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Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I am Akshatrati today sewers sanity and solutions.

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Speaker 2: Here in Dubay.

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Speaker 1: Some hundred thousand people have arrived for COP twenty eight

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Speaker 1: from all around the world. For many, it's their first COP.

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Speaker 1: They have had to grapple with unfamiliar settings, abundant legalies,

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Speaker 1: and an intense schedule of meetings. Others have been here

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Speaker 1: since the start. COP is familiar ground. That's the case

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Speaker 1: for former US Vice President Al Gore, but he's much

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Speaker 1: more than a copcer. Many of today's climate activists have

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Speaker 1: told me that Al Gore's movie An Inconvenient Truth was

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Speaker 1: the reason they became activists in the first place. The

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Speaker 1: movie won an Academy Award in two thousand and seven

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Speaker 1: and also bag him that year's Nobel Peace Prize alongside

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Speaker 1: the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, and he's been at

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Speaker 1: it for much longer. He held hearings on climate change

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Speaker 1: in the US Congress as far back as nineteen seventy six.

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Speaker 1: Since then, he has become the de facto spokesman for

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Speaker 1: climate change. In recent years, and especially before this Climate Conference,

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Speaker 1: he's become much more vocal in calling out the villains.

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Speaker 1: He has castigated the role of Petro States and all

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Speaker 1: companies in shaping the COP agenda, saying they've taken the

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Speaker 1: disguise off and are not good faith partners. I spoke

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Speaker 1: with al Gore at the Bloombergreen Summit at COP twenty

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Speaker 1: eight in Dubai to ask him how to break the

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Speaker 1: stranglehold Petro States have over COP, why tackling climate change

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Speaker 1: solves many other problems, and why big emitters can no

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Speaker 1: longer hide.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you very much, enthusiastic fans of your

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Speaker 3: new book.

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Speaker 1: Well, thank you for your time. It's very precious.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for inviting me.

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Speaker 1: Now let's start with something that you make very clear.

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Speaker 1: You say we use our atmosphere as a sewer. We

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Speaker 1: dump one hundred and sixty two million tons of COEO

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Speaker 1: doing it every day. You're also absolutely clear that COP

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Speaker 1: twenty eight must have countries agreeing to phasing out fossil

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Speaker 1: fuels without any caveats. But the reason it has taken

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Speaker 1: us until COP twenty eight to even talk about phasing

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Speaker 1: out fossil fuels is because of what happened at COP

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Speaker 1: one in Berlin in nineteen ninety five.

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Speaker 2: You were there.

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Speaker 1: That's when it was decided that the progress at COPS

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Speaker 1: can only happen through consensus. Why are we stuck with

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Speaker 1: this process that only pretty u is the minimum viable

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Speaker 1: progress that every country, including petrostates, agree on.

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Speaker 3: Well, thank you for inviting me, and thank you for

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Speaker 3: this question. I want to make a brief passing comment

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Speaker 3: about that thin blue line that you referred to. I

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Speaker 3: always want to make the point so that it really

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Speaker 3: sinks in if anybody hasn't really looked into this, that

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Speaker 3: thin blue line is blue because that's where the oxygen

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Speaker 3: is that refracts the blue light with nitrogen. You've got

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Speaker 3: a PhD in this stuff, so I have to be

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Speaker 3: careful what I say. But if you could drive a

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Speaker 3: car straight up in the air at interstate highway speed,

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Speaker 3: you get to the top of it in five to

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Speaker 3: seven minutes. You could walk it in an hour. That's

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Speaker 3: what we're using as an open sower, and it lingers there.

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Speaker 3: On average, each molecule stays one hundred years, and the

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Speaker 3: accumulated amount now traps as much extra heat as would

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Speaker 3: be lease by seven hundred and fifty thousand Erochma class

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Speaker 3: atomic bombs exploding on the Earth every twenty four hours.

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Speaker 3: So it's not a good thing. We need to stop

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Speaker 3: doing this. And the reason we've had such difficulty even

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Speaker 3: discussing the main problem directly for all of these years.

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Speaker 3: Since the summer of nineteen ninety two I was in

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Speaker 3: Rio at the Earth Summit. It took three years to

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Speaker 3: organize the first COP. The president was a charismatic young

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Speaker 3: environment minister from Germany, Angela Merkel, and the first order

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Speaker 3: of business was to adopt the rules for voting, and

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Speaker 3: Saudi Arabia objected, and since a consensus was required before

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Speaker 3: the rules were adopted, it was laid on the table.

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Speaker 3: There was a very famous in those days, very famous

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Speaker 3: coal lobbyists from the United States named Don Perlman. Never

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Speaker 3: speak ill of the department, but he was extremely influential,

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Speaker 3: really legendary, working hand in glove with the Saudi Arabian delegation.

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Speaker 2: And so since the rules could not be.

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Speaker 3: Adopted over Saudi Arabia's objections, the default procedure was the

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Speaker 3: requirement for consensus. And the word consensus differs in definition

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Speaker 3: from unanimity in the eye of the president of the COP.

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Speaker 3: So the enormous power wielded by the president of a

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Speaker 3: COP any COP comes from the discretion that person has

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Speaker 3: as the moderator, chair presiding officer to either recognize an

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Speaker 3: objection or not. And there have been plenty of times,

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Speaker 3: as you know, a shot where Vanuatu or one or

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Speaker 3: the other small most threatened nations near the back of

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Speaker 3: the chambers waving their arms to object.

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Speaker 2: Oh well, seeing no injection, so ordered.

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Speaker 3: But if the Saudi delegation wherever they are, raises the head,

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Speaker 3: no we don't have consensus. Sorry, And so the situation

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Speaker 3: that leaves our world community in is that we have

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Speaker 3: to beg for permission from a Petro from the Petro states. Please, sir,

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Speaker 3: may we protect the future of humanity?

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Speaker 1: No?

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Speaker 2: Sorry?

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Speaker 3: And yesterday Abdu la Ziz Ben Solomon, the energy minister

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Speaker 3: in Saudi Arabia, gave an interview on television and RhoD

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Speaker 3: and was asked not about a measure to phase out

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Speaker 3: fossil fuels, which course is what we need, but a

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Speaker 3: measure to phase down fossil fuels. Would you accept that?

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Speaker 3: He said absolutely not. So here we are once again

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Speaker 3: we have to go to the largest Petro state and say,

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Speaker 3: may we have your permission to do something to protect

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Speaker 3: our grandchildren and all future generations.

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Speaker 2: No, absolutely not. Well, you have.

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Speaker 1: Said that there is a way to reform this cup process.

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Speaker 1: It will require parties to bring a resolution sinx months

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Speaker 1: ahead of a COP. Yes, it will require seventy five

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Speaker 1: percent of the party, of course, voting in favor to

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Speaker 1: get rid of the consensus and put in place perhaps

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Speaker 1: a supermajority or whatever the party's decide, but something that

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Speaker 1: is not a consensus. Now do you think that can

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Speaker 1: ever happen? Are you pushing for it? And who else

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Speaker 1: needs to be involved to make it happen?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's difficult, extremely difficult, but I think

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Speaker 3: it is time to push for it because the stakes

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Speaker 3: are so high. We have to try every strategy to

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Speaker 3: save our future. There's a detail that is important to emphasize,

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Speaker 3: o shot. The amendment has to be to the underlying

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Speaker 3: treaty from Rio in ninety two. There are those international

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Speaker 3: lawyers who will hear this proposal for reform, and based

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Speaker 3: on their none of dealing with these cops, they so, no,

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Speaker 3: you can't do that, and they're right. If you just

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Speaker 3: try to amend the rules of the particular cop you can't.

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Speaker 3: But if you go back to the original treaty, all

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Speaker 3: of these cops are legally appended to the original treaty,

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Speaker 3: and if you amend that original treaty, you can put

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Speaker 3: in a super majority proposal. There are two countries, Papua

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Speaker 3: New Guinea and Mexico I believe that have jointly proposed

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Speaker 3: this several times in the past. You're really on top

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Speaker 3: of this because you've already pointed out it has to

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Speaker 3: be laid on the table six months before the COP

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Speaker 3: good for you, and it has not been this time.

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Speaker 3: And of course this is not the president of the

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Speaker 3: COP to make this happen, but next time it should

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Speaker 3: be done. I do plan to argue in favor of that,

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Speaker 3: and I do plan to do my best to round

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Speaker 3: up some advocates who will also do so.

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Speaker 1: You've made the case that the hegemonic system we have

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Speaker 1: right now that produces the most progress is democratic capitalism.

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Speaker 1: We'll come to the democracy part a little later. Let's

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Speaker 1: focus on capitalism. After you left politics, you founded Generation

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Speaker 1: Investment Management. It manages some thirty billion dollars.

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Speaker 2: It's forty five not didn't matter.

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Speaker 1: Its goal is to show that it's possible to do

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Speaker 1: good and to make money. An analysis by my colleague

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Speaker 1: Stage ocassion looked at one of those funds where you've

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Speaker 1: invested in equities and found that about half of the

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Speaker 1: holdings had increase in emissions between twenty fifteen to twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty one, which is sort of the post Paris period.

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Speaker 1: Now that's not the only thing that's happened. There's been

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Speaker 1: a huge political backlash on ESG the very metric that

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Speaker 1: we can use to try and correct the problems that

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Speaker 1: unfettered capitalism that does not take externalities into consideration could correct.

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Speaker 1: But that backlash is causing many of the investors who

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Speaker 1: could see light, who could figure out, yes, there is

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Speaker 1: a way in which capitalism isn't a problem for climate change,

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Speaker 1: but a solution. So what needs to happen now, how

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Speaker 1: do we figure out whether capitalism can play a positive role?

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Speaker 3: The author of climate capitalism, So I'll do my best

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Speaker 3: to have this exchange with you. First of all, they're

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Speaker 3: two fund Dublin and London, and sometimes the numbers are

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Speaker 3: you have to add them both together. But in any case,

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Speaker 3: I co founded it with my partner David blood And

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Speaker 3: who was the CEO of Goldman's Access at Management for

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Speaker 3: eleven years, and other partners.

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Speaker 2: There's an old jog.

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Speaker 3: But it's literally true that I wanted to the business

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Speaker 3: blood and gore, But the other partners I mean.

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Speaker 2: Instant brand recognition, I mean, you know, come on.

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Speaker 3: But the other our other co founders were not really

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Speaker 3: enthusiastic about it. But the whole theory is to invest

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Speaker 3: completely through the sustainability lens. Now on the large subject

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Speaker 3: you've rave stockshot and that you've studied and written about

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Speaker 3: so eloquently.

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Speaker 2: I have some.

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Speaker 3: Idiosyncratic views about this. First of all, I am a capitalist,

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Speaker 3: and I do believe that capitalism is in a way

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Speaker 3: a bit like gravity in the sense that it's always

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Speaker 3: there and always has been, and to pretend otherwise is

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Speaker 3: a waste of time. I think they're thoughtful people who disagree.

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Speaker 3: But the you know, the the alternatives to the left

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Speaker 3: and right of of market capitalism that we're tried in

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Speaker 3: the twentieth century did not really work out too well.

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Speaker 3: And I do think that with reforms, capitalism is the

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Speaker 3: most useful tool to solve the climate crisis in North

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Speaker 3: America and the European Union, well in North America. If

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Speaker 3: you look at all of the capital that's been spent

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Speaker 3: to deploy solar and wind ninety six percent of it

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Speaker 3: is from the private sector, only four percent from public funding. Now,

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Speaker 3: because of the unequal access to private lending in developing countries,

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Speaker 3: because of currency valuation, fluctuation risk and other country risks,

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Speaker 3: those percentages are often reversed. In Nigeria, only fourteen percent

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Speaker 3: is from the capital is from private capital. For the

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Speaker 3: renewable energy revolution, eighty six percent has to come from

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Speaker 3: governments and they don't have it. So we need to

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Speaker 3: reform the acts to borrowing capacity for developing countries. But

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Speaker 3: the reforms need to go much deeper than that. If

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Speaker 3: you'll give me, if you'll let me have just a

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Speaker 3: moment on this. In the interwar period, in nineteen thirty seven,

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Speaker 3: when economists were trying to give policymakers better tools to

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Speaker 3: avoid another great depression, a great legendary economists named Simon

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Speaker 3: Kuznets came up with what are referred to as the

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Speaker 3: national accounts, and most corporate accounting categories are derived from

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Speaker 3: the national accounts, and it was a brilliant piece of work.

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Speaker 3: But when he received his many prizes and awards, he

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Speaker 3: made speeches and said, please do not use this system,

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Speaker 3: these national accounts as a guide for national economic policy

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Speaker 3: because it leaves too much out. And then seven years

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Speaker 3: later in Bretton Woods it was completely codified and we

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Speaker 3: still use it. It's sort of like the old quirty

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Speaker 3: keyboard on the typewriters. It makes no sense, but it's

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Speaker 3: a difficult thing to change.

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Speaker 1: This is the gross domestic product that we use the economics.

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Speaker 3: The version of it that is that is best known.

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Speaker 3: But he said what is left out? Four and four

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Speaker 3: categories of value, And of course these accounting categories are

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Speaker 3: how we determine and decide what is valuable in our

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Speaker 3: lives and in the economy. What's left out The first

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Speaker 3: is fairly well known. It's almost a buzzphrase, negative externalities.

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Speaker 3: All of the global warming pollution is a negative externality.

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Speaker 3: It's not included in the accounting categories government or corporate.

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Speaker 3: The second thing that's left out is a little bit

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Speaker 3: is less well known, positive externalities. Now, what's that If

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Speaker 3: a community invests in mental health care, that's an expense

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Speaker 3: on the town budget. When the benefits of that care,

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Speaker 3: if it's delivered well, come rolling back in in the

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Speaker 3: years and even decades afterwards, that is not counted as income.

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Speaker 2: So the structural bias is to avoid.

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Speaker 3: The expense because you're not getting any income as a result.

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Speaker 3: The third category is depletion of natural resources. Now there

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Speaker 3: are three categories that really exemplify this part of the problem.

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Speaker 3: Underground water, aquifers, out of sight, out of mind, soon

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Speaker 3: out of water, topsoil. We are still losing enormous amounts

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Speaker 3: of very valuable top soil that can only be replaced

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Speaker 3: over centuries. And then, most important of all, the web

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Speaker 3: of living species of which we humans are a part.

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Speaker 3: We're in the middle of a great extinction crisis, and

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Speaker 3: by some estimates, we could lose fifty percent of the

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Speaker 3: living species with which we share this earth in the

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Speaker 3: century on our watch.

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Speaker 2: That can't be good.

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Speaker 3: And the fourth thing that's left out is the distribution

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Speaker 3: of incomes and net worths, which are affected profoundly by

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Speaker 3: things like tax policy and regulatory policy. So if all

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Speaker 3: four of those things are left out, you get this

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Speaker 3: anomaly where oh, GDP went up three percent. Oh my gosh,

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Speaker 3: look this country has gone up five percent. Yay, big cheers,

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Speaker 3: But it's accompanied by vast increases in global warming pollution,

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Speaker 3: chronic under investment in public goods like education and healthcare,

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Speaker 3: and mental health care, and environmental protection, reckless depreciation of groundwater,

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Speaker 3: top soil, and the fraying of the biodiversity. So GDP

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Speaker 3: goes up and people celebrate, and it's accompanied by all

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Speaker 3: these bad things, plus the emergence of inequality that has

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Speaker 3: morphed into hyper inequality. And when the vast majority of

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Speaker 3: income goes to the top one tenth of one percent

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Speaker 3: and the average middle class and most countries have no

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Speaker 3: inflation adjusted increase in income for forty five years, they

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Speaker 3: vote for some demagogic, populist authoritarian of which there are

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Speaker 3: too many running around these days, including I'm embarrassed to

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Speaker 3: say back in my country.

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Speaker 1: Well you knew I was going to ask you a

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Speaker 1: democracy question. Next, we are sitting here in a Petro

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Speaker 1: state which is done arguably more in the region move

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Speaker 1: away from fossil fuels than other countries, yet a little

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Speaker 1: less than thirty percent of its flawed grows to messages

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Speaker 1: when you might say.

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Speaker 3: They've moved away more away from Well, can't you write

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Speaker 3: the story that said maz dar has is not operating

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Speaker 3: twenty gigawatts of renewables but only three point two gigawats?

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Speaker 2: Did I did? I just wanted double check that.

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Speaker 1: Compared to southi Arabia moving right, A.

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Speaker 2: Compared to Saudi.

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Speaker 1: Arabia, the UAE gets its income goes domestic product lower yes,

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Speaker 1: low bar, so a lower bar. The US, on the

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Speaker 1: other hand, gets only three percent of his gross domestic

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Speaker 1: product from fossil fields. Yet when the Republican Party is

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Speaker 1: in power, it acts like a petro state it does

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Speaker 1: on climate change. So big question, what needs to be

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Speaker 1: done to fix the democratic crisis in the US, second

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Speaker 1: biggest polluter annually, largest polluter historically, to make it a

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Speaker 1: credible power during the climate fight, not just under Joe

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Speaker 1: Biden's leadership but every president.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah. My country is the largest producer of

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Speaker 3: oil now and largest producer of gas as well, more

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Speaker 3: oil and Saudi Arabia more gas than cover. But there

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Speaker 3: is a transition underway and the ira is, as most

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Speaker 3: understand by far the best and biggest climate legislation any

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Speaker 3: countries ever passed. But to your larger question, Oxshot, alongside

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Speaker 3: the climate crisis, we also have a democracy crisis. I've

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Speaker 3: tried to understand the causes of this. They are many,

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Speaker 3: and I believe that the forgive, forgive, the geeky phrase.

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Speaker 3: The information ecosystem within which a self government government takes

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Speaker 3: place is really important, and the institutions of representative democracy

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Speaker 3: innovated in the United States were constructed during the age

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Speaker 3: of the printing press. The shift from an information ecosystem

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Speaker 3: based on print to one based on broadcasting, and then

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Speaker 3: moving on to the Internet and to social media has

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Speaker 3: disrupted the balances that used to exist that made representative

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Speaker 3: democracy work much better. These centralized information systems tempt autocrats

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Speaker 3: to control information. You know, Hitler's book The Triumph of

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Speaker 3: the Will implies a question triumph over what. One thing

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Speaker 3: that triumphs over is the authority of knowledge because a free,

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Speaker 3: self governing people rely on a shared base of knowledge

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Speaker 3: that nerves as a basis for reasoning together collectively. But

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Speaker 3: if you have social media that is dominated by algorithms

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Speaker 3: that pull people down these rabbit holes that are a

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Speaker 3: bit like picture plants. These algorithms, they are the digital

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Speaker 3: equivalent of ar fifteens. They ought to be banned. They

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Speaker 3: really ought to be banned. It's an abuse of the

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Speaker 3: public forum. But these when people are pulled down these

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Speaker 3: rabbit holes, you know what's at the bottom of the

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Speaker 3: rabbit hole. That's where the echo chamber is. And if

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Speaker 3: you spend too much time in the echo chamber, what's

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Speaker 3: weaponized is another form of AI, not artificial intelligence, artificial insanity.

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Speaker 3: I'm serious, I'm serious. Q Andon is just the best

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Speaker 3: known version of artificial insanity. These devices are the enemies

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Speaker 3: of self government and they're the enemies of democracy. We

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Speaker 3: need reforms for both democracy and capitalism. Both sets of

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Speaker 3: reforms are possible.

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Speaker 1: Well, it seems tacking climate change might be actually easier

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Speaker 1: than trying to figure out how to fix democracy.

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Speaker 3: Well, we hear this new word poly crisis, so many

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Speaker 3: different crises.

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Speaker 2: I think that.

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Speaker 3: Solving climate change is a poly solution, and I really

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Speaker 3: believe that because we have a shared planetary priority to

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Speaker 3: save humanity's future, we are in way more danger right

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Speaker 3: now than most people realize. You're probably aware that one

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Speaker 3: and a half million people in East Africa are forced

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Speaker 3: from their homes today by another of the rain bombs.

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Speaker 3: That's the wreck consequence, much worse because of the climate crisis.

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Speaker 3: You may be aware that this summer here in Dubai,

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Speaker 3: the feels like temperatures, the combination of temperature and humidity

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Speaker 3: have been up to sixty degrees sixty two degrees in

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Speaker 3: China last years temperature ever. But we are now seeing

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Speaker 3: a very real and present danger of a billion climate

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Speaker 3: refugees crossing international borders to escape conditions that the scientists

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Speaker 3: tell us are becoming physiologically unlivable. And if this authoritarian

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Speaker 3: populism is provoked by a few million climate refugees coming

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Speaker 3: from the Eastern Mediterranean to Hungary and orban Land and whatever,

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Speaker 3: what about a billion, which is what the Lancet projects,

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Speaker 3: may be possible. So I honestly think that getting our

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Speaker 3: collective act together in order to solve the climate crisis

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Speaker 3: could be the engine that pulls solutions for democracy and

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Speaker 3: capitalism and the other the extinction crisis, Because if we

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Speaker 3: can reconstruct an ability to share a common base of

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Speaker 3: accepted knowledge and reason together towards solutions for our crises,

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Speaker 3: I think that is the pathway to restoration of sanity

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Speaker 3: and self governance.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: That's where our on stage conversation at the Bloomberg Green

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Speaker 1: Summit finished, but I was able to get some more

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Speaker 1: time with Al Gore backstage. That's coming up after the break.

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Speaker 1: One follow up question from something we talked about on stage.

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Speaker 1: We talked about moving to a supermajority system in the

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Speaker 1: cup process, but not having a consensus, which is the

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Speaker 1: current state, could also cause the process to be less

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Speaker 1: credible than say, the Paras agreement, which was achieved through consensus.

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Speaker 1: Do you foresee if there is a reform, as you

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Speaker 1: argue for, that cobs become even more irrelevant than they

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Speaker 1: already are.

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Speaker 3: I think they could become more controversial and difficult. But

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Speaker 3: the old saying you got to break some eggs to

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Speaker 3: make an omelet applies.

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Speaker 2: In my view.

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Speaker 3: This isn't working. This isn't working. We have seen a dramatic,

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Speaker 3: almost miraculous rise in the deployment of solar and wind

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Speaker 3: electricity and electric vehicles and batteries, and regenerative agriculture is

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Speaker 3: not far behind, and maybe green hydrogen as well. But

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Speaker 3: we're still increasing the burning of fossil fuels every year

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Speaker 3: and that simply got to stop. And if this go along,

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Speaker 3: get along, consensus begging permission from the Petro States is

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Speaker 3: not producing solutions. We have to change the process. Too

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Speaker 3: much is at stake. We can't just go along to

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Speaker 3: get along forever. There have been twenty eight of these

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Speaker 3: cops now and the emissions are still going up every

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Speaker 3: single year except for the pandemic, and then they went

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Speaker 3: right back up up again after that. We can't continue this.

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Speaker 3: You know the old cliche. If you keep doing the

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Speaker 3: same thing over and over again getting the same terrible result,

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Speaker 3: that's a definition of insanity. And we have to change

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Speaker 3: this process now.

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Speaker 1: In preparation for this interview, we watched a lot of

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Speaker 1: your interviews, a lot of your podcast chats. One of

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Speaker 1: the things that I've seen has changed. You're a communicator

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Speaker 1: of science bar none. You're able to channel scientists and

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Speaker 1: get the message across like no other. But you have

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Speaker 1: also become angry. If I can say that your speeches

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Speaker 1: have become so powerful, what has changed in this time

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Speaker 1: of you trying to get the climate message out there.

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Speaker 3: I would not use the word anger. I would be

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Speaker 3: comfortable with the word passionate. And I guess I can

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Speaker 3: fully understand why some of it may come across this anger.

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Speaker 3: Maybe I need to dial that back a little bit,

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Speaker 3: But whatever word you use to describe it, the reason

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Speaker 3: why I have been a lot more passionate in recent years,

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Speaker 3: I guess is because we're running out of time. It's

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Speaker 3: that simple. Really. I was raised in a family and

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Speaker 3: in a country that gave me the belief that reasonable

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Speaker 3: people could discuss facts and attempt to come to some

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Speaker 3: mutual agreement about what's more likely to be true than not,

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Speaker 3: and then, after a discourse and the full airing of disagreements,

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Speaker 3: come to enough of a mutual understanding to use that

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Speaker 3: as a basis for collective action. In my faith tradition,

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Speaker 3: there is the saying, come, let us reason together. And

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Speaker 3: what we've witnessed, at least in my country, and I

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Speaker 3: see it in quite a few others as well in

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Speaker 3: recent years, is what seems to be a very cynical

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Speaker 3: use by powerful corporations and individuals sometimes to manipulate the

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Speaker 3: ways in which information is presented in the public square

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Speaker 3: and to distort it, and then, with repetition through advertising,

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Speaker 3: to try to manhandle the process that used to be

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Speaker 3: more organic and you used to result in the emergence

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Speaker 3: of agreement. I'll give you an example when the scientists

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Speaker 3: and doctors decades ago found out that smoking cigarettes causes

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Speaker 3: lung cancer. That's the kind of new knowledge that used

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Speaker 3: to serve as the basis for discussion and then mutual commitment.

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Speaker 3: But the tobacco companies in response to a famous surgeon

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Speaker 3: general's report in the US hired actors and dressed them

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Speaker 3: up to pretend to be doctors and put them on

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Speaker 3: camera with their white coats and stethoscopes, and had them

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Speaker 3: look into the camera and with all of the affected

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Speaker 3: sincerity they could muster with their theatrical skills reassure people

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Speaker 3: that there were no health consequences at all, and one

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Speaker 3: hundred million people died. The same pr firms that came

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Speaker 3: up with that strategy are now advising Exon Mobile and

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Speaker 3: Saudi Arabia and the team managing COP twenty eight.

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Speaker 1: We are now on day six of this coon and

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Speaker 1: yet there has been progress, or at least seemingly progressed.

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Speaker 1: There's a loss and damage fund. There's all this money

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Speaker 1: being announced, which as investigative journalists we will find out

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Speaker 1: whether it's real or not. But those shiny objects are

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Speaker 1: being thrown at you. You've been part of these negotiations.

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Speaker 1: They are delicate, they require consensus. As we talked through it,

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Speaker 1: What does the moment as we stand now tell us

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Speaker 1: about how the next ten days are going to play

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Speaker 1: out before we do hopefully get a fossil fuel phase

439
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 1: out agreed on.

440
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 3: Well, let's talk about some of what you describe as progress.

441
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 3: And example a you used was the loss and Damage fund.

442
00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 3: I'm in favor of establishing the loss and damage fund.

443
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 3: It was really essentially adopted last year charmel shake. So

444
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 3: it's pulled out again to recycle the appearance of victory.

445
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 3: So does that make it a huge victory or a

446
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 3: bright shiny object that distracts us from job number one?

447
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 3: Job number one is to phase out fossil fuels. The

448
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 3: climate crisis is a fossil fuel crisis, and all of

449
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 3: the time that we spend talking about something other than

450
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 3: that is first and foremost a distraction from the moral duty.

451
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 3: I think this cop has to start phasing out fossil

452
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 3: fuels as quickly as possible. And this whole discussion about

453
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 3: unabated fossil fuels, as the Secretary of General said in

454
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 3: his opening speech, no abatement as they describe it as

455
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 3: the technologies now available make define it.

456
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 2: Is a ruse.

457
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 3: Really, it's a you know, Oxford University conducted a massive

458
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 3: study of the phenomenon known as Wright's law, the cost

459
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 3: reduction curves for technologies, and we've seen in our lives,

460
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 3: some stunning examples, the mobile phones, the flat screen TVs,

461
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 3: not to mention computer chips, and so they studied all

462
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 3: of them and some go down and cost very rapidly,

463
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 3: some a bit slowly. They have a very small category

464
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 3: labeled non improving technologies. That's the category that carbon capture

465
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 3: and sequestration is in. For fifty years, there's been zero

466
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 3: reduction in cost for carbon capture and sequestration. So any

467
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 3: expectation of a magical breakthrough that brings the cost down,

468
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 3: while not impossible. We've seen some surprising things in our lives,

469
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 3: but it's not likely.

470
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: The president of COPP has been the CEO of oil

471
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 1: company from the day he was announced as the cop president.

472
00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 1: There's been plenty of pushback from civil society, some from politicians,

473
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 1: but none from the very diplomats who have to work

474
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 1: with him to try and get a deal. First, why

475
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 1: was there not a push back from the diplomats? And second,

476
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: where does that leave us for getting a fossil fuel

477
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 1: phase out in the final community.

478
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 3: Well, first of all, there was pushback, I mean I

479
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 3: objected to it immediately, and one hundred and thirty elected officials,

480
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 3: primarily from Europe and the United States drafted and signed

481
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 3: a very powerful letter objecting to it. But the process

482
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 3: by which the leadership of these cops is selected is

483
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 3: itself in need of reform. It rotates between the different

484
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 3: regions of the world as they're defined by the United Nations,

485
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 3: and then there is a kind of competition between countries

486
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 3: in the region whose turn it is. The Republic of

487
00:33:56,320 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 3: Korea was the competition for the UAE. A lot of

488
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 3: deals were made between the UAE and career You aware

489
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 3: of that. Oh, you might look at the massive oil

490
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 3: storage facility placed by the UAE and South Korea, millions

491
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 3: of barrels, giving them first to purchase. You might look

492
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 3: at the massive investment fund established by the UE and

493
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 3: South Korea. You might look at the military training relationships

494
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 3: that were established. And I really and truly do not

495
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 3: know for a fact that all of those deals and

496
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 3: all of that money had anything to do with Korea's

497
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 3: surprising decision to withdraw from the competition and leave the

498
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 3: UAE as the only candidate. I do not know that.

499
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,359
Speaker 3: I do suspect that the Petro States, and they're not

500
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 3: the only ones, but the Petro States play these games

501
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 3: at a very high level look at the World Cup

502
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:58,760
Speaker 3: for football. Why is it that the day the surprising

503
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 3: change in the regional rotation was announced, only one country

504
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 3: was prepared with a bid. No one else knew it

505
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 3: was coming. In time, similar shenanigans take place in the

506
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 3: selection of who's going to host these cops, and once

507
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 3: the country is selected, then that country has the authority

508
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 3: to name the president of the COP. I believe that

509
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:28,320
Speaker 3: the UN Secretary General should share the authority for naming

510
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 3: the COP. Now the Secretary General doesn't want that authority,

511
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 3: and I'm sympathetic with his desire not to be involved

512
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 3: with it, but I think we have to change this process.

513
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 3: It's just not fit for purpose. We're now struggling. We

514
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 3: don't know where the next COP is going to be

515
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 3: because another petro state, Russia, has objected to country after

516
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 3: country in Eastern Europe. Maybe Serbia will emerge as an

517
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 3: acceptable host, and then after that is Brazil, which is

518
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 3: on site, and then perhaps Australia. I think that's the

519
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 3: favored candidate. With the Pacific Island nations.

520
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,319
Speaker 1: We're going into a period which is now less than

521
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 1: twelve months, when President Biden is likely to rerun for election,

522
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 1: probably against Donald Trump, and politics goes here and there.

523
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 1: You have the experience of that, but we also have

524
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: finite time shrinking time. If you don't get Joe Biden reelected,

525
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,839
Speaker 1: if you don't have a Democratic presidency, there is likely

526
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 1: going to be backsliding on climate probably pretty disastrous backsliding.

527
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,400
Speaker 1: What is it in the next twelve months that you

528
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 1: think the Democratic Party and President Biden needs to do

529
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 1: to ensure that he gets re elected.

530
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 3: Well, I should start by telling you that I am

531
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 3: a strong supporter of Joe Biden, and I think that

532
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 3: by any objective assessment, he's done a really good job

533
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 3: as president. But if you look at the pandemic and

534
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 3: the reorganization of supply chains, that s lasted a long

535
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 3: time in the wake of the pandemic and the inflation

536
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 3: that resulted. Inflation has come down dramatically, but the political

537
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 3: perception of inflation has a very long tail, and I

538
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 3: think that is one of the major reasons why he's

539
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,800
Speaker 3: not showing up as well as people like me would

540
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 3: like in the public opinion polls. It's also important to

541
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 3: say that a year away from the election, there have

542
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 3: been many in common presidents who were in this kind

543
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 3: of political shape in the polling and a year later

544
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 3: one reelection. But I'm not going to dodge your question, Oxshot.

545
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 3: It's a definite prospect that this election might not turn

546
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 3: out as most of us would like it to. And

547
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 3: what we should do in the meantime, those of us

548
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 3: like myself who are have at least one foot in

549
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 3: the political arena, needs to pull out all stops and

550
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 3: help oh Biden get realcted.

551
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 1: One of the initiatives you work on is Climate Trace.

552
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 1: It gives you information now much more granular on who

553
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:14,920
Speaker 1: are the people producing CO two emissions. You've got satellite measurement,

554
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: which means not many people can hide from this. But

555
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 1: you're also one who've said that facts alone don't change people.

556
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:27,319
Speaker 1: So how do you square the circle that, yes, we

557
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 1: do need more transparency, we need more data to make

558
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:34,399
Speaker 1: better decisions or convince more people about it. And yet,

559
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 1: if facts alone aren't going to convince people, why do

560
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 1: we pursue the path of getting more and more data

561
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:44,240
Speaker 1: to try and get people.

562
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 3: Well, let's put this in perspective. Why would a company

563
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 3: go to the Climate Trace database in search of lower

564
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 3: carbon emitting suppliers in their supply chain, not simply because

565
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 3: the facts are there, but it's important that the facts

566
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:09,439
Speaker 3: are there when they get pressure from their consumers, from

567
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:15,720
Speaker 3: their employees, from their executives, from the families of the executives,

568
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 3: from people all over the world who are increasingly aware

569
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 3: that we are in grave danger unless we sharply reduce

570
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 3: carbon emissions. So it's the combination of public, social, and

571
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:33,359
Speaker 3: economic pressure to get with the program and start being

572
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,360
Speaker 3: part of the solution to the climate crisis that makes

573
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:41,839
Speaker 3: these facts from Climate Trace valuable because the incentive to

574
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 3: use the facts is present because of activists, and this

575
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 3: is now the largest social movement in the history of

576
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 3: the world. There are young people and people of all

577
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 3: ages in every nation in the world. Some of the

578
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,919
Speaker 3: tatorships like North Korea, you don't see them as much,

579
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 3: but even there, I can tell you why. I know

580
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 3: that everywhere in the world there is rising pressure. We

581
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:18,839
Speaker 3: as human beings have many limitations, many weaknesses, many legacies

582
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:23,319
Speaker 3: of our long period of evolutionary development. We respond to

583
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 3: the threats that our ancient ancestors survived using our neocortex

584
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 3: and our reasoning capacity to communicate with one another about

585
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 3: more complex challenges and finding the solutions. So that takes time,

586
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 3: but we have the capacity to rise above our limitations.

587
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 3: And you know how, I know that we've done it

588
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 3: in the past, when the anti apartheid movement was successful,

589
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 3: the civil rights movement in my country, giving women the

590
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,800
Speaker 3: right to vote, Educating women didn't used.

591
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:56,400
Speaker 2: To be possible.

592
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:59,279
Speaker 3: Now sixty five percent of the college graduates in the

593
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:03,959
Speaker 3: UAE in Saudi Arabia are women. These social movements all

594
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:08,720
Speaker 3: have one thing in common. After the distractions are cleared

595
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 3: away and the central choice is revealed as a choice

596
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 3: between what's right and what's wrong, then at a very

597
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 3: deep level, the outcome becomes fore ordained because of who

598
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:25,239
Speaker 3: we are in our deepest core. And this climate crisis

599
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:30,320
Speaker 3: is now presenting us with an approaching political tipping point

600
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 3: where I'm convinced where we will have enough of a

601
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:36,919
Speaker 3: global consensus to take action.

602
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 1: Now, this has been a tremendous conversation. We've talked about

603
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,359
Speaker 1: a number of subjects anything to do with climate. Given

604
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 1: how many things it touches, we have to have a

605
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,359
Speaker 1: wide range in conversation. But I want to bring us

606
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 1: to a cluse. You speak to lots of people who

607
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:56,240
Speaker 1: are in power in places who can make real change happen.

608
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 1: When you think about what we need to do in

609
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:03,720
Speaker 1: the urgency that we have, what is in your mind

610
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:07,439
Speaker 1: the heuristic, which order of things would you bring up

611
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 1: with somebody that this, one, two, three are the things?

612
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 1: If we do them, we get this thing going faster

613
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 1: than we really need to.

614
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,400
Speaker 3: Right now, we're using the sky as an open sewer,

615
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 3: and our reckless spewing of heat trapping pollution into the

616
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:31,839
Speaker 3: sky is now causing these climate related horrific disasters to

617
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 3: be worse and worse and more intense and more frequent,

618
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,759
Speaker 3: and everybody knows it. If you want to change that,

619
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 3: if you want to say to our young people, you

620
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:44,279
Speaker 3: don't have to be depressed about the future, You don't

621
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 3: have to have a dark outlook. We have a mental

622
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 3: health crisis around the world now, partly because young people

623
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:56,240
Speaker 3: are losing hope. We need to restore hope. We need

624
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 3: to prove that we have the capacity as human beings

625
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 3: to save our future. And I always say that if

626
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:07,319
Speaker 3: you have any doubt that we as human beings have

627
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 3: the political will necessary to save ourselves, please remember that

628
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 3: political will is itself a renewable resource.

629
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 1: Thank you, Vice President.

630
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 3: Thank you Akshat.

631
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Zero. Apart from the podcast,

632
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:29,719
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633
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:32,920
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634
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635
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637
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Speaker 1: rate or review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Share this

639
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640
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,360
Speaker 1: You can get in touch at Zero pod at Bloomberg

641
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Speaker 1: dot net. Zero's producer is Oscar Boyd and senior producer

642
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643
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644
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