WEBVTT - Al Gore plans to break the petrostate stranglehold on climate progress 0:00:01.120 --> 0:00:28.440 Welcome to zero. I am Akshatrati today sewers sanity and solutions. 0:00:20.120 --> 0:00:20.720 Here in Dubay. 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:23.920 Some hundred thousand people have arrived for COP twenty eight 0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:27.960 from all around the world. For many, it's their first COP. 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:32.000 They have had to grapple with unfamiliar settings, abundant legalies, 0:00:32.440 --> 0:00:36.200 and an intense schedule of meetings. Others have been here 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:40.760 since the start. COP is familiar ground. That's the case 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:45.360 for former US Vice President Al Gore, but he's much 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:48.400 more than a copcer. Many of today's climate activists have 0:00:48.440 --> 0:00:52.440 told me that Al Gore's movie An Inconvenient Truth was 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:56.400 the reason they became activists in the first place. The 0:00:56.480 --> 0:00:58.920 movie won an Academy Award in two thousand and seven 0:00:59.200 --> 0:01:03.000 and also bag him that year's Nobel Peace Prize alongside 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:06.920 the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, and he's been at 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:10.360 it for much longer. He held hearings on climate change 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:14.480 in the US Congress as far back as nineteen seventy six. 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:18.000 Since then, he has become the de facto spokesman for 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:22.640 climate change. In recent years, and especially before this Climate Conference, 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:26.000 he's become much more vocal in calling out the villains. 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:29.200 He has castigated the role of Petro States and all 0:01:29.280 --> 0:01:33.280 companies in shaping the COP agenda, saying they've taken the 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:37.560 disguise off and are not good faith partners. I spoke 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:40.120 with al Gore at the Bloombergreen Summit at COP twenty 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:42.840 eight in Dubai to ask him how to break the 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:47.639 stranglehold Petro States have over COP, why tackling climate change 0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:51.480 solves many other problems, and why big emitters can no 0:01:51.600 --> 0:01:52.360 longer hide. 0:01:56.800 --> 0:02:05.520 Thank you, Thank you very much, enthusiastic fans of your 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:06.040 new book. 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:11.639 Well, thank you for your time. It's very precious. 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:12.920 Thank you for inviting me. 0:02:13.080 --> 0:02:15.680 Now let's start with something that you make very clear. 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:19.680 You say we use our atmosphere as a sewer. We 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:22.800 dump one hundred and sixty two million tons of COEO 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:28.480 doing it every day. You're also absolutely clear that COP 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:32.519 twenty eight must have countries agreeing to phasing out fossil 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:38.320 fuels without any caveats. But the reason it has taken 0:02:38.400 --> 0:02:42.640 us until COP twenty eight to even talk about phasing 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:46.760 out fossil fuels is because of what happened at COP 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:49.359 one in Berlin in nineteen ninety five. 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:50.919 You were there. 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:54.480 That's when it was decided that the progress at COPS 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:58.560 can only happen through consensus. Why are we stuck with 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:02.000 this process that only pretty u is the minimum viable 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:06.720 progress that every country, including petrostates, agree on. 0:03:07.680 --> 0:03:10.120 Well, thank you for inviting me, and thank you for 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:13.160 this question. I want to make a brief passing comment 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:17.840 about that thin blue line that you referred to. I 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:21.280 always want to make the point so that it really 0:03:21.520 --> 0:03:25.880 sinks in if anybody hasn't really looked into this, that 0:03:25.919 --> 0:03:28.880 thin blue line is blue because that's where the oxygen 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:32.800 is that refracts the blue light with nitrogen. You've got 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:34.760 a PhD in this stuff, so I have to be 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:38.880 careful what I say. But if you could drive a 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:41.640 car straight up in the air at interstate highway speed, 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:43.680 you get to the top of it in five to 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:46.320 seven minutes. You could walk it in an hour. That's 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:49.840 what we're using as an open sower, and it lingers there. 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:55.640 On average, each molecule stays one hundred years, and the 0:03:55.720 --> 0:03:59.800 accumulated amount now traps as much extra heat as would 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:03.680 be lease by seven hundred and fifty thousand Erochma class 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:07.400 atomic bombs exploding on the Earth every twenty four hours. 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:10.960 So it's not a good thing. We need to stop 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:14.360 doing this. And the reason we've had such difficulty even 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:19.320 discussing the main problem directly for all of these years. 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:22.080 Since the summer of nineteen ninety two I was in 0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:26.320 Rio at the Earth Summit. It took three years to 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:31.680 organize the first COP. The president was a charismatic young 0:04:32.040 --> 0:04:36.640 environment minister from Germany, Angela Merkel, and the first order 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:39.760 of business was to adopt the rules for voting, and 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:46.839 Saudi Arabia objected, and since a consensus was required before 0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:50.400 the rules were adopted, it was laid on the table. 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:54.120 There was a very famous in those days, very famous 0:04:54.440 --> 0:04:58.440 coal lobbyists from the United States named Don Perlman. Never 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:03.800 speak ill of the department, but he was extremely influential, 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:08.640 really legendary, working hand in glove with the Saudi Arabian delegation. 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:11.800 And so since the rules could not be. 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:16.760 Adopted over Saudi Arabia's objections, the default procedure was the 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:24.160 requirement for consensus. And the word consensus differs in definition 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:28.960 from unanimity in the eye of the president of the COP. 0:05:29.120 --> 0:05:32.760 So the enormous power wielded by the president of a 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:38.520 COP any COP comes from the discretion that person has 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:44.080 as the moderator, chair presiding officer to either recognize an 0:05:44.120 --> 0:05:47.520 objection or not. And there have been plenty of times, 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:51.760 as you know, a shot where Vanuatu or one or 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:56.320 the other small most threatened nations near the back of 0:05:56.360 --> 0:05:59.040 the chambers waving their arms to object. 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:02.000 Oh well, seeing no injection, so ordered. 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:07.320 But if the Saudi delegation wherever they are, raises the head, 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:12.320 no we don't have consensus. Sorry, And so the situation 0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:16.960 that leaves our world community in is that we have 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:22.240 to beg for permission from a Petro from the Petro states. Please, sir, 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:24.839 may we protect the future of humanity? 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:25.039 No? 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:25.599 Sorry? 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:31.000 And yesterday Abdu la Ziz Ben Solomon, the energy minister 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:35.080 in Saudi Arabia, gave an interview on television and RhoD 0:06:35.400 --> 0:06:39.559 and was asked not about a measure to phase out 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:42.320 fossil fuels, which course is what we need, but a 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:45.440 measure to phase down fossil fuels. Would you accept that? 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:48.640 He said absolutely not. So here we are once again 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:51.839 we have to go to the largest Petro state and say, 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:55.120 may we have your permission to do something to protect 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:57.320 our grandchildren and all future generations. 0:06:57.480 --> 0:06:59.520 No, absolutely not. Well, you have. 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:03.760 Said that there is a way to reform this cup process. 0:07:04.080 --> 0:07:07.760 It will require parties to bring a resolution sinx months 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:10.720 ahead of a COP. Yes, it will require seventy five 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:14.480 percent of the party, of course, voting in favor to 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:17.440 get rid of the consensus and put in place perhaps 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:20.360 a supermajority or whatever the party's decide, but something that 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:23.800 is not a consensus. Now do you think that can 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:26.720 ever happen? Are you pushing for it? And who else 0:07:27.080 --> 0:07:28.960 needs to be involved to make it happen? 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:32.400 Yeah, I think it's difficult, extremely difficult, but I think 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:35.120 it is time to push for it because the stakes 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:38.600 are so high. We have to try every strategy to 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:44.120 save our future. There's a detail that is important to emphasize, 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:50.160 o shot. The amendment has to be to the underlying 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:55.680 treaty from Rio in ninety two. There are those international 0:07:55.800 --> 0:07:59.440 lawyers who will hear this proposal for reform, and based 0:07:59.480 --> 0:08:01.800 on their none of dealing with these cops, they so, no, 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:05.200 you can't do that, and they're right. If you just 0:08:05.320 --> 0:08:08.360 try to amend the rules of the particular cop you can't. 0:08:08.520 --> 0:08:11.000 But if you go back to the original treaty, all 0:08:11.080 --> 0:08:15.440 of these cops are legally appended to the original treaty, 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:19.480 and if you amend that original treaty, you can put 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:24.040 in a super majority proposal. There are two countries, Papua 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:29.880 New Guinea and Mexico I believe that have jointly proposed 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:34.199 this several times in the past. You're really on top 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:36.320 of this because you've already pointed out it has to 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:38.480 be laid on the table six months before the COP 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:41.880 good for you, and it has not been this time. 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:46.280 And of course this is not the president of the 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:50.320 COP to make this happen, but next time it should 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:54.600 be done. I do plan to argue in favor of that, 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:58.000 and I do plan to do my best to round 0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:00.480 up some advocates who will also do so. 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:03.719 You've made the case that the hegemonic system we have 0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:09.559 right now that produces the most progress is democratic capitalism. 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:12.880 We'll come to the democracy part a little later. Let's 0:09:12.920 --> 0:09:17.080 focus on capitalism. After you left politics, you founded Generation 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:20.720 Investment Management. It manages some thirty billion dollars. 0:09:20.880 --> 0:09:23.679 It's forty five not didn't matter. 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:28.800 Its goal is to show that it's possible to do 0:09:28.880 --> 0:09:32.640 good and to make money. An analysis by my colleague 0:09:32.679 --> 0:09:36.440 Stage ocassion looked at one of those funds where you've 0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:40.120 invested in equities and found that about half of the 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:43.880 holdings had increase in emissions between twenty fifteen to twenty 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:46.080 twenty one, which is sort of the post Paris period. 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:49.400 Now that's not the only thing that's happened. There's been 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:53.960 a huge political backlash on ESG the very metric that 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:57.120 we can use to try and correct the problems that 0:09:57.679 --> 0:10:04.160 unfettered capitalism that does not take externalities into consideration could correct. 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:07.960 But that backlash is causing many of the investors who 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:10.559 could see light, who could figure out, yes, there is 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:14.880 a way in which capitalism isn't a problem for climate change, 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:19.160 but a solution. So what needs to happen now, how 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:23.880 do we figure out whether capitalism can play a positive role? 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:28.640 The author of climate capitalism, So I'll do my best 0:10:28.720 --> 0:10:33.920 to have this exchange with you. First of all, they're 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:37.839 two fund Dublin and London, and sometimes the numbers are 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:41.480 you have to add them both together. But in any case, 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:47.720 I co founded it with my partner David blood And 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:52.160 who was the CEO of Goldman's Access at Management for 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:56.080 eleven years, and other partners. 0:10:56.600 --> 0:10:57.360 There's an old jog. 0:10:57.440 --> 0:11:00.640 But it's literally true that I wanted to the business 0:11:00.679 --> 0:11:04.160 blood and gore, But the other partners I mean. 0:11:07.400 --> 0:11:11.400 Instant brand recognition, I mean, you know, come on. 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:14.320 But the other our other co founders were not really 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:18.720 enthusiastic about it. But the whole theory is to invest 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:24.840 completely through the sustainability lens. Now on the large subject 0:11:24.880 --> 0:11:27.559 you've rave stockshot and that you've studied and written about 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:28.280 so eloquently. 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:30.600 I have some. 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:38.360 Idiosyncratic views about this. First of all, I am a capitalist, 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:43.480 and I do believe that capitalism is in a way 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:46.439 a bit like gravity in the sense that it's always 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:50.840 there and always has been, and to pretend otherwise is 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:54.520 a waste of time. I think they're thoughtful people who disagree. 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:58.600 But the you know, the the alternatives to the left 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:02.080 and right of of market capitalism that we're tried in 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:05.360 the twentieth century did not really work out too well. 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:10.480 And I do think that with reforms, capitalism is the 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:15.400 most useful tool to solve the climate crisis in North 0:12:15.400 --> 0:12:19.120 America and the European Union, well in North America. If 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:21.880 you look at all of the capital that's been spent 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:25.319 to deploy solar and wind ninety six percent of it 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:31.160 is from the private sector, only four percent from public funding. Now, 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:36.640 because of the unequal access to private lending in developing countries, 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:41.560 because of currency valuation, fluctuation risk and other country risks, 0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:47.439 those percentages are often reversed. In Nigeria, only fourteen percent 0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:51.120 is from the capital is from private capital. For the 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:56.000 renewable energy revolution, eighty six percent has to come from 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:58.360 governments and they don't have it. So we need to 0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:05.880 reform the acts to borrowing capacity for developing countries. But 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:08.600 the reforms need to go much deeper than that. If 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:11.440 you'll give me, if you'll let me have just a 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:17.560 moment on this. In the interwar period, in nineteen thirty seven, 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:23.640 when economists were trying to give policymakers better tools to 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:29.280 avoid another great depression, a great legendary economists named Simon 0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:32.240 Kuznets came up with what are referred to as the 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:36.920 national accounts, and most corporate accounting categories are derived from 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:41.000 the national accounts, and it was a brilliant piece of work. 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:45.440 But when he received his many prizes and awards, he 0:13:45.920 --> 0:13:50.640 made speeches and said, please do not use this system, 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:54.040 these national accounts as a guide for national economic policy 0:13:54.679 --> 0:13:57.800 because it leaves too much out. And then seven years 0:13:57.840 --> 0:14:02.480 later in Bretton Woods it was completely codified and we 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:04.760 still use it. It's sort of like the old quirty 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:08.560 keyboard on the typewriters. It makes no sense, but it's 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:10.120 a difficult thing to change. 0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:13.120 This is the gross domestic product that we use the economics. 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:16.000 The version of it that is that is best known. 0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:20.000 But he said what is left out? Four and four 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:23.520 categories of value, And of course these accounting categories are 0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:27.680 how we determine and decide what is valuable in our 0:14:27.760 --> 0:14:30.640 lives and in the economy. What's left out The first 0:14:30.680 --> 0:14:34.880 is fairly well known. It's almost a buzzphrase, negative externalities. 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:39.920 All of the global warming pollution is a negative externality. 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:44.600 It's not included in the accounting categories government or corporate. 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:48.160 The second thing that's left out is a little bit 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:54.160 is less well known, positive externalities. Now, what's that If 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:58.840 a community invests in mental health care, that's an expense 0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:03.160 on the town budget. When the benefits of that care, 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:07.240 if it's delivered well, come rolling back in in the 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:11.640 years and even decades afterwards, that is not counted as income. 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:16.680 So the structural bias is to avoid. 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:19.800 The expense because you're not getting any income as a result. 0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:25.680 The third category is depletion of natural resources. Now there 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:29.000 are three categories that really exemplify this part of the problem. 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:34.400 Underground water, aquifers, out of sight, out of mind, soon 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:40.880 out of water, topsoil. We are still losing enormous amounts 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:43.840 of very valuable top soil that can only be replaced 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:48.640 over centuries. And then, most important of all, the web 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:51.880 of living species of which we humans are a part. 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:54.960 We're in the middle of a great extinction crisis, and 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:57.600 by some estimates, we could lose fifty percent of the 0:15:57.640 --> 0:16:00.120 living species with which we share this earth in the 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:01.320 century on our watch. 0:16:01.760 --> 0:16:02.800 That can't be good. 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:07.560 And the fourth thing that's left out is the distribution 0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:12.120 of incomes and net worths, which are affected profoundly by 0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:19.360 things like tax policy and regulatory policy. So if all 0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:21.720 four of those things are left out, you get this 0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:26.880 anomaly where oh, GDP went up three percent. Oh my gosh, 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:30.480 look this country has gone up five percent. Yay, big cheers, 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:35.320 But it's accompanied by vast increases in global warming pollution, 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:42.520 chronic under investment in public goods like education and healthcare, 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:48.800 and mental health care, and environmental protection, reckless depreciation of groundwater, 0:16:48.880 --> 0:16:54.080 top soil, and the fraying of the biodiversity. So GDP 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:57.320 goes up and people celebrate, and it's accompanied by all 0:16:57.360 --> 0:17:01.200 these bad things, plus the emergence of inequality that has 0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:06.000 morphed into hyper inequality. And when the vast majority of 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:10.440 income goes to the top one tenth of one percent 0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:16.080 and the average middle class and most countries have no 0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:20.720 inflation adjusted increase in income for forty five years, they 0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:25.640 vote for some demagogic, populist authoritarian of which there are 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:29.600 too many running around these days, including I'm embarrassed to 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:32.680 say back in my country. 0:17:42.080 --> 0:17:43.520 Well you knew I was going to ask you a 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:47.160 democracy question. Next, we are sitting here in a Petro 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:51.800 state which is done arguably more in the region move 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:55.200 away from fossil fuels than other countries, yet a little 0:17:55.240 --> 0:17:58.399 less than thirty percent of its flawed grows to messages 0:17:58.400 --> 0:17:59.120 when you might say. 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:03.560 They've moved away more away from Well, can't you write 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:07.040 the story that said maz dar has is not operating 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:10.440 twenty gigawatts of renewables but only three point two gigawats? 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:13.359 Did I did? I just wanted double check that. 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:24.720 Compared to southi Arabia moving right, A. 0:18:25.920 --> 0:18:26.919 Compared to Saudi. 0:18:26.680 --> 0:18:31.640 Arabia, the UAE gets its income goes domestic product lower yes, 0:18:31.680 --> 0:18:36.119 low bar, so a lower bar. The US, on the 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:38.840 other hand, gets only three percent of his gross domestic 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:42.520 product from fossil fields. Yet when the Republican Party is 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:45.760 in power, it acts like a petro state it does 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:50.399 on climate change. So big question, what needs to be 0:18:50.440 --> 0:18:53.760 done to fix the democratic crisis in the US, second 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:59.320 biggest polluter annually, largest polluter historically, to make it a 0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:02.359 credible power during the climate fight, not just under Joe 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:04.720 Biden's leadership but every president. 0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:09.439 Yeah, yeah, yeah. My country is the largest producer of 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:12.640 oil now and largest producer of gas as well, more 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:17.200 oil and Saudi Arabia more gas than cover. But there 0:19:17.280 --> 0:19:23.440 is a transition underway and the ira is, as most 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:27.680 understand by far the best and biggest climate legislation any 0:19:27.680 --> 0:19:33.080 countries ever passed. But to your larger question, Oxshot, alongside 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:37.840 the climate crisis, we also have a democracy crisis. I've 0:19:38.320 --> 0:19:42.800 tried to understand the causes of this. They are many, 0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:47.840 and I believe that the forgive, forgive, the geeky phrase. 0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:53.920 The information ecosystem within which a self government government takes 0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:59.680 place is really important, and the institutions of representative democracy 0:20:00.359 --> 0:20:04.520 innovated in the United States were constructed during the age 0:20:04.560 --> 0:20:09.720 of the printing press. The shift from an information ecosystem 0:20:09.760 --> 0:20:14.920 based on print to one based on broadcasting, and then 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:19.360 moving on to the Internet and to social media has 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:26.720 disrupted the balances that used to exist that made representative 0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:34.400 democracy work much better. These centralized information systems tempt autocrats 0:20:34.560 --> 0:20:39.800 to control information. You know, Hitler's book The Triumph of 0:20:39.840 --> 0:20:47.000 the Will implies a question triumph over what. One thing 0:20:47.040 --> 0:20:52.600 that triumphs over is the authority of knowledge because a free, 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:58.840 self governing people rely on a shared base of knowledge 0:20:59.520 --> 0:21:04.960 that nerves as a basis for reasoning together collectively. But 0:21:06.320 --> 0:21:10.960 if you have social media that is dominated by algorithms 0:21:11.800 --> 0:21:16.399 that pull people down these rabbit holes that are a 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:21.520 bit like picture plants. These algorithms, they are the digital 0:21:21.560 --> 0:21:24.520 equivalent of ar fifteens. They ought to be banned. They 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:28.080 really ought to be banned. It's an abuse of the 0:21:28.160 --> 0:21:32.320 public forum. But these when people are pulled down these 0:21:32.640 --> 0:21:34.879 rabbit holes, you know what's at the bottom of the 0:21:34.960 --> 0:21:39.680 rabbit hole. That's where the echo chamber is. And if 0:21:39.720 --> 0:21:43.160 you spend too much time in the echo chamber, what's 0:21:43.240 --> 0:21:47.880 weaponized is another form of AI, not artificial intelligence, artificial insanity. 0:21:48.800 --> 0:21:55.919 I'm serious, I'm serious. Q Andon is just the best 0:21:56.000 --> 0:22:03.359 known version of artificial insanity. These devices are the enemies 0:22:04.080 --> 0:22:07.560 of self government and they're the enemies of democracy. We 0:22:07.640 --> 0:22:12.199 need reforms for both democracy and capitalism. Both sets of 0:22:12.240 --> 0:22:13.400 reforms are possible. 0:22:13.800 --> 0:22:16.880 Well, it seems tacking climate change might be actually easier 0:22:16.920 --> 0:22:19.320 than trying to figure out how to fix democracy. 0:22:19.920 --> 0:22:25.320 Well, we hear this new word poly crisis, so many 0:22:25.359 --> 0:22:26.360 different crises. 0:22:27.200 --> 0:22:27.800 I think that. 0:22:30.320 --> 0:22:35.200 Solving climate change is a poly solution, and I really 0:22:35.240 --> 0:22:42.240 believe that because we have a shared planetary priority to 0:22:42.440 --> 0:22:46.880 save humanity's future, we are in way more danger right 0:22:46.920 --> 0:22:51.880 now than most people realize. You're probably aware that one 0:22:51.920 --> 0:22:55.080 and a half million people in East Africa are forced 0:22:55.080 --> 0:22:59.480 from their homes today by another of the rain bombs. 0:22:59.520 --> 0:23:04.960 That's the wreck consequence, much worse because of the climate crisis. 0:23:05.520 --> 0:23:09.200 You may be aware that this summer here in Dubai, 0:23:09.800 --> 0:23:14.679 the feels like temperatures, the combination of temperature and humidity 0:23:14.760 --> 0:23:18.919 have been up to sixty degrees sixty two degrees in 0:23:19.000 --> 0:23:23.440 China last years temperature ever. But we are now seeing 0:23:23.640 --> 0:23:28.120 a very real and present danger of a billion climate 0:23:28.200 --> 0:23:33.000 refugees crossing international borders to escape conditions that the scientists 0:23:33.080 --> 0:23:39.880 tell us are becoming physiologically unlivable. And if this authoritarian 0:23:40.440 --> 0:23:44.880 populism is provoked by a few million climate refugees coming 0:23:44.880 --> 0:23:49.480 from the Eastern Mediterranean to Hungary and orban Land and whatever, 0:23:50.480 --> 0:23:53.280 what about a billion, which is what the Lancet projects, 0:23:53.320 --> 0:23:57.400 may be possible. So I honestly think that getting our 0:23:57.640 --> 0:24:02.040 collective act together in order to solve the climate crisis 0:24:02.359 --> 0:24:07.119 could be the engine that pulls solutions for democracy and 0:24:07.240 --> 0:24:11.560 capitalism and the other the extinction crisis, Because if we 0:24:11.800 --> 0:24:18.200 can reconstruct an ability to share a common base of 0:24:18.359 --> 0:24:23.560 accepted knowledge and reason together towards solutions for our crises, 0:24:24.000 --> 0:24:27.600 I think that is the pathway to restoration of sanity 0:24:27.640 --> 0:24:28.639 and self governance. 0:24:28.920 --> 0:24:29.280 Thank you. 0:24:34.280 --> 0:24:37.200 That's where our on stage conversation at the Bloomberg Green 0:24:37.240 --> 0:24:40.040 Summit finished, but I was able to get some more 0:24:40.080 --> 0:24:43.480 time with Al Gore backstage. That's coming up after the break. 0:24:53.000 --> 0:24:55.679 One follow up question from something we talked about on stage. 0:24:56.000 --> 0:24:58.919 We talked about moving to a supermajority system in the 0:24:58.960 --> 0:25:03.320 cup process, but not having a consensus, which is the 0:25:03.359 --> 0:25:07.240 current state, could also cause the process to be less 0:25:07.280 --> 0:25:11.200 credible than say, the Paras agreement, which was achieved through consensus. 0:25:12.040 --> 0:25:16.399 Do you foresee if there is a reform, as you 0:25:16.600 --> 0:25:20.840 argue for, that cobs become even more irrelevant than they 0:25:20.920 --> 0:25:21.600 already are. 0:25:22.160 --> 0:25:26.199 I think they could become more controversial and difficult. But 0:25:26.600 --> 0:25:28.879 the old saying you got to break some eggs to 0:25:28.920 --> 0:25:30.560 make an omelet applies. 0:25:30.680 --> 0:25:31.600 In my view. 0:25:32.119 --> 0:25:36.800 This isn't working. This isn't working. We have seen a dramatic, 0:25:36.840 --> 0:25:41.600 almost miraculous rise in the deployment of solar and wind 0:25:41.680 --> 0:25:46.560 electricity and electric vehicles and batteries, and regenerative agriculture is 0:25:46.600 --> 0:25:50.679 not far behind, and maybe green hydrogen as well. But 0:25:50.840 --> 0:25:54.160 we're still increasing the burning of fossil fuels every year 0:25:54.200 --> 0:25:57.280 and that simply got to stop. And if this go along, 0:25:57.359 --> 0:26:01.080 get along, consensus begging permission from the Petro States is 0:26:01.119 --> 0:26:04.159 not producing solutions. We have to change the process. Too 0:26:04.280 --> 0:26:07.600 much is at stake. We can't just go along to 0:26:07.680 --> 0:26:10.440 get along forever. There have been twenty eight of these 0:26:10.600 --> 0:26:13.840 cops now and the emissions are still going up every 0:26:14.000 --> 0:26:16.679 single year except for the pandemic, and then they went 0:26:16.760 --> 0:26:20.600 right back up up again after that. We can't continue this. 0:26:21.600 --> 0:26:24.320 You know the old cliche. If you keep doing the 0:26:24.359 --> 0:26:28.240 same thing over and over again getting the same terrible result, 0:26:28.840 --> 0:26:32.119 that's a definition of insanity. And we have to change 0:26:32.119 --> 0:26:33.359 this process now. 0:26:33.520 --> 0:26:36.000 In preparation for this interview, we watched a lot of 0:26:36.040 --> 0:26:38.600 your interviews, a lot of your podcast chats. One of 0:26:38.640 --> 0:26:42.680 the things that I've seen has changed. You're a communicator 0:26:42.720 --> 0:26:46.320 of science bar none. You're able to channel scientists and 0:26:46.359 --> 0:26:49.679 get the message across like no other. But you have 0:26:49.880 --> 0:26:55.240 also become angry. If I can say that your speeches 0:26:55.280 --> 0:26:58.919 have become so powerful, what has changed in this time 0:26:59.359 --> 0:27:02.160 of you trying to get the climate message out there. 0:27:02.560 --> 0:27:07.679 I would not use the word anger. I would be 0:27:07.840 --> 0:27:13.160 comfortable with the word passionate. And I guess I can 0:27:13.240 --> 0:27:16.600 fully understand why some of it may come across this anger. 0:27:17.119 --> 0:27:19.320 Maybe I need to dial that back a little bit, 0:27:19.440 --> 0:27:23.680 But whatever word you use to describe it, the reason 0:27:23.800 --> 0:27:29.639 why I have been a lot more passionate in recent years, 0:27:29.680 --> 0:27:34.400 I guess is because we're running out of time. It's 0:27:34.440 --> 0:27:39.040 that simple. Really. I was raised in a family and 0:27:39.200 --> 0:27:45.879 in a country that gave me the belief that reasonable 0:27:45.920 --> 0:27:52.960