Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind somehow stuff works
Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, we're gonna stuff to blow your mind.
Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas. We've
Speaker 1: talked a bit about trust on here for about hormones,
Speaker 1: about oxytocin, because you know, we're always big into talking
Speaker 1: about what are the what are the scientific reasons for
Speaker 1: all these surface levels of interaction for all though the
Speaker 1: ways that we we feel, the ways that we behave
Speaker 1: like what's what's making us tick? And oxytocin often comes
Speaker 1: up in terms of trust, in terms of love, in
Speaker 1: terms of emotional connections. So it was probably a bit
Speaker 1: too much for us to think, or for anyone to
Speaker 1: to get the idea that this is just a purely
Speaker 1: positive thing, that there's something in the human body and
Speaker 1: our in all of our the machinery that under lies
Speaker 1: who we are, that there's one substance that's just nothing
Speaker 1: but feel good in a jar. It's not the platonic ideal.
Speaker 1: And if anything, this, this idea that oxytocin could have
Speaker 1: a dark side, is just more evidence of dud the
Speaker 1: duality of things right, And we've talked about oxytocin really
Speaker 1: in terms of cuddling and hugging. Um, that whole idea
Speaker 1: that if you wrap someone in an embrace for twenty
Speaker 1: seconds or more, that you're giving them just the right
Speaker 1: amount of pressure that your body will actually begin to
Speaker 1: produce oxytocin. Now, I want anybody like that idea, and
Speaker 1: I think it's great. Totally in favor of twenty second
Speaker 1: hugs all right, But between consending adults, we yes, we
Speaker 1: will this sort of like hug pile up hug club thing.
Speaker 1: I'm not behind by the way, um, but we will
Speaker 1: revisit this idea later as we talk about the dark
Speaker 1: side of oxytocin. So where do we get this, this
Speaker 1: idea that's that oxytocin is the super feel good a drug.
Speaker 1: The thing is, we can kind of we can kind
Speaker 1: of lay this at one individual's feet for the most part.
Speaker 1: One uh one one doctor love one love doctor uh
Speaker 1: an individual who you've seen on TED talks up there
Speaker 1: with his microphone preaching the word of oxytocin and making
Speaker 1: a very compelling argument. As individuals who give TED talks,
Speaker 1: at least the more recent ones, often do you totally
Speaker 1: buy into it? And you're like, yes, the feel good hormone,
Speaker 1: the mother hormone, the hug hormone, the kiss hormone. Let
Speaker 1: me have some of that. Yeah, and we'll talk about
Speaker 1: Dr Paul Zack ak the love doctor, in a moment.
Speaker 1: But I wanted just to mention the oxytocin is an
Speaker 1: extract from the human posterior pituitary gland, and it was
Speaker 1: discovered in nineteen o nine when the British pharmacologists or
Speaker 1: Henry H. Dale, found that it could contract the uterus
Speaker 1: of a pregnant cat. And of course that's another way
Speaker 1: in which oxytocin shows up right, not just in cuddling
Speaker 1: or um, you know, acts of love making, but also experiments,
Speaker 1: cat experimentation and basically mammalian birth right um. According to
Speaker 1: Ed Young, though, we have taken oxytocin as as the
Speaker 1: sort of panacea for all ills, and we'll talk more
Speaker 1: about that with regards to Paul Zack. But I didn't
Speaker 1: want to say that the hormone is found in everything
Speaker 1: from octopuses to sheep, and it's evolutionary roots stretched back
Speaker 1: a half a billion years, and for decades, animal studies
Speaker 1: have shown the oxytocin is important for social interactions. So
Speaker 1: for example, if you block the hormone UM, monogamous vowles
Speaker 1: will actually become more promiscuous and use neglect their newborn
Speaker 1: lambs if they don't have access to that oxytocin. So
Speaker 1: you could see how it would be informing our ideas
Speaker 1: of UM connection, bonding, love, and and even in the
Speaker 1: whole sort of birth and death cycle that we have
Speaker 1: these notions about how we go along here in society. Yeah,
Speaker 1: all these social animal interactions that we in evitably have,
Speaker 1: all of these additional emotional layers that we wrap up
Speaker 1: in as humans. Uh. At the scene of each crime,
Speaker 1: oxytocin so like that's the thread that runs through all
Speaker 1: of them. So of course we end up focusing on that,
Speaker 1: and then as it's reported and championed it uh, it
Speaker 1: increasingly becomes seen as this magical feel good elixir that
Speaker 1: it flows through us. You're right, because there are accounts
Speaker 1: of being released when you tweet something UM and you dance. Yes,
Speaker 1: you know, It's just it shows up everywhere. And I
Speaker 1: think that is what some researchers will say is the
Speaker 1: problem is that people are looking more at the results
Speaker 1: and not necessarily looking at the chemical and why it
Speaker 1: is produced. Um. So again, let's let's talk about Paul
Speaker 1: Zack though, because he kind of is the guy that
Speaker 1: you have to point to who at least brought this
Speaker 1: idea of oxytocin as this utopian chemical to a lot
Speaker 1: of people's imaginations. Yeah, he's an American neuro economist and
Speaker 1: he even refers to himself as doctor Love. So he
Speaker 1: really presses this idea that that that not only is
Speaker 1: it at the root of all these uh uh, these
Speaker 1: positive social interactions, but that it can or at least
Speaker 1: has the potential to change the world, that it can
Speaker 1: be used almost offensively for the social betterment of the
Speaker 1: human race. Now, he actually even calls it the morality
Speaker 1: chemical because of some of his studies that he did.
Speaker 1: Many different variations on, by the way, but the basic
Speaker 1: premises that there's something called the trust game, and this
Speaker 1: is when a person player one, is given some money
Speaker 1: and told to send a portion of it to the
Speaker 1: second person who is player too. Now player two has
Speaker 1: a one off choice to either accept or reject the proposal,
Speaker 1: and if Player to rejects, then neither one of them
Speaker 1: get any money whatsoever. But if player to accepts, the
Speaker 1: money is split according to the proposal. So again, here's
Speaker 1: this idea that you know, there's some sort of morality
Speaker 1: in in um generosity at play here, and typically a
Speaker 1: low offer less than a third of the player's initial
Speaker 1: endowment UM is rejected as stingy, ensuring that both players
Speaker 1: getting are getting nothing. And that's where that sort of
Speaker 1: morality comes into, because even though someone is offering another
Speaker 1: person in a certain amount of money, if you if
Speaker 1: I offer you ten cents, you might be like, what,
Speaker 1: in no way, that's not enough. I'm not even gonna
Speaker 1: take it, and then neither one of us get anything.
Speaker 1: So when Zach tested the blood of players who had
Speaker 1: demonstrated trustworthy behavior, he found that their oxytocin levels had
Speaker 1: increased in proportion to the monetary transfer. And he did
Speaker 1: this again and again um, as I said, just with
Speaker 1: different scenarios, getting more and more philanthropic. Right, So, sometimes
Speaker 1: sometimes players would give to UM a third party and
Speaker 1: they would begin to see these spikes again an oxytocin
Speaker 1: and the act of their generosity. And so he's sitting
Speaker 1: there making this case that perhaps just the presence of
Speaker 1: oxytocin could be enough to change the way that we
Speaker 1: operate in the world. Right, and as no surprise, as
Speaker 1: though we're looking at some links yesterday, you can go
Speaker 1: on Amazon and you can buy oxytocin. You can buy
Speaker 1: there's one called liquid Trust that that doesn't sound creepy
Speaker 1: at all. It's in a spray canister, um, so that
Speaker 1: you can make people trust you supposedly. UM. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I haven't tried the product, but my guess is that
Speaker 1: it doesn't work. The reviews seem to think it didn't work.
Speaker 1: Now I have it just being piped into the air
Speaker 1: dex Here no evidence that anybody is getting any more
Speaker 1: generous with their sandwiches. So one one of the things
Speaker 1: that we're gonna get into the particulars of this. But
Speaker 1: I think that the route here is that that it's
Speaker 1: that that oxytocin ends up being presented as this, uh,
Speaker 1: this positive hormone, as this emotional hormone, is this morality
Speaker 1: hormone when it's in a sense it is. It is
Speaker 1: a social hormone, and it is it definitely isn'tvolved in
Speaker 1: different social interactions. But are all social interactions positive? No, not,
Speaker 1: not in the animal world, not in the human world.
Speaker 1: And even the emotional responses in the human world that
Speaker 1: we see as positive. When you strip them away and
Speaker 1: you start looking at how they work as an organism,
Speaker 1: you see just how much human bs is involved there.
Speaker 1: You know, you can easily make the make the the
Speaker 1: the argument that this whole hormonal rush and the attachment
Speaker 1: been in the bond between between parent and child. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's just about the organism surviving just gets down to
Speaker 1: the root genetic mission that in and of itself is
Speaker 1: completely devoid of love and understanding. All right, we're gonna
Speaker 1: get to the bottom of this of the much more
Speaker 1: nuanced versioning understanding that we are having of oxytocin in
Speaker 1: a moment. But let's take a quick break. All right,
Speaker 1: we're back. Let's talk about C twoson and how actually
Speaker 1: has been showing up in studies is taking on a
Speaker 1: far different role um talking about envy and schaden freud. Yes,
Speaker 1: now in they of course we've discussed in detail. We
Speaker 1: did a whole episode about it during our exploration of
Speaker 1: the Seven Deadly sin in the is is when you
Speaker 1: you see something that you want, or you see something
Speaker 1: in another person and you maybe you don't even want it,
Speaker 1: but you just sort of detest that. It's there you
Speaker 1: might even just want to destroy it. But but you
Speaker 1: have this intense negative response to something in somebody else
Speaker 1: or off somebody else, And then there's schaden freud. But
Speaker 1: that's when something unfortunate happens to another person inside you
Speaker 1: sort of celebrate when you see or hear about it, right, yes,
Speaker 1: which is it's not a great emotion, right, but all
Speaker 1: of this at some point or another have probably experienced it.
Speaker 1: Who doesn't like to see their friends fail every now
Speaker 1: and then, just just to feel a little better. But
Speaker 1: it could be in front of me, right, Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think, and that's probably I bet, I bet that
Speaker 1: if you had some sort of widespread study on this,
Speaker 1: you'd probably see it's more in front of me than enemy, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: because your enemy, you know, that's because it's I feel
Speaker 1: like part of the schaden freud a situation is that
Speaker 1: you feel good about it, but you also feel bad
Speaker 1: about it, like you know, you're not supposed to feel it. Well,
Speaker 1: you don't only feel schaden freud about you know, a
Speaker 1: bitter enemy, uh, you know, falling in defeat. That's more
Speaker 1: just you know, the pure victory of overcoming your adversaries. Well,
Speaker 1: that might be a clue as to why oxytocin plays
Speaker 1: a part in shane freud, because if you think about it,
Speaker 1: as you said, oxytocin is really the social hormone. If
Speaker 1: you feel closer to someone that you know, then perhaps
Speaker 1: you're not going to dwell in that arena of emotions.
Speaker 1: So I wanted to point out that Simone Chamai to
Speaker 1: Sourcie at the University of Haifa and Israel showed that
Speaker 1: as well as promoting trust and generosity, oxytocin can heighten
Speaker 1: feelings of envy and shaden freud. This is in the
Speaker 1: journal Biological Psychiatry. When volunteers played a gambling game, those
Speaker 1: who inhaled the hormone gloated more when they beat other players.
Speaker 1: They also reported more acute stubs of jealousy and when
Speaker 1: the tables were turned. Okay, now that gets us into
Speaker 1: more of this again social construct here, and you think
Speaker 1: about how we treat one another and how we are
Speaker 1: sometimes biased when we make decisions because of the relationships
Speaker 1: we have with people. Yeah, I mean everywhere you go
Speaker 1: in human culture, obviously they're all these divisions, their divisions
Speaker 1: of race, their divisions of of economic status, of show
Speaker 1: social status, of of your status in a working environment,
Speaker 1: all these these barriers come into play, and in many
Speaker 1: cases artificial barriers that are just purely social inform but
Speaker 1: you end up with all these different packs or tribes.
Speaker 1: And we've seen this again and again that even if
Speaker 1: two people are in a room and they have something
Speaker 1: in common is say, the same shut on or the
Speaker 1: same color, they tend to just subconsciously feel more connected
Speaker 1: to that person. So the link can be so tenuous,
Speaker 1: and yet we make that connection Oh I have that
Speaker 1: shirt or oh you like that band as well, Yeah,
Speaker 1: because on some level we want to we want to
Speaker 1: project our own feelings onto that person and believe that
Speaker 1: they're like us. That's all. We have icebreakers. So I
Speaker 1: know everyone hates icebreakers, but if if one stupid game
Speaker 1: of ice breaking trust falls or passing notes around, if
Speaker 1: that can prevent one office X murder, then I say
Speaker 1: go for it absolutely. And actually, as an aside, since
Speaker 1: we just did an episode on vulnerability, that's a good
Speaker 1: example of when you show your vulnerability, you show yourself
Speaker 1: and there's more of a commonality there. But Caroline, the
Speaker 1: clerk of the University of Antwerp in Belgium, she found
Speaker 1: that people under the hormones influence became more cooperative with
Speaker 1: one another only if they have some information about their partner.
Speaker 1: That when they were paired with an anonymous stranger, they
Speaker 1: became less cooperative. Now that was some real insight, because again,
Speaker 1: oxytocin has been touted as this this bonding agent. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like something that's just breaking down barriers. You pump it
Speaker 1: into a room and uh and two bitter enemies are
Speaker 1: just gonna embrace in a hug. Not so, because our
Speaker 1: social interactions are also about divisions. It's I mean from
Speaker 1: a just an evolutionary standpoint. I mean, think to that
Speaker 1: scene in two thousand and one, uh, Space Odyssey where
Speaker 1: you know, it's tribes of monkeys beating each other up
Speaker 1: with with bones and that social interaction, and and no
Speaker 1: doubt there was there was a little oxytocin involved in
Speaker 1: that situation. Not that that actually happened. I'm not I'm
Speaker 1: not of the mind that that seemed involved actual apes
Speaker 1: killing each other. Well, I think the problem too is
Speaker 1: that people when they looked at Paul's acts work, and
Speaker 1: he was a big proponent of oxytosin and basically saying like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: they're there in the London riots. If only, you know,
Speaker 1: people weren't high on their testos room and they were
Speaker 1: high on oxytocin, that wouldn't have happened. People said, no,
Speaker 1: that's that's a cultural thing that that went on. It
Speaker 1: had to do with economics, that had to do with
Speaker 1: um education. There were there's so many different factors involved there.
Speaker 1: And Paul Za kept saying, well, no, I don't think so,
Speaker 1: because because our results are coming from the chemicals which
Speaker 1: are measurable in the blood, and that's far more accurate
Speaker 1: than say, fuzzy images from a brain scan, we think
Speaker 1: that there's more hard evidence. But he, you know, I
Speaker 1: don't think that he or some of the researchers at
Speaker 1: that time really took into account the cultural aspects. And
Speaker 1: I wanted to mention that he's young. Kim of the
Speaker 1: University of California and Santa Barbara found that in South Korea,
Speaker 1: where it's usually a faux pas to sort of burden
Speaker 1: your friends with any of your problems, he found that
Speaker 1: people who were certain carriers of this gene um how
Speaker 1: to to explain this, We've talked about this before. Actually,
Speaker 1: there are some people who have an a variant of
Speaker 1: this gene and some people have a G variant and
Speaker 1: basically it helps doc the oxytocin. So you you know
Speaker 1: the receptors. You're gonna have much more oxytocin flowing through
Speaker 1: you if you have this G variant. Okay, So this
Speaker 1: is where we get into the people who are genetically huggers. Us.
Speaker 1: We're talking about this hug acts. People are hugging all
Speaker 1: the time. They might be needing a fix because there
Speaker 1: they really like that oxytocin. Well, what this researcher found
Speaker 1: is that, um, the people who are the hug junkies,
Speaker 1: or who should be the hug junkies, actually solace far
Speaker 1: less than they're they're non caring variants, and that at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, it's it's the social trait,
Speaker 1: it's the social sensitivity, and it's not you know, this
Speaker 1: idea that you're responding to oxytocin is not determined by
Speaker 1: biology but by culture. And here's a good example of
Speaker 1: people who are acting in a certain way even though
Speaker 1: biologically you should say, ah, yeah, those are the people
Speaker 1: who are going to seek solace most often. Now, of course,
Speaker 1: mindset plays a huge role here as well, and we
Speaker 1: look at the research from Jennifer Bart's from the Mount
Speaker 1: Sinai School of Medicine, if you found several responses that
Speaker 1: depend on a person's minds, that showed that socially secure
Speaker 1: people remember mothers in a more positive light after inhaling oxytocin,
Speaker 1: while anxious ones remember their mothers as less caring and
Speaker 1: more distant. So in that brief example, you can see
Speaker 1: how the oxytocin YES is having it's having effect on
Speaker 1: the individual, but it kind of depends on the mindset,
Speaker 1: the existing wiring or the existing plumbing when you when
Speaker 1: you pump this stuff in, YES actually show the oxytocin
Speaker 1: hinders hinders trust and cooperation among people with borderline personality disorder.
Speaker 1: So again it cannot be at this reductionist like you
Speaker 1: just give someone some oxytocin and they're going to cooperate.
Speaker 1: You can't just get that bottle of liquid trust and
Speaker 1: just start hosing people down thinking that it's going to
Speaker 1: universally have this positive effect on the right because you
Speaker 1: have the cultural aspect to it, and then you just
Speaker 1: have the mindsets um So some people actually may act
Speaker 1: in ways that are counter intuitive to the whole social
Speaker 1: bonding situation, and that brings up this question of why
Speaker 1: why would oxytocin act in those various ways, And much
Speaker 1: of that is still a miss free but there are
Speaker 1: a couple of theories. So back to Bart's now, she
Speaker 1: would say that the key to understanding what the hormone
Speaker 1: does is really in talking about its function rather how
Speaker 1: and where it shows up. And there are a couple
Speaker 1: of theories out there. Oxytocin could help reduce anxiety and fear,
Speaker 1: or it could simply motivate people to seek out social connections,
Speaker 1: which would account for a rise and trust and cooperation
Speaker 1: in some people, but also explain why oxytocin sniffers gravitate
Speaker 1: towards others resembling themselves, and why people who fear social
Speaker 1: rejection are not necessarily better off with more of the hormone.
Speaker 1: So if you have anxiety in someone and uh, they
Speaker 1: get a dose of oxytocin and they they're they're fear
Speaker 1: arousal is heightened, then that's just sort of playing to
Speaker 1: what they're already experiencing right now and helping them to
Speaker 1: what they think battle is. You know, these these uh threats,
Speaker 1: We're gonna take one more quick break and when we
Speaker 1: come back more on this exciting topic. So what is
Speaker 1: this this all pointing towards towards pointies work The obvious
Speaker 1: that oxytocin is not a magic bullet. It's not something
Speaker 1: that you can put in a can spraying somebody's face
Speaker 1: and it's going to fix whatever is ailing them. But
Speaker 1: and as we're saying that it's there are plenty of
Speaker 1: studies going on right now. I think what forty different
Speaker 1: clinical studies are currently ongoing about oxytocin, and and they're
Speaker 1: exploring it with a more nuanced understanding for the most
Speaker 1: part of what oxytocin is. So we're hoping to to
Speaker 1: get to get a better understanding of how it works
Speaker 1: and how and how it is engaging in all these
Speaker 1: these show social interactions and there's the possibility that we
Speaker 1: will learn how to better treat certain conditions with oxytopes
Speaker 1: right Like, a lot of these clinical trials are looking
Speaker 1: at autism and schizophrenia because the idea is if you
Speaker 1: if you give a child who is autistic a dose
Speaker 1: of this, that perhaps he or she will heighten their
Speaker 1: ability to connect to bond, which is one of the
Speaker 1: things that when you look at the autism spectrum. There's
Speaker 1: there's sometimes a lack of that um. But researchers are saying,
Speaker 1: don't go online and get the spray. First of all,
Speaker 1: the concentrations aren't going to be enough to to really
Speaker 1: do anything. And second of all, if you look at
Speaker 1: these other findings that say that it can unheighten um,
Speaker 1: you know, this, this envy, this schiden freud um, these
Speaker 1: other sort of antisocial aspects of it, were not certain
Speaker 1: how that's going to play out with people who might
Speaker 1: have autism or schizophrenia. So, you know, let the let
Speaker 1: the research continue on that so that they can get
Speaker 1: a better picture of it. Yeah, because it is a
Speaker 1: large extent the each individual's wiring, each individual's plumbing is
Speaker 1: a little different and sometimes dramatically different depending on what's
Speaker 1: going on there neurologically. So spraying one person down with
Speaker 1: oxytose and spring another one down potentially vastly different effects.
Speaker 1: So yeah, and you know, and I say, do you
Speaker 1: not try at home? And I do understand how in
Speaker 1: one level sort of disappointing because of its associations with
Speaker 1: all the sort of kitten and rainbows um existence, you know, childbirth,
Speaker 1: breast milk production, cuddling, but you know, it's a chemical
Speaker 1: and it's it's far more complex, and we, above everything,
Speaker 1: we want science to give us these silver bullets they
Speaker 1: want to We want science to say, here's the vaccine
Speaker 1: for this, here is the treatment that fixes this, Here
Speaker 1: is a is another way that we can address something
Speaker 1: that is wrong with an individual or even with us
Speaker 1: as a species. Well, yeah, I was gonna say, I
Speaker 1: wasn't actually gonna bring this up, but you and I
Speaker 1: have talked about this before. Ted. The conference has come
Speaker 1: under fire sometimes because it it does deliver these big
Speaker 1: ideas and sort of silver bullets, you know, solutions, and
Speaker 1: some people have said that it can be sort of
Speaker 1: reductionist in that way, and Paul Zacks Ted talk is
Speaker 1: really great and it is really uplifting, but at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, it's it's you know, humanity is
Speaker 1: much messier than that. So there you have it. Oxytocin.
Speaker 1: We've covered it before. Now we've covered a little more,
Speaker 1: and at this time we've we've we've added a little
Speaker 1: darkness to our discussions of it. So so take that
Speaker 1: with you as you as you observe yourself either engaging
Speaker 1: in a twenty second hug or feeling the seething envy
Speaker 1: as you look at your friends in your Facebook feed.
Speaker 1: You know what I'm going as for Halloween? What are
Speaker 1: you going in? An aggressive oxytocin hugger. See doesn't that
Speaker 1: totally recast your idea of hugging? Now? Yeah? Yeah, like
Speaker 1: a like a junkie, like I just name a fix
Speaker 1: and a fix and I am the everybody else who
Speaker 1: gets the hugs and I don't. There was a reason
Speaker 1: we hugged. There's a recent skit on Key and Peel
Speaker 1: where it's where there's a baseball player that truly into
Speaker 1: slapping other baseball players butts and uh and he ends
Speaker 1: at the end of the other baseball players on the
Speaker 1: team tell him, no, we just we don't want you
Speaker 1: to slapper butts anymore. Um, you just do it way
Speaker 1: too much and you're just way too into it and uh.
Speaker 1: And at the end of the episode, he's like a
Speaker 1: he's he's like a junkie with withdrawals, just asking you know,
Speaker 1: for one more slap, to one more butt uh and
Speaker 1: and and you know it's silly and goofy, but but really,
Speaker 1: I mean a social interaction like slapping a teammates, but
Speaker 1: there's invariably oxytocin involved there, and if one is a
Speaker 1: type but slapper, then then the situation is very akin
Speaker 1: to an addict. So so I think I'm gonna create
Speaker 1: these sort of blow up arms that really create a
Speaker 1: vice gript around people for they can't escape, and maybe
Speaker 1: a little countdown clock so after twenty seconds they can escape, Yeah,
Speaker 1: or you can just shout the countdown like right in
Speaker 1: their years. If you I'm going to be the most
Speaker 1: popular person at the party. Yeah, all right, So there
Speaker 1: you have it, the darkness of oxytocin. We'll let us
Speaker 1: know how this information incorporates in your understanding of your
Speaker 1: own life or the lives of those around you. We're
Speaker 1: always game to hear those, and hey, in future episodes,
Speaker 1: we're gonna try to fit in more loosener mail that
Speaker 1: we're kind of running fast and ragged at the moment,
Speaker 1: or at least I am. So how do you find us?
Speaker 1: How do you get in touch with us? How do
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