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Speaker 1: Welcome back to she Pivots. I'm Hailey Kiyoko.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to she Pivots, the podcast where women share

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Speaker 2: bold career moves and personal turning points that changed everything.

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Speaker 2: I'm your host to Emily Tish Sussman. We have a

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Speaker 2: very special guest for today's episode. In honor of Pride,

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Speaker 2: we have the pop icon who has affectionately been dubbed

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Speaker 2: lesbian Jesus. Hailey Kyoko started her career as a kid

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Speaker 2: actor in commercials, playing drums before her feet really reached

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Speaker 2: the pedals. She went on to play Velma and Scooby

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Speaker 2: Doo and start in the Disney hit Lemonade Mouth. She

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Speaker 2: moved into singing, joining a girl group when solo, and

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Speaker 2: then became a pop star who rocketed to stardom when

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Speaker 2: her twenty eighteen song girls Like Girls became a queer anthem.

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Speaker 2: She's written two New York Times best selling novels, and

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Speaker 2: this month she made her feature film directorial debut. But

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Speaker 2: every one of those pivots traces back to one quiet,

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Speaker 2: complicated thing she's been carrying from the beginning. She knew

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Speaker 2: she was gay, and she looked around and didn't see

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Speaker 2: anyone who looked like her half Japanese queered both at once.

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Speaker 2: So she made the thing she never got to see

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Speaker 2: to help someone else feel seen in their own lonely moments.

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Speaker 2: We get into what it feels like to become a

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Speaker 2: community's icon practically overnight while you're still figuring yourself out.

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Speaker 2: She tells me about the high school heartbreak that twenty

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Speaker 2: years later turned into a feature film, and she tells

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Speaker 2: me about finding her fiance, Becka Tilly, who you may

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Speaker 2: have seen on The Bachelor. This is Hailey Kiyoko, and

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Speaker 2: this is how she pivots what is your name in

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Speaker 2: What Do You Do?

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Speaker 1: I'm Haley Kyoko and I'm a writer, musician and director.

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Speaker 3: Excellent. Okay, so now we're going to go back.

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Speaker 2: So you've been a performer since you were a little kids,

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Speaker 2: Like you were in commercials and drums and acting and music.

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Speaker 2: Was there ever a version of your life where you

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Speaker 2: weren't in the entertainment industry? Or you're always like this,

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Speaker 2: this is it. I'm going to be a performer of

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Speaker 2: so variety.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's always been that for me, Like I was

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Speaker 1: the kid doing dances with my friends in the living

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Speaker 1: room for my parents, my parents' friends, and writing songs

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Speaker 1: on the piano from a very young age.

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Speaker 4: So performing was always a thing for me.

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Speaker 2: Did you know where it was going to go? Or

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Speaker 2: you were like, this is my stage, and I think

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Speaker 2: about nothing else.

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Speaker 4: I didn't know where I was going to go.

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Speaker 1: I think initially, if we're going way way back, my

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Speaker 1: first dream was to be in the Blue Man group perfect.

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Speaker 4: I just really identified with.

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Speaker 1: The Blue Man and the drumming and the percussion and

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Speaker 1: the stage.

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Speaker 4: And then my second dream was Stomp the musical.

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Speaker 1: Oh Loved So I think very early on my dreams

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Speaker 1: were percussive forward, Like I started playing drums when I

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Speaker 1: was five and I was tap dancing, and so I

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Speaker 1: just I knew I wanted to do something with rhythm,

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Speaker 1: and then the dream progressed into singing and sync no

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Speaker 1: strings attached. At what was the Staples Center which is

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Speaker 1: now the Crypto Arena, I remember seeing them dancing and

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Speaker 1: they had like fake money falling from the sky and

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Speaker 1: the girls were screaming, and I was like, oh my.

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Speaker 4: Gosh, I think I would like ten or something.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, this is what I want to

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Speaker 1: do and this is who I want to be, And

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Speaker 1: I think that began this very long journey in music

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Speaker 1: in general.

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Speaker 3: Did you like specifically want to be them?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well I was also I was very gay, and

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Speaker 1: so I like I wanted to be them, so like

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Speaker 1: I wanted to be on that stage singing and dancing

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Speaker 1: and having the girls screaming and being like this cool

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Speaker 1: person that people liked, I like admired that.

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Speaker 2: Did you try to put on their actual shows? Like

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Speaker 2: you were like, these are my stuff's animals lined up?

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, no, I didn't have stuffed animals. I was

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Speaker 1: like I had human beings. We were doing like, hey,

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Speaker 1: come over Thursday night. We're doing dance performance in the

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Speaker 1: living room. And it's so funny because obviously now that

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Speaker 1: I'm a director, I look back at those moments and

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Speaker 1: I was like I was directing, I was like, this

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Speaker 1: is the show, this is how it's going to go,

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Speaker 1: this is the vision. You know, we're going to do

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Speaker 1: a five six, seven eight, we're step change here. So

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Speaker 1: I think that just was part of my personality and

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Speaker 1: there was never a world where I was going to

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Speaker 1: be doing anything else.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, but you were also very entrepreneurial, Like you

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Speaker 2: started selling drum charts to music stores.

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Speaker 4: That's factual.

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Speaker 1: I was really obsessed with business, so I would unfortunately

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Speaker 1: use all my dad's printing ink, and before I even

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Speaker 1: had a business, I printed out business cards. Before I

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Speaker 1: even had a band, I printed my band cards and

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Speaker 1: I put up flyers around the.

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Speaker 4: Park join my band.

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Speaker 1: No one called the home line unfortunately, so the band

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Speaker 1: thing went out the window. But yeah, I was like

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Speaker 1: doing drum charts and selling it to local like music stores,

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Speaker 1: to like complicated by Avril Levine, I think I did

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Speaker 1: swing swing by all American rejects. So I think very

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Speaker 1: early on I've been somewhat.

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Speaker 4: Of a hustler.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, very much.

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Speaker 4: So I didn't have a product, but I was.

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Speaker 3: But you had a business card. You're like, uh, I'm ready,

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Speaker 3: I'm ready to be called.

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Speaker 2: So you started a garage band at sixteen that was

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Speaker 2: named after your grandfather. Yes, So what did makeing music

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Speaker 2: with your own band feel like? At that point? When

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Speaker 2: you tried the band didn't work, and then you'd already

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Speaker 2: started doing like commercial and acting work, so.

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Speaker 4: People didn't join my band.

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Speaker 1: And then in high school I ended up becoming friends

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Speaker 1: with these guys and I basically forced them to learn

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Speaker 1: an instrument and become my band and we named it

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Speaker 1: after my grandpa, Ahiti, and we won Battle of the Bands,

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Speaker 1: and that was like the real beginning of having just

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Speaker 1: kind of like this band feeling and vibe. I kind

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Speaker 1: of wrote more like cold Play esque type music back then.

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Speaker 1: While that was happening, I was trying to figure out

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Speaker 1: how to get into the music industry, and acting kind

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Speaker 1: of became this opportunity where I got to wait for

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Speaker 1: hours and hours that these calls for these commercials, but

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Speaker 1: these commercials would need like a musician, so I'd basically

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Speaker 1: go an audition. One of my first jobs, I booked

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Speaker 1: a Kmart commercial and I was playing the bass. And

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Speaker 1: then I booked a Cinnamonto's Crunch commercial and I was

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Speaker 1: playing the guitar. And so I got to like pretend

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Speaker 1: to be a rock star and pretend to be a

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Speaker 1: musician through the lens of being an actor, and so that.

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Speaker 4: Kind of helps me.

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Speaker 1: I mean it's always like, how do you even how

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Speaker 1: does one even get on the TV screen?

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Speaker 4: How does one even do this? I was a musical theater,

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Speaker 4: I had the band.

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Speaker 1: I was going to these auditions and just trying to

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Speaker 1: find a way, you know, back in the day around

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Speaker 1: that age, I'd have my dad drive me to the

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Speaker 1: Pig and Whistle in Hollywood Boulevard and I would do

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Speaker 1: open mic speed. You have to like pay or you

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Speaker 1: have to like be like we're gonna have fifty people

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Speaker 1: show up to It was like a pay for play

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Speaker 1: kind of thing. We didn't have TikTok at that time

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Speaker 1: to be able to access people, and so you're just

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Speaker 1: literally on the streets passing out flyers. Right.

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Speaker 3: There were gatekeepers.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that has been I think one of the things

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Speaker 2: it's so amazing, especially for artists, about the democratization of

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Speaker 2: social media. It's also democratized access access to audiences, whereas

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Speaker 2: before you probably had to try to conform in some

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Speaker 2: way because there were gatekeepers like to what they wanted.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, I mean still to this day.

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Speaker 2: The hustle was always there for Haley. So when Vitamin

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Speaker 2: C came calling with a spot in an all girl group,

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Speaker 2: she said yes and got her first real look inside

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Speaker 2: the machine. So you were approached by Vitamin C to

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Speaker 2: join the Stunners when you were still in high school.

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Speaker 1: I again was trying to get into the music industry auditions,

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Speaker 1: and then I did that for like a year or

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Speaker 1: two and I learned a lot. It was It was

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Speaker 1: a great experience. I got to learn what I like,

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Speaker 1: I got to learn what I don't like. Definitely got

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Speaker 1: to experience a little bit more of like the record

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Speaker 1: label industry through that lens.

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Speaker 2: Say more about that, Like what about the record label industry?

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Speaker 2: It's really something I know almost nothing about. You know

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Speaker 2: a lot of things, that's not one of them.

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Speaker 4: You know, I was young.

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Speaker 1: I think I was like nineteen eighteen or nine, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, maybe I started at seventeen around that age,

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Speaker 1: and so you know, you got these four or five

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Speaker 1: girls performing these songs dressed up up for the male gaze.

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Speaker 1: It was not necessarily something that I wanted to pursue.

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Speaker 1: And I also was in the closet, so I had

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Speaker 1: a really hard time navigating, Oh, I'm supposed to be

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Speaker 1: like performing for the male gaze, but like I'm a

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Speaker 1: lesbian and I don't want to do that. So there

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Speaker 1: were a lot of moments that I felt really uncomfortable. Granted,

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Speaker 1: my hair was in a pixie cut with a bleach streak,

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Speaker 1: so the closet was glass. It was hard for me

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Speaker 1: to navigate, but I learned how to perform in heels.

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Speaker 4: So that was cool.

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Speaker 2: I'm guessing you would actually started younger if I'm guessing

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Speaker 2: you yeah, and your performances.

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Speaker 3: You'd been practicing for that one for a long time.

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Speaker 4: I like sneakers now more so.

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Speaker 2: What do you feel like you got out of that

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Speaker 2: that prepared you for the next thing?

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Speaker 1: I think I learned that the music industry is really

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Speaker 1: tough and it's really hard to get into. I think

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Speaker 1: it prepared me to really challenge myself to figure out

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Speaker 1: what sound I wanted, who I was as an artist,

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Speaker 1: And so when that ended, I finally was able to

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Speaker 1: pursue my solo career, Like what does that look like?

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Speaker 1: Am I singing covers? Am I writing original music? Am

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Speaker 1: I on the guitar? Is there no guitar?

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Speaker 4: Is it track? Is it rock?

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Speaker 1: And so that began the exploration of who am I

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Speaker 1: beyond just singing on the guitar in my bedroom, pining

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Speaker 1: and yearning after girls, which was so much of my

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Speaker 1: identity and music before.

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Speaker 4: You know, and then when you record music, the possibilities

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Speaker 4: are endless.

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Speaker 1: The horizon looks different and you're like, Okay, what do

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Speaker 1: I look like when I'm actually physically recording music or sound.

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Speaker 2: Like and you have this acting career going in parallel, right,

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Speaker 2: so like at the same time was about like Scooby Doo.

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Speaker 4: I was one of the first Asian Velma's thank you

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Speaker 4: so much.

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Speaker 2: Yes, okay, So you said that you almost did an

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Speaker 2: audition for it because of your concerns about image.

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Speaker 3: To like, talk me through that.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's sad like to think that I grew

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Speaker 1: up in a society and so many other people do

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Speaker 1: where I almost stopped myself from auditioning for Velma because

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Speaker 1: I was part Asian is really sad, and then had

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Speaker 1: I not gone out for it, I would have never

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Speaker 1: gotten it.

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Speaker 4: And I went out for it and I.

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Speaker 3: Booked the role.

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Speaker 1: So it's interesting how much we as people hold ourselves

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Speaker 1: back due to the narrative that society is feeding us.

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Speaker 1: I grew up during a time where Asian people played

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Speaker 1: the sidekick in the best front, so it was really

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Speaker 1: hard for me to believe that I could have main

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Speaker 1: character energy, so to speak, because I never got to

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Speaker 1: see that. But you know, it's seeing as believing. So

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Speaker 1: when you don't see people who look like you or

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Speaker 1: feel the way you feel successfully in the mainstream as

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Speaker 1: the main character that's what you believe.

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Speaker 4: Oh, I'm not the main character.

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Speaker 2: Do you remember the first time you saw a character

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Speaker 2: that really resonated with you and made you see beyond

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Speaker 2: the possibility you had before.

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Speaker 1: I think it was Alice Woo's movie that half of it.

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Speaker 4: I think it was on Netflix. This was years. This

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Speaker 4: is like I'm in my twenties. I think when this

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Speaker 4: came out and Leah Lewis was the lead, and I

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Speaker 4: remember going, oh my gosh, she got to be the lead,

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Speaker 4: like I've never seen that before. I'll never forget that.

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Speaker 1: It was a really cool, cool moment to be like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you know what it is. It's someone said yes to this,

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Speaker 1: and that's really powerful.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Have you ever gotten to meet her and tell her?

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Speaker 4: I actually did.

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Speaker 1: She came to one of my dinners for Girls Like Girls.

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Speaker 1: She is so wonderful and kind and talented. It's been

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Speaker 1: really cool because that was her Girls Like Girls, her moment.

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Speaker 1: And then now I have these two up and coming

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Speaker 1: young actors in my film.

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Speaker 4: Who were both half Asian, and this is their moment.

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Speaker 4: You know, my lead she was eighteen when we shot this,

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Speaker 4: and I'm pretty sure Leo was, you know, around that

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Speaker 4: age when she did hers too, so it's pretty wild.

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Speaker 2: The Stunners didn't last and the same year the group split,

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Speaker 2: Hailey lost her grandfather, the man she'd named her very

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Speaker 2: first band after. What came out of that time was

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Speaker 2: a song that would quietly change everything. We'll get there

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Speaker 2: right after the break. I think this is probably around

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Speaker 2: the same time. But your grandfather, who had been so

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Speaker 2: important that you named your band after him, passed away

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Speaker 2: in twenty eleven, which was the same year that Stunner's split.

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Speaker 4: I think that was just life happening.

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Speaker 1: I remember being really busy at that time, and I

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Speaker 1: flew up to Colonna, Canada, which is where my grandpa lived,

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Speaker 1: and I did a solo trip and I got to

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Speaker 1: hang out with him and my grandma and get to

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Speaker 1: spend time with him before he passed. That was a

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Speaker 1: really special trip, which once we talk about the movie,

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Speaker 1: you'll realize why it's become such a full circle thing.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I'm so excited.

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Speaker 2: So your early solo music videos, they were directed by you,

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Speaker 2: and they centered on crewman stories. At the time, did

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Speaker 2: it feel like were you intentionally going in to take

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Speaker 2: a risk or you were just saying, like, this is

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Speaker 2: the only way I know how to do this.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's my life being in love with women

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Speaker 1: navigating that I can't really remove that from myself. I

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Speaker 1: didn't enter the industry thinking I was going to focus

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Speaker 1: on my truth. To be honest, that was not an

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Speaker 1: intentional thing. And then when I wrote Girls Like Girls

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Speaker 1: in twenty I think fourteen and we released in twenty fifteen,

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Speaker 1: that was the first time I was really open with

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Speaker 1: myself with another writer to be like, hey, I remember

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Speaker 1: she asked me like, what are you most afraid about

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Speaker 1: to write about?

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Speaker 4: And I was like crying, and I was.

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Speaker 1: Like, I'm well, lesbian, I like girls, but I never

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Speaker 1: write about it.

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Speaker 4: She was like, why don't we write about it today?

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Speaker 4: And I was like, that sounds so scary. That was

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Speaker 4: the inception of Girls Like Girls.

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Speaker 3: That is hitting something that's so real for so many people.

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Speaker 2: Is that some people's response like they like to be disruptive,

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Speaker 2: and some people just want to be and aren't drawn

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Speaker 2: towards it. And it sounds like you kind of went

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Speaker 2: through the evolution of all of those feelings and identities.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think my authentic truth naturally was disruptive. Like

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Speaker 1: when I finished the song and we did the music video.

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Speaker 1: I was like, I really want to watch a video

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Speaker 1: where you see two girls falling in love and they

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Speaker 1: end up together, And like, I didn't really have a

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Speaker 1: lot of access to that kind of representation. And I'm

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Speaker 1: sure it was out there, but it wasn't easily accessible.

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Speaker 1: And it really kind of threw me when I released

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Speaker 1: the music video because I really didn't think people were

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Speaker 1: going to watch it. Like I had nine thousand subscribers

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Speaker 1: on YouTube, nobody knew who I was. Nobody wanted to

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Speaker 1: premiere the music video. Everyone said it was risky or

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Speaker 1: too Niche sure to this and to that, and then

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Speaker 1: it found its community. It found millions and millions of

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Speaker 1: people who felt the way I felt. I grew up

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Speaker 1: in Los Angeles, which is a very liberal community and area,

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Speaker 1: but I still had such a hard time finding my

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Speaker 1: community and finding my people growing up in a predominantly

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Speaker 1: white community, never being Asian enough, never being white enough.

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Speaker 1: I didn't really have any queer friends, and if I did,

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Speaker 1: I didn't know about it. And so this music video

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Speaker 1: became kind of this message in a bottle to find

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Speaker 1: this community of people across the globe that felt seen.

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Speaker 4: That was not an intentional thing.

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Speaker 1: My intentionality was to try to be honest and come out.

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Speaker 2: Do you remember as it started to gain in popularity,

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Speaker 2: like as I started to blow up, was there a

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Speaker 2: moment or a couple of moments they were like, oh, oh.

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Speaker 3: This is huge.

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Speaker 1: Kept waiting for it to die down, like we're talking

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Speaker 1: to hit five hundred thousand views that I was like,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to be your I was like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: you know, like that's just for a perspective. And then

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Speaker 1: I hit one million views. Then I hit two and

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Speaker 1: then I was like, oh my gosh, maybe we'll hit

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Speaker 1: three million, maybe we'll hit four million. Every week it

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Speaker 1: would just go up a million million, and I just

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Speaker 1: kept checking it. I kept waiting for it to almost

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Speaker 1: like die, and it never did. It's literally one of

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Speaker 1: those cheesy scenes that I probably acted out a million

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Speaker 1: times in other movies and stuff. That is what was happening.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, oh my gosh, this is going viral.

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Speaker 1: It's weird to think of myself at that moment and

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Speaker 1: to think about where I'm at now.

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Speaker 4: It's been a really long journey.

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Speaker 1: At that time, I wasn't confident enough to put myself

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Speaker 1: in the music video because that was even more vulnerable.

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Speaker 1: I had never written a song about a girl, and

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Speaker 1: now I've directed eleven.

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Speaker 4: Music videos about girls.

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Speaker 1: I have multiple albums about women, and now I've directed

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Speaker 1: a feature film that's going to be in theaters about

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Speaker 1: this time in my life that I.

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Speaker 4: Was so scared to share with the world.

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Speaker 1: And now I'm so confident and proud to share that

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Speaker 1: with the world.

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Speaker 2: The thing that you were most nervous about, as you

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Speaker 2: said to the songwriter that you were working with, like

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Speaker 2: the thing is now actually the thing that you're most

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Speaker 2: proud of. It sounds like like at first it had

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Speaker 2: defined you in being scared, and like now it's to

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Speaker 2: find you in a really positive way.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I was leading with fear, and now I'll lead

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Speaker 4: with confidence and love for myself.

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Speaker 2: Girls Like Girls was the beginning of a new era

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Speaker 2: for Haley. Her debut album, Expectations, made twenty eighteen, the

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Speaker 2: year everything seemed to land at once, and she wasn't

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Speaker 2: the only one. Twenty eighteen became known as twenty gayteen,

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Speaker 2: a stretch where queer artists were breaking into the mainstream

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Speaker 2: and being celebrated out loud for exactly who they were,

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Speaker 2: and Hailey was right at the front of it. Your

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Speaker 2: debut album, Expectations, came out in twenty eighteen, the same

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Speaker 2: year you won the Push Artists of the Year at

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Speaker 2: the Tvvmas, and you've performed on stage with Taylor Swept

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Speaker 2: for the first time.

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Speaker 3: Do you now think like, now I'm going to get

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Speaker 3: my instinct stage moment.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, twenty eighteen, which we call twenty gayteen, was definitely

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Speaker 1: one of the best years of my life and career

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Speaker 1: for sure. It was the culmination of working towards my

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Speaker 1: debut album. It was the first time I was signed

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Speaker 1: to a record label and getting to direct all these

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Speaker 1: music videos, and it really felt like my debut to

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Speaker 1: the world in the most authentic way.

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Speaker 4: So it was like the coolest thing.

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Speaker 1: That award at the MTV Music Awards was voted by

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Speaker 1: the fans.

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Speaker 4: That was like so extra special. My fan base.

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Speaker 1: I've been around, but I'm not like selling out arenas

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Speaker 1: by any means, you know.

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Speaker 4: I think at that time I was still up and coming.

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Speaker 1: So it was a really really exciting time and I

390
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Speaker 1: felt like everything was coming together for like my musical

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Speaker 1: dres and aspirations.

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Speaker 4: I think of twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 1: As a really beautiful highlight and in my journey there

394
00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:09,679
Speaker 1: were just a lot of amazing things that happened. I

395
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Speaker 1: got to go on tour, I got to do a

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Speaker 1: soul Out tour and the US and Europe, and got

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Speaker 1: to perform with Taylor, which was so cool. I got

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Speaker 1: to open for Panic at the disco. I felt really

399
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Speaker 1: supported in the music industry at that moment in my journey.

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Speaker 1: That was my first release with a major record label.

401
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Speaker 1: But it was different from the Stunners and all that stuff.

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Speaker 1: It's very like, oh, this.

403
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Speaker 4: Is like I might become a musician. This is really cool.

404
00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:44,160
Speaker 1: It's really hard to have kind of like financial and

405
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Speaker 1: public success sync.

406
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Speaker 3: Why is that.

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Speaker 1: I don't think a lot of people know that artists

408
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Speaker 1: are the CEO and boss. So you pay for everything.

409
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Speaker 1: So when you go on tour, you're paying for the bus,

410
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Speaker 1: you're paying for sixteen employees, you're paying for per diems,

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Speaker 1: you're paying for literally everything. And as the industry has

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Speaker 1: evolved into twenty twenty six, unless you're the top one percent,

413
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Speaker 1: record labels are not paying for tour support and artists

414
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Speaker 1: have to do it all themselves. I'm sure as you've seen,

415
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Speaker 1: so many artists have had to cancel tours and downsize,

416
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Speaker 1: and we're in a recession. There's a lot going on

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Speaker 1: in the world. It's really hard to sustain. I remember

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Speaker 1: when I was young, my parents were like, it's one

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Speaker 1: thing to be an artist. It's another thing to be

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Speaker 1: able to be an artist for a long time and

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Speaker 1: to be able to create longevity and sustainability. I never

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Speaker 1: really understood that until obviously being in the industry for

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Speaker 1: I don't know how many years. It's been a lot

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Speaker 1: of divs that have to happen to stay in the industry,

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Speaker 1: that's for sure.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And what was your parents' experience with that? Well,

427
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Speaker 3: both of.

428
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Speaker 4: My parents were artists.

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Speaker 1: My mom was a nice skating choreographer and still is,

430
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Speaker 1: and my dad was a comedian, so they knew what

431
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Speaker 1: it was like to make money and then to not

432
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Speaker 1: have money for a long time and to not know

433
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Speaker 1: when the next check was going to come. All in

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00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,960
Speaker 1: the sake of art. You know, when you're an artist,

435
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Speaker 1: you have to express yourself.

436
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Speaker 4: It's like part of who you are.

437
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:14,399
Speaker 2: How do you feel like it informed the way that

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Speaker 2: you approach the business side.

439
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Speaker 1: My dream was to be stable, like mentally stable, financially stable,

440
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:25,080
Speaker 1: everything stable. It definitely informed me that if I was

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Speaker 1: going to pursue a career in music, that I needed

442
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Speaker 1: to find a way to not be so vulnerable.

443
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,639
Speaker 4: You don't really have control when the next check comes.

444
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,480
Speaker 1: In twenty gay teen was amazing and it was a

445
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,439
Speaker 1: really beautiful moment in my music career. And then after

446
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:45,800
Speaker 1: that it all got really hard, got really hard. Labels

447
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:48,840
Speaker 1: weren't paying for music videos. I was working on my

448
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 1: next album. Then there was the pandemic. Meanwhile, all during

449
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:55,119
Speaker 1: all of this, I had started the movie Journey in

450
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:59,679
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, So my mind started getting a little distracted

451
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:01,880
Speaker 1: of like, I really want to direct this movie.

452
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:04,720
Speaker 4: How does one make a movie? How does a queer

453
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:06,560
Speaker 4: woman of color make a movie?

454
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:07,639
Speaker 3: How do you.

455
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:08,399
Speaker 4: Even do that?

456
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,359
Speaker 1: So I'm kind of taking that journey on as I'm

457
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 1: navigating the music industry, the pandemic, all these things, And

458
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,919
Speaker 1: so the music side got less fun because it was

459
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,399
Speaker 1: really hard. I couldn't go on tour, I couldn't release

460
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:25,720
Speaker 1: an album. I didn't have the financing to do things.

461
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,160
Speaker 1: And once you do things, I got a certain level

462
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,159
Speaker 1: You creatively always want to continue, you don't want to

463
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 1: go backwards. And for so long I had created art

464
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:39,160
Speaker 1: through favors, and you know, after ten years of doing that,

465
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 1: you can't do that anymore. And so when that doesn't

466
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,400
Speaker 1: connect with the business side and the labels support and

467
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,720
Speaker 1: the finance of it all, it.

468
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:50,639
Speaker 4: Starts to get really, really hard.

469
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,920
Speaker 2: How did you respond when it started to get hard,

470
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:55,800
Speaker 2: Like did you start to scale down and do things

471
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 2: like more quietly on your own or you just kind

472
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:00,719
Speaker 2: of left music and went into into movies.

473
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,399
Speaker 1: I'm going from one hardship to the next stardship. You know,

474
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 1: I continue to write music. I'm too Sensitive for the

475
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 1: Shit was an amazing EP that I was super proud

476
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,640
Speaker 1: of and tried to stay super creative, but I definitely

477
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,639
Speaker 1: started getting distracted and in wanting to direct this movie

478
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 1: and get this movie made. That journey started to get closer.

479
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:22,879
Speaker 1: In twenty twenty, I thought I was going to shoot

480
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,880
Speaker 1: the movie. Then it didn't happen. Twenty twenty one, thought

481
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 1: I was going to shoot the movie, didn't happen, and

482
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,119
Speaker 1: I started putting everything on pause because I was like,

483
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:31,639
Speaker 1: I'm going to go shoot this movie, and when I do,

484
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 1: I'm going to be unavailable. So I couldn't really like

485
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,199
Speaker 1: plan things. And when you do music, you got to

486
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,639
Speaker 1: plan your tour like a year in advance at least.

487
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,919
Speaker 1: So it all started getting a little cloudy. I was

488
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 1: craving creativity and I didn't know if the movie was

489
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 1: ever going to get made. So I decided to write

490
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 1: a book and write my dream version. This is another pivot, right,

491
00:24:56,119 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 1: like the movie is not happening, the music is looking hard,

492
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,119
Speaker 1: and I started writing the Whying of of Girls Like Girls,

493
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 1: which is like the dream version of the story. I

494
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,119
Speaker 1: started putting all my energy into that, where I was

495
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,399
Speaker 1: just like, if I die tomorrow, at least the story

496
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 1: of Cooley and Sonya will live on and we'll reach

497
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 1: a fourteen year old in Idaho or a thirty five

498
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 1: year old navigating their identity.

499
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 3: Writing a novel sounds extremely hard to me.

500
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's not none of this. None of it's easy.

501
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:30,719
Speaker 4: I definitely work harder, not smarter.

502
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 2: But was that the thing that kept you going, like

503
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 2: thinking about what the impact would be.

504
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:37,399
Speaker 4: I wasn't thinking about what the impact would be.

505
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 1: I was just thinking about trying to make someone else's

506
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 1: life easier. And it shouldn't be this hard to have

507
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:49,679
Speaker 1: representation and to share stories that are not heteronormative narratives.

508
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 4: I watch videos of people going like, oh, it's Pride month.

509
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,880
Speaker 4: You know, what are your favorite queer movies for sapphag

510
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 4: women and for them to be the lead and to

511
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 4: be pee like, the list just gets so small. So

512
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 4: that's always just been my drive is to be like,

513
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 4: if I don't do this, who will. I felt like

514
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 4: I couldn't give up.

515
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:12,959
Speaker 1: I wanted to give up a bajillion times, and if

516
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 1: I would take pauses and walk away from it, but

517
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,160
Speaker 1: there was just something in me that was like I

518
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 1: have to. It felt like my purpose had shifted. It

519
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 1: went from oh, I want to be a performer like

520
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:28,719
Speaker 1: in sync to I want to tell stories and world

521
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:32,919
Speaker 1: build and I want to help people feel lighter and

522
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 1: I want to help people's journeys. And so that's always

523
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 1: been like my driving force in all of this.

524
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 2: One of the things that I think is so remarkably

525
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 2: thoughtful of the way that you designed the covers of

526
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,439
Speaker 2: your novels is that they're designed to be removable. Instead,

527
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 2: if somebody's reading in a public space, they don't feel

528
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 2: like it's safe for them to be reading reading your book,

529
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,640
Speaker 2: they can read it essentially anonymously.

530
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 3: Is that something that you came up with yourself.

531
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:57,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was just thinking about my sixteen year old

532
00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 1: self and I wasn't confident in who I was.

533
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 4: And I don't want the title girls Like Girls.

534
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,880
Speaker 1: To stop someone from being able to read about themselves

535
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 1: or seeing themselves represented. If you're on the journey to

536
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 1: have the cover saying girls Like Girls amazing, and if

537
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 1: you're maybe not even safe to read it in a space,

538
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 1: you can take the cover off and it can be

539
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:22,640
Speaker 1: a little more ominous.

540
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 4: There was always like a moment back in.

541
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 1: The day during twenty eighteen, more people instead of asking

542
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:29,880
Speaker 1: if people were queer, they'd be like, do you listen

543
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 1: to Haley Kyoko?

544
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,719
Speaker 4: And so I became this psych symbol of outing. I

545
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,680
Speaker 4: have allies, I have ally supporters who I love. But

546
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 4: I thought about that when I was finishing the book,

547
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,880
Speaker 4: and you know, I want people to feel safe to

548
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:48,640
Speaker 4: explore themselves and do it on their own time.

549
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 2: Becoming a symbol for a whole community is one experience.

550
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 2: Quietly sorting out your own heart is another. When we

551
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 2: come back, we'll hear from Haley about her own journey

552
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 2: of self acceptance and how she ended up with her

553
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 2: fiancee Becca be Right.

554
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:07,880
Speaker 3: Back.

555
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 2: It's kind of a heavy weight almost to say, like

556
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 2: I'm out and then like yourself, like navigate your own

557
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,159
Speaker 2: dating life and like navigate your own even like in

558
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,119
Speaker 2: your own family relationships and like friendship relationships, Like how

559
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 2: did you navigate all of that personally?

560
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 3: For yourself?

561
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: I did it very hidden. I didn't share. I think

562
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 1: I came out a couple of times to my parents.

563
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 1: I told a couple of friends, but up until my

564
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 1: early twenties, it was definitely in the closet for sure.

565
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 1: So it was a very silent experience. And that's why

566
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 1: when you watch Girls Like Girls the movie, it's like

567
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 1: a lot of it is not even through dialogue, it's

568
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,719
Speaker 1: just through the glance, the touch, because a lot of

569
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 1: my experience was like in my brain.

570
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 4: And also who wasn't like.

571
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 2: Spoken about Yeah, post girls Like Girls, I mean you

572
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 2: must have had girls throwing themselves to you. But how

573
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 2: did you start to choose who you wanted to go

574
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 2: out with and how you wanted to initiate those relationships?

575
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: Well, people were not throwing themselves on me. Let's just

576
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 1: get the record straight. I present confident, but I'm very

577
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 1: shy and I will not make the first move.

578
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 3: Okay.

579
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 1: The only reason why I'm engaged. Congratulations, thank you is

580
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: because back I made.

581
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 4: The first move.

582
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 3: Okay, she did well.

583
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 1: I never got to go to prom with my crush.

584
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 1: I think I'm wanted my first date in my twenties.

585
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 1: Like a lot of queer people talk about how our adolescens,

586
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 1: our teen experience becomes in our twenties, it's very delayed

587
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 1: because we are not either safe or have the ability to.

588
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:49,959
Speaker 4: Explore ourselves in that way.

589
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 1: So I had a very delayed experience, and you realize

590
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 1: that you have to love yourself first before you can

591
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 1: love anyone else, right, And what's been so beautiful about

592
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 1: this journey is Girls Like Girls. The movie captures this

593
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 1: time in my life that really set the tone for

594
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 1: the next ten years of my experience where I really

595
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: struggled with self love, self worth, identity, not feeling just

596
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 1: seen and worthy, and whether you're queer or not, whoever

597
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 1: you love.

598
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 4: Every person has that one memory and moment we.

599
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 1: Are so scared to find out if they like you

600
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 1: back or not, or you're like, are we getting married

601
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 1: or not? Are we going to be in a committed

602
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 1: relationship or now, Like everyone's had that breaking point where

603
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 1: I was like, enough is enough?

604
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 4: I need to know the answer.

605
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 1: Even though it's so specific to my experience, it's so universal.

606
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 4: So this movie really captures that for me.

607
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 1: And it's really cool to be engaged in in a loving,

608
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 1: healthy relationship to know that it can happen, and you

609
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 1: can go through the love triangles and the hardship and

610
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 1: the toxic relationships, and you can work on yourself and

611
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 1: do therapy and ride in your journal and find a

612
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: person who does value you and who makes the first

613
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 1: move and makes you not question your worth as a

614
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 1: woman or a person. And everyone deserves to feel that way.

615
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 3: Okay, so how did you and Becca meet and what

616
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 3: was her first move?

617
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,239
Speaker 1: I met her talking about twenty eighteen. I met her

618
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 1: at My Expectations album release party, and she was trying

619
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 1: to hug me up with her younger sister because she

620
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 1: was from the Bachelor and hadn't dated women, but she had,

621
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 1: you know, a core sister, and so she was trying

622
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 1: to like cook me up with her.

623
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 4: And I was obviously interested in Becca.

624
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 1: And then so she set up like drinks a couple

625
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 1: days later, and the sister had to bail and so

626
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 1: Becca went instead. So then We had a date for

627
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 1: like six hours, a date in my eyes, you know,

628
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 1: and then the next day Becca kissed me, so that

629
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 1: would be considered the first move.

630
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 3: I would consider that the first move.

631
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 1: Yes, she kissed me, and then I left for tour.

632
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 1: We did long distance for a while, and I actually

633
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 1: wrote my second book, or There's Room for Us, inspired

634
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 1: by Our mEq, because Our Meiq was so interesting and

635
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 1: unique and it's like set in like the eighteen hundreds

636
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 1: and stuff, because I'm like obsessed with pride and prejudice

637
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 1: and all, you know, little women, all those books, and

638
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 1: so it's.

639
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 4: Really fun to tell our story like through the lens

640
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 4: of like if you could be queer in the eighteen hundreds.

641
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,280
Speaker 3: And there for sure were like they're for sure people

642
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 3: who were.

643
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, but like in the real world, you can't have

644
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 1: a happy ending in the eighteen hundreds as a lesbian.

645
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 1: And so when I was writing that book, which was

646
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 1: my second book, I was like, I need to alter

647
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 1: reality because I need a hopeful ending. So I basically

648
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 1: wrote it where you can be gay, but women aren't equal,

649
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: which duh, we still aren't equal. So two gay men

650
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 1: can inherit Land and continue the family line but two

651
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 1: women can't. So there's still societal pressure for someone in

652
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 1: the family to marry a man or to have a son.

653
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 4: And that was a really interesting to explore too. But anyways,

654
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 4: a lot of relevant. I'm always trying to.

655
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: Find ways to bring my life into a fantasy land.

656
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,239
Speaker 3: Well I think it's been quite successful. When are you

657
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 3: getting married?

658
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 1: We're hoping to start planning after the movie Craze. You

659
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 1: just never know, like with a movie, once it's released,

660
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 1: if you're going to continue working on the movie, if

661
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 1: it's going to go overseas, if there's international plans. So

662
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: we're just kind of like on pause until we figure

663
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 1: out what the rest of the year looks like and

664
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 1: then we'll go into to planning back as the best.

665
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 1: And it's been really special to have a partner throughout

666
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 1: this process. We've been together for eight years and this

667
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 1: process has been ten years, so she's almost been She

668
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 1: was like, what are we going to talk about now

669
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 1: once the movie's over? That's like literally, I was like,

670
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 1: this has been my whole personality, my whole life.

671
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 4: So that's been really special.

672
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 1: As you know, it's just like you have your highs

673
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 1: and lows and to get to go to the finish

674
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 1: line with her and release this film and get to

675
00:33:57,800 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 1: give this film to everyone, like this is my gift

676
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 1: to the community, and it's not mine anymore, it's theirs.

677
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, do you think of post wedding? Have you guys

678
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 2: talked about having kids? It's something you want to do,

679
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 2: not want to do.

680
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 1: We enjoy being ants currently. We love that life and

681
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,839
Speaker 1: that's kind of where we're at right now. So we

682
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 1: love traveling and being ants and also you know, doing

683
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 1: what we do.

684
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 4: So we'll see. But right now it's movie and then

685
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 4: a wedding.

686
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 3: Fair enough, I have three kids and that life sounds delightful.

687
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 2: It took high school heartbreak, ten years of hard work,

688
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 2: and a number one best selling novel to finally help

689
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 2: realize Haley's vision for a girl's like girls film, but

690
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 2: she was finally able to make her movie and an

691
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:48,839
Speaker 2: album to go with it.

692
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 3: Okay, so let's get.

693
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 2: To the film you thought it was he made in

694
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 2: twenty nineteen, you thought he made in twenty twenty.

695
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 4: This has been fun. I'm going to memory Lane with

696
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:58,799
Speaker 4: you for real. We are tracking.

697
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 2: Along the mountainside and we're making We really cover a

698
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 2: lot of ground in this show. But how did you

699
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 2: know that this time was different. You're like, yes, we're

700
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 2: making the film.

701
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 4: Well when you.

702
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 1: Get the green light, so essentially you do all these

703
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 1: pitches and depending on if a studio wants to distribute it,

704
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 1: our producers they go, yeah, we want to make this,

705
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,399
Speaker 1: and then it's like okay, cool, and then they go

706
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 1: all right, go budget it out and figure it out.

707
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 4: Okay.

708
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 1: So this was in like twenty twenty, so we budgeted

709
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 1: this movie out for like multiple different areas all over Canada,

710
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,799
Speaker 1: upstate New York, and you're essentially trying to make the

711
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 1: budget work for the script and the story, but you

712
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 1: don't have the money yet because you don't have the

713
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 1: green light, they.

714
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 4: Give you their blessing to go figure it out. Essentially,

715
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 4: this is where the Colona piece comes back in.

716
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 1: So then I release the book in twenty twenty three

717
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 1: that becomes a number one New York Times bestseller. That

718
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 1: starts creating the hype and the studios. You know, I

719
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,239
Speaker 1: guess you're right, there is a demand. I get the

720
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 1: green light at the end of that year.

721
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 4: Like, go, actually, go shoot it. We'll pay for it.

722
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: And I get a call from my producer and as

723
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 1: the director. The movie set in Oregon, but you don't

724
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:10,800
Speaker 1: get to choose where you're shooting the movie because tax

725
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 1: write offs all these things, like everything has to kind

726
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:15,439
Speaker 1: of play. And so they called me and they're like, hey,

727
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 1: we're going to shoot this movie in Cologna, Canada.

728
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 4: Have you heard of it? And I'm like, what are

729
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 4: you talking about? Have I heard of it?

730
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 1: My grandpa and my grandma have a house there and

731
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 1: you sedtill live there and I hadn't been there since

732
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 1: my grandpa had passed, So talk about.

733
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 4: A universal alignment.

734
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 1: It was like I had full body chills and I

735
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 1: was like, Okay, I think this movie's actually going to

736
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 1: get me, because.

737
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 4: You cannot make that stuff up.

738
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 1: This whole journey for me too has been embracing my

739
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,919
Speaker 1: Japanese side, and to shoot this movie four streets down

740
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:53,839
Speaker 1: from my grandparents' house on.

741
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 4: My Japanese side was very emotional.

742
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 1: And my grandpa was so important to me and to

743
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:01,360
Speaker 1: the point where I had to band named Heaiti in

744
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 1: high school.

745
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 4: So that was pretty wild.

746
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 1: And I do think that that was the moment where

747
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:09,720
Speaker 1: I went, I don't know who's going to see this movie.

748
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's going to get distributed. But

749
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 1: I'm making this movie and I'm supposed to be where

750
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 1: I am.

751
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 2: Okay, So what else do we need to know about

752
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:19,280
Speaker 2: the movie.

753
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 1: Well, it's a great film school Girls Like Girls. It

754
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 1: comes out June nineteenth in theaters. When I finished the film, well, firstly,

755
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,799
Speaker 1: the two leads are incredible. Colie's played by Maya da

756
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 1: Costa and fun fact, she's actually was the first audition

757
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 1: tape I ever watched out of four thousand submissions that

758
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 1: came in. And then Mara molloy, who plays Sonia, she

759
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 1: actually auditioned for Koli and I brought her back to

760
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 1: audition for Sonia because she just was like she just

761
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:51,399
Speaker 1: had that essence of like I'm going to break any

762
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 1: for anybody's heart, and I was like, that's the vibe

763
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 1: we're going for for Sonia. And so again going back

764
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 1: to that Velma Dinkley conversation about how I didn't think

765
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 1: I'd be the lead. I didn't think that the studio

766
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 1: would approve two Asian leads because that wasn't an intentional plan.

767
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 1: It just ended up happening that way, and it was

768
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 1: such amazing surprise that they approved the girls and supported

769
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 1: my decision to move forward with the two girls, and

770
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 1: that was also a pleasant surprise and just a reminder

771
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:24,279
Speaker 1: of like you just never know.

772
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 4: And I remember talking to my ram.

773
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 1: She was like, I didn't think I was going to

774
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 1: get the role because the other girl was Asian, and

775
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: we both thought the same thing, and I was like, Wow,

776
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:34,759
Speaker 1: we're really holding ourselves back here, Like we got to

777
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,840
Speaker 1: start changing this narrative because we deserve.

778
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:39,399
Speaker 4: To be in the front, to be seen.

779
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,720
Speaker 1: And that's what this whole film is about, is representation

780
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 1: and being able to see yourself in a film and

781
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 1: know that your story is important on a major scale.

782
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,319
Speaker 4: It's not a story that should be hidden. It's a

783
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 4: story that so many people have experienced and are still experiencing.

784
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 1: Whether you're sixteen or forty five or sixty five. You know,

785
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 1: we all have had that young love, like when you're

786
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 1: sixteen seventeen and fall in love with someone and it

787
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 1: feels like life or death and you're like, I'm gonna

788
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 1: marry this person, and this is the one. You know

789
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 1: what the film is said in rural Oregon, it's summer,

790
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:18,399
Speaker 1: it's nostalgia. And then when I finished the film, I

791
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:22,359
Speaker 1: wanted to have a soundtrack for the movie, and they

792
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 1: don't do soundtracks for movies this size, and so I

793
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 1: ended up just going to the studio and writing the album.

794
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 2: They're like, I'll have to just do it all and

795
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:33,919
Speaker 2: true form doing it all.

796
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so yeah, I finished the movie one in

797
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,359
Speaker 1: the studio, pitched the idea a ton of artists and

798
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 1: got a bunch of incredible career artists to collaborate and

799
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,360
Speaker 1: come together and write songs inspired by the scenes.

800
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 4: And ten songs.

801
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 1: Off of the album aren't even in the movie. They're

802
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,839
Speaker 1: just like bonus. So you can essentially go watch the movie.

803
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 4: Come home, listen to the album, and be able to

804
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:56,720
Speaker 4: connect the dots.

805
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, connect all over again in a different way.

806
00:39:59,440 --> 00:39:59,800
Speaker 4: Yeah.

807
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:02,959
Speaker 2: So what is something that at the time you saw

808
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 2: as maybe a low point for you, but now you

809
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 2: see it as having really launched you to the success

810
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 2: you are today.

811
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:10,880
Speaker 1: I mean, I think about that heartbreak I had in

812
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 1: high school and I had this like platonic relationship with

813
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 1: this girl and we would say all of juice to

814
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 1: each other and the knee caressing and all this stuff,

815
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 1: and it was really heartbreaking for me. And to know

816
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:25,799
Speaker 1: that that was such a catalyst to lean me to

817
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:30,319
Speaker 1: my directorial debut over twenty years later is pretty It's

818
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 1: pretty insane when you think about it.

819
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:35,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, did you think she has any idea?

820
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 4: I don't think she cares. That's very her.

821
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 1: So I think I'm grateful for that experience and I

822
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 1: have empathy for that person because I think society also too,

823
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,919
Speaker 1: was really holding her back from being her true self.

824
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 1: I don't know if she is at this time, but

825
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 1: it's wild to look back at a traumatic moment in

826
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 1: your life and to turn it into something to hopefully

827
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 1: help others feel sick and validated and heard.

828
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 3: Did you actually have a conversation or you just sort

829
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:06,360
Speaker 3: of like floated apart.

830
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,240
Speaker 1: Well, there's a scene in the movie where Coley goes

831
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:14,800
Speaker 1: to grab her jean jacket from Sonya, and that scene

832
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 1: is pretty borderline verbatim a scene that I experience in

833
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 1: my life, and it was that moment that everyone has

834
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 1: where it's like, I need to know the answer.

835
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 4: She's about to leave town. I need to know.

836
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,759
Speaker 1: And sometimes it leads in being together, and sometimes it

837
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 1: leads in just being absolutely shattered.

838
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 3: And then twenty years later to a beautiful film.

839
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:42,319
Speaker 4: And then you make it into your directory yeah, the upside.

840
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, do you think you'll pivot again?

841
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 4: I do feel like I found my thing.

842
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 1: I love directing, I love storytelling, I love world building.

843
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 1: I would love to just continue to do this for

844
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 1: the rest of my life. I'm sure pivots will come

845
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:01,879
Speaker 1: down the road, but I really do feel like all

846
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 1: of the pivots have actually led to this landing in

847
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 1: this moment, and I think I'm okay with not pivoting

848
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 1: for a while and actually just embracing. I think it's

849
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 1: a really cool feeling when you finally figure out what

850
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 1: you want to do, and it takes sometimes a lifetime,

851
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:20,839
Speaker 1: and so to be able to identify that finally through

852
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:24,320
Speaker 1: the music and the acting and the fake business cards

853
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 1: and all these moments, to know that directing was actually

854
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 1: where I was headed is like a really beautiful feeling.

855
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 1: And when I made the movie, as hard as it

856
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 1: was to make, it was the easiest thing in the

857
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,759
Speaker 1: sense of it felt like home. I was like, Oh,

858
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 1: this is what I'm good at, this is what I

859
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 1: can do, and I want to be a vehicle and

860
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,320
Speaker 1: a voice and a space for my community to be

861
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,400
Speaker 1: able to go see tens or hundreds of films and

862
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 1: TV shows, and to be able to read ten plus

863
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 1: queer books and universes and all of these things like

864
00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:57,280
Speaker 1: we deserve.

865
00:42:57,760 --> 00:42:59,720
Speaker 4: We're all so different and unique.

866
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 1: There's so many stories to be told, and it shouldn't

867
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:04,760
Speaker 1: take ten years for our stories to be told.

868
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 3: Is there anything that we haven't talked about that we should?

869
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:10,720
Speaker 4: No, I feel like we really just we went through

870
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 4: my entire life gave we.

871
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 2: Really cover a lot of ground. Well, thank you so much, Haley,

872
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 2: It's been so great having you. This is just the beginning,

873
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 2: I know.

874
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:22,800
Speaker 4: Oh, thank you so much. Yes to pivots and beyond.

875
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 2: There's a moment in our conversation where Haley describes the

876
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:32,479
Speaker 2: whole shift in her life in one line. She used

877
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 2: to lead with fear. Now she leads with confidence and

878
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 2: with a love for herself. And I think that's at

879
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,319
Speaker 2: the core of what she's built in her art. The

880
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 2: exact thing she was most terrified to write about in

881
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,879
Speaker 2: her twenties, being a girl who likes girls, is the

882
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 2: thing that she's now put into a song, eleven music videos,

883
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 2: two best selling books, and a movie she directed. The

884
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Speaker 2: fear didn't vanish, She just walked straight at it and

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00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:03,719
Speaker 2: created something other people could finally find when they need

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00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:07,840
Speaker 2: it most. The Girls Like Girls film and album are out.

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Speaker 2: Now go see the thing she spent ten years and

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00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:15,279
Speaker 2: her entire heart making happy pride. Pivoters. See you next week.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to she Pivots. If you like this episode,

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00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 2: follow the show so you never miss a pivot story

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00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 2: and share it with one woman in your life who

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Speaker 2: might need to hear it. To learn more about our

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00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,560
Speaker 2: guests and join our community, follow us on Instagram at

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00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 2: she pivots the podcast our Subscribe to our substack for

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Speaker 2: exclusive content and behind the scenes conversations. You can also

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Speaker 2: find us at shepivotspod dot com. This episode was produced

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00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 2: and edited by Paige Davis Janatt, with sound editing and

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00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 2: mixing by Nina Pollock. Logistics and planning by Emastopic and

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Speaker 2: Kendall Crupkin. Research by Christine Dickison. She Pivots is proud

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Speaker 2: to be a part of the iHeart Podcast Network.

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Speaker 4: I endorsed che The Presents