1 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:12,039 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Invention. My name is Robert lamp and 2 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part two of 3 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 1: our discussion of the invention of board games. Now. In 4 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:21,479 Speaker 1: the last episode, we talked a lot about the i 5 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:25,440 Speaker 1: the idea of what play is and what games are 6 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: and how they emerge from our biology, and the fact 7 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: that this is still an open question. We talked about 8 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,240 Speaker 1: a lot of the evidence in the theories about why 9 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: why play exists in animals, what purpose it serves, if 10 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: it might be biologically adaptive in one way or another, 11 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,599 Speaker 1: the idea of that maybe it trains us for future skills, 12 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: that maybe it signals fitness, that maybe it makes us 13 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: more versatile and able to deal with unexpected events, and 14 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 1: all kinds of things like that. We also talked about 15 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 1: theories about why abstracted versions of play like board games emerged. 16 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 1: That maybe it was in order to sublimate a competitive 17 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 1: instinct that could be violent if not given an outlet 18 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:08,039 Speaker 1: like games, Yeah, don't punch each other in the face, 19 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:12,400 Speaker 1: play Little rockham Stock and robots instead, uh yeah. And 20 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:14,479 Speaker 1: and then also the idea that there is a deep 21 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:19,039 Speaker 1: inherent link between board games the earliest known board games 22 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 1: and the practice of divination or sort of ledge, where 23 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: you might do things like cast lots to figure out 24 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: the will of the gods, or answer a question by 25 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: consulting some type of pseudo random object or event. You know, 26 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: you throw knuckle bones and see what the gods are 27 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: telling you, or consult the each ing, and that these 28 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:39,839 Speaker 1: kinds of things could have given way to board games 29 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: that also involve casting of lots or rolling of knucklebones 30 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 1: to see how many spaces you get to move on 31 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: the board, right, and we see that legacy continue in 32 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 1: modern games. The Mystery Day, the Game of Life that 33 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 1: we already mentioned, and though this is not technically a game, 34 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 1: it is still kind of lumped into the same similar category. 35 00:01:57,480 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: Certainly something you can buy at a toy store, but 36 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: the magic eight ball. The magic eight ball is a 37 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: toy that is obviously just overtly a divination tool, but 38 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: one that as uh I thought, I would say, usually 39 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: I don't know. I would say that even as a kid, 40 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: when I used a magic eight ball, there was a 41 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 1: sense of wanting it to be real, like there was 42 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 1: a you leaned into the magic, into the the sort 43 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: of the divine aspect of the practice, even though you 44 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: knew that this was was not actually a you know, 45 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: a hotline to the fates, or that God had anything 46 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: to do with what was happening in the ball, Robert, 47 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: do you hear that? Yeah? Whoa? What is that? Something 48 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: kind of cutting in cuttle Cat's cuttlefish to the second 49 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: oil age and his kingdom with whirl of darkness. I 50 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 1: don't dispute the eurostata, but if he's down here, not 51 00:02:54,040 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 1: blood but darkness, the Earth's black riches. No, I could 52 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: taste it on my lips. Today, I want to talk 53 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: to you about the science of transgenesis, tens genesis dot show. No, 54 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:21,679 Speaker 1: I guess it's gone now. Maybe it wasn't anything. Yeah, yeah, 55 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 1: I just heard like a high pitched, like like glitchy noise. Robert, 56 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 1: you've got a bit of blood in the owner of 57 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: your eye. Oh my goodness. I yeah, I'm I'm bleeding 58 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: from rama. I want to get cleaned up here and 59 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: we can keep going. I'm good, I'm good. Well, if 60 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 1: I can get off topic for just a second here. 61 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: Of course, I do think that there actually is that 62 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: the eight ball and other divination methods like the Wegia 63 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: board and all that. You know, we we can laugh 64 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: at like the strict religious authorities and adults who say, 65 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 1: don't fool around with the weedge board. You know, you're 66 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 1: inviting demons in. Or they might say the same thing 67 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: about the magic eight ball. On one hand, that's kind 68 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: of funny. But on the other hand, of course, I'm 69 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 1: not suggesting like real spiritual demons actually come in and 70 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: possess you if you play with a wigia board. I 71 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: do think playing with a wigia board can be kind 72 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: of dangerous because it suggests a divinatory frame of mind, 73 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:16,160 Speaker 1: even if you don't go in believing in it. I 74 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: bet you've had this experience of playing around with something 75 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: like this not believing it has any real magical power. 76 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:25,600 Speaker 1: But then once you've played the game, you kind of 77 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:28,359 Speaker 1: start to wonder, and it tempts you, attempts you to 78 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: think in terms of fate, in terms of like the 79 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: intervention of of other otherworldly forces in your life. If 80 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: you play with it enough, I can see how it 81 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:39,919 Speaker 1: could really suck your mind into that cast of thinking, 82 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: which can be harmful. Well even just um just you know, 83 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,720 Speaker 1: marginal exposure to something to that kind of thinking can 84 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 1: have an effect. I think back to the episode of 85 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind we did on the Chinese 86 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: zodiac and uh, you know, with the lunar calendar, the 87 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: different zodiac animals associated with each year, and the sort 88 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 1: of the the loose too complicated characteristics that are aligned 89 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 1: with individuals born in each year, and how you saw 90 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 1: you when you look at the birth statistics, you see 91 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: this this bump uh during the years of the Dragon, 92 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:17,280 Speaker 1: the most auspicious year. And and one of the things 93 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: that we found is that this didn't you didn't see 94 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: this occurring because necessarily people were just like hardcore Chinese 95 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 1: astrology believers, but that they were there were other things, 96 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 1: probably more important things of impacting their their choices, But 97 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: then this thing was in the background, like a casual 98 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 1: understanding of the zodiac, and then that ended up perhaps 99 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 1: the argument is um uh influencing their choices. So just 100 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 1: having something like the the eight ball or the Luigi board, 101 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 1: or astrology or whatever supernatural model you want to lean on, 102 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: just having there in the background can conceivably be enough 103 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 1: to tweak your choices, you know. And I wonder if 104 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: this can be extended into partly explaining why games of 105 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,480 Speaker 1: chance have sometimes historically and even sometimes by by a 106 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 1: few people today, been considered dangerous because if there is 107 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: this kind of danger, you know, even if there aren't 108 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:15,039 Speaker 1: really spirits that are gonna come mess with you, there 109 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 1: is a kind of danger in setting your mind to 110 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: the cast of thinking that is encouraged by divination methods, 111 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: and that rolling dice to play a game of chance 112 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 1: is in a way a form of divination. It is 113 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 1: kind of a slightly abstracted sortilage practice. Now, I also 114 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: want to remind everybody, since it, you know, may have 115 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: been a week since you listen to the last episode, 116 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: we're going to talk a little bit as we continue 117 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 1: about sort of the what I'm thinking of the three 118 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: corners of gaming that you're gonna have the mechanics of 119 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 1: the game. That's the rules, the system of rules that 120 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 1: dictate how it's played, the skeleton the skeleton ya, who wins, 121 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: how they win, et cetera. Then you have the fluff, which, 122 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: especially in modern games, this is the story, the characters, 123 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:59,160 Speaker 1: the setting, the illustration and illustrations. And then you have 124 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: the material aspect of it, which could be as simple 125 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: as a board and some sort of you know, a 126 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: dice or it is something more elaborate, like it requires 127 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 1: a poplematic bubble, or you know, the battleships set requires 128 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: this whole plastic interface, etcetera. The Omega virus robots that 129 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 1: talks to you and or the videotape you put in 130 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: with the you the one who is moving now right, 131 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: Or there are a lot of games you know nowadays, 132 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 1: or there are a lot of games that have just 133 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: required timers. You need that hour glass, right, But a 134 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: lot of games now that either have a timing element 135 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: or something more complicated than that will require you to 136 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 1: use an app which which it can also be used 137 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: to great effect. Well, I think we should then try 138 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: to turn our attention to what is the earliest known 139 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: evidence of physical apparatus for for these types of abstract 140 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 1: games like board games. What's the earliest evidence we have 141 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 1: that somebody was playing something like a board game. Well, 142 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: when you start diving back through history, you find that 143 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: some of the uh what is considered the earliest archaeological 144 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,559 Speaker 1: evidence for board games pops up in the Neolithic Middle 145 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: East around seven thousand BC. Wow, board games nine thousand 146 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: years ago. But this would have been the time in 147 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: which individuals living in this region we're beginning to find 148 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: social leisure and security on a regular basis for the 149 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: first time. So they were feeling safe enough, they were 150 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: feeling secure enough, and you know how much food they 151 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: had available that they had, say, you know, a few 152 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 1: minutes in the afternoon to scratch some a grid into 153 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:36,719 Speaker 1: the dirt and maybe move a few pebbles around. Now, 154 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: I would think a grid scratched into the dirt would 155 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: not survive nine thousand years. So what is the physical 156 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 1: evidence we have that people were playing games like this 157 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: at the time. Well, that is one of the key 158 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: the key challenges because we tend to find what might 159 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: be the boards or the pieces, and sometimes it can 160 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: be difficult to figure out exactly what we're looking at, 161 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: you know. Uh. Indeed, if it's something as simple as 162 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: pegs and stone owns, or little holes drilled in stones, 163 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 1: or some sort of a grid and stones, there's a 164 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 1: fair amount of interpretation figuring out why people made these marks. 165 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 1: Um And certainly we're not going to find anything like 166 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 1: the rules for ancient game. If if you have a 167 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: game that is predating written language, there is no rule 168 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 1: book to go by. It would have just been an 169 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:24,079 Speaker 1: oral tradition. So it's not always easy to say, yes, 170 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:26,680 Speaker 1: this was probably part of a game, this was something 171 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 1: that served litteral or no purpose outside of leisure. For instance, 172 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: there's the Neolithic Beta site, which dates back to somewhere 173 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:38,319 Speaker 1: between seventy two hundred and sixty b C. And it's 174 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: near Petra, Jordan's Uh and this is one of many 175 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: ancient sites where we have we find stone slabs with 176 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: three parallel rows of regular holes, and this might have 177 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: been an early precursor to Mancala, which is of course 178 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 1: one of the world's most ancient games and one that 179 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 1: we still find versions of throughout the world. You can 180 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 1: usually buy it at a store or even I remember 181 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: a version of Mancola got popular at my school. I 182 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: think when I was in I don't know, something like 183 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: sixth grade. Does that sound about right. Yeah, I think 184 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 1: that it has come backs occasionally. Yeah. Yeah, it's one 185 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 1: of these you just see. I don't think I've ever 186 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 1: owned a copy, but you you see it around like 187 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: it's for something with such ancient origins, it's still very 188 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:25,319 Speaker 1: much alive. Basically, it involves like you get to go 189 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 1: along a series of holes or impressions, dropping in seeds 190 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: or stones, one at a time and like counting out 191 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 1: the number of places you get to go. Right, it's 192 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 1: generally a colored beads nowadays, but but the older model 193 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: would have probably used seeds or beans, and this might 194 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 1: reveal its origins as a fertility ritual for early agricultural societies. 195 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 1: Again getting into a little bit into the divination and 196 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 1: a little get into the magical perhaps origins of games. 197 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 1: That's really interesting the idea. Yeah, so seeds, agriculture and fertility, 198 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 1: but also having perhaps some kind of divinatory role exactly. Yeah, 199 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:05,479 Speaker 1: and uh, these were pretty white, widespread, to the point 200 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: that mencla games are are even a whole category of 201 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 1: ancient games in some classifications. Now there are different classifications 202 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: for for games and board games that you'll find depending 203 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: on who the scholar is that's doing the analysis. But 204 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: for instance, Harold James Ruthren Murray is one of the 205 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: individuals who categorized games, and he said, okay, well we 206 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: have men calla games, that's a category. But then he 207 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: had other games, for instance, alignment and configuration games. The 208 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 1: most obvious example of this is tic tac toe Connect 209 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: four Connect four I think would probably count basic principles 210 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 1: the same. You have war games. Of course, the classic 211 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:50,079 Speaker 1: example there is chess, but you can throw in your 212 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: warhammer games, you can throw in your risk games. I mean, 213 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 1: these are all essentially games that simulate warfare. Then they're 214 00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: hunting games. I don't think I've played one of these, 215 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: or at least I don't think I have. But Fox 216 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 1: and Geese is an example that pops up in different cultures. 217 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 1: This was the hardest category for me to understand. I 218 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 1: think maybe it involves sort of like collecting pieces, like 219 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: you compete to collect them or something. Yeah, it kind 220 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 1: of makes more sense if you if you look at 221 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 1: a picture of it. So if you do a search 222 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: for fox and Geese games, you'll see some some images. 223 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 1: Then there are race games, and the prime example here 224 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 1: is backgammon. I don't think I've ever played backgammon, so 225 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: I don't actually know how you do it. Well, it's 226 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 1: it's a pretty ancient game that but is also apparently 227 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: a descendant of the two row Roman dice game twelve lines, 228 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 1: which itself was based on older forms of the same mechanic. 229 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 1: And this is something you see with a lot of 230 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: these games. It's just this continual evolution of form games 231 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 1: are passed on almost virally from culture to culture, and 232 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,439 Speaker 1: new spins are put on them because for a certain 233 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 1: to a certain extent, especially when they're when it's just 234 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 1: oral tradition. Uh, you know, it's going it's like a 235 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 1: game of telephone, but with the game rules levels of 236 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 1: complexity and simplification altering across the centuries. Yeah. I think 237 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 1: that's one of the key insights of the study of 238 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 1: games is that games are just are not fixed. They 239 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 1: always change. Yeah, like even something like Monopoly, which we'll 240 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 1: we'll get into more later, but it's easy for me, 241 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 1: especially to think, Okay, Monopoly, is this awful game that 242 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 1: never changes. Oh yeah, we learned that last time you 243 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 1: hate Monopoly. Hate Monopoly. Yeah, you go to the store 244 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: and there's some new version of Monopoly and it's the 245 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: same version of Monopoly, different pictures. They just tweaked the 246 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 1: fluff like that. You can even get Warhammer Monopoly, Star 247 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,440 Speaker 1: Wars Monopoly. Yeah. But but even but I say that, 248 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 1: but deuced Bigelow Monopoly. I say this, but I was 249 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 1: just talking to Scott Benjamin, who helped us research this episode, 250 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 1: and he pointed out that actually you do see evolution 251 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: in Monopoly. There's a millennial Monopoly that came out where 252 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: they've altered the rules, not only the fluff, but the 253 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 1: rules itself to indicate that you're not you're not buying things, 254 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: you're renning things, and then of course they're there's also 255 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: like a card game based of Monopoly. There are other 256 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: games with the same franchise and similar fluff. Wait a minute, 257 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 1: if you're renting them, how do you how do you 258 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: what do your sublease when people land on your tiles 259 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: on the board. I don't know. Uh, community chest is 260 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 1: replaced with like take a puff of the jewel. Well, 261 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 1: as long as the as long as the game ends 262 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 1: the same way all Monopoly games end, and that is 263 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 1: with friends mad at each other, that's all that counts. 264 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: That's not my experience. That's my experience with risk because 265 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: that risk makes people hate each other. Okay, I never 266 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: played risk. I had friends who are really into it. 267 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 1: But that's one that also goes really long, right it can, 268 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: and risk risk is like the number one offender for 269 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 1: for outing table flippers, for you know, letting you know 270 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: which are your friends is actually a really bad sport 271 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: to find out through risk. Yeah, you know, thinking back 272 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: to Monopoly, and then I think, you know, I had 273 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 1: friends who were playing risk too, Is that part of it. 274 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: It's like a really long game that's played at night 275 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 1: in many cases, and so you've just been doing it 276 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: for so long, you're tired, you need to go home, 277 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: you need to go to sleep, You're still stuck in 278 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: this low stakes um b s And then yeah, eventually 279 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: you just gotta flip the table. Elements make it worse. 280 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: Most often, i'd say, played for a long time at 281 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: night by adult men who have maybe been consuming alcohol. 282 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: So like, yeah, it's a bad scene and will let 283 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: the demons in for sure. All right, well, let's take 284 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 1: a break, and when we come back, we're going to 285 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 1: roll into some some specific examples, some more specific examples 286 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: of ancient games and and really we can learn a 287 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 1: lot about just the nature of board games in general 288 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: by looking at what we know and what we don't 289 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: know about these ancient pastimes. All right, we're back now. 290 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: Earlier we talked about the idea that there is perhaps 291 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: physical evidence of some type of unidentified Neolithic board game 292 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: just been found in like near Petra in Jordan's that 293 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 1: was perhaps a form of the Moncola game type but 294 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 1: we don't know for sure, and that that was maybe 295 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: like seven thousand b C or nine thousand years ago. 296 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: The oldest game that we definitely really know about on 297 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 1: are sure it's a game we have direct archaeological evidence of, 298 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 1: is a game from ancient Egypt called senate. That's right, 299 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 1: also known as the game of thirty squares, also known 300 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 1: as the game of passing, which will get back to later. 301 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: I think that's what senate actually means, is passing. So 302 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: the dates range on this, So I've seen dates that 303 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 1: that say Senate goes back to roughly three thousand BC. Yeah, 304 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 1: I've seen that there's evidence trace to BC or basically 305 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: roughly the fourth millennium BC. Either way, it was played 306 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: in pre dynastic times, and we can even turn to 307 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: tomb paintings that that actually depict ancient Egyptians playing this 308 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: game during this time period. Yeah. One famous one is 309 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: an ancient Egyptian painting of Queen Nefertari, one of the 310 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 1: wives of Rams. He's the great, and this painting of 311 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:05,439 Speaker 1: Nefertory playing Senet is within the queen's own tomb, so 312 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: in her tomb in the Valley of Queens and Thebes 313 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 1: there's a painting of her playing a board game. That's dedication. 314 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: I mean she was probably nationally ranked. Well yeah, probably 315 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:19,639 Speaker 1: so now when you look at this illustration, I've actually 316 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:24,680 Speaker 1: seen this illustration wrongfully identified as her playing chess. That's 317 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 1: not correct. Chess wouldn't come about for another four thousand 318 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 1: years in India, and I think that's worth remembering too. 319 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: By the time chess was invented, games like this were 320 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: more ancient than chess is now. Yeah, that's unbelievable. I 321 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: love putting ancient history in that kind of perspective, like 322 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 1: thinking about the things, the things in ancient Egypt that 323 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: we're older to the ancient Romans than ancient Rome is 324 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:57,160 Speaker 1: to us. That's always something I'd like to keep in perspective. Um, 325 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: But so what do we know about this games net? 326 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 1: We know it was played with multiple game pieces, So 327 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 1: there were these things that look kind of like ponds 328 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 1: that were sometimes made of like a blue type ceramic material, 329 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:12,679 Speaker 1: and it was played on a grid of thirty squares. 330 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:16,679 Speaker 1: There were three rows of ten squares, and several of 331 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 1: the squares had symbolic hieroglyphs on them, seemingly symbolizing game imagery. 332 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 1: Such as the water Trap, like there'd be a water square. 333 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 1: And while our evidence of synet is often in the 334 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: form of elaborate game boxes used by the wealthy, it 335 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 1: speculated that the game could also have been played by 336 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 1: the poor simply by drawing a grid in the sand, 337 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 1: or by like making scratches on a rock or a board. 338 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 1: And this is something we we see with some of 339 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: the later games we're going to discuss, where you had 340 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: the ornate version with a little in a box underneath 341 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 1: it to keep the pieces in. But then you also 342 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: see evidence of graffiti versions where someone just scrawled it 343 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:57,119 Speaker 1: on on stone and played it exactly. Now, the exact 344 00:18:57,240 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 1: rules for Senate, though, are ultimately just a matter of 345 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,639 Speaker 1: conject Sure, yeah we know something sort of, but we 346 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,640 Speaker 1: don't fully know how the game was originally played, right, 347 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: And you can just imagine this exercise taking various modern 348 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 1: games and imagine, you know, opening them and having absolutely 349 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:15,879 Speaker 1: no instructions, no written language about how they were played. 350 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 1: In some cases you can pretty much piece it together. 351 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: Fireball Island, candy Candy Land, especially Snakes and Ladders or 352 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 1: Shoots and Ladders. These are games that you know, you 353 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 1: can you can figure it out pretty quickly. Other games 354 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 1: with more you know, ambiguity is harder to tell, right 355 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 1: if you took a box of Arkham Horror. And it's 356 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: hard enough to tell what you're supposed to do in 357 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: Arkham Horror when you have the rules, but if you 358 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: have no rules, I can imagine there would be different 359 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 1: models based on it. Well, we think it was played 360 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 1: this way. We think these tiles were possibly used in 361 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 1: this way shape or form. Future archaeologists five thousand years 362 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: from now are definitely going to be able to figure 363 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: out how to play cross Fire because that's just obvious. 364 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:58,160 Speaker 1: You can't miss it. Yeah, hungry hungry hippos. Yeah, that's 365 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: another one though. Of course, you can determine some things, 366 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:02,880 Speaker 1: as we're saying, just by looking at what the what 367 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 1: we've been talking about is the materials of the game are. 368 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: What are the things you have to work with. It's 369 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:10,880 Speaker 1: believed that this game Senate was played by casting of 370 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 1: some equivalent of dice, maybe casting knucklebones or throwing sticks, 371 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 1: and this would help determine what kind of moves you 372 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 1: could make. Knucklebones, by the way, often these would be 373 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 1: a knucklebones from say a sheep or a goat. So 374 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: something that was regularly slaughtered and and used for to 375 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: manufacture items, and it would be something more like a 376 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 1: four sided dice, like a D four in modern gaming terms. 377 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: I don't know for sure, but I would have to 378 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:41,920 Speaker 1: guess that that would mean it's it's the biological shape 379 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: would mean it's not quite perfectly random which number you get, 380 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:47,439 Speaker 1: like there is actually a bias towards some of the 381 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: faces of the dice, since it's not, you know, perfectly 382 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:53,159 Speaker 1: machined to be equal. That's a good point, but I 383 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,360 Speaker 1: don't know that that just seems likely to me. One 384 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: of the really interesting things about Senate is how this 385 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,919 Speaker 1: game held sacred connotations for the ancient Egyptians, Like it 386 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be a coincidence that Nefertari has shown 387 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 1: playing the game in a painting within her own tomb. 388 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 1: Uh The pharaoh Tutton Common was also buried with Senate 389 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: game boxes among his grave goods to be taken into 390 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: the next life. And we mentioned earlier that the name 391 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: of the game means passing. It's the game of passing, 392 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 1: and this probably has significance on the board itself, because 393 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: it's believed that you played the game by sort of 394 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,160 Speaker 1: advancing past your opponent along the squares, and you could 395 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: like pass your opponent, you could block your opponent. So 396 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 1: it is in some ways literally a game of passing 397 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: in terms of its mechanics. But Senate also seems to 398 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:46,199 Speaker 1: hold this strong religious significance associated with death, which for 399 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: the ancient Egyptians meant passing on into the afterlife through 400 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 1: this cosmic journey. I know, Robert, you've talked about that 401 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: on stuff to blow your mind before. You know, the 402 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 1: beliefs about the journey of the dead among the ancient Egyptians, 403 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,439 Speaker 1: where you'd adventure through the nether world. Yeah, it's not 404 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 1: just a matter of your going off to something we 405 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: would think of as sort of a modern paradise. There's 406 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: like trials, their trials and could you know, continued adventures 407 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:14,440 Speaker 1: and adversaries in the in the Egyptian afterlife, And that's 408 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,400 Speaker 1: one of the reasons that the departed has to bring 409 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 1: all this stuff with them, Like some of it, they're 410 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 1: bringing things they like, but they're also bringing things they 411 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 1: will need exactly, and so it may serve some purpose 412 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 1: to like, uh, I mean, I'm thinking about passing time 413 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 1: in the afterlife. They're all these. Uh I don't know 414 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,439 Speaker 1: if this is just a curious feature of English and 415 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: in how these ironies are stacking up. But so this 416 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:38,920 Speaker 1: is a game which, like the idea of a game 417 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 1: in ancient India often meant you know that they literally 418 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: meant time passing, like the passing of time in a game. 419 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: Uh So games are for in a way passing time. 420 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 1: The mechanics of the game involved passing players is the 421 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 1: game of passing, and the meaning of the game spiritually 422 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 1: has to do with passing into immortality. Huh. Interesting, boy, 423 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 1: there's probably a lot you could do was just looking 424 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 1: at how different board games interpret linear and cyclical time 425 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,160 Speaker 1: um or both to some extent, you know, of taking 426 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:13,119 Speaker 1: taking our existence and piecing them out into step by step. 427 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,160 Speaker 1: Well yeah, I mean this is so if this game 428 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: in some way is presented as a model of something 429 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,880 Speaker 1: that these people believed actually happened to them. We still 430 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: have games like that today. I mean we were talking 431 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: earlier about the game of life. I mean, the game 432 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:30,159 Speaker 1: of life in many ways you could think of as 433 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 1: a kind of um like normative model formation engine. For like, 434 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:37,679 Speaker 1: this is what a life looks like. You you know, 435 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 1: go to college, you get a job and you start 436 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: a family, and the Game of Life kind of enforces 437 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: that by having you go through these motions over and 438 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:47,639 Speaker 1: over again. It's all there in the fluff, like all 439 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 1: the normative things that are being suggested about what life 440 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 1: should be like. Perhaps Senator is the same way. I mean, 441 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: when thinking about the religious details of the game, I 442 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 1: started to wonder about if some part of the purpose 443 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 1: of the game was not necessarily to have the negative 444 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:07,359 Speaker 1: connotations of this word, but propagandistic, to spread particular ideas 445 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,920 Speaker 1: through a catchy and inherently fun medium. It wouldn't be 446 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: the only game that did this right. We just mentioned 447 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,920 Speaker 1: the Game of Life, but think about Monopoly. Even though 448 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,399 Speaker 1: it's one of the most popular board games in modern history, 449 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: Monopoly has its roots like thoroughly in pushing a particular 450 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,120 Speaker 1: point of view. Specifically, it was created in the early 451 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds by our writer, inventor and progressive activist named 452 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,159 Speaker 1: Lizzie Maghee or Maggie m. A. G I. E. And 453 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 1: Maghee invented it specifically to illustrate the dangers and evils 454 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 1: of monopolies, of wealth accumulation and of these like rent 455 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,640 Speaker 1: seeking barons that you become in the game. It's ironic 456 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 1: because Monopoly has been in a very simple way. It 457 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 1: kind of glorifies this idea of the of the mustachioed 458 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 1: rich man. That's the funny thing that originally wasn't supposed 459 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,440 Speaker 1: to It was supposed to do the opposite. The original 460 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: title of her game was The Landlord's Game, and Mage 461 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 1: summed it up summed up her goal to a reporter 462 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 1: in nineteen o six by saying, quote, in a short time, 463 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: I hope a very short time, men and women will 464 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:11,400 Speaker 1: discover that they are poor because Carnegie and Rockefeller maybe 465 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 1: have more than they know what to do with. Yeah. Again, 466 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: that is directly the opposite of the message if you 467 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 1: want to say that modern monopoly has it is directly 468 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: the opposite of the message monopoly. Well, I think it 469 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 1: would depend on how you frame it. But yeah, I mean, 470 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,239 Speaker 1: people don't tend to take that away, do that. Well, 471 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 1: what's the monopoly guy's name? He has a name? Right? 472 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 1: These Mr money Bags? Right? Mr money Bags looks too 473 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: cute and adorable, Like he needs to he needs to 474 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 1: have more of this gnaar Old Ebenezer Scrooge like vibe 475 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: to him, you know, wearing like a necklace of bones 476 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 1: and yeah all that. Yeah, it needs to be less this. 477 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, he needs to be less cute and needs 478 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 1: to be grotesque in some fashion, like like the real 479 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 1: Ultra rich are. Well, they had to make the game 480 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 1: friendly to children. That's where they went wrong. But a 481 00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: funny thing also about the game is that she was 482 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 1: apparently interested it and using it to promote Georgian economics, 483 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 1: the set of ideas stemming from the economist Henry George. 484 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,239 Speaker 1: Did you did you know about this problem? Yeah? So, 485 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 1: basically George suggested that people should not be taxed. I 486 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 1: think this is the basic form. People shouldn't be taxed 487 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,479 Speaker 1: on the income from the work they do, but instead 488 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: should be taxed so that the spoils of land ownership 489 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:25,120 Speaker 1: and subsequently like natural resources and rent and everything are 490 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,439 Speaker 1: distributed equally among everyone. So you can't make money just 491 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 1: by owning land or by owning a mine or something 492 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: like that. Instead, you can only make money on the 493 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 1: work you do. But Monopoly is a game in which 494 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: that's what you do. You just acquired things and just 495 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 1: money comes in because so you're playing as the bad 496 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 1: guy in monopoly. But again, it gets you know, it 497 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: gets kind of you start thinking about it backwards. But anyway, 498 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 1: of course, the game became wildly popular, especially in these 499 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 1: derivative forms, for for which other game designers apparently claimed credit. 500 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,640 Speaker 1: But it didn't necessarily teach the players, as we're saying, 501 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,399 Speaker 1: all the things that make you hope it would. And 502 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 1: so this is something else to consider that It's widely agreed, 503 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: as we were saying earlier, that the rules of games 504 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,400 Speaker 1: change over time. You know, games don't stay fixed, they evolve. 505 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:13,679 Speaker 1: And I want to pair that with the fact that 506 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,359 Speaker 1: you don't often have to put much effort at all 507 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,440 Speaker 1: into a task to make it feel like a game. 508 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:20,879 Speaker 1: Just framing it as a game can be effective and 509 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:22,919 Speaker 1: making it feel fun and like a game. And this 510 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: has been demonstrated by empirical research. You know, the whole 511 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 1: Tom Sawyer painting the Fence trick. You know, this is 512 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,119 Speaker 1: a great game where you paint the fence, uh, and 513 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 1: everybody wants to get in on it. Apparently there's some 514 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:35,879 Speaker 1: research that shows this is true. I was looking at 515 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: a study from in the journal Games and Culture by 516 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 1: Andreas liber Off that is called shallow gamification, testing psychological 517 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: effects of framing and activity as a game, and I 518 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 1: found you know, you don't really have to do much 519 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 1: work to make something into a game. You just sort 520 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 1: of call it a game and get the basic basically 521 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:57,719 Speaker 1: frame it as a game, and people will enjoy it 522 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 1: as if it is a game. So anyway, my my 523 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 1: crazy series of thoughts here is I wonder if games, 524 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 1: maybe like sent It as an example, could be created 525 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,879 Speaker 1: to teach or model or advocate a particular view of 526 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 1: the world, a political view of the world, a religious 527 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 1: view of the world, creating some kind of normative model 528 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,920 Speaker 1: of how people should see things or how people should 529 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 1: behavior act, but later end up spreading and remaining popular 530 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 1: simply because the game mechanics are fun. And then the 531 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 1: fluff loses meaning or gets shed or gets changed over time, 532 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,399 Speaker 1: sort of like happened with Monopoly. Yeah yeah, well this 533 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: would be a discussion for another time. But like you do, 534 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: wonder what does a particular country or regions popular game forms? 535 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 1: What does that say about them? Like what does MONOPOLYI 536 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 1: say about the US? And I think it's unfair to 537 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,719 Speaker 1: have that be our game, but what what what does 538 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 1: monopolies popular to say about the United States? What does 539 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 1: say uh, settlers of Catan and other German and European 540 00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 1: design games. What do they say about mainland Europe? Does 541 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 1: the popularity of Warhammer forty say about the United Kingdom? 542 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 1: Is that where it comes from? Um? And then again 543 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: these are Perhaps this would be an attempt to read 544 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: too much into a game's popularity, but but at the 545 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 1: same time, I do agree that I think there there 546 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 1: is some sort of influence taking place. Like you to 547 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 1: to engage in in a game, to engage in a 548 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 1: system of a game's rules, Uh, you're really putting your 549 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 1: head in and you're putting your taking your thought process 550 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 1: and forcing it to mimic the the systematic layout of 551 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 1: the game. Yes, but as we're seeing it seems like 552 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 1: if the game is fun, it's possible that the layout 553 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: of the game, you know, the thing that maybe even 554 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 1: it was intended to teach or put you in the 555 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:48,959 Speaker 1: frame of mind of that can all be lost, can 556 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: all be changed. It's possible that Sinet is something that's 557 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 1: created for a kind of normative cultural purpose. In nah 558 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: in Egypt, it serves to teach something about their religion 559 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 1: and their society and all that. But because it's a 560 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: fun game, it spreads to other societies for which these 561 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 1: meanings don't really carry over, right, So they're just that 562 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: they're just stuck with the mechanics. Yeah, and uh, and 563 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 1: that's what they can continues to live on. I mean, 564 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 1: another way of thinking about this could be the original 565 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 1: forms of chess were you know what. Therefore, perhaps they 566 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 1: were for trying to like teach a military mindset to 567 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: young knights or something like that, but you know, that's 568 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 1: not necessarily what they're for now. It just turns out 569 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 1: that the mechanics of the game are too fun to 570 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 1: be contained, and they survived their original cultural context or meaning. 571 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 1: So now we're gonna be talking about the Royal Game 572 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 1: of Her, another ancient game from thousands of years ago. 573 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 1: We last time we talked about the Egyptian board game Senate. 574 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 1: That this is a um somewhat similar game, though it's different. 575 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 1: Senate was a game of thirty squares that were lined 576 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 1: up in three rows of ten squares and you somehow 577 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 1: advanced along the squares and tried to pass your opponent 578 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 1: or is somewhat different. But it's also a game of squares, right, Yeah, 579 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 1: it's it's basically two square grids connected by this little bridge. 580 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 1: So you have a three by two grid, and then 581 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: you have a three by four grid, and then you 582 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 1: have a two square horizontal bridge connecting the two and um, 583 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 1: I we said the name of this is the Game 584 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 1: of Er. And I believe if anyone who's listened to 585 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: stuff to blow your mind, you might remember that we've 586 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: in the past mentioned the Great Ziggurat of Er. Well, 587 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 1: it's the same Er so in what is now southern 588 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: iraq Um. And to be clear, evidence of the Game 589 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 1: of Er dates to the same time period as the 590 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 1: Great Pyramid of Giza. We're talking b C. I think 591 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 1: I've we've also seen twenty hundred BC as a date 592 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 1: for the Game of Er. Okay, so almost as ancient 593 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: a senate. Yeah yeah, pretty old. Now we're not again. 594 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 1: This is another one where we're not exactly sure how 595 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 1: the game was played with this curious board, but different 596 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 1: scholars have weighed in to suggest how the pieces moved 597 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:00,200 Speaker 1: might have moved, and how they might have be been 598 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 1: battled in the narrow channel between the smaller and greater grids. 599 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: Game historian Andrea Becker believes that the origins of the 600 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 1: game might have been a form of divination. Okay, so 601 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: that again, Yeah, with the specific boards related to specific 602 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 1: sorts of divination. What's more, she argues that they might 603 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,719 Speaker 1: have also served as a way to teach divination. So 604 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 1: that's interest. So instead of teaching, um, you know, some 605 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: sort of economic model. Uh, it's about teaching someone how 606 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 1: to divine the future. Huh. Well, so now I'm seeing 607 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 1: three ways that you can have a relationship between ancient 608 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: board games and divination methods. So you could have one 609 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: one route that's just derivative. Right, You've got divination methods 610 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 1: where so you throw knucklebones to get an answer from 611 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 1: the gods, and then you also realize that that can 612 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 1: be used to determine outcomes in an abstract scenario, which 613 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: is like a game. So it's just derivative of divination. 614 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 1: Another router connection here would be that it's used to 615 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 1: teach divination. A third would be that it is a 616 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 1: form of divination, that the board game itself is a 617 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 1: method of consulting the gods. Yeah, I mean it gets 618 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 1: into the whole situation like is any battle game Is 619 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 1: it a battle? Is it a simulation of the battle? 620 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 1: Is it is it preparing you to simulate or take 621 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 1: place in a battle. Yes, it derivative from battle principles. 622 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 1: Is it designed to teach you battle or is it 623 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 1: actually a form of battle that's supposed to decide something exactly? Now, 624 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: one of the cool things about Earth is that eventually 625 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 1: we did get some codified writings about how it is played. Uh, 626 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 1: not so clear apparently that there's not a lot of 627 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 1: continued discussion about exactly how it was played. And of 628 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:41,959 Speaker 1: course how it was played probably changed over time, right, 629 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 1: but many centuries after it's it's introduction, you did have 630 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 1: a clay tablet from one seventy seven b C. That 631 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 1: that raid in on how to play it. And it's 632 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 1: a rare exception to the lost history nature of of 633 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 1: board game designers, because uh, if accounts are true. Uh, 634 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 1: And of course we have to sort of flat grain 635 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 1: of salt when we're talking about individuals described as doing 636 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 1: things in ancient texts. But um, the rules for for 637 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 1: this game were codified by the Babylonian scholar inscribe Itty Mar, 638 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 1: Duke of Balatu in one s b c. And he 639 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: even added new features which Brian fagan Um in his 640 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:26,279 Speaker 1: book said, quote enliven it for the contemporary gambler. So 641 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,560 Speaker 1: I'm assuming that means play mechanics and not mere fluff. 642 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 1: But there is a there is a lot of interesting 643 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,359 Speaker 1: fluff to this game actually, and the fluff, I would say, 644 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 1: seems to coincide with the idea that the game was 645 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:41,239 Speaker 1: used for divination related purposes, maybe to teach divination or 646 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:45,839 Speaker 1: maybe actually as a form of divination associated with astrology. Right, 647 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 1: that's right. So a man by the name of Irving 648 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 1: Finkel with the British Museum, I believe he translated the 649 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 1: Cuneiform and believed that while there were strong astrological aspects 650 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,840 Speaker 1: to or, he believed it was still primarily a game. 651 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:03,359 Speaker 1: So that the so the astrology was fluff as opposed to, uh, 652 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: it's it's primary purpose in society. But the fluff is 653 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 1: really interesting. Like I looked up some of this writing 654 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,439 Speaker 1: and translation work by Irving Finkel on the quine form 655 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 1: of the the original board. And so what the evidence 656 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: shows is that the squares of the board were often 657 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 1: labeled in a way that caused the game board to 658 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 1: produce prediction statements as you played it. Uh, And this 659 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 1: is from Irving Finkel, And so you'd have these ways 660 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,400 Speaker 1: that the game board could produce sort of a sentence, 661 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: but it would also be associated with an astrological sign. 662 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 1: So so you could have the game board say one 663 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 1: who sits in a tavern, or I will pour out 664 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,920 Speaker 1: the dregs for you. Or you will find a friend, 665 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,719 Speaker 1: or you will stand in exalted places, or you will 666 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 1: be powerful like a lion, or you will go up 667 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:54,759 Speaker 1: the path. Uh. There are a bunch of interesting ones, 668 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 1: like one who weighs up silver. I love these there. 669 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:01,840 Speaker 1: They make the game feel very creepy and elemental. Or 670 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 1: the one that says you will cut meat. You will 671 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:05,759 Speaker 1: cut meat. That's a great one. What does that mean? 672 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:07,840 Speaker 1: Does that mean? Is that good neat? Like I will 673 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 1: I will have a feast in my honor and I 674 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 1: will give you the one to cut it. Or is 675 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:13,759 Speaker 1: it more like I will work at the butcher's shop. 676 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,360 Speaker 1: I don't know. You will cut meat? Apparently it's associated 677 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,360 Speaker 1: with the astrological sign of Aquarius. Uh. And there are 678 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,359 Speaker 1: other similarities like that, like you will be powerful like 679 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,279 Speaker 1: a lion is associated with the sign of Leo. That 680 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,319 Speaker 1: gets really interesting because you know, we we can think 681 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 1: about ourselves, we can think of modern humans and for us, 682 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:36,239 Speaker 1: divination practices can be fun. Again, going back to the 683 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 1: idea of the something like a fortune cookie at an 684 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 1: American Chinese restaurant or magic eight ball, magic eight ball 685 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 1: or you know what's actually also at the intersection of 686 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:47,960 Speaker 1: a game and a divination practice is you remember the 687 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:51,320 Speaker 1: game MASH that the kids would play in elementary school 688 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,960 Speaker 1: and stuff. Um, are you talking about with the folding paper? Yeah, 689 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:58,799 Speaker 1: it was, well, I think it was MASH. I think 690 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:03,680 Speaker 1: stands for mansion, apartment, shock house. And so it would 691 00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 1: be a thing where you'd have a number of options 692 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:08,400 Speaker 1: for different things that could come out of it. So 693 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:10,839 Speaker 1: you'd be like, who will you marry, and then you'd 694 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 1: give like four options. And then the thing that you'd 695 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 1: use some kind of pseudo random procedure to generate a 696 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:19,960 Speaker 1: number that would like have you go through the list 697 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:22,879 Speaker 1: counting a certain number of places to like rule out 698 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,399 Speaker 1: answers until you got to the end, and the end 699 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,319 Speaker 1: would give you some combination of possible answers. It would 700 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:30,839 Speaker 1: be like you will live in a mansion and you'll 701 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:36,879 Speaker 1: be married to Tim Curry and you know, etcetera. Interesting. So, so, yeah, 702 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,360 Speaker 1: there's the fun side to divination. But even today people 703 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:42,719 Speaker 1: people get taken in by by divination uh, and it 704 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,880 Speaker 1: can be a very stressful, a very serious situation that 705 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 1: you can you know, people can lose a lot of 706 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:52,160 Speaker 1: money investing in divination. But then likewise, gaming is much 707 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 1: the same. Games can be a lot of fun, but 708 00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:56,680 Speaker 1: if you're playing the wrong game, you're playing with the 709 00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,360 Speaker 1: wrong people, or you're playing with the wrong attitude, games 710 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,239 Speaker 1: can be a seriously unpleasant experience. Yeah, okay, we just 711 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 1: got a Mash update from Tari outside the booth here. 712 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,000 Speaker 1: Apparently Tari was a big MASH fan, and she says, 713 00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,239 Speaker 1: one important part we left out is that you've got 714 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:15,319 Speaker 1: to add bad options in your mash list. So it's like, 715 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:17,839 Speaker 1: I guess the shock and Mash. You also like, if 716 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,319 Speaker 1: you have potential husbands you'll marry one of them has 717 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,000 Speaker 1: got to be a really like lame, ugly guy. Uh 718 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,399 Speaker 1: so that you'll end up with funny combinations. She says, 719 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 1: So maybe you're living in a mansion, but you're married 720 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,920 Speaker 1: to pee wee herman. You know, this reminds me a 721 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 1: little bit of of of a card game that I've 722 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:38,600 Speaker 1: really enjoyed playing recently called Gloomy and uses these transparent 723 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,759 Speaker 1: cards that actually have a mechanical purpose in the game. 724 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 1: But essentially you have these cards that indicate different members 725 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,880 Speaker 1: of your sort of Edward gory uh style family. And 726 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,480 Speaker 1: then you want to have the most miserable family that 727 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:55,040 Speaker 1: dies in horror. Oh you told me about this, and 728 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,239 Speaker 1: and so and so. What you try to do is 729 00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 1: to make sure your family has the most horrible experience 730 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:04,000 Speaker 1: possib bull and dies off. Meanwhile bestowing um, you know, 731 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:07,000 Speaker 1: happy things upon the other. So, so you want your 732 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:11,360 Speaker 1: family members to say, catch some awful plague and drown 733 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,640 Speaker 1: in a well. But then you want members of the 734 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,440 Speaker 1: opposing families to say, for Alic with a kitten or 735 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,880 Speaker 1: something like that. So mash is the mash is complex. 736 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 1: It's got to include both possible outcomes. Right, it's part 737 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:25,759 Speaker 1: gloom and it's part mirror, mirror on the wall. It's 738 00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,160 Speaker 1: like part giving you all the stuff you want to hear. 739 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,200 Speaker 1: And then also it's got to throw in some bad 740 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,839 Speaker 1: news to make it real. All right, well, let's let's 741 00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,839 Speaker 1: bring it back to her here. Uh, there's at least 742 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:40,840 Speaker 1: one theory that or eventually evolved into backgammon. So again 743 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 1: we see this time and time again with these old games, 744 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:46,560 Speaker 1: like looking at the possible lines that connected them and 745 00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 1: then also kind of like like species, like like actual organisms. 746 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 1: You see examples where one game was kind of killed 747 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,480 Speaker 1: off by another. You had like an invasive game come 748 00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 1: from another culture, and everyone's like, whoa, why aren't we 749 00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:01,480 Speaker 1: playing this when we could be playing that? And then 750 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:06,120 Speaker 1: a game dies. But another interesting thing that Finkel brought 751 00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:09,759 Speaker 1: up is a that that it likely used what we're 752 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,279 Speaker 1: known as astro gals, and these would have been those 753 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:17,160 Speaker 1: four sighted dice made from the knucklebones of sheep or goats. Again, 754 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,120 Speaker 1: it's it's so fascinating to think of many modern board 755 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:22,960 Speaker 1: and dice games as the tail end of something that 756 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:29,120 Speaker 1: began and perhaps divination maps and rattled animal bones. You know. Uh, 757 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:33,440 Speaker 1: in this sense, all games are potentially occult exercises. By 758 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:35,560 Speaker 1: the way, Finkel apparently has a couple of books about 759 00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:38,520 Speaker 1: out about ancient board games that feature rules and punch 760 00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:42,960 Speaker 1: out boards and spinners, so, you know, so younger players 761 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,360 Speaker 1: especially can can try out at least versions of what 762 00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:48,640 Speaker 1: some of these ancient games could have consisted of. We 763 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,960 Speaker 1: gotta wonder, like, what are the best games lost to history? 764 00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,200 Speaker 1: You we know that there must have been lots of 765 00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:56,640 Speaker 1: games that we don't even really know anything about, or 766 00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:58,520 Speaker 1: maybe only have a hint of. We don't know all 767 00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:01,399 Speaker 1: the rules that could be a most fun game ever, 768 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 1: they could be so addictive, and we do. We just 769 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:05,839 Speaker 1: don't know what they are. Because there's of course an 770 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,080 Speaker 1: endless possible combination of rules you can come up with 771 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:12,040 Speaker 1: for moving pieces around on a board. Maybe there's like 772 00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:15,440 Speaker 1: the ultimate perfect game out there, and it's totally unknown. 773 00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:19,840 Speaker 1: What if they they basically had Space Hulk Babylonian times, 774 00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:22,080 Speaker 1: because again coming back to what I said, there's no 775 00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:24,879 Speaker 1: reason you couldn't have a game with the exact same 776 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:28,840 Speaker 1: mechanics as Space Hulk, take place in an ancient setting. 777 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,160 Speaker 1: But I thought what was a major part of the 778 00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:33,600 Speaker 1: appeal of Space Hulk was the fluff, Like you like 779 00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:35,879 Speaker 1: the illustrations in the setting and all that. Right, I do. 780 00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:38,640 Speaker 1: But then, but Space Hulk also has this wonderful mechanic 781 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:40,360 Speaker 1: where you have to you have to force. You have 782 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,440 Speaker 1: the humans who are superpowered and tough, but then you 783 00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:46,720 Speaker 1: have the Horde, and the Horde that so the timing 784 00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:48,839 Speaker 1: is different. So when the humans go, when the human 785 00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:52,080 Speaker 1: player goes, uh, they have a time limit. They have 786 00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:53,680 Speaker 1: a certain amount of time in which they have to 787 00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:56,640 Speaker 1: make all their moves and use all of their movement points, 788 00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:00,400 Speaker 1: but the player controlling the the alien horror of the 789 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:04,440 Speaker 1: Gene Steelers, they have all the time they need. So 790 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:09,040 Speaker 1: I do feel like there's something primal and attractive in 791 00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:12,400 Speaker 1: the mechanics of Space Hulk that cats this feeling of 792 00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:14,799 Speaker 1: of you know, it's like it's like it's so grim dark. 793 00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:17,040 Speaker 1: It's the most grim dark game because it's like I 794 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,040 Speaker 1: am up against death. I am up against this thing 795 00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,560 Speaker 1: that is ever patient and ever lasting, and it's probably 796 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:25,799 Speaker 1: in the game. I mean, it's probably going to kill you. 797 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,919 Speaker 1: It's a very dangerous game to play. Um and part 798 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 1: of the fun is not in oh did I win? 799 00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:34,120 Speaker 1: But did I almost win? Now? If I understand the 800 00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:37,520 Speaker 1: Warhammer universe correctly, it would also be the implication that 801 00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:40,279 Speaker 1: the humans are not really good, right, No, no, the 802 00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,960 Speaker 1: humans are awful, but but they're the best choice compared 803 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:46,400 Speaker 1: to all of the other awful things in the universe, 804 00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:50,200 Speaker 1: which does feel kind of like appropriately, like like ancient 805 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:52,880 Speaker 1: that it could have the mechanics like this could have 806 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:57,839 Speaker 1: found their their way and say a Babylonian uh mindset 807 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 1: that all right, let's take one or break and we 808 00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,080 Speaker 1: come back. Uh, we're gonna just roll through a few 809 00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:06,560 Speaker 1: more examples of ancient board games and board games of note, 810 00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:14,759 Speaker 1: and then we're going to close out. Alright, we're back now. 811 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,600 Speaker 1: One of the ancient games that seemed kind of interesting 812 00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:20,160 Speaker 1: to me is a game of if I understand correctly, 813 00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:23,560 Speaker 1: it's basically of unknown mechanics known as Lubo, which is 814 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:27,760 Speaker 1: an ancient Chinese board game. Right, the name means six sticks. 815 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:31,840 Speaker 1: It's the game of six sticks. Uh, Lubou sounds a 816 00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:35,160 Speaker 1: lot better, rolls off the top a lot, a lot easier. Uh. 817 00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,799 Speaker 1: So the rules of this game, yeah, are still uncertain, 818 00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,239 Speaker 1: but we see figurines of men playing it from Han 819 00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,800 Speaker 1: dynasty tombs that would have been the area of two 820 00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:48,600 Speaker 1: to b C two two twenty c E. And it 821 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:52,120 Speaker 1: was likely invented in the first millennium b C. But 822 00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:55,279 Speaker 1: the height of its popularity was definitely the Han dynasty. 823 00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:57,400 Speaker 1: So there would have been two players. There was a 824 00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:01,280 Speaker 1: board and sticks were thrown to determine the movement of pieces. 825 00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:03,120 Speaker 1: And one of the reasons we don't know a lot 826 00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:05,600 Speaker 1: about this game is this game died out because there 827 00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:08,160 Speaker 1: was an invasive there was another game. There was a competitor. 828 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:11,640 Speaker 1: The game of Go entered the picture in the Joe 829 00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:15,080 Speaker 1: Dynasty around somewhere in the region of ten forty six 830 00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:21,319 Speaker 1: through two e and eventually just overtook Lubou to become 831 00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,360 Speaker 1: the most important board game in Chinese culture, and it 832 00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:28,360 Speaker 1: remains so to this day. Now, we didn't uh, you know, 833 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:30,200 Speaker 1: we're talking about casting the sticks here. One thing we 834 00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:32,200 Speaker 1: didn't even really get into this, into it all in 835 00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:36,080 Speaker 1: this was the long dice. You see these referenced in 836 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:38,719 Speaker 1: um in some of the Hindu epics. To kind about 837 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:42,719 Speaker 1: casting the long dice in battle, you know, whether just 838 00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:44,560 Speaker 1: there were a type of dice that were there were 839 00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:47,359 Speaker 1: long and more stick like, but they were used as 840 00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:53,560 Speaker 1: a as as a form of of generating a random figure. Now, 841 00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,360 Speaker 1: speaking of India, we do have to at least touch 842 00:44:56,440 --> 00:45:00,600 Speaker 1: on chess really quickly. Again, Chess a much later game 843 00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:04,879 Speaker 1: than anything else we've discussed here. First millennium CE came 844 00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:08,200 Speaker 1: out of India and it still commands a global following today. 845 00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:11,200 Speaker 1: And it's even though it's not as as ancient as 846 00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:13,439 Speaker 1: these other games, it's still pretty old. And it's really 847 00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:18,520 Speaker 1: impressive that chess remains such a standard of strategic board games, 848 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:20,560 Speaker 1: you know, like it is. I mean, it is kind 849 00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:23,000 Speaker 1: of the gold standard. I mean, I think it's one 850 00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:25,720 Speaker 1: of those games that doesn't really need much fluff because 851 00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:29,640 Speaker 1: it's mechanics are so solid that it is, uh, there 852 00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:31,719 Speaker 1: is such a thing. I mean, I think again we 853 00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:33,840 Speaker 1: should acknowledge we've sort of been hinting at this that 854 00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:38,400 Speaker 1: it's pretty clear that some games are just inherently better 855 00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:41,120 Speaker 1: than others mechanically. I mean, there's this such a thing 856 00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:44,919 Speaker 1: as a much more balanced game that's uh, that does 857 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:48,000 Speaker 1: better at allowing different types of strategy and thus makes 858 00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:51,160 Speaker 1: it more interesting because they are more different ways you 859 00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,320 Speaker 1: can achieve a win. There are other games that are 860 00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:56,760 Speaker 1: that are I think just sort of easier to hack. 861 00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:59,759 Speaker 1: I think that's the thing that that makes for a 862 00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:02,160 Speaker 1: bad game. A game that's easy to hack, can you 863 00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:05,080 Speaker 1: break the game, or a game that requires no skill 864 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:08,000 Speaker 1: at all, of course, but among games that require a skill, 865 00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:10,440 Speaker 1: if there's a way to hack it so that if 866 00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:12,439 Speaker 1: you just know a certain strategy you can pretty much 867 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,719 Speaker 1: always win, that game becomes less interesting. Tick Tack Toe 868 00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:17,400 Speaker 1: is a good example of that. I mean, if you 869 00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:19,560 Speaker 1: know how to play, and you go first, you can 870 00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:22,279 Speaker 1: always either win or be forced to a draw, right. 871 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:25,759 Speaker 1: I think another similar example is Apples to Apples, which 872 00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:28,440 Speaker 1: can be a fun game. I'm not anti Apples to Apples, 873 00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,000 Speaker 1: but if one person does not want to play, if 874 00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:33,359 Speaker 1: one person wants to break the game, they will break it. 875 00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:36,319 Speaker 1: That's breaking in the opposite way. Yeah, breaking by like 876 00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:39,880 Speaker 1: not uh having a strategy that just always wins, but 877 00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:43,320 Speaker 1: breaking by ruining it for everybody. Right though, most games 878 00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,399 Speaker 1: that involve most games that involve any kind of like, 879 00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:49,880 Speaker 1: I don't know, intelligent input or verbal input by the player, 880 00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:52,520 Speaker 1: I feel it can be like that. It seems to me. 881 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:54,880 Speaker 1: I'm not I don't have as much experience with D 882 00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:56,960 Speaker 1: and D as you do, but it seems to be 883 00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:01,160 Speaker 1: Dungeons and Dragons is clearly a game where one bad 884 00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:04,880 Speaker 1: player can completely ruin the game. Well yeah, there's such 885 00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:07,560 Speaker 1: a social context with Dungeons and Dragons. Um. I was 886 00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:09,680 Speaker 1: talking to this with with one of the gamers I 887 00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:12,480 Speaker 1: played with recently about the idea of competitive Dungeons and 888 00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:15,800 Speaker 1: Dragons and how there there have been some efforts to 889 00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:20,640 Speaker 1: create sort of the I wouldn't necessarily say a limited 890 00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:22,960 Speaker 1: rule set, but certainly a system in which you could 891 00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:26,839 Speaker 1: have competitive game playing between characters, and then you can 892 00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:29,600 Speaker 1: also I guess there are some of the older like 893 00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:34,560 Speaker 1: really fierce dungeons that can be used as a competitive environment. 894 00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:36,840 Speaker 1: But for the most part, you're not going to see 895 00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:40,520 Speaker 1: games of Dungeons and dragons on say ESPN six or whatever. 896 00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:43,600 Speaker 1: But you will see games of Magic the Gathering on 897 00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:45,600 Speaker 1: there because Magic the Gathering is is more of a 898 00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:48,399 Speaker 1: traditional game. It is a traditional card game that has 899 00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:51,960 Speaker 1: hard fast rules and uh and does not have this 900 00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:55,200 Speaker 1: social role playing element to it. Another example, and this 901 00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:56,680 Speaker 1: is one we have a whole episode of stuff to 902 00:47:56,680 --> 00:48:00,799 Speaker 1: blow your mind about, but Werewolf is a high social game. 903 00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:03,640 Speaker 1: And certainly if if you if you were playing Werewolf 904 00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:05,959 Speaker 1: with people that were not on board with it. Uh 905 00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:08,760 Speaker 1: and I don't even like to imagine people of that caliber, 906 00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:11,040 Speaker 1: but if they were trying to play a game with 907 00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:13,200 Speaker 1: people who are not into it, um, you know it 908 00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:14,840 Speaker 1: would it would wreck the game. You just wouldn't be 909 00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:18,160 Speaker 1: able to play Werewolf. Absolutely, one obnoxious player will ruin 910 00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:21,520 Speaker 1: the experience. Now I mentioned earlier, you know what happens 911 00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:23,919 Speaker 1: when an invasive games game comes in and it's better 912 00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:27,040 Speaker 1: than what you have. One example of that is the 913 00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:30,840 Speaker 1: Viking game tablet uh. This is one of the Norse 914 00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:35,400 Speaker 1: taffle games from the fourth through twelve centuries, probably based 915 00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:40,680 Speaker 1: on the earlier Roman game Lutus latron cooler ruma, and 916 00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:42,960 Speaker 1: it was replaced by chess in the twelfth century. So 917 00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:45,960 Speaker 1: basically they found chess and they're like, whoa, this is 918 00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:49,200 Speaker 1: way better than this thing. Let's just switch to chess, 919 00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:51,920 Speaker 1: and they did. Now that makes it interesting also because 920 00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:57,680 Speaker 1: that suggests that certain games occupy certain almost like ecological 921 00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:00,880 Speaker 1: niches within culture if they can be placed like that, 922 00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:05,040 Speaker 1: because one game obviously does not displace all other games. 923 00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:07,640 Speaker 1: You know, a new game doesn't come in and say, 924 00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:09,879 Speaker 1: now this is the only game people play and all 925 00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:13,000 Speaker 1: other games are gone. It can it can beat out 926 00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:16,160 Speaker 1: certain games, and it's it makes it suggest that, like 927 00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,960 Speaker 1: there's an ecosystem of play and that certain games feel 928 00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:23,080 Speaker 1: so certain roles within that and that if another game 929 00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:25,960 Speaker 1: comes in and feels that particular role better than that 930 00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:29,080 Speaker 1: game will win out. But you you wouldn't see chess 931 00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:33,440 Speaker 1: replacing foot racing, you know. Yeah, yeah, there's a certain 932 00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:36,800 Speaker 1: place in your culture, in your life, maybe even daily 933 00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:41,040 Speaker 1: or weekly life, that this game can occupy. And if 934 00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:44,040 Speaker 1: something fits that fits that that role better, then yeah, 935 00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:46,239 Speaker 1: it's going to take over. It also suggests that there 936 00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:49,920 Speaker 1: are different kinds of fun, and that certain games elicit 937 00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:53,200 Speaker 1: one particular type of fun but not another one, so 938 00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:56,520 Speaker 1: they'll be in competition for that limited fun resource that 939 00:49:56,560 --> 00:50:00,400 Speaker 1: people have to give. As one consequence of thing like this, 940 00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:03,959 Speaker 1: I've sometimes wondered, like, Okay, how much overlap is there 941 00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:06,759 Speaker 1: between the demand for board games and the demand for 942 00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:11,800 Speaker 1: video games. Will video games ever completely replace board games? 943 00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:14,640 Speaker 1: What's it's been interesting to to sort of watch this 944 00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:17,600 Speaker 1: play out right, because today we have so many amazing 945 00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:21,560 Speaker 1: video games. Uh, there's just you know there the graphics, 946 00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:24,040 Speaker 1: the complexity, the different types of video games. And at 947 00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:27,360 Speaker 1: the same time, look at the board game renaissance that 948 00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:29,520 Speaker 1: we're living in, where there's living in a golden age 949 00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:32,120 Speaker 1: of you can go out and you can find so 950 00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:36,320 Speaker 1: many different types of competitive game, strategic games, cooperative games, 951 00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:40,640 Speaker 1: games that mix competition and cooperation, games with a million 952 00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:43,919 Speaker 1: different varieties of fluff to them, games for for old 953 00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:47,320 Speaker 1: people with young people, different levels of rural complexity. Games 954 00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:50,440 Speaker 1: and you know that certainly have some basis in video 955 00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:54,160 Speaker 1: game design, Like there's certain communication between the two worlds 956 00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:57,439 Speaker 1: for sure, but there's there's just there's just so much 957 00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:01,160 Speaker 1: out there. Like clearly, board games for ill something in 958 00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:06,680 Speaker 1: our lives that a video game cannot quite handle. Yeah, 959 00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:09,399 Speaker 1: one clear example is that board games have some kind 960 00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:13,359 Speaker 1: of social element that's um, I don't want to say 961 00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:16,360 Speaker 1: more mainstream, because that's not necessarily it, but the social 962 00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:20,920 Speaker 1: element that's more acceptable among certain kinds of social uh 963 00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:24,000 Speaker 1: settings than video games do. Like I can see there 964 00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:26,319 Speaker 1: are people who would be into going over to a 965 00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:29,000 Speaker 1: friend's house for a board game night, but who would 966 00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:31,600 Speaker 1: not be going into going over to a friend's house 967 00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:34,239 Speaker 1: for a video game night. Well, right, I remember going 968 00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:36,600 Speaker 1: over to like people's places and they're playing rock Band, 969 00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:39,720 Speaker 1: and that's a that's a game where you work together, 970 00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:42,520 Speaker 1: you play it together with other people. But everybody where's 971 00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:45,160 Speaker 1: everybody looking, they're looking at the screen. It's just it 972 00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:47,719 Speaker 1: was kind of a sad site. But you go over 973 00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:50,520 Speaker 1: and you play a board game together, uh, and you're 974 00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:53,439 Speaker 1: you're facing each other, you end up hating each other 975 00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:56,360 Speaker 1: depending on the game, right, But but then you have 976 00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:59,200 Speaker 1: this interface between you. It's this this thing that's bringing 977 00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:01,399 Speaker 1: it together. And so only video games can be very 978 00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:05,040 Speaker 1: social there are some wonderful online communities built up around these, 979 00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:10,160 Speaker 1: but the board game is ah it facilitates a more 980 00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:13,520 Speaker 1: of a physical in person connection. You know. It is 981 00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:17,760 Speaker 1: people who would otherwise not gather around a table uh 982 00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:21,000 Speaker 1: and have anything to talk about, can gather around the 983 00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:24,359 Speaker 1: right game and and they're good to go. After all 984 00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:27,000 Speaker 1: this discussion, I'm kind of interested in coming back to 985 00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:29,280 Speaker 1: the question we started with. I don't know if we've 986 00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:32,399 Speaker 1: answered this, but to think a little bit more about, 987 00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:35,680 Speaker 1: now that we looked at these games, what is the 988 00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:38,480 Speaker 1: what is the role these games are playing in the 989 00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:41,840 Speaker 1: biological impulse toward play? Again, we know that we haven't 990 00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:45,280 Speaker 1: fully answered the question of why play exists among animals 991 00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:47,719 Speaker 1: like us, But they're all these theories that maybe it 992 00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:51,320 Speaker 1: signals reproductive fitness, that maybe it helps teach us skills 993 00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:53,800 Speaker 1: we need later in life. Maybe it helps and makes 994 00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:56,279 Speaker 1: us make us more versatile, you know, things like that. 995 00:52:57,360 --> 00:53:01,720 Speaker 1: Where do board games fit into these theories, if, if anywhere? Indeed, 996 00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:03,520 Speaker 1: I hope this is there's a question that people will 997 00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:06,359 Speaker 1: take with them as they go on to inevitably play 998 00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:10,280 Speaker 1: board games with their friends, with family, with co workers, 999 00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:13,719 Speaker 1: with strangers. However, you want to do it. Um. And 1000 00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:15,640 Speaker 1: certainly if you weren't planning to play a board game, 1001 00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:18,120 Speaker 1: maybe consider picking one up or pulling one out of 1002 00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:21,400 Speaker 1: the closet. As we get to close out here, UH, 1003 00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:23,960 Speaker 1: we always want to thank Scott Benjamin for helping us 1004 00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:27,800 Speaker 1: out with research on these episodes. Scott brought a number 1005 00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:31,360 Speaker 1: of cool board game facts and uh and lists to 1006 00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:34,920 Speaker 1: our to our attention, including a couple of world records 1007 00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:36,920 Speaker 1: that are interesting to look at in light of everything 1008 00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:40,240 Speaker 1: we've discussed. So one of them is the largest collection 1009 00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:43,560 Speaker 1: of board games as of two thousand and eleven, according 1010 00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:45,600 Speaker 1: to the Guinness Book of World Records. It was one 1011 00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:49,880 Speaker 1: Uh Jeff Bossby's in the United States with one thousand 1012 00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:52,640 Speaker 1: and thirty one different board games. You know that's too 1013 00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:56,000 Speaker 1: many board games? Sorry, I don't know. I don't want 1014 00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:58,880 Speaker 1: to be judgmental, but like, can you really play all those? 1015 00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:04,480 Speaker 1: And it sounds doable, it's not improbable. Um. And then 1016 00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:08,080 Speaker 1: the longest marathon playing a board game. Uh. This was 1017 00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:13,040 Speaker 1: from two thousand, seventeen eighty hours, achieved by four participants 1018 00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:15,760 Speaker 1: in the Netherlands. Uh. And this was from January three 1019 00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:18,560 Speaker 1: through the sixth seventeen. They played a total of four 1020 00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:23,400 Speaker 1: hundred games of Gunzen Board Game of the Goose during 1021 00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:26,320 Speaker 1: the eighty hour marathon. That sounds like too many games 1022 00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:28,239 Speaker 1: of Gonsen board. Yeah, I mean you could have fit 1023 00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:33,279 Speaker 1: like three games of Arkham Harror instead. So I'm sorry, 1024 00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:37,680 Speaker 1: I'm getting old finger wagon. Um. I love Go Home Guys, 1025 00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:40,160 Speaker 1: I kid Arkham her, I love Arkham Hart, but I've 1026 00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:44,640 Speaker 1: also never completed a game of Arkham harr Um. So anyway, 1027 00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:48,560 Speaker 1: just a couple of Guinness World records to help close 1028 00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:51,399 Speaker 1: out these two episodes on games, I just had one 1029 00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:55,520 Speaker 1: more thought about thinking about the role of board games 1030 00:54:55,560 --> 00:55:00,279 Speaker 1: among the biological category of play, and maybe a way 1031 00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:02,880 Speaker 1: of approaching the question of what role they serve or 1032 00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:05,200 Speaker 1: what they What the real essence is is to think 1033 00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:09,560 Speaker 1: about what makes a board game not fun? Like that 1034 00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:12,480 Speaker 1: that might help us come in on it. So one 1035 00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:15,680 Speaker 1: thing that's definitely not fun is when board games are 1036 00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:20,040 Speaker 1: too easy to win, right when or when there's no 1037 00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:22,439 Speaker 1: skill involved, Like I mean, I guess little kids enjoy 1038 00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:25,080 Speaker 1: playing candy Land, but just general like roll the dice 1039 00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:27,520 Speaker 1: and move your pieces and have no skill involved, that's 1040 00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:33,160 Speaker 1: not fun, not for not for growing and advanced players. Um. Likewise, 1041 00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:35,800 Speaker 1: I one frustration I've had with certain games, and I 1042 00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:39,040 Speaker 1: won't name them, is when I've played a game where 1043 00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:43,280 Speaker 1: there were too many ways to win, like it was there. 1044 00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:46,239 Speaker 1: I like having a certain amount of complexity, like it's 1045 00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:48,319 Speaker 1: neat when you have like a doom counter and you 1046 00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:50,400 Speaker 1: know there are several different things going on at once. 1047 00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:53,000 Speaker 1: But there was at least one game I've played and 1048 00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:55,600 Speaker 1: I just it was like there were five different ways 1049 00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:58,160 Speaker 1: to win it, and I wasn't sure what I was 1050 00:55:58,160 --> 00:56:01,560 Speaker 1: supposed to be doing, like how I was supposed to uh, 1051 00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:06,400 Speaker 1: employee strategy. I just felt kind of lost in this system, 1052 00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:09,239 Speaker 1: and I felt like it needed to be It needed 1053 00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:11,920 Speaker 1: to be somewhat simplified, at least for a first play. 1054 00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:14,640 Speaker 1: I know exactly what you mean. At a game night 1055 00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:17,360 Speaker 1: here in the office, I once what We played a 1056 00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:20,360 Speaker 1: game that was some kind of like zombie outbreak setting 1057 00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:22,680 Speaker 1: type game. I've never heard of it before, but it 1058 00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:26,800 Speaker 1: had so many rules. The rule book was like a novel, 1059 00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:29,440 Speaker 1: and there were just so many different things you could 1060 00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:32,240 Speaker 1: do or had to do each turn. And we played 1061 00:56:32,239 --> 00:56:35,120 Speaker 1: this game for like multiple hours and still and we 1062 00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:38,000 Speaker 1: had never figured out how to play by the end. 1063 00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:42,600 Speaker 1: By the time we stopped um, and that is frustrating. 1064 00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:45,439 Speaker 1: That's like, that's not fun. Maybe some people have fun 1065 00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:47,160 Speaker 1: doing that, but I don't, and I think a lot 1066 00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:49,359 Speaker 1: of players don't. So there's also a part of us 1067 00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:52,920 Speaker 1: that desires a game to be concise. Like there's a 1068 00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:56,600 Speaker 1: certain kind of elegance in games that have a small 1069 00:56:56,840 --> 00:57:00,080 Speaker 1: list of rules from which great complexity of game and 1070 00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:03,200 Speaker 1: play emerges. Right. I also like it when a game 1071 00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:08,880 Speaker 1: organically gradually increases the complexity. So there's a there's a 1072 00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:11,960 Speaker 1: game I really like called Fabled Fruit, and it's a 1073 00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:15,440 Speaker 1: it's basically a card game, very kid friendly, and the 1074 00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:18,680 Speaker 1: cards change as you progress. So when they start off, 1075 00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:21,000 Speaker 1: it's very simple. You're trying to collect different fruits to 1076 00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:24,440 Speaker 1: make different essentially smoothies, and each smoothie as a point. 1077 00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:28,480 Speaker 1: But you you you quickly move through the initial cards 1078 00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:30,720 Speaker 1: and you get in in. The more you play the game, 1079 00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:35,160 Speaker 1: the more complex the mechanics of the cards becomes. But 1080 00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:36,960 Speaker 1: but you're gonna work up to that, Like, you just 1081 00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:40,360 Speaker 1: work up to that point by virtue of playing the game. 1082 00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:43,200 Speaker 1: And I think that's just a rather clever mechanic. Even 1083 00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:45,360 Speaker 1: if you may never even get to the later cards. 1084 00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:48,560 Speaker 1: You know, I certainly haven't playing it with my son, 1085 00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:50,720 Speaker 1: but he loves playing it at the level we're at, 1086 00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:52,880 Speaker 1: and it's comforting knowing that we could keep playing it 1087 00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:55,800 Speaker 1: and it would just get more complicated, but he would 1088 00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:58,440 Speaker 1: be able to roll with it via the experience of 1089 00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:01,040 Speaker 1: playing with it at lower levels. I love that. Yeah, 1090 00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:04,080 Speaker 1: the games with a what what what do you call 1091 00:58:04,160 --> 00:58:06,800 Speaker 1: a slow learning curve or whatever? The games that are 1092 00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:10,480 Speaker 1: easy to pick up and difficult to master. That seems 1093 00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:12,880 Speaker 1: like the sweet spot of what a game should be. 1094 00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:15,520 Speaker 1: If it's really great like that, you know that there 1095 00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:18,480 Speaker 1: is a lot of skill and strategy involved if you 1096 00:58:18,560 --> 00:58:21,320 Speaker 1: know what you're doing, But also it's not impossible to 1097 00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:24,600 Speaker 1: just get going and understand how the game works. All right, 1098 00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:27,840 Speaker 1: when we're gonna close it off there. But obviously you've 1099 00:58:27,840 --> 00:58:31,080 Speaker 1: all played board games or and or card games and 1100 00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:34,040 Speaker 1: various other games that fall under this loose category, and 1101 00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:35,880 Speaker 1: we would love to hear from you about them. What 1102 00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:38,880 Speaker 1: are your favorites, what are your least favorites? Uh? Hey, 1103 00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:42,200 Speaker 1: have any of you played some variation on the ancient 1104 00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:46,080 Speaker 1: games that we've discussed here. The proposed rule systems are 1105 00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:49,920 Speaker 1: out there. You can find proposed rules for er UH 1106 00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:53,360 Speaker 1: and Senate online. So if you've done that, let us 1107 00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:54,760 Speaker 1: know what you thought of them. What was it like 1108 00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:58,160 Speaker 1: to to sit down and play some variation of this 1109 00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:01,080 Speaker 1: this ancient leisure activity. Did it make you feel like 1110 00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:05,160 Speaker 1: a pharaoh? Maybe? So? As always, you can find the 1111 00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:09,160 Speaker 1: other episodes of Invention at at invention pod dot com. 1112 00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:11,640 Speaker 1: UH you'll find links to our social media accounts there. 1113 00:59:11,680 --> 00:59:14,600 Speaker 1: If you want to discuss the show and discuss your 1114 00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:17,680 Speaker 1: favorite board games and on Facebook, head on over to 1115 00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:20,040 Speaker 1: the Stuff to Blow your Mind discussion module. That's where 1116 00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:22,680 Speaker 1: listeners discuss our other shows Stuff to Blow your Mind, 1117 00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:25,200 Speaker 1: but also episodes of Invention. It's a good place to 1118 00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:28,200 Speaker 1: interact with other listeners and also with two of us. 1119 00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:31,360 Speaker 1: Thanks to our friends Scott Benjamin for research assistance on 1120 00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:34,840 Speaker 1: this episode and to our excellent audio producer Tory Harrison. 1121 00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:36,760 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 1122 00:59:36,760 --> 00:59:39,440 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode, during the other to suggest 1123 00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:41,560 Speaker 1: a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 1124 00:59:41,640 --> 01:00:03,040 Speaker 1: you can email us at contact at invention pod dot com.