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Speaker 1: On the Bechdel Cast, the questions asked if movies have

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Speaker 1: women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

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Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy. Zephy and

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Speaker 1: Beast start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 2: Mister Jamie, I'm ready for my close up.

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Speaker 1: Bad news. You're under arrest. No nor acab includes particularly

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Speaker 1: the cops that arrested Norma Desmond. She did nothing wrong.

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Speaker 1: All she did was have a dream.

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Speaker 2: Murdering a male screenwriter is not against the law.

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Speaker 1: Brutal, brutal. I feel like the movie does feel that

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Speaker 1: way a little bit, but maybe I'm just prigeting. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to the Bechdel Cast. We are washed up podcast stars.

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Speaker 1: They're oh god, you know, really, is it like the

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Speaker 1: second you turned thirty that you're like, oh, Norma does

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Speaker 1: but you know, bushy wrong.

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Speaker 2: She's got some interesting ID you know, maybe she's onto something.

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Speaker 1: Maybe I should live with a little chimpanzee at my

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Speaker 1: house and would that be so bad? Oh?

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Speaker 2: I felt so bad for that really weird looking chimp.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what the prop department was doing, but.

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Speaker 1: It was like, what, Okay, I'm not even gonna say it,

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Speaker 1: there's something Nope, never mind, Okay, Yeah, I'm washed Up

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Speaker 1: Podcast star Jamie Loftus.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Washed Up Podcast star Caitlin Dernte And this

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Speaker 2: is our washed Up podcast. Hell yeah, where we examine

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Speaker 2: movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechdel Test

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Speaker 2: as a jumping off point.

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Speaker 1: Oh, this movie has a fun pass there. Yeah, what

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Speaker 1: just happened to my brain? Holy shit? Happy New Year? Yes,

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Speaker 1: and here's what the Bechdel test. We're too washed up

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Speaker 1: to even talk. Oh my god, so sorry. Our brains

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Speaker 1: are just so old and decaying that we don't even know.

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Speaker 1: We think we're on the set of soloam or whatever?

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Speaker 1: Can you keeps spacing out in the middle of this

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Speaker 1: recording and being like solo where what? Anyways? Sorry, our

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Speaker 1: feeble little brains aren't working. The Bechdel Test is a

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Speaker 1: media metric originally created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel with

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Speaker 1: her friend Liz Wallace, which is why it's often called

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Speaker 1: the Bechdel Wallace Test. It was originally created just as

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Speaker 1: a one off joke in her excellent comic Dikes to

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Speaker 1: Watch Out For, as a way of drawing attention to

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Speaker 1: how little queer representation there was and how infrequently women

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Speaker 1: spoke to each other. Lots of versions of the test.

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Speaker 1: Our version is this, we require that a character of

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Speaker 1: a marginalized gender with a name speak to another character

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Speaker 1: of a marginalized gender with a name about something other

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Speaker 1: than a man, for two lines of dialogue. Most movies

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Speaker 1: don't do it. Past present, and I'll say it future.

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Speaker 1: I don't think we moved the needle very much, but

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Speaker 1: that's okay. And today we are discussing a movie that

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Speaker 1: has been on our request list forever and one that

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Speaker 1: just felt like it would be fun because it features

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Speaker 1: the most depressing New Year's Party ever committed to film, truly,

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Speaker 1: And we just hit the New Year, and so it's

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Speaker 1: high time we cover Sunset Bulevard nineteen fifty directed by

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Speaker 1: Billy wild At. That's so true. Who is German not Australian? Yeah? Wait,

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Speaker 1: huge news. Caitlin and I were talking to an Australian

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Speaker 1: guy the other night at a New Year's party that

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Speaker 1: was not depressing. It was very fun. It was very fun,

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Speaker 1: and he complimented your Australian accent.

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Speaker 2: He did and did. I felt so honored.

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Speaker 1: It was truly like, in the seven years we've been

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Speaker 1: doing this, the first time we've received active encouragement from

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Speaker 1: an authority and it felt really good. Yeah, so thank

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Speaker 1: you Trint for for the compliments that did not pass

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Speaker 1: the Bechdel test. So hope you're taking notes, Hope you're

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Speaker 1: keeping up correct.

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Speaker 2: You know what is going to pass the Bechdel test though,

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Speaker 2: is when we take a little detour to plug the

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Speaker 2: tour that we have coming up.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it will totally pass the Bechdel test because a

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Speaker 1: tour is famously genderless.

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Speaker 2: And it's about Barbie, the Barbie Movie.

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Speaker 1: I'm really excited. I just don't have a bone of

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Speaker 1: hate in my body for the Barbie Movie, except for

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Speaker 1: the few that we'll talk about at the show. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we were touring five cities coming up at the beginning

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Speaker 1: of February. We are covering the Barbie Movie in every city.

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Speaker 1: February first, we'll be at SF Sketch Fest in San Francisco.

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Speaker 1: February second will be going over to Sacramento. Oh, Greta

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Speaker 1: Gerwig vibes much everything about that Lady Bird. Our Barbie

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Speaker 1: show there is sold out, but we still have tickets

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Speaker 1: available to our second show, which is about the Wolf

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Speaker 1: of Wall Street, which is like basically the same movie

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Speaker 1: on same experience. You'll be fine, too much. Bring the luds, yes, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Then after that we are heading to Texas and doing

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Speaker 2: a show in Dallas on February third, a show in

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Speaker 2: Austin on February fifth, and then we are circling back

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Speaker 2: around to southern California and doing a show in San

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Speaker 2: Diego on February tenth, recovering Barbie at all of those shows,

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Speaker 2: and tickets are still available, although they're going fast, so yes,

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Speaker 2: make sure you grab your tickets, which you can do

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Speaker 2: at Link Tree Slash Bechtel Cast. And you're gonna want

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Speaker 2: to see us live because here's the thing we put

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Speaker 2: on a show. It's a spectacle. Okay. We are ready

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Speaker 2: for our close up at these live shows, you know

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Speaker 2: we are. Certainly we wear outfits, we do slide shows

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Speaker 2: if we have time, we do audience Q and.

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Speaker 1: A sound really exciting. We wear close and there's we

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Speaker 1: played games, we've sung, we've danced. We really put on.

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Speaker 2: The eat sometimes on stage.

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Speaker 1: We do didn't have to be fed. It's kind of like,

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Speaker 1: you know, a crossover between like a fetish video and

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Speaker 1: a sexy college lecture, so so coming down and then

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Speaker 1: we always we have tour exclusive merch and then we

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Speaker 1: do meet in greats afterwards. So yeah, it's it's always

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Speaker 1: a fun time and we hope to see you there. Indeed,

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Speaker 1: don't believe we could have a fun time talking about

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Speaker 1: a movie. Well, listen to this, Caitlyn, what's your experience

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Speaker 1: with the movie Sunset Boulevard.

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Speaker 2: So I saw it for the first time either late

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Speaker 2: in high school or early college. I would have been

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Speaker 2: like seventeen eighteen something like that. I knew that it

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Speaker 2: was a very culturally significant movie, you know, one of

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Speaker 2: the greats from the classic Hollywood era. So it's been

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Speaker 2: on my radar for a very long time. And yeah,

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Speaker 2: I watched it once then probably once again for like

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Speaker 2: a film school assignment, and then maybe even a second

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Speaker 2: time for a film school assignment when I did go

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Speaker 2: and get my master's degree in screenwriting at Boston University,

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Speaker 2: a fact that I never mention, and you know who

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Speaker 2: probably doesn't have a master's in screenwriting from Boston University

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Speaker 2: is Joe Gillis.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I was like, whoa, why are we yelling at me? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's true, it's true, and that's why he's such a

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Speaker 1: failure exactly, and maybe that's why he died. It makes

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Speaker 1: you think, Yeah, I have a similar experience with this movie.

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Speaker 1: I hadn't seen it in a bit, but I would

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Speaker 1: consider it in sort of my top tier of movies.

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Speaker 1: I've seen it many times. I saw it for the

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Speaker 1: first time, I think in college first just for fun

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Speaker 1: or like the film program, like we've discussed like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I have to watch this movie because like this movie

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Speaker 1: is I think, like fantastic, and it's also heavily assigned.

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Speaker 1: I've like a lot of people watch this movie for school,

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Speaker 1: and maybe more people should watch it for fun because

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Speaker 1: it's fun to watch. But yeah, I think I've mentioned

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Speaker 1: this in the show in past years. I took this

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Speaker 1: class in college that not only aged tremendously poorly, but

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Speaker 1: at the time students were like what the fuck. I

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Speaker 1: had a class called Wilder, Allan and Kaufman, and I

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Speaker 1: took heavy objection to it exactly one of those directors.

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to. I wanted to study the other

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Speaker 1: two and not the middle one. Blah blah blah. It

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Speaker 1: was like twenty thirteen, and they were like, shut up. Anyways,

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Speaker 1: I quite enjoyed the Wilder portions of that class, in

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Speaker 1: the Kaffman portions, but for the sake of this conversation,

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Speaker 1: I sort of became a proper Billy Wilder fan through

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Speaker 1: taking that class. I think he's a really fascinating person, complicated,

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Speaker 1: certainly imperfect, but like I really like his work. And

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think this is my favorite Billy Wilder movie.

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Speaker 1: But I mean it is like kind of not to

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Speaker 1: like start the episode out by like handing it to

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Speaker 1: a man, but I really really like, I mean, the

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Speaker 1: amount of incredibly influential movies that he turned out in

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Speaker 1: this course of his career is absolutely I'll say it

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Speaker 1: is Wilder. Wow.

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Speaker 2: I mean, You've got Double Indemnity, which we have covered

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Speaker 2: a couple of years ago on the show with Anita Sarkisian.

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Speaker 2: We have not covered, but other very notable movies of

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Speaker 2: his include The Seven Year Itch, The Apartment, and Some

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Speaker 2: Like It Hot, which is probably my favorite Wilder movie.

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Speaker 1: I mean, like it's almost like a three way time

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Speaker 1: between ugh, because we were also talking about covering The

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Speaker 1: Apartment this week, because it's also like a holiday time movie.

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Speaker 1: It might be a tie between the Sunset Boulevard and

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Speaker 1: The Apartment for me, but some like it Hot is

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Speaker 1: also so great. See he also directed Sabrina like he

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Speaker 1: did a lot of great work. And I was trying

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Speaker 1: to read where I know that he had contentious relationships

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Speaker 1: with actors and actresses. It seemed like but I think

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Speaker 1: he's been through several rounds of film buff discourse of

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Speaker 1: is his work pro women, is his work anti women?

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Speaker 1: I think the answer, as with most people, is like

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Speaker 1: somewhere in the middle, and it depends from text to text,

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Speaker 1: and it depends on the years coming out all this stuff.

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Speaker 1: I love Sunset Boulevard. I love the performances in it,

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Speaker 1: and I really I mean, I hadn't watched it, I

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Speaker 1: want to say, for maybe like three or four years,

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Speaker 1: and there's so much to talk about. But I think

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Speaker 1: as it's probably my favorite movie about movies. It's a

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Speaker 1: good one. Yeah, And I feel like it still has

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Speaker 1: a lot to say in a way that feels like

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Speaker 1: kind of depressingly not dated. This movie is over seventy

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Speaker 1: years old, and it still feels like what it's saying

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Speaker 1: is still very relevant to how the movie and just works,

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Speaker 1: but also very specific to the silent era and like,

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Speaker 1: I'm really excited to talk about the context of this

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Speaker 1: movie because Norma Dusmond is such a complex character that

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Speaker 1: I feel like you can view a million ways, some

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Speaker 1: of which are we'll talk about all one million. I

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Speaker 1: just have like such, I can't imagine being Glorious Swanson

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Speaker 1: and having like this experience and then being like, here's

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Speaker 1: the character, and then not just being like, Okay, I

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Speaker 1: can compartmentalize my entire life and career and play this

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Speaker 1: caricature of an actor and while watching my movies that

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Speaker 1: were directed by.

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Speaker 2: Marriage and whatever, yeah, and.

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Speaker 1: That movie was directed by him, and like compartmentalize it

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Speaker 1: and not just be able to compartmentalize it, but like

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Speaker 1: deliver such an iconic performance that like is so stripped

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Speaker 1: of artifice, and like it's just and I have issues

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Speaker 1: with that in some but I just like, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I can't watch this movie and not be like, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, I don't know if I could even consider

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Speaker 1: doing something that would require compartmentalizing your ego to that extent.

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Speaker 2: It's unbelievable, I know, right Well, shall we get into

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Speaker 2: it with the recap.

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Speaker 1: Let's do it.

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Speaker 2: Let's take a quick break first, and then we'll come back.

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Speaker 1: And where we're back.

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Speaker 2: All right, So here's the recap of Sunset Boulevard. But

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Speaker 2: before that'll place a content warning for suicide as well

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Speaker 2: as emotional abuse in a partnership.

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Speaker 1: If you're triggered by a character named hog Eye. Hog Eye,

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Speaker 1: I have so many questions about Haguy? What was going on?

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Speaker 1: How Guy? There are a few lines in this movie

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Speaker 1: that are obviously, like, very famous, whether you've seen the

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Speaker 1: movie or not. But hello, haw Guy. You're like, whoa,

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Speaker 1: that's the greatest line rate I've ever heard.

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Speaker 2: Because it's also not clear because he identifies himself if

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Speaker 2: she remembers so yeah, he says, Hey, it's me, how Guy,

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Speaker 2: and then she responds hello guy, but it's we don't

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Speaker 2: know if she recognizes him and knows him or if

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Speaker 2: she's just like being like.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna guess she does, so I'm gonna guess she's

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Speaker 1: actively listening. But just like the way she greets ha

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Speaker 1: guy and he's so thrilled iconic, Oh my god, yeallo

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Speaker 1: all right EPISP.

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Speaker 2: The movie opens on Sunset Boulevard in Los Angeles, California.

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Speaker 1: I've ever heard of it? Oh, I can see it

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Speaker 1: from my freaking house. Oh my gosh, I can't wait

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Speaker 1: to die in a pool. Okay, So the police are

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Speaker 1: heading to a huge mansion on Sunset Boulevard to investigate

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Speaker 1: a homicide because the body of a man was found

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Speaker 1: floating in the pool of a movie star. Yes, I

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Speaker 1: feel like you know, narration is so often like overused

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Speaker 1: or like as a lazy tool, but it rocks in

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Speaker 1: this movie. And there's also that sort of moment where

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Speaker 1: like Joe the William Holton character, as like, this isn't

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Speaker 1: a famous thing to say yet, but he's like, you're

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Speaker 1: kind of wondering how I got here. Huh, well, it's

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Speaker 1: kind of a weird story.

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Speaker 2: We go take it back, like, let's flash back to

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Speaker 2: six months earlier where we meet and we get voiceover

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Speaker 2: narration from a struggling screenwriter who, again I can only

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Speaker 2: assume is struggling because he doesn't have a master's degree

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Speaker 2: in screenwriting.

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Speaker 1: It's so yeah watching this, I mean, just like individually,

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Speaker 1: you're just like, wow, I don't like that I can

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Speaker 1: relate with Joe and Norman No Bad and Betty like,

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Speaker 1: oh I know, it's almost like it's a really good movie.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Wow, Okay, So This screenwriter is Joe Gillis played

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Speaker 2: by William Holden, and some men show up at his

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Speaker 2: apartment to try to repossess his car because he's several

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Speaker 2: months behind on payments. He needs some quick cash. He

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Speaker 2: mentions two hundred and ninety dollars, which is nearly four

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Speaker 2: thousand dollars in today's money. Bad and that situation, yes,

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Speaker 2: So he's trying to go around town and borrow money

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Speaker 2: from friends.

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Speaker 1: No luck.

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Speaker 2: He also goes to Paramount to pitch a story idea,

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Speaker 2: hoping that he can sell a script, but the producer

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Speaker 2: isn't interested because a script reader named Betty played by

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Speaker 2: Nancy Olsen is like, yeah, I read that script and

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Speaker 2: it sucked.

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Speaker 1: So I honestly it's like, you have such Betty, I

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Speaker 1: kept writing down Caitlyn vibes when he's like, what do

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Speaker 1: you think?

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Speaker 2: She would just be like nu, it's a trite and boring.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And then they meet up again later and you're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: she's good, but she's just as hard. She's just like, no,

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Speaker 1: it's bad. I still don't like it.

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Speaker 2: But then she's also like, but I've heard your talented

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Speaker 2: and I can see your potential, so let's collaborate and.

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Speaker 1: Right, which is like at least grounded in the fact

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Speaker 1: that she's seen work of his that she liked, but

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Speaker 1: like none of the work of his that she liked

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Speaker 1: has ever been produced, which does feel true to far. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I really like that exchange between them where she's like,

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Speaker 1: I heard you had talent and he's like, not this year.

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to work this year. I'm like, damn me too,

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Speaker 1: me too.

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Speaker 2: Man relatable. Yeah, Okay. So Joe leaves and while he's

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Speaker 2: driving down Sunset Boulevard, he spots the guys who are

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Speaker 2: trying to repoe his car, so he speeds away and

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Speaker 2: ends up in the driveway of what appears to be

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Speaker 2: an abandoned mansion, and he hides his car in the

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Speaker 2: empty garage. His plan is basically to skip town, take

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Speaker 2: a bus back to Ohio, and kind of just like

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Speaker 2: give up on the Hollywood life. But as he's there

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Speaker 2: examining this mansion, he hears a woman's voice and it

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Speaker 2: turns out the house has not been abandoned. Then a

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Speaker 2: butler named Max played by Eric von Stroheim, who, if

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Speaker 2: you don't know, is a prominent Silent film era director

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Speaker 2: who directed a movie starring Gloria Swanson, and.

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Speaker 1: Don't worry they show a clip of it. Don't screen

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Speaker 1: it this god.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So anyway, Max the butler shows Joe inside and

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Speaker 2: the woman whose voice we heard had mistaken Joe for

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Speaker 2: being an undertaker who's there to remove the body of

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Speaker 2: a dead chin.

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Speaker 1: Pansy monkey undertaker. Yeah what, and the chimpanzee has been dead.

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Speaker 1: I dare I say for a while, it seems like

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Speaker 1: so it looks dry, uh huh, yucky, it's nasty. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: it's real meet cute. At the top, they kind of

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Speaker 1: do like start vibing immediately, like you know, it's fundamentally

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Speaker 1: an abusive relationship with this first encounter, I'm like, are

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Speaker 1: they vibing right now over the whole dead monkey situation?

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Speaker 2: But in a very it's like a very neggy Yeah

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Speaker 2: both ways with these two way nagging street they're weirdos,

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Speaker 2: they're sick. So anyway, Joe is like, you got the

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Speaker 2: wrong guy, But wait a minute, I recognize you because

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Speaker 2: the woman is Norma Desmond played by Gloria Swanson, a

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Speaker 2: silent movie star who used to be very famous but

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Speaker 2: hasn't worked as an actor since talkies became popular, which

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Speaker 2: is something that we learn she deeply resents that you know,

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Speaker 2: she's not working anymore, and.

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Speaker 1: That she hasn't completely accepted that she is no longer

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Speaker 1: a big current start, and also that she struggles to

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Speaker 1: accept the fact that she's aging and accept her own

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Speaker 1: mortality because of how older women are treated in Hollywood,

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Speaker 1: which I feel like this is one of the few

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Speaker 1: movies of this era that like, well, we'll get into it,

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Speaker 1: but like it's at least suggested and clear that there

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Speaker 1: is a systemic reason that she's trained to see herself.

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Speaker 1: It's all over the place, but like, I feel like

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Speaker 1: it's clearer than you know, normally you see a woman

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Speaker 1: over forty much less fifty that the call is coming

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Speaker 1: from inside the house, and this is just something that

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Speaker 1: happens at least this movie, I think. Does a lot

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Speaker 1: of current movies do to contextualize it. Yeah, true, but

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Speaker 1: it doesn't free her from you know, the troupes, all

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Speaker 1: that stuff. It's so we're covering well, yeah, I guess

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Speaker 1: this will come out in sequential order. We're covering May

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Speaker 1: December coming up next week, and I know it's just

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Speaker 1: because we've been sort of preparing for these episodes beside

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Speaker 1: each other. But there are these like interesting parallels between

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Speaker 1: you know, just like an older woman and by old,

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Speaker 1: you know a woman over fifty, right, yeah, whose whole

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Speaker 1: life has been constructed to protect her from reality, amongst

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Speaker 1: other things. But it was just interesting watching those movies

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Speaker 1: side by side and being like, oh, obviously I know

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Speaker 1: that Todd Haynes has seen Sunset Boulevard, but there is

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Speaker 1: like just the haunted house feel to it for sure. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was also getting some misery parallels. Sure, yeah,

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Speaker 2: a movie we covered some time years ago. Yeah, And

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Speaker 2: I was like, wow, I bet Stephen King watched.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. It's like, oh, I love having the genius thought

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Speaker 1: that maybe a famous director has seen one of the

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Speaker 1: most famous movies ever, Like could it be? Are you anyway?

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Speaker 2: So Joe recognizes Norma Desmond and she's like, oh, wait

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Speaker 2: a minute, you're a writer. Well, I wrote a story

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Speaker 2: about Slome that I want Cecil B. Demill to direct,

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Speaker 2: and she wants Joe to read her very long, handwritten script.

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Speaker 1: It's got Santi University vibes. I was like, wow, literally,

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Speaker 1: Norma Desmond wrote her Santi University. And also she's like,

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Speaker 1: and no one will produce it.

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Speaker 2: It's six hundred pages.

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Speaker 1: Yep. She won't take.

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Speaker 2: Notes, certainly not, And so Joe starts reading it and

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Speaker 2: it turns out to be like poorly written, melodramatic drivel.

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Speaker 2: But Joe realizes that he can try to squeeze some

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Speaker 2: money out of Norma if he offers to rewrite the script. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and she's like, well, you're Sagittarius, so I can trust

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Speaker 2: you again.

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Speaker 1: It's like, no, No, that's the worst reasoning I've ever heard.

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Speaker 2: There's another scene later on where she's talking about, like

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Speaker 2: today is the exact right day to drop off the

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Speaker 2: script to Cecil b de Mill because of like the

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Speaker 2: alignments of the planets and how she's a blah blah

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Speaker 2: blah and he's a leah or whatever.

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Speaker 1: Like she's like, la women are going to LA women.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't matter what decade it is, exactly the position

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Speaker 1: of the stars is what is going to make or

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Speaker 1: break their flopping career, you know, sure, yeah yeah, And

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Speaker 1: also like we don't even need to ascribe a gender

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Speaker 1: to it. That's just simply what it's like out here

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Speaker 1: in general. It's true. And if you live in La

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Speaker 1: and you think you're immune to it, you just haven't

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Speaker 1: lived here long enough. I don't think.

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Speaker 2: I quite recently was like, okay, fine, I'll finally figure

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Speaker 2: out what my like rising and moon signs are.

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Speaker 1: Oh gosh, wait, you should get a chart reading from

385
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Speaker 1: my friend Cameron. Shout out Cameron Farmer's chart. My boyfriend

386
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Speaker 1: just got his chart read by them, because he also

387
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:16,560
Speaker 1: was like, okay, you win, La, you win. I will

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Speaker 1: find out about the start I know.

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Speaker 2: And then also a few years ago, I bought crystals.

390
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:23,399
Speaker 2: I went to House of Intuition, I remember, and I

391
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 2: bought crystals because I was like, these are gonna change

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Speaker 2: my life and did they certainly not.

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Speaker 1: But they're pretty A bunch of people just threw their

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Speaker 1: phone in across the They're just like god, damn it.

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Speaker 1: They're all like this. It's kind of true, but like,

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Speaker 1: you know, victimist crime unless you get into like a

397
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Speaker 1: wellness called don't do it. Don't do that, just don't

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Speaker 1: do that, just don't Yeah exactly. Anyways, Norma Desmond not immune.

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Speaker 1: I was just it was funny to be like, oh wow,

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifty and yeah, yeah, it's just always been like that.

401
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't realize it, but it's true. Good for

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Speaker 2: her Okay, So Norma has Joe read the rest of

403
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Speaker 2: her script. She makes him stay the night to finish

404
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,399
Speaker 2: reading it because she won't let the script leave her house.

405
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Speaker 2: She sets up a room for him and he's like, Okay,

406
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,639
Speaker 2: this is fucking weird, but whatever, I need money.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Then he wakes up to discover that Norma had her butler, Max,

409
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Speaker 2: bring all of Joe's stuff to her home. Basically, she

410
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Speaker 2: wants him to move in while he's working on her script,

411
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 2: and he's upset and freaked out, but he decides to

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Speaker 2: get to work and get it over with as quickly

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Speaker 2: as possible. But Norma is like hovering over him. She's

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Speaker 2: being very controlling, and it's also clear, like you previously

415
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Speaker 2: mentioned Jamie, that she's like she's been very sheltered. She's

416
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Speaker 2: perhaps delusional. She's also very egotistical.

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Speaker 1: And there's a big twist that like triple validates this

418
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,800
Speaker 1: late in the moon, but like, it still feels very

419
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Speaker 1: like Max is like her protector. It's how I think

420
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 1: of my eldest cat, Flee. Flee has Max vibes where

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Speaker 1: he's like, don't disturb her, she's working.

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00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 2: But yeah, she she's very like self absorbed She's always

423
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 2: responding to fan mail from her adoring fans. She always

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00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 2: insists on watching her own movies, things like that the.

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Speaker 1: Fan mail thing was another May December overlap for me,

426
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 1: where the Juliete more character like it's the same three

427
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:41,160
Speaker 1: neighbors keeping her bakery in business to appease her, and like, yeah,

428
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:46,440
Speaker 1: just sort of this like privileged but contextually upsetting and

429
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 1: like fundamental, like just the bubble that you're stuck in. Granted,

430
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,159
Speaker 1: I have far more empathy for Norma, and you know

431
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 1: she knew what she had to do.

432
00:25:55,119 --> 00:26:01,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, So more time passes and a dynamic starts to

433
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 2: emerge between Norma and Joe, where basically she becomes his

434
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 2: sugar mama.

435
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 1: Whoa, I said, I don't think I've ever heard you

436
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 1: say that phrase out loud.

437
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,879
Speaker 2: It felt so weird coming out of my mouth. I'm

438
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 2: not gonna lie. Someone clipped that, is that even the

439
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:20,959
Speaker 2: term sugar mama?

440
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 1: Is that any So sugar mommy, sugar mommy? I don't know.

441
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think sugar mommy, sugar daddy. Yeah,

442
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,120
Speaker 1: but then sugar mama is a character on the Proud Family,

443
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 1: And so how do we square that we don't know.

444
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 2: The bottom line is Joe is her sugar baby.

445
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 1: That's definitely true. That's okay, okay, and we're back.

446
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 2: And we're back, and Norma seems to be into him,

447
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,719
Speaker 2: but he at present is not into her.

448
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: Yeah.

449
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 2: We also around this time find out that Max the

450
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 2: Butler is the one who is sending all of the

451
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 2: fan mail to Norma, and so Joe is like, yikes, okay.

452
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,959
Speaker 2: Then he attends Norma's New Year's Eve party, except that

453
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:16,440
Speaker 2: Joe is the only one who Norma invited and because

454
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 2: she's in love with him.

455
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, and she's like being actively predatory, creepy yeah, And

456
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 1: so he's creeped out and he leaves and goes to

457
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 1: his friends New Year's Eve party hosted by Artie, who

458
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 1: says that Joe can stay with him for a few

459
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,200
Speaker 1: weeks because Joe's trying to get the hell out of there.

460
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 1: Artie really gets the short end of the stick of it.

461
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:40,879
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess Joe dies, so that doesn't end

462
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 1: very well for him, but there is like a poor

463
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: Arty later on. I'm like, already did nothing wrong except

464
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,360
Speaker 1: ask someone to come to Arizona, which is like generally

465
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 1: do that, No offense to all of our treasure. We

466
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 1: just got so many subscriber Oh you la, people think

467
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 1: you're better than Aaron Zona. And here's why the stars

468
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 1: are on my side. Just kidding, I don't know what

469
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:05,880
Speaker 1: I'm talking about.

470
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 2: Let's get Yeah, don't listen to us anyway. Artie's girlfriend

471
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 2: is Betty, the script reader from earlier, who mentions to

472
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,400
Speaker 2: Joe that she has read another one of his scripts

473
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 2: and she's like, it does suck for the most part,

474
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 2: but there's this flashback with a teacher character that has

475
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 2: a lot of potential. Yeah, so they're talking about that.

476
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:35,640
Speaker 1: Betty's good at her job, like she's direct, but she's

477
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 1: also constructed, like the lady knows what she's doing exactly,

478
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:41,959
Speaker 1: and she's only twenty two. She's got a future in

479
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 1: this town. Tell me about it. Well, we'll get there.

480
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 1: But it's just like, God, I mean, I guess you

481
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:50,719
Speaker 1: already know that Joe dies. I'm just like, you know,

482
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 1: he really would have been dead weight and her life

483
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 1: so sorry, sorry, But also like, what she gonna do

484
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,080
Speaker 1: move to Arizona? I sure hope not. I hope she

485
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 1: was like, Hey, I just need to be single for

486
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 1: a while. I think that that's that's why she does

487
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 1: do that.

488
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, but before then she and Joe are flirting a

489
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 2: little bit, even though Artie is in the next room,

490
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 2: and so.

491
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 1: That's not very that's not very nice. And then also

492
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, she's twenty two or whatever. Yeah.

493
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 2: So then Joe discovers that Norma is horribly distraught and

494
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 2: that she attempted suicide after he left her New Year's

495
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 2: Eve party, so he hurries back to her house to

496
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 2: comfort her, and then they kiss, and then it fades

497
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 2: to black, which I feel implies they have sex.

498
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 1: I'm on board with.

499
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yes, So now Norma and Joe are like together.

500
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 1: I love what it says on scholarly journal Wikipedia that

501
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 1: maybe laughed. Joe returns to Norma and there relationship becomes

502
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 1: non platonic. Oh they fuck, They fuck? Yeah hard. I mean,

503
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 1: I don't know, we don't know, we don't know.

504
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 2: The production code wouldn't show it.

505
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm like, the writers new, the writers do it.

506
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 1: I believe Billy Wilder knew how Norma fucks, but we

507
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 1: just weren't privy to that information.

508
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Joe and Norma are together now. But also

509
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 2: Joe bumps into Betty again, and she is urging him

510
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 2: to work with her on this script idea, and he's like,

511
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 2: I don't know, we'll see. Then the script of Norma's

512
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 2: that Joe has been rewriting is finished and it gets

513
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 2: dropped off at Paramount Studios. And then a few days later,

514
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 2: Norma and Joe go to Paramount to see cecil B

515
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 2: de Mille, and Norma thinks that he wants to direct

516
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 2: her movie. But it's clear to us, though not clear

517
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 2: to Norma, that Demil thinks she's a nuisance and he

518
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 2: wants nothing to do with her.

519
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 1: I'm excited to talk about this scene. It's a devastating scene.

520
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 1: It's yeah, yeah, it's brutal, really is. And this is

521
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 1: also where our friend Hagye shows up, so we have

522
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 1: to get hello, hai guy.

523
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 2: He spins a spotlight around and shines it on her,

524
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 2: and she's like, yes, this is where I meant to be.

525
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: And you know, Hagy got an earfull from all the mail.

526
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 1: Probably got fired for that. God. I hope not. I

527
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 1: hope not. He's worked there for years. Katelie's I mean

528
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 1: the silent era, you can't fire Hog. I let him

529
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 1: off of the warning.

530
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 2: I seriously, I know. Anyway, So, thinking that she is

531
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 2: going to star in a movie soon and make the

532
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 2: triumphant return to the screen, Norma starts getting all kinds

533
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 2: of facials and massages and beauty treatments. She starts counting

534
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 2: calories things like that.

535
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 1: Meanwhile, women are still encouraged to do today well and

536
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 1: also any actor.

537
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 2: But right, yes, yeah, but especially the pressure because women

538
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 2: are so highly valued for their appearance and their youth,

539
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 2: that pressure is especially placed on women and fans. Yes, okay. Meanwhile,

540
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 2: Joe has been sneaking out every night to meet up

541
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 2: with Betty so that they can write this script about

542
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 2: the teachers together. And also they're vibing even though she

543
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 2: is now engaged to Artie, who is I think working

544
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 2: on a film in Arizona. Anyway, One night, Max catches

545
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 2: Joe as he's returning from sneaking out, and Joe is like, Max,

546
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 2: we have to put an end to this charade. What

547
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 2: happens when she finds out that there is no Demill

548
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 2: movie and Max is like, she'll never find out. I

549
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 2: was the one who made her a star and I'll

550
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 2: keep her that way. And then this is where Max

551
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 2: reveals that he directed all of her early movies, and

552
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 2: that he was Norma's first husband.

553
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 1: Why wild That twist never ceases to be, like, so

554
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 1: you're doing what right?

555
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 2: And I think, let me know if I have this right.

556
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 2: But it seems as though they were together and then

557
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 2: she rose to stardom and then left him and he

558
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 2: couldn't handle it and he came crawling back, and then

559
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 2: she made him her servant.

560
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 1: Is that what happened? It seems like I would say

561
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 1: he certainly is still in love with her, yeah, and

562
00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 1: also has this sort of paternalistic control over her life too,

563
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: because it's like I hadn't ever really like thought past, like, well,

564
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 1: what would Norma's life look like if Max wasn't there?

565
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 1: And I think that like he clearly thinks that she

566
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 1: would be actively suffering without him, preserving this delusion and

567
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: kind of keeping her trapped in this house to an

568
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 1: extent by taking you know, making sure all of her

569
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 1: needs are met. But I you know, it's like possibly

570
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 1: not like you will never know because you know she's

571
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 1: been preserved in this place. I don't know, Yeah, Like

572
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 1: the push and pull of like Norma is absolutely an

573
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:40,399
Speaker 1: emotionally abusive person and like extremely manipulative sort of by

574
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 1: any means necessary, while having serious mental illness problems, will also,

575
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 1: by any means necessary, keep the people she wants around

576
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,359
Speaker 1: around her to preserve these delusions of grandeur that she has.

577
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 1: But it's also like there is so much patriarchy that

578
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 1: surrounds her, right, and like.

579
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:03,280
Speaker 2: She has this enabler who is like playing into this delusion.

580
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 2: So it's fair.

581
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a I mean, it's it's such a good movie, yeah,

582
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 1: because it's just like, yeah, the cycle of abuse is

583
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 1: present in every single character, and like you can argue

584
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 1: that the you know, Joe being straightforward with her is

585
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 1: a gift in a way, but it also is like

586
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 1: it's what gets him killed. It's it's good that this

587
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 1: will be demil sequence that leads into Max revealing that

588
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:33,799
Speaker 1: like she's Grew, I'm Kevin, and you're just like, huh,

589
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 1: got it. It is kind of a Grew Kevin situation.

590
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 1: If there was like three hundred Maxes, it would be

591
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 1: think about.

592
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 2: That, right, So Max is the Kevin le Mignon in

593
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 2: this scenario.

594
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 1: Dominions, He's all of the minions in one guy. If

595
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 1: Drew had married one of the ominions. Anyways, it doesn't

596
00:35:55,600 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 1: quite work in any case, we make.

597
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 2: This work, Okay. So we get all these like intense

598
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 2: reveals and we're like, oh my gosh. Meanwhile, Betty is

599
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 2: talking to Joe and she's like, I'm not in love

600
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 2: with my fiance Alretie and my fiance yes anymore. I'm

601
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,880
Speaker 2: in love with you, Joe. And then they smooch on

602
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 2: the lips. And so now Joe is trying to figure

603
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 2: out a way to leave Norma. But oh no, Norma,

604
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 2: unbeknownst to Joe, has found the script that he's been

605
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,959
Speaker 2: working on with Betty. So Norma calls Betty to tell

606
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:46,360
Speaker 2: her like what this situation actually is with Joe, like

607
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,839
Speaker 2: who he lives with, how he lives, who's bankrolling his

608
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 2: life basically, and then Betty goes over to Norma's house

609
00:36:55,719 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 2: to see for herself what's going on. Also, Norma has

610
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 2: bought a revolver, and we're like, okay, checkof's gun alert.

611
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. Literally, I think that that scene with Betty is

612
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 1: so I mean, like Joe, it makes sense what Joe's doing,

613
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 1: and I think that he is so overcome by like

614
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,880
Speaker 1: shame and frustration and at least I mean one of

615
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 1: the few men in movie history baby that can correctly

616
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 1: identify when he's no good for a woman and she's

617
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:34,880
Speaker 1: out of his league, and he is like, and I

618
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,799
Speaker 1: will move to Ohio, and you're like, wow, more men

619
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 1: should do that. So like he understands that, like, even

620
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 1: though he would like this relationship with Betty actively in

621
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 1: a way that I think kind of plays on movie

622
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:51,399
Speaker 1: tropes where it's like, you know, usually if you have

623
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,280
Speaker 1: the like, no we can't, they will by the end.

624
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 1: But like he at least has the presence of mind

625
00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 1: to be like, this relationship with Norma is too fucked up, yeah,

626
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 1: and it like speaks to like what is Norma really

627
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 1: a symbol of? But like, by extracting himself from that relationship,

628
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 1: he's also extracting himself from like the Hollywood machine, right,

629
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:13,959
Speaker 1: and everything fucked up about it.

630
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 2: And extracting himself from this cycle of abuse because he

631
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 2: has been lying to Betty and withholding all this information

632
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 2: from her, and that's so much of what's been happening

633
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 2: between like Norma and Max, and I think, right, Joe

634
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 2: realizes that he is like perpetuating that same cycle onto

635
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 2: Betty in a different way, but totally he's still very

636
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 2: much like withholding information from her. So he's like, I

637
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 2: don't I can't keep doing this. I don't want to

638
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 2: be a part of this period.

639
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think it's really interesting and like speaks

640
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:55,799
Speaker 1: to her naivete as like a younger character that like

641
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 1: he brings her in, tells her exactly like this is

642
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 1: the way I've been lying to you. It is tempting

643
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:05,279
Speaker 1: for me to stay for these very cynical reasons, and

644
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 1: she you know, I think again it's like a little

645
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 1: bit of a play on what we expect where she

646
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,879
Speaker 1: offers him forgiveness. You know, I could see that going

647
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,080
Speaker 1: either way, like she's horrified by it but offers him

648
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 1: a fresh start essentially, but again he rejects it. He's like, no,

649
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 1: I can't you know, because yeah, I think you're totally right,

650
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 1: like him, staying with Betty first of all, will absolutely

651
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 1: make her life worse and also will keep him in

652
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 1: this Hollywood cycle of abuse. And it's like, I feel

653
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 1: like we're led to believe weirdly that like Betty is

654
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 1: maybe it's not even you know, fast forward thirty years,

655
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 1: Betty is likely extremely jaded as well, because that's just

656
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 1: what happens yeah, but that like it seems like she

657
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 1: for reasons that it's like you know, aligning like youth

658
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,399
Speaker 1: and beauty with like they'll be fine. But I think

659
00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,720
Speaker 1: that it's like set up that she is better suited

660
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,879
Speaker 1: to this life because she's like it's a generational thing

661
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,360
Speaker 1: with her family and she's had this experience with acting

662
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 1: and leaving acting, and like she has the healthiest attitude

663
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:13,439
Speaker 1: about Hollywood out of anyone, And I think it's because

664
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 1: she's from there and like her parents do behind the

665
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 1: scenes work, so it's like the less ego driven positions

666
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 1: that are are sort of better suited to understand this

667
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:28,320
Speaker 1: is just how it goes if you work in this shitty,

668
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,759
Speaker 1: garbage industry. So I don't know, I sort of went

669
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 1: into this viewing being like, uh, how do I feel

670
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 1: about Betty? Is she an underwritten character? But like, I

671
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:38,439
Speaker 1: don't know. Coming out of it, I was like, I'm

672
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 1: never going to argue with more, but I feel like

673
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 1: it's really clear where she's coming from, and like not

674
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 1: that she is like higher functioning in this industry and

675
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:52,839
Speaker 1: like and it has a healthier attitude and avoid like

676
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 1: it does make sense to me why she's kind of

677
00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:59,359
Speaker 1: letting things roll off her shoulders but still works hard

678
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 1: kind of vibe.

679
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I'm excited to talk about her more

680
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 2: just because of her attitude toward the film industry and

681
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:14,240
Speaker 2: just kind of how that informs different things about her character.

682
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 2: But yeah, it's all very fascinating anyway. So Okay, Betty

683
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 2: is there at the house. Now. She's trying to encourage

684
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,800
Speaker 2: Joe to like run away with her and like escape

685
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:31,839
Speaker 2: this scenario and leave, and he's like, no, I've got

686
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:36,319
Speaker 2: a decent setup here. So Betty runs off heartbroken, but

687
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 2: Joe decides it is time for him to leave and

688
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 2: actually like go through with moving back to Ohio and

689
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 2: just getting out of Hollywood in general. So he starts

690
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 2: packing his belongings and Norma's like, what are you doing?

691
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,320
Speaker 2: Why are you leaving me? And he's like, wake up, Norma,

692
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 2: there is no Demil movie. The fan mail you get

693
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 2: is fake and you're not a star anymore. And that's okay,

694
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,399
Speaker 2: but you gotta face Fax. And then he goes to leave,

695
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 2: but Norma shoots him and he collapses in the pool dead.

696
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:17,399
Speaker 1: Great gas by vibes good for him, yes, So.

697
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 2: Then after this, Norma goes into a kind of like

698
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 2: fugue state where she completely disassociates and she's ignoring the

699
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 2: cops and the press who are there interrogating her until

700
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 2: the newsreel guys show up with cameras and she's like, cameras, well, okay,

701
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 2: And then she slowly heads down the stairs, thinking that

702
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 2: she's like in the middle of a scene, that she's

703
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 2: like back at the studio, that she has made her

704
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:51,360
Speaker 2: triumphant return. And this is where we get the famous

705
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 2: line from the movie, one of the famous lines from

706
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 2: the movie, often misquoted, mister demil, I'm ready for my

707
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 2: close up. And that's how the movie ends. So let's

708
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:05,560
Speaker 2: take a quick break and we will come back to discuss,

709
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:18,399
Speaker 2: and we're back.

710
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 1: We're back. Yeah. Part of what I find fascinating about

711
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,400
Speaker 1: the ending of that movie, just like reckoning back to

712
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 1: other movies we've covered and like that takes place in

713
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 1: the same sort of span of years, is that the

714
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:35,800
Speaker 1: ghost of Joe who's telling us this story, clearly thinks

715
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 1: that Norma's life is you know, He's like, well, I

716
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 1: don't know what happens to her. She probably won't serve

717
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:42,239
Speaker 1: a lot of prison time because she's so famous but like,

718
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 1: essentially his ghost is like she's fucked. But I'm like

719
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 1: kind of worked out for the ladies in Chicago who

720
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 1: were trying to pivot from Vaudeville into being Moidera's So

721
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:56,839
Speaker 1: I feel like, baby, she's got another act in her

722
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:02,319
Speaker 1: could be ded. He just named Richard Gear to be

723
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:06,360
Speaker 1: your lawyer, and you can really make things work. That's

724
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 1: how I feel. I wouldn't count Norma out, I wouldn't

725
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 1: counter out. Oh yeah, is that a good thing? I

726
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:18,839
Speaker 1: don't know. Okay, where shall we begin? Oh boy, let's see.

727
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 1: I mean I want to do a little context for

728
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 1: this movie, because it is like the context of it

729
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 1: is very important. Yeah, so this is, you know, as

730
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 1: we've already talked about a Billy Wilds a movie. He

731
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 1: was born in nineteen oh six. He's a Jewish director.

732
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:40,319
Speaker 1: He was born in Austria, Hungary, which either way, yeah,

733
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 1: he ultimately moved to America and began working in films.

734
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:48,960
Speaker 1: I believe that he did do some work in the

735
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 1: silent era, but mostly worked in the talkies, which exists

736
00:44:54,640 --> 00:45:00,080
Speaker 1: to this day. What in any case, this movie, it

737
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:05,840
Speaker 1: was extremely polarizing and sort of disliked in Hollywood. Communities.

738
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:09,719
Speaker 1: When it came out, it prompted Louis Bymyriage to say

739
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:14,800
Speaker 1: something very xenophobic to Billy Wilder. He said, you've disgraced

740
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:16,920
Speaker 1: the industry that made and fed you. You should be

741
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 1: tarred and feathered and run out of Hollywood. And he

742
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 1: kept going, oh, he like said get out of the country,

743
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 1: essentially implied that he should go back to Germany, which

744
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,360
Speaker 1: to say that to a Jewish director in nineteen fifty

745
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 1: is unfucking believable, and like Louis by mahor notorious monster,

746
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 1: but also speaks to like uh. Billy Wilder was a

747
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 1: very successful director within the studio system and within the

748
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 1: star system, and this was viewed as like, how dare

749
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 1: you bite the hand that feeds you or criticize the

750
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:50,840
Speaker 1: hand that feeds you, right, which is like fuck you,

751
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 1: which is exactly when Billy Wilder walked up to Louisimhor

752
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:59,280
Speaker 1: and said, he said, go fuck yourself girl. He was right. Okay.

753
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 1: The other thing that is, like we've already referenced, is

754
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 1: the fact that so many people, because this came out

755
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:10,720
Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty, this was the time that like silent

756
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 1: film stars that did not make the crossover into sound

757
00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 1: pictures were getting older and hadn't worked in a while.

758
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 1: This was Gloria Swanson's first movie in like nine years

759
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 1: at the time that she had kind of switched to do.

760
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 1: I think it's an interesting point in history, and like

761
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 1: the fact that this movie is as like brutal as

762
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 1: it is, it's really interesting because it's we were seeing

763
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:39,080
Speaker 1: around this time and like would continue even for like

764
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 1: old Hollywood stars that did crossover into talking movies, people

765
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:46,439
Speaker 1: like Betty Davis, at people like Joan Crawford, like they

766
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 1: would be pushed into television back on stage or if

767
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 1: they stated movies would often be cast you know, the

768
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:56,880
Speaker 1: only way to really get a leading role would be

769
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:01,960
Speaker 1: to do older woman bodyhorn, which you see, you know,

770
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:03,880
Speaker 1: as the years go on. Like I think whatever Happened

771
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 1: to Baby Jane is a huge example of that, where

772
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:10,840
Speaker 1: it's like, well, if you are a woman over fifty

773
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 1: working at Hollywood and you want to work outside of

774
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 1: like the kindly mother role, what are your options? And

775
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:22,000
Speaker 1: it is sort of like Norma Desmond is like the

776
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 1: best role available because at least it's self aware. But

777
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:29,800
Speaker 1: like in most cases, there's a whole subgenre that still

778
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:32,720
Speaker 1: exists in certain ways. There's a great video essay about

779
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 1: it from be kind Rewind that talks about whatever happened

780
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:39,400
Speaker 1: to Baby Jane specifically, but basically it is like a

781
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:43,919
Speaker 1: whole subgenre called hag horror that you know, just capitalizes

782
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 1: on the star power of incredible actresses when they were

783
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:51,360
Speaker 1: younger and you know, allows them to be in movies

784
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:54,879
Speaker 1: with the contingency that they are perpetuating the idea that

785
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:57,840
Speaker 1: being an aging woman is horrific.

786
00:47:58,320 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 2: Right.

787
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:03,800
Speaker 1: It's really interesting because, like we've talked about, like Gloria Swanson,

788
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:07,839
Speaker 1: this is her lived experience. We are seeing, not Norma

789
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 1: Desmond story, but like she, you know, was a silent

790
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:16,400
Speaker 1: film star who never quite broke out as a talking

791
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 1: film actress. Before Sunset Boulevard, she went back on stage.

792
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 1: She was still working. She worked, she did stuff on TV,

793
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:24,840
Speaker 1: she worked on stage. You know, she wasn't rotting in

794
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:27,880
Speaker 1: a house, which I think is pretty fucking insulting. Yeah,

795
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:31,360
Speaker 1: but her career, I think we still see this with

796
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 1: women and fems today. The types of roles she was

797
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:39,880
Speaker 1: offered changed, the types of mediums she was welcomed and changed.

798
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:43,320
Speaker 1: And then you know, Max is played by a silent

799
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 1: film director. It's Buster Keaton is in this movie.

800
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:51,479
Speaker 2: Right, Demill plays himself, and Demill is often credited as

801
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:56,320
Speaker 2: the director who kind of made Gloria Swanson a star.

802
00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:02,400
Speaker 2: So there's all these really interesting parallel between Glorious Swanson

803
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:05,880
Speaker 2: and the character she plays. Again, to our knowledge, Glorious

804
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:11,319
Speaker 2: Swanson wasn't, you know, didn't have a very warped view

805
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:14,320
Speaker 2: of reality and wasn't like living in this kind of delusion.

806
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:16,800
Speaker 1: But no, she was like living in New York acting

807
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:20,239
Speaker 1: on Broadway like she was. Okay, right, But it's still like,

808
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:24,959
Speaker 1: I honestly haven't studied Demil as a person very much.

809
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 1: I know that he was a notorious conservative. I know

810
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:32,280
Speaker 1: that he was, you know, obviously deeply complicit in many

811
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:35,920
Speaker 1: of the sins of early Hollywood, but it is I

812
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:39,479
Speaker 1: think it's really kind of admirable that he was even

813
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:42,239
Speaker 1: willing to be in this movie as himself, kind of

814
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:45,800
Speaker 1: acknowledging the system that he was still complicit within, because

815
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:49,320
Speaker 1: like that de Mill scene was shot on the set

816
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 1: of a huge movie he was directing, Like it was

817
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:56,360
Speaker 1: exaggerated versions of the actual reality, where it's like he

818
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:59,319
Speaker 1: still hadn't even directed, you know, the time, he hadn't

819
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:02,439
Speaker 1: even directed in his is hit yet when this came out,

820
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 1: And you know, as far as Glorious Swanson's career goes, that,

821
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 1: like Sunset Boulevard is a huge success for her, She's

822
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 1: nominated for an Oscar. It's an unbelievable performance. But it's

823
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 1: like the question is at what cost? Like you know,

824
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 1: Cecil b de mill is not asked to make these

825
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 1: huge ego compromises in order to continue working in an

826
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 1: interesting way, And yeah, that scene is like just so

827
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 1: brutal and like the way that he comes off, I

828
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:35,799
Speaker 1: thought like it worked where it's like he clearly has

829
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 1: sympathy for her, but not empathy and not enough to

830
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:41,600
Speaker 1: do anything about it.

831
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:45,759
Speaker 2: Where be direct about like I actually didn't like your script,

832
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 2: and he just sort of like lets her believe what

833
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:51,600
Speaker 2: she wants to believe, and he's too much of a

834
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 2: coward to like be clear about what's gonna happen, and

835
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:59,400
Speaker 2: instead he's like get Gordon Cole on the phone and

836
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:01,120
Speaker 2: tell him just because the reason.

837
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:03,439
Speaker 1: That right, he's like, someone else take care of this.

838
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:06,320
Speaker 1: I don't want to take care of this, right, yes, yes,

839
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:09,359
Speaker 1: But then also like I think he doesn't come off

840
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 1: as a complete monster. And I thought that was an

841
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:14,160
Speaker 1: interesting choice too. I mean, I guess that kind of

842
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:17,840
Speaker 1: makes sense where it's like that's where like it's particularly gross,

843
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 1: where he has sympathy for her, he understands her predicament,

844
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 1: but he doesn't want to deal with it because he

845
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:25,719
Speaker 1: does sort of defend her before she comes in the room,

846
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:28,279
Speaker 1: where they're like, oh, wasn't she a fucking nightmare to

847
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 1: work with? And he was like not really, Like she

848
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:32,720
Speaker 1: was great to work with at the beginning of her career,

849
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:34,839
Speaker 1: she was really smart. And then you know, the more

850
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 1: famous she got, the more difficult she became to work with,

851
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:43,920
Speaker 1: which also plays into stereotypes around actors, especially women, especially

852
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:46,839
Speaker 1: the further back in history you go of, like being

853
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:52,839
Speaker 1: characterized as being difficult could mean just being assertive and not.

854
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:54,840
Speaker 2: Rolling out advocating for yourself.

855
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:57,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And so we don't really know, we don't

856
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:01,239
Speaker 1: know enough about the period between you know, Norma as

857
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:04,000
Speaker 1: a young woman into a woman in her fifties. But

858
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:06,960
Speaker 1: he has that really good line a dozen press agents

859
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 1: working over time can do a terrible thing to the

860
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:13,160
Speaker 1: human spirit, Yes, which is a great line and also

861
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:16,920
Speaker 1: is like it makes set, like who but him would

862
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:20,960
Speaker 1: fully understand what is happening to her, and he does

863
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:24,439
Speaker 1: have the power to do something about it, as does

864
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:28,680
Speaker 1: any highly influential director. You know, does her script suck?

865
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 1: Certainly seems like it like offer her a part that

866
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:34,319
Speaker 1: is not in this you know, it's I feel like,

867
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:39,000
Speaker 1: because Norma's whole world is designed to protect her from

868
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 1: rejection or change, there are all these missed opportunities for

869
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:48,439
Speaker 1: potential compromise, right to get her back out into into

870
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:51,840
Speaker 1: the world. And so it does feel like these paternalistic

871
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:56,279
Speaker 1: men who want to appease her but don't actually want

872
00:52:56,320 --> 00:53:01,480
Speaker 1: to help her in any way, Like she's completely doomed.

873
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:03,320
Speaker 1: Our girl is doing.

874
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:09,360
Speaker 2: And there's so many layers because like they're feeding into

875
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:17,160
Speaker 2: this ego of hers that is almost bound to form

876
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:20,400
Speaker 2: in a scenario like this where you're so doted on

877
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:23,719
Speaker 2: and you have all these adoring fans, and especially when

878
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:25,880
Speaker 2: you get famous super young, like she did. I think, yes,

879
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:29,040
Speaker 2: it's mentioned that she was discovered when she was sixteen,

880
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:32,040
Speaker 2: so you know, she's a very young person when she

881
00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:33,320
Speaker 2: becomes a star.

882
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:37,320
Speaker 1: Just like my theory. By theory holds that you become

883
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:41,600
Speaker 1: frozen in maturity at the moment you become famous. Yeah,

884
00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 1: and so she's still acting like a kid like and

885
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 1: it is like they don't shy away from the fact

886
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:49,279
Speaker 1: that her I mean, it's it's like funny the way

887
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:51,520
Speaker 1: that she It's sad, but it is funny how she

888
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:54,719
Speaker 1: talks to Demil where she's like, all right, I don't

889
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 1: care about budget, you figure that out, and I won't

890
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:01,720
Speaker 1: work more than six hours a day, just like Norma.

891
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:05,280
Speaker 1: Come on, we got it, okay, But like that level

892
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:10,239
Speaker 1: of entitlement, Like I don't know, I kind of like

893
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:14,319
Speaker 1: that the movie doesn't make her tragic in the way

894
00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 1: that it's like and she's not even asking for much

895
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:18,960
Speaker 1: like she is asking for a lot. She's a diva.

896
00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:21,960
Speaker 1: She's not being reasonable. Yeah, she is a diva, but

897
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:26,000
Speaker 1: that doesn't justify the way that she's treated, and it

898
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:28,480
Speaker 1: also doesn't justify the way she treats people like. It's

899
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:33,160
Speaker 1: just extremely messy. I think what I've seen talked about

900
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:36,000
Speaker 1: with Norma a lot over the years, which I do

901
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 1: agree with, but it's like, because it's such a complicated movie,

902
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:43,640
Speaker 1: I don't think that there's any like simple way to

903
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:47,239
Speaker 1: be prescriptive about her. But there are like we've sort

904
00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:49,880
Speaker 1: of been hinting at there is the tropes around older

905
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:55,200
Speaker 1: women are fully present. We see characters like this all

906
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:57,960
Speaker 1: the time, even now. The idea of like this is

907
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:01,560
Speaker 1: a woman who has not accept did that she's aging.

908
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 1: And what I think this movie does well, even though

909
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:08,400
Speaker 1: I think it is way over the top and like

910
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:13,200
Speaker 1: the Norma character is more a symbol of how a

911
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:17,920
Speaker 1: whole generation of actresses were treated and discarded, as opposed

912
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:21,279
Speaker 1: to like an actual experience that happened to anyone. My

913
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:26,560
Speaker 1: favorite quote about this was from a former Silent actor

914
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:29,560
Speaker 1: named May Murray who saw the movie and said, none

915
00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:33,399
Speaker 1: of us floozies. Was that nuts? Just a very old

916
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:37,279
Speaker 1: Hollywood way to say that. But so obviously it's not

917
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:42,240
Speaker 1: even reflective of Glorious Swanson's experience. It's an exaggerated version

918
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:46,120
Speaker 1: of how women are discarded. And I think that what

919
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:50,480
Speaker 1: works about Normous Character is that you get the full context.

920
00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:54,759
Speaker 1: I think with other older women, it's just presented that

921
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:58,040
Speaker 1: this is how older women are, not this is how

922
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:01,600
Speaker 1: the world treats older one right, right.

923
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:04,839
Speaker 2: That's the thing with this movie that I think makes

924
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:10,640
Speaker 2: it so great, which is that a lesser movie would say, yeah,

925
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:15,560
Speaker 2: this is just how older women behave Why doesn't matter

926
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:20,120
Speaker 2: the way that you know, women are conditioned to feel

927
00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:21,880
Speaker 2: about themselves as they age.

928
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:24,560
Speaker 1: What's that? Never heard of it? You know not?

929
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:28,759
Speaker 2: But this movie Okay, so it presents a woman who

930
00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:33,480
Speaker 2: is quote unquote past her prime and who is characterized

931
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 2: as being delusional. She's controlling, she's very conceited and self obsessed.

932
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:44,440
Speaker 2: But there's also this component of, like we said, she

933
00:56:45,640 --> 00:56:49,520
Speaker 2: came out of this like system where like which is

934
00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:55,680
Speaker 2: fundamentally abusive, super abusive, so focused on image, and so

935
00:56:56,320 --> 00:57:01,759
Speaker 2: heavily values youth in a special women it does tend

936
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:05,680
Speaker 2: to chew people up and spit them out, and again,

937
00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:10,319
Speaker 2: especially women as they age. This is clearly what had

938
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:14,799
Speaker 2: happened to Norma. And again, like we mentioned, there's the

939
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:19,160
Speaker 2: component of she became a star when she was super young.

940
00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:21,920
Speaker 2: She like you know, came into all this money. It

941
00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:27,920
Speaker 2: seems like she invested in oil boo and real estate.

942
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 1: Oil boo, which is like, I mean, that's some rich

943
00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:33,840
Speaker 1: lady shit like. And I also think that it is

944
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:40,960
Speaker 1: a good choice that she still has money because it's like, yeah,

945
00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:44,560
Speaker 1: that it's not like she's down on her luck in

946
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:48,040
Speaker 1: the financial sense, But it's like all of the loneliness

947
00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:51,600
Speaker 1: and like isolation in her life is fueled by feeling

948
00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:55,960
Speaker 1: discarded and and it feels like whatever underlying mental health

949
00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:58,840
Speaker 1: issues she may have had when she was very famous

950
00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:03,400
Speaker 1: are so exacerbated by the predicament that she's in. And

951
00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:06,680
Speaker 1: also I think, yeah, like you were saying enabled, however

952
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:09,160
Speaker 1: well intentioned, you know, you could debate all day, but

953
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:13,360
Speaker 1: by people like Max who are like actively preventing her

954
00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:15,880
Speaker 1: from trying to live life a different way because of

955
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:19,960
Speaker 1: how he is enabling her current lifestyle that is killing her.

956
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:25,600
Speaker 1: It's like, I it's upsetting to hear the repeated attempts

957
00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:27,920
Speaker 1: to take her own life and that like this has

958
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:32,880
Speaker 1: happened before, but there are no changes made to her life.

959
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:37,080
Speaker 1: And certainly so it's like Max is a really difficult

960
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:40,040
Speaker 1: character for me because I like he doesn't have her

961
00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:43,920
Speaker 1: best interests at heart, at least in a long term sense.

962
00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:46,480
Speaker 1: Like maybe in the short term it's more comfortable for

963
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:49,680
Speaker 1: her to believe these things, but it's clear that like

964
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:54,720
Speaker 1: I don't know, and it's painful to see Norma seeking

965
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:59,680
Speaker 1: out this validation from people where it's you know, I

966
00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:04,480
Speaker 1: don't believe that she loves Joe. Really, they think that

967
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:09,120
Speaker 1: she has I think that he and maybe I, you know,

968
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:12,200
Speaker 1: feel free to roast be in the common. I don't

969
00:59:12,240 --> 00:59:13,880
Speaker 1: think that she loves him. I think that he is

970
00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:17,960
Speaker 1: someone that comes along when she is extremely lonely, who

971
00:59:18,040 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 1: has a skill that she needs. It's a mutually beneficial

972
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:26,280
Speaker 1: relationship and that like, ultimately, I don't think she kills

973
00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:30,640
Speaker 1: him in anything but like anger and jealousy, which are

974
00:59:30,680 --> 00:59:32,040
Speaker 1: not love. Right.

975
00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:37,280
Speaker 2: Yes, he's one of the first people to reject her

976
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:42,840
Speaker 2: in a way that she actually is able to interpret

977
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:48,000
Speaker 2: it as rejection because she's so surrounded by this like sheltered,

978
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:53,800
Speaker 2: enabled life where you know, he's the first person who

979
00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:56,520
Speaker 2: comes along. And I really like his line towards the

980
00:59:56,600 --> 01:00:00,440
Speaker 2: end where he says, you know, Norma, you're a woman

981
01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:04,320
Speaker 2: of fifty, grow up and there's nothing tragic about being fifty,

982
01:00:05,080 --> 01:00:08,240
Speaker 2: not unless you're trying to be twenty five, which is

983
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:10,680
Speaker 2: what Norma is trying to do.

984
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:14,160
Speaker 1: But I also like that line. It's another amazing line

985
01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:16,760
Speaker 1: that is so loaded because it's coming from a man,

986
01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:20,280
Speaker 1: because it's like he is like on paper in a

987
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:24,760
Speaker 1: perfect world, he's right, but it's like he doesn't I

988
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:29,080
Speaker 1: feel like, even though he understands that the world has

989
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:33,480
Speaker 1: done Norma this injustice and not in a way that

990
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:35,640
Speaker 1: feels underwritten in a way that I think is kind

991
01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:39,280
Speaker 1: of genuine to a lot of people who don't have

992
01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:41,680
Speaker 1: that experience of just being like, well, why don't you

993
01:00:41,720 --> 01:00:44,200
Speaker 1: just snap out of it? And it's like, well, you know,

994
01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:49,040
Speaker 1: it's presenting like, well, what are her options? Certainly what

995
01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:53,480
Speaker 1: she's doing is not working for anyone, especially her, but

996
01:00:53,680 --> 01:00:57,040
Speaker 1: like it feels like the alternative that she's being presented

997
01:00:57,080 --> 01:01:02,920
Speaker 1: with is disappear gracefully, and that is like what women are,

998
01:01:03,600 --> 01:01:06,200
Speaker 1: especially you know, women, the further back you go. And

999
01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:09,280
Speaker 1: it's like she is operating at the highest privileged level.

1000
01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:13,080
Speaker 1: She's a rich white woman, and she's still nonetheless being asked,

1001
01:01:13,200 --> 01:01:16,760
Speaker 1: you know, can't you just gracefully disappear? Like why can't

1002
01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:19,440
Speaker 1: you do that? And I think that this movie, like

1003
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:22,520
Speaker 1: I don't know, I think in this movie, maybe it

1004
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:24,880
Speaker 1: doesn't make an overt suggestion of like what is the

1005
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:28,400
Speaker 1: alternative because I don't think there is an alternative for

1006
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:31,400
Speaker 1: Norma at this time. I mean, if we're being pragmatic,

1007
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:34,680
Speaker 1: the alternative is go to TV, go to the stage.

1008
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:38,720
Speaker 1: But like, I don't know, it's Norma is an ego

1009
01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 1: monster in a way that a lot of actors are

1010
01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:44,360
Speaker 1: ego monsters. I don't think that it's like a you know,

1011
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:47,680
Speaker 1: a gendered gender thing. I think that the way that

1012
01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:50,920
Speaker 1: people with big egos are treated is in a gendered way.

1013
01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:54,000
Speaker 1: You know, for sure, no one's calling a man a diva.

1014
01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:56,200
Speaker 1: They're like, he knows what he wants and he doesn't

1015
01:01:56,200 --> 01:01:58,240
Speaker 1: take shit from anyone, and like he's.

1016
01:01:58,120 --> 01:02:00,440
Speaker 2: Just going method and blah blah blah.

1017
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:03,920
Speaker 1: God. Yeah, but you know when women do the same thing,

1018
01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:06,840
Speaker 1: they're difficult to work with whatever. But she is an

1019
01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:09,840
Speaker 1: ego monster, nonetheless, yes, but yeah, it's like what are

1020
01:02:09,840 --> 01:02:12,720
Speaker 1: her alternatives? And it seems like Joe's like, why don't

1021
01:02:12,760 --> 01:02:15,800
Speaker 1: you just quietly like, you know, can't you just be normal?

1022
01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:18,640
Speaker 1: And you're like, she kind of can't. Like not that

1023
01:02:18,640 --> 01:02:20,800
Speaker 1: that makes it, that justifies any of her actions, but

1024
01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:22,880
Speaker 1: her whole life has been constructed in a way that

1025
01:02:22,920 --> 01:02:24,680
Speaker 1: it's like, what does normal look like?

1026
01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:28,800
Speaker 2: What does normal normal look like?

1027
01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:32,000
Speaker 1: You know, fact, what does normal look like? Garfield?

1028
01:02:32,240 --> 01:02:34,920
Speaker 2: Wow, I just love a cat named normal because I

1029
01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:36,440
Speaker 2: used to love Garfield so much.

1030
01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:42,600
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, he was a really good cat shout out normal. Yes,

1031
01:02:42,720 --> 01:02:43,560
Speaker 1: like she is.

1032
01:02:44,280 --> 01:02:48,600
Speaker 2: An ego monster, but she's a product of this environment

1033
01:02:48,680 --> 01:02:54,560
Speaker 2: that turns people into ego monsters. And Joe, Yes, it's

1034
01:02:54,760 --> 01:02:59,280
Speaker 2: He's right when he says, grow up, you're behaving like

1035
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:02,560
Speaker 2: a child based and there's nothing tragic about being fifty

1036
01:03:02,720 --> 01:03:07,400
Speaker 2: unless you're trying to like desperately cling on to youth,

1037
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:10,720
Speaker 2: which again she is doing because she is a product

1038
01:03:10,720 --> 01:03:15,040
Speaker 2: of this you know, nasty Hollywood machine. Yeah, but he's

1039
01:03:15,080 --> 01:03:18,280
Speaker 2: also complicit in this in the sense that he is

1040
01:03:18,320 --> 01:03:22,800
Speaker 2: a writer actively working in Hollywood, and his just complicit

1041
01:03:22,880 --> 01:03:27,640
Speaker 2: in this system that does value youth and beauty in

1042
01:03:27,920 --> 01:03:30,840
Speaker 2: women and that like choose them up and spits them out.

1043
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:35,080
Speaker 1: So and it like makes sense that he's finally comfortable

1044
01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:37,640
Speaker 1: saying this when he I feel like I've had I mean,

1045
01:03:37,720 --> 01:03:39,600
Speaker 1: obviously not to this extent, but like you know what,

1046
01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:42,760
Speaker 1: like your friend is like I'm leaving La, I'm fucking done.

1047
01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:45,880
Speaker 1: And then and then you just start saying shit, and

1048
01:03:45,920 --> 01:03:48,840
Speaker 1: like this is his his moment for that where it's like,

1049
01:03:49,080 --> 01:03:52,280
Speaker 1: you know, he's done with this industry. He doesn't need

1050
01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:55,640
Speaker 1: to preserve any bridges. He's done, and so he can

1051
01:03:55,680 --> 01:04:00,680
Speaker 1: finally just be like this is fucked, Like I'm your fuck.

1052
01:04:00,800 --> 01:04:04,480
Speaker 1: This is bad. Pops the bubble because he decides he

1053
01:04:04,520 --> 01:04:06,480
Speaker 1: doesn't want to benefit from it. I don't know, I

1054
01:04:06,520 --> 01:04:09,000
Speaker 1: didn't remember, Like it's a small detail, but I was like,

1055
01:04:09,160 --> 01:04:12,240
Speaker 1: he better not take that stuff. He does it, he

1056
01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:14,840
Speaker 1: leaves the stuff. He's just like, fuck it, I'm gonna

1057
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:17,440
Speaker 1: go work at this job in Ohio. And you know,

1058
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:19,800
Speaker 1: at that point in the movie, I wanted that for him.

1059
01:04:20,160 --> 01:04:23,160
Speaker 1: It's it's too bad that he gets killed two minutes later.

1060
01:04:23,480 --> 01:04:26,280
Speaker 2: There's something to be said though, for like, look at

1061
01:04:26,280 --> 01:04:30,480
Speaker 2: this man who is able to accept that he didn't

1062
01:04:30,520 --> 01:04:33,280
Speaker 2: make it in Hollywood, and so he's gonna go back

1063
01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:37,560
Speaker 2: to his you know, humble beginnings and do whatever it

1064
01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:42,320
Speaker 2: takes for him to survive. But he's accepting that the

1065
01:04:42,360 --> 01:04:46,040
Speaker 2: Hollywood thing didn't work out for him, whereas.

1066
01:04:45,640 --> 01:04:48,120
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, but I guess where I would contest

1067
01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:51,080
Speaker 1: that a little bit is like because.

1068
01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:52,920
Speaker 2: He's like half I mean, I think the Betty character

1069
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:54,600
Speaker 2: helps to balance that out.

1070
01:04:55,200 --> 01:04:57,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and also that like Norma has such a wildly

1071
01:04:57,880 --> 01:05:01,680
Speaker 1: different experience of Hollywood. He hasn't even been successful, so

1072
01:05:01,720 --> 01:05:03,440
Speaker 1: it's sort of like, well, Yeah, it's kind of a

1073
01:05:03,520 --> 01:05:06,040
Speaker 1: lot like you can't be doing much worse than you're doing.

1074
01:05:06,160 --> 01:05:10,439
Speaker 1: You're like kind of a prisoner, you know. So it's

1075
01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:12,840
Speaker 1: not like I didn't feel gendered to me that it

1076
01:05:12,880 --> 01:05:14,680
Speaker 1: was easier for him to leave because there was nothing

1077
01:05:14,680 --> 01:05:17,400
Speaker 1: for him there anymore, and then like it seemed like

1078
01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:20,360
Speaker 1: his only way to stay there is to be in

1079
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:24,160
Speaker 1: this horrific I don't even know if you can call

1080
01:05:24,200 --> 01:05:26,720
Speaker 1: it a relationship, this like cycle of abuse that he

1081
01:05:27,400 --> 01:05:30,120
Speaker 1: is a part of, but it is also very much

1082
01:05:30,120 --> 01:05:31,960
Speaker 1: a victim of, and I don't think that that is

1083
01:05:32,320 --> 01:05:34,840
Speaker 1: something to shy away from. I think that again, if

1084
01:05:34,840 --> 01:05:38,400
Speaker 1: we're going back to like movie criticism of the mid

1085
01:05:38,480 --> 01:05:41,160
Speaker 1: twenty tens, which is where we came out of and

1086
01:05:41,200 --> 01:05:45,680
Speaker 1: then we you know, grew up like Norma can't, but

1087
01:05:45,720 --> 01:05:47,800
Speaker 1: that like there is a hero and villain of this story,

1088
01:05:47,840 --> 01:05:51,600
Speaker 1: there's not Like Norma is tremendously abusive and manipulative at times.

1089
01:05:52,080 --> 01:05:55,840
Speaker 1: Joe is like lies and manipulates people as well. Betty's

1090
01:05:55,920 --> 01:05:59,200
Speaker 1: kind of the only person who's chilling and like, give

1091
01:05:59,240 --> 01:06:01,440
Speaker 1: her time too. She's twenty two. She'll probably you know,

1092
01:06:01,600 --> 01:06:04,320
Speaker 1: become a monster if she hangs out in Hollywood long

1093
01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:07,680
Speaker 1: enough's inevitable. But I liked going back to your point

1094
01:06:07,720 --> 01:06:10,680
Speaker 1: about like the writer being complicit in this system too.

1095
01:06:10,760 --> 01:06:12,640
Speaker 1: It felt like this movie also had like a pretty

1096
01:06:12,720 --> 01:06:16,160
Speaker 1: layered approach to that because it's true, but it's also

1097
01:06:16,320 --> 01:06:22,000
Speaker 1: like demonstrated how the way that the system is encourages

1098
01:06:22,080 --> 01:06:24,959
Speaker 1: that where it's suggested and it's like we don't really

1099
01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:30,400
Speaker 1: get a clear idea on like what Joe would be

1100
01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:34,880
Speaker 1: writing in a perfect world, so like is he brilliant?

1101
01:06:35,080 --> 01:06:38,680
Speaker 1: Probably not, but like he's trying to sell this shitty,

1102
01:06:38,720 --> 01:06:41,840
Speaker 1: bullshit idea that almost sounds like someone pitching a Netflix

1103
01:06:41,880 --> 01:06:45,160
Speaker 1: movie right, like they're like, I don't know someone famous,

1104
01:06:45,200 --> 01:06:49,320
Speaker 1: isn't it baseball something? Is this anything? But how it's

1105
01:06:49,400 --> 01:06:53,120
Speaker 1: it sounds like recently suggested that like this is not

1106
01:06:53,280 --> 01:06:54,760
Speaker 1: the kind of work he wants to be doing. He

1107
01:06:54,800 --> 01:07:00,560
Speaker 1: would rather be doing something creative and different, but that's

1108
01:07:00,600 --> 01:07:02,280
Speaker 1: not the sort of thing that's going to allow him

1109
01:07:02,320 --> 01:07:05,840
Speaker 1: to make a living. So that's also like drawn attention

1110
01:07:05,920 --> 01:07:08,880
Speaker 1: to God. Yeah that the line about being like, yeah, yeah,

1111
01:07:09,920 --> 01:07:11,960
Speaker 1: I know you've heard a head of talent, but I

1112
01:07:11,960 --> 01:07:16,320
Speaker 1: want to work this year, like vibe that, I get it,

1113
01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:17,360
Speaker 1: I get it. I get it.

1114
01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:21,320
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, there's that. And then but I also just

1115
01:07:21,840 --> 01:07:26,920
Speaker 2: I mean representation of a woman telling a male artist

1116
01:07:27,120 --> 01:07:30,360
Speaker 2: that his art is bad and try it.

1117
01:07:31,200 --> 01:07:34,440
Speaker 1: Loves it no matter like if they're flirting or not,

1118
01:07:35,240 --> 01:07:37,440
Speaker 1: Like she's just like I cannot tell a lie.

1119
01:07:37,520 --> 01:07:39,320
Speaker 2: At that point, they're not flirting because that's like their

1120
01:07:39,360 --> 01:07:42,200
Speaker 2: first meeting and she's at work and she's just like

1121
01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:46,000
Speaker 2: giving her honest, professional opinion and she's like, oh, yeah,

1122
01:07:46,640 --> 01:07:52,120
Speaker 2: I covered that script and I passed on it because

1123
01:07:52,200 --> 01:07:55,360
Speaker 2: it was trite, and I was like, hell yeah, dude.

1124
01:07:55,400 --> 01:08:01,160
Speaker 2: And then also later Demil calls Norma's script awful, but

1125
01:08:01,360 --> 01:08:05,920
Speaker 2: presumably he read the version that Joe rewrote and like

1126
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:08,920
Speaker 2: punched up and it's apparently still very bad. So I

1127
01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:12,640
Speaker 2: think Joe is a flop. He's not a good writer.

1128
01:08:12,880 --> 01:08:15,520
Speaker 1: See again, I'm gonna come to Joe's defense here as

1129
01:08:15,600 --> 01:08:19,000
Speaker 1: someone who's done punch up work. Some things are unsavable

1130
01:08:19,080 --> 01:08:22,040
Speaker 1: and sometimes fair. And it also sounds like if she's

1131
01:08:22,080 --> 01:08:24,320
Speaker 1: hovering over his shoulder being like, no, you can't take

1132
01:08:24,320 --> 01:08:26,000
Speaker 1: that seat out, it's like, well, how much work did

1133
01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:29,439
Speaker 1: he even really get to do? True? I say Joe

1134
01:08:29,439 --> 01:08:34,320
Speaker 1: innocent in that instance. I do sort of wonder why

1135
01:08:34,400 --> 01:08:39,360
Speaker 1: because there are multiple times in the movie where Joe

1136
01:08:39,439 --> 01:08:41,960
Speaker 1: is like, hey, Betty, like you can have this, I

1137
01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:43,639
Speaker 1: don't really want to do it. I'm like, why doesn't

1138
01:08:43,720 --> 01:08:46,599
Speaker 1: she just do it? He's given her permission multiple times.

1139
01:08:46,600 --> 01:08:48,680
Speaker 1: Why doesn't she just do it? But maybe that's a

1140
01:08:48,680 --> 01:08:51,280
Speaker 1: good I don't know as far as Norma goes to

1141
01:08:51,439 --> 01:08:54,880
Speaker 1: sort of wrap up that discussion, Yes, to really fully

1142
01:08:54,880 --> 01:08:58,320
Speaker 1: explore her, we would have to talk moment to moment

1143
01:08:58,520 --> 01:09:04,080
Speaker 1: how she's behaved. I think that there are many tropes

1144
01:09:04,439 --> 01:09:09,360
Speaker 1: present in her character, undoubtedly. I think that her character

1145
01:09:09,680 --> 01:09:13,240
Speaker 1: uses these tropes to really exaggerate the point it seems

1146
01:09:13,240 --> 01:09:17,360
Speaker 1: like Billy Wilder is trying to make about how Hollywood

1147
01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:21,320
Speaker 1: choose actresses up and spits them out. And I think

1148
01:09:21,360 --> 01:09:25,040
Speaker 1: that in that exaggeration, there are moments that are like

1149
01:09:25,680 --> 01:09:31,040
Speaker 1: feel almost like I felt bad that Gloria Swanson had

1150
01:09:31,040 --> 01:09:33,960
Speaker 1: to act them out because it's suggesting that this could

1151
01:09:34,040 --> 01:09:39,200
Speaker 1: be her own experience when she was a person, and like,

1152
01:09:39,600 --> 01:09:43,040
Speaker 1: it was really interesting reading about her process of becoming

1153
01:09:43,080 --> 01:09:47,280
Speaker 1: involved with this movie because she was a huge star

1154
01:09:47,400 --> 01:09:49,960
Speaker 1: at Paramount and there is like a degree of truth

1155
01:09:50,080 --> 01:09:52,800
Speaker 1: to that like line that Norma says when she goes

1156
01:09:52,800 --> 01:09:55,280
Speaker 1: into the Paramount lot of like, you know, why should

1157
01:09:55,280 --> 01:09:57,439
Speaker 1: I have to check in? I'm the reason this place exists.

1158
01:09:57,439 --> 01:09:59,920
Speaker 1: And Gloria Swanson was such a huge early Paramount star

1159
01:10:00,040 --> 01:10:02,479
Speaker 1: that there is like some tongue in cheekness to that

1160
01:10:02,840 --> 01:10:04,960
Speaker 1: she didn't want to have to audition for this part.

1161
01:10:05,040 --> 01:10:06,679
Speaker 1: She's like, why the funk would I have to audition?

1162
01:10:06,880 --> 01:10:11,200
Speaker 1: That's silly, And George Qcoor, who is like another big

1163
01:10:11,200 --> 01:10:14,800
Speaker 1: old Hollywood director, was like, just do it, like you'll

1164
01:10:14,800 --> 01:10:18,240
Speaker 1: regret not doing it. But she had to make ego

1165
01:10:18,280 --> 01:10:23,240
Speaker 1: compromises in order to play this ego monster, and I

1166
01:10:23,320 --> 01:10:26,559
Speaker 1: just like, that is not the fault of Billy Wilder,

1167
01:10:26,920 --> 01:10:29,400
Speaker 1: but it is just an example of, like, even to

1168
01:10:29,560 --> 01:10:33,679
Speaker 1: make this movie that is hyper critical of Hollywood practices,

1169
01:10:34,200 --> 01:10:36,960
Speaker 1: those practices still had to be in play in order

1170
01:10:36,960 --> 01:10:39,120
Speaker 1: for it to even happen. And there were a lot

1171
01:10:39,200 --> 01:10:42,320
Speaker 1: of silent film star actresses who were like, fuck you,

1172
01:10:42,360 --> 01:10:45,840
Speaker 1: I'm not doing this. Mary Pickford said no, May West

1173
01:10:45,840 --> 01:10:48,040
Speaker 1: said no, I think And you can't fault them at

1174
01:10:48,120 --> 01:10:50,680
Speaker 1: all to be like, well, and I don't think I

1175
01:10:50,720 --> 01:10:53,000
Speaker 1: would be able to do They're like, hey, do you

1176
01:10:53,040 --> 01:10:55,479
Speaker 1: want to play like a podcaster who's like a huge

1177
01:10:55,520 --> 01:10:59,920
Speaker 1: fucking loser. I would be like, I'd rather not. I

1178
01:11:00,080 --> 01:11:03,240
Speaker 1: don't know, I'd rather not. I was like, is there, Yeah,

1179
01:11:03,240 --> 01:11:05,479
Speaker 1: it's not even like hard, No, it's just like, is

1180
01:11:05,479 --> 01:11:08,920
Speaker 1: that really my only option is there? Which it seems

1181
01:11:08,920 --> 01:11:11,240
Speaker 1: like for Glorious wantson to get back into a major movie,

1182
01:11:11,439 --> 01:11:16,320
Speaker 1: this was the option and like that fucking sucks.

1183
01:11:16,000 --> 01:11:19,920
Speaker 2: Yes, but that okay. So this is interesting where the

1184
01:11:19,960 --> 01:11:23,720
Speaker 2: reason that a lot of stars who were considered or

1185
01:11:23,800 --> 01:11:28,160
Speaker 2: offered the role of Norma Desmond, the reason they turned

1186
01:11:28,200 --> 01:11:32,719
Speaker 2: it down informs something which I'll talk about in a second.

1187
01:11:32,720 --> 01:11:36,320
Speaker 2: But so like may West, who portrayed herself as a

1188
01:11:36,320 --> 01:11:42,519
Speaker 2: sex symbol even into her forties fifties beyond, she was

1189
01:11:42,560 --> 01:11:45,600
Speaker 2: offended that she would be asked to play you know

1190
01:11:45,720 --> 01:11:48,479
Speaker 2: a quote unquote Hollywood has been because she's like, I'm

1191
01:11:48,479 --> 01:11:51,200
Speaker 2: still fucking hot, Like that's not the image I want

1192
01:11:51,240 --> 01:11:52,120
Speaker 2: to portray.

1193
01:11:52,200 --> 01:11:54,679
Speaker 1: The May West rejection's the best one. Yeah.

1194
01:11:54,920 --> 01:12:00,519
Speaker 2: Then you've got an actor named Clara Bowes. She was yeah,

1195
01:12:00,640 --> 01:12:05,760
Speaker 2: famous member her Silent Movie era star. She declined the role,

1196
01:12:05,920 --> 01:12:09,240
Speaker 2: saying that she didn't want to engage in the film

1197
01:12:09,280 --> 01:12:12,599
Speaker 2: industry again because of how hard it was for her

1198
01:12:12,720 --> 01:12:16,760
Speaker 2: to transition during like sound films, and I think it

1199
01:12:16,880 --> 01:12:18,599
Speaker 2: just like rung too close to home.

1200
01:12:19,120 --> 01:12:19,599
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1201
01:12:19,760 --> 01:12:23,439
Speaker 2: Norma Shearer also rejected the role due to, like I think,

1202
01:12:23,479 --> 01:12:27,320
Speaker 2: similar reasons. She retired and she just had a distaste

1203
01:12:27,479 --> 01:12:30,400
Speaker 2: for the script. She just didn't feel like the characters

1204
01:12:30,560 --> 01:12:34,600
Speaker 2: someone she wanted to portray. But that brings me to

1205
01:12:35,680 --> 01:12:41,680
Speaker 2: this movie and how it does acknowledge the effect of

1206
01:12:41,920 --> 01:12:46,000
Speaker 2: societal expectations that are placed on women as far as like,

1207
01:12:46,200 --> 01:12:49,760
Speaker 2: you know, you always have to be young forever. If

1208
01:12:49,800 --> 01:12:55,360
Speaker 2: you age, you are rendered irrelevant. There's this strong pressure

1209
01:12:55,439 --> 01:12:58,920
Speaker 2: to stay young and beautiful and all of this stuff,

1210
01:12:58,960 --> 01:13:02,639
Speaker 2: which is this is sidal pressure, but also like very

1211
01:13:02,760 --> 01:13:06,759
Speaker 2: very prevalent in Hollywood, which is so image based. Yes,

1212
01:13:07,479 --> 01:13:12,760
Speaker 2: this movie also again acknowledges what probably led her to

1213
01:13:12,800 --> 01:13:17,880
Speaker 2: become such an egotistical person. Do I think that there

1214
01:13:17,920 --> 01:13:21,440
Speaker 2: could have been a few more explicit lines of dialogue

1215
01:13:21,439 --> 01:13:25,679
Speaker 2: that address this a little bit more explicitly? Maybe maybe

1216
01:13:25,680 --> 01:13:28,760
Speaker 2: they would have been too on the nose, but I

1217
01:13:28,800 --> 01:13:31,280
Speaker 2: feel like there are ways that the script could have

1218
01:13:31,840 --> 01:13:37,479
Speaker 2: addressed and acknowledged those things a little bit more. Sure, thoroughly.

1219
01:13:38,280 --> 01:13:40,840
Speaker 2: But the movie for the most part, does acknowledge all

1220
01:13:40,840 --> 01:13:43,519
Speaker 2: of these things. And even though there are tropes present

1221
01:13:44,439 --> 01:13:46,679
Speaker 2: as far as like, well, yes, of course an older

1222
01:13:46,800 --> 01:13:50,240
Speaker 2: woman is going to be delusional and she's going to

1223
01:13:50,240 --> 01:13:53,880
Speaker 2: be jealous of the younger woman, because there's that part

1224
01:13:53,920 --> 01:13:59,360
Speaker 2: where Norma calls Betty, who becomes Joe's new love interest,

1225
01:13:59,520 --> 01:14:03,280
Speaker 2: and she's like, well, you don't even know what's happening.

1226
01:14:03,400 --> 01:14:07,000
Speaker 2: He's actually with me, and things like that. But these

1227
01:14:07,280 --> 01:14:13,240
Speaker 2: tropes are you know, tropes often come from some grain

1228
01:14:13,680 --> 01:14:17,400
Speaker 2: of something that's true, which we see from the reasons

1229
01:14:17,439 --> 01:14:22,320
Speaker 2: that those other actors rejected that role. So like, it's

1230
01:14:22,320 --> 01:14:25,320
Speaker 2: all very interesting and it's just handled and I think

1231
01:14:25,360 --> 01:14:30,840
Speaker 2: of a more nuanced way than a lesser movie would

1232
01:14:30,840 --> 01:14:31,479
Speaker 2: have done.

1233
01:14:32,200 --> 01:14:35,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, I really really love this movie.

1234
01:14:35,000 --> 01:14:37,719
Speaker 1: I just I also, like, I can't fault any actor

1235
01:14:37,760 --> 01:14:40,599
Speaker 1: for not wanting to play that role, because I mean

1236
01:14:40,680 --> 01:14:44,439
Speaker 1: it's so you know, reflective of what's happening within the movie.

1237
01:14:44,479 --> 01:14:48,880
Speaker 1: Of like, this is Norma's big comeback, and this was

1238
01:14:49,160 --> 01:14:53,920
Speaker 1: Glorious Swanson's quote unquote big comeback into film that yeah,

1239
01:14:54,040 --> 01:14:57,920
Speaker 1: required a level of ego compartmentalization that we don't ask

1240
01:14:58,160 --> 01:15:01,559
Speaker 1: of male actors, is all I was sort of getting at.

1241
01:15:01,560 --> 01:15:05,000
Speaker 1: But it's still, like, I think, one of the best

1242
01:15:06,720 --> 01:15:10,479
Speaker 1: performances I've ever because it's like it's like sad and

1243
01:15:10,520 --> 01:15:14,479
Speaker 1: it's also goofy and scary what she's doing with her eyes.

1244
01:15:14,800 --> 01:15:16,080
Speaker 1: It's still am big.

1245
01:15:16,560 --> 01:15:18,599
Speaker 2: It's the pictures that got small.

1246
01:15:19,320 --> 01:15:22,320
Speaker 1: Oh she's just iconic. I love things were queer, but

1247
01:15:22,360 --> 01:15:25,840
Speaker 1: they were about to get queer. Always true with this performance.

1248
01:15:26,560 --> 01:15:29,680
Speaker 1: She Oh god, there's moments where she goes like she

1249
01:15:29,720 --> 01:15:33,120
Speaker 1: does this little gremlin voice that I love, where she's like,

1250
01:15:33,240 --> 01:15:35,120
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not afraid to die and you're like,

1251
01:15:35,160 --> 01:15:40,320
Speaker 1: oh my god, Hello, she can go big in that way,

1252
01:15:40,400 --> 01:15:43,240
Speaker 1: but also have these moments of like complete devastit. It's

1253
01:15:43,320 --> 01:15:47,639
Speaker 1: just so fucking good. She's so good. But yeah, Norma,

1254
01:15:47,680 --> 01:15:49,400
Speaker 1: I think that what you just said is a great

1255
01:15:49,479 --> 01:15:54,080
Speaker 1: sort of bow on the Norma conversation. Oh thanks, but

1256
01:15:54,160 --> 01:15:57,040
Speaker 1: we've got a Betty. We've got a Betty here, we

1257
01:15:57,120 --> 01:16:01,200
Speaker 1: sure do. We've got miss Betty. I like Betty. I

1258
01:16:01,320 --> 01:16:03,840
Speaker 1: like her. I thought she's got a good head on

1259
01:16:03,880 --> 01:16:06,880
Speaker 1: her shoulders. I like you said before, I like that

1260
01:16:06,920 --> 01:16:10,439
Speaker 1: she is. And again I think it is just an

1261
01:16:10,439 --> 01:16:13,720
Speaker 1: element of because I just think of like people I

1262
01:16:13,760 --> 01:16:17,360
Speaker 1: know and work with who grew up here tend to

1263
01:16:17,400 --> 01:16:22,760
Speaker 1: have a healthier attitude towards the sort of bullshit that

1264
01:16:22,800 --> 01:16:26,479
Speaker 1: takes place, because it's just like you're brought up knowing

1265
01:16:26,560 --> 01:16:30,280
Speaker 1: it's bullshit. Right, It seems like that is sort of

1266
01:16:30,280 --> 01:16:32,600
Speaker 1: where Betty's coming from. Where she's referenced that she's like

1267
01:16:32,840 --> 01:16:37,360
Speaker 1: a third generation Hollywood worker, not a Hollywood star, and

1268
01:16:37,360 --> 01:16:40,360
Speaker 1: then we haven't even talked about her experience as an actor,

1269
01:16:40,360 --> 01:16:44,479
Speaker 1: which I thought was a really really interesting narrative decision

1270
01:16:44,560 --> 01:16:47,280
Speaker 1: to just add that, because it's like in like the

1271
01:16:47,320 --> 01:16:52,320
Speaker 1: space of a scene completely helps you understand where she's

1272
01:16:52,560 --> 01:16:54,960
Speaker 1: coming from and why her attitude, Like it was almost

1273
01:16:54,960 --> 01:17:01,160
Speaker 1: like she was spared this potential norma future, right, right.

1274
01:17:01,200 --> 01:17:03,799
Speaker 2: So her backstory is that, like you said, she comes

1275
01:17:03,880 --> 01:17:08,599
Speaker 2: from a Hollywood family in the sense that her parents

1276
01:17:08,600 --> 01:17:14,479
Speaker 2: and grandparents worked in Hollywood, but were never in those

1277
01:17:14,760 --> 01:17:18,920
Speaker 2: huge roles either as performers or like directors.

1278
01:17:19,160 --> 01:17:22,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, like lighting, costuming dn't work, yeah, stuff like that.

1279
01:17:23,000 --> 01:17:25,640
Speaker 2: So like she's a Hollywood the real she comes from

1280
01:17:25,680 --> 01:17:29,280
Speaker 2: a Hollywood family, but it's not like nepotism necessarily it's

1281
01:17:29,280 --> 01:17:33,280
Speaker 2: not like all that ego is not present in her

1282
01:17:33,479 --> 01:17:36,400
Speaker 2: character and her kind of line of work. Then you

1283
01:17:36,520 --> 01:17:40,120
Speaker 2: learn that she because she came from this, you know,

1284
01:17:40,200 --> 01:17:44,839
Speaker 2: like working class Hollywood family, it would maybe be expected

1285
01:17:44,840 --> 01:17:48,280
Speaker 2: that she would also work and oh, let's try to

1286
01:17:48,280 --> 01:17:50,280
Speaker 2: make her an actor. So her parents had her take

1287
01:17:50,400 --> 01:17:54,040
Speaker 2: like acting classes and all this stuff, and then when

1288
01:17:54,040 --> 01:17:56,920
Speaker 2: she went to do auditions and screen tests and things

1289
01:17:57,000 --> 01:18:01,519
Speaker 2: like that, it's mentioned that they didn't like her nose,

1290
01:18:02,320 --> 01:18:08,320
Speaker 2: so she had cosmetic surgery it seems to quote unquote

1291
01:18:08,360 --> 01:18:11,840
Speaker 2: fix her nose or you know, have surgery performed on it,

1292
01:18:12,560 --> 01:18:16,160
Speaker 2: and then you know, the casting people liked her nose now,

1293
01:18:16,280 --> 01:18:18,280
Speaker 2: but then they didn't like her acting, so she never

1294
01:18:18,320 --> 01:18:21,000
Speaker 2: made it as an actor. And it seems like this

1295
01:18:21,080 --> 01:18:26,400
Speaker 2: is something that she accepted and went to work as

1296
01:18:26,680 --> 01:18:31,519
Speaker 2: a script reader. But as she tells Joe, she's like,

1297
01:18:31,600 --> 01:18:34,320
Speaker 2: I don't want to do this forever. I'd like to

1298
01:18:34,600 --> 01:18:37,040
Speaker 2: advance in my career. And that's one of the main

1299
01:18:37,120 --> 01:18:42,280
Speaker 2: reasons she tries to like strike a professional relationship with him,

1300
01:18:42,280 --> 01:18:45,200
Speaker 2: because he says something like he's like, thanks for your

1301
01:18:45,240 --> 01:18:48,360
Speaker 2: interest in my career, and she's like, no, it's not

1302
01:18:48,600 --> 01:18:51,479
Speaker 2: your career I'm interested in, and it's mine, Like I

1303
01:18:51,560 --> 01:18:53,960
Speaker 2: was hoping to get in on this, make some kind

1304
01:18:53,960 --> 01:18:56,479
Speaker 2: of deal because I don't want to be a reader

1305
01:18:56,600 --> 01:18:58,800
Speaker 2: all my life. It seems like she wants to be

1306
01:18:59,000 --> 01:19:00,479
Speaker 2: a screenwriter.

1307
01:19:00,560 --> 01:19:04,080
Speaker 1: Right, and it actually like is if she's quote unquote

1308
01:19:04,240 --> 01:19:06,439
Speaker 1: just a reader at this time, it makes a lot

1309
01:19:06,439 --> 01:19:08,479
Speaker 1: of sense that she would try to find a writing

1310
01:19:08,520 --> 01:19:11,760
Speaker 1: partner who has at least had some work produced to

1311
01:19:11,800 --> 01:19:14,120
Speaker 1: get her first screen credit and then, you know, like,

1312
01:19:14,200 --> 01:19:17,280
Speaker 1: if she's smart, kind of ditch Joe and start doing

1313
01:19:17,320 --> 01:19:20,480
Speaker 1: her own thing. Right now, what she's doing makes complete

1314
01:19:21,000 --> 01:19:26,200
Speaker 1: logical sense. I love the story about her almost becoming

1315
01:19:26,240 --> 01:19:29,360
Speaker 1: an actor and then having that taken away. But like she,

1316
01:19:29,760 --> 01:19:32,360
Speaker 1: I think because she has a more grounded view of

1317
01:19:32,800 --> 01:19:37,280
Speaker 1: how brutal the industry is, because she's grown up around it.

1318
01:19:37,280 --> 01:19:41,720
Speaker 1: It's not this devastating ego blow. Like she's she's adaptable

1319
01:19:41,800 --> 01:19:46,320
Speaker 1: and that's why she survives and because of And again

1320
01:19:46,360 --> 01:19:48,519
Speaker 1: it's like I think that there would have been a

1321
01:19:48,520 --> 01:19:52,640
Speaker 1: time where I would have watched Norma and Betty and

1322
01:19:52,720 --> 01:19:56,040
Speaker 1: thought that it's like suggested that one is adaptable and

1323
01:19:56,080 --> 01:19:57,920
Speaker 1: one isn't, And like there's a good kind of woman

1324
01:19:57,920 --> 01:19:59,840
Speaker 1: and a bad kind of woman. But you still have

1325
01:20:00,000 --> 01:20:02,640
Speaker 1: all the information you need as to why Norma was

1326
01:20:02,680 --> 01:20:05,400
Speaker 1: not adaptable. She never got an opportunity to be adaptable.

1327
01:20:05,560 --> 01:20:07,479
Speaker 1: She became really famous when she was a kid. It's

1328
01:20:07,479 --> 01:20:10,599
Speaker 1: all she knows. Are there people who become really famous

1329
01:20:10,600 --> 01:20:14,559
Speaker 1: as kids who are adaptable people? Certainly? And like it's

1330
01:20:14,600 --> 01:20:16,760
Speaker 1: always going to be a person to person thing. I

1331
01:20:16,800 --> 01:20:21,879
Speaker 1: think what is generally true is people who become famous

1332
01:20:22,000 --> 01:20:26,200
Speaker 1: very young and then are fairly well adjusted as adults

1333
01:20:26,400 --> 01:20:29,240
Speaker 1: tend to have a good support system around them, which

1334
01:20:29,280 --> 01:20:32,599
Speaker 1: Norma very much does not. It is not so as

1335
01:20:32,800 --> 01:20:35,599
Speaker 1: exaggerated as her fate is. I do feel like you're

1336
01:20:35,640 --> 01:20:38,559
Speaker 1: given all of the information as to why Betty is

1337
01:20:38,800 --> 01:20:42,080
Speaker 1: comparatively well adjusted. I don't think it is a like

1338
01:20:42,360 --> 01:20:48,160
Speaker 1: youth equals good old equals bad situation. Then they add

1339
01:20:48,160 --> 01:20:53,000
Speaker 1: in this love story, which is just like, I don't know.

1340
01:20:53,080 --> 01:20:57,679
Speaker 1: I think that this it undercuts like we've been saying

1341
01:20:57,680 --> 01:21:00,920
Speaker 1: for seven years. Adding a love story is not an

1342
01:21:00,960 --> 01:21:03,400
Speaker 1: inherently bad thing. It's just like, well, what is it

1343
01:21:03,520 --> 01:21:06,240
Speaker 1: adding to the story. I think that like, you don't

1344
01:21:06,280 --> 01:21:10,960
Speaker 1: lose anything in this story if it is like a

1345
01:21:11,040 --> 01:21:18,200
Speaker 1: professional relationship dissolving and not a romantic one developing. Completely agree,

1346
01:21:18,280 --> 01:21:20,240
Speaker 1: And that is like as close as I feel like

1347
01:21:20,760 --> 01:21:24,120
Speaker 1: you have to just a trope, be a trup.

1348
01:21:25,120 --> 01:21:30,160
Speaker 2: I agree because like, the two main female characters in

1349
01:21:30,200 --> 01:21:34,439
Speaker 2: this movie both fall in love with Joe, and I'm like,

1350
01:21:34,600 --> 01:21:39,479
Speaker 2: first of all, why although I understand why Norma and

1351
01:21:39,520 --> 01:21:42,120
Speaker 2: we already talked about this, whereas like, does she actually

1352
01:21:42,280 --> 01:21:43,519
Speaker 2: love him or.

1353
01:21:43,439 --> 01:21:46,360
Speaker 1: He is useful? You know what's going on there? Exactly?

1354
01:21:46,439 --> 01:21:51,960
Speaker 2: Like she probably you know, thinks she loves him, but

1355
01:21:52,280 --> 01:21:55,840
Speaker 2: I'm sure she has a pretty warped perception of what

1356
01:21:56,080 --> 01:21:58,720
Speaker 2: romantic love, like healthy romantic love is.

1357
01:21:59,120 --> 01:22:02,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, so she kinda like she LOOKI had no problem

1358
01:22:02,360 --> 01:22:06,320
Speaker 1: killing him. He that is to be what indicates that,

1359
01:22:06,760 --> 01:22:11,439
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, obviously taking into account the mental

1360
01:22:11,479 --> 01:22:14,920
Speaker 1: health cliff that she is falling off of the entire movie,

1361
01:22:15,120 --> 01:22:17,600
Speaker 1: I think that that it like demonstrates that this was

1362
01:22:17,680 --> 01:22:20,920
Speaker 1: not love. It was like, I want someone around me

1363
01:22:20,960 --> 01:22:24,559
Speaker 1: who will help preserve this reality that I live in,

1364
01:22:24,760 --> 01:22:27,160
Speaker 1: and once he doesn't do that, she kills him. Exactly.

1365
01:22:27,200 --> 01:22:32,679
Speaker 2: That's not yeah, it's that it's she's deeply lonely, it seems,

1366
01:22:32,920 --> 01:22:36,759
Speaker 2: and he's a young good looking guy who comes.

1367
01:22:36,560 --> 01:22:39,240
Speaker 1: Along and has also William Holten like he I mean

1368
01:22:39,560 --> 01:22:40,160
Speaker 1: he's hot.

1369
01:22:41,000 --> 01:22:46,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah, it stands to reason why she would

1370
01:22:46,760 --> 01:22:51,200
Speaker 2: be drawn to him. Yeah, But why Betty is drawn

1371
01:22:51,280 --> 01:22:55,240
Speaker 2: to Joe I don't quite get in a romantic way.

1372
01:22:55,280 --> 01:22:58,360
Speaker 2: I can understand why she's like, oh, like, this is

1373
01:22:58,400 --> 01:23:02,680
Speaker 2: someone who can potentially help me in my career, and

1374
01:23:02,720 --> 01:23:05,679
Speaker 2: she's not going about it in any sort of manipulative way,

1375
01:23:05,760 --> 01:23:09,519
Speaker 2: like this is how just networking happens in Hollywood, where

1376
01:23:09,520 --> 01:23:12,120
Speaker 2: you're just like, oh, this is someone.

1377
01:23:12,320 --> 01:23:14,840
Speaker 1: No, And that's like she's not pretending that she's doing

1378
01:23:14,880 --> 01:23:17,519
Speaker 1: something she isn't. She's very honest about right. I mean

1379
01:23:17,600 --> 01:23:19,439
Speaker 1: in the same way where it's like it would be

1380
01:23:19,560 --> 01:23:22,920
Speaker 1: very easy for her to bullshit him and be like, oh, yeah,

1381
01:23:22,960 --> 01:23:25,240
Speaker 1: I'm interested in your career, but she's honest about it.

1382
01:23:25,240 --> 01:23:27,280
Speaker 1: She's like, no, this is like a mutually beneficial thing.

1383
01:23:27,600 --> 01:23:31,160
Speaker 1: And they're collaborating in a way that felt like progressive

1384
01:23:31,200 --> 01:23:34,679
Speaker 1: of like you don't see women professionals acting that way

1385
01:23:34,920 --> 01:23:37,840
Speaker 1: in movies of this time very much, and so like

1386
01:23:38,400 --> 01:23:41,519
Speaker 1: it's cool, And then I don't know, Yeah, I guess

1387
01:23:41,520 --> 01:23:43,360
Speaker 1: it's like the only thing I can chalk it up

1388
01:23:43,360 --> 01:23:47,680
Speaker 1: to is like being twenty two, like I you know,

1389
01:23:47,800 --> 01:23:51,400
Speaker 1: certainly like in speaking for personal experience, not out of

1390
01:23:51,400 --> 01:23:54,920
Speaker 1: the realm of possibility that a twenty two year old

1391
01:23:55,000 --> 01:23:58,280
Speaker 1: can become infatuated with someone just because they're like older

1392
01:23:58,320 --> 01:24:00,120
Speaker 1: and kind of doing something they want to do and

1393
01:24:00,160 --> 01:24:05,600
Speaker 1: are nearby. But I don't think it serves the story.

1394
01:24:05,760 --> 01:24:07,439
Speaker 1: I don't think it serves her story. I think it

1395
01:24:07,479 --> 01:24:10,880
Speaker 1: serves his true in a kind of male centric writer

1396
01:24:11,000 --> 01:24:12,960
Speaker 1: way where it's like, oh, well, he has to make

1397
01:24:13,000 --> 01:24:15,920
Speaker 1: the choice between two women, and it has to be

1398
01:24:15,960 --> 01:24:18,760
Speaker 1: a romantic choice, where it doesn't. I think that this

1399
01:24:19,479 --> 01:24:24,040
Speaker 1: the choice that he's making is ultimately a professional choice anyways,

1400
01:24:24,320 --> 01:24:28,559
Speaker 1: because he's only with Norma for his career, and like

1401
01:24:28,720 --> 01:24:31,360
Speaker 1: Betty is offering him a different version of that career,

1402
01:24:31,439 --> 01:24:34,439
Speaker 1: I think the choice is still like adding the romantic

1403
01:24:34,439 --> 01:24:38,000
Speaker 1: element is just like not necessary. I mean, it didn't

1404
01:24:38,040 --> 01:24:41,800
Speaker 1: take up so much of the plot that it derailed

1405
01:24:41,840 --> 01:24:45,479
Speaker 1: the movie. For me. It just felt like thrown in suddenly,

1406
01:24:45,520 --> 01:24:47,320
Speaker 1: and I know that they were like flirting and vibing

1407
01:24:47,360 --> 01:24:50,200
Speaker 1: the whole movie. I wouldn't have minded if it was

1408
01:24:50,280 --> 01:24:52,280
Speaker 1: just kind of left there where it's like they have

1409
01:24:52,439 --> 01:24:55,800
Speaker 1: this like horny. I don't know. I just hope she

1410
01:24:55,840 --> 01:24:58,240
Speaker 1: didn't go to Arizona. And I also kind of felt

1411
01:24:58,280 --> 01:25:00,519
Speaker 1: bad for her boyfriend. I was like, that was yeah.

1412
01:25:00,560 --> 01:25:02,479
Speaker 1: He was so nice to Joe. He's like, yeah, you

1413
01:25:02,479 --> 01:25:04,960
Speaker 1: can live at my house. I'll do whatever. You're my bud.

1414
01:25:05,080 --> 01:25:08,479
Speaker 1: And then he's like, all right, time to hit on

1415
01:25:08,520 --> 01:25:13,439
Speaker 1: your girlfriend. You're like, come on, men get better at

1416
01:25:13,479 --> 01:25:16,479
Speaker 1: being friends. Anyways. Yeah, I think that the romantic element

1417
01:25:16,600 --> 01:25:20,559
Speaker 1: like did the least for me of any relationship in

1418
01:25:20,600 --> 01:25:21,880
Speaker 1: the movie. Yeah.

1419
01:25:21,960 --> 01:25:29,480
Speaker 2: I mean Hollywood has been wedging in hetero romances for decades.

1420
01:25:29,960 --> 01:25:33,360
Speaker 2: I know we see it here and it still happens

1421
01:25:33,520 --> 01:25:34,240
Speaker 2: to this day.

1422
01:25:34,560 --> 01:25:36,760
Speaker 1: I wonder if that was like an original part because

1423
01:25:37,240 --> 01:25:43,400
Speaker 1: Billy Wilder's so funny and interesting, and I just I

1424
01:25:43,479 --> 01:25:47,479
Speaker 1: really admire him, and I know that probably there's something horrible.

1425
01:25:47,479 --> 01:25:51,760
Speaker 1: I don't know about I really admired me, but I

1426
01:25:51,800 --> 01:25:54,479
Speaker 1: really love him and I like hearing about just like

1427
01:25:54,840 --> 01:25:57,799
Speaker 1: he was just a little rascal, where like he would

1428
01:25:57,840 --> 01:26:01,439
Speaker 1: submit the pages for this script to get approved a

1429
01:26:01,479 --> 01:26:03,760
Speaker 1: couple of pages at a time. You just sort of

1430
01:26:03,840 --> 01:26:06,320
Speaker 1: trick people. And then he said he was adapting this

1431
01:26:06,479 --> 01:26:09,720
Speaker 1: from a text called A Can of Beans, and they

1432
01:26:09,720 --> 01:26:12,720
Speaker 1: were like, okay, like he'd led people to believe that.

1433
01:26:12,760 --> 01:26:14,800
Speaker 1: He's like, oh, yeah, it's based on this book I

1434
01:26:14,840 --> 01:26:17,599
Speaker 1: read called A Can of Beans, which is so funny.

1435
01:26:17,720 --> 01:26:20,200
Speaker 1: You're just like, wow, you really can just don't ask

1436
01:26:20,200 --> 01:26:21,720
Speaker 1: people who we've here to read a book if you

1437
01:26:21,800 --> 01:26:23,960
Speaker 1: just tell them the book exists. They're like, yeah, totally

1438
01:26:24,240 --> 01:26:28,479
Speaker 1: a can of Beans. I heard about that. I just

1439
01:26:28,520 --> 01:26:32,840
Speaker 1: thought that mus really funny. Yeah, do you have any

1440
01:26:32,960 --> 01:26:34,479
Speaker 1: they asked you what to touch on for this movie?

1441
01:26:35,560 --> 01:26:37,000
Speaker 1: Not really.

1442
01:26:37,680 --> 01:26:45,000
Speaker 2: I just Norma engages in like as she's I guess

1443
01:26:45,160 --> 01:26:49,400
Speaker 2: seducing Joe or like what however you want to define

1444
01:26:49,400 --> 01:26:54,600
Speaker 2: that or what predatory? Yes, she is engaging in predatory

1445
01:26:54,800 --> 01:26:59,400
Speaker 2: behavior because there's that like line of voiceover narration from

1446
01:26:59,479 --> 01:27:02,760
Speaker 2: Joe where you know she would be showing him one

1447
01:27:02,760 --> 01:27:08,479
Speaker 2: of her silent films and he says something like you

1448
01:27:08,520 --> 01:27:14,400
Speaker 2: know sometimes she'd clutch my arm forgetting she was my employer. Yeah,

1449
01:27:14,400 --> 01:27:19,439
Speaker 2: and then you know that escalates, which I feel like

1450
01:27:19,600 --> 01:27:24,759
Speaker 2: you could argue is leaning into a trope about older

1451
01:27:24,800 --> 01:27:30,200
Speaker 2: women that sure they are inherently predatory because no one

1452
01:27:30,280 --> 01:27:35,479
Speaker 2: sees them as romantically viable people. Anymore, so of course

1453
01:27:35,520 --> 01:27:40,400
Speaker 2: they're going to engage in, you know, sexually predatory behavior.

1454
01:27:40,880 --> 01:27:44,439
Speaker 1: You're like, now, listen, I don't know how to what

1455
01:27:44,520 --> 01:27:46,880
Speaker 1: exactly to make of it, but I think that it

1456
01:27:47,000 --> 01:27:49,960
Speaker 1: is I like, I am inclined to agree with you,

1457
01:27:50,080 --> 01:27:53,799
Speaker 1: and also like, yeah, like that older women will prey

1458
01:27:54,240 --> 01:27:56,880
Speaker 1: on younger women and that's like one of the few

1459
01:27:57,880 --> 01:28:00,040
Speaker 1: kinds of older women that you see, or just like

1460
01:28:00,080 --> 01:28:02,519
Speaker 1: an older woman who is single, there has to be

1461
01:28:02,600 --> 01:28:06,760
Speaker 1: this air of inherently like she's desperate, right, and it

1462
01:28:06,800 --> 01:28:09,040
Speaker 1: can't be like, I don't know, like you could even

1463
01:28:09,040 --> 01:28:11,680
Speaker 1: be an older woman and be lonely and have it

1464
01:28:11,800 --> 01:28:15,280
Speaker 1: not translate to that behavior. But I mean, I guess

1465
01:28:15,280 --> 01:28:18,400
Speaker 1: the only thing and I'm obviously not trying to justify

1466
01:28:18,439 --> 01:28:21,080
Speaker 1: the behavior. I think to contextualize the behavior. I feel

1467
01:28:21,120 --> 01:28:25,760
Speaker 1: like that behavior is somewhat in line with Norma's entitlement

1468
01:28:26,240 --> 01:28:30,120
Speaker 1: right to how she treats people. So it didn't feel

1469
01:28:30,160 --> 01:28:32,880
Speaker 1: like out of step with the character. But then that

1470
01:28:32,920 --> 01:28:37,839
Speaker 1: speaks to like, well, who is the character. It's Norma Desmond.

1471
01:28:38,240 --> 01:28:42,240
Speaker 1: She's a menace, but also she's wounded and she has

1472
01:28:42,280 --> 01:28:49,679
Speaker 1: a product of her environment hurt people, hurt people, Damn, damn. Wow,

1473
01:28:49,920 --> 01:28:52,800
Speaker 1: someone tell Billy Wilder that. I think that's all I

1474
01:28:52,800 --> 01:28:55,320
Speaker 1: have to I just I love this movie. I love

1475
01:28:55,520 --> 01:29:00,440
Speaker 1: how challenging it still is, and I love how it

1476
01:29:00,439 --> 01:29:03,799
Speaker 1: interacts directly, not even like just with like the history

1477
01:29:03,920 --> 01:29:07,679
Speaker 1: of Hollywood up until this point in a really brilliant

1478
01:29:07,760 --> 01:29:10,960
Speaker 1: and smart way. Also Edith Head costumes just shouting that out.

1479
01:29:11,439 --> 01:29:14,559
Speaker 1: Oh that's that's always a good detail. But does it

1480
01:29:14,600 --> 01:29:18,479
Speaker 1: pass the Bechtels test? Wow, like low Kia does. Like,

1481
01:29:18,560 --> 01:29:20,760
Speaker 1: I think I'm giving it the edge. I think you

1482
01:29:20,800 --> 01:29:25,280
Speaker 1: could make the argument that you know, the grand context

1483
01:29:25,800 --> 01:29:30,479
Speaker 1: is Joe. But there is a brief phone conversation there's

1484
01:29:30,960 --> 01:29:34,040
Speaker 1: it passes like once kind of back to back with

1485
01:29:34,120 --> 01:29:36,439
Speaker 1: like Betty and her friend who we do get a name? Oh,

1486
01:29:36,520 --> 01:29:38,120
Speaker 1: we learn her name at some point.

1487
01:29:38,280 --> 01:29:41,880
Speaker 2: Her roommate right, who like drives her to Norma's house.

1488
01:29:42,360 --> 01:29:46,360
Speaker 1: Yes, she is weirdly given a name in the car

1489
01:29:47,120 --> 01:29:49,920
Speaker 1: when she's driving her. Either way, we do get her name.

1490
01:29:50,880 --> 01:29:54,240
Speaker 1: We could argue she's sort of like someone's on the phone.

1491
01:29:54,360 --> 01:29:57,559
Speaker 1: That's important because it's Norma. Yeah. And then it also

1492
01:29:57,680 --> 01:29:59,720
Speaker 1: there's like two lines of dialogue at the beginning of

1493
01:29:59,720 --> 01:30:02,800
Speaker 1: that phone call. The pass between Norma and Betty before

1494
01:30:02,920 --> 01:30:04,160
Speaker 1: Joe inevitably comes.

1495
01:30:04,040 --> 01:30:10,960
Speaker 2: Up right, So it's a it's a loose, soft pass.

1496
01:30:11,240 --> 01:30:13,800
Speaker 1: I'm gonna give it, but only because I just like

1497
01:30:13,960 --> 01:30:15,760
Speaker 1: this movie.

1498
01:30:16,320 --> 01:30:22,320
Speaker 2: But it does demonstrate how little women interact in the movie.

1499
01:30:22,479 --> 01:30:26,000
Speaker 2: But that's not what this movie is about. If Norma

1500
01:30:26,160 --> 01:30:31,080
Speaker 2: had more female friends, yeah, maybe she wouldn't be in.

1501
01:30:31,080 --> 01:30:33,800
Speaker 1: This I think she'd be a better shape. I think

1502
01:30:33,920 --> 01:30:35,160
Speaker 1: her life would be in better shape.

1503
01:30:35,240 --> 01:30:40,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, But society, you know, conditions women to, as we've

1504
01:30:40,560 --> 01:30:43,639
Speaker 2: talked about many times, be in competition with each other

1505
01:30:43,720 --> 01:30:47,880
Speaker 2: and not have you know, support and camaraderie. So Norma

1506
01:30:47,920 --> 01:30:51,400
Speaker 2: probably was just like although I think there are those

1507
01:30:51,520 --> 01:30:55,200
Speaker 2: scenes where she like invites other Silent Film era stars,

1508
01:30:55,240 --> 01:30:58,759
Speaker 2: including Buster Keaton playing himself, and a few other people

1509
01:30:58,800 --> 01:31:02,120
Speaker 2: that I didn't recognize who they were, but they were

1510
01:31:02,120 --> 01:31:04,840
Speaker 2: real Silent film stars, yes, yes, and a couple of

1511
01:31:04,840 --> 01:31:08,000
Speaker 2: them are women. So she does seem to have some

1512
01:31:08,800 --> 01:31:11,560
Speaker 2: friends who she plays bridge.

1513
01:31:11,280 --> 01:31:13,360
Speaker 1: With, so it doesn't seem like, say, Tice. I think

1514
01:31:13,360 --> 01:31:15,519
Speaker 1: that that's like part of what makes that seem sad.

1515
01:31:15,600 --> 01:31:18,280
Speaker 1: It's like they're all together, but they're all kind of

1516
01:31:18,360 --> 01:31:22,719
Speaker 1: like again, makes me totally understand why silent film stars

1517
01:31:22,720 --> 01:31:25,559
Speaker 1: would be like fuck you, Billy Wilder, because it does

1518
01:31:25,600 --> 01:31:28,880
Speaker 1: sort of present the entire silent film actor generation is

1519
01:31:28,960 --> 01:31:32,200
Speaker 1: kind of like checked out and zongked and just like

1520
01:31:32,360 --> 01:31:36,080
Speaker 1: drinking shuffling their thumbs around, you know. And I also

1521
01:31:36,160 --> 01:31:38,439
Speaker 1: understand why it's like, oh, well, that's a fun part

1522
01:31:38,439 --> 01:31:41,439
Speaker 1: for Buster Keaton to take because he survived that era,

1523
01:31:41,640 --> 01:31:44,200
Speaker 1: so it's like, well, you know, he's fine. So again

1524
01:31:44,320 --> 01:31:48,280
Speaker 1: I get why it's a challenging, annoying thing.

1525
01:31:48,880 --> 01:31:52,800
Speaker 2: Yes, in any case, our nipple scale.

1526
01:31:52,439 --> 01:31:55,120
Speaker 1: Our nipple scale, no one talks about that.

1527
01:31:55,800 --> 01:31:59,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, how come the nipple scale isn't the most famous

1528
01:32:00,040 --> 01:32:02,400
Speaker 2: media metric of all time, which of course is our

1529
01:32:03,200 --> 01:32:08,759
Speaker 2: scale where we rate movies zero two five nipples based

1530
01:32:08,800 --> 01:32:14,799
Speaker 2: on examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens, keeping

1531
01:32:14,840 --> 01:32:20,960
Speaker 2: in mind that this is a movie exclusively about white

1532
01:32:21,000 --> 01:32:27,479
Speaker 2: people and this white woman and her white privilege, which

1533
01:32:27,640 --> 01:32:32,040
Speaker 2: is in step with Hollywood at the time. Yes, there

1534
01:32:32,120 --> 01:32:34,800
Speaker 2: was very, very very little space for anyone who was

1535
01:32:34,880 --> 01:32:39,720
Speaker 2: not white to achieve any kind of stardom in Hollywood

1536
01:32:39,840 --> 01:32:44,280
Speaker 2: in this era. But the fact remains that this is

1537
01:32:44,320 --> 01:32:49,759
Speaker 2: an entirely white movie about this very privileged white woman.

1538
01:32:50,680 --> 01:32:56,760
Speaker 2: In any case, the movie presents this very nuanced examination

1539
01:32:57,120 --> 01:33:02,679
Speaker 2: of what an industry like Hollywood Wood does two people,

1540
01:33:02,880 --> 01:33:08,840
Speaker 2: and particularly two women who are getting older, and it

1541
01:33:08,880 --> 01:33:15,320
Speaker 2: acknowledges the various context that kind of creates this kind

1542
01:33:15,320 --> 01:33:21,800
Speaker 2: of ego maniac character in Norma. And again, I do

1543
01:33:21,880 --> 01:33:25,480
Speaker 2: think there could have been maybe a few more moments

1544
01:33:25,479 --> 01:33:33,040
Speaker 2: of more explicit examinations of that. The movie presents it

1545
01:33:33,200 --> 01:33:37,920
Speaker 2: visually without being too explicit about it. But again, you know,

1546
01:33:37,960 --> 01:33:40,120
Speaker 2: there's always the like, you know, you don't want your

1547
01:33:40,160 --> 01:33:43,800
Speaker 2: dialogue to be too on the nose and too preachy.

1548
01:33:43,920 --> 01:33:46,000
Speaker 1: Right, And I think that also like part of the

1549
01:33:46,040 --> 01:33:49,160
Speaker 1: reason it may have been more obvious to audiences at

1550
01:33:49,200 --> 01:33:52,599
Speaker 1: the time as well. Sure, right, yeah, because this movie

1551
01:33:52,680 --> 01:33:55,320
Speaker 1: is all as shit, it is very quite old.

1552
01:33:55,920 --> 01:33:59,360
Speaker 2: But even so, the movie you know, presents these things.

1553
01:33:59,439 --> 01:34:04,040
Speaker 2: And whether or not it how much judgment it is

1554
01:34:04,120 --> 01:34:10,000
Speaker 2: passing on Norma is not super clear to me.

1555
01:34:11,920 --> 01:34:14,520
Speaker 1: That also is still like kind of eye of the beholdery,

1556
01:34:14,880 --> 01:34:16,360
Speaker 1: like I don't know.

1557
01:34:17,120 --> 01:34:21,360
Speaker 2: Right, because it's like she doesn't come up is very

1558
01:34:21,479 --> 01:34:24,439
Speaker 2: you know, sympathetic or empathetic by the end on account

1559
01:34:24,439 --> 01:34:29,560
Speaker 2: of her murdering someone and then being like completely dissociating

1560
01:34:30,439 --> 01:34:30,960
Speaker 2: about it.

1561
01:34:31,040 --> 01:34:35,720
Speaker 1: But also she's so iconic. I know so, but it's

1562
01:34:35,760 --> 01:34:38,439
Speaker 1: also not like a I don't know, I think like

1563
01:34:38,520 --> 01:34:41,640
Speaker 1: a trope. I'm getting burn dataup right now in contemporary

1564
01:34:41,640 --> 01:34:44,080
Speaker 1: movies is like just a kind of like good for

1565
01:34:44,160 --> 01:34:46,720
Speaker 1: her ending to a movie of like and then she

1566
01:34:46,960 --> 01:34:50,240
Speaker 1: killed him, good for her, and that is well, we'll

1567
01:34:50,240 --> 01:34:52,400
Speaker 1: cover it eventually, but that was like the end of

1568
01:34:52,439 --> 01:34:54,320
Speaker 1: poor things for me, whereas like it's another you know,

1569
01:34:54,880 --> 01:34:57,840
Speaker 1: good for her movie that I think, like whatever whatever,

1570
01:34:57,880 --> 01:35:00,320
Speaker 1: different discussion, but like, yes, whether you're like or not,

1571
01:35:00,800 --> 01:35:02,880
Speaker 1: it's not good for her at the end of this movie.

1572
01:35:03,000 --> 01:35:04,280
Speaker 1: It's actually quite bad for her.

1573
01:35:04,400 --> 01:35:07,320
Speaker 2: It is not great for her. But yeah, yeah, I

1574
01:35:07,360 --> 01:35:10,000
Speaker 2: don't know. I wish there was just and maybe this

1575
01:35:10,120 --> 01:35:13,240
Speaker 2: is just like you know, us examining the movie in

1576
01:35:13,439 --> 01:35:15,840
Speaker 2: twenty twenty four, a movie.

1577
01:35:15,600 --> 01:35:19,240
Speaker 1: From nine seventy five years later, Oh my goodness, yikes.

1578
01:35:19,400 --> 01:35:22,639
Speaker 2: But I think if this movie not that it needs

1579
01:35:22,680 --> 01:35:26,160
Speaker 2: to be remade at all, but if there was a more.

1580
01:35:26,080 --> 01:35:30,680
Speaker 1: Modern future adaptations, there's like ben Broadway adaptations. I think

1581
01:35:30,720 --> 01:35:33,200
Speaker 1: Glenn Close wanted Tony for playing Norman Desmond, which I

1582
01:35:33,280 --> 01:35:36,519
Speaker 1: wish to god, I could see. Yeah.

1583
01:35:36,560 --> 01:35:40,400
Speaker 2: Anyways, if there was a more modern retelling of this

1584
01:35:40,479 --> 01:35:43,240
Speaker 2: story or a similar story, I think that it would

1585
01:35:43,320 --> 01:35:47,920
Speaker 2: be more explicit about examining like gender bias and all

1586
01:35:47,960 --> 01:35:51,160
Speaker 2: these things that the movie isn't super explicit about.

1587
01:35:51,360 --> 01:35:53,920
Speaker 1: But it's like also, I think, like fundamentally hard to

1588
01:35:54,120 --> 01:35:58,200
Speaker 1: extract this movie from this time because of how even

1589
01:35:58,240 --> 01:36:02,639
Speaker 1: though it's like you can up in history the things

1590
01:36:02,680 --> 01:36:05,240
Speaker 1: we're talking about where it's like, well, what there's the

1591
01:36:05,640 --> 01:36:08,519
Speaker 1: you know, silent film stars. You know, someone who is

1592
01:36:08,520 --> 01:36:11,599
Speaker 1: famous thirty years ago, you'd be like, oh, easy one

1593
01:36:11,680 --> 01:36:14,160
Speaker 1: to one is like a ninety sitcom actor that is

1594
01:36:14,200 --> 01:36:16,439
Speaker 1: considered washed up now and trying to adapt with the times.

1595
01:36:16,439 --> 01:36:19,360
Speaker 1: But it's also so specific to like, I don't know,

1596
01:36:19,400 --> 01:36:21,040
Speaker 1: I think that that's why they're so like there was

1597
01:36:21,080 --> 01:36:24,599
Speaker 1: just an attempt to comment on this in Babylon last year,

1598
01:36:24,680 --> 01:36:27,439
Speaker 1: where like the jump from silent pictures to talk like

1599
01:36:27,479 --> 01:36:31,120
Speaker 1: it's just so metaphorically works so well.

1600
01:36:31,760 --> 01:36:35,559
Speaker 2: Right, And it just reminds me that we still need

1601
01:36:35,600 --> 01:36:38,080
Speaker 2: to cover Singing in the Rain because that is also

1602
01:36:38,120 --> 01:36:41,760
Speaker 2: a movie about the transition from silent era movies to

1603
01:36:42,080 --> 01:36:46,639
Speaker 2: talkies and how a lot of actors struggle to make

1604
01:36:46,680 --> 01:36:50,920
Speaker 2: that transition and are discarded along the way. Anyway, Sorry,

1605
01:36:50,920 --> 01:36:52,599
Speaker 2: really quick, So Sunset Flo.

1606
01:36:52,840 --> 01:36:54,880
Speaker 1: I did know this because I was recently I don't

1607
01:36:54,880 --> 01:36:58,200
Speaker 1: know why, like bi annually I have to like watch

1608
01:36:58,280 --> 01:37:01,240
Speaker 1: every video that exists of Glenn Close. I just love

1609
01:37:01,320 --> 01:37:04,760
Speaker 1: glennon Close. I mean, and you're right to do that.

1610
01:37:05,479 --> 01:37:08,080
Speaker 1: Over the holiday break, I was just like, the time

1611
01:37:08,120 --> 01:37:10,040
Speaker 1: has come, I need to once again watch five hundred

1612
01:37:10,120 --> 01:37:12,280
Speaker 1: video essays about Glenn Close. So I knew that she

1613
01:37:12,720 --> 01:37:16,240
Speaker 1: had played Norma in an Andrew Lloyd Weber musical adaptation

1614
01:37:16,320 --> 01:37:19,280
Speaker 1: from the early nineties Whoa, and then so she played

1615
01:37:19,320 --> 01:37:20,960
Speaker 1: the part in ninety three and ninety four, and then

1616
01:37:21,000 --> 01:37:24,400
Speaker 1: again in twenty sixteen seventeen Iconic. But do you know

1617
01:37:24,439 --> 01:37:28,640
Speaker 1: who's currently playing Norma Desmond on the West End is

1618
01:37:29,040 --> 01:37:33,840
Speaker 1: Nicole Scherzinger of the Pussycat Dolls. And I just think that,

1619
01:37:34,000 --> 01:37:39,280
Speaker 1: who oh, I would go see that. I kind of

1620
01:37:39,320 --> 01:37:43,120
Speaker 1: baffling to me. But also, yeah, I'm in, I'm in.

1621
01:37:43,360 --> 01:37:46,080
Speaker 1: I want to I want to see Pussycat Dolls Boulevard

1622
01:37:46,280 --> 01:37:46,680
Speaker 1: bring in.

1623
01:37:47,000 --> 01:37:50,440
Speaker 2: Loosen up my buttons, Baby.

1624
01:37:50,800 --> 01:37:51,919
Speaker 1: Loosen up my buttons.

1625
01:37:52,160 --> 01:37:59,000
Speaker 2: Joe Gillis, Yes, well I will finally say what my

1626
01:37:59,080 --> 01:38:05,280
Speaker 2: nipple rating? Oh yeah, after so much preamble, hmm, I

1627
01:38:05,360 --> 01:38:11,120
Speaker 2: want to give it three point five. Okay, it's a

1628
01:38:11,240 --> 01:38:16,759
Speaker 2: very white movie, but it is handling this subject matter

1629
01:38:17,080 --> 01:38:22,639
Speaker 2: with more nuanced than movies from fifty or more years

1630
01:38:22,720 --> 01:38:29,599
Speaker 2: later handled this subject. So it's cool and interesting in

1631
01:38:29,680 --> 01:38:33,680
Speaker 2: that way. So three and a half nipples, and I

1632
01:38:33,760 --> 01:38:40,120
Speaker 2: will split them between Gloria Swanson, the actor who plays Betty,

1633
01:38:40,280 --> 01:38:48,360
Speaker 2: which is Nancy Olsen, and I'll give Billy Wilder, who

1634
01:38:49,040 --> 01:38:54,280
Speaker 2: hopefully was not problematic the way that basically everyone from

1635
01:38:54,280 --> 01:38:56,599
Speaker 2: that era was by default.

1636
01:38:57,560 --> 01:39:00,240
Speaker 1: I did a light scared he he said some kind

1637
01:39:00,240 --> 01:39:04,200
Speaker 1: of insulting things to Marilyn Monroe's intelligence that people feel

1638
01:39:04,200 --> 01:39:07,519
Speaker 1: one way or another about. And also, you know he

1639
01:39:07,680 --> 01:39:11,960
Speaker 1: was the seven year itch director that did the famous

1640
01:39:11,960 --> 01:39:15,840
Speaker 1: skirt up shot. You know, right, He's not without sin.

1641
01:39:16,000 --> 01:39:21,800
Speaker 1: But I, unfortunately am a big old fan. I want

1642
01:39:21,840 --> 01:39:24,040
Speaker 1: to give this movie for it that feels too high

1643
01:39:24,120 --> 01:39:28,400
Speaker 1: because of how cartoonish Norma is. But I also don't

1644
01:39:28,400 --> 01:39:29,880
Speaker 1: want to go much. I'm gonna go three point seven

1645
01:39:30,000 --> 01:39:34,040
Speaker 1: five because it's just vibe space. I think this movie

1646
01:39:34,200 --> 01:39:39,120
Speaker 1: is fantastic. I think that there are elements of it

1647
01:39:39,200 --> 01:39:43,120
Speaker 1: that feel studio notes thee I hope, like adding in

1648
01:39:43,520 --> 01:39:46,719
Speaker 1: a love story between Betty and Joe felt unnecessary, especially

1649
01:39:46,720 --> 01:39:48,639
Speaker 1: because as I was watching it, I was like, Betty

1650
01:39:48,680 --> 01:39:54,160
Speaker 1: could easily be a male character. Yeah, and I don't

1651
01:39:54,439 --> 01:39:57,360
Speaker 1: wish that, but just because of like, I just felt

1652
01:39:57,360 --> 01:39:59,879
Speaker 1: like the layering on of the love story was not necessary.

1653
01:40:00,120 --> 01:40:01,679
Speaker 1: One of the few things I really don't like about

1654
01:40:01,720 --> 01:40:05,680
Speaker 1: this spoofee. But Norma is iconic again for all of

1655
01:40:05,720 --> 01:40:08,400
Speaker 1: the complicated reasons we've talked about that also have to

1656
01:40:08,439 --> 01:40:10,760
Speaker 1: do with the production and the time. You know, is

1657
01:40:10,800 --> 01:40:14,000
Speaker 1: it reasonable that this is the best possible, you know,

1658
01:40:14,120 --> 01:40:18,120
Speaker 1: prestige part available to a woman over fifty at this time. No,

1659
01:40:18,200 --> 01:40:22,120
Speaker 1: I think that's incredibly fucked up. But it's an incredible part,

1660
01:40:22,200 --> 01:40:24,960
Speaker 1: and it's like I feel like you for the most part.

1661
01:40:25,000 --> 01:40:27,160
Speaker 1: And I know we've had discussions of the shades of gray,

1662
01:40:27,960 --> 01:40:29,880
Speaker 1: you know, sort of within that, but like you are

1663
01:40:29,920 --> 01:40:33,920
Speaker 1: given context for the ways in which Norma is a

1664
01:40:33,920 --> 01:40:37,280
Speaker 1: product of her environment, and it is not empathetic to

1665
01:40:37,400 --> 01:40:40,479
Speaker 1: her environment to the point where this movie actively makes

1666
01:40:40,520 --> 01:40:44,559
Speaker 1: a famous director look bad, which is amazing. I mean, like,

1667
01:40:44,600 --> 01:40:47,559
Speaker 1: I can't really think of a contemporary example of that

1668
01:40:47,720 --> 01:40:51,040
Speaker 1: happening in such an explicit way, like it's a you know,

1669
01:40:51,080 --> 01:40:54,200
Speaker 1: big old cautionary tale about why it's a heap of

1670
01:40:54,240 --> 01:40:58,000
Speaker 1: garbage to work in the entertainment industry, and you know,

1671
01:40:58,439 --> 01:41:04,080
Speaker 1: fair enough, I mean, not wrong, not untrue. And I

1672
01:41:04,120 --> 01:41:06,439
Speaker 1: also I mean, I think I know that Billy Wilder

1673
01:41:06,520 --> 01:41:09,360
Speaker 1: is kind of known or was known for a long

1674
01:41:09,360 --> 01:41:12,760
Speaker 1: time of being somewhat cynical in his outlook of the world,

1675
01:41:12,840 --> 01:41:15,439
Speaker 1: where it's like there's no suggestion on how to improve

1676
01:41:15,920 --> 01:41:18,080
Speaker 1: the entertainment industry. But I don't think that that's the

1677
01:41:18,200 --> 01:41:21,400
Speaker 1: job of the movie, you know. I think that it

1678
01:41:21,439 --> 01:41:25,720
Speaker 1: really paints a bleak picture of the Hollywood system at

1679
01:41:25,760 --> 01:41:29,400
Speaker 1: this time, and like it works, and I think the

1680
01:41:29,400 --> 01:41:32,040
Speaker 1: fact that it is age this well speaks to how

1681
01:41:32,479 --> 01:41:37,120
Speaker 1: little has actually changed. True. So I yeah, I just

1682
01:41:37,200 --> 01:41:41,160
Speaker 1: I think this is a wonderful movie. Three and zero

1683
01:41:41,160 --> 01:41:43,599
Speaker 1: point seventy five nipples still got a lot to say.

1684
01:41:43,640 --> 01:41:46,120
Speaker 1: I'm going to give one to Norma. She did what

1685
01:41:46,160 --> 01:41:48,360
Speaker 1: she had to do. I'm going to give one to Betty.

1686
01:41:48,880 --> 01:41:51,759
Speaker 1: I'm going to give one two hmmm.

1687
01:41:52,479 --> 01:41:56,679
Speaker 2: I give one to Hoguy, of course, Hogg guy.

1688
01:41:56,800 --> 01:42:00,240
Speaker 1: Where's my hog? Eye spin off. Now that we're we're

1689
01:42:00,240 --> 01:42:03,360
Speaker 1: scraping the bottom of the barrel of ip, Like, ha, guy,

1690
01:42:04,080 --> 01:42:04,880
Speaker 1: what about that guy?

1691
01:42:06,280 --> 01:42:08,800
Speaker 2: Let's give him six seasons in a movie. I'm gonna

1692
01:42:08,800 --> 01:42:11,320
Speaker 2: take back everything and give my three and a half

1693
01:42:11,400 --> 01:42:13,880
Speaker 2: nipples to the dead chimpanzee.

1694
01:42:14,400 --> 01:42:18,599
Speaker 1: Oh bless, they're hard. We didn't, we didn't, we don't know.

1695
01:42:19,400 --> 01:42:24,439
Speaker 1: And then I'll give my point seventy five cute Billy

1696
01:42:24,479 --> 01:42:27,559
Speaker 1: Wilder because God damn, I love him. I can't wait

1697
01:42:27,600 --> 01:42:29,080
Speaker 1: to cover the apartment. I can't wait to cover some

1698
01:42:29,240 --> 01:42:34,040
Speaker 1: like it hot and that Sunset Boulevard, Baby, I'm gonna

1699
01:42:34,040 --> 01:42:40,479
Speaker 1: celebrate by walking down Sunset Boulevard and buying one diet coke. Yay,

1700
01:42:40,840 --> 01:42:43,400
Speaker 1: that's my Sunset Boulevard. Walking down the street and getting

1701
01:42:43,400 --> 01:42:47,720
Speaker 1: a diet coke four times a day? Why because I

1702
01:42:47,720 --> 01:42:50,120
Speaker 1: can't have more than one soda at my house? Why

1703
01:42:50,600 --> 01:42:52,960
Speaker 1: obsessive compulsive disorder? Fair.

1704
01:42:53,439 --> 01:42:58,680
Speaker 2: I'm gonna walk down Sunset Boulevard and Nerd Mount used

1705
01:42:58,680 --> 01:42:59,960
Speaker 2: to be on Sunset Boulevard.

1706
01:43:00,680 --> 01:43:05,680
Speaker 1: RP, Folks, It's a long street. It's many miles. I

1707
01:43:05,720 --> 01:43:08,519
Speaker 1: was like, also, the Sunset Boulevard normous living on is

1708
01:43:08,680 --> 01:43:13,439
Speaker 1: not the Sunset no, we live on the PP side

1709
01:43:13,560 --> 01:43:16,280
Speaker 1: of Sunset Boulevard. Yeah, but I love it.

1710
01:43:16,400 --> 01:43:20,960
Speaker 2: I imagine she lives in like the Beverly Hills.

1711
01:43:21,120 --> 01:43:25,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, would you know all that? If you take the two,

1712
01:43:25,680 --> 01:43:27,920
Speaker 1: if you're a buzzhead like myself, you take the two

1713
01:43:27,960 --> 01:43:31,080
Speaker 1: far enough you'll get to normal zone. But yeah, we're

1714
01:43:31,080 --> 01:43:35,200
Speaker 1: we're closer to downtown. Anyways, you didn't ask. Uh. This

1715
01:43:35,240 --> 01:43:37,720
Speaker 1: is a great movie. I would highly recommend. And also

1716
01:43:37,880 --> 01:43:40,360
Speaker 1: it's streaming for free on the Internet Archive. If you

1717
01:43:40,360 --> 01:43:42,120
Speaker 1: haven't seen it before, you can watch it for free

1718
01:43:42,200 --> 01:43:48,040
Speaker 1: right now. Mm hm. Anyways, that's our show year. You

1719
01:43:48,160 --> 01:43:51,840
Speaker 1: got a Shrek, you got a Sunset Boulevard, and next week, spoiler,

1720
01:43:52,160 --> 01:43:55,920
Speaker 1: you got May Decemba. We're casting a wide net this year,

1721
01:43:56,000 --> 01:43:59,360
Speaker 1: so enjoy. Indeed, you can follow us on all the

1722
01:43:59,400 --> 01:44:01,479
Speaker 1: normal stuff. You can follow us on Instagram, you can

1723
01:44:01,520 --> 01:44:04,439
Speaker 1: follow us on x and you can also subscribe to

1724
01:44:04,479 --> 01:44:07,960
Speaker 1: our Patreon aka Matreon. Great way to start the year

1725
01:44:08,560 --> 01:44:11,800
Speaker 1: five bucks a month at yourself. Treat yourself. It's five

1726
01:44:11,800 --> 01:44:14,360
Speaker 1: bucks a month. It gets you access to two bonus

1727
01:44:14,400 --> 01:44:17,040
Speaker 1: episodes a month with Caitlin and myself, and you also

1728
01:44:17,479 --> 01:44:20,160
Speaker 1: get access to our back catalog of over I think

1729
01:44:20,200 --> 01:44:24,320
Speaker 1: officially over one hundred and fifty bonus episodes, so you'll

1730
01:44:24,360 --> 01:44:28,120
Speaker 1: be delighted and infuriated for days on end.

1731
01:44:29,040 --> 01:44:33,120
Speaker 2: So check that out and go to our link tree

1732
01:44:33,520 --> 01:44:36,160
Speaker 2: link tree slash Bechdall Cast to grab those tickets for

1733
01:44:36,360 --> 01:44:43,280
Speaker 2: our upcoming tour once again. It's San Francisco, Sacramento, Dallas, Austin,

1734
01:44:43,520 --> 01:44:47,880
Speaker 2: and San Diego. Will be in those cities in early February,

1735
01:44:48,000 --> 01:44:51,000
Speaker 2: so check our link tree to look at all the

1736
01:44:51,040 --> 01:44:54,439
Speaker 2: ticket links and the dates and the details. So we

1737
01:44:54,520 --> 01:44:57,160
Speaker 2: hope to see you there. Yes, and you can also

1738
01:44:57,240 --> 01:45:00,160
Speaker 2: go to teapublic dot com slash the Bechdel Cast to

1739
01:45:00,200 --> 01:45:02,559
Speaker 2: grab some merch. So what you're gonna want to do?

1740
01:45:03,439 --> 01:45:08,080
Speaker 2: Grab some merch, wear it to the live shows and

1741
01:45:08,120 --> 01:45:11,280
Speaker 2: then we'll take pictures together and it'll be so cute.

1742
01:45:11,640 --> 01:45:15,679
Speaker 1: Exactly. In conclusion, we love you, Happy New Year, Happy

1743
01:45:15,680 --> 01:45:18,439
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four. It's gonna be such a regular year.

1744
01:45:18,479 --> 01:45:23,200
Speaker 1: We can feel it. So normal, so norma, so norma,

1745
01:45:23,360 --> 01:45:31,080
Speaker 1: so normal. Goodbye, bye bye.

1746
01:45:31,120 --> 01:45:34,400
Speaker 2: The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by

1747
01:45:34,479 --> 01:45:38,360
Speaker 2: Caitlin Derante and Jamie loftis produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited

1748
01:45:38,439 --> 01:45:41,639
Speaker 2: by Mola Board. Our theme song was composed by Mike

1749
01:45:41,760 --> 01:45:46,120
Speaker 2: Kaplan with vocals by Catherine Vosskrosenski. Our logo in Merch

1750
01:45:46,280 --> 01:45:49,240
Speaker 2: is designed by Jamie Loftis and a special thanks to

1751
01:45:49,240 --> 01:45:53,679
Speaker 2: Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit

1752
01:45:53,720 --> 01:45:55,680
Speaker 2: link Tree Slash Bechdel Cast