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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: It's really a story at post war America of changing societies.

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Speaker 2: Everything changed after the war in terms of jobs and

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Speaker 2: how people lived their lives, and there were a lot

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Speaker 2: of people that came back for war and felt lost.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

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Speaker 1: crime cases. This is at the choices writers make, both

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Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the

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Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. I talk a lot about

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Speaker 1: how history repeats itself, so this story unfortunately feels like

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Speaker 1: it could have happened even today, though it's actually seventy

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Speaker 1: five years ago. Author Ellen J. Green wrote a book

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Speaker 1: called Murder in the Neighborhood, The True Story of America's

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Speaker 1: first recorded mass shooting, will be in nineteen forty five

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Speaker 1: East Camden, New Jersey, and Green tries to answer the

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Speaker 1: questions why did the shooter do it and if anyone

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Speaker 1: could have stopped him. So let's start with the neighborhood

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Speaker 1: that we're talking about in the year. Tell me about

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Speaker 1: this part of New Jersey in this time period.

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Speaker 2: So the story is set in Camden, in a very

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Speaker 2: small section of Camden that's called Creamer Hill. The Camden

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Speaker 2: is right over the bridge from Philadelphia, and at the time,

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Speaker 2: Camden was very much like Brooklyn is to New York

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Speaker 2: City people. There was a bridge and you could walk

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Speaker 2: over it and people would walk back and forth. There

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Speaker 2: were a lot of restaurants in shopping, in theater, and

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Speaker 2: all kinds of events happening in Camden. So the two

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Speaker 2: cities were very much connected. The section where this took place,

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Speaker 2: Cramer Hill, was very small town feel. It was first

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Speaker 2: generation immigrants, second generation immigrants, very working class. Everybody knew

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Speaker 2: everybody in this part of town. They all went to

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Speaker 2: the same schools, they all worked in the same places,

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Speaker 2: they all knew each other. Intimately. It was nineteen forty nine,

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Speaker 2: so the war had been over for about four years.

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Speaker 2: People were still finding their place. And it's interesting because

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Speaker 2: people think that after the war the economy was booming

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Speaker 2: and there were all these jobs, and that is true.

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Speaker 2: There was a recession in nineteen forty nine and some

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Speaker 2: of the factories were closing death and a lot of

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Speaker 2: these men that had come back from war and jumped

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Speaker 2: back into these jobs, the jobs suddenly were not there,

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Speaker 2: so there was a bit of shuffling of families. And

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Speaker 2: Howard he had a kind of interesting story in that

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Speaker 2: his parents separated and he was living with his mother.

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Speaker 2: He came back from the war and they rented this

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Speaker 2: apartment on River Road in Framer Hills section Camden. He

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Speaker 2: was working at different odd jobs. He at one point

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Speaker 2: wanted to become a pharmacist and got into Temple Pharmacy school,

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Speaker 2: but he started within the early part of like nineteen

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Speaker 2: forty eight, struggling. His mother noted that he was very

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Speaker 2: different when he came back from war. He was more isolated,

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Speaker 2: he was more paranoid. He seemed to be more obsessed

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Speaker 2: with guns. He started collecting guns. He had been very

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Speaker 2: religious before the war. He and his mother went to

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Speaker 2: church every single week. They were in Bible study. That

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Speaker 2: was his community. When he came back from war, he

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Speaker 2: was not so interested in going to church anymore. He

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Speaker 2: was keeping to himself. He had made detailed notes about

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Speaker 2: the killing of German prisoners war that he had witnessed.

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Speaker 2: He couldn't get it out of his mind, and in

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Speaker 2: letters to his mother he said he just felt like

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Speaker 2: Jesus left him, that Jesus had allowed this to happen,

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Speaker 2: that he had had to kill these people who were

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Speaker 2: you know, whether you say they're innocent, they were soldiers,

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Speaker 2: but they were prisoners, and they just shot them full

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Speaker 2: blood because they couldn't take them with them. It was

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Speaker 2: the Battle of the Bulge, which was a very particularly

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Speaker 2: bruesome battle towards the end of the war, and they

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Speaker 2: just couldn't afford to take the prisoners of war with them,

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Speaker 2: so they had to kill them. And this affected him.

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Speaker 2: He wrote in his diary a lot about this, so

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Speaker 2: he was kind of struggling with himself. The other the

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Speaker 2: to this book, It was very interesting when I was

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Speaker 2: doing research, is that Howard Unru was gay. And he

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Speaker 2: said he knew from the time that he was in

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Speaker 2: middle school that he was different, and he couldn't tell

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Speaker 2: you why. He just knew that he wasn't really attracted

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Speaker 2: to girls, that he was more attractive to boys, so

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Speaker 2: he kept it to himself. When he came back from war,

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Speaker 2: he did have a girlfriend from his church, but later

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Speaker 2: if you read his hospital records, you know he talked

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Speaker 2: about it. He was never really interested in this woman.

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Speaker 2: He just was doing it because he felt like it

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Speaker 2: was something we should do. At some point, he talks

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Speaker 2: about going over to Philadelphia and going to this family

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Speaker 2: theater that was a known hotspot for gay men to visit,

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Speaker 2: and he began having affairs, lots of affairs with men,

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Speaker 2: and this was like a secret part of his life.

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Speaker 2: He would just catch the bus he would go over.

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Speaker 2: He never told his mother. He actually got an apartment

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Speaker 2: in Philadelphia and was visiting with these men and coming back,

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Speaker 2: and he just petrified that people in this small town

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Speaker 2: part of can Did were going to figure out what

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Speaker 2: was going on, And in fact, people did when I

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Speaker 2: interviewed them. Now most of the people had passed away,

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Speaker 2: but some were still alive and said, yes, we kind

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Speaker 2: of knew that he was gay. And they used to

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Speaker 2: torment him. They tormented him. They threw things at him

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Speaker 2: when he was walking down the street like mud or whatever.

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Speaker 2: They made fun of him, they mocked him, they got

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Speaker 2: in his way. And these were the people that were

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Speaker 2: living on the street with him in the various shops.

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Speaker 2: He later said that he just never felt like he

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Speaker 2: could get a break, like he couldn't even go out

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Speaker 2: of his front door without somebody giving him a hard time.

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Speaker 2: And he didn't have any close friends, and he didn't

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Speaker 2: know how to fit in. He couldn't keep a job.

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Speaker 2: He was just restless and the one person. And I

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Speaker 2: centered the story around this twelve year old boy that

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Speaker 2: I stumbled upon by accident. His father and Howard unretreated stamps.

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Speaker 2: They're both avid stamp collectors, so they used this twelve

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Speaker 2: year old boy to take stamps back and forth. And

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Speaker 2: his name was Raymond Havens. And Raymond Havens became probably

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Speaker 2: one of the closest people Howard Unrup. He would sit

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Speaker 2: with him, he would talk about the albums that they had,

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Speaker 2: he would listen to Howard UND's war stories. So he

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Speaker 2: is the narrator of the story of how this unfold.

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Speaker 2: How he got to know Howard of him visiting with

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Speaker 2: him and talking to him, and he understood both sides

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Speaker 2: because he saw the people make fun of him.

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Speaker 1: I want to go back and ask a little bit

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Speaker 1: about Howard's childhood and family dynamic. I know we're connecting

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Speaker 1: a lot to the war, and of course the way

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Speaker 1: he was tormented was his father around. What was the

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Speaker 1: family dynamic and when does he at what age does

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Speaker 1: he go into World War two? How long was he there?

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Speaker 1: How was he treated there too?

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Speaker 2: So he grew up. He had a brother, younger brother, James.

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Speaker 2: It was his mother father and just the two boys.

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Speaker 2: The parents separated and the father kind of abandoned the family.

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Speaker 2: Howard was probably a teenager at the time, and the

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Speaker 2: mother was kind of left to her own devices at

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Speaker 2: a time when it was very difficult. She didn't have

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Speaker 2: any kind of education, so she was working in soap

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Speaker 2: factory fect so to try to keep a roof over

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Speaker 2: her head and raise these two boys. Howard was older

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Speaker 2: than James by about three years, and they were very different.

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Speaker 2: James was very outgoing, very social, very easy child to raise,

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Speaker 2: didn't have any problems, got a job when he was

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Speaker 2: like sixteen, so the mother was sort of with Howard alone.

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Speaker 2: Howard went into the war in nineteen forty four, so

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Speaker 2: he was there first in Italy and then in Germany, Belgium, France.

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Speaker 2: He was in the war in combat for about one year.

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Speaker 1: And what were his experiences like I can imagine obviously

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Speaker 1: you've touched on the trauma that he's describing prisoners of war.

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Speaker 1: Did he have anything specific about maybe the way other

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Speaker 1: GI's were treating him.

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Speaker 2: What I found in interviews with his commanding officers is

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Speaker 2: he was very quiet. He kept to himself. He didn't drink,

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Speaker 2: He didn't go out with the other guys like they

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Speaker 2: would get, you know, a break and they would all

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Speaker 2: go into town. He was very quiet, kept to himself.

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Speaker 2: There was nothing remarkable in his army records about his

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Speaker 2: behavior about anything that he was doing.

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Speaker 1: Nobody picked up on the fact that he might be

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Speaker 1: gay like they did in the neighborhood. What do you

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Speaker 1: think the difference was.

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Speaker 2: You know, he does write about men saying things to him,

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Speaker 2: but he kept it to himself. He didn't talk, he

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Speaker 2: didn't open up. And they were involved in these brutal battles,

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Speaker 2: so I don't know that there was as much I

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Speaker 2: don't want to say free time, but they were all

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Speaker 2: working as a team. He was a tank gunner, he

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Speaker 2: had a specific job, and he was very very good

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Speaker 2: at it. He was very good throughout his life. When

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Speaker 2: he had structure and purpose, he seemed to fit in

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Speaker 2: very well. Though he was quiet. He had a job,

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Speaker 2: he was put in his job. He knew what was

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Speaker 2: expected of him, and he didn't have any overt problems.

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Speaker 2: Now there's nothing in his record that they were poor

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Speaker 2: man him or anything. He was in the military.

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Speaker 1: Did you get a sense for any aspirations he might

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Speaker 1: have had, either before the military or immediately after or

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Speaker 1: immediately after. It sounds like he was quite literally shell shocked.

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Speaker 2: I don't know that he had any aspirations. You know,

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Speaker 2: he came from a very working class neighborhood. I think

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Speaker 2: he want he worked in a machine shop. He had

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Speaker 2: talked about wanting to get a job as a government

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Speaker 2: employee for the security and safety of it. And I

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Speaker 2: think that's as far as it went in his mind.

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Speaker 1: That's a pretty good job. I mean, that's a good aspiration. Well,

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Speaker 1: his mother's working in you said of soap factory. Is

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Speaker 1: that right?

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Speaker 2: He worked in Evanson's soap factory. Yes, in Camden, backing soap.

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Speaker 1: Wow. Okay, as we continue, how many years are we

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Speaker 1: talking about where he has been harassed. He is dealing

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Speaker 1: with clearly PTSD from the war and re entry back

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Speaker 1: into normal society. How many years are we talking about

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Speaker 1: before all of this turns very terrible for him and

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Speaker 1: for of course the community.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, probably about three three and a half years, I

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Speaker 2: would say, from nineteen forty five nineteen forty six, And

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Speaker 2: this happened in nineteen forty nine, So he had a

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Speaker 2: good three years where he was floating about, didn't know

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Speaker 2: where he fit in, had a bunch of jobs. He

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Speaker 2: was in pharmacy school, and he was doing well, and

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Speaker 2: then everything just fell apart. He ended up flunking out.

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Speaker 2: He couldn't hold on to a job. His mother said

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Speaker 2: she noticed a lot of mental changes in him. He

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Speaker 2: became very paranoid, suspicious of the people around him. Something

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Speaker 2: small would happen, like the grocer would give him the

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Speaker 2: wrong change, and he would assume it was because gentlemen

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Speaker 2: didn't like him, and he would create these whole scenarios

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Speaker 2: around this, even though part of it was real that

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Speaker 2: people were tormenting him. He would read into the smallest

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Speaker 2: thing and obsess about it.

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Speaker 1: To his experiences. What you're describing right now, sort of

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Speaker 1: the paranoia on edge overreacting. Do these line up with

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Speaker 1: what you might have read other soldiers, people who had

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Speaker 1: been drafted or enlisted, had gone through when they came

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Speaker 1: back from World War Two? Do those things line up

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Speaker 1: with what he was feeling.

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Speaker 2: In some respects? Now, I worked as a therapist in

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Speaker 2: a maximum security correctional facility for many years, which is

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Speaker 2: how I kind of stumbled on the story and started writing.

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Speaker 2: In some respects, yes, there are overlaps. People that have

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Speaker 2: PTSD can be very paranoid. They have a heightened sense

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Speaker 2: of awareness of everything happening around them. But Howard it

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Speaker 2: almost took on and he was diagnosed with schizophrenic. Whether

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Speaker 2: he truly really fit that description or not is still

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Speaker 2: up for debate. But there was an extra edge to

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Speaker 2: it of his paranoia. He would listen through the walls

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Speaker 2: at his neighbors. I mean, all of that kind of

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Speaker 2: outside parameters normal even for somebody with PTSD.

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Speaker 1: What would have been the tree meant for schizophrenia in

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Speaker 1: the late nineteen forties early nineteen fifties. Would that have

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Speaker 1: been shock therapy or would there have been drugs?

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Speaker 2: There was no medication at the time. Dorseyn came out

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Speaker 2: in the fifties. Yes, they would use shock therapy, they

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Speaker 2: would use insulin shock therapy, they would use ice baths,

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Speaker 2: all of that kind of thing. He was hospitalized after

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Speaker 2: the incident and never got out of the hospital. Actually

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Speaker 2: spent the rest of his life in the hospital. They

240
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Speaker 2: never used any of those treatments. They used something called

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Speaker 2: narcosynthesis on it. Narcosynthesis is the use of sodium amatol

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Speaker 2: that they would use because they thought it unleashed the unconscious,

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Speaker 2: but they found it really just blurred fantasy. It wasn't

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Speaker 2: really effective, so they stopped using it.

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Speaker 1: So he is coming back from the war. It is

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Speaker 1: three three and a half years of it sounds like

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Speaker 1: really difficult times for Howard. He's living in this sort

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Speaker 1: of paranoia. He's with us mother, he had been with

249
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Speaker 1: a girl he really didn't want to be with. He

250
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Speaker 1: has a little bit of a secret life going. But

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Speaker 1: it sounds like he's having a difficult time and probably

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Speaker 1: people are having a difficult time with him. Is this

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Speaker 1: when the harassment is happening in the neighborhood of people

254
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Speaker 1: doing all of the name callings or did that happen

255
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Speaker 1: before the war when he was a little younger.

256
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Speaker 2: There is nothing at all that I could find about

257
00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:27,480
Speaker 2: him being harrasked before he went into the war. This

258
00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:31,600
Speaker 2: all really culminated when he came back. If you look

259
00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:35,280
Speaker 2: at the map of these shops along the street where

260
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Speaker 2: he lived, there were shop owners. They were all like

261
00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,960
Speaker 2: bomb and pop shops where people random and lived upstairs,

262
00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:43,600
Speaker 2: and so they were there all the time. It really

263
00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:47,960
Speaker 2: started after the war, when his paranoia increased. They saw

264
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Speaker 2: a change in his behavior. And I don't know what's

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00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:52,880
Speaker 2: said at all. All I could find is that it

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00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,800
Speaker 2: increased steadily from nineteen forty six to nineteen forty nine.

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Speaker 1: Is there something from your background that you could draw

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Speaker 1: on to think? What would that be? Is that him

269
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Speaker 1: getting older and hormones changing or does that seem surprising

270
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Speaker 1: to you that it was sort of a deteriorating conditioner.

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Speaker 1: Is that normal?

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Speaker 2: Well, it could be anything. It could be that he

273
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Speaker 2: was getting older. It also could be and I think

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Speaker 2: it was because he started engaging in these homosexual relationships,

275
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Speaker 2: and so his paranoia about that increase. So his behavior

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Speaker 2: towards those people changed. His demeanor changed. He was so

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Speaker 2: afraid that they were going to find out what he

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00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:34,520
Speaker 2: was doing. He started acting differently towards them, which then

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Speaker 2: elicited sort of a different response from them to him,

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Speaker 2: and it was sort of back and forth.

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Speaker 1: What was your impression of what his mother was thinking.

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Speaker 1: Was she worried that he was going to act out

283
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Speaker 1: violently or was she just crossing her fingers that he

284
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Speaker 1: was going to meet a nice girl who would set

285
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Speaker 1: him straight and everything would be okay. Do you have

286
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Speaker 1: any idea?

287
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Speaker 2: I think that she kept trying to get him to

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Speaker 2: come back to church. She was extremely religious, and it

289
00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:03,680
Speaker 2: was convinced that if he came back to church that

290
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Speaker 2: everything was going to be fine. She was very worried

291
00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:09,120
Speaker 2: about his behavior. She didn't know why all of a

292
00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,080
Speaker 2: sudden he was going to Philadelphia. He set up a

293
00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:15,040
Speaker 2: shooting range in their basement, and people said, you could

294
00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:18,280
Speaker 2: hear the bullets that would miss the target would hit

295
00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:20,880
Speaker 2: the concrete, and the whole building would shape. And this

296
00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:23,000
Speaker 2: was going on, and she would go down in the

297
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Speaker 2: basement and try to figure out what was going on.

298
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Speaker 2: She didn't have a huge support system turned through other

299
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Speaker 2: than the people in the church, and their answer to

300
00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:33,360
Speaker 2: all of this was he needs to come back to church,

301
00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:35,760
Speaker 2: you know, he's not reading the five. There was no

302
00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,880
Speaker 2: outside help, there were no mental health professionals. I don't

303
00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:41,400
Speaker 2: think she knew where to turn. I don't think she

304
00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,400
Speaker 2: ever envisioned that it was going to end up with

305
00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,520
Speaker 2: this incident on September sixth, nineteen forty nine. I don't

306
00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:51,000
Speaker 2: think anybody had ever witnessed anything like this before. I

307
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,360
Speaker 2: don't think anything like this had ever happened. I think

308
00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:57,040
Speaker 2: there was certainly gun violence before this. There were robberies

309
00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,320
Speaker 2: and people got shot, but it was always secondary to

310
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Speaker 2: another mode. It was unheard of for people to just

311
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:05,640
Speaker 2: walk out and just start shooting people in a neighbor randomly,

312
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Speaker 2: and especially children.

313
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Speaker 1: How do you write a book like this? You know,

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Speaker 1: I can imagine. I don't know if this is true,

315
00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:13,520
Speaker 1: but I can imagine if I wrote a book like this,

316
00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:16,199
Speaker 1: people would say, well, it sounds like you're kind of

317
00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:19,720
Speaker 1: defending what he did, like you're explaining it away. What

318
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Speaker 1: would be your explanation to that that? It's like, well,

319
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Speaker 1: I mean, look at all these circumstances this guy had.

320
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Speaker 1: It doesn't give him an excuse, but it does give

321
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Speaker 1: us context. Do you get that ever from people?

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Speaker 2: All the time? I did a presentation on the book

323
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Speaker 2: at a local library, and family members showed up grandchildren

324
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Speaker 2: and said, it sounds like you're just making excuses for

325
00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:46,160
Speaker 2: what he did. It's not that I wrote this book

326
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Speaker 2: because I wanted to make excuses for what this man did.

327
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Speaker 2: But I really don't think that we can ever move

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Speaker 2: forward in society with what's happening with people unless we

329
00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,640
Speaker 2: understand what's happening inside of their mind. I mean, that's

330
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Speaker 2: where it all begins, that's the seed of it. And

331
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Speaker 2: this was the very first shooting in the country that

332
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:06,760
Speaker 2: was recorded, and I wanted to know what was happening

333
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:11,119
Speaker 2: inside this man's mind. What happened that he didn't have

334
00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:13,600
Speaker 2: the Internet where he was listening to all this stuff

335
00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:15,920
Speaker 2: or seeing this play out, and he thought, oh, I'm angry,

336
00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,840
Speaker 2: I'm going to go shoot people. This had never happened,

337
00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,160
Speaker 2: and to me, it was just fascinating reading his hospital

338
00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,800
Speaker 2: records with psychiatrists about what was happening and what had

339
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:28,760
Speaker 2: happened to him. None of this is an excuse and

340
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,120
Speaker 2: none of this is acceptable, But I think if we're

341
00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:33,800
Speaker 2: going to understand it, we have to understand how it

342
00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:37,760
Speaker 2: happened and the neighborhood. This didn't happen in a vacuum. Okay.

343
00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:41,040
Speaker 2: It was a community, and people in that community played

344
00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:45,080
Speaker 2: a part in some ways. Not that they're to blame,

345
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:47,600
Speaker 2: but they played a part. There was an interaction, a

346
00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,000
Speaker 2: dance between the two of them that culminated in this

347
00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:52,080
Speaker 2: And I don't think any of those people ever saw

348
00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:52,720
Speaker 2: this happening.

349
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Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about it. What do we know the

350
00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:57,800
Speaker 1: most detail of that really starts this off when he

351
00:18:57,880 --> 00:18:59,040
Speaker 1: starts his spree.

352
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Speaker 2: So mining thing that happened, and this consumed me when

353
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,080
Speaker 2: I was writing this book. Labor Day was September fifth,

354
00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:09,880
Speaker 2: nineteen forty nine. It was a Monday. Everything was normal

355
00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,600
Speaker 2: by all accounts. By his mother's account, they had a

356
00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:18,480
Speaker 2: family friend come over. They had some sort of meal together.

357
00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:23,040
Speaker 2: The catalyst for this whole event was if you look

358
00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:25,679
Speaker 2: at the way that Howard Unru's apartment was set up.

359
00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,040
Speaker 2: When he came out of his backyard, he had no

360
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,480
Speaker 2: way to get to the street without walking across the

361
00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:35,800
Speaker 2: neighbor's patio. Okay, so that was a never ending problem.

362
00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:38,120
Speaker 2: There was no door from the front that he'd get

363
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,200
Speaker 2: to street, so he had to go through the neighbor's

364
00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,199
Speaker 2: patio to get to the street or walk through this

365
00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:46,480
Speaker 2: rough lot, which they called a rough lot. It was

366
00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:48,960
Speaker 2: filled with weeds and dirt. He had to walk through

367
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,639
Speaker 2: that to cut through this alley. And so after a

368
00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:55,320
Speaker 2: long time, the neighbor said he couldn't use the patio

369
00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:57,640
Speaker 2: anymore and blocked it all. So he had no way

370
00:19:57,680 --> 00:19:59,600
Speaker 2: to get to the street except walking through and his

371
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,520
Speaker 2: mother too had to walk through these weeds. So he

372
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,439
Speaker 2: came up with his idea of putting a gate at

373
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:08,160
Speaker 2: the very end of his yard, and a family friend

374
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,959
Speaker 2: came over and helped them put this gate in. And

375
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,920
Speaker 2: the gate allowed them access to a driveway where they

376
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:15,760
Speaker 2: could then go to the street, and they didn't have

377
00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:17,879
Speaker 2: to bother the neighbor next to them, and they didn't

378
00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:20,240
Speaker 2: have to go through the weeds. And he was very

379
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,080
Speaker 2: happy with that, and they built this gate on that

380
00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:26,639
Speaker 2: Labor day and he was very happy. He left. He

381
00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:30,320
Speaker 2: went to the movies in Philadelphia to meet this man

382
00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,160
Speaker 2: that he had been seeing for about three weeks, and

383
00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,240
Speaker 2: the bus was late, and so what happened was when

384
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,480
Speaker 2: he got to the theater, this man, whose name is Bann,

385
00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:42,960
Speaker 2: was gone. And in those days, there were no cell phones,

386
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,320
Speaker 2: no way to reach him. The guy was leaving town.

387
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,480
Speaker 2: He missed his opportunity. He never got to say goodbye.

388
00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:52,240
Speaker 2: He was devastated by this. For some reason, this relationship

389
00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:53,680
Speaker 2: meant a lot to him. I think it was the

390
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,760
Speaker 2: first person he had really connected with. So this man

391
00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,720
Speaker 2: was gone. He got back on the bus. He sat

392
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:02,840
Speaker 2: in the movie theater and watched the same movie over

393
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,920
Speaker 2: for like three cycles, and then got up and got

394
00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:09,639
Speaker 2: the bus and came home. When he got home, somebody

395
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,480
Speaker 2: in the neighborhood had ripped his gate apart, and so

396
00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:15,080
Speaker 2: he stood there looking at it, and he was like,

397
00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:17,880
Speaker 2: you know, I have been tormented. I can't go through

398
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:19,800
Speaker 2: the patio to get to the street. I have no

399
00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,479
Speaker 2: way to get access except for walking through all these weeds.

400
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,000
Speaker 2: Tried to find a resolution, peaceful resolution, so that I

401
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:28,320
Speaker 2: could get out of my own backyard. And they ripped

402
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,280
Speaker 2: it apart, and he said he decided right then when

403
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:33,480
Speaker 2: he walked through that he saw it, and he walked

404
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,840
Speaker 2: through that hole. He was going to kill them. I'm

405
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,879
Speaker 2: going to get them back. I'm done. He went upstairs

406
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,280
Speaker 2: and he waited, He slept a little bit. He left

407
00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:44,680
Speaker 2: a note for his mother and said, can you wake

408
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,520
Speaker 2: me up? At eight o'clock. So his mother thought, well,

409
00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,680
Speaker 2: maybe he's got a job interview. This is great, So

410
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,600
Speaker 2: she wakes him up. He comes downstairs, has a breakfast

411
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,760
Speaker 2: like normal, you know, gets dressed what he was waiting

412
00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,359
Speaker 2: for with a shop stove, and the mother said he

413
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,800
Speaker 2: was acting very, very strange. He went down in the

414
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,000
Speaker 2: basement to get some ammunition. He came back up and

415
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:07,679
Speaker 2: she said he had this very strange look in his

416
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,320
Speaker 2: face and he wouldn't move out of the way, and

417
00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:12,920
Speaker 2: he raised this ranch over his head and she was

418
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:14,720
Speaker 2: afraid he was going to hit her, and she ran

419
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,720
Speaker 2: out of the house down the street to a neighbor's house.

420
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,120
Speaker 2: So he got dressed, loaded his gun, waited for the shops,

421
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,240
Speaker 2: and he had a plan, He had a list. He

422
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:25,280
Speaker 2: knew exactly what it was going to do. This wasn't

423
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:27,560
Speaker 2: like random or I'm just mad and I'm going to

424
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,480
Speaker 2: shoot everybody. And he did it in a very methodical way,

425
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,959
Speaker 2: and he talks about it later in his hospital records,

426
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,320
Speaker 2: very clear. He just had it with the people. And

427
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,280
Speaker 2: so he walked through the lot with the weeds and

428
00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:42,439
Speaker 2: came out on the street and started with the cobbler

429
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,639
Speaker 2: shop and just walked in and shot the cobbler and

430
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,880
Speaker 2: then proceeded to go straight down the street, and at

431
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,120
Speaker 2: some point he spiraled and it became a different kind

432
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 2: of shooting because it was no longer calculated towards certain people.

433
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,879
Speaker 2: He just started spree shooting and ended up killing the

434
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,919
Speaker 2: people five men, five women, and three children.

435
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,120
Speaker 1: And the next door neighbor. Is that the cobbler or

436
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,440
Speaker 1: does he end up killing the next door neighbor, which

437
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:11,359
Speaker 1: seems to be partially the impetus for all of this.

438
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,199
Speaker 2: Yes, his main target was the next door neighbor, his

439
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,920
Speaker 2: wife and the reason he wanted to kill the cobbler.

440
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 2: But he knew if he started with the neighbor that

441
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 2: the cobbler would escape, and he didn't want the cobbler,

442
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,200
Speaker 2: so he was very methodical with this. So he did

443
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 2: it in order to make sure that he could get

444
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,240
Speaker 2: everybody on his list. So he did. He killed his

445
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:37,679
Speaker 2: next door neighbor, Mauric's Cohen, his wife Rose Cohen, and

446
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,919
Speaker 2: the grandmother Minnie Cohen, and their little boy, Charles Cohen,

447
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:44,199
Speaker 2: who was twelve years old at the time, was in

448
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:48,160
Speaker 2: the apartment, and there are varying accounts about where he

449
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 2: was at the time. He says he was in a closet,

450
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 2: that his grandmother put him in a closet, which is

451
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 2: very possible. It's very possible he was standing in the

452
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 2: hallway when it happened, and Howard didn't shoot him because

453
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 2: he wasn't a tar, but he may have been in

454
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 2: the closet. Charles survived, and then he just let him

455
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 2: live and went down to the street and shot somebody

456
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,199
Speaker 2: as they were driving your car, and just continued on

457
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:15,119
Speaker 2: his way. And then when he had expended all of

458
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 2: his bullets, he went back to his apartment and laid

459
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 2: down in his bed and waited.

460
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 1: And his mother had no idea this was happening. She

461
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:24,160
Speaker 1: didn't hear any of the gunfire.

462
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 2: The mother did. She said she ran out because he

463
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 2: was acting strange, and when she got to the neighbors

464
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 2: she heard gunshots, and she said she instinctively knew that

465
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,680
Speaker 2: this was her son. And she said, Howard, what did

466
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:38,359
Speaker 2: they make you do?

467
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 1: Are the police called at some point or how does

468
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 1: that even work? In nineteen forty nine, Is there like

469
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 1: an emergency call box?

470
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,439
Speaker 2: The police were called, police were called by numerous people,

471
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 2: and they had never experienced anything like this, and They

472
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,399
Speaker 2: didn't really quite know how to handle it. He was

473
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 2: in the house. He was in his house. They surrounded

474
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 2: the apartment, he was upstairs. He had barricaded himself. At

475
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,439
Speaker 2: that point they started shooting at the building, so there

476
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 2: are pock marks in that building where the police were

477
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:14,160
Speaker 2: just shooting at concrete. He finally surrendered, and they threw

478
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,639
Speaker 2: tear gas through the windows and flushed him out, and

479
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 2: he finally surrendered downstairs.

480
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 1: What was his mother's reaction to all of this? She

481
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,159
Speaker 1: was saying, howard would they make you do? But was

482
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 1: she sort of trying not to defend him, but trying

483
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 1: to protect him from being shot by the police. I

484
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:32,640
Speaker 1: imagine she was a few.

485
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,399
Speaker 2: Blocks away at her friend's house, so she did not

486
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,879
Speaker 2: witness any of that firsthand, but for the rest of

487
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 2: her life she defended him. He was indicted, but he

488
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,920
Speaker 2: never spent one day in jail. Not Ever, they didn't

489
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 2: know quite what to do, so they had four psychiatrists

490
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 2: come to see him, who determined that maybe he needed

491
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 2: psychiatric evaluation. They sent him to Trenton psych Facility and

492
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,160
Speaker 2: he stayed there for the rest of his entire life.

493
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,919
Speaker 2: He never spent a day in jail. He was never indicted.

494
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,639
Speaker 2: In fact, the murderer were dropped in nineteen eighty.

495
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 1: What was the reaction of the community when that happened.

496
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,159
Speaker 1: I'm assuming people wanted him to get the chair or

497
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 1: whatever the death penalty was at the time, and then

498
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 1: he ends up in a psychiatric facility. I know how

499
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 1: a lot of people now feel about that. Let alone

500
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 1: in nineteen forty nine.

501
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,639
Speaker 2: Yes, they were living and they couldn't understand. So the

502
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 2: way that it played out, this happened September sixth, He

503
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 2: was actually shot during all of this. Howard under was shot.

504
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:30,439
Speaker 2: He took a bullet in the buttox, so he had

505
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 2: to go to Cooper Hospital have surgery. And when he

506
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 2: was there, these four psychiatrists were called in to evaluate

507
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 2: him and they deterrined he needed to go to a

508
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 2: psychiatric hospital at least temporary until we can get a

509
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:44,920
Speaker 2: sense of what's going on. He needs to be committed,

510
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:49,119
Speaker 2: so they committed him to treat in psychiatric hospital. They

511
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 2: were thinking that once the evaluation took place, that he

512
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,159
Speaker 2: was going to be sent to jail and that he

513
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,719
Speaker 2: would stand for the charges. Howard thought he was going

514
00:26:57,760 --> 00:26:59,439
Speaker 2: to go to jail and that he was going to

515
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 2: stand for the charges, and at the time, putting somebody

516
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 2: to death was much quicker process. It took place within

517
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 2: a year, there was no like ten year gap or anything.

518
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:09,199
Speaker 2: So he thought that he was going to get the

519
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,919
Speaker 2: death penalty and fully expected it. But what happened was

520
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 2: they were waiting for clearance from psychiatry to say that

521
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 2: he was fit to stand trial, and that just never happened.

522
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,880
Speaker 2: Once he was committed to Trenton psych he stayed there.

523
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 2: So when they made the determination I think it was

524
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 2: October eighth that he was going to be permanently committed,

525
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 2: the neighborhood was devastating. They had interviews in the newspaper

526
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 2: this man needs to hang. They wanted some sort of

527
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:43,919
Speaker 2: retribution against him. They thought that the system was protecting him.

528
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 2: Up until the day he died. He was coming up

529
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,400
Speaker 2: for prol hearings, which in New Jersey is if you're

530
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 2: not guilty by reason of insanity, you have to appear

531
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,399
Speaker 2: before a judge every year just for a review. And

532
00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 2: these family members were coming to court every year saying

533
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 2: this is enough, like this has to stop. This man

534
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 2: needs to pay for what he did.

535
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:09,400
Speaker 1: So now let's talk about one of your other big sources.

536
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 1: Who was little Raymond right, who was very close to

537
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 1: Howard before all of this happened. Tell me Raymond's story

538
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:18,440
Speaker 1: about you know, everything that happened that day.

539
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,639
Speaker 2: Well, the interesting part about Raymond is when I was

540
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 2: researching the story and I was trying to figure the angle.

541
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 2: How do I tell the story? Am I going to

542
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 2: tell it is straight nonfiction? Am I going to try

543
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 2: to find a narrator? I kept coming up with this name,

544
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 2: Raymond Hans. His name would appear because he was in

545
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 2: the barbershop when Howard Unru came in. He was sitting

546
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 2: there and he didn't shoot him. He kind of looked

547
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 2: at him and he didn't shoot him. He knew Howard,

548
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 2: but I didn't know more of the story, and I

549
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 2: kept trying to find him and I couldn't find him.

550
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 2: It's like he had dropped off the face of the earth.

551
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 2: So finally I found a relative. So the reason you

552
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 2: can't find him is that he moved to the United Kingdom.

553
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 2: So I did finally reach his daughter, who said he

554
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 2: had passed away, but that she was willing to help

555
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 2: me with the whole story. The other person that was

556
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 2: very helpful were children on the block that grew up

557
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 2: with Raymond. Joseph Campbell interviewed with me at length. He

558
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 2: was about the same age as Raymond. Knew the story,

559
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 2: and so I leaned a lot of details from different sources.

560
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 2: Raymond's daughter, Andrea, he met a woman in when he

561
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 2: was in the service who was English, so she ended

562
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 2: up growing up in the United Kingdom. So she told

563
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 2: me a lot about her father, and we sent clippings

564
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 2: back and forth, and she told me bits and pieces

565
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 2: of his story and what she knew about the story

566
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 2: and what he had told her about his relationship with Howard,

567
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 2: and he felt that he was close to him, but

568
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 2: he also felt guilty. He felt guilty because he didn't

569
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 2: see this coming. He was afraid people were going to

570
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 2: blame him or connect him with what happened.

571
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 1: So Raymond becomes kind of a good voice for you,

572
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 1: I think, and I've always thought that children are powerful

573
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 1: voices also, I have My first book was set in

574
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty two, and it was the beginning of it

575
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 1: was sort of the point of view of a child.

576
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 1: I had wondered when you had mentioned the relatives coming

577
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 1: up to you after the book and saying, oh, it

578
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: sounds like you're trying to justify it. Do you think

579
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 1: because there is some framing that there are people in

580
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 1: the community who were not kind to him, and it

581
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 1: sounds like, you know, he was doing some pretty odd things.

582
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 1: Not that being mean to someone is justified, but do

583
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 1: you think it's a little bit of a defense for

584
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 1: their family members who became his victims, or what's the

585
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 1: sense that you get from that this happened so long ago.

586
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: I mean we're talking about what eighty or seventy years ago.

587
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the people that are alive are grandchildren, grand nephews,

588
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 2: their two generations removed or three generations removed, and they've

589
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 2: sort of idolized these family members. You know, my uncle,

590
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 2: my grandfather, was a victim of this. He was this

591
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 2: kind of person. I don't know how you could, you know,

592
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 2: write something defending what Howard did. They don't have a

593
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 2: clear vision they worked there, They don't know, and I

594
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 2: certainly did not set out to blame the victims of victims' families.

595
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 2: It wasn't their fault. They couldn't possibly have known that

596
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 2: what was going on in Howard Unru's mind. So it

597
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 2: was walking a tightrope, like I almost felt like I

598
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 2: had to apologize. I'm sorry. I didn't need to tarnish

599
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 2: your family member's name, but I do need to tell

600
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 2: the story. And I spent a long time researching this.

601
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 2: This wasn't a quick thing like I'm going to spend

602
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 2: two months and then I'm going to write this book.

603
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 2: It took me years. I had to flush people out.

604
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 2: I had people calling me like, let me tell you

605
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 2: something because I was I was ten years old, and

606
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 2: I grew up on that block and I saw it all,

607
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 2: and I want to tell you exactly what happened, and

608
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 2: taking detailed notes from varying points of view about what

609
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 2: happened before, I came up with a version that I

610
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 2: thought was as close to the truth as I was

611
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 2: going to get. So I didn't take any of it lightly.

612
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 2: And I did feel a little bit guilty because the people,

613
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 2: maybe they didn't directly suffer because they weren't there, but

614
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 2: certainly generationally they suffered, you know, they heard it from

615
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 2: their parents, and I didn't want to diminish that. I

616
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 2: felt like I just had to tell the story.

617
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: What kind of treatment do you think that Howard got

618
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 1: at the psychiatric facility where he spent the rest of

619
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 1: his life.

620
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 2: It's interesting because Howard Henry did very well in any

621
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 2: kind of situation where he had a tremendous amount of structure.

622
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 2: He did extremely well in the military, He did extremely

623
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 2: well in the hospital. They said he was a model patient.

624
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 2: The only thing that I could find in terms of treatment,

625
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 2: they were treating him for schizophrenia. They were giving him

626
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 2: medication other than that group therapy, and that's it.

627
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 1: What about his younger brother, James, You said James was

628
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: just out of the picture. Is that what happened also

629
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 1: when he was in the psychiatric facility.

630
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, James kept himself separate from this for the rest

631
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 2: of his life. He was married, he had children, he

632
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 2: had grandchildren. I was able to interview one of his grandchildren.

633
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 2: But he was never seen visiting the hospital regularly or

634
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 2: associating himself with what happened. It was almost like he

635
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 2: wanted to separate himself from what happened as much as

636
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 2: possible and get some normalcy in light.

637
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 1: What do you think changed in the community because of

638
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 1: all of this. Is there any anything kind of like

639
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 1: practical more security or tougher you know, crackdown on guns

640
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 1: or what did you see as being sort of the

641
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 1: reverberations of what Howard Unrude did that day.

642
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 2: I was looking through newspaper articles. I found this newspaper

643
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 2: article in nineteen forty nine where Philadelphia was cracking down

644
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 2: because of this on gun control, and they were asking

645
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 2: people to turn in their guns. They were talking about legislation,

646
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 2: but in terms of practical things, I don't know that

647
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 2: anything changed in terms of gun control in the community.

648
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 2: I think in terms of the community a lot changed.

649
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 2: A lot of those people moved out, they moved to

650
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 2: the suburbs, which was happening anyway. People never felt safe.

651
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 2: That was the one thing that kept coming up is

652
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 2: if you lived in this very small town community where

653
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 2: everybody knows everybody is something like this has happened, then

654
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,359
Speaker 2: you never really know anybody at all. And we never

655
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 2: felt safe that We never trusted people. We were much

656
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 2: more wary. We locked our doors, we kept a closer

657
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 2: eye on what was happening with people. We were more suspicious.

658
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 1: You know. I mentioned my first book was set in

659
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty two in London after the war, and I

660
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:43,879
Speaker 1: remember writing that there were guns everywhere, specifically because servicemen

661
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 1: were coming home with guns. They were bringing home whatever

662
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 1: their service revolver, whatever their weapon was. Is that what

663
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,800
Speaker 1: happened in this case too? Were the amount of guns

664
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 1: available much more than they are now or far less?

665
00:34:57,880 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 1: Where was it?

666
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 2: I think a lot of servi smith came home with weapons. Now,

667
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:04,320
Speaker 2: the weapon that Howard used he did not bring home.

668
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 2: He used a Luger nine millimeter Luger. He did not

669
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 2: bring that home from Germany. He bought it in Philadelphia

670
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 2: at a sporting goods store thirty seven dollars and fifty cents.

671
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 1: How much did he talk about this once he was

672
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 1: fully institutionalized, He was there, he was doing therapy. Did

673
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 1: you get the impression that there was remorse or was

674
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 1: he capable of that?

675
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 2: The only thing that he said he regretted was that

676
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 2: he killed the children. He had no awareness that he

677
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,359
Speaker 2: had killed these children. He killed a ten year old,

678
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 2: a six year old, and a two year old. He

679
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 2: said he had no idea that he had killed these children.

680
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:41,919
Speaker 2: He was in a frenzy at that point. He did

681
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 2: have some remorse the other people. To the day he died,

682
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 2: he said he was angry that they stole his gate,

683
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 2: that he was fixated on his gate. They deserved it,

684
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 2: he said, some of them I didn't mean to kill,

685
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,239
Speaker 2: So if I could do it over, I would do

686
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:00,400
Speaker 2: it in a more organized ways. So made true. I

687
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,279
Speaker 2: got all the people that I wanted to get and

688
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 2: didn't kill the others.

689
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:05,760
Speaker 1: It's so interesting. You know. I have this other show

690
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 1: with Paul Holes called Buried Bones, and we talk about

691
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,720
Speaker 1: the perception of killers. And you know, when you were saying,

692
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,839
Speaker 1: I killed them over this gate, and it sounds like

693
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 1: such an odd thing, that can't be the trigger. But

694
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. Paul says this all the time. It

695
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 1: doesn't matter what we think was or was not the trigger.

696
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:29,239
Speaker 1: It's in his head. It's his perception of what reality

697
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,320
Speaker 1: is is that matters. And that's what's scary. It sounds

698
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:36,439
Speaker 1: like about Howard that day was. It was completely unpredictable.

699
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 1: I mean, something that seems really annoying and I know,

700
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:42,839
Speaker 1: built up, but in the grand scheme of life, including war,

701
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 1: kind of innocuous. Annoying but innocuous. But that obviously just

702
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 1: sent him over the edge.

703
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 2: I think the gig represented everything, represented what these people

704
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 2: had done to him, It represented his at time set

705
00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 2: creating a resolution to the situation. You know, he felt

706
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,879
Speaker 2: like he had solved all of his issues and here

707
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 2: it is again. They took my gate. And this was

708
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,879
Speaker 2: the biggest thing for me when I was researching who

709
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 2: took the gate? After he shot all these people, the

710
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 2: community was very angry at him, and it was in

711
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 2: the newspaper. The gate was returned two days after the

712
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:24,240
Speaker 2: shootings complete. Now this gate was just like wood frame

713
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 2: with wire, wasn't any kind of sophisticated gate. But it

714
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 2: reappeared two days later, pole and intact, leaning up against

715
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 2: that hole. So I was so fixated by this, like

716
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 2: somebody took this gate and felt guilty and brought it back.

717
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,839
Speaker 2: Why would they bring it back? Who took the gate?

718
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 2: Did the community know who took the gate? So I

719
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 2: was on this whole search to find out who stole

720
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,879
Speaker 2: the gate? Who stole this gate? Charles Cohen, the twelve

721
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:51,800
Speaker 2: year old boy that survived in the apartment of the

722
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 2: neighbor's apartment. Later in nineteen eighty two, he was interviewed

723
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 2: and he said that the boys that live directly behind them,

724
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 2: there were three boys the Harry family had said they

725
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 2: had taken the gate. Now, whether they did or not,

726
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 2: I don't know if they did. They certainly did it

727
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 2: as a prank. I don't think they could ever envision

728
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 2: that all this would happen. But I can only imagine

729
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 2: the guilt of that purse living with that it was

730
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 2: a prank. We were just joking on him. We had

731
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 2: no idea, and now thirteen people are dead.

732
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 1: Well, you have to think if it weren't that, it

733
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 1: was going to be something. I mean, he was really

734
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:26,799
Speaker 1: building to something. It couldn't have been just the gate.

735
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:29,879
Speaker 2: No, you're right, it was spiraling. I don't know would

736
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 2: have happened. I don't know. Maybe less people would have died,

737
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:34,279
Speaker 2: maybe more people would have died. It would have been

738
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 2: over something. Because he was increasingly paranoid. There was no resolution.

739
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 2: You know. Somebody asked me, why do you think this happened,

740
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 2: and I said it happened because he had failed as

741
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,400
Speaker 2: a man in every way that you can possibly fail

742
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 2: in nineteen forty nine, as the man, he was never

743
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:50,799
Speaker 2: going to get married and have children. He couldn't get

744
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:54,879
Speaker 2: a job and support himself. He had no community around him.

745
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,359
Speaker 2: He was isolated and he saw no way out. And

746
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:00,839
Speaker 2: maybe this was his way out because he was very

747
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 2: content after this happened, and he was in the hospital

748
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 2: because he had a place to be and he had

749
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 2: structure around him, and nothing was expected. So you're right,

750
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 2: I think this would have happened. Something would have happened eventual.

751
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 1: Did he have a relationship in the hospital. Do you

752
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 1: know anything about what his personal life was like? Uh?

753
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,840
Speaker 2: They said he had like crushes on other male patients,

754
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 2: but nothing that I could find to substantiate. But what

755
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:27,320
Speaker 2: was interesting is he made a friend. It was very curious.

756
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 2: Later it was an older man named Harry Roselle that

757
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:32,319
Speaker 2: come to visit him, who was also in the war,

758
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 2: and they had a very nice friendship to the end

759
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 2: of Howard's life. They would send cards and letters. Harry

760
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 2: rosell would bring his grandson to visit him. Its white.

761
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 2: He was very connected in that way. It was an

762
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 2: interesting friendship.

763
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 1: Now, you had mentioned in your book something that I

764
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 1: thought was interesting that I'm hoping we can tell it's

765
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 1: not a parallel story, but something happens. Is it to

766
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 1: Raymond's family member later on that just seems very similar

767
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:01,320
Speaker 1: to this a story that's from your book.

768
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,959
Speaker 2: So it wasn't Rain. It was Charles Cohen, the twelve

769
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 2: year old son of Rose Poween and Grace Cohen were

770
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 2: both filled that day Charles Cohen got married. He had

771
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 2: three daughters. His one daughter, Mary was living in Florida,

772
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 2: and their daughter, Charley Novelle went to Parkland and I

773
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:24,799
Speaker 2: got to interview her. It was very hard. I had

774
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 2: to go through her grandmother and she finally granted me

775
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 2: an interview, and it's one of the most painful interviews

776
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 2: I've ever done. She's so traumatized, she has such PTSD

777
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 2: from this. But she did talk about the parallel that

778
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 2: she's in this closet. She's hiding in a closet. Now,

779
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 2: the way that Carkland was set up, it isn't one

780
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,320
Speaker 2: big school building. They were separate building, so she wasn't

781
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,839
Speaker 2: in the building shooter was because she could hear the

782
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 2: noise and they were all in the closet together, and

783
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 2: she was thinking, my grandfather was in this very same

784
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 2: circumstance seventy years ago, hiding in a closet while his

785
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 2: whole family was being butcher and here I am in

786
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:06,919
Speaker 2: this closet hearing this gunfire and people dying around her.

787
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 2: It is very, very traumatic for her.

788
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,840
Speaker 1: It must have just been awful for her parents. Considering,

789
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 1: of course, the background.

790
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 2: It's very very traumatic for them, and there the whole

791
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 2: family's very involved in gun control movements and victims' rights,

792
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,319
Speaker 2: and they do a tremendous amount of work. That interview

793
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 2: I can't even tell you. I think it took place

794
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 2: over two days, and the grandmother said, please be careful

795
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 2: with her. She's very fragile and just trying to get

796
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:36,840
Speaker 2: the piece of the story of what happened and connected

797
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:40,400
Speaker 2: to what happened seventy years before, you know, to the

798
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:42,360
Speaker 2: same family. It's just amazing.

799
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 1: Do you get also a lot of feedback, flack or

800
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 1: otherwise based on gun control, since this is a shooting

801
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:52,760
Speaker 1: spree story involving, you know, guns, Do you hear anything

802
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 1: about that from that side?

803
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:56,920
Speaker 2: I believe this gentleman was from the South because he

804
00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 2: called me a yank. He's like, I had to read

805
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 2: this book because I had to see what a Yankee

806
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:04,760
Speaker 2: and a British publisher would do with this shooting story.

807
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 2: But he said, I thought you did a pretty fair

808
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 2: balanced job.

809
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 1: So your experience as a therapist at a maximum security

810
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:16,839
Speaker 1: penitentiary must give you insight, you know, on this sort

811
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 1: of story. You must have interviewed so many people who

812
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 1: were incarcerated. I just think I need to know what

813
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 1: the context is, what exactly happens with you.

814
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 2: It's so interesting because in the course of my whole career,

815
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:32,719
Speaker 2: I can only count on one hand anybody that took

816
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:36,359
Speaker 2: accountability for anything they did. Okay, most of the people

817
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 2: that would come in and they had committed these horrific crimes,

818
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 2: it was all really about them and about how you know,

819
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:45,400
Speaker 2: they were being held against their will and they weren't

820
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:47,719
Speaker 2: getting the treatment they deserved and what was going to

821
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:51,280
Speaker 2: happen and legal counsel, and none of them expressed any

822
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 2: concern at all about the victims. Were about what they

823
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,840
Speaker 2: had done, or they had excuses. So it's very interesting

824
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,880
Speaker 2: to sit and interview somebody like that, let them tell

825
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:03,959
Speaker 2: their story about the way their mind is working, having

826
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 2: zero feeling for anybody else. And I think that in

827
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 2: some ways Howard Unruy was a sociopath. I think he was.

828
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:13,320
Speaker 2: I don't think he had a whole lot of feeling

829
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:15,280
Speaker 2: for any of the victims of the people to be killed.

830
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 1: So you didn't get that impression at all that he

831
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 1: had any sort of remorse, or maybe he was unable

832
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 1: to process it. If he really had a mental illness.

833
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 2: He never, in all of his interviews expressed any remorse

834
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:29,239
Speaker 2: for any of the victims, except for children. He just

835
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:31,439
Speaker 2: kind of kept justifying what he did because they took

836
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 2: my gate. You know, they made it difficult for me.

837
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:36,200
Speaker 2: They talked about me behind my back.

838
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 1: It's interesting because this shooting feels premeditated, but not at

839
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,839
Speaker 1: all premeditated. It was like he snapped because of the gate,

840
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 1: but then he waited for the most amount of people

841
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 1: to show up. So it's both, which I find really interesting.

842
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 2: He started out, yes, he calculated the whole thing. He waited,

843
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 2: he wanted the shops to be opened, did it in

844
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 2: the order in which he thought he could get the

845
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 2: people that wanted to get the ro his list, He

846
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,879
Speaker 2: actually had a list, but he's spiral at some point,

847
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:06,239
Speaker 2: and you can see exactly when he spiral and it

848
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 2: changed from a very calculated hit to a shooting spree

849
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 2: where he didn't care who would he killed.

850
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:15,919
Speaker 1: What do you think the differences between spree killers and

851
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,239
Speaker 1: you know, we talk about multiple murderers. You know, there

852
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 1: are people mass murderers, but the spree killer, I think

853
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 1: for me, is the most mysterious. I don't understand it.

854
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 1: Maybe what the goal is, but it sounds like it's

855
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 1: a It was a release for him of just so

856
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:35,799
Speaker 1: much anger that then gets out of control. Because it's

857
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 1: interesting when you say you could see when he loses control.

858
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 1: And of course the first thing I was thinking was

859
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 1: I thought he lost control when he killed the Cohens.

860
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:46,239
Speaker 1: But now I see the difference between calculated and just

861
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 1: sort of shoot anything that moves.

862
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:52,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly when he started, he did not shoot children,

863
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 2: He didn't shoot Raymond. You can see when he spiraled

864
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 2: and he didn't care anymore. And the spree shooters, if

865
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:01,360
Speaker 2: you look at the case by case, the similarity is

866
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:03,960
Speaker 2: they feel like they don't fit in. They don't fit in,

867
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 2: they don't have a place in society, and they're extremely angry.

868
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 2: So they're angry is not centered on one person or

869
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:12,279
Speaker 2: one incident or I'm going to get this person back

870
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 2: because they might eate. It's about everybody. It's about how

871
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 2: they retreated. And I think the essence of it is

872
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 2: feeling like they don't fit in, they don't have a

873
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 2: place in society. There is no place for them to go.

874
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 2: And the same for Howard Unger, there was no place

875
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 2: for him to go in society and that small town

876
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 2: there was no way for him to be able to function.

877
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:32,239
Speaker 2: So you know it all comes down to that. I

878
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 2: think of just feeling there is no place and I'm

879
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:36,320
Speaker 2: going to get everybody back.

880
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 1: So ultimately, what is his ending? We know that he

881
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 1: ends up dying in the psychiatric facility, right he did.

882
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 2: He died in a psychiatric facility. And interestingly, Charles Cohen,

883
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,920
Speaker 2: the twelve year old boy, had this family go to

884
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 2: the hearings and kept thinking, eventually, this man is going

885
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 2: to die and I'm going to spit on his grave

886
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:58,359
Speaker 2: and this is going to be over. But it didn't

887
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:01,400
Speaker 2: work out that way. Charles Cohn died first and was

888
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:05,239
Speaker 2: buried on the same day as the anniversary of the massacre.

889
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 2: He was buried on September sixth, and Howard unru outlived

890
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:11,920
Speaker 2: him by I think a month. He lived the rest

891
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 2: of his life in relative peace. He was moved to

892
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:19,279
Speaker 2: a geriatric wing, he was involved in gardening. If you

893
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 2: look at the whole picture, Howard Unrebout exactly what he wanted.

894
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:25,359
Speaker 2: He lived out his life in peace, with structure, with

895
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:29,840
Speaker 2: no expectations, and really suffered not at all for what

896
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 2: he did, and the murder indictments were dropped. In nineteen

897
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:36,719
Speaker 2: eighty he filed emotion saying he's denied a speedy trial

898
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:40,440
Speaker 2: or upheld it, and so the indictments were dropped and

899
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 2: Charles Cohen was living. He said, what are you saying?

900
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 2: My grandmother didn't die, my mother didn't die, my father

901
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 2: didn't die. He's never going to be brought to justice.

902
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 1: I asked you this earlier, and we'll kind of end

903
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 1: on this. What has the lesson learned from this story?

904
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,720
Speaker 1: Do you think in the age where we are now,

905
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:00,720
Speaker 1: what do we take from the story of how unruined

906
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 1: his victims.

907
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:07,080
Speaker 2: It sounds so idealistic, but I think other than gun control,

908
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 2: which I think is obvious to make sure that guns

909
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 2: don't get into the hands of people that have mental

910
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:16,400
Speaker 2: illness or have psychiatric issues, I think that we've become

911
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:19,759
Speaker 2: so separated as a society that people aren't clusters, and

912
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 2: we're not aware that people are being left out, that

913
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:25,400
Speaker 2: they're isolated, that they don't have any And it's interesting

914
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 2: in the age of the Internet, you think everybody would

915
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,360
Speaker 2: have some sort of you know, connection or resources, but

916
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,319
Speaker 2: they don't. It's almost like we're becoming more isolated. And

917
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 2: if you look at the people to commit these shootings,

918
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 2: they all have similar patterns where they were left out,

919
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 2: they were bullied, they were isolated, they were not included,

920
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:45,360
Speaker 2: and the anger built up. And now it's worse. Because

921
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 2: of the Internet. There's these pockets of hate and they

922
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:50,440
Speaker 2: can feed into it and find an avenue for it.

923
00:47:50,520 --> 00:48:05,480
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, if you love historical true crime stories, check out

924
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:08,399
Speaker 1: the audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All

925
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 1: That Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and Don't Forget. There

926
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:15,440
Speaker 1: are twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast, Tenfold

927
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:19,279
Speaker 1: More Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back

928
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 1: and give them a listen if you haven't already. This

929
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 1: has been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is

930
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:30,279
Speaker 1: Alexis M. Morosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This

931
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 1: episode was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer,

932
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:39,240
Speaker 1: artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen

933
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:43,759
Speaker 1: Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram at

934
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:48,320
Speaker 1: Tenfold More Wicked and on Facebook at Wicked Words Pod.