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Speaker 1: Pushkin Positive psychology, The field that studies the science of happiness,

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Speaker 1: has made a lot of progress in the last few decades,

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Speaker 1: so much so that we've only been able to scratch

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Speaker 1: the surface on all the cool studies out there. Even

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Speaker 1: in the hundreds of episodes I've hosted in the five

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Speaker 1: years of the show, we've spent time looking at the

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Speaker 1: positive effects of treating yourself better and being kind to others,

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Speaker 1: but we haven't talked as much about the happiness boost

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Speaker 1: we can get from getting out of our comfort zones

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Speaker 1: and taking on unfamiliar or even uncomfortable things. Some people

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Speaker 1: seem to love pushing these boundaries, you know the type,

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Speaker 1: someone who treks across an entire continent, sets up a

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Speaker 1: wildlife sanctuary, patents some new invention, and drops everything to

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Speaker 1: become a novelist. These people can seem larger than life,

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Speaker 1: but they do exist, and one expert in well being

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Speaker 1: science thinks we should pay more attention to them.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me on. Sorry, I'm

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Speaker 2: just running.

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Speaker 1: Out this stuff. Yeah, I really enjoyed the new book.

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Speaker 2: Oh thank you.

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Speaker 1: She gay Owishi teaches psychology at the University of Chicago,

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Speaker 1: and he's argued that past measures of happiness have missed

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Speaker 1: something really important, what he calls the psychologically rich life.

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Speaker 1: What is psychological richness?

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Speaker 2: Well?

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Speaker 1: She Gay explains this concept in his new book Life

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Speaker 1: in Three Dimensions, How curiosity, exploration, and experience make a fuller,

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Speaker 1: better life. She Gay's book explains that even if we

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Speaker 1: can't all become globe trotting and ventor poets who hang

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Speaker 1: out with movie stars, we can make some modest changes

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Speaker 1: to mix up our lives a bit. So get ready

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Speaker 1: to hear his strategies as she Gate teaches us how

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Speaker 1: to live the richest life possible. She Gay first began

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Speaker 1: thinking about psychological richness during about of mid career self reflection.

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Speaker 2: I studied happiness since nineteen ninety five. At the time,

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Speaker 2: there are very very few labs studying happiness, and we

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Speaker 2: did all kinds of studies about happy what makes people happy.

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Speaker 2: And in twenty fifteen, you know, at the time I

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Speaker 2: already had ten ure. I was for professor at the

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Speaker 2: University of Virginia, and it just hit me that, oh

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Speaker 2: my gosh, I've been studying happiness for twenty years. You know,

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Speaker 2: what do we learn and what was the biggest debate

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Speaker 2: in the field, and I have to say I was

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Speaker 2: really sort of sad to realize that we've been debating

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Speaker 2: this which way is more important personal happiness, to make

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Speaker 2: yourself happy, maybe even at the expense of others sometimes,

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Speaker 2: or to make others happy, even at the expense of oneself.

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Speaker 2: In the end, the result of this twenty years debate

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Speaker 2: was like, of course both are important, happiness and the meeting,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, wow, did I waste my twenty

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Speaker 2: years pursuing this question? But then the next question came up.

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Speaker 2: I'm not happy with my life and I was pretty

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Speaker 2: happy with my wife and kids, and I found my

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Speaker 2: life to be pretty mean for I mean, my social

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Speaker 2: psyde class was very popular, I played baseball with my kids.

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Speaker 2: I felt like I have some roles in the society.

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Speaker 2: But then when I asked this question of if I'm

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Speaker 2: happy and find my life to be meaningful, is it

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Speaker 2: a complete life? And at that point I couldn't say yes.

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Speaker 2: So when the semester started, I just ask students, what

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Speaker 2: do you think if you have happiness and meaning is

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Speaker 2: it a complete life? And a half of them were like,

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Speaker 2: of course, don't be so greedy. I mean, like that

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Speaker 2: that's a lot, but then the other half was like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: maybe something is missing, and we started to look at

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Speaker 2: those missing parts and also the reverse that somebody who

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Speaker 2: doesn't feel their life is happy or meaningful, but maybe

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Speaker 2: still leading good life. And in the end we were

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Speaker 2: able to find a lot of examples of that, like

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Speaker 2: Oliver Sacks Life or Anthony bou Ding. We decided to

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Speaker 2: call this a psychological rich life. So my book is

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Speaker 2: entitled Life in Three Dimensions. So we got the first dimension,

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Speaker 2: which is happiness, and the second dimension, which is a

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Speaker 2: meaningful life, and the third dimension, we think is a

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Speaker 2: psychologically rich life. And essentially, even if you don't have

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Speaker 2: happiness or meaning, perhaps there is a third good life.

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Speaker 2: And if you have happiness and meaning, then richness will

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Speaker 2: add something. And you got it all you lived in

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Speaker 2: three dimensions. So that's the basic trends.

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Speaker 1: I love that. And so in the book, you started

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Speaker 1: with this comparison between your life and your dad's life.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you're comfortable sharing that story.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So my dad is nineteen years old. He was

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Speaker 2: born and raised in this small town in southern island

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Speaker 2: of Qusha. Like his father, grandfather, great grandfathers and all

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Speaker 2: the ancestors. He essentially became a full time bomber when

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Speaker 2: he was fifteen, and he lived his life in the

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Speaker 2: same town, surrounded by the same people he grew up with.

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Speaker 2: He got married when he was twenty seven. He still

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Speaker 2: lived with my mom, and he loved life on the farm.

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Speaker 2: He loves hot Springs, so he goes to Hot Springs

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Speaker 2: with his wife and family friends and it's a really

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Speaker 2: cozy life. And meanwhile, I was born to the same

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Speaker 2: family obviously, so I was expected to take over the farm.

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Speaker 2: But from early on I show no interest in farming. Indeed,

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Speaker 2: I hated it. So I knew from early on I

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Speaker 2: got to get out of here. As soon as I

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Speaker 2: graduated from high school, I left my hometown for Tokyo,

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Speaker 2: which is like seven hundred miles away, so very very

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Speaker 2: few people from my high school went to Tokyo. So

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Speaker 2: my dad and mom like, when they said, yeah, you

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Speaker 2: can go to college, I think they were expecting me

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Speaker 2: to stay in that region because there are a lot

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Speaker 2: of good college there too, But just I left as

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Speaker 2: far as I can, as quickly as I can. After

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Speaker 2: graduating from college, I got my first job in Minnesota,

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Speaker 2: moved to Virginia, moved to New York City, went back

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Speaker 2: to Virginia, and moved again to Chicauggle. So you know,

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Speaker 2: if my dad's life is life of stability, familiarity, tradition,

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Speaker 2: probably my life is complete opposite, constant move, move, move,

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Speaker 2: on the go. You know, sometimes I really feel like, wow,

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Speaker 2: why did I do this? You know, like I could

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Speaker 2: have just stay there, hubsake every night, chat with my

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Speaker 2: old friends, And indeed, I think that's a good life.

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Speaker 2: My dad doesn't have much regret, is very content, but yeah,

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Speaker 2: it is very, very, very different.

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Speaker 1: And so I love that story because it so nicely

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Speaker 1: illustrates the sort of distinction of a psychologically rich life.

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Speaker 1: But I want to start by unpacking the sort of

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Speaker 1: first two ideas of my happiness and that we've sort

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Speaker 1: of had so far. The first is this idea of happiness,

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Speaker 1: maybe just going to give me a sense of what

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Speaker 1: we mean by happiness, like or like scholars mean by this.

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Speaker 2: Right, So we don't mean happiness by the just a mood,

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Speaker 2: temporary mood, but it is really about whether you're happy

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Speaker 2: about your life, how it's going, how it has turned out.

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Speaker 2: So it's very similar to a sense of satisfaction with

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Speaker 2: your life, and it turned out that a lot of

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Speaker 2: factors that are associated with happiness are something to do

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Speaker 2: with the stable life. So stable relationship is the number

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Speaker 2: one predictor of happy life. So close relationship with your friend, family, mairit,

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Speaker 2: or satisfaction a partner satisfaction is extremely important. And more

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Speaker 2: and more, the financial securities and stability is very very important.

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Speaker 2: So this is kind of interesting. Back in nineteen ninety five,

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Speaker 2: correlation between household income and happiness a life satisfaction was

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Speaker 2: like zero point one five, which is not that strong,

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Speaker 2: But we looked at historically it last fifteen years or

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Speaker 2: so from the nineteen seventy saves, and we see the

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Speaker 2: correlation going up. So financial stability is very very important.

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Speaker 2: That actually means that a lot of people are financially struggling,

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Speaker 2: a lot of people have relationship issues, so happiness has

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Speaker 2: become sort of out of reach for them. So that's

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Speaker 2: another reason why I thought maybe there is another way

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Speaker 2: to conceptualize a good life that doesn't rely on this

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Speaker 2: sort of life of stabilities and comfort.

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Speaker 1: You've also argued that we sometimes face what you've called

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Speaker 1: the happiness trap. Yeah, that when we focus on certain

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Speaker 1: aspects of happiness, we get it wrong. What are the

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Speaker 1: parts of this happiness trap?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think happiness trap is particularly serient phenomenon in

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Speaker 2: the United States. So when you ask Americans, what do

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Speaker 2: you associate when you hear the word happiness, People often

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Speaker 2: talk about success or reward for all hard work. So

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Speaker 2: when you equate happiness with success, then when you're not happy,

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Speaker 2: you're failing. And this is really unfortunate. And this is

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Speaker 2: something as a cultural site was just I found very

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Speaker 2: puzzling too. When I came to the United States. I

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Speaker 2: asked frand how are you, and everybody say great. In Japan,

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Speaker 2: when somebody said how are you, I say, okay, so so,

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Speaker 2: and the conversation goes, yeah, me too. It's like we commiserate,

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Speaker 2: and that's the cultural lam. So there is no pressure

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Speaker 2: to be happy. Especially when you're not feeling happy, you

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Speaker 2: can say I'm not happy. But in the state, especially

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Speaker 2: college students, maybe elite college students in particular at your

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Speaker 2: institution like Yale, I think there's a tremendous pressure to

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Speaker 2: feel happy. And what I mean by happiness trap is

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Speaker 2: that people think that because happiness is an indicator of success,

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Speaker 2: I shouldn't be feeling these negative emotions, and that's the

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Speaker 2: really the difficult and dangerous part of this trap. Stuff

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Speaker 2: happens to everyone, right, that events happen to the good people,

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Speaker 2: And when things happen, if you don't have this pressure

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Speaker 2: to feel happy, you are just much more naturally accepting

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Speaker 2: of this particular minor bump in the world, Whereas if

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Speaker 2: you feel like you have to be perfect, you have

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Speaker 2: to be successful, you have to be happy all the time,

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Speaker 2: then you really ruminate these little failures, and rumination, of course,

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Speaker 2: is the precursor to depression. So that's what I mean

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Speaker 2: by happiness tramp.

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Speaker 1: So that's just kind of solely going for this idea

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Speaker 1: of happiness is or feeling good in your life doesn't work.

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Speaker 1: But you've also argued that seeking meaning might not go

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Speaker 1: as smoothly as we often assume, either, that there might

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Speaker 1: be some challenges with seeking out a meaningful life too.

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Speaker 2: What do you mean, Yeah, so any graduation speech you

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Speaker 2: hear is like, be great, go out there and change

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Speaker 2: the world. You guys are so smart, which is true,

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Speaker 2: But when you think about somebody who changed the world,

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Speaker 2: Martin Luther King, Junior Rosa Park Gandhi, Sure can I

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Speaker 2: do that probably not. I think when we think about

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Speaker 2: the meaningful life, we often think about somebody who made

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Speaker 2: a huge difference, and I think that will set yourself

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Speaker 2: up for the failure that you are not leading a

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Speaker 2: meaningful life. So that's one part. But the other part

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Speaker 2: is that if you look at the people who are

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Speaker 2: actually reporting that they are leaning a meaningful life, they

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Speaker 2: are not making that kind of differences. They're really focusing

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Speaker 2: on their neighborhood, their churches and things that is small,

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Speaker 2: and they can go to soup kitchen every Thursday and serve,

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Speaker 2: and of course you do that over the years, then

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Speaker 2: you make a difference in your communities, which has no

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Speaker 2: bad consequences at all, just that the study sometimes find

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Speaker 2: that the people who say their life is meaningful, they

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Speaker 2: tend also to say that they endorsed right wing authoritarianism,

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Speaker 2: not just a political conservatives. That type of right wing

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Speaker 2: authoritarianism comes with a very small in group whom you

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Speaker 2: take care very carefully, but sometimes show huge antagonism against

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Speaker 2: the outgroup members. So when I say there is a

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Speaker 2: meaning trap, one is that it seems so grand that

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Speaker 2: it seems impossible to achieve. But the second one is

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Speaker 2: actually we tend to go too narrow and focus on

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Speaker 2: the wellbeing of the close others, but we often neglect

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Speaker 2: outgroup members, so that could be potentially dangerous.

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Speaker 1: So there's some danger in seeking out happiness. There's some

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Speaker 1: danger in seeking out a life of meaning if you

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Speaker 1: kind of get it wrong. One of the studies you

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Speaker 1: point to, which I think is fun, is sort of

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Speaker 1: asking subjects about the psychologically much life.

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Speaker 2: So early on, when we just studied psychological richness research,

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Speaker 2: we really wanted to see like what might be psychological

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Speaker 2: rich event. So to a group of students, I ask, okay,

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Speaker 2: what did you do over the weekend? What makes you happy?

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Speaker 2: And then say things like, yeah, I went to my

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Speaker 2: favorite restaurant. Yeah. Sure, going to a favorite restaurant, you

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Speaker 2: know exactly what to order. That's the predictable, reliable joy

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Speaker 2: and happiness. So I asked, then what was the meaningful event?

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Speaker 2: And a lot of people said, oh, I went to

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Speaker 2: church and he felt meaningful. And some said I helped

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Speaker 2: out my friends who was just struggling writing a paper,

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Speaker 2: which makes sense because making other people happy is an

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Speaker 2: important part of the meaningful. So I asked, then, what

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Speaker 2: was the events where you felt psychologically rich. What I

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Speaker 2: mean by psychological rich here is that in my not

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Speaker 2: have been happy event or meaningful event per se, but

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Speaker 2: something different, something unusual, something novel. One person, Rachel said,

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Speaker 2: there was this guy typing something half naked, and I've

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Speaker 2: never seen a guy typing in public area, like shirtless.

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Speaker 2: And the strange thing was it wasn't hard. He wasn't

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Speaker 2: well built, so he wasn't showing off his upper body

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Speaker 2: or anything, and that was kind of interesting. She said, Okay,

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Speaker 2: so there was a novelty, but I thought that's not

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Speaker 2: really rich. And then another person said, oh, I went

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Speaker 2: to professional wrestling much, and she was so surprised that

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Speaker 2: there are so many kids. And then later she learned

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Speaker 2: the WWE does a lot of anti bulling campaign and

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Speaker 2: for them these sort of ridiculous looking pro wrestler is

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Speaker 2: actually genuinely their role model hero. And then she went

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Speaker 2: through this up and down, you know, emotions and came

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Speaker 2: back with a totally different view of professional wrestling. They

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Speaker 2: thought that was sort of the working class thing to do,

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Speaker 2: and they went and then they were really moved, and

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Speaker 2: then there still a typical view of the pro wrestlers

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Speaker 2: completely got shattered. So I thought Okay, this is not

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Speaker 2: just a novel experience but pretty complex, a lot of

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Speaker 2: different emotions, and also came back with a different perspective.

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Speaker 2: So I think in order for some event to be

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Speaker 2: psychologically rich, it has to be not just interesting, but

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Speaker 2: it has to come with some kind of change and

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Speaker 2: perspective change in particular. So the shressless guy is not

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Speaker 2: really rich because it didn't change the way you view

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Speaker 2: the world at all, whereas the latter case is really

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Speaker 2: just wow, I didn't expect this, and I need to

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Speaker 2: change my view about this.

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Speaker 1: You kind of give me a definition of this sort

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Speaker 1: of third way of experiencing life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. We define psychologically rich life as a life

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Speaker 2: filled with diverse, interesting experiences, and that often comes with

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Speaker 2: the change in perspective. So I often contrast with the

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Speaker 2: materially rich life. Lots of cash, a lot of assets,

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Speaker 2: a lot of things. That's the material richness. What about

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Speaker 2: the psychological richness. It is all about accumulation of interesting

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Speaker 2: experiences or stories that you can tell. So in your

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Speaker 2: psycho bank, you have lots of interesting experiences and stories

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Speaker 2: to tell to others, whereas if this person doesn't have

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Speaker 2: that many interesting stories to tell, then even if their

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Speaker 2: bank account is huge, maybe psychologically speaking, they're impublished.

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Speaker 1: So how common is living a psychologically rich life? Fire call?

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Speaker 1: You study this in a pretty clever way?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that was the questions. And if nobody

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Speaker 2: these psychological rich life, what are we studying? So we

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Speaker 2: were a little bit worried. So in one study we

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Speaker 2: just decided to look at the New York Times obituariest Essentially,

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Speaker 2: I love reading obitualies and obitually I think it's a

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Speaker 2: really great summary of how somebody lived their lives. You know,

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Speaker 2: New York Times always have three or four obitualies every day.

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Speaker 2: So I hired three research assistants and their assignment was

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Speaker 2: read New York Times obitually every day and then rate

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Speaker 2: each person's life in terms of happiness, meaning and psychological richness.

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Speaker 2: And they don't know what I'm trying to look at,

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Speaker 2: I mean, blind to hypothesis. So in the end we

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Speaker 2: figured out roughly there were thirty two percent essentially all

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Speaker 2: the people who raided as somebody who led the happy life,

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Speaker 2: another thirty two led meaningful life, and then the fifteen

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Speaker 2: of them led psychological rich life. Some people that happy

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Speaker 2: and the meaningful life, some people that happy and the

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Speaker 2: psychological rich, and two of them got it all. They

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Speaker 2: were raided as happy, meaningful, and the psychological rich life.

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Speaker 2: So we did this in Charlesville local newspaper Daily Progress.

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Speaker 2: The number of people who were raided to have let

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Speaker 2: the rich life went down to about five percent, which

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Speaker 2: could be due to like New York Times people are

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Speaker 2: sort of very famous people, prominent people. They had more

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Speaker 2: dramatic life than the ordinly Central Virginians maybe, But another

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Speaker 2: possibility was that New York Times obitual is a lot

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Speaker 2: more detailed, whereas the local one is very factual and small,

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Speaker 2: So it could be just the information. So we need

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Speaker 2: the third study in Singapore, and in Singapore something like

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Speaker 2: thirty five percent of them were rated as leading psychological

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Speaker 2: ridge life. But I'm pretty confident that non trivial number

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Speaker 2: of people do lead cyclo sciar ridge life.

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Speaker 1: If you're not currently among that non trivial number of

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Speaker 1: people but want to live more richly, she Gay will

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Speaker 1: guide you with his top tips right after the break

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Speaker 1: Psychologists she Gay Owishi has argued that there's something many

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Speaker 1: of us have missed in our quest to live a

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Speaker 1: happier life. We need to find a bit more psychological richness.

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Speaker 1: But what if you listened to the first part of

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Speaker 1: this episode and thought, hey, my life isn't nearly as

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Speaker 1: rich as it could be. What should you do about it?

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Speaker 2: Personally, I think the best way is to find mind,

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Speaker 2: the open friend, the friend who will bring you to

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Speaker 2: new experiences. So I mention, if your friend is Samantha

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Speaker 2: from Sex and the City, then you don't have to

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Speaker 2: have an openness to experience. She would just drug you

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Speaker 2: to interesting experiences. And if you're an agreeable person, then

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Speaker 2: whenever your friends say, hey, Laurie, do you want to

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Speaker 2: try these new restaurants? Do you want to go to hike?

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Speaker 2: And you just say okay, and then you just try.

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Speaker 2: You might not do it yourself, but you know, if

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Speaker 2: somebody else says do it, you do it. But if

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Speaker 2: you don't have friends like that, then I mean there

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Speaker 2: are other options. For instance, I think the biggest one

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Speaker 2: is be like. Playfulness is I think the huge part

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Speaker 2: of leading a psychological ridge life. Actually, as an adult, I

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Speaker 2: think it's quite hard to be playful. Playfulness you have

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Speaker 2: to take a vacation from your obligations and responsibility of

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Speaker 2: daily life, from social and economic reality. And that's when

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Speaker 2: you can be playful and be the rich life.

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Speaker 1: We also argue that playfulness can help us too in

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Speaker 1: ways we don't expect. For example, you've argued that playfulness

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Speaker 1: can help protect us from burnout. What are some studies

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Speaker 1: that tell us.

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Speaker 2: That, yeah, I mean, there is this amazing meta analysis

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Speaker 2: about athletic performance among these super elite athletes. So we

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Speaker 2: are talking about Olympic level athletes, and you know, some

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Speaker 2: people start out pretty early and specialize in one sport,

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Speaker 2: whereas other people play multiple sports before specializing. And the

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Speaker 2: really interesting finding from there is that if you look

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Speaker 2: at the junior level competitions, then the performance is really

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Speaker 2: predicted by how early somebody specialized. But when you look

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Speaker 2: at the final Olympic level competition performance, then it's people

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Speaker 2: who play multiple sports and specialize later in life they

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Speaker 2: do better. And this playfulness is that world class athlete

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Speaker 2: who play some pickup games and some other sports for fun,

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Speaker 2: I mean, those other people who tend not to burn

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Speaker 2: out and tend to do better. And the crazy thing

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Speaker 2: is that there is a replication in the scientific achievement

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Speaker 2: as well. So highest German scientific award is Leibnitz Awards.

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Speaker 2: And some of them went on to win Nobel Prize.

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Speaker 2: So German researcher looked at the difference between eventual Nobel

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Speaker 2: Prize winners versus Livelitz winners, and this is absolutely my

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Speaker 2: favorite finding that Likelitz winners became full professor much earlier

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Speaker 2: than the Nobel Prize winner, the Nobel Prize winners actually

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Speaker 2: study multiple things before and so it took them much

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Speaker 2: longer to get the full professorship, but eventually they made

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Speaker 2: a major discovery. So I did a playfulness even in

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Speaker 2: the professional arena is really important because you don't want

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Speaker 2: to be two specialized too early. Keep your curiosity wide

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Speaker 2: open because when you just specialize, what you're doing is okay,

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Speaker 2: this information is irrelevant for me, so don't pay attention.

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Speaker 2: Whereas if you are open, then you're just oh, that's

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Speaker 2: kind of interesting, and sometimes you help.

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Speaker 1: So that's kind of embracing playfulness. Your second tip, I

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Speaker 1: think is very related is that we need to embrace

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Speaker 1: serendipity and spontaneous Yeah. What do you mean by serendipity there?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So serendipity and the spontaneity I think is the

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Speaker 2: springboard of interesting experiences and if you think about, like,

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Speaker 2: all the interesting experiences you had, probably those are not

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Speaker 2: the things you planned six months in advance. In graduate school,

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Speaker 2: for instance, we don't have that many required courses, so

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Speaker 2: we had a lot of time. So I would just

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Speaker 2: stop by my lave made office. Let's go have coffee,

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Speaker 2: and we talk something random and interesting and there is

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Speaker 2: some discovery of certain things, so very interesting. And when

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Speaker 2: I got a job at the University of Minnesota, I

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Speaker 2: really wanted to do the same thing. So I knocked

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Speaker 2: on the door Bob Krueger, fellow assistant professor, and I said, hey, Bob,

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Speaker 2: do you have time for coffee, And then looked through

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Speaker 2: his schedule and said, no, what about in two weeks

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Speaker 2: we can all have this cup of coffee spontaneously. And

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Speaker 2: that's what it means to be a professor. Bob became

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Speaker 2: like so successful. He's very productive. I think he wrote

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Speaker 2: already three hundred articles, so you see how that works.

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Speaker 2: But at the same time, in terms of this spontaneous

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Speaker 2: random conversations or experiences, when you just schedule and plan everything,

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Speaker 2: you really are depriving from these random things to happen,

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Speaker 2: random encountering, random conversation, random reading. So over scheduled life

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Speaker 2: that we all live right now is really no great

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Speaker 2: for psychological richness.

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Speaker 1: This is something I work a lot about in my

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Speaker 1: elite college students that I work with, because they want

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Speaker 1: to overschedule everything. You know, it's from early in high school.

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Speaker 1: They have already planned what job they want. Some students

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Speaker 1: are like, well, I definitely want to get married by

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Speaker 1: the time I'm twenty seven. Like they want to have

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Speaker 1: everything planned out, and I really worry that they might

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Speaker 1: be leaving some important aspects of their well being kind

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Speaker 1: of uncared for. They haven't given themselves the space to

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Speaker 1: try new things out exactly.

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Speaker 2: That's the space and that I think that's the pressure.

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Speaker 2: They feel like they have to succeed. They have to perform,

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Speaker 2: and they have to perform at the highest level all

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Speaker 2: the time. And it's like academic athletes almost like just practice, practice,

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Speaker 2: practice every day, and I think that is really not healthy.

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Speaker 2: You should really have plenty of time for play. College

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Speaker 2: is the best time to be spontaneous. Once you go

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Speaker 2: out of college, your friends don't live around the corner.

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Speaker 2: Everybody is too busy to just have spontaneous meeting in outing.

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Speaker 1: But you've argued that we really even as adults need

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Speaker 1: to find more time to be able to define that.

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Speaker 1: Any advice for how to build that serendividio, well, I think.

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Speaker 2: You have to be a little bit pushy. Just text

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Speaker 2: somebody and just accept a lot of rejections. You know

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Speaker 2: they you do it, Okay, Next, it is really hard

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Speaker 2: when everybody is so overbooked, but we should we should

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Speaker 2: try to be spontaneous.

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Speaker 1: So tip number three that you've talked a lot about

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Speaker 1: is something that we've mentioned before on the Happiness Lab.

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Speaker 1: If we want to live a psychologically rich life, we

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Speaker 1: need to find more talk about how all plays into

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Speaker 1: psychological richness.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think all is really this sense of your

432
00:25:50,276 --> 00:25:54,276
Speaker 2: small and the world is so large and just sort

433
00:25:54,276 --> 00:25:58,316
Speaker 2: of transcending kind of sense and then emerging between you

434
00:25:58,596 --> 00:26:02,036
Speaker 2: and the nature or the arts, and a lot of

435
00:26:02,236 --> 00:26:05,996
Speaker 2: esthetic experiences that we have when we go to a museum,

436
00:26:06,436 --> 00:26:11,716
Speaker 2: when we go watch movies, read literatures and poems. It's

437
00:26:11,756 --> 00:26:16,796
Speaker 2: not always all, but there is these esthetic experiences that

438
00:26:16,916 --> 00:26:20,556
Speaker 2: is very different from our everyday life. So if you

439
00:26:20,636 --> 00:26:24,236
Speaker 2: read Coslo Shigurus The Remains of the Day, then you

440
00:26:24,436 --> 00:26:29,956
Speaker 2: transported into this world of British Lord Lord Darlington in

441
00:26:30,156 --> 00:26:34,276
Speaker 2: Darlington Hall with butlers and the twenty some stuff members

442
00:26:34,356 --> 00:26:37,356
Speaker 2: and you know, in the nineteen thirties and those kinds

443
00:26:37,396 --> 00:26:42,836
Speaker 2: of immersions and the mental transportation I think is really

444
00:26:43,156 --> 00:26:46,756
Speaker 2: really important because look at our lives, right, we are

445
00:26:46,956 --> 00:26:50,836
Speaker 2: privileged to travel anywhere we want. But every day we

446
00:26:50,916 --> 00:26:54,716
Speaker 2: get up, eat breakfast, usually just meet the same people,

447
00:26:55,236 --> 00:26:58,836
Speaker 2: respond emails, et cetera, et cetera. So every day what

448
00:26:58,956 --> 00:27:03,116
Speaker 2: we can experience firsthand is pretty limited. Whereas in a

449
00:27:03,156 --> 00:27:06,316
Speaker 2: matter of one hour, if you read these novels or

450
00:27:06,356 --> 00:27:10,396
Speaker 2: watch movie two hours or whatever, you can really experience

451
00:27:10,796 --> 00:27:17,516
Speaker 2: somebody else's life and go through really dramatic emotional experiences icariously.

452
00:27:18,116 --> 00:27:21,036
Speaker 2: So for the matter of a few hours, you often

453
00:27:21,076 --> 00:27:24,556
Speaker 2: go through somebody's entire life. And the guy who owns

454
00:27:24,636 --> 00:27:28,996
Speaker 2: this bookstore in Morocco said he read four thousand books,

455
00:27:29,076 --> 00:27:32,156
Speaker 2: so he says he lived four thousand lives. And that's

456
00:27:32,236 --> 00:27:37,356
Speaker 2: exactly how I feel about these esthetic experiences that really

457
00:27:37,476 --> 00:27:41,156
Speaker 2: expand your horizons and allow you to go through and

458
00:27:41,316 --> 00:27:44,556
Speaker 2: experience something that you can never maybe very hard to

459
00:27:44,636 --> 00:27:45,676
Speaker 2: experience in person.

460
00:27:46,156 --> 00:27:48,676
Speaker 1: And so that's kind of finding more all through aesthetic

461
00:27:48,716 --> 00:27:51,836
Speaker 1: experiences in other people's lives. But your tip Moore before

462
00:27:51,956 --> 00:27:55,076
Speaker 1: argues that we should also explore more ourselves, that we

463
00:27:55,116 --> 00:27:59,196
Speaker 1: should be seeking out new experiences and doing more atypical things. Sure,

464
00:27:59,476 --> 00:28:01,396
Speaker 1: any ideas for how to fit that in in a

465
00:28:01,396 --> 00:28:02,076
Speaker 1: busy life.

466
00:28:02,276 --> 00:28:05,796
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think that if you have commute, then

467
00:28:06,236 --> 00:28:10,156
Speaker 2: I think the change in your commute is really interesting way.

468
00:28:10,356 --> 00:28:13,716
Speaker 2: I mean, if you're driving, just drive through different town,

469
00:28:13,916 --> 00:28:17,956
Speaker 2: different neighborhood. If you're taking train, get off in between

470
00:28:18,196 --> 00:28:20,556
Speaker 2: and explore. So I think there are a lot of

471
00:28:20,676 --> 00:28:23,956
Speaker 2: things you can do to do new things, even if

472
00:28:23,956 --> 00:28:28,556
Speaker 2: you're pifty packed in you know, schedules and I you know,

473
00:28:28,716 --> 00:28:32,396
Speaker 2: try to enjoy, for instance, getting lost in a new town.

474
00:28:32,756 --> 00:28:35,436
Speaker 2: You know, it's a little bit scary, but you know,

475
00:28:35,476 --> 00:28:38,636
Speaker 2: I always tell myself, well, okay, eventually this will be

476
00:28:38,676 --> 00:28:41,316
Speaker 2: a psychological rich experience. Of course, when you get lost,

477
00:28:41,316 --> 00:28:44,596
Speaker 2: you worry, i'mous and soul forth. But most of the

478
00:28:44,636 --> 00:28:47,356
Speaker 2: time you will work out. And those are things sort

479
00:28:47,356 --> 00:28:50,076
Speaker 2: of like you let yourself go, go with a flow.

480
00:28:50,556 --> 00:28:54,116
Speaker 2: Those attitudes and mindset helps a lot in terms of

481
00:28:54,316 --> 00:28:58,156
Speaker 2: deviating from your routines and the schedules. And of course

482
00:28:58,156 --> 00:29:00,796
Speaker 2: we cannot deviate all the time, but when there is

483
00:29:00,836 --> 00:29:04,796
Speaker 2: a chance to be able to deviate. Just let yourself

484
00:29:04,876 --> 00:29:08,036
Speaker 2: go and deviate. That's what I want anybody to do

485
00:29:08,196 --> 00:29:08,796
Speaker 2: if possible.

486
00:29:09,116 --> 00:29:11,516
Speaker 1: It's also a nice reminder of your final tip, which

487
00:29:11,556 --> 00:29:15,516
Speaker 1: is that we can experience more psychological richness by turning

488
00:29:15,596 --> 00:29:19,356
Speaker 1: adversity into a psychological rich experience, into a fun story.

489
00:29:19,556 --> 00:29:19,636
Speaker 2: Right.

490
00:29:19,796 --> 00:29:22,356
Speaker 1: Explain why our stories are more under our control, you.

491
00:29:22,276 --> 00:29:25,116
Speaker 2: Know, because I grew up in Japan, and Japan, of

492
00:29:25,156 --> 00:29:28,956
Speaker 2: course has a lot of natural disasters earthquake, tsunami and

493
00:29:28,996 --> 00:29:32,196
Speaker 2: things like that. I studied happiness and wellbeing of these

494
00:29:32,316 --> 00:29:38,116
Speaker 2: earthquake survivors, and my sabbatical in twenty thirteen, I spent

495
00:29:38,236 --> 00:29:41,356
Speaker 2: one year in Kobe, Japan. That's where there was a

496
00:29:41,556 --> 00:29:45,916
Speaker 2: huge earthquake in nineteen ninety five. Over six thousand people died.

497
00:29:46,116 --> 00:29:49,996
Speaker 2: That was just devastating. And the sad finding was that

498
00:29:50,036 --> 00:29:55,156
Speaker 2: in twenty eleven, even sixteen years after the earthquake, those

499
00:29:55,436 --> 00:30:00,876
Speaker 2: Kobe residents who lost their house, we're still repoorting significantly

500
00:30:00,996 --> 00:30:05,916
Speaker 2: lower level of life satisfaction. They report more physical symptoms,

501
00:30:06,076 --> 00:30:09,836
Speaker 2: you know, pain than those Kobe residents who did not

502
00:30:09,956 --> 00:30:13,756
Speaker 2: lose their house. So I thought that was really sad

503
00:30:13,916 --> 00:30:17,756
Speaker 2: because we thought, you know, time heals everything, but this case,

504
00:30:17,836 --> 00:30:21,276
Speaker 2: time did not heal everything. But then we looked at

505
00:30:21,316 --> 00:30:26,156
Speaker 2: the value orientations of these earthquake survivor and we realized

506
00:30:26,196 --> 00:30:30,156
Speaker 2: that the people who went through earthquake, they really become

507
00:30:30,236 --> 00:30:34,276
Speaker 2: more pro social, autruistic. They don't care about their own

508
00:30:34,356 --> 00:30:39,356
Speaker 2: accomplishment as much as other Japanese who did not experience earthquake.

509
00:30:39,716 --> 00:30:44,796
Speaker 2: So definitely there's change. After all, when you are in earthquake,

510
00:30:45,276 --> 00:30:47,556
Speaker 2: you really see a lot of things that you never

511
00:30:47,836 --> 00:30:52,076
Speaker 2: imagined before. Neighbors who are not particularly friendly will come

512
00:30:52,116 --> 00:30:55,196
Speaker 2: out and try to save you and save your dog,

513
00:30:55,476 --> 00:30:58,756
Speaker 2: and you see a lot of different side of people.

514
00:30:58,956 --> 00:31:02,636
Speaker 2: So those people survivors all talk about like sort of

515
00:31:02,636 --> 00:31:06,796
Speaker 2: that regained sense of confidence in humanity even and I

516
00:31:06,916 --> 00:31:11,596
Speaker 2: think that's the contributing fact to psychological richness. Even if

517
00:31:11,676 --> 00:31:16,236
Speaker 2: the earthquake doesn't add to life satisfaction, obviously, that detract

518
00:31:16,356 --> 00:31:20,556
Speaker 2: from life satisfactions and meaning is also very hard to

519
00:31:20,916 --> 00:31:24,076
Speaker 2: gain from earthquake because this is a random act of

520
00:31:24,156 --> 00:31:27,876
Speaker 2: the modern nature. So people often struggle to find the

521
00:31:27,996 --> 00:31:33,076
Speaker 2: meaning after earthquake. But people have used this earthquake as

522
00:31:33,116 --> 00:31:38,476
Speaker 2: a springboard for change and growth and learning and I

523
00:31:38,476 --> 00:31:41,236
Speaker 2: think there are a lot of signs that some adversity

524
00:31:41,356 --> 00:31:43,876
Speaker 2: could be a source for psychological rich life.

525
00:31:43,876 --> 00:31:47,196
Speaker 1: Any suggestions for changing maybe some of our less than

526
00:31:47,236 --> 00:31:50,316
Speaker 1: earthquake level adversity into psychologicality.

527
00:31:50,436 --> 00:31:53,356
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we ask college students just just think about

528
00:31:53,396 --> 00:31:56,676
Speaker 2: all last year and what kind of traumatic event negative

529
00:31:56,716 --> 00:32:02,116
Speaker 2: event happened, and did you learn anything from this traumatic event? Interestingly,

530
00:32:02,196 --> 00:32:06,356
Speaker 2: this was random assignment, they later reported them. Yeah, actually

531
00:32:06,476 --> 00:32:10,236
Speaker 2: trauma made them change the way they view the world

532
00:32:10,316 --> 00:32:14,876
Speaker 2: and they view themselves. And the more perspective change they recorded,

533
00:32:15,316 --> 00:32:20,276
Speaker 2: the higher level of psychloscovichiness they reported as well. And interestingly,

534
00:32:20,436 --> 00:32:24,476
Speaker 2: the more perspective change they reported less happy day you can.

535
00:32:24,716 --> 00:32:28,116
Speaker 2: So the perspective change is not great for happiness, but

536
00:32:28,476 --> 00:32:31,716
Speaker 2: that tend to add psychoscurvichess. So it doesn't have to

537
00:32:31,716 --> 00:32:36,196
Speaker 2: be a huge trauma in earthquake tsunami type situation. But

538
00:32:36,356 --> 00:32:41,556
Speaker 2: even you know everyday failures and negative events, if you

539
00:32:41,716 --> 00:32:45,436
Speaker 2: can construe something positive or something that you learned from

540
00:32:45,476 --> 00:32:49,396
Speaker 2: the events, that could add the texture to your life

541
00:32:49,836 --> 00:32:51,356
Speaker 2: and enrich your life.

542
00:32:51,436 --> 00:32:54,876
Speaker 1: And it does seem like that texture isn't always psychologically positive.

543
00:32:54,996 --> 00:32:58,636
Speaker 1: You've talked about even things like exploring and getting lost,

544
00:32:58,876 --> 00:33:02,076
Speaker 1: or having an experience that maybe challenges you and maybe

545
00:33:02,796 --> 00:33:05,156
Speaker 1: changes some of your assumptions. Right, it sounds like the

546
00:33:05,156 --> 00:33:08,156
Speaker 1: big message of a psychologically rich life is like it

547
00:33:08,236 --> 00:33:11,076
Speaker 1: might be a little hard than you expect, the rewards

548
00:33:11,156 --> 00:33:12,636
Speaker 1: might be bigger than you expect.

549
00:33:12,836 --> 00:33:17,396
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, definitely. This is not something easy always and

550
00:33:17,916 --> 00:33:22,356
Speaker 2: not always positive obviously. But I think the power of

551
00:33:22,596 --> 00:33:27,156
Speaker 2: psychological rich life or that mindset to try to maximize richness,

552
00:33:27,356 --> 00:33:30,956
Speaker 2: is that you're not afraid of negative emotions and negative events.

553
00:33:31,156 --> 00:33:34,996
Speaker 2: Stuff happens, try to accept those, try to learn from it,

554
00:33:35,236 --> 00:33:38,236
Speaker 2: and as long as you have that attitude, you don't

555
00:33:38,436 --> 00:33:42,956
Speaker 2: get into these ruminations and depressions. And it is when

556
00:33:42,996 --> 00:33:46,516
Speaker 2: you really try to be perfect and try to be

557
00:33:46,596 --> 00:33:51,316
Speaker 2: super successful and always happy, that these little bumps really

558
00:33:51,716 --> 00:33:54,916
Speaker 2: hurts you. So I am really trying to say that

559
00:33:55,596 --> 00:33:59,276
Speaker 2: richness is not for everybody, for sure, But when you

560
00:33:59,356 --> 00:34:03,596
Speaker 2: have richness mindset, I think you're less afraid of failures

561
00:34:03,716 --> 00:34:06,836
Speaker 2: and negative events and so forth, and I think you

562
00:34:06,956 --> 00:34:11,396
Speaker 2: become a little more adventurous and actually experience something that

563
00:34:11,476 --> 00:34:14,956
Speaker 2: you wouldn't holp you would ever experience, and you know

564
00:34:15,076 --> 00:34:18,396
Speaker 2: that really could change you and the course of your life.

565
00:34:18,476 --> 00:34:23,436
Speaker 2: So I think uncertainty and unpredictability are part of life

566
00:34:23,516 --> 00:34:25,916
Speaker 2: and we should embrace it. And to the extend that

567
00:34:25,956 --> 00:34:30,076
Speaker 2: you embrace it, you're maximizing the possibility of adding the

568
00:34:30,156 --> 00:34:31,396
Speaker 2: richness to your life.

569
00:34:31,476 --> 00:34:33,796
Speaker 1: I think sometimes when people look at the possibility of

570
00:34:33,836 --> 00:34:37,876
Speaker 1: making their life more exciting, exploring more getting curious, Honestly,

571
00:34:37,916 --> 00:34:39,836
Speaker 1: some of the people I know feel trapped, right They

572
00:34:39,836 --> 00:34:43,476
Speaker 1: feel incredibly busy. There's this whole host of obligations. It

573
00:34:43,476 --> 00:34:45,716
Speaker 1: feels like they're kind of really comfortable in their life.

574
00:34:45,756 --> 00:34:48,236
Speaker 1: It might feel scary to break out of it. Any

575
00:34:48,276 --> 00:34:50,916
Speaker 1: advice for folks who might be having an experience like

576
00:34:50,956 --> 00:34:53,076
Speaker 1: that or it feels really hard to go after some

577
00:34:53,116 --> 00:34:55,516
Speaker 1: of these things that might make their life psychologically really.

578
00:34:55,516 --> 00:35:00,996
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I totally like get that, because by

579
00:35:01,116 --> 00:35:04,596
Speaker 2: nature I really like familiarity too. But I think the

580
00:35:04,676 --> 00:35:08,036
Speaker 2: one way if you are afraid of doing like completely

581
00:35:08,276 --> 00:35:11,116
Speaker 2: brand new things, and I think one thing I can

582
00:35:11,196 --> 00:35:14,876
Speaker 2: suggest is really stick with what you like. If you

583
00:35:14,956 --> 00:35:18,316
Speaker 2: love beatles, you can keep listening to beatles, but try

584
00:35:18,396 --> 00:35:21,316
Speaker 2: to find something new about the same song you are

585
00:35:21,436 --> 00:35:24,356
Speaker 2: listening for all these years. And the same thing with

586
00:35:24,596 --> 00:35:28,596
Speaker 2: the literature. If you love Missus Dorway, you can read

587
00:35:28,716 --> 00:35:31,836
Speaker 2: like three times four times and you find always something new.

588
00:35:32,036 --> 00:35:35,796
Speaker 2: So if you're afraid of trying something new, actually just

589
00:35:35,836 --> 00:35:39,196
Speaker 2: going back to your favorite movie or favorite song and

590
00:35:39,316 --> 00:35:42,236
Speaker 2: favorite bands and things like that, you can actually find

591
00:35:42,236 --> 00:35:45,476
Speaker 2: in something new from the familiar. My favorite story here

592
00:35:45,596 --> 00:35:48,076
Speaker 2: is I have been married with my wife for a

593
00:35:48,196 --> 00:35:52,116
Speaker 2: long time. I've known for like twenty years, and around

594
00:35:52,156 --> 00:35:55,796
Speaker 2: twenty ten I said we should buy some painting and

595
00:35:55,836 --> 00:35:58,476
Speaker 2: then she goes, Okay, I can paint, and it's like

596
00:35:58,796 --> 00:36:02,156
Speaker 2: what I didn't know that you can paint? And then boys,

597
00:36:02,236 --> 00:36:04,996
Speaker 2: she can paint. She's just like pain, pain, pain. Now

598
00:36:05,036 --> 00:36:09,036
Speaker 2: it's just full of her painting. So sometimes you just

599
00:36:09,196 --> 00:36:13,796
Speaker 2: find something new from very familiar person. If you just

600
00:36:13,876 --> 00:36:17,436
Speaker 2: have an opportunity to ask some new questions or chance

601
00:36:17,516 --> 00:36:20,356
Speaker 2: to talk about some topic that you never talked about

602
00:36:20,396 --> 00:36:23,676
Speaker 2: with the same old friends, you can actually enrich your

603
00:36:23,716 --> 00:36:28,476
Speaker 2: life by digging deeper with your familiar objects some person

604
00:36:28,676 --> 00:36:32,636
Speaker 2: as well. If you are afraid of sort of going all.

605
00:36:32,476 --> 00:36:36,636
Speaker 1: The way out for more big and small steps towards

606
00:36:36,716 --> 00:36:39,356
Speaker 1: leading a psychologically rich life, you should really check out

607
00:36:39,436 --> 00:36:43,316
Speaker 1: Shegay's new book Life in three dimensions how curiosity, exploration,

608
00:36:43,396 --> 00:36:46,956
Speaker 1: and experience make a fuller, better life. But let's recap

609
00:36:46,956 --> 00:36:49,956
Speaker 1: the how to tips we've heard so far. Tip number one,

610
00:36:50,396 --> 00:36:53,076
Speaker 1: find ways to be more playful. Take a little break

611
00:36:53,076 --> 00:36:56,876
Speaker 1: from your responsibilities and try to cultivate a childlike curiosity

612
00:36:56,956 --> 00:37:00,276
Speaker 1: and sense of fun. Tip number two, be more open

613
00:37:00,356 --> 00:37:03,556
Speaker 1: to the random. It's comforting to schedule everything in life,

614
00:37:03,676 --> 00:37:06,396
Speaker 1: but try to find more moments of serendipity. It could

615
00:37:06,396 --> 00:37:08,756
Speaker 1: be as simple as stopping by the chat with a coworker.

616
00:37:09,356 --> 00:37:12,876
Speaker 1: The third tip is to experience psychological richness by proxy.

617
00:37:13,276 --> 00:37:16,396
Speaker 1: You can visit a faraway place, witness a natural wonder,

618
00:37:16,676 --> 00:37:19,596
Speaker 1: or hear about some amazing people just by reading a book,

619
00:37:19,756 --> 00:37:22,876
Speaker 1: looking at a painting, or watching a movie. Tip number

620
00:37:22,916 --> 00:37:25,436
Speaker 1: four is to explore we can easily get in the

621
00:37:25,436 --> 00:37:28,196
Speaker 1: habit of doing the same things day in, day out,

622
00:37:28,396 --> 00:37:31,116
Speaker 1: so throw some variety into the mix, even if that's

623
00:37:31,156 --> 00:37:34,516
Speaker 1: turning left out your front door instead of right. And

624
00:37:34,596 --> 00:37:37,436
Speaker 1: Chigey's final tip is to see the richness in adversity.

625
00:37:37,836 --> 00:37:40,716
Speaker 1: Putting yourself out there has its risks. There will be

626
00:37:40,756 --> 00:37:44,516
Speaker 1: disappointments and setbacks, but those challenges ultimately add to our

627
00:37:44,556 --> 00:37:47,996
Speaker 1: life story and help us grow. That's it for a

628
00:37:48,036 --> 00:37:51,396
Speaker 1: psychologically rich life. But our how To season isn't over yet.

629
00:37:51,636 --> 00:37:54,556
Speaker 1: Our next installment tackles what changes you should make to

630
00:37:54,636 --> 00:37:57,996
Speaker 1: motivate and elevate the people around you. In short, we'll

631
00:37:58,036 --> 00:38:02,276
Speaker 1: be exploring how to become an inspiring person. That's all.

632
00:38:02,316 --> 00:38:05,196
Speaker 1: Next time on the Happiness Lab with me Doctor Laurie

633
00:38:05,196 --> 00:38:11,636
Speaker 1: Santos