WEBVTT - Could Buddhism Save The Global Economy? 0:00:09.320 --> 0:00:13.000 Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:17.160 I'm Tracy Alloway and I'm Jill went Joe. We've said 0:00:17.200 --> 0:00:20.160 this before, but it feels like we've gotten off to 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:23.760 a really dark start for two thousand and seventeen. And 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:27.120 doesn't it just feel like everyone is sort of really 0:00:27.680 --> 0:00:32.440 emotional right now and unhappy and quite negative. Wait, when 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:34.320 you say we've gotten off to a dark start in 0:00:35.120 --> 0:00:38.160 do you mean the world or you're referring to our podcast, 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:40.560 because I guess they're both kind of true. Maybe, Yeah, 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:42.760 I think you could take your pick. I did mean 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:47.120 the podcast specifically. I mean we've been um going through 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:52.680 some not not sunshine and light topics right right, Kidnapping, 0:00:53.400 --> 0:00:58.000 the mafia, the French Revolution. Yeah, I'd say we've had 0:00:58.200 --> 0:01:01.760 several bleak episodes. All right, So do you ever kind 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:07.600 of wonder about why everyone is so unhappy and so dissatisfied, 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:10.240 particularly at this moment in time? Now I'm not talking 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:12.520 about the podcast now, I'm talking about the wider world. 0:01:13.520 --> 0:01:17.000 It certainly does feel like there is some sort of 0:01:17.520 --> 0:01:21.479 deeper crisis that is not something that just started this year, 0:01:21.840 --> 0:01:26.959 that's not something particularly related to politics in any given country. 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:30.000 That may manifest itself as such from time to time. 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:33.400 But uh, and it could be narcissism. Maybe everyone just 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:36.400 sort of feels like their ages in crisis. But you know, 0:01:36.959 --> 0:01:39.600 I remember the nineties. I think people were pretty happy then, 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:43.959 and it feels like things have turned a darker corner 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:46.600 in terms of perceptions of the state of the world 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:50.760 and people's material being. Right, So you mentioned material being, 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:55.160 But it's weird, right because by most measures, people's standards 0:01:55.240 --> 0:01:59.600 of living have actually increased quite dramatically. Right. Everyone has 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:03.400 fridges and washing machines, We have Netflix, we can watch 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:07.400 whatever we want to watch, um lots of entertainment options, 0:02:07.520 --> 0:02:14.040 and everyone still feels economically deprived in some way, right, absolutely. 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:16.480 And you see these charts, and there are these optimists 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:18.880 out there who are saying, look, fewer and fewer people 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:21.200 die of ex disease every year, or we're close to 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:24.160 curing this, or everybody has this now and they didn't 0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:27.680 have that ten years ago. But strangely, it doesn't seem 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:32.360 to really satisfy many people, right, And economics hasn't really 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:37.240 been able to discuss that issue either, because again, if 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:40.160 you look on a pure economics perspective, like sure, you 0:02:40.160 --> 0:02:42.560 can look at sluggish wage growth, you can look at 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:49.320 low productivity, but overall things should be reasonably Okay, Uh, 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:53.079 you'd think so, So what's the answer. How about Buddhism? 0:02:54.160 --> 0:02:59.440 Go on? Okay, So today we are actually going to 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:03.120 talk about what we can learn from Buddhism when it 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:06.639 comes to economics. And if you think about it, it's 0:03:06.639 --> 0:03:10.600 a really interesting question because at first glance, you would 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:15.320 think Buddhism is almost totally different to economics. Right. Economics 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:18.880 is all about goods, it's all about increasing wealth, and 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:23.440 Buddhism is pretty much the polar opposite. Yeah. Absolutely, And 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:26.680 it would not be intuitive that there would be a, 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:29.839 you know, an episode of this podcast where the two 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:33.200 are combined. But there's not just an episode. There's actually 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:37.760 a class being taught called Buddhist economics. And today we 0:03:37.800 --> 0:03:41.320 are going to speak with the professor behind that class. 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:45.040 She is Claire Brown. She's a professor of economics at 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:58.600 UC Berkeley. Claire, thanks so much for joining us. I'm 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:00.880 delighted to join you in on lots to talk about 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:04.440 Buddhist economics. Well, what's Buddhist? I'm just gonna start with 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:10.360 the obvious question, what is Buddhist economics. Buddhist economics rest 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:15.040 upon a lot of economics that's already been done about inequality, 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:17.960 how it occurs, what we can do about it, about 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:22.240 sustainability and how to create an economy that can move 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:25.880 us to clean energy and low carbon emissions, and about 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:31.120 how to reduce suffering and increase happiness. So Buddhist economics 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:35.520 basically brings together a lot of economics. It's already out there, 0:04:36.080 --> 0:04:39.960 but it's done in a very fragmented way. So what 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:43.200 I wanted to do was to bring together a lot 0:04:43.240 --> 0:04:47.159 of the economics that we already know into a system 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:53.159 where we have equity, we have sustainability, and we simultaneously 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:57.279 are reducing suffering and increasing happiness. And it's in the 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:01.039 last part that Buddhism plays a big role, because in 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:05.560 Buddhism we're all interconnected with each other and with nature, 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:10.160 and we are supposed to reduce suffering. And so there's 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:13.160 a way to integrate all of these ideas into an 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:17.800 economic structure that can make some sense. So, Claire, how 0:05:17.839 --> 0:05:22.520 do you square Buddhism with classical economics? Because economics is 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:25.400 essentially we set it in the intro right, it's all 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:29.080 about goods. But even its view of labor is very, 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:33.920 very specific because in classical economics, employers are always working 0:05:34.080 --> 0:05:39.080 towards increasing output while minimizing employees, right, so how would 0:05:39.080 --> 0:05:44.839 they ever account for things like well being. Let's let's 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:47.120 step back one minute and say, what are our two 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:52.479 biggest economic problems. They're inequality and sustainability. And we do 0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:56.679 care about laboring, jobs and technological change, but right now 0:05:57.560 --> 0:06:01.159 we're dealing with enormous inequality that's been growing for the 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:04.520 last forty years, and we're dealing with the problem of 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:07.119 global warming where we need to move to a clean 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:11.840 energy economy. So the way we put together Buddhist economics 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:14.320 is we say, you know, we know a lot about 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:19.640 inequality society Pixier level of inequality, and then they can 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:24.480 set up their institutions or rules and regulations to decrease inequality. 0:06:24.560 --> 0:06:27.760 We know that we can do that, but in fact 0:06:28.000 --> 0:06:31.400 we haven't in the United States. We also know that 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:34.160 we have the technology, we have the science about how 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:37.960 to move from a fossil fuel economy to a clean economy. 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:40.600 We know we can do that, So why are people 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:45.200 feeling unhappy? Well? From a Buddhist economics viewpoint, people are 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:51.520 feeling unhappy because when you have increased inequality, people compare 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:54.720 how well they're doing to the people above them, and 0:06:54.800 --> 0:06:57.919 all of a sudden, the economic growth is going to 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:01.880 the top one percent, and families across the board are 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:05.760 feeling less well off. It's like, we don't need to 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:09.080 have that level of unhappiness, but we are having it 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:12.600 because our society, in our economy are not willing to 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:18.200 undertake the policies to actually redistribute income and to help 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:23.520 the bottom nine. Now, one of the things that you know, 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:26.160 it strikes for me about economics is and a sort 0:07:26.200 --> 0:07:30.440 of truism that I think extends beyond all beyond just economics, 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:33.320 is you can get what you measure. So it's easy 0:07:33.400 --> 0:07:36.920 to measure the number of people who are unemployed, and 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:41.040 it's easy to create a policy in theory that reduces 0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:43.400 the number of unemployed, or if you want to lower 0:07:43.440 --> 0:07:46.880 people's taxes, you can there's a number there. How do 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:50.480 you measure happiness? I mean, it's a subjective thing. People 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:53.480 might say, oh, everyone feels so unhappy these days, but 0:07:53.520 --> 0:07:56.360 it's not like there's some obvious statistic out there that 0:07:56.520 --> 0:08:00.360 judges the mood of the nation, So how do you feel? 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:04.840 Confident saying what we sort of all intuitively feel, which 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:09.480 is that people are are unhappy and unsatisfied. You're right, 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:12.640 it's it's very hard to make a good measurement of 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:16.680 happiness and even a well being, but economists have lots 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:18.800 of ways we do it. We have many metrics. One 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:22.000 of them, for example, for happiness, is the control ladder, 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:26.040 where we ask people Gallop ask people around the world, 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:29.760 how are you feeling about your life? In the ladder? 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:32.640 If ten is the highest rank and one is the lowest, 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:35.960 Right now, what's the best you could given? What's the 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:37.480 best you could do in your life? Where are you 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:41.040 on the ladder? What's so interesting is it most people 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:43.959 just give a perfunctory oh, I'm a five or six, 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:47.480 and it's really hard to tell from that. I think 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:52.320 how people are truly feeling because there their their response 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:55.480 on the Cantral ladder doesn't vary a great deal across 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:59.840 society or even within society. But we can go once 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:03.680 up further. In the UK, they've put together Equality of 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:08.079 Life Index of well Being that's much more objective, not 0:09:08.160 --> 0:09:10.640 just asking how do you feel, but sort of how 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:12.600 well are you doing? And it has to do with 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:16.360 your health, with how well you're functioning in society, and 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:20.360 other measures that really look at people's well being, and 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:24.160 they pull ten measures into an index, and what they 0:09:24.240 --> 0:09:29.400 find is that when inequality goes up, the social well 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:33.800 being index goes down. People are actually not doing as 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:37.400 well in a very objective manner, and so we can 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:43.280 see that in fact, social well being in inequality go together, unfortunately. 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:48.120 And versely, is that dissatisfaction? Is that all because of 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:53.240 income inequality or are people also unhappy about the nature 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:56.080 of their work because the other thing that's been going 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:59.360 on for the past few years is this idea that 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:04.320 we've lost a lot of traditional jobs, manufacturing jobs specifically. 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:07.959 Um is there a sense that some people just aren't 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:10.880 happy because they aren't doing the work that they would 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:14.920 prefer to be doing. I think one of the biggest 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:19.160 problems with work around the country, especially in the rust belt, 0:10:20.120 --> 0:10:24.960 is that as we've gone, especially into automation and technological change, 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:29.240 that a lot of jobs have disappeared, but they've disappeared 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:33.280 in towns where there are no alternatives. And of course, 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:36.439 one of the things in Buddhist economics it's very important 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:39.920 is it first of all, everybody has a comfortable life 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:43.120 with food, clothing, shelter, they can buy the things they 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:46.920 need for their families to survive well be comfortable. But 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:51.120 that also in Buddhist economics is Schumacher told us right 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:54.600 livelihood or the way you make a living matters to 0:10:54.679 --> 0:10:57.800 all of us, so that we care about how we 0:10:57.880 --> 0:11:00.960 spend our time, how we spend our energy, both at 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:04.760 work but also at home and in the community. So 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:08.960 in Buddhist economics, well being encompasses not just your consumption, 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:13.240 because everyone needs a certain amount of consumption, but also 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:17.840 encompasses how how well you feel about your work and 0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:21.680 your productivity at work and what you're giving to the community, 0:11:21.800 --> 0:11:26.040 and then also how well you feel about your relationships 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:29.480 and what you're doing outside of work at home with family, 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:34.080 with friends. So it all comes together and asking how 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:38.600 well is our economy producing well being for everyone, not 0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:42.640 just how right now. The way we measure economic performance 0:11:42.640 --> 0:11:45.080 as we say, oh, what's the g d P, what's 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:49.600 the output on average per person, which really doesn't tell 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:53.200 us very much about well being. So if I sort 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:55.679 of if I'm trying to get the big picture of 0:11:55.720 --> 0:11:59.400 what you teach and what Buddhist economics is is it 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:05.360 a sent actually a search for other values that economists 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:08.760 typically ignore that if they paid more attention to them, 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:13.040 they might see crises coming. So thinking about happiness as 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:17.040 a measure, thinking about right livelihood and the importance of 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:20.440 what one does with their day and how how they 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:23.800 value that is the idea essentially that if more people 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:26.440 were aware of all of the importance of all these things, 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:29.839 then we could have built an economic system or pursudent 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:34.320 economic system that would lead to greater satisfaction. I think 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:38.160 I think that's will put Joe, yes. I think here's 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:41.680 the whole point. Economists know a lot about how to 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:45.880 improve equality within a society. We also know how to 0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:50.000 make a more sustainable world built upon clean energy. It's 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:53.920 just in the United States for some reason, the Republicans 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:56.840 aren't really against this. They say no, no, no, that's 0:12:56.840 --> 0:13:00.120 not the structure we want. And to be honest, now 0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:03.560 we're even moving into a situation where economists aren't even 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:07.120 allowed to show their studies where we can. We have 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:10.640 so many studies that we know about how to move 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:15.559 us from an economy that's just based upon more goods 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:19.720 and services which are not exactly what people necessarily want 0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:23.319 to be happier or to feel better. To an economy 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:28.080 where we can create meaningful jobs, we can create meaningful 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:32.640 experiences for people within a social and economic structure that 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:37.760 cares about everyone, not just average um income per person. 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:43.200 So if you were applying Buddhist economics to the real world, 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:45.960 can you can you give us an example of what 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:52.880 one like real Buddhist economic policy would be. Okay, that's 0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:57.160 that's great, because actually we have eight steps to get 0:13:57.240 --> 0:14:00.440 to a Buddhist economy, and the most important rule, once 0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:03.240 again is by the government, where we would have more 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:08.360 progressive taxes, we would build jobs within the rust belt 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:14.680 that allow people to basically develop their full potential. And 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:20.600 we would also make sure that all consumers are able 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:25.560 to move to clean energy, which is basically electricity based 0:14:25.640 --> 0:14:30.280 upon renewable resources. So we would have the government setting 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:33.760 up and most of these policies are already in effect 0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:35.960 in many countries around the world. It's just we're a 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:39.880 little slow in the US to getting on board. Then 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:45.160 we would have companies take one step further and say, okay, 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:48.680 we actually do need to create jobs that allow people 0:14:48.840 --> 0:14:53.600 enough time to have family and community life. So we 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:58.240 want to have companies create jobs that aren't just based 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:01.680 upon the number of hours, but jobs that pay a 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:05.560 living wage and also provide time for people to care 0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:08.920 for their families. So when I listen to this, it 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:11.760 all makes a lot of sense, But it sounds to 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:17.960 me like fairly straightforward leftist or progressive economic policies, or 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:21.360 at least it doesn't sound that much different. Is there 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:26.080 something distinct about, you know, as a playing devil's advocate here, 0:15:26.080 --> 0:15:29.640 is there's something distinct about sort of as you see 0:15:29.640 --> 0:15:32.520 in Buddhist economics that isn't sort of what you hear 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:37.880 um progressives typically talk about. Yes, in some ways that 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:44.520 because progressives have especially focused on inequality, and Buddhist economics says, no, 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:48.240 that's not enough inequality we want to reduce. But what 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:51.840 we really need to care about is our interconnection with 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:56.640 nature and sustainability. So many economists have actually seen and 0:15:56.680 --> 0:15:59.680 talked and think about nature is just something out there 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:04.400 that used to increase consumption and that's not the way 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:08.520 we can actually move forward into a sustainable world as 0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:12.200 we rebuild the infrastructure for clean energy. And then the 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:15.080 third part is economist think of, oh, we just need 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:18.120 economic growth, that's all we need to get going again. 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:22.120 But in fact, in Buddhist economics, and some economists of 0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:25.840 course agree with this more generally, what what you have 0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:29.480 to understand is that economic growth right now just means 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:33.480 more GDP on average, and it's been going to the rich. 0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:37.280 It hasn't been going to everyone. So we used to 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:40.080 say in economics, well, if we have economic growth, the 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:43.000 rising tide brings up all ships. But that's not the 0:16:43.040 --> 0:16:46.960 case now. So in Buddhist economics we were very specifically 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:51.040 saying we don't want economic growth that focuses on raising 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:56.240 income and consumption for basically the rich. But economic growth 0:16:56.320 --> 0:17:00.360 is something we care about that increases well being, and 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:03.160 we want to measure it that way. We've no longer 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:07.280 want a major economic performance is output per person, but 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:09.760 we want to measure it in a holistic way. And 0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:12.399 economists have lots of matrix we can use. We have 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:16.399 the Genuine Progress Indicator or the Better Life Index. We 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:18.679 have many that we can use, but we need to 0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:23.080 start using them so that economic growth is when we 0:17:23.280 --> 0:17:26.719 help the environment. Economic growth goes up when we reduce 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:30.320 an equality. Economic growth goes up when we give people 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:34.080 more time to spend with their families and communities, economic 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:36.920 growth goes up. So when we look at it that way, 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:42.040 happiness goes with economic growth, as people feel like the 0:17:42.080 --> 0:17:44.640 things that they care about and are meaningful to them 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:49.000 are now important and are delivered through the economy. What 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:52.439 if you get inequality and happiness levels? Like, is that 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:56.240 an issue? If some people are happier than others? Oh? 0:17:56.400 --> 0:18:01.159 Like a second derivative, Yeah, I'm just curious. Could it 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:04.199 be a problem? Mainly, what you want to think of 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:06.320 it this way, Tracy think of it is we want 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:09.840 to reduce suffering, So we we want everybody to be 0:18:09.880 --> 0:18:13.320 happy in some way, but we aren't trying to compare 0:18:13.480 --> 0:18:16.520 their happiness level. But we are trying to help the 0:18:16.560 --> 0:18:20.480 people at the very bottom who are suffering for various reasons. 0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:23.720 Often it's because they don't have enough food or or 0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:27.280 clean water or what have you. But what we do 0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:31.840 care about is that if your happiness goes up but 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:34.679 just for a few people, but it goes down for 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:37.960 most people, then the economy is not producing well being. 0:18:38.080 --> 0:18:40.600 That actually would be seen as is a decline and 0:18:40.640 --> 0:18:43.560 well being. So what we want to do is increase 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:46.840 the well being of everyone and not just a few. 0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:50.840 And when I say well being, well being, happiness were 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:54.080 there's somewhat interchangeable. What is the What is the best 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:56.800 thing to read for people who are more interested in 0:18:56.840 --> 0:18:59.480 this if they wanted to, uh read a book that 0:18:59.560 --> 0:19:04.120 sort of explained Buddhist values that could potentially be applied 0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:07.719 to economic thinking, where would you recommend they start? Well, 0:19:07.720 --> 0:19:09.560 I would recommend, of course, they start with my book 0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:14.160 Buddhist Economics, because we we I do go over basic 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:18.119 Buddhism and how it applies to economics, and then I 0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:22.440 explained the pre market economy and why we really it's 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:25.480 not producing what we want. And then we moved to 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:29.360 the Buddhist economy, which is based upon a Martius Sin 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:33.679 and Joe Stiglets and many economists, but we integrated. We 0:19:33.720 --> 0:19:36.879 bring them together and say, now, what happens if we 0:19:36.960 --> 0:19:40.639 bring together all the things that economists know but somewhat 0:19:40.720 --> 0:19:44.480 practice in their little niches, how would that then structure 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:49.240 an economy that provides well being for everyone? Claire, what's 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:52.720 been the reception to the class that you're teaching at Berkeley? 0:19:52.760 --> 0:19:56.560 Because I think I read somewhere that your students meditate 0:19:56.760 --> 0:19:59.600 as part of the syllabus, and you also have the 0:19:59.600 --> 0:20:05.040 involved of a Tibetan Buddhist priest. It sounds quite unusual. Well, 0:20:05.119 --> 0:20:08.959 Buddhism is experiential, as you pointed out earlier in economics 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:12.160 as conceptual, so we need to bring them together. And 0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:15.560 also the mindfulness movement of sitting. Everyone who who now 0:20:15.680 --> 0:20:17.919 knows that, Oh, it helps your brain. It sort of 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:20.040 helps you figure out who you are and how you 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:23.040 fit into the world. So yeah, we do some sitting 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:26.480 five to ten minutes. Um, we do field work where 0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:29.720 the students go and actually go to a practice at 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:33.520 a at a Buddhist temple where they sit and have 0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:37.000 a lesson and uh. And that's field work. So I 0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:41.640 want students to understand the experiential part of Buddhist economics 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:44.880 as well as the conceptual part, because the conceptual part 0:20:44.960 --> 0:20:48.280 is much easier to teach them. Um, you know, they 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:51.200 all know how to do economics or they're learning at least. 0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:55.320 And so the students actually, when you ask them at 0:20:55.320 --> 0:20:57.440 the end of class what was most important, they said, oh, 0:20:57.480 --> 0:21:00.520 we love the experiential part. That was great. We also 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:05.480 love thinking outside the box and uh. And many of 0:21:05.560 --> 0:21:06.879 them have come back and said, do you know, it 0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:09.000 has helped me so much to learn to quiet my 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:13.880 mind and open my heart when we're sitting. And so 0:21:14.720 --> 0:21:18.760 we the students love the class basically, and so um 0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:21.919 we have to rise in it. But hm, then they 0:21:22.000 --> 0:21:24.720 say go out and help each other, you know, teacher friends, 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:28.880 which they then do. You know, thinking about this sort 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:32.960 of current malaise, and you know, we accept that there 0:21:33.080 --> 0:21:36.399 is this deep unhappiness out there around the world. Something 0:21:36.440 --> 0:21:40.040 that I've thought about is how our culture and our 0:21:40.040 --> 0:21:43.239 society really values. You know, if there's one thing that 0:21:43.359 --> 0:21:46.680 our society really values, it's making money. And as long 0:21:46.720 --> 0:21:50.040 as people are generally getting rich, and you certainly it 0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:53.280 felt like everyone was getting rich in the nineties during 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:55.400 the dot com bubble, and a lot of people felt 0:21:55.440 --> 0:21:58.480 like they were getting rich in the two thousands, then 0:21:58.520 --> 0:22:02.960 it feels like, you know, you're the individual getting rich 0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:05.679 and that society feels like they're achieving the goals and 0:22:05.720 --> 0:22:09.439 the values that society has it out for them. And now, 0:22:09.600 --> 0:22:14.040 in the wake of the financial crisis, I wonder, you know, 0:22:14.520 --> 0:22:17.320 people are maybe they've returned to jobs, but it doesn't 0:22:17.320 --> 0:22:20.560 really feel like they're People don't feel like they're thriving 0:22:20.760 --> 0:22:23.679 and I wonder like if the issue is like we 0:22:23.760 --> 0:22:26.560 don't have a thing that society is for besides being rich, 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:31.480 and that, you know, besides just anticipating what aspects of 0:22:31.480 --> 0:22:34.399 an economy are going to make people unhappy, that it 0:22:34.440 --> 0:22:37.320 really comes down to sort of these deep values that 0:22:37.520 --> 0:22:40.359 we don't you know, there's not something bigger that people 0:22:40.400 --> 0:22:43.120 can pursue other than sort of individualism and their own 0:22:43.160 --> 0:22:46.320 material well being, and that the sort of more spiritual 0:22:46.320 --> 0:22:50.760 approach and understanding nana non material things is sort of 0:22:51.320 --> 0:22:54.199 the essence of why people are unhappy. Maybe I'm just 0:22:54.240 --> 0:22:56.800 restating it, but I think this sort of really what 0:22:56.840 --> 0:23:00.240 you're talking about really does, I think speak to why 0:23:00.280 --> 0:23:03.720 we see this rise and unhappiness after the economy really 0:23:03.760 --> 0:23:07.399 stalled out. Yes, I think that's really true, Joe, that 0:23:07.440 --> 0:23:11.919 people are looking for a meaningful life and the consumption 0:23:12.000 --> 0:23:15.119 income are just one aspect of it, and they don't 0:23:15.200 --> 0:23:17.959 want to have their whole life focused on that because 0:23:17.960 --> 0:23:21.520 otherwise you say, gee, I'm just working, but I need 0:23:21.560 --> 0:23:26.440 to live also, and I need Relationships are extraordinarily important 0:23:26.440 --> 0:23:29.800 to people and how happy they are, and helping other 0:23:29.920 --> 0:23:34.280 people in fact makes people much happier. So so we 0:23:34.359 --> 0:23:36.720 know that we need to be able to bring these 0:23:36.760 --> 0:23:40.639 all together, and we can within our economic structure. We 0:23:40.760 --> 0:23:43.600 can't just any longer say oh, that's okay, but when 0:23:43.640 --> 0:23:46.919 they maybe you'll be rich. I have just one more question, 0:23:46.960 --> 0:23:49.280 and then we have to let Claire go. Um. But 0:23:49.440 --> 0:23:53.959 it's that there is a theory out there right now, 0:23:54.040 --> 0:23:56.880 which is that if we allow the economy to keep 0:23:56.880 --> 0:23:59.880 working as efficiently as possible, if we develop as much 0:24:00.000 --> 0:24:05.360 technology as possible, will get everything automated. Output will be fantastic. 0:24:05.400 --> 0:24:07.560 We'll have a bunch of robots doing all the work 0:24:07.600 --> 0:24:11.240 for us, and we as human beings will be able 0:24:11.320 --> 0:24:15.160 to sit around and enjoy our leisure time. How does 0:24:15.240 --> 0:24:19.240 that square with economics, and with Buddhist economics in particular, 0:24:20.080 --> 0:24:22.080 right Well, I I know, I read all these are 0:24:22.119 --> 0:24:24.280 my colleagues that are my here in various places, and 0:24:24.320 --> 0:24:26.200 I you know, I think we're a long way from that. 0:24:26.240 --> 0:24:29.160 But I do think that one of the wonderful things 0:24:29.200 --> 0:24:33.359 about our increased productivity and technology is we could lower 0:24:33.600 --> 0:24:36.600 the work week. And we can do that, but to 0:24:36.680 --> 0:24:39.480 do that, we need to do it within a structured framework. 0:24:40.000 --> 0:24:44.879 We're minimum wages and transfers from capital to workers occurs 0:24:44.920 --> 0:24:48.600 in a balanced market system, we can do all those things. 0:24:48.800 --> 0:24:51.520 And in my book I talk about some of the 0:24:51.640 --> 0:24:54.600 policies that are that are suggested and how we might 0:24:54.680 --> 0:24:58.600 move to there. But it's a wonderful opportunity to think, 0:24:59.040 --> 0:25:01.080 you know, we won't have to work as hard, we 0:25:01.119 --> 0:25:03.600 won't have to work as many hours, and we can 0:25:03.640 --> 0:25:06.439 focus on our well being within our families and our 0:25:06.480 --> 0:25:10.520 communities and our country. And that would be a wonderful 0:25:10.560 --> 0:25:16.439 way of seeing the economy delivering well being to everyone. Okay, 0:25:16.480 --> 0:25:19.680 Claire Brown, Professor of Economics of u C. Berkeley, thank 0:25:19.720 --> 0:25:22.280 you so much for joining us today. It was my 0:25:22.400 --> 0:25:36.560