 --> 01:28:13,519
Speaker 10: get banned and you don't really know why.

1830
01:28:13,760 --> 01:28:16,560
Speaker 2: Well, well, it was a really interesting interview, Josh. I

1831
01:28:16,640 --> 01:28:18,559
Speaker 2: encourage everybody to go and read the piece. We're going

1832
01:28:18,640 --> 01:28:20,760
Speaker 2: to link down in the description by the magazine too.

1833
01:28:20,800 --> 01:28:23,320
Speaker 2: I guess if all that stuff helps. And we appreciate

1834
01:28:23,320 --> 01:28:24,160
Speaker 2: your time, man, Thank you.

1835
01:28:24,160 --> 01:28:25,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks Josh, great to talk to you.

1836
01:28:25,479 --> 01:28:27,400
Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you guys so much for watching. We

1837
01:28:27,439 --> 01:28:28,040
Speaker 3: appreciate it.

1838
01:28:28,040 --> 01:28:29,840
Speaker 2: The next time you see me, it'll be an Indian

1839
01:28:29,880 --> 01:28:32,680
Speaker 2: garbine and sneakers. I guess I'll be technically married and

1840
01:28:33,600 --> 01:28:36,559
Speaker 2: not under any technical law, but I guess under higher law.

1841
01:28:36,640 --> 01:28:39,200
Speaker 3: Right, that's the one that counts. Actually, what really counts.

1842
01:28:39,000 --> 01:28:42,280
Speaker 2: As the happiness of my grandparents, so all are over

1843
01:28:42,360 --> 01:28:44,800
Speaker 2: ninety years old. They're very happy that to be able

1844
01:28:44,840 --> 01:28:47,240
Speaker 2: to have this ceremony there, and I want to thank

1845
01:28:47,280 --> 01:28:49,559
Speaker 2: my fiance and her family also for making it work.

1846
01:28:49,600 --> 01:28:53,439
Speaker 2: It's not the easiest journey, so I've got a flight

1847
01:28:53,520 --> 01:28:54,639
Speaker 2: tonight to New Delhi.

1848
01:28:54,720 --> 01:28:57,040
Speaker 3: I'm excited, I guess to be on it.

1849
01:28:57,080 --> 01:28:58,840
Speaker 2: I'm going to miss everybody here on the show, but

1850
01:28:58,880 --> 01:29:01,360
Speaker 2: Emily's going to do a great job, and I'm really

1851
01:29:01,360 --> 01:29:02,800
Speaker 2: glad that we got to do a million together.

1852
01:29:02,840 --> 01:29:03,200
Speaker 3: Crystal.

1853
01:29:03,280 --> 01:29:07,280
Speaker 1: Congratulations to you. Congratulations the whole Breaking Points community and

1854
01:29:07,320 --> 01:29:10,040
Speaker 1: family on a million subscribers. I'm actually going to be

1855
01:29:10,240 --> 01:29:12,560
Speaker 1: in for Ryan tomorrow and then so Emily and I

1856
01:29:12,640 --> 01:29:14,559
Speaker 1: are going to be doing a share tomorrow Counterpoints, and

1857
01:29:14,640 --> 01:29:16,680
Speaker 1: we'll be doing the show on Thursday as well. So

1858
01:29:16,760 --> 01:29:18,960
Speaker 1: I will see you tomorrow and Sager will see you

1859
01:29:19,000 --> 01:29:20,280
Speaker 1: whenever he decides I will.

1860
01:29:20,520 --> 01:29:23,120
Speaker 3: I'll be back. I think it's July eighth or something

1861
01:29:23,160 --> 01:29:25,320
Speaker 3: like something like that. I'll be back, don't worry about it.

1862
01:29:25,360 --> 01:29:26,639
Speaker 1: Love you guys. We'll both see soon.