1 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 2 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Alloway and I'm Jill went Joe. We've said 3 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 1: this before, but it feels like we've gotten off to 4 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:23,760 Speaker 1: a really dark start for two thousand and seventeen. And 5 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: doesn't it just feel like everyone is sort of really 6 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: emotional right now and unhappy and quite negative. Wait, when 7 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 1: you say we've gotten off to a dark start in 8 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:38,160 Speaker 1: do you mean the world or you're referring to our podcast, 9 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 1: because I guess they're both kind of true. Maybe, Yeah, 10 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: I think you could take your pick. I did mean 11 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: the podcast specifically. I mean we've been um going through 12 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: some not not sunshine and light topics right right, Kidnapping, 13 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: the mafia, the French Revolution. Yeah, I'd say we've had 14 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: several bleak episodes. All right, So do you ever kind 15 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: of wonder about why everyone is so unhappy and so dissatisfied, 16 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: particularly at this moment in time? Now I'm not talking 17 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: about the podcast now, I'm talking about the wider world. 18 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: It certainly does feel like there is some sort of 19 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:21,479 Speaker 1: deeper crisis that is not something that just started this year, 20 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 1: that's not something particularly related to politics in any given country. 21 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: That may manifest itself as such from time to time. 22 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:33,400 Speaker 1: But uh, and it could be narcissism. Maybe everyone just 23 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:36,400 Speaker 1: sort of feels like their ages in crisis. But you know, 24 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 1: I remember the nineties. I think people were pretty happy then, 25 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 1: and it feels like things have turned a darker corner 26 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: in terms of perceptions of the state of the world 27 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: and people's material being. Right, So you mentioned material being, 28 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: But it's weird, right because by most measures, people's standards 29 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: of living have actually increased quite dramatically. Right. Everyone has 30 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: fridges and washing machines, We have Netflix, we can watch 31 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: whatever we want to watch, um lots of entertainment options, 32 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 1: and everyone still feels economically deprived in some way, right, absolutely. 33 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: And you see these charts, and there are these optimists 34 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: out there who are saying, look, fewer and fewer people 35 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: die of ex disease every year, or we're close to 36 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: curing this, or everybody has this now and they didn't 37 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 1: have that ten years ago. But strangely, it doesn't seem 38 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 1: to really satisfy many people, right, And economics hasn't really 39 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 1: been able to discuss that issue either, because again, if 40 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: you look on a pure economics perspective, like sure, you 41 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: can look at sluggish wage growth, you can look at 42 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: low productivity, but overall things should be reasonably Okay, Uh, 43 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:53,079 Speaker 1: you'd think so, So what's the answer. How about Buddhism? 44 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: Go on? Okay, So today we are actually going to 45 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: talk about what we can learn from Buddhism when it 46 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 1: comes to economics. And if you think about it, it's 47 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: a really interesting question because at first glance, you would 48 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: think Buddhism is almost totally different to economics. Right. Economics 49 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 1: is all about goods, it's all about increasing wealth, and 50 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: Buddhism is pretty much the polar opposite. Yeah. Absolutely, And 51 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 1: it would not be intuitive that there would be a, 52 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,839 Speaker 1: you know, an episode of this podcast where the two 53 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 1: are combined. But there's not just an episode. There's actually 54 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: a class being taught called Buddhist economics. And today we 55 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: are going to speak with the professor behind that class. 56 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 1: She is Claire Brown. She's a professor of economics at 57 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 1: UC Berkeley. Claire, thanks so much for joining us. I'm 58 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: delighted to join you in on lots to talk about 59 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: Buddhist economics. Well, what's Buddhist? I'm just gonna start with 60 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: the obvious question, what is Buddhist economics. Buddhist economics rest 61 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: upon a lot of economics that's already been done about inequality, 62 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: how it occurs, what we can do about it, about 63 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 1: sustainability and how to create an economy that can move 64 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: us to clean energy and low carbon emissions, and about 65 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: how to reduce suffering and increase happiness. So Buddhist economics 66 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: basically brings together a lot of economics. It's already out there, 67 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: but it's done in a very fragmented way. So what 68 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: I wanted to do was to bring together a lot 69 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: of the economics that we already know into a system 70 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 1: where we have equity, we have sustainability, and we simultaneously 71 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 1: are reducing suffering and increasing happiness. And it's in the 72 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 1: last part that Buddhism plays a big role, because in 73 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: Buddhism we're all interconnected with each other and with nature, 74 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:10,160 Speaker 1: and we are supposed to reduce suffering. And so there's 75 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,160 Speaker 1: a way to integrate all of these ideas into an 76 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 1: economic structure that can make some sense. So, Claire, how 77 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 1: do you square Buddhism with classical economics? Because economics is 78 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: essentially we set it in the intro right, it's all 79 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: about goods. But even its view of labor is very, 80 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 1: very specific because in classical economics, employers are always working 81 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: towards increasing output while minimizing employees, right, so how would 82 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 1: they ever account for things like well being. Let's let's 83 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 1: step back one minute and say, what are our two 84 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:52,479 Speaker 1: biggest economic problems. They're inequality and sustainability. And we do 85 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:56,679 Speaker 1: care about laboring, jobs and technological change, but right now 86 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:01,159 Speaker 1: we're dealing with enormous inequality that's been growing for the 87 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: last forty years, and we're dealing with the problem of 88 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:07,119 Speaker 1: global warming where we need to move to a clean 89 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:11,840 Speaker 1: energy economy. So the way we put together Buddhist economics 90 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: is we say, you know, we know a lot about 91 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: inequality society Pixier level of inequality, and then they can 92 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:24,480 Speaker 1: set up their institutions or rules and regulations to decrease inequality. 93 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: We know that we can do that, but in fact 94 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: we haven't in the United States. We also know that 95 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:34,160 Speaker 1: we have the technology, we have the science about how 96 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: to move from a fossil fuel economy to a clean economy. 97 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:40,600 Speaker 1: We know we can do that, So why are people 98 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 1: feeling unhappy? Well? From a Buddhist economics viewpoint, people are 99 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: feeling unhappy because when you have increased inequality, people compare 100 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:54,720 Speaker 1: how well they're doing to the people above them, and 101 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,919 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, the economic growth is going to 102 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: the top one percent, and families across the board are 103 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: feeling less well off. It's like, we don't need to 104 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: have that level of unhappiness, but we are having it 105 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: because our society, in our economy are not willing to 106 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 1: undertake the policies to actually redistribute income and to help 107 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: the bottom nine. Now, one of the things that you know, 108 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: it strikes for me about economics is and a sort 109 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 1: of truism that I think extends beyond all beyond just economics, 110 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: is you can get what you measure. So it's easy 111 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: to measure the number of people who are unemployed, and 112 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: it's easy to create a policy in theory that reduces 113 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: the number of unemployed, or if you want to lower 114 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 1: people's taxes, you can there's a number there. How do 115 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: you measure happiness? I mean, it's a subjective thing. People 116 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: might say, oh, everyone feels so unhappy these days, but 117 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 1: it's not like there's some obvious statistic out there that 118 00:07:56,520 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: judges the mood of the nation, So how do you feel? 119 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: Confident saying what we sort of all intuitively feel, which 120 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: is that people are are unhappy and unsatisfied. You're right, 121 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 1: it's it's very hard to make a good measurement of 122 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 1: happiness and even a well being, but economists have lots 123 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: of ways we do it. We have many metrics. One 124 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: of them, for example, for happiness, is the control ladder, 125 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: where we ask people Gallop ask people around the world, 126 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: how are you feeling about your life? In the ladder? 127 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: If ten is the highest rank and one is the lowest, 128 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 1: Right now, what's the best you could given? What's the 129 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: best you could do in your life? Where are you 130 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: on the ladder? What's so interesting is it most people 131 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:43,959 Speaker 1: just give a perfunctory oh, I'm a five or six, 132 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: and it's really hard to tell from that. I think 133 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 1: how people are truly feeling because there their their response 134 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: on the Cantral ladder doesn't vary a great deal across 135 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 1: society or even within society. But we can go once 136 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 1: up further. In the UK, they've put together Equality of 137 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:08,079 Speaker 1: Life Index of well Being that's much more objective, not 138 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: just asking how do you feel, but sort of how 139 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: well are you doing? And it has to do with 140 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 1: your health, with how well you're functioning in society, and 141 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 1: other measures that really look at people's well being, and 142 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 1: they pull ten measures into an index, and what they 143 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: find is that when inequality goes up, the social well 144 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: being index goes down. People are actually not doing as 145 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: well in a very objective manner, and so we can 146 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: see that in fact, social well being in inequality go together, unfortunately. 147 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 1: And versely, is that dissatisfaction? Is that all because of 148 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 1: income inequality or are people also unhappy about the nature 149 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: of their work because the other thing that's been going 150 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: on for the past few years is this idea that 151 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 1: we've lost a lot of traditional jobs, manufacturing jobs specifically. 152 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:07,959 Speaker 1: Um is there a sense that some people just aren't 153 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 1: happy because they aren't doing the work that they would 154 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 1: prefer to be doing. I think one of the biggest 155 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 1: problems with work around the country, especially in the rust belt, 156 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 1: is that as we've gone, especially into automation and technological change, 157 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: that a lot of jobs have disappeared, but they've disappeared 158 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: in towns where there are no alternatives. And of course, 159 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,439 Speaker 1: one of the things in Buddhist economics it's very important 160 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: is it first of all, everybody has a comfortable life 161 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 1: with food, clothing, shelter, they can buy the things they 162 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: need for their families to survive well be comfortable. But 163 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: that also in Buddhist economics is Schumacher told us right 164 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 1: livelihood or the way you make a living matters to 165 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: all of us, so that we care about how we 166 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 1: spend our time, how we spend our energy, both at 167 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: work but also at home and in the community. So 168 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 1: in Buddhist economics, well being encompasses not just your consumption, 169 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: because everyone needs a certain amount of consumption, but also 170 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 1: encompasses how how well you feel about your work and 171 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 1: your productivity at work and what you're giving to the community, 172 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: and then also how well you feel about your relationships 173 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: and what you're doing outside of work at home with family, 174 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 1: with friends. So it all comes together and asking how 175 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 1: well is our economy producing well being for everyone, not 176 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 1: just how right now. The way we measure economic performance 177 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 1: as we say, oh, what's the g d P, what's 178 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: the output on average per person, which really doesn't tell 179 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 1: us very much about well being. So if I sort 180 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 1: of if I'm trying to get the big picture of 181 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: what you teach and what Buddhist economics is is it 182 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 1: a sent actually a search for other values that economists 183 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: typically ignore that if they paid more attention to them, 184 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: they might see crises coming. So thinking about happiness as 185 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: a measure, thinking about right livelihood and the importance of 186 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 1: what one does with their day and how how they 187 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: value that is the idea essentially that if more people 188 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 1: were aware of all of the importance of all these things, 189 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:29,839 Speaker 1: then we could have built an economic system or pursudent 190 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 1: economic system that would lead to greater satisfaction. I think 191 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: I think that's will put Joe, yes. I think here's 192 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:41,680 Speaker 1: the whole point. Economists know a lot about how to 193 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: improve equality within a society. We also know how to 194 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: make a more sustainable world built upon clean energy. It's 195 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: just in the United States for some reason, the Republicans 196 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 1: aren't really against this. They say no, no, no, that's 197 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 1: not the structure we want. And to be honest, now 198 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 1: we're even moving into a situation where economists aren't even 199 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: allowed to show their studies where we can. We have 200 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: so many studies that we know about how to move 201 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:15,559 Speaker 1: us from an economy that's just based upon more goods 202 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: and services which are not exactly what people necessarily want 203 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:23,319 Speaker 1: to be happier or to feel better. To an economy 204 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: where we can create meaningful jobs, we can create meaningful 205 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: experiences for people within a social and economic structure that 206 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: cares about everyone, not just average um income per person. 207 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 1: So if you were applying Buddhist economics to the real world, 208 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 1: can you can you give us an example of what 209 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: one like real Buddhist economic policy would be. Okay, that's 210 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 1: that's great, because actually we have eight steps to get 211 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 1: to a Buddhist economy, and the most important rule, once 212 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 1: again is by the government, where we would have more 213 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: progressive taxes, we would build jobs within the rust belt 214 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:14,680 Speaker 1: that allow people to basically develop their full potential. And 215 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 1: we would also make sure that all consumers are able 216 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: to move to clean energy, which is basically electricity based 217 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: upon renewable resources. So we would have the government setting 218 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: up and most of these policies are already in effect 219 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 1: in many countries around the world. It's just we're a 220 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: little slow in the US to getting on board. Then 221 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: we would have companies take one step further and say, okay, 222 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 1: we actually do need to create jobs that allow people 223 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 1: enough time to have family and community life. So we 224 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: want to have companies create jobs that aren't just based 225 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: upon the number of hours, but jobs that pay a 226 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: living wage and also provide time for people to care 227 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: for their families. So when I listen to this, it 228 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: all makes a lot of sense, But it sounds to 229 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: me like fairly straightforward leftist or progressive economic policies, or 230 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 1: at least it doesn't sound that much different. Is there 231 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: something distinct about, you know, as a playing devil's advocate here, 232 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: is there's something distinct about sort of as you see 233 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 1: in Buddhist economics that isn't sort of what you hear 234 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 1: um progressives typically talk about. Yes, in some ways that 235 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: because progressives have especially focused on inequality, and Buddhist economics says, no, 236 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 1: that's not enough inequality we want to reduce. But what 237 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: we really need to care about is our interconnection with 238 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 1: nature and sustainability. So many economists have actually seen and 239 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: talked and think about nature is just something out there 240 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 1: that used to increase consumption and that's not the way 241 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: we can actually move forward into a sustainable world as 242 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 1: we rebuild the infrastructure for clean energy. And then the 243 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 1: third part is economist think of, oh, we just need 244 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: economic growth, that's all we need to get going again. 245 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: But in fact, in Buddhist economics, and some economists of 246 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 1: course agree with this more generally, what what you have 247 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: to understand is that economic growth right now just means 248 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: more GDP on average, and it's been going to the rich. 249 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: It hasn't been going to everyone. So we used to 250 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 1: say in economics, well, if we have economic growth, the 251 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: rising tide brings up all ships. But that's not the 252 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 1: case now. So in Buddhist economics we were very specifically 253 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: saying we don't want economic growth that focuses on raising 254 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 1: income and consumption for basically the rich. But economic growth 255 00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 1: is something we care about that increases well being, and 256 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 1: we want to measure it that way. We've no longer 257 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: want a major economic performance is output per person, but 258 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: we want to measure it in a holistic way. And 259 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:12,399 Speaker 1: economists have lots of matrix we can use. We have 260 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 1: the Genuine Progress Indicator or the Better Life Index. We 261 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:18,679 Speaker 1: have many that we can use, but we need to 262 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: start using them so that economic growth is when we 263 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,719 Speaker 1: help the environment. Economic growth goes up when we reduce 264 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: an equality. Economic growth goes up when we give people 265 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 1: more time to spend with their families and communities, economic 266 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:36,920 Speaker 1: growth goes up. So when we look at it that way, 267 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: happiness goes with economic growth, as people feel like the 268 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:44,640 Speaker 1: things that they care about and are meaningful to them 269 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: are now important and are delivered through the economy. What 270 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:52,439 Speaker 1: if you get inequality and happiness levels? Like, is that 271 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 1: an issue? If some people are happier than others? Oh? 272 00:17:56,400 --> 00:18:01,159 Speaker 1: Like a second derivative, Yeah, I'm just curious. Could it 273 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,199 Speaker 1: be a problem? Mainly, what you want to think of 274 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: it this way, Tracy think of it is we want 275 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 1: to reduce suffering, So we we want everybody to be 276 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 1: happy in some way, but we aren't trying to compare 277 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: their happiness level. But we are trying to help the 278 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 1: people at the very bottom who are suffering for various reasons. 279 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 1: Often it's because they don't have enough food or or 280 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 1: clean water or what have you. But what we do 281 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: care about is that if your happiness goes up but 282 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,679 Speaker 1: just for a few people, but it goes down for 283 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: most people, then the economy is not producing well being. 284 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 1: That actually would be seen as is a decline and 285 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: well being. So what we want to do is increase 286 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: the well being of everyone and not just a few. 287 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: And when I say well being, well being, happiness were 288 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 1: there's somewhat interchangeable. What is the What is the best 289 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: thing to read for people who are more interested in 290 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: this if they wanted to, uh read a book that 291 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:04,120 Speaker 1: sort of explained Buddhist values that could potentially be applied 292 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:07,719 Speaker 1: to economic thinking, where would you recommend they start? Well, 293 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 1: I would recommend, of course, they start with my book 294 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:14,160 Speaker 1: Buddhist Economics, because we we I do go over basic 295 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:18,119 Speaker 1: Buddhism and how it applies to economics, and then I 296 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 1: explained the pre market economy and why we really it's 297 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 1: not producing what we want. And then we moved to 298 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,360 Speaker 1: the Buddhist economy, which is based upon a Martius Sin 299 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,679 Speaker 1: and Joe Stiglets and many economists, but we integrated. We 300 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 1: bring them together and say, now, what happens if we 301 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 1: bring together all the things that economists know but somewhat 302 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: practice in their little niches, how would that then structure 303 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: an economy that provides well being for everyone? Claire, what's 304 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 1: been the reception to the class that you're teaching at Berkeley? 305 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: Because I think I read somewhere that your students meditate 306 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: as part of the syllabus, and you also have the 307 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: involved of a Tibetan Buddhist priest. It sounds quite unusual. Well, 308 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:08,959 Speaker 1: Buddhism is experiential, as you pointed out earlier in economics 309 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,160 Speaker 1: as conceptual, so we need to bring them together. And 310 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 1: also the mindfulness movement of sitting. Everyone who who now 311 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:17,919 Speaker 1: knows that, Oh, it helps your brain. It sort of 312 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: helps you figure out who you are and how you 313 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: fit into the world. So yeah, we do some sitting 314 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: five to ten minutes. Um, we do field work where 315 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 1: the students go and actually go to a practice at 316 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: a at a Buddhist temple where they sit and have 317 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: a lesson and uh. And that's field work. So I 318 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:41,640 Speaker 1: want students to understand the experiential part of Buddhist economics 319 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,880 Speaker 1: as well as the conceptual part, because the conceptual part 320 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: is much easier to teach them. Um, you know, they 321 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:51,200 Speaker 1: all know how to do economics or they're learning at least. 322 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 1: And so the students actually, when you ask them at 323 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:57,440 Speaker 1: the end of class what was most important, they said, oh, 324 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: we love the experiential part. That was great. We also 325 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 1: love thinking outside the box and uh. And many of 326 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:06,879 Speaker 1: them have come back and said, do you know, it 327 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: has helped me so much to learn to quiet my 328 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:13,880 Speaker 1: mind and open my heart when we're sitting. And so 329 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 1: we the students love the class basically, and so um 330 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,919 Speaker 1: we have to rise in it. But hm, then they 331 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 1: say go out and help each other, you know, teacher friends, 332 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:28,880 Speaker 1: which they then do. You know, thinking about this sort 333 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 1: of current malaise, and you know, we accept that there 334 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,399 Speaker 1: is this deep unhappiness out there around the world. Something 335 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: that I've thought about is how our culture and our 336 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:43,239 Speaker 1: society really values. You know, if there's one thing that 337 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 1: our society really values, it's making money. And as long 338 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: as people are generally getting rich, and you certainly it 339 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: felt like everyone was getting rich in the nineties during 340 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:55,400 Speaker 1: the dot com bubble, and a lot of people felt 341 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: like they were getting rich in the two thousands, then 342 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: it feels like, you know, you're the individual getting rich 343 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,679 Speaker 1: and that society feels like they're achieving the goals and 344 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:09,439 Speaker 1: the values that society has it out for them. And now, 345 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: in the wake of the financial crisis, I wonder, you know, 346 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: people are maybe they've returned to jobs, but it doesn't 347 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: really feel like they're People don't feel like they're thriving 348 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,679 Speaker 1: and I wonder like if the issue is like we 349 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: don't have a thing that society is for besides being rich, 350 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: and that, you know, besides just anticipating what aspects of 351 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 1: an economy are going to make people unhappy, that it 352 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 1: really comes down to sort of these deep values that 353 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 1: we don't you know, there's not something bigger that people 354 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,120 Speaker 1: can pursue other than sort of individualism and their own 355 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: material well being, and that the sort of more spiritual 356 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 1: approach and understanding nana non material things is sort of 357 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,199 Speaker 1: the essence of why people are unhappy. Maybe I'm just 358 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 1: restating it, but I think this sort of really what 359 00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 1: you're talking about really does, I think speak to why 360 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 1: we see this rise and unhappiness after the economy really 361 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:07,399 Speaker 1: stalled out. Yes, I think that's really true, Joe, that 362 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,919 Speaker 1: people are looking for a meaningful life and the consumption 363 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 1: income are just one aspect of it, and they don't 364 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,959 Speaker 1: want to have their whole life focused on that because 365 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 1: otherwise you say, gee, I'm just working, but I need 366 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:26,440 Speaker 1: to live also, and I need Relationships are extraordinarily important 367 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 1: to people and how happy they are, and helping other 368 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: people in fact makes people much happier. So so we 369 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: know that we need to be able to bring these 370 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 1: all together, and we can within our economic structure. We 371 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: can't just any longer say oh, that's okay, but when 372 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,919 Speaker 1: they maybe you'll be rich. I have just one more question, 373 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: and then we have to let Claire go. Um. But 374 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:53,959 Speaker 1: it's that there is a theory out there right now, 375 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:56,880 Speaker 1: which is that if we allow the economy to keep 376 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,880 Speaker 1: working as efficiently as possible, if we develop as much 377 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:05,360 Speaker 1: technology as possible, will get everything automated. Output will be fantastic. 378 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: We'll have a bunch of robots doing all the work 379 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 1: for us, and we as human beings will be able 380 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:15,160 Speaker 1: to sit around and enjoy our leisure time. How does 381 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 1: that square with economics, and with Buddhist economics in particular, 382 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: right Well, I I know, I read all these are 383 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 1: my colleagues that are my here in various places, and 384 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,200 Speaker 1: I you know, I think we're a long way from that. 385 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,160 Speaker 1: But I do think that one of the wonderful things 386 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 1: about our increased productivity and technology is we could lower 387 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 1: the work week. And we can do that, but to 388 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: do that, we need to do it within a structured framework. 389 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:44,879 Speaker 1: We're minimum wages and transfers from capital to workers occurs 390 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 1: in a balanced market system, we can do all those things. 391 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 1: And in my book I talk about some of the 392 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 1: policies that are that are suggested and how we might 393 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: move to there. But it's a wonderful opportunity to think, 394 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 1: you know, we won't have to work as hard, we 395 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: won't have to work as many hours, and we can 396 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,439 Speaker 1: focus on our well being within our families and our 397 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 1: communities and our country. And that would be a wonderful 398 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:16,439 Speaker 1: way of seeing the economy delivering well being to everyone. Okay, 399 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 1: Claire Brown, Professor of Economics of u C. Berkeley, thank 400 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: you so much for joining us today. It was my 401 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: pleasure being an odd lot in talking with you. Thank you. So, Joe, 402 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: are you a convert to Buddhist economics? I think there's 403 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: real value here. I think that there is something uh. 404 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:49,439 Speaker 1: This idea that economics needs to find new ways of 405 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: measuring the well being of society beyond the traditional ones 406 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 1: is an important one. And this idea that perhaps there's 407 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 1: part of the deep unhappiness that a lot of people 408 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,199 Speaker 1: feel is as a result of an economy and society 409 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,399 Speaker 1: that prioritizes some of the wrong numbers, I think is 410 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 1: also true. So I think there is a there's a 411 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,679 Speaker 1: lot of merit to this approach. Yeah, I completely agree. 412 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 1: The only thing I'm a little bit frustrated with is 413 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: the policy recommendations, because, as you pointed out, a lot 414 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 1: of the Buddhist economic policies, so to speak, just sound 415 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: a lot like the traditional progressive policies that we've heard 416 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:32,720 Speaker 1: from economic thinkers for decades now. I think that's probably correct. 417 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I think, as a professor, Brown noted there 418 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,680 Speaker 1: or like a few different things beyond the focus on output, 419 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 1: and especially I thought that was a really powerful point 420 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 1: about the fallacy of growing the pie or growing GDP 421 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:51,200 Speaker 1: as a solution, because if the problem stems from inequality, 422 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 1: and if growing the pie, you know, if the wealthiest 423 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 1: get a greater share of that grown pie, then the 424 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 1: lower classes then even you could imagine a situation which 425 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 1: an expanded economy leads to less overall happiness by virtue 426 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 1: of the fact that it's more unequal. So I think, 427 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 1: you know, reframing the challenge outside of purely material things 428 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 1: is a hugely important endeavor, and I suspect that economics 429 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,359 Speaker 1: is kind of, you know, just at the beginning of 430 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,160 Speaker 1: rethinking the economy that way. But as you pointed out 431 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: in your last question, these these issues are coming fast 432 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: and furious, with all the concerns about robots and whether 433 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 1: we'll have any work and stuff like that, so it's 434 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 1: actually very timely. It's very timely to rethink these things. Yeah. 435 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 1: Did I ever tell you the story about when I 436 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,199 Speaker 1: met a Russian billionaire and his whole plan was to 437 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: encourage technological development to the point where humans wouldn't have 438 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: to work and we could all focus on our spiritual development. 439 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 1: That was his plan. Can we get him on a 440 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 1: future episode? Oh? Oh we should? Yes, Okay, al right, okay, 441 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: all right, I'm going to go work on that. And uh, 442 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 1: people should check out Claire's book which just came out, 443 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: Buddhist Economics, An Enlightened Approach to the Dismal Science. Thank 444 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:09,159 Speaker 1: you for tuning in to the latest edition of the 445 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,119 Speaker 1: Odd Lots Podcast. I'm Joe wisn't Thal. You can follow 446 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 1: me on Twitter at the Stalwart and I'm Tracy Alloway. 447 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: I'm on Twitter at Tracy Alloway. Thanks for listening.