WEBVTT - Vaporware: The Software Edition

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<v Speaker 1>Get in touch with technology with tech Stuff from how

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<v Speaker 1>stuff works dot com. Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer at

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<v Speaker 1>how Stuff Works in love all things tech. And in

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<v Speaker 1>the last episode, I've focused on examples of hardware that,

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<v Speaker 1>while promoted by a company, never actually made it to market,

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<v Speaker 1>at least not in the form that was promised. So

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<v Speaker 1>in this episode, I want to take a look at

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<v Speaker 1>software that did a similar thing, and so we're talking

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<v Speaker 1>about vaporware specifically in the form of software. Mostly in software,

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<v Speaker 1>there's some overlap here. So this episode is actually going

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<v Speaker 1>to go out to all the programmers out there who

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<v Speaker 1>have dedicated countless hours towards working on something that never emerged.

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<v Speaker 1>I cannot imagine how frustrating that must be, to dedicate

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<v Speaker 1>hours of your life toward a project only to see

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<v Speaker 1>that project fizzle. UM. Hopefully, those of you out there

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<v Speaker 1>who have been involved in such a thing, at least

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<v Speaker 1>I hope you got paid for it. If not, that's

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<v Speaker 1>even worse obviously, But one piece of software that is

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<v Speaker 1>not on this list anymore is, of course, the infamous

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<v Speaker 1>Duke Nukem Forever game for a decade that title topped

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<v Speaker 1>numerous vaporware lists, most famously WIREDS Hall of Fame for

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<v Speaker 1>Vaporware got inducted in two thousand three, I believe by Wired,

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<v Speaker 1>and that was because the editors got tired of including

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<v Speaker 1>the title in their annual Vaporware Awards feature. They said, listen,

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<v Speaker 1>we can't just keep putting Duke Nukem on this list,

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<v Speaker 1>so we're gonna put them in the Hall of Fame.

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<v Speaker 1>And then in two thousand five the raaders demanded that

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<v Speaker 1>they put it back on the list, so they did so.

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<v Speaker 1>George Bussard, who was a developer for three D Realms

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<v Speaker 1>UH and kind of a project leader, he first announced

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<v Speaker 1>work on Duke Nukem Forever back nineteen by n. Wired

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<v Speaker 1>was listing the game as vaporware because back then, two

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<v Speaker 1>years to make a computer game was an unusually lengthy

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<v Speaker 1>development cycle. Today it's not that unusual at all. Games

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<v Speaker 1>take millions of dollars and years to develop for your

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<v Speaker 1>your big Triple A titles, but back then it was

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<v Speaker 1>considered to be unusually, like ridiculously long. The game would

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<v Speaker 1>end up missing ship dates multiple times, largely because three

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<v Speaker 1>D Realms wanted the title to be a cutting edge

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<v Speaker 1>game that took full advantage of the latest hardware, and

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<v Speaker 1>hardware kept getting better and better while the game was

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<v Speaker 1>still in development, so they would change game engines a

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<v Speaker 1>couple of times, and that meant that a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>assets they had developed for the game had to be

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<v Speaker 1>completely scrapped and rebuilt. In other words, every time there

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<v Speaker 1>was a reason to change things, it's set everyone back

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<v Speaker 1>months or longer. The game did finally come out in

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<v Speaker 1>two thousand eleven, fifteen years after the initial announcement, and

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<v Speaker 1>by then the game was published under two K Games

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<v Speaker 1>and developed by Gearbox Software. So one thing I guess

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<v Speaker 1>I can say is that there's a possibility, maybe only

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<v Speaker 1>a slim one, that one or more pieces of software

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<v Speaker 1>I talked about in this episode could one day come

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<v Speaker 1>out after all. Just don't hold your breath now. Another

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<v Speaker 1>game that is frequently mentioned when the term vaporware comes

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<v Speaker 1>up is Star Citizen, But to be fair, Star Citizen

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<v Speaker 1>has been releasing updates to an alpha build of the

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<v Speaker 1>game regularly. Now, it's true there's no beta version of

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<v Speaker 1>this game in place yet, let alone a commercial version,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's also true that there are at least gameplay

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<v Speaker 1>elements that backers can you can play right now. If

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<v Speaker 1>you backed the project and you have access to it,

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<v Speaker 1>then you can actually play those gameplay elements. It's just

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<v Speaker 1>not a fully cohesive game yet. The story of Star

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<v Speaker 1>Citizen is such that it leaves many people purple next

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<v Speaker 1>once they start hearing details. So here's a quick overview.

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<v Speaker 1>The game's development began in two thousand eleven with Chris Roberts,

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<v Speaker 1>who founded a company called Cloud Imperium Games. Roberts had

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<v Speaker 1>previously worked on some really notable games like Freelancer and

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<v Speaker 1>Wing Commander, and his goal was to create a massively

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<v Speaker 1>multiplayer online space simulator. Players can own and operate space vehicles,

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<v Speaker 1>they can go on missions, they can engage in combat,

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<v Speaker 1>and they would have this enormous space environment to explore

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<v Speaker 1>and live in in that game. At least that's what

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<v Speaker 1>they'll be able to do once the game is finally finished.

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<v Speaker 1>In two thousand twelve, Star Citizen began to raise funds

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<v Speaker 1>both on Kickstarter and on its own site. Kickstarter's goal

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<v Speaker 1>was five thousand dollars, but their campaign raised more than

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<v Speaker 1>two million dollars. It was one of the most successful

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<v Speaker 1>campaigns at that time, and the game has raised funds

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<v Speaker 1>largely by selling in game assets to players, such as

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<v Speaker 1>special ships, including ships that cost hundreds or thousands of dollars.

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<v Speaker 1>I've listened to podcasts with hosts who have spent hundreds

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<v Speaker 1>of dollars on ships for the game. But spending that

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<v Speaker 1>much money for a virtual game that blows my mind.

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<v Speaker 1>But in two thousand eighteen, the company announced a package

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<v Speaker 1>called the Legatas Pack, and that includes one seventeen ships

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<v Speaker 1>with various add ons and skins for the game, all

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<v Speaker 1>for the low low price of twenty seven thousand real

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<v Speaker 1>world dollars. So you'd spent twenty seven thousand dollars for

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<v Speaker 1>virtual ships in a computer game. What an earlier completionist

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<v Speaker 1>pack sold for fifteen thousand dollars. In order to even

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<v Speaker 1>see the stuff that's included in the pack, you have

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<v Speaker 1>to be part of an elite group of enthusiasts who

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<v Speaker 1>have spent at least one thousand dollars one thousand real

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<v Speaker 1>world dollars on this game so far, a game that

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<v Speaker 1>only exists in alpha mode, and by that I mean

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<v Speaker 1>only parts of the game exists in alpha mode, or

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<v Speaker 1>or you could just call it the company and ask

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<v Speaker 1>about it. They'll tell you more over the phone, so

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<v Speaker 1>you don't have to spend the thousand dollars to get

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<v Speaker 1>access to that website. The game has raised more than

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<v Speaker 1>one hundred eighty six million dollars since it first started fundraising,

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<v Speaker 1>and while early goals were to have a full version

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<v Speaker 1>of the game available in two thousand fourteen, the company

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<v Speaker 1>has since backed off on announcing a date when the

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<v Speaker 1>game will be done. They got burned too many times

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<v Speaker 1>saying well, it's gonna be out at this time, and

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<v Speaker 1>then they missed that date. Some people have become pretty

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<v Speaker 1>cheesed off about this, going so far as to suggest

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<v Speaker 1>that the company has a game in perpetual development just

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<v Speaker 1>as a way to coax more money from hopeful supporters.

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<v Speaker 1>In other words, they don't ever have to deliver a

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<v Speaker 1>full game. They just have to keep people strung alow

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<v Speaker 1>to keep getting fundraising money from them. But there's no

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<v Speaker 1>denying that gameplay elements have emerged over time. There are

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<v Speaker 1>total sections of this game you can play, and other

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<v Speaker 1>games like Minecraft existed as a playable beta for years,

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<v Speaker 1>to the point where people didn't even care if the

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<v Speaker 1>game ever emerged as something more than a beta. Still,

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<v Speaker 1>this is a game that's currently an alpha, not even

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<v Speaker 1>beta testing, so there's no knowing when or if the

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<v Speaker 1>full game will be available. Now, I could do a

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<v Speaker 1>full episode about games that never came out, and maybe

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<v Speaker 1>someday I will, but for now, let's just go over

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<v Speaker 1>a few anticipated titles that have to this date not

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<v Speaker 1>made it out of development, and some of them have

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<v Speaker 1>been canceled. One of those would be Star Wars thirteen.

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<v Speaker 1>That was a game that was supposed to allow the

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<v Speaker 1>player to control the famous Boba Fette in an action

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<v Speaker 1>adventure style game. The title referred to a level inside

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<v Speaker 1>the enormous city planet of Correissant. Corressant just looks like

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<v Speaker 1>a huge planet filled with skyscrapers, and you would divide

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<v Speaker 1>the planet up not just by quadrants, but by level.

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<v Speaker 1>Was supposed to be a level filled with seedy underworld characters.

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<v Speaker 1>Early video footage was shown off at industry events and

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<v Speaker 1>looked really impressive. But then the Mouse House purchased Lucasfilm

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<v Speaker 1>and along with it Lucas Arts, the the game studio

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<v Speaker 1>that was developing this game. Disney made the determination to

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<v Speaker 1>stop all internal development for games at Lucas Arts, and

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<v Speaker 1>all the developers got laid off. Lucas Arts exists now

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<v Speaker 1>only as an entity to issue licenses to other game developers,

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<v Speaker 1>and so thirt thirteen was shelved. Disney chose not to

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<v Speaker 1>renew the trademark license in I plan on doing a

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<v Speaker 1>whole episode or two about Blizzard soon, but one thing

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<v Speaker 1>I will not be talking about is how their game,

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<v Speaker 1>StarCraft Ghost did once it went on sale, because it

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<v Speaker 1>never did that. It never got out of development. The

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<v Speaker 1>idea was to it a stealth based game set in

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<v Speaker 1>the popular StarCraft universe, and StarCraft is a real time

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<v Speaker 1>strategy game, but Ghost would be a different type of gameplay,

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<v Speaker 1>completely meant for consoles rather than PCs, and it was

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<v Speaker 1>supposed to come out in two thousand six, but it

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't until two thousand fourteen the Blizzard officially said, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>this one's not coming out. Also, in a mysterious and

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<v Speaker 1>creepy demo for PlayStation four came out, and the demo

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<v Speaker 1>was for what was called pt PT stood for Playable Teaser,

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<v Speaker 1>And in this teaser, you would walk down the hallway

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<v Speaker 1>and you would encounter creepy and disturbing imagery and then

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<v Speaker 1>you would discover yourself at the beginning of the hallway

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<v Speaker 1>over and over again, and the creepy stuff would grow

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<v Speaker 1>even more disturbing, and it would change each time you

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<v Speaker 1>went down the hallway. At the conclusion of the trailer,

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<v Speaker 1>and was a video teaser for Silent Hills, obviously a

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<v Speaker 1>game in the Silent Hill horror series. Hideo Kajima, famed

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<v Speaker 1>video game designer, and Guillermo del Toro, the famous filmmaker.

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<v Speaker 1>We're working on the project with actor Norman Das, who

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<v Speaker 1>is providing voice and performance acting for the game. But

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<v Speaker 1>the game eventually got canceled. Cojima would leave the company,

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<v Speaker 1>or he was fired or something that's never been totally clear,

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<v Speaker 1>and then Cojima went on to develop the as yet

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<v Speaker 1>unreleased game Death Stranding, also starring Ritas. So what is

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<v Speaker 1>Death Stranding about? Beats me. I watched about ten minutes

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<v Speaker 1>of footage from and I still have no idea what

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<v Speaker 1>that game is all about. Other games that fall into

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<v Speaker 1>this category include Titan, which was another Blizzard title that

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<v Speaker 1>never made it all development. There were a trilogy of

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<v Speaker 1>games that were called Insane that was also supposed to

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<v Speaker 1>have Guillermo del Toro's involvement. Those never came out. Also

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<v Speaker 1>a game called Agent, which is an espionage game that

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<v Speaker 1>was supposed to come out from rock Star Games. It

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<v Speaker 1>was announced way back in two thousand nine, but as

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<v Speaker 1>of yet has not come out, But there have been

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<v Speaker 1>reports from as recently as ten that's some variation of

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<v Speaker 1>that game Miss still in development. So maybe we will

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<v Speaker 1>one day see Agent see the light of day. Next,

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<v Speaker 1>we're gonna turn our focus from video games to other

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<v Speaker 1>types of software. But first let's take a quick break

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<v Speaker 1>to thank our sponsor. Now, in the world of software,

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<v Speaker 1>there's an old example of vaporware that still gets reference today.

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<v Speaker 1>The example dates all the way back to nine three,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's when a company called Ovation Technologies announced a

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<v Speaker 1>suite of productivity software that it said would leave all

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<v Speaker 1>competitors in the dust. The company claimed it's Ovation Suite

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<v Speaker 1>included features like spreadsheets, word processing, data management, communication tools,

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<v Speaker 1>all of them integrated together. So it's going to be

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<v Speaker 1>a powerful tool for businesses, far exceeding the capabilities of

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<v Speaker 1>competing software that was just starting to get a foothold

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<v Speaker 1>in the market at that time. Ovation produced a demo

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<v Speaker 1>of its product Sucked, in order to show off what

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<v Speaker 1>it could do at various trade shows. The demo was

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<v Speaker 1>a video, and here's the thing. The video was filled

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<v Speaker 1>with false claims because there was no actual product to

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<v Speaker 1>show off. The video was just completely manufactured. It wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>supposedly showing off a concept, it was supposed to be

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<v Speaker 1>showing off a working build of the software. The truth

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<v Speaker 1>was the company had nothing to show yet. The demo

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<v Speaker 1>was created in an effort to convince potential investors to

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<v Speaker 1>pour money into the company. Presumably that money would then

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<v Speaker 1>be used to actually make the software that the company

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<v Speaker 1>was claimed to have built. But Ovation wasn't able to

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<v Speaker 1>stay above the waves of bankruptcy, and eventually they ran

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<v Speaker 1>out of money before they could ever produce anything real,

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<v Speaker 1>so it instead became an infamous example of vaporware and

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<v Speaker 1>smoke and mirrors. Some people going so far as to

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<v Speaker 1>say it was essentially a hoax or scam. Others are

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<v Speaker 1>a little more charitable, and they said, well, they didn't

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<v Speaker 1>intend for it to be a scam. They were just

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<v Speaker 1>trying to raise the money to build the thing they

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to build. And instead of saying it like that,

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<v Speaker 1>they said, hey, we have this thing, we've built it already,

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<v Speaker 1>invest in us and you'll make your money back. And

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<v Speaker 1>that was dishonest. When I did episodes about the Macintosh,

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<v Speaker 1>I talked about how Apple as a company was struggling

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<v Speaker 1>in the nineteen nineties before Steve Jobs returned to Apple.

0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:26.480
<v Speaker 1>You know, he co founded the company, but he was

0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:31.480
<v Speaker 1>then pushed aside and uh, John Scully essentially took over

0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:35.720
<v Speaker 1>and Jobs found himself leaving the company or being fired

0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:39.360
<v Speaker 1>from the company. It all depends upon whose account you believe.

0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:42.840
<v Speaker 1>And then he went to start a new company called Next. Meanwhile,

0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:45.720
<v Speaker 1>back at Apple, developers were hard at work trying to

0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:50.200
<v Speaker 1>create the next generation of the Mac operating system. The

0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:54.840
<v Speaker 1>preceding generation was called System seven and that launched back

0:13:54.840 --> 0:13:58.720
<v Speaker 1>in n It worked well, but it's still depended upon

0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:02.800
<v Speaker 1>old architecture that by design limited what users could do.

0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:05.800
<v Speaker 1>And the reason for these limitations was in order to

0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:09.720
<v Speaker 1>streamline processes. So, in other words, the stuff the operating

0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:12.360
<v Speaker 1>system could do, it could do really really well. But

0:14:12.520 --> 0:14:14.920
<v Speaker 1>largely it could do that stuff really well because the

0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:18.400
<v Speaker 1>developers were ignoring all the stuff the operating system could

0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:22.240
<v Speaker 1>not do. And one of those things was true multitasking.

0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:26.840
<v Speaker 1>You could kind of sort of multitask with System seven

0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:30.400
<v Speaker 1>mac os, but it was doing it in a way

0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:37.120
<v Speaker 1>that wasn't terribly efficient and wasn't true multitasking. Also, an

0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:39.840
<v Speaker 1>error could cause the system to crash, and if you

0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:42.720
<v Speaker 1>were running multiple programs at once, a bug in any

0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:45.640
<v Speaker 1>of those programs could cause the entire computer to crash

0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:50.360
<v Speaker 1>as a result. So instead of compartmentalizing each of these

0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:54.040
<v Speaker 1>instances so that if there's a problem, only that one

0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:57.720
<v Speaker 1>program crashes, it would affect the entire system. And so

0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:00.040
<v Speaker 1>the more programs you were running, the more likely you

0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:02.040
<v Speaker 1>would run into that and have to do a full

0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:04.680
<v Speaker 1>system reboot and lose all your work. So it was

0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:08.560
<v Speaker 1>not a great scene. Now. A proposed successor to System

0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:12.360
<v Speaker 1>seven was a project code named Copeland. It took a

0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:15.440
<v Speaker 1>very different approach to architecture to allow for better control

0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:18.440
<v Speaker 1>over multiple programs, among other things. So why was it

0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:21.440
<v Speaker 1>called Copeland, Well, it was named after the composer. The

0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:24.840
<v Speaker 1>code name for System seven point five had been Mozart.

0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:27.800
<v Speaker 1>There was a third planned iteration that was code named

0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:30.840
<v Speaker 1>Gershwin and Copeland stuck right in the between them. There

0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:34.200
<v Speaker 1>was supposed to be transitional to move the operating system

0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:37.120
<v Speaker 1>away from the old architecture of System seven and set

0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:39.480
<v Speaker 1>the ground for a new architecture that would support future

0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:43.840
<v Speaker 1>generations of OS builds. Apple announced that Copeland was in

0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:50.280
<v Speaker 1>development back in by Gil Emilio, who had recently become

0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:53.760
<v Speaker 1>the CEO of Apple, talked a lot about the various

0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:56.840
<v Speaker 1>features that Copeland would have. At that point, they had

0:15:56.920 --> 0:16:00.360
<v Speaker 1>renamed it. They were calling it System eight, representing an

0:16:00.480 --> 0:16:05.160
<v Speaker 1>entirely new generation of operating systems. Demonstrations of the operating

0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:09.920
<v Speaker 1>system did not go well, uh, they they people could

0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:13.520
<v Speaker 1>see promises of what the operating system might be able

0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:15.720
<v Speaker 1>to do, but you couldn't even do things like inter

0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:19.040
<v Speaker 1>in text in the early demos of System mate, and

0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:25.280
<v Speaker 1>that represented a big problem. Obviously, demonstrations uh did not

0:16:25.440 --> 0:16:29.000
<v Speaker 1>help the case. The development team was fractured, different groups

0:16:29.040 --> 0:16:32.720
<v Speaker 1>working on specific features, but seemingly no guiding hand to

0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:36.280
<v Speaker 1>bring all of those features together into a cohesive operating system.

0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:39.800
<v Speaker 1>So you had people working very uh intensely on just

0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:44.560
<v Speaker 1>a very narrow group of features with no thought of

0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:46.880
<v Speaker 1>how it was going to integrate with the overall system.

0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:49.600
<v Speaker 1>And there's a lot of feature creep coming into more

0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:52.520
<v Speaker 1>and more features that were being added to this operating system,

0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:57.400
<v Speaker 1>growing the project, making it harder to complete and in August,

0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:00.800
<v Speaker 1>Apple finally pulled the plug. By the end of nine,

0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:04.119
<v Speaker 1>Apple would announce that Steve Jobs would be joining the

0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:08.800
<v Speaker 1>company in an advisory capacity because Apple was requiring Next

0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:11.960
<v Speaker 1>Steve Jobs as new company in an effort to get

0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:15.560
<v Speaker 1>their operating system development moving again. Essentially, they were saying, well,

0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:18.719
<v Speaker 1>we couldn't develop the operating system in house, Let's go

0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:22.560
<v Speaker 1>buy Steve's company Next and bring those assets over and

0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:26.120
<v Speaker 1>make that into the new Mac operating system. Jobs would

0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:28.639
<v Speaker 1>eventually convince the board of directors to give the boot

0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:32.000
<v Speaker 1>to Gil Emilio and Jobs would take over, first as

0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:35.600
<v Speaker 1>interim CEO and later as the official CEO of Apple.

0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:40.679
<v Speaker 1>Back in music companies were in a tizzy because digital

0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:43.879
<v Speaker 1>music formats that made it incredibly easy to share music

0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:46.840
<v Speaker 1>on a global scale, peer to peer sharing networks and

0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:50.400
<v Speaker 1>pirate sites were undermining the business model the music industry

0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:53.320
<v Speaker 1>have been reliant upon for decades, and if you want

0:17:53.320 --> 0:17:57.080
<v Speaker 1>to talk about disruptive technologies, the development of digital music

0:17:57.200 --> 0:18:00.399
<v Speaker 1>file formats would be way up there. And so a

0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:03.680
<v Speaker 1>group of companies, not just in the music industry, got

0:18:03.720 --> 0:18:07.280
<v Speaker 1>together to try and create a solution to this perceived problem,

0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:09.960
<v Speaker 1>and the idea was to create technology that would allow

0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:13.520
<v Speaker 1>music companies to sell digital forms of music and rest

0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:16.120
<v Speaker 1>assured that only the people who coughed up the dough

0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:19.159
<v Speaker 1>could listen to the stuff at tech that would foil

0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:21.840
<v Speaker 1>the attempts of dirty, nasty pirates out there who would

0:18:21.840 --> 0:18:25.639
<v Speaker 1>steal money right from their pockets. Sort of, all right,

0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:28.119
<v Speaker 1>let's put aside for the moment the fact that you

0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:31.160
<v Speaker 1>cannot prove someone who pirates the piece of media would

0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:34.800
<v Speaker 1>otherwise have paid for that media, because that would negate

0:18:34.840 --> 0:18:38.560
<v Speaker 1>your argument that they're stealing money from you. Right now,

0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:42.280
<v Speaker 1>you might think this sounds a lot like the group

0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:45.560
<v Speaker 1>which was called the Secure Digital Music Initiative or s

0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:47.959
<v Speaker 1>d m I, that they were trying to come up

0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:50.520
<v Speaker 1>with a DRM strategy, and you would be right. Digital

0:18:50.600 --> 0:18:53.800
<v Speaker 1>rights management was exactly what they were looking at. That

0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:55.520
<v Speaker 1>was what they were trying to do. They wanted to

0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:58.719
<v Speaker 1>create a means to imprint a digital water mark on

0:18:58.760 --> 0:19:02.000
<v Speaker 1>a file, so piece of code that could be attached

0:19:02.080 --> 0:19:04.679
<v Speaker 1>to a music file to prove that it came from

0:19:04.720 --> 0:19:08.560
<v Speaker 1>a legitimate source. The watermark would be designed in such

0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:10.320
<v Speaker 1>a way so that it would be really hard to

0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:13.919
<v Speaker 1>remove without it also causing some sort of damage to

0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:18.000
<v Speaker 1>the music file like decreasing the quality of the audio itself.

0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:21.040
<v Speaker 1>So if you tried to remove it, then the sound

0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:22.920
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't be as good on your music file, and you

0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:25.520
<v Speaker 1>would ruin the thing you were trying to You're trying

0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:28.840
<v Speaker 1>to uh crack. And there was a second arm to

0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:31.639
<v Speaker 1>the strategy. They were going to partner with manufacturers to

0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:35.280
<v Speaker 1>produce devices that could play back s d m I files,

0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:37.679
<v Speaker 1>but only if there was proof that the user was

0:19:37.760 --> 0:19:41.480
<v Speaker 1>authorized to play those files. So let's say it's a computer.

0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:43.760
<v Speaker 1>The computer would have to have a proof that the

0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:46.880
<v Speaker 1>owner had a license to play that music, and then

0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:49.200
<v Speaker 1>it would say, all right, well the license matches up

0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:53.320
<v Speaker 1>with the sdm I water mark. Everything's good. The watermark

0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:56.040
<v Speaker 1>is a is a real water mark. It's clearly from

0:19:56.080 --> 0:19:59.520
<v Speaker 1>the company, so we will allow this file to play.

0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:03.240
<v Speaker 1>On Nimber six, two thousand, the group issued an open

0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:06.360
<v Speaker 1>challenge to anyone to try and remove the digital watermark

0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:10.960
<v Speaker 1>from some examples of music files without ruining those music files,

0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:13.640
<v Speaker 1>and to do so within three weeks. A group led

0:20:13.680 --> 0:20:17.119
<v Speaker 1>by Princeton computer science professor Ed Felton claimed to do

0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:20.760
<v Speaker 1>just that, though s d m I initially protested, saying

0:20:21.160 --> 0:20:24.879
<v Speaker 1>that the judging software, which by the way they themselves

0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:29.000
<v Speaker 1>had provided, could not take into account the sound quality

0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:32.320
<v Speaker 1>of the music file. Felton planned to give a talk

0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:36.159
<v Speaker 1>about his group's methodology, and s d m I, along

0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:39.440
<v Speaker 1>with some other parties, threatened to sue Felton and his group.

0:20:39.880 --> 0:20:42.480
<v Speaker 1>They said, this is going to be a violation of

0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:45.280
<v Speaker 1>the Digital Millennium Copyright Act the d m c A.

0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:49.800
<v Speaker 1>But the Department of Justice was disinclined to acquiesce to

0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:52.280
<v Speaker 1>the demands of s d m I in pirate speak,

0:20:52.880 --> 0:20:54.879
<v Speaker 1>so in other words, they said, go ahead, dog, publish

0:20:54.880 --> 0:20:57.359
<v Speaker 1>your work. Felton, you got it, We got your back.

0:20:57.960 --> 0:21:01.280
<v Speaker 1>S d m I effectively ended in two thousand one,

0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:05.280
<v Speaker 1>although according to the then director, it was not because

0:21:05.320 --> 0:21:08.840
<v Speaker 1>the water marks could be removed. Rather, he said the

0:21:08.880 --> 0:21:13.520
<v Speaker 1>technology was not capable of being unnoticeable by golden ears,

0:21:14.200 --> 0:21:16.760
<v Speaker 1>meaning that he was saying that the process of putting

0:21:16.760 --> 0:21:20.440
<v Speaker 1>the digital water mark on the music files was by

0:21:20.440 --> 0:21:24.480
<v Speaker 1>itself affecting the sound quality slightly, and if you were

0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:28.040
<v Speaker 1>really really good at listening, you'd be able to detect it.

0:21:28.080 --> 0:21:30.800
<v Speaker 1>And that's why it never worked. It wasn't that someone

0:21:30.840 --> 0:21:33.119
<v Speaker 1>had cracked the system and they were able to remove

0:21:33.160 --> 0:21:35.280
<v Speaker 1>the water mark. It was just that it never worked

0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:38.280
<v Speaker 1>in the first place. UM. I don't know if those

0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:41.000
<v Speaker 1>are sour grapes or not, but anyway you could say

0:21:41.000 --> 0:21:46.159
<v Speaker 1>the whole stm I file uh form was was vaporware.

0:21:46.640 --> 0:21:48.720
<v Speaker 1>I have more to say about vaporware in the next section,

0:21:48.760 --> 0:21:52.640
<v Speaker 1>but first let's take another quick break to thank our sponsor.

0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:03.560
<v Speaker 1>All right, this next example is part software, part hardware.

0:22:04.000 --> 0:22:07.560
<v Speaker 1>Back in two thousand twelve, Justin Timberlake took a break

0:22:07.640 --> 0:22:10.919
<v Speaker 1>from bringing Sexy Back to take the stage at CES

0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:14.280
<v Speaker 1>in Las Vegas. He was there to announce a partnership

0:22:14.440 --> 0:22:18.359
<v Speaker 1>with Panasonic to bring a service called my Space TV

0:22:18.960 --> 0:22:23.439
<v Speaker 1>to the new Vierra HDTV television sets. The idea being

0:22:23.480 --> 0:22:25.840
<v Speaker 1>that would be an over the top service, So you

0:22:25.880 --> 0:22:28.960
<v Speaker 1>would plug your Vierra TV in, you would have it

0:22:29.400 --> 0:22:32.120
<v Speaker 1>connected to your network, and then you could tap into

0:22:32.200 --> 0:22:35.200
<v Speaker 1>this my Space TV service and the service would start

0:22:35.240 --> 0:22:38.080
<v Speaker 1>off with the library of music videos that my Space

0:22:38.160 --> 0:22:40.760
<v Speaker 1>already had at its disposal, which was around a hundred

0:22:40.840 --> 0:22:45.320
<v Speaker 1>thousand or so, and also my spaces library of songs,

0:22:45.400 --> 0:22:48.440
<v Speaker 1>which was around forty two million songs, and then it

0:22:48.560 --> 0:22:52.720
<v Speaker 1>was supposed to grow to quote encompass movies, news, sports,

0:22:52.920 --> 0:22:56.040
<v Speaker 1>and reality channels with a growing lineup of today's most

0:22:56.080 --> 0:23:00.240
<v Speaker 1>popular broadcast and on demand content. End quote a wording

0:23:00.280 --> 0:23:03.800
<v Speaker 1>to a press release issued by the two companies. Timberlake

0:23:03.880 --> 0:23:07.000
<v Speaker 1>himself talked about the social aspect of the service, which

0:23:07.040 --> 0:23:09.800
<v Speaker 1>would let people share what they were watching in real time,

0:23:10.160 --> 0:23:13.359
<v Speaker 1>so you could create a sort of online viewing party experience,

0:23:13.920 --> 0:23:19.000
<v Speaker 1>but the service as talked about never materialized. Just a

0:23:19.080 --> 0:23:22.000
<v Speaker 1>note here, my Space did create a service called my

0:23:22.160 --> 0:23:25.160
<v Speaker 1>Space TV, but that was way back in two thousand seven,

0:23:25.400 --> 0:23:29.160
<v Speaker 1>five years before this c e S presentation, and back

0:23:29.200 --> 0:23:32.320
<v Speaker 1>then that was a video site meant to compete with YouTube,

0:23:32.680 --> 0:23:35.200
<v Speaker 1>so it was meant to allow my Space users to

0:23:35.400 --> 0:23:39.119
<v Speaker 1>upload user generated content to the video site, So that

0:23:39.280 --> 0:23:42.160
<v Speaker 1>was different from what Panasonic and MySpace we're talking about

0:23:42.240 --> 0:23:45.760
<v Speaker 1>in two thousand twelve. Also, my Space had been declining

0:23:45.800 --> 0:23:49.639
<v Speaker 1>in popularity steadily since two thousand eight, so this was

0:23:49.720 --> 0:23:52.200
<v Speaker 1>kind of a big surprise to see my Space teaming

0:23:52.280 --> 0:23:54.720
<v Speaker 1>up with Panasonic in the first place, because my Space

0:23:54.800 --> 0:23:58.399
<v Speaker 1>had lost a lot of street cred by then. News Corps,

0:23:58.640 --> 0:24:00.960
<v Speaker 1>which had bought my Space in two thousand five for

0:24:01.119 --> 0:24:05.000
<v Speaker 1>five eighty million dollars had sold the company in two

0:24:05.040 --> 0:24:08.639
<v Speaker 1>thousand eleven for much less, perhaps as low as thirty

0:24:08.680 --> 0:24:13.400
<v Speaker 1>five million dollars. That's an enormous loss, and Rupert Murdoch,

0:24:13.680 --> 0:24:15.800
<v Speaker 1>the owner of news Corps, would call the purchase of

0:24:15.880 --> 0:24:18.560
<v Speaker 1>MySpace one of the biggest mistakes news Corps ever made.

0:24:18.960 --> 0:24:23.240
<v Speaker 1>A company called specific Media became the new owner of MySpace,

0:24:23.600 --> 0:24:27.560
<v Speaker 1>and then eventually they were also a company that would

0:24:27.600 --> 0:24:31.800
<v Speaker 1>belonged to a larger company called Volant Technologies. Time Incorporated

0:24:31.880 --> 0:24:34.879
<v Speaker 1>bought Volant in two thousand and sixteen, so Volant was

0:24:34.960 --> 0:24:37.560
<v Speaker 1>the parent company not only of MySpace and specific Media,

0:24:37.720 --> 0:24:41.719
<v Speaker 1>but also of other companies like Vindico and Schumo. Now

0:24:41.760 --> 0:24:44.840
<v Speaker 1>I've talked a lot about different examples of vaporware in

0:24:44.960 --> 0:24:46.960
<v Speaker 1>these two episodes, so I thought it would be useful

0:24:47.280 --> 0:24:50.159
<v Speaker 1>to kind of talk about why vaporware exists in the

0:24:50.240 --> 0:24:54.200
<v Speaker 1>first place, or or why it it doesn't exist, you

0:24:54.280 --> 0:24:57.080
<v Speaker 1>know what I mean. Why do companies announced products that

0:24:57.160 --> 0:25:01.280
<v Speaker 1>are not yet ready for market and may never full development. Well,

0:25:01.320 --> 0:25:05.200
<v Speaker 1>there are several potential reasons. First, there's the possibility that

0:25:05.280 --> 0:25:08.600
<v Speaker 1>the company has every intent to actually release the product

0:25:09.040 --> 0:25:13.520
<v Speaker 1>as they are promoting it, but internal or external problems

0:25:13.640 --> 0:25:16.960
<v Speaker 1>right at the end are derailing the project and pushing

0:25:17.040 --> 0:25:19.520
<v Speaker 1>back the release date. That happens a lot, both in

0:25:19.640 --> 0:25:23.479
<v Speaker 1>software and in hardware. So you scope about your project right.

0:25:23.560 --> 0:25:26.840
<v Speaker 1>You define what you want to deliver, You define the

0:25:26.880 --> 0:25:29.560
<v Speaker 1>process you're going to take in order to make the

0:25:29.640 --> 0:25:32.639
<v Speaker 1>product that you've designed. You identify what you think are

0:25:32.680 --> 0:25:35.679
<v Speaker 1>going to be the challenging sticking points. You create strategies

0:25:35.720 --> 0:25:38.960
<v Speaker 1>to overcome those challenges, and you move forward. And then

0:25:39.080 --> 0:25:41.920
<v Speaker 1>something you did not anticipate happens, because it always does.

0:25:42.280 --> 0:25:44.960
<v Speaker 1>That's that's how the real world works, and that throws

0:25:45.040 --> 0:25:47.720
<v Speaker 1>you off. So then you adjust and you try to

0:25:47.840 --> 0:25:50.480
<v Speaker 1>move forward as best you can, trying to keep your

0:25:50.600 --> 0:25:53.879
<v Speaker 1>vision intact. But then you find out that whatever the

0:25:53.960 --> 0:25:57.359
<v Speaker 1>solution was to that unexpected problem that popped up, that

0:25:57.520 --> 0:26:00.199
<v Speaker 1>solution has now broken something else, like one of your

0:26:00.240 --> 0:26:03.640
<v Speaker 1>features now no longer works. Or maybe your lead developer

0:26:03.720 --> 0:26:06.560
<v Speaker 1>gets hired away by a competitor, or maybe your company

0:26:06.640 --> 0:26:09.000
<v Speaker 1>is acquired by another company, or maybe your money is

0:26:09.119 --> 0:26:12.080
<v Speaker 1>just running out. There are plenty of cases where vaporware

0:26:12.440 --> 0:26:16.919
<v Speaker 1>is an unfortunate byproduct of unpredictable challenges during a project cycle.

0:26:17.200 --> 0:26:20.880
<v Speaker 1>Has nothing to do with any nefarious plans. But then

0:26:21.640 --> 0:26:26.040
<v Speaker 1>there are more underhanded, shady practices. There's the possibility of

0:26:26.080 --> 0:26:29.160
<v Speaker 1>an outright cash grab. This is your old snake oil

0:26:29.280 --> 0:26:33.520
<v Speaker 1>salesman methodology, where you promise someone the moon and stars

0:26:33.960 --> 0:26:36.840
<v Speaker 1>and you have no intention to deliver upon this promise.

0:26:37.359 --> 0:26:40.080
<v Speaker 1>But those scams are pretty difficult to pull off well

0:26:40.240 --> 0:26:43.280
<v Speaker 1>without serious consequences Further down the road, like how do

0:26:43.359 --> 0:26:46.360
<v Speaker 1>you raise a huge amount of money trying to sell

0:26:46.520 --> 0:26:50.119
<v Speaker 1>a complete scam and then still expect to get away

0:26:51.000 --> 0:26:54.400
<v Speaker 1>Because eventually people get mad if they find out they've

0:26:54.440 --> 0:26:58.800
<v Speaker 1>been hoodwinked, and governments exist in part to protect people

0:26:58.880 --> 0:27:01.919
<v Speaker 1>from such things. So it's not the kind of grift

0:27:02.320 --> 0:27:05.199
<v Speaker 1>that you want to run for very long because you're

0:27:05.240 --> 0:27:08.119
<v Speaker 1>gonna get come uppants. So you're likely gonna get dinged

0:27:08.160 --> 0:27:11.080
<v Speaker 1>by a lawsuit or three, and that's really gonna put

0:27:11.119 --> 0:27:14.080
<v Speaker 1>a crimp on your day. But another tactic is to

0:27:14.160 --> 0:27:18.200
<v Speaker 1>announce a product that's well ahead of schedule. Maybe the

0:27:18.280 --> 0:27:20.840
<v Speaker 1>general public doesn't know it's well ahead of schedule, but

0:27:21.000 --> 0:27:23.880
<v Speaker 1>you might suspect that's going to be a few years

0:27:24.000 --> 0:27:26.560
<v Speaker 1>before this product is rated to market, But you announce

0:27:26.640 --> 0:27:28.960
<v Speaker 1>it in order to take the wind of the sales

0:27:29.080 --> 0:27:32.479
<v Speaker 1>of a competitor. There's an example of this, or at

0:27:32.560 --> 0:27:35.520
<v Speaker 1>least an example of a company that's been accused of

0:27:35.600 --> 0:27:39.280
<v Speaker 1>doing this. Way back in nineteen sixty four, IBM announced

0:27:39.280 --> 0:27:42.879
<v Speaker 1>it would introduce a series of mainframe computers under the

0:27:43.480 --> 0:27:47.640
<v Speaker 1>name System three sixty, but those computers wouldn't actually become

0:27:47.680 --> 0:27:52.160
<v Speaker 1>available for purchase for a few years, so IBM announced

0:27:52.200 --> 0:27:56.040
<v Speaker 1>it prematurely. However, the announcement prompted a lot of would

0:27:56.080 --> 0:27:59.960
<v Speaker 1>be customers to wait on this promised System of three

0:28:00.080 --> 0:28:03.359
<v Speaker 1>sixty machine to come out rather than purchase a system

0:28:03.440 --> 0:28:07.240
<v Speaker 1>from one of IBM's competitors, like the Controlled Data Corporation

0:28:07.400 --> 0:28:10.360
<v Speaker 1>or c d C. C d C brought an antitrust

0:28:10.520 --> 0:28:15.400
<v Speaker 1>lawsuit against IBM in nineteen sixty eight. The United States

0:28:15.440 --> 0:28:19.560
<v Speaker 1>eventually took up this antitrust lawsuit against the company, and

0:28:19.880 --> 0:28:23.200
<v Speaker 1>this particular part of the lawsuits said that IBM knew

0:28:23.240 --> 0:28:27.160
<v Speaker 1>its systems were years from market, but that they decided

0:28:27.520 --> 0:28:31.440
<v Speaker 1>to advertise these upcoming machines as being comparable to c

0:28:31.600 --> 0:28:34.480
<v Speaker 1>d c s existing products on the market at that

0:28:34.640 --> 0:28:38.479
<v Speaker 1>moment in an effort to undercut their competitor. So they

0:28:38.480 --> 0:28:42.640
<v Speaker 1>said this is anti competitive. It is against the principles

0:28:43.120 --> 0:28:46.400
<v Speaker 1>of a free market. The anti trust lawsuit, which grew

0:28:46.760 --> 0:28:50.080
<v Speaker 1>substantially with a lot of other parties becoming involved, would

0:28:50.160 --> 0:28:54.440
<v Speaker 1>stretch on until nine two until the Justice Department finally

0:28:54.520 --> 0:28:57.880
<v Speaker 1>dismissed the case. So that was a pretty expensive strategy

0:28:58.120 --> 0:29:02.080
<v Speaker 1>marketing strategy. Employing lawyers in an active lawsuit that lasts

0:29:02.200 --> 0:29:05.800
<v Speaker 1>longer than a decade gets pretty pricey. And sometimes a

0:29:05.880 --> 0:29:08.120
<v Speaker 1>company will announce a product that hasn't even gone into

0:29:08.120 --> 0:29:11.720
<v Speaker 1>production just as a way to gauge demand. Now, you

0:29:11.760 --> 0:29:14.080
<v Speaker 1>could argue that a lot of the projects on platforms

0:29:14.120 --> 0:29:17.200
<v Speaker 1>like Kickstarter and indie go go fall into this category.

0:29:17.760 --> 0:29:21.600
<v Speaker 1>The people running those campaigns are usually selling the idea

0:29:21.840 --> 0:29:26.240
<v Speaker 1>of a thing. Very often they don't have a working prototype.

0:29:26.520 --> 0:29:29.960
<v Speaker 1>Sometimes they do, which is fantastic, but often they just

0:29:30.080 --> 0:29:32.160
<v Speaker 1>say I have this great idea, but in order for

0:29:32.240 --> 0:29:34.840
<v Speaker 1>me to make this thing, I'm gonna need money. So

0:29:34.920 --> 0:29:38.000
<v Speaker 1>they're looking to get investment into an idea to presumably

0:29:38.120 --> 0:29:41.680
<v Speaker 1>bring that idea to fruition. Or you could point at

0:29:41.680 --> 0:29:44.400
<v Speaker 1>about half the stuff that think Geek has thrown up

0:29:44.480 --> 0:29:47.200
<v Speaker 1>on its April Fools page every year. If you've ever

0:29:47.360 --> 0:29:49.960
<v Speaker 1>visited the Think Geek site on April fools Day, and

0:29:50.040 --> 0:29:52.200
<v Speaker 1>you're likely to see at least one or two products that,

0:29:52.800 --> 0:29:55.440
<v Speaker 1>while they are fake, seem like they'd be pretty awesome

0:29:55.600 --> 0:29:57.840
<v Speaker 1>to have in real life. And Think Geek has actually

0:29:57.920 --> 0:30:02.000
<v Speaker 1>made some of those fake product real products as a result,

0:30:02.520 --> 0:30:04.160
<v Speaker 1>and a lot of people have said Think Geek is

0:30:04.240 --> 0:30:08.400
<v Speaker 1>actually using the jokes page to kind of measure the

0:30:09.160 --> 0:30:12.920
<v Speaker 1>response of Think Geek customers, and if the response is

0:30:12.960 --> 0:30:15.000
<v Speaker 1>really positive, they'll go ahead and bring it to market.

0:30:15.440 --> 0:30:18.680
<v Speaker 1>Otherwise they'll just say, well, we're not gonna We're not

0:30:18.720 --> 0:30:21.520
<v Speaker 1>gonna make back the expense of making this thing, so

0:30:21.600 --> 0:30:24.320
<v Speaker 1>we won't bother with that. Uh So you could argue

0:30:24.320 --> 0:30:27.480
<v Speaker 1>that those items were in reality vaporware in an effort

0:30:27.520 --> 0:30:29.800
<v Speaker 1>to judge how much people might actually want one of

0:30:29.880 --> 0:30:32.480
<v Speaker 1>those things, but still clear that many of the items

0:30:32.560 --> 0:30:36.000
<v Speaker 1>and thinkings April Fool's pages are just jokes. They were

0:30:36.080 --> 0:30:39.400
<v Speaker 1>never intended to become actual products, so it's not like

0:30:39.560 --> 0:30:42.000
<v Speaker 1>every single one of them falls in that category. I

0:30:42.080 --> 0:30:44.240
<v Speaker 1>plan on doing follow up episodes in this vein to

0:30:44.320 --> 0:30:47.200
<v Speaker 1>talk more about some of the games that never emerged,

0:30:47.320 --> 0:30:49.760
<v Speaker 1>So I might might do another episode about the greatest

0:30:49.880 --> 0:30:53.400
<v Speaker 1>video games that never existed, I've done one of those before,

0:30:53.960 --> 0:30:57.040
<v Speaker 1>but it was years and years ago, so maybe I

0:30:57.120 --> 0:30:59.920
<v Speaker 1>can do an update sometime in the future. Not net

0:31:00.480 --> 0:31:02.800
<v Speaker 1>the next one. I think I may dedicate an episode

0:31:02.840 --> 0:31:09.040
<v Speaker 1>specifically to crowdfunded projects that either were incredible successes, terrible failures,

0:31:09.560 --> 0:31:15.200
<v Speaker 1>or they successfully funded but the item never emerged. Whatever

0:31:15.320 --> 0:31:18.560
<v Speaker 1>the goal of the project was, never came to fruition.

0:31:19.000 --> 0:31:22.000
<v Speaker 1>I think that it's valuable to look into that as well.

0:31:22.080 --> 0:31:24.200
<v Speaker 1>So that's probably gonna be my next episode. But if

0:31:24.200 --> 0:31:28.720
<v Speaker 1>you guys have suggestions for future episodes, whether it's a technology,

0:31:28.920 --> 0:31:31.040
<v Speaker 1>a company, a person in tech, whatever it may be,

0:31:31.440 --> 0:31:33.440
<v Speaker 1>send me an email. The address for the show is

0:31:33.520 --> 0:31:36.960
<v Speaker 1>tech Stuff at how stuff works dot com, or drop

0:31:37.080 --> 0:31:38.960
<v Speaker 1>me a line on Facebook or Twitter to handle it.

0:31:39.040 --> 0:31:42.080
<v Speaker 1>Both of those is tech Stuff H s W. Don't

0:31:42.160 --> 0:31:45.200
<v Speaker 1>forget to follow us on Instagram and I'll talk to

0:31:45.280 --> 0:31:54.280
<v Speaker 1>you again really soon for more on this and thousands

0:31:54.320 --> 0:31:56.640
<v Speaker 1>of other topics. Is it how stuff works dot com?

0:32:00.040 --> 0:32:02.120
<v Speaker 1>Who