1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: Quody dots with Joseph Scott more. What do you think 2 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:12,719 Speaker 1: is the most common question that I have been asked 3 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: over the course of my career as a death investigator. Well, 4 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: my benchmark for that has been the most common question 5 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: is what's the worst thing you've ever seen? And you know, 6 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:43,599 Speaker 1: worse comes in degrees, and what might be really offensive 7 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:48,160 Speaker 1: and bad to you in the realm of death might 8 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,879 Speaker 1: not even register on my meter. It's not that I'm 9 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: some great guru or something like that. It's just that 10 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 1: after a period of time, you're exposed to so much 11 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 1: and you could say that I I bet you could 12 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:04,759 Speaker 1: say that about any occupation out there. But the other 13 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 1: statement that is made is not a question. It generally 14 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: goes like this, I don't see how in the world 15 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: you can do what you do? That is the question. 16 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 1: It's more of a statement. But I've asked myself that 17 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: question because I would be around things that most people 18 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: cannot even begin to imagine in their workaday lives, and 19 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: I would ask that question to myself, how do I 20 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: do these things? The things that you see? But you 21 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: know what it comes down to, it's all in how 22 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: you frame it. Today we're going to talk about human 23 00:01:56,080 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: decomposition from the investigator perspective. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and 24 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: this is Bodybacks, Brother, Dave. Let me tell you another 25 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 1: question that I am asked many times, or statements that 26 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: people make, there's two of them. When it comes to 27 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 1: the dead. People will say that human decay, a decaying 28 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: human remain has a very particular smell. And then they 29 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 1: will also say that bodies that have burned have a 30 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: very particular smell. How can these two things be because 31 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 1: first off, there's no scientific validation for those two statements. 32 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 1: There's no way that you can even qualify those you know, 33 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 1: what are you measuring against? Because I got to tell you, 34 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 1: I've been around decomposing hogs. They really don't smell any 35 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: different than human decaying remains. And I've been to barbecues, Dave. 36 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: I've been to barbecues, and I've got to tell you, 37 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: I've smelled very familiar smells at gatherings that only exist 38 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: in some people's nightmares. And I hate it when those 39 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: thoughts enter into my mind because I've paid a price 40 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 1: for it over the years, just those remembrances, and I 41 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 1: think that any human being is like that, that you 42 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: have these. I hate the term trigger. I despise that term. 43 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: It's such a generalized term and you never know really 44 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 1: what anybody means by that. But there's something in our 45 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: mind that conjures up these familiar smells. I remember the 46 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: smell of my grandmother's fried chicken, which is probably as 47 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: close to the ambrosia of the Guy Odds as you 48 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: can possibly get in my mond, you know, thinking about right, 49 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: and that's a very pleasant thing. 50 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 2: Now we have the sensory memories, you know, of certain 51 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 2: times of the day and certain times of the night, 52 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 2: especially if you have a special time of the year 53 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:16,279 Speaker 2: that you prefer over others, you know. Yeah, and you 54 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 2: have that early morning drive that reminds you of at 55 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 2: a certain time in college when you had to run 56 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:26,159 Speaker 2: the USA today you know route around town to pay 57 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 2: your college tuition and stuff like that. You know. Yeah, 58 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 2: But I wondered about you mentioned being at a barbecue 59 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 2: and smelling something very similar to that you smelled. I 60 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 2: don't a scene, and I had to remember a story 61 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 2: we did on Crime Stories with Nancy Grace where a 62 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 2: woman cooked up her husband and served her at a 63 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 2: neighborhood barbecue and nobody recognized it, you know, and it 64 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 2: was my first thought. I thought it would smell different. 65 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 2: I thought human remains would smell different than a cattle. 66 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 2: I just assumed that. But I don't remember smelling the 67 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 2: difference between chicken and you. 68 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: Be well, I got to tell you, you know, I 69 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: can't speak for everybody's experiences out there. I just know 70 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 1: that I've I've other than people that are directly involved 71 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 1: in my field, I've got a much larger statistical sampling, 72 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: so I've had it happen over and over again. And yeah, 73 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,600 Speaker 1: that that smell that you get with both of these 74 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:29,919 Speaker 1: that were you know that we're currently discussing whether it 75 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 1: is burned human remains or whether it is decomposing human remains. 76 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 1: And don't get me started on burned remains that are decomposing, 77 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 1: because that's an entirely different level. If I if I 78 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: had to rely on my olfactory census in order to 79 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: be an effective investigator, I don't know how much of 80 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: a success I would be because look, I don't even 81 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:56,280 Speaker 1: believe my site most of the time. 82 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 2: You know, I have to go aheack and me you're 83 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:00,480 Speaker 2: lying on your. 84 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: Line eyes, yeah, and so uh, but you know decomposition 85 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 1: is a big it's a big part of what we 86 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: have to analyze. And I have to take our friends 87 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 1: back to a very recent episode that we did, and 88 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:19,239 Speaker 1: this is kind of how I want to frame this. 89 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 1: This episode out we talked about post mortem change right 90 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,280 Speaker 1: and what I think was a really good episode. I 91 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: urge anybody to go back and listen to this. It 92 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: was just a couple of weeks ago, and we talked 93 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 1: about it in a micro sense, and that's generally like 94 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: when you're talking to investigators out at the scene. One 95 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: of the first questions they will ask an investigator is 96 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: they always say, hey, doc, how long how long do 97 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:47,279 Speaker 1: you think that it's been? You know, how long do 98 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: you think it's been? Oh? Yeah, yeah, that's one of 99 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 1: the big things. Yeah, well once you've once you've started 100 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: an exam and yeah, because they they think that you're 101 00:06:56,640 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 1: like this scientific genius you know that, and I'm not. 102 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 1: You show up at a scene and you begin to 103 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:06,119 Speaker 1: do all of these high end calculations and you're looking 104 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: at the body, and you know, you can look at 105 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: the body and say, well, she whiz, Jim, this guy's 106 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: been dead for you know, I don't know, three hours 107 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: and thirty three minutes, that's you can't do that. No, Lord, no, 108 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: nobody can do that. And if they tell you they 109 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: can do it, don't walk run away from that person 110 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 1: because they're a liar. It's an empirical impossibility. 111 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, ask you something you brought up that I've got 112 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 2: to ask. Yeah, because you've mentioned the smell of a 113 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 2: dead body, and you did mention that there's a difference 114 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 2: between the smell of a dead body and a decomposing body. 115 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 2: When yeah, people talk about the smell a unique smell 116 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 2: of decomposition. Most of us are not around decomposition in 117 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 2: any part of our life. We know when we do 118 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 2: smell it, it is going to be rare and it 119 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 2: is going to be a unique smell to us. When 120 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 2: I reminded of Cindy Anthony, Casey Anthony's mother, when oh, yeah, 121 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 2: she called police because Casey Anthony had taken off with 122 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 2: their car and hadn't returned it. And she called to report, 123 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 2: come arrest my daughter for stealing my car. And they 124 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 2: found out it had been towed, and she went to 125 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 2: the place to get it back and when they opened 126 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 2: the trunk, it stunk, and she said it smells like 127 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 2: a dead body's been in there. Now, that was said 128 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 2: in the first moments that we knew of Kaylee Anthony. 129 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 2: It smells like a dead body has been in there. 130 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 2: And the comparison was, it doesn't smell like trash. We 131 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 2: all know how bad trash can smell, and this took 132 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 2: her was different and stronger and just not trash. 133 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, with trash you'll get this kind 134 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:03,719 Speaker 1: of Of course, this is all heavily depended upon the 135 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 1: mixture that you're talking about. With everyday household trash, sometimes 136 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: you can have this kind of sickening, sickly sweet smell 137 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: is the way I describe it many times. If you're 138 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 1: talking about refuse, refuse that we generate, okay, well, that 139 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 1: smells different than say, solid human waste or even manure 140 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: from you know, from hogs or cattle. You know. Look 141 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: where we live, Dave. It's a big agricultural area, isn't 142 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: it lovely? When the farmers go out and spread manure 143 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: on the fields and it's liquefied and it's going everywhere. 144 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 1: Lord help you if you live adjacent to this and listen, 145 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:40,560 Speaker 1: I know why they have to do it, but that 146 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 1: is a very particular smell and. 147 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 2: If you have a five or six year old boy 148 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 2: with you, that you can make a lot of unique sound. 149 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I know that. 150 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, time it's worthwhile. Really, other than that, the windows 151 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 2: and pray the air right doesn't give out? 152 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, And look, you're looking toward the cotton crop. You 153 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: know that it's going to be harvested or corn or 154 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 1: whatever it is. And there's a method to that. But 155 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 1: when we begin to talk about human decomposition, I've had 156 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 1: people ask me that, and this is a legitimate question. 157 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: They'll say, I've never been around a decomposing body. What 158 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: does it smell like? And when you begin to think 159 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: about it. The only way I've been able and again 160 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 1: this is my own perspective, my little slice of the 161 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 1: pie here, from what I have observed consistently, the only 162 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 1: way I have really been able to describe it from me, 163 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: and it comes in varying degrees. It smells to me 164 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: like burning tires, which is a disgusting odor to me. 165 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 1: If you've ever smelled a tire that has been set 166 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: on fire. I know, people in service. I think back 167 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: to what happened in Somalia. You know there were burning 168 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: tires there. If you've ever been around a runaway fire 169 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: that happens at a tire factory, which I actually experienced 170 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: as a child. There was a tire company near us, 171 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 1: and the whole thing caught on fire burned for six months, 172 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 1: and so that smell was always in the air, and 173 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 1: it always hung with It's like kind of like burning rubber. 174 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: I guess is really how it smells. That's the way 175 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 1: I've always interpreted it. And everybody will come away with 176 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 1: their own their own take on it, and it's curious, 177 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 1: you know. I've encountered individuals, witnesses, finders, you know, over 178 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: the years, and they'll make these kind of passive comments, like, 179 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: you know, we we had smelled something, but we didn't 180 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: really know what it was. Sometimes it would be stronger 181 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 1: than other times. And a lot of that has to 182 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:50,079 Speaker 1: do with something that we talked about in our first episode, 183 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 1: relative to post mortem interval in the immediate in the 184 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: micro sense, now we're talking macro in a broader sense. 185 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 1: A lot of that has to do with ambient ambient temperature. 186 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: As the heat in a location rises, you'll it the 187 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 1: smell becomes more profound at that moment in time, and 188 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: then as it cools you know, the smell will slightly 189 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 1: be knocked down, It'll still be there, but it's not 190 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: as quite as pervasive, if you will, So it's really 191 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: hard for the average person that's never been around it 192 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 1: to kind of comprehend it. I can tell you this. 193 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 1: Most people know. It's almost a primal instinct. They know 194 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 1: that they don't want to be around it. And that's why, 195 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 1: you know, people ask me questions and they're living vicariously. 196 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 1: I know that they are. They want to be entertained. 197 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 1: That's why people ask me the question what's the worst 198 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 1: thing you've ever seen, which, in a way is kind 199 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 1: of disrespectful because that's like me coming to somebody saying, Okay, 200 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 1: what's the worst day you've ever had at work? Tell 201 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: me about it. Somebody will say, well, what's the worst thing, 202 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: And many in my colleagues included, when people ask us 203 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: that question, some people will just not answer it. And 204 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: I have one friend in particular that will say, it's 205 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: none of your damn business. That's how they feel about it, 206 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 1: because you're asking somebody to relive an event that is 207 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 1: so shocking and so over the top. They're not saying, well, 208 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 1: what was it like to work to work a death, 209 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,439 Speaker 1: they will say, what's the worst thing you've ever seen? 210 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 1: Because I got to tell you, my scale of worst 211 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:38,440 Speaker 1: is a lot different in a lot of my colleagues, 212 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:41,959 Speaker 1: is a lot different than the average person. So and 213 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 1: many times, particularly for those of us that have been 214 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 1: affected by PTSD and the things that we have to 215 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: struggle with and the wake of doing a job that 216 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: most people don't even think about. Sometimes you'll be lulled 217 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 1: into a sense of security with people when they say, well, 218 00:13:57,960 --> 00:13:59,719 Speaker 1: what's the worst thing you've ever seen? You think that 219 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 1: they're asking you a therapeutic question. Well, once you unburden yourself, 220 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 1: that's not what they're doing. They're saying, dance for me, 221 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 1: entertain me, And so you know, you can get kind 222 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 1: of riled up about it. Sometimes I've developed a callous 223 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:18,079 Speaker 1: to it now, I think at this point in my life. 224 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: But for a long time, particularly in the wake of 225 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: everything that I went through through therapy and all that 226 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: sort of said before that I would get really angry 227 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: when people would ask me that question. But I got 228 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: to tell you, just because something has impacted you doesn't 229 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: mean that there's not value in it. And I think 230 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: that that's important for us to understand when we're talking 231 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: about decompositional changes, because a lot can be learned from it, 232 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 1: and not just in the sense that it's something that 233 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 1: is connected with a death. It's actually, when you think 234 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: about it, just like birth, it's a natural biological process. 235 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: Death does in fact come to us. All that's not 236 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 1: just some kind of passive comment. And certainly, Dave, as 237 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: I've gotten let's say, more chronologically mature, right, I've realized 238 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: that I've got less life to live than I have lived, 239 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: and so you begin to think about these things. Death 240 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: does in fact come to us. But listen, it's it. 241 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 1: It's a natural process. It's just like birth. And I 242 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: remember the birth of my kids. I remember the birth 243 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 1: of my grandbabies and what a celebratory event that was. 244 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: And people don't look at death that same way. They 245 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 1: don't they don't view it as a celebration. Some people 246 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: will try to say, well, it's a celebration of life 247 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: when we go to a funeral. It can be. It 248 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 1: can be, but you're still talking about the dead. And 249 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: one of the one of the things we do in 250 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: our field is, you know, we try to understand when 251 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 1: you get out beyond that kind of micro sensibility where 252 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: you're you're talking about hours. You're in a much broader 253 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: area here. When you talk about the decomposition of human remains. 254 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 1: It's a It's an incredible process when you think about it, 255 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 1: the changes that take place, and there is a measurement 256 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 1: to it, just like there is in the micro sense. 257 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 1: There's actually a measurement to it in a macro sense. 258 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 1: The only downside is we can't put that final point 259 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 1: on it. Dave. 260 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 2: When you were talking a minute ago about people asking 261 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 2: your worst you know, tell me your best story, which 262 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 2: means the worst moment of your life at work, Well 263 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 2: was it? And explain I want all the glory detail, 264 00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 2: just like in the movies. And I have to think 265 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 2: of about that and realizing that there was a first 266 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:06,879 Speaker 2: time for everything. And I can't imagine that that was 267 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:09,679 Speaker 2: a real treat either. That has to be one of 268 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 2: those markers in your life. 269 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,680 Speaker 1: It was, and it happened. It happened in the reverse 270 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 1: for me. I did not. I was not around a 271 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 1: profoundly decomposed body in the field the first time I 272 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 1: was around a profoundly decomposed body where you had these 273 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: massive changes post mortem changes that had taken place, was 274 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 1: actually in the morgue, and I was the person to 275 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: open the back on the table, and I remember and 276 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 1: I'd done. I'd done what we refer to as fresh 277 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: dead cases, you know, cases that had died within the 278 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:50,159 Speaker 1: last day or two, you know, that had come in 279 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 1: from the field. And of course I started my career 280 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 1: in New Orleans. And let me tell you something, there 281 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:00,639 Speaker 1: are a lot of decomposed bodies in South Louisiana and 282 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:05,160 Speaker 1: it all has to do with the environmental factors because heat, 283 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:09,680 Speaker 1: as we know, speeds everything up. So we actually use 284 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: the term dcomp season down there because when you hit 285 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: down there, when you hit April, your last cool day 286 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: of the year is if you're lucky, it's going to 287 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 1: be marching South Louisiana. And so starting in April, you know, 288 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:26,199 Speaker 1: we're ahead of the curb. When it comes to like 289 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:30,879 Speaker 1: Alabama or moving north, bodies go really really quick. And 290 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,919 Speaker 1: so I got to tell you, Dave, I had I 291 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:36,959 Speaker 1: remember opening that bag and when I look down on 292 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: those remains and they were blown, We're. 293 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 2: Going to have to come back there. And I didn't 294 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:41,120 Speaker 2: know that. 295 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: In color the lips were the lips were protruding. Yeah, 296 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: the tongue was protruding from the mouth swollen, and you 297 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: have to fix yourself, but sets your face like flint, 298 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: and you know, move forward because you have to understand. 299 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 1: And this is what I had to get passed. I 300 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 1: had to rely or lean into the science because I 301 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: knew that what I was looking at. I had to 302 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 1: try to unravel the mystery from a scientific standpoint, or 303 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 1: at least assist in this, and to try to collect 304 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: every bit of data I could. And I kind of 305 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 1: knew that this was going to happen, but I didn't 306 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 1: expect it to be as impactful for me. And so 307 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 1: when I got out to a scene where I had 308 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: my first decomposing body and it was a natural death, 309 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: it was I still remember it. It was an elderly 310 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: grandmother who had not been seen in three weeks probably, 311 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: and the grandchildren came to the house and they had 312 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,679 Speaker 1: smelled something before they ever opened the door, and I 313 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 1: remember distinctly talking to them. They were saying, we couldn't 314 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 1: open the door. We knew it was going to be bad, 315 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: and so the police obviously took the keys from them, 316 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: entered the house with their permission, and then they called 317 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 1: me out and when you see this decomposing body laying 318 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:06,360 Speaker 1: in a bed and these changes are taking place, it's 319 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 1: very profound because again I go back to what I've 320 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: said before, observing the abnormal and context of the normal. 321 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 1: If you've got a grandmother, you've been in her bedroom, 322 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,640 Speaker 1: you know it looks a particular way. This lady's bedroom 323 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 1: looked a particular way, kind of reminiscent of my grandmother. 324 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 1: You can't help but drag your own personal views into 325 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: these things. But then you see everything that's going on, 326 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 1: everything from the changes in the body to larval development with flies, 327 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 1: to you know, just everything that's going on in this environment, 328 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 1: and you can't escape it. I've described it in my 329 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: writings as kind of the essence of death that leeches 330 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 1: onto you, and I've got a great story about that 331 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:58,400 Speaker 1: that I can get into. But it's one of these 332 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 1: things that when you're around it, you you bear witness 333 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: to it with your eyes, but you carry a remnant 334 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:13,360 Speaker 1: of it with you when you leave the scene. And 335 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: that's something that I you know that I I had 336 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:18,639 Speaker 1: to work through. My family had to work there. My 337 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:19,640 Speaker 1: wife used to make. 338 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 2: The scene stayed on your clothing, your hair, all of that. 339 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 1: Mm hmm my mustache. Yeah, everything. I worked A years ago. 340 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 1: I worked a what's called a jacket barge. People are 341 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: generally not familiar with it if you don't live near 342 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: the Gulf of Mexico where there's ore fineries and uh, 343 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,680 Speaker 1: you know offshore rigs and jacket bar just got these 344 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 1: huge posts on it where they can actually take this 345 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: barge out to imagine one of these huge world uh 346 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 1: you know, oil wells out you know, a derek out there, 347 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:05,880 Speaker 1: and they can set this thing next to it, and 348 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 1: it's got like an old fashioned carjack. Those legs go 349 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 1: down to the ocean floor and they can work on 350 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: the deck of this thing and Jason to the oil 351 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,199 Speaker 1: rig and do all kinds of Well, the guys that 352 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: were on this rig, there was a tropical storm that 353 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: came in the Gulf of Mexico and they were trying 354 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 1: to beat at home and this thing is real awkward, 355 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 1: you know, when it doesn't have the same physical characteristics 356 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: of like a crew boat or something like that. And 357 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 1: it capsized and all sixteen of those guys died and 358 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,120 Speaker 1: we got them not at one time. They were fetched 359 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 1: out of the water of a period of time, and 360 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: I was of all things inside of a I'll never 361 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 1: forget this, a pigly wiggly refrigerated eighteen wheeler that I 362 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 1: don't know how the parish got it, but we got it. 363 00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,400 Speaker 1: We didn't have enough room to store all these bodies. 364 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,199 Speaker 1: Day in and day out. I was going into this 365 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 1: environment to do everything that we had to do to 366 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: get them id'd. And it was a long process and 367 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: it was tedious. I spent a lot of hours in there, 368 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:17,879 Speaker 1: and I remember from that instance in particular, when I 369 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: went home. I was single back then, and I remember, 370 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 1: we'll see, it was two days after the last body 371 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:30,360 Speaker 1: I'd worked, and I'm I am a fool for showers. 372 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: I love showers. I'll take to a day if I can. 373 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:39,199 Speaker 1: And a buddy of mine that worked with me that 374 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: had not worked in there, he said, did you work 375 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: at d COMP today? And I said no, I said 376 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: not for two days we finished up the guys off 377 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 1: the He says, you smell bad, and I'm thinking, what 378 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 1: what's going on? You know? And after a while you 379 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 1: can't you kind of get I don't know, he hits 380 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: self conscious of it. I'm like lifting my mustache up 381 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: to my nose. I had this big, thick like Tom 382 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:10,159 Speaker 1: Selleck mustache back in the eighties, and I caught a 383 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 1: whiff of it in my mustache, and I remember going home, 384 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 1: and I write about this in my memoir Blood Beneath 385 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 1: my Feet and not since basic training had I had 386 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: my head shaved and in the Army I I went 387 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 1: to my barber, had them shave my head, and I 388 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,679 Speaker 1: shaved off my mustache, plucked all of my nose hairs 389 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: because it got into my mind so much, and I 390 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 1: threw away all of the clubs. I was using a 391 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,160 Speaker 1: particular set of clothes, I was using a particular set 392 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 1: of scrubs for that that I would wash. But they 393 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 1: still it just reminded me of it, and you can't 394 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 1: get away from that essence. Now. I don't know how 395 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 1: much of that was real, or how much of it 396 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: was something that had happened in my brain. I've had 397 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 1: other people tell me that. And you know, it's weird 398 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:05,159 Speaker 1: that the culture of a medical examiner or corner's office, 399 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 1: where almost we almost have they ought to study us 400 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 1: like they study you know, animals in the wild, like 401 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 1: in the jungles, if you see, like the great apes 402 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,439 Speaker 1: that are out there, kind of picking knits out of 403 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 1: each other's hair. We we would do things, as bizarre 404 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: as that is, we would how how what rational person 405 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 1: would walk up to another person? And as a favor, 406 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: if your buddy says, do us, do I smell bad? 407 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 1: And it's not like you have bo It's like they 408 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,640 Speaker 1: know what you've just gone through. Do you have any 409 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 1: essence of you of what you've come from? Because you've 410 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,639 Speaker 1: been asked to go out to lunch, and let that 411 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,639 Speaker 1: sink in just for a second. You can't avoid people, 412 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 1: and so as a courtesy, you know, we would, we 413 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 1: would do that for And I remember distinctly many occasions, 414 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: you know, smelling or sniffing my colleagues. As weird as 415 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: that sounds, you would, you know, you would smell, you'd 416 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 1: smell their hair or there. You know, you'd lean in 417 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,400 Speaker 1: and smell the shirt collar. No, I don't smell anything. Now, 418 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: I think you're good to go. And that was just 419 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:24,119 Speaker 1: kind of common when you think about decomposition. It's a 420 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:28,120 Speaker 1: norm for those in our world, but it's so it's 421 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:32,680 Speaker 1: so abnormal for anybody that's not near it, and it's striking. 422 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,480 Speaker 2: This goes back to the original thing that you said 423 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 2: about people asking about the worst thing you've ever seen. 424 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:41,439 Speaker 2: It's nothing I'm ever going to be near. It's not 425 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 2: my life. I'm not going to be. The closest I'll 426 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 2: be to a dead body is if a loved one, 427 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 2: a very old loved one is in bed and I'm 428 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 2: there around them, and this is somebody that is not 429 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 2: they're dying. I'm not going to be around this in 430 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,640 Speaker 2: my life, which is why that question. But I've got 431 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 2: to ask you. You mentioned the first body you unzipped 432 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 2: in the morgue, and you mentioned the body was green tongue. 433 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 2: You gave a brief description. Can you compare the decomposition 434 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,199 Speaker 2: of a body like that versus the grandma that they 435 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,440 Speaker 2: hadn't seen in three weeks? What difference is what changes 436 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 2: take place in that period of time. You don't you're 437 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 2: not three days in when you come in green swelled 438 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 2: up in your tongue sticking out, but you're also not 439 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:30,399 Speaker 2: soiled into a mattress where you're only three inches left 440 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 2: of body. 441 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:33,160 Speaker 1: So now I've had that happen. 442 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, we did a story about a woman who 443 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 2: actually melted into the furniture. 444 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:42,680 Speaker 1: She died, and that does happen, and you know, I guess, 445 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 1: you know, we would use the term melting melting implause, 446 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 1: you know, being exposed to extreme heat. But just so 447 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,160 Speaker 1: that you understand and all of our friends understand, it's 448 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,160 Speaker 1: just it's a matter of the process of decomposition. You're 449 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,400 Speaker 1: not going to see this immediately. But again, I cannot 450 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 1: stress to peece people how what a huge factor temperature 451 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 1: is on these events as you as you move through 452 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 1: the process of assessing how long they have been down. 453 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 1: So if you, you know, if you take someone that's 454 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 1: kind of outside the window of the micro sense, where 455 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:24,639 Speaker 1: we're looking at hours, maybe a couple of days, and 456 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,239 Speaker 1: we're trying to pin it down. We're looking at at 457 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 1: Roger Mortis and we're looking at postmortal lividity, and all 458 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 1: those things are the you know, are the limbs flaccid? 459 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: Now has has the rigidity broken? Is you know it's 460 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: a lividity And we've talked about all this in previous episode. 461 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: Is it blanchable versus non blankable? All those things and 462 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 1: what's the body temp? Well, now you're going to a 463 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 1: different level because you begin to look at elements out 464 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: at a scene where you're thinking, well, I'm seeing this 465 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 1: presentation at the scene. Can I can I tie this 466 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 1: back to a time a marker in toime if I 467 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: if I'm looking at a body. One of the first 468 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 1: things that begins to occur from when you're heading down 469 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: the road toward you know, we have degrees. We'll talk 470 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: about minimal, moderate, to advance decomposition in the macro sense, 471 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: in the broad sense. So if you're talking about minimal, 472 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 1: here's an interesting little factoid. One of the things that 473 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: you encounter, one of the first like observable changes, I 474 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 1: think is there's a greenish discoloration that appears on the 475 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 1: abdomen and I don't explain, I can't explain why. I 476 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 1: think it has something to do with gaseous build up, 477 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 1: probably you know, within the bowel, but most of the 478 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 1: time it's in the right lower quadrant adjacent to like 479 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: where your appendix be. You'll see kind of a green patch. 480 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 1: I've seen this repeated over and over again, and that's 481 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: that's in the area where you're starting to get into 482 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 1: a macro examination of decomposition. And then it begins to spread. 483 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 1: And I think that one of the reasons you see 484 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: this greenish discoloration, you know, kind of begin to take 485 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: form over the abdomen where you know the bowel is concerned. 486 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 1: Is that there's a lot of going on. There's a 487 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 1: lot going on here internally with the body because the 488 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 1: body has literally begun to eat itself. And this is 489 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 1: what we refer to as autolsis and as auto means self, right, 490 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 1: and so the body literally begins to break its or 491 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 1: digest its on self, you know, through enzymic changes and 492 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: this sort of thing, and any little nasties that are 493 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 1: in dwelling in there, and of course our gut is 494 00:30:55,440 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: loaded with with these elements. It's that begin to break down. 495 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:06,479 Speaker 1: And you think about this kind of expansion and the 496 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 1: bloating of the body, and the body bloats in a 497 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 1: in a variety of different ways. You get this kind 498 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: of abdominal bloating that takes place. And you'll and some 499 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 1: people will hear of this as decompositional distincsion, and the 500 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 1: abdomen will be very very rigid. As a matter of fact, 501 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 1: it will feel in certain cases it almost feels like 502 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 1: the surface of overinflated basketball. It's not going to have 503 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 1: the same texture, obviously, but it has that you know 504 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 1: what I'm talking about, that level of rigidity. 505 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, because I've heard people talk about how they get 506 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,959 Speaker 2: bloated like that and it can they pop like a balloom? 507 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 2: Can a person be so bloated? 508 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 1: Joe? 509 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm just we've heard jokes in movies about it, right, push, 510 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 2: don't push them out to see, but don't poke him 511 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 2: because you don't want him to explode. 512 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, and you know people have and I take 513 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 1: exception to people that say explode because I've never had 514 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 1: a body, literally an entire body explode, all right. A 515 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 1: lot of old timer's will say that, particularly cops. They'll say, yeah, 516 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 1: I saw the body. They're not seeing the body explode. Actually, 517 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 1: what they're seeing is and this is one of the 518 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 1: first things that happens in the stage. You get what's 519 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 1: referred to as skin slippage. And if folks will just 520 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: kind of look at your hands and you know you 521 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: have this epidermal epidermis, which is that thin outer coating 522 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 1: of skin on our body. Well, what begins to happen 523 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: is that gas is actually beginning to build up within 524 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: that space between the epidermis and the dermis, and you 525 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 1: developed these things that we refer to as and it's 526 00:32:54,800 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: generally associated with emphysema COPD practice doctors that deal with 527 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 1: COPD emphasma, you know, they talk about this with emphasma. 528 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 1: You get these little bumps on the surface of the 529 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 1: lungs and they refer to as blebs b l e 530 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 1: b S blebs. We refer to these as decompositional blabs 531 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 1: because they look like little balloons that begin to present 532 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 1: on the skin are this gaseous expansion has taken place. 533 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: And many times these blabs will be really big, I 534 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 1: mean the size of like a party balloon, and they're 535 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 1: filled with probably one of the most disgusting substances on 536 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 1: the face of the planet, this decompositional fluid. It's and 537 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 1: it's a it's a mix of a variety of things 538 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 1: cellular decomposition. You've got in some cases, you've got elements 539 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:59,959 Speaker 1: of various elements of blood RBC's and white blood cells 540 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 1: and plasma and everything serum and everything else that's in there, 541 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 1: and it's all kind of combining. And uh, I can't 542 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:09,959 Speaker 1: tell you how many times I've had one of those 543 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:15,920 Speaker 1: erupt and it it'll it splashes everywhere. You'll get these 544 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 1: large wet spots beneath bodies that sort of thing. 545 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 2: And that's this is what you're getting. That's what that is. 546 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you'll get that. You'll see that present many 547 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 1: times and sometimes they'll be very small. But the skin 548 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:33,280 Speaker 1: we call it skin slippage, and it's a marker in time, 549 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,840 Speaker 1: you know, for how long this is this this person 550 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,440 Speaker 1: has been deceased, you know, because they're moving into this 551 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 1: phase and it's it's uh, it's something that when we 552 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 1: when we see it, we can actually get an idea 553 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:55,800 Speaker 1: of how long someone has been down where they've advanced 554 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 1: past the micro sense and they're headed into the macro sense. 555 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 1: There's other associated things that kind of come along with this, 556 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,279 Speaker 1: you know, and that's within a window of and again 557 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:13,320 Speaker 1: it's heavily depended upon environmental temperature, but when you begin 558 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:21,239 Speaker 1: to think about heat, it's going to speed this process up. 559 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,760 Speaker 1: If you begin to look outside of that like seventy 560 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 1: two hour window, you'll see these changes that'll that will 561 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,280 Speaker 1: take place. There will also be a greenish this coloration 562 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 1: that's taking place. And the body also does something else 563 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:38,920 Speaker 1: that's quite interesting. You'll see issue with what's referred to 564 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 1: as marbling and marbling, you know, we hear that commonly 565 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,920 Speaker 1: associated with you know, you look at the marbling of 566 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:50,400 Speaker 1: a cut, a beef or something, and that's generally referring to, 567 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 1: you know, these kind of lines of fat, and you 568 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,239 Speaker 1: know they grade these sort of things. But marbling in 569 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:03,439 Speaker 1: human remains is fascinating because when you see it, it looks 570 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,919 Speaker 1: like a spider web and it really is striking. It's 571 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: kind of a deep, deep purple color. And what is 572 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 1: occurring is that the blood that is still contained in 573 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:23,279 Speaker 1: those vessels is decay and so it is presenting. It's 574 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 1: leeching out, but it's also presenting and approximating the layout 575 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 1: of blood vessels in the body. And you'll see it 576 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,920 Speaker 1: in the face a lot. You'll see it. It presents 577 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 1: because those vessels are so close to the surface, like 578 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,399 Speaker 1: you know, in the cheeks, forehead, that sort of thing. 579 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 1: And people when they see this, and I'm talking about 580 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,920 Speaker 1: civilians that walk in and find someone, it's one of 581 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 1: the most ghastly things that they can begin to imagine 582 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 1: in their mind. And it's so horrible. I hate it 583 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,000 Speaker 1: for families that walk in, you know, and find their 584 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 1: loved ones in these conditions. We have to go in 585 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,920 Speaker 1: and document that and observe it. One of the you know, 586 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,680 Speaker 1: I remember very distinctly. I had a young man that 587 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,880 Speaker 1: was a rookie police officer and he had contacted me 588 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,880 Speaker 1: from the scene of a death of a gentleman that 589 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 1: had been found in a rocking chair. And he was 590 00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:22,600 Speaker 1: still dressed. He was a guy, was like a laborer 591 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,960 Speaker 1: and he worked construction sites. He was still wearing his 592 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:28,879 Speaker 1: work boots on it and his blue jeans. They've still 593 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:30,719 Speaker 1: had red clay mud on it. I'll never forget. But 594 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,800 Speaker 1: he had probably been down for I don't know, maybe 595 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,279 Speaker 1: six days, and the young police officer, and it was 596 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,959 Speaker 1: in summertime. The young police officer called me up and said, 597 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:43,760 Speaker 1: mister Morgan, you have to get out here immediately, says, 598 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,040 Speaker 1: I think we've got a homicide. It looks like this 599 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 1: might be some kind of attack with an axe or something. Please, 600 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:52,440 Speaker 1: you know, I've got c ID in route, I've got 601 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:57,160 Speaker 1: IDAN route, so priminin the detectives and the forensic technicians. 602 00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:59,839 Speaker 1: You need to get out. I said, okay, I'm heading 603 00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 1: now that way. And what it turned out to be, 604 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 1: and he was right to call us because he's a 605 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 1: beat cop. He doesn't know any different. But there was 606 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 1: what appeared to be blood just surrounding the body. The 607 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,759 Speaker 1: guy was in a rocking chair. It had leached down 608 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:17,560 Speaker 1: onto his shirt. It looked like blood. Head was swollen, 609 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,120 Speaker 1: it looked like there was a dima like even And 610 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:24,440 Speaker 1: that's not what had happened. The fellow had been decomposing 611 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,279 Speaker 1: in this position and was presenting as if he had 612 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,560 Speaker 1: been you know, he had been beaten to helen back. 613 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,800 Speaker 1: That wasn't the case. It was his face had begun 614 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,359 Speaker 1: to swell and bloat and these sorts of things, and 615 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:41,240 Speaker 1: he was beginning to purge, which is another another level 616 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,880 Speaker 1: that you get to with decomposition, and that means through 617 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,680 Speaker 1: any orifice that you have, the nose, the mouth, you'll 618 00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:51,400 Speaker 1: actually present with this purge fluid. And again this is 619 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 1: a combination. It's kind of a mixture of all of 620 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 1: this cellular waste that's occurring in the bodies. The cells 621 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,840 Speaker 1: begin to break down and they literally drip out of 622 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 1: the nose and out of the mouth and these sorts 623 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,600 Speaker 1: of things, and it will stain the adjacent surfaces. So 624 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:09,919 Speaker 1: you can imagine this young man when he is there 625 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:14,400 Speaker 1: and he's observing this, and the poor victim had on 626 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:16,279 Speaker 1: a white T shirt. Dave and you can imagine the 627 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 1: contrast here, and so he's looking at a guy who 628 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:24,839 Speaker 1: is very dark, looks like he's you know, he's been beaten, bruised, contusions, 629 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:29,000 Speaker 1: this sort of thing, and he's seeing his contrast against 630 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:33,320 Speaker 1: the white T shirt. And this has all taken place now, 631 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:38,239 Speaker 1: in this particular case, within only about six days. So 632 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 1: when you have an unattended death that occurs like this 633 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:47,200 Speaker 1: and the subject is has been down and no one 634 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:52,160 Speaker 1: has come around to check on them, it's you have 635 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:55,480 Speaker 1: to as an as a forensic scientist, you have to 636 00:39:55,680 --> 00:40:00,799 Speaker 1: look and understand that decomposition is going going on, but 637 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:06,319 Speaker 1: is it obscuring an injury? And that's tough, that's particularly 638 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:10,080 Speaker 1: tough to do at the scene. And here's the other thing. 639 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:12,920 Speaker 1: You know, there's like that little person within you that 640 00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:15,440 Speaker 1: is screaming, get me out of here. I don't want 641 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,279 Speaker 1: to be in this environment. I'm smelling this, I'm sensing it. 642 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,359 Speaker 1: I'm even having flies come off of the body and 643 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:27,680 Speaker 1: land on me. And that does happen. But yet you're 644 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:32,160 Speaker 1: having to look at these cases because of the level 645 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:35,839 Speaker 1: of decomposition, even more closely because things now are obscured, 646 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,040 Speaker 1: So you're having to match yourself intellectually, you know, to 647 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,640 Speaker 1: try to understand this is the science, it's a natural process. 648 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,480 Speaker 1: Decomposition of body is breaking down. But I've got so 649 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:49,399 Speaker 1: much change that's taking place in the body as I'm 650 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,800 Speaker 1: looking at this, is it obscuring something? And am I missing? 651 00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,320 Speaker 1: And this is one of the reasons on body backs 652 00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,800 Speaker 1: we you know, will we will hear these cases where 653 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,920 Speaker 1: forensic pathologist even will say the body was so far 654 00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:06,080 Speaker 1: gone we couldn't appreciate if there was any trauma in 655 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:08,520 Speaker 1: the neck. Well, what they're saying about that is that 656 00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:12,359 Speaker 1: there's so much decomposition going around the head and the 657 00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:16,839 Speaker 1: neck that upon initial observation, they couldn't appreciate any kind 658 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:19,520 Speaker 1: of focal areas of hemorrhage, like where somebody had grabbed 659 00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,319 Speaker 1: somebody by the neck or use the ligature, or the 660 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,600 Speaker 1: person been struck in the head. You really, and it's 661 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:31,680 Speaker 1: counterintuitive because it's like the cases that as you know, 662 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:35,000 Speaker 1: your own personal humanity is screaming to put as much 663 00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:40,440 Speaker 1: distance between yourself and this offensive remain that is in 664 00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:43,120 Speaker 1: front of you. You have to anchor yourself. You have 665 00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:45,520 Speaker 1: to screw yourself to the floor and stand there because 666 00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:47,920 Speaker 1: you have to pay more attention, Dave. You have to 667 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,799 Speaker 1: pay more attention in this context, at the scene and 668 00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:53,040 Speaker 1: at the morgue, because I got to tell you something. 669 00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:56,520 Speaker 1: If you can't get past the horror, if you can't 670 00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:02,960 Speaker 1: get past these natural biological changes, you are missing something. 671 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:08,720 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybags.