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Speaker 1: Hey everybody, it's me, Josh. And for this week's Select,

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Speaker 1: I've chosen our 2021 episode on Sacagawea, whose name I

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Speaker 1: learned to pronounce correctly after 45 years on the planet

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Speaker 1: in this very episode. She's one of those figures in

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Speaker 1: American history who's been morphed into more of a folk

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Speaker 1: legend than a real-life person. And I think that's because

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Speaker 1: we round out the contours of historic people so we

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Speaker 1: can teach young kids about them. And that after a while,

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Speaker 1: that kiddified version is all they become in everyone's mind. So,

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Speaker 1: like anyone, there's a lot more to Sacagawea than the

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Speaker 1: average person realizes. But what's most amazing is that we

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Speaker 1: actually know a lot of that stuff about her. It's

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Speaker 1: amazing because not only was she a Native American living

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Speaker 1: at the beginning of the 19th century on the Great Plains,

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Speaker 1: but she was a teenager and a girl. And yet,

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Speaker 1: we know a bunch about her. And what we know

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Speaker 1: adds up to a pretty great person. That's why we

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Speaker 1: named this episode Impressive Teen. Hope you're impressed by her too.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. Hey,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck,

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Speaker 1: and Jerry's over there, and this is Stuff You Should Know.

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Speaker 1: And I can't help but feel that I'm being subtweeted

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Speaker 1: right now.

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Speaker 2: What for? I don't know what that means.

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Speaker 1: Oh, it's where you talk about somebody without directly talking

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Speaker 1: about them. You just kind of maybe talk about their behavior,

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Speaker 1: how you disapprove of something that they did, but you

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Speaker 1: don't directly say this person did this and I don't

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Speaker 1: like it.

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Speaker 3: You know, I, uh, one time, I don't know all

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Speaker 3: this lingo with the Twitter cause I was never on it.

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Speaker 3: And I was emailing with Jonathan Colton, musician, Jonathan Colton

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Speaker 3: about coming on movie crush. And I can't remember what

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Speaker 3: I said, but he said something, something don't at me.

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Speaker 3: And I didn't know what that meant. And I was like,

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, I'm sorry. I'm not sure what I did. Uh,

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Speaker 3: I don't know. I apologize if I did something wrong.

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Speaker 3: And I think he was kind of.

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Speaker 2: Like, who is this idiot?

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Speaker 1: Hodgman likes this guy.

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Speaker 3: And I think don't– I mean, doesn't that just mean

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Speaker 3: you're tagging someone on Twitter or something?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but usually it means like you're telling them that

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Speaker 1: they got something wrong or you disagree with what they

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Speaker 1: said or they should be ashamed of what they said.

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Speaker 1: It's usually a hostile thing that you're adding somebody. Or you're– yeah,

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Speaker 1: they don't– they're– They have made their point and they

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Speaker 1: don't want to hear any feedback from you about it.

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Speaker 1: That's kind of what I took from it. And you

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Speaker 1: have to like kind of snap a few times when

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Speaker 1: you say it.

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Speaker 3: I'm just really so thankful still that I never joined Twitter.

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Speaker 3: That's the last thing I need. I'm already on Facebook,

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Speaker 3: which is terrible. I've been enjoying Instagram, I have to say.

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Speaker 3: That seems like a pretty nice crowd.

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Speaker 1: Totally different place. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: But, you know, we're talking about all this because we're

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Speaker 3: talking about Sacagawea.

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Speaker 1: Yes, we are.

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Speaker 2: Naturally.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, naturally. Who would probably eschew both Instagram and Twitter

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Speaker 1: because she seems like a pretty solid human being.

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Speaker 2: She'd be like, don't at me.

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Speaker 1: That's right. So just to get this done out of

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Speaker 1: the gate, again, I thought that her name was pronounced Sacajawea.

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Speaker 1: I am not like in the minority in the United States,

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Speaker 1: at least, because that's how we were raised to say

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Speaker 1: her name. Unfortunately, we have such things as historians and

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Speaker 1: people who listen to Native Americans who have been told

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Speaker 1: over the years, no, it's not Sacagawea, it's Sacagawea, right?

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Speaker 1: There's one pronunciation of it. But it's not ja, it's ga.

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Speaker 1: And we've started to kind of pronounce her name correctly.

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Speaker 1: You say it way better than me. So why don't

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Speaker 1: you take it?

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean, gosh, this is the third time now

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Speaker 3: we're on this. I've seen different things from Sacagawea to Sacagawea.

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Speaker 3: I think in Clark's journal, William Clark, that is of

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Speaker 3: Lewis and Clark fame, spelled it S-A-H-K-A-H, emphasis on that, G-A-R-W-E-A.

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Speaker 3: So Sacagawea or Sacagawea. But then the Shoshone, which is

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Speaker 3: a Native American tribe that– well, we'll get to the

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Speaker 3: importance there– They say, actually, it is S-A-C-A-J-A-W-E-A, and it

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Speaker 3: means boat pusher, not the Hidatsa language of bird woman.

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Speaker 2: So there is some debate.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. One thing that I did see is that Lewis

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Speaker 1: and Clark– and they factor in this because Sacagawea was

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Speaker 1: the main guide and interpreter as they pushed further westward–

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Speaker 1: they actually tried to spell every Indian or Native American

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Speaker 1: word that they encountered phonetically as best they could. They

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Speaker 1: were terrible spellers even of English words. I mean, just

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Speaker 1: like barely literate, it seemed like. But they tried their best. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's really bad. But they tried to spell every word

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Speaker 1: that they found phonetically. And I think Sacagawea's... name appears

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Speaker 1: 17 different times in both of their journals. And not

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Speaker 1: once do they spell that third syllable, guh, with a

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Speaker 1: J sound, with a J. It's always a G. And

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Speaker 1: they think that it was a hard G so that

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Speaker 1: it's Sacagawea, not Sacagawea.

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Speaker 2: So they said it's definitely Gif and not Jif.

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Speaker 1: Right. Which it is definitely Gif, as we all know.

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Speaker 2: So if you listen to the Lewis and Clark episode,

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Speaker 2: was it a two-parter? I feel like it was.

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Speaker 1: It was not. It was not? Wow. You're thinking of

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Speaker 1: the Evel Knievel episode.

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Speaker 2: God, it's so embarrassing. You always bring that up to

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Speaker 2: shame me, I think.

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Speaker 1: It shames both of us and Jerry to a certain

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Speaker 1: extent as well for letting that one through.

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Speaker 2: She could have stepped in and been like, for God's sakes,

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Speaker 2: what are you doing?

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Speaker 1: Totally. Consolidate, man.

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Speaker 2: So a great episode, though.

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Speaker 3: I know in that episode we talked a bit, obviously,

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Speaker 3: about Chicago Way and Ken Burns and his great documentary

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Speaker 3: about the Corps of Discovery. But she was born, she

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Speaker 3: lived a short life, and there is a little controversy

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Speaker 3: on how long she did live, which we'll get to

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Speaker 3: at the end. But she was born in either 1788

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Speaker 3: or 89 as a member of the LEMHI, is what

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Speaker 3: I'm going to say.

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Speaker 2: L-E-M-H-I, Band of The Shoshone tribe, which we spoke about

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Speaker 2: a minute ago.

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Speaker 1: Is it Shoshone or Shoshone?

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Speaker 2: Shoshone? Is it Shoshone?

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Speaker 1: That's what I've always heard. But then again, I always

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Speaker 1: heard it was Sacagawea, too.

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Speaker 2: I know.

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Speaker 1: I believe it's Shoshone.

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Speaker 3: She grew up, though, in a very, I imagine, lovely,

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Speaker 3: lovely part of the country in what is now Idaho

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Speaker 3: in the Salmon River region.

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Speaker 1: Yes. So she was actually a member of a specific

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Speaker 1: band of the Lemhe Shoshone tribe. The salmon eaters is

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Speaker 1: what they were called. And she grew up in that

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Speaker 1: part of Idaho. I guess it was around the Bitterroot

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Speaker 1: Mountains near the Continental Divide. And the Bitterroots are part

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Speaker 1: of the Rockies. But, yeah, it just sounds absolutely gorgeous.

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Speaker 1: The Shoshone tribe was enemies to the Hidatsa, who you

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Speaker 1: mentioned earlier. And the reason that they say that Sacagawea

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Speaker 1: means bird woman is because Sacagawea became an involuntary member

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Speaker 1: of the Hidatsa tribe when she was around 12 years old.

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Speaker 1: I didn't get if she was out on a buffalo

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Speaker 1: hunt or if the Hidatsa happened to be out on

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Speaker 1: a buffalo hunt and came across her. Did you understand that?

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure.

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Speaker 3: I kind of just in my mind thought that they

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Speaker 3: were out, but I guess it doesn't really matter because

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Speaker 3: either way she was kidnapped.

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Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 3: And settled with them near what is now Bismarck, North Dakota.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And here's where her.

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Speaker 3: Life took a– or I guess that event actually took

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Speaker 3: her life in a very different direction. And that was

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Speaker 3: a trading center, an international trading center. So people from

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Speaker 3: all over the world would kind of stop through there

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Speaker 3: to trade their wares. And she was essentially– I mean,

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Speaker 3: it's hard to not say kidnapped again. A French-Canadian fur trader,

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Speaker 3: Toussaint Charbonneau.

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Speaker 1: Beautiful.

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Speaker 2: Took her as property. He called her his wife.

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Speaker 3: But we can't, you know, now through today's lens, we've

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Speaker 3: gotten a lot better about not glossing over that stuff.

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Speaker 3: She was property to him. She was a teenager, I

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Speaker 3: think like 16 or 17.

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Speaker 1: Not even, I think she was actually 15.

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Speaker 2: Oh, was she?

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Speaker 3: And she was about two decades younger than him. And

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Speaker 3: there's no other way to say it other than she

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Speaker 3: was property. And part of being property was that she

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Speaker 3: was raped by Charbonneau.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Like there's no way you can put it that

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Speaker 1: like she didn't have any say in the matter of

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Speaker 1: whether they had sex. So like it's just that's rape

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Speaker 1: no matter what. But yeah, over the years, like she's

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Speaker 1: always been referred to as one of his wives because

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Speaker 1: I guess Americans didn't want to kind of confront that stuff,

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Speaker 1: you know? So she ends up living among the Hadatsa

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Speaker 1: as Charbonneau's wife slash property because Charbonneau being a fur

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Speaker 1: trader and the Hadatsa settlement that they lived at being

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Speaker 1: this kind of international trading post, he had kind of

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Speaker 1: adopted like the Hadassah way of living himself. Just being

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Speaker 1: a fur trader, he had to be able to handle

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Speaker 1: himself out in the elements. So I think it kind of,

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Speaker 1: it was his speed. From what I gathered for the

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Speaker 1: rest of his life, he just basically lived in a

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Speaker 1: style similar to Native American's. So she– aside from being

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Speaker 1: away from her native tribe, she lived probably fairly– in

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Speaker 1: a fairly cosmopolitan manner compared to how she would have

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Speaker 1: had she never been kidnapped from the Lemhi band of Shoshones,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of sad. But there's one thing that

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Speaker 1: should be said. There's documentary opinion that she was– she

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Speaker 1: was not unhappy living on this kind of this border

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Speaker 1: land between the two cultures. Like she, she seemed to

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Speaker 1: feel somewhat comfortable living among, you know, the, the colonizers

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Speaker 1: way of life on the frontier. It just as much

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Speaker 1: as she did living among the Shoshone. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And we should also point out that a lot of

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Speaker 3: this is very little is recorded. A lot of speculative information. because,

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Speaker 3: you know, there's remarkable, well, I guess not remarkable because

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Speaker 3: it was 1803, but very little actual recorded information about

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Speaker 3: her life.

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Speaker 1: But it's remarkable how much there is for the typical

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Speaker 1: teenage Native American girl at the time. Like the fact

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Speaker 1: that there's anything recorded about her is kind of a

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Speaker 1: huge testimony to her and her personality.

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Speaker 2: No, absolutely. So 1803 is when.

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Speaker 3: Charbonneau takes control of her life. 1803 is also when

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Speaker 3: Thomas Jefferson said, hey, we got this big tract of land,

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Speaker 3: really sweet deal called the Louisiana Purchase, 828,000 square miles

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Speaker 3: of land stretching from the Canadian border to the Gulf

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Speaker 3: of Mexico, from the Mississippi to Colorado. And we need

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Speaker 3: to go see what's out there because White people have

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Speaker 3: never explored this territory. I want to find a Northwest Passage,

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Speaker 3: which was eventually found. They were looking in the wrong place.

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Speaker 3: But that's what they were sort of after. But they

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Speaker 3: were after more. Jefferson really wanted to know what was

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Speaker 3: out there, the landscape.

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Speaker 2: He wanted maps.

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Speaker 3: He wanted to know about the Native American tribes. He

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Speaker 3: wanted to know about the plant life and the animal

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Speaker 3: life and just like go uh, Meriwether Lewis out there

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Speaker 3: and record everything you can.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Meriwether Lewis was, um, Jefferson's personal secretary and Lewis, um, selected, um,

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Speaker 1: what was Clark's first name?

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Speaker 2: Josh? Billy.

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Speaker 1: William. William Clark. Billy Clark. Um, as who had been his, uh,

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Speaker 1: captain in, um, the army as the leader of the expedition.

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Speaker 1: He found him to be an able leader and said, Hey,

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Speaker 1: you want to come lead this super high prestige, um,

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Speaker 1: expedition for the president that the entire nation is going

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Speaker 1: to be watching. And Clark said, sure, let's do it.

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Speaker 1: So Lewis and Clark set out, um, on this expedition

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Speaker 1: and they actually traveled, I think 1600 miles before they

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Speaker 1: ended up, um, in at that, uh, Hidatsa settlement, um,

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Speaker 1: which is about where they really started to hit the

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Speaker 1: frontier from what I understand.

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Speaker 2: All right. That sounds like a great turning point to

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Speaker 2: take a break.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 3: So we'll be back right after this and pick up

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Speaker 3: with the meeting of Lewis and Clark and Sacagawea.

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Speaker 1: Stuff you should know. Josh and Chuck. Stuff you should know. Okay, Chuck,

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Speaker 1: so we've reached what is now today Bismarck, North Dakota.

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Speaker 2: South Dakota.

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Speaker 1: South Dakota. You sure?

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Speaker 2: I think so.

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Speaker 1: No, it's– Is that not right? Yeah, it's Bismarck, North Dakota.

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Speaker 2: Are there two?

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Speaker 1: I was going to say it almost literally doesn't matter.

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Speaker 2: We're going to get crushed for this.

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Speaker 1: It is. No, it's definitely Bismarck, North Dakota.

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Speaker 2: Okay. Then that was a misprint then in the.

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you what, get this. I've got this machine

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Speaker 1: called the Computor.

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Speaker 2: Are you actually going to look it up?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going to look it up. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: do a favor for the people of Bismarck for once. Bismarck,

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Speaker 1: North Dakota.

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Speaker 2: I think it's North Dakota.

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Speaker 1: It is.

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Speaker 2: That's weird because I think this is from How Stuff Works.

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Speaker 2: They've got South Dakota written in there. Oh, boy.

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Speaker 1: All right. We'll have to send an email.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to at them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Don't you know that's the tagline of How Stuff Works?

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Speaker 1: Don't add us.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 3: So apologies to all the people in both Dakotas, all

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Speaker 3: three Dakotas. We meant nothing by it. And we're going

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Speaker 3: to do a live show there one day to make

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Speaker 3: up for it.

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Speaker 1: Are we?

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Speaker 2: Sure. Why not?

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you later.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: All right.

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Speaker 2: Where are we? It's November 2nd, 1804.

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Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. When they finally land and they meet up with Sacagawea,

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Speaker 3: who is six months pregnant at this point. And Charbonneau is,

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Speaker 3: I get the impression that he's a bit of a,

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Speaker 3: not a grifter maybe, but sort of an opportunist.

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, I think so, for sure. I mean, like,

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Speaker 1: he's a fur trader for Pete's sake. Like, you got

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Speaker 1: to be a little.

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Speaker 1: Like that includes not just survival in the woods and

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Speaker 1: killing animals, but also having to, you know, get the

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Speaker 1: highest price you can for your pelts. So I'm guessing

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Speaker 1: there's a bit of used car salesman to Charbonneau for sure.

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Speaker 1: And he was not exactly— It seems like it. He

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Speaker 1: was not well-liked by Lewis and Clark. I don't know

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Speaker 1: that he was hated or despised, but I get the

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Speaker 1: impression from reading historians' interpretations of their journal entries about

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Speaker 1: Charbonneau is that he was kind of a cross between—

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Speaker 1: Chris Farley.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: And Gollum, maybe? I can't wait to see that photoshopped.

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Speaker 2: Oh, goodness. Yeah, I know who's going to take care

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Speaker 2: of that for us.

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Speaker 1: So just this idea that this guy was not competent

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Speaker 1: necessarily and was maybe a little bit evil. And that's,

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Speaker 1: you know, all you need to know about Charbonneau. I

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Speaker 1: also get the impression, Chuck, that there was a, you know,

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about later, but there was, Sacagawea was plucked

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Speaker 1: from historic obscurity. And really kind of raised up on

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Speaker 1: this pedestal. And I think rightly so. But there was

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Speaker 1: a sport that developed alongside of that where you could

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Speaker 1: very easily raise Sacagawea up by contrasting her to her good-for-nothing, slave-holding, quote, husband.

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Speaker 1: And showing how just terrible he was at everything. It

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Speaker 1: made her look all the much better. So I think

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Speaker 1: there's a sport to it. There's kind of a long

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Speaker 1: history of putting down Charbonneau. Um, but I think that

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Speaker 1: it's kind of rooted in fact, from what I understand.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So at any rate, he comes along and he's like, Hey,

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Speaker 3: you guys really need to bring me along. And, uh,

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Speaker 3: and my wife, uh, slash property here. Um, I speak

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Speaker 3: Hidatsa in French and they're like, we don't really need that,

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Speaker 3: but I see that Sakagaway speaks Shoshone and we really

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Speaker 3: need to learn that because at a certain point, we're

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Speaker 3: going to need to talk to them to get some horses.

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Speaker 3: And since we can't hire a woman because it's 1803,

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Speaker 3: we have to actually hire the husband to get her

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Speaker 3: to come along.

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Speaker 2: I guess you both can come.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So, like, we got to explain why Sacagawea being

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Speaker 1: Shoshone was really important. And it was, like you said,

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Speaker 1: those horses. Somehow, I'm not exactly sure how they already

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Speaker 1: knew this because these are the first Americans to chart

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Speaker 1: a course westward. But they knew that the— The Missouri

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Speaker 1: River and the Columbia River was separated by mountains, the

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Speaker 1: Rocky Mountains, the Bitterroot Mountains to be specific. And that

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Speaker 1: since they were taking to the river, they were going

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Speaker 1: to need to get from one river to the other.

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Speaker 1: And that the Shoshone Indians happened to live exactly where

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Speaker 1: they needed or where they needed to pass through, where

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Speaker 1: they needed the most help, where they needed horses. And

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Speaker 1: so having a Shoshone along to help broker a deal

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Speaker 1: would be incredibly useful. So useful, in fact, that the

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Speaker 1: arrangement was going to be that when they finally met

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Speaker 1: up with the Shoshone tribe in this area where they

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Speaker 1: needed the horses the most, Sacagawea was going to speak

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Speaker 1: to the Shoshones. And then she was going to translate

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Speaker 1: what the Shoshones said into Hidatsa to Charbonneau. Sure. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Charbonneau was going to translate from Hadassah into French for

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Speaker 1: a French-speaking member of the Corps of Discovery, who would

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Speaker 1: then translate from French into English for Lewis and Clark.

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Speaker 1: That's how important.

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Speaker 2: Charbonneau didn't even speak English?

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Speaker 1: No, he spoke Hadassah in French.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I thought that meant in addition to English.

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Speaker 1: No, so he did play a role that was important.

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Speaker 1: He was going to translate from Hadassah into French. It

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Speaker 1: would have been way better if he had spoken English,

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Speaker 1: but it just meant another person in the chain. Everything

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Speaker 1: came out purple monkey dishwasher at the end.

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Speaker 3: So one thing we failed to mention, I think, which

357
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Speaker 3: is just remarkable, is that a few, a couple of

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Speaker 3: months before they leave together, Sacagawea has her son, Jean-Baptiste,

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Speaker 3: known as Baptiste. And so, and I know we talked

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Speaker 3: about this in Lewis and Clark, but I think I

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Speaker 3: didn't have a kid at the time. It's just astounding

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Speaker 3: to me now that I've had a two-month-old baby to

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Speaker 3: take and like keeping that baby alive and all the

364
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Speaker 3: comforts of modern-day America, to take a baby like that

365
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Speaker 3: on a voyage like.

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Speaker 2: This is astounding. Yeah, for sure. It's really remarkable.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean, like, if you look at all

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Speaker 1: of the memorials to Sacagawea, I don't think there's one

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Speaker 1: out there that doesn't also show Baptiste as well.

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Speaker 2: Of course not.

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Speaker 1: Not just because he was an adopted honorary member of

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Speaker 1: the Corps of Discovery. Basically a mascot, sure. Yeah. But

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Speaker 1: also because it just goes to point out just how

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Speaker 1: astounding what his mom did was. I think when Sacagawea

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Speaker 1: was put on the dollar coin in the United States

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Speaker 1: in 2000, Hillary Clinton famously referred to her as the

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Speaker 1: original working mom.

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Speaker 2: Wow, that's a pretty cool designation.

379
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Speaker 1: I thought so, too. So, yeah, I think it's great

380
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Speaker 1: that she's remembered as doing all this with a baby

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Speaker 1: strapped to her back the whole time.

382
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Speaker 2: Right. So that's their plan.

383
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Speaker 3: They plan to get there, send her out to talk

384
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Speaker 3: to the Shoshone tribe to get these horses, which was

385
00:21:52,470 --> 00:21:54,899
Speaker 3: a good plan. But it was even way better. It

386
00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,080
Speaker 3: worked out almost like it had been written in a

387
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Speaker 3: movie script or something. Because I think it is Lewis—

388
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Speaker 3: shows up first and has contact with an older woman

389
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Speaker 3: of the tribe. And then about 60 Shoshone on horseback

390
00:22:09,550 --> 00:22:12,649
Speaker 3: ride up. And they're like, you seem like a decent guy.

391
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Speaker 3: You're friendly. Let's all make this work out. Then Clark's

392
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Speaker 3: group shows up about a day later with Sakagaway. And

393
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Speaker 3: they're like, oh, my God, it's you. You were the

394
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Speaker 3: one that was kidnapped and taken away so many years ago.

395
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Speaker 3: And then Chief Kameowate rides up. And it's Sacagawea's brother.

396
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Speaker 1: Yeah. So not only do they get to have this reunion,

397
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Speaker 1: but Lewis and Clark are like, yes, we're going to

398
00:22:41,030 --> 00:22:42,650
Speaker 1: get such a good deal on these horses.

399
00:22:43,230 --> 00:22:44,470
Speaker 2: Yeah.

400
00:22:44,650 --> 00:22:47,629
Speaker 1: The chief is her brother. Like, this is perfect. But

401
00:22:47,650 --> 00:22:49,470
Speaker 1: you know what that stuck out to me as, Chuck?

402
00:22:50,910 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 1: That meant that Sacagawea probably would have met Lewis and

403
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Speaker 1: Clark even if she had never been kidnapped.

404
00:22:59,890 --> 00:23:00,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe so.

405
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Speaker 1: Isn't that really crazy to think like that one way

406
00:23:03,300 --> 00:23:06,119
Speaker 1: or another, she was going to probably meet Lewis and Clark,

407
00:23:07,380 --> 00:23:10,800
Speaker 1: even with her life diverging that radically from its, you know,

408
00:23:11,090 --> 00:23:13,530
Speaker 1: original projected path. Yeah.

409
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Speaker 3: And what it really did was, I mean, she was

410
00:23:16,070 --> 00:23:19,830
Speaker 3: already proving to be useful in that she could identify

411
00:23:19,950 --> 00:23:22,929
Speaker 3: berries and things that you could eat and plants that

412
00:23:22,970 --> 00:23:25,879
Speaker 3: you could use as medicine and kind of acted as

413
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,650
Speaker 3: the The navigator, in a lot of cases, is like, no,

414
00:23:29,690 --> 00:23:31,150
Speaker 3: we need to go this way. I've been here before.

415
00:23:31,170 --> 00:23:31,939
Speaker 2: This is where I grew up.

416
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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a huge, huge rock called Beaverhead Rock that

417
00:23:34,970 --> 00:23:38,359
Speaker 1: she famously recognized that you can go visit and stand

418
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Speaker 1: in the place, basically, where she showed Lewis and Clark, like, look,

419
00:23:42,340 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 1: my people are going to be right around here. I

420
00:23:44,300 --> 00:23:45,260
Speaker 1: recognize this place.

421
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Speaker 3: Yeah, so they've already got all this respect for her

422
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 3: up until that point. And then she has such an

423
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:55,140
Speaker 3: in with the Shoshone community. Like you said, they get,

424
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Speaker 3: I'm sure, a really good deal on the horses. And

425
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,260
Speaker 3: not only that, but they get help. They kind of

426
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,159
Speaker 3: partner up with them to help them along, which is

427
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:01,880
Speaker 3: a really big deal.

428
00:24:01,900 --> 00:24:05,949
Speaker 1: Yeah, because Lewis and Clark's expedition had somewhere in the

429
00:24:05,970 --> 00:24:10,430
Speaker 1: neighborhood of 40 people involved, huge boats, several huge boats,

430
00:24:10,590 --> 00:24:13,970
Speaker 1: lots of equipment, lots of instruments. And some people say, well,

431
00:24:14,050 --> 00:24:16,869
Speaker 1: like if they needed horses, why didn't they bring the horses? Well,

432
00:24:16,890 --> 00:24:20,410
Speaker 1: because they traveled by water. They really needed horses really,

433
00:24:20,450 --> 00:24:23,850
Speaker 1: really badly. Yeah. But just for this one specific part

434
00:24:24,050 --> 00:24:27,119
Speaker 1: of the trip in between the Missouri and the Columbia River,

435
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 1: Thomas Jefferson very famously called it a dilly of a

436
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:35,020
Speaker 1: pickle that they had run into. But the fact that

437
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,180
Speaker 1: they were able to get the horses from the Shoshone,

438
00:24:39,050 --> 00:24:43,149
Speaker 1: it just basically checked this enormous box that the whole

439
00:24:43,310 --> 00:24:48,620
Speaker 1: expedition was predicated on. They could not have completed their

440
00:24:48,650 --> 00:24:54,110
Speaker 1: mission without this. Right. And Sacagawea basically brokered that, made

441
00:24:54,150 --> 00:24:57,189
Speaker 1: sure that box got checked. And there's one other thing

442
00:24:57,230 --> 00:24:59,570
Speaker 1: that stands out about her too that gets overlooked that

443
00:24:59,590 --> 00:25:04,310
Speaker 1: I saw in a few places. Charbonneau had another wife

444
00:25:04,390 --> 00:25:07,670
Speaker 1: who was Shoshone. And if they needed a Shoshone speaker

445
00:25:08,230 --> 00:25:11,820
Speaker 1: who was, you know, with Charbonneau, who came with Charbonneau,

446
00:25:12,740 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 1: they could have very easily gone with Otter Woman, the other,

447
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,850
Speaker 1: I guess, victim of Charbonneau. And they didn't. They went

448
00:25:21,890 --> 00:25:25,710
Speaker 1: with Sacagawea, who, knowing full well that she came with

449
00:25:25,770 --> 00:25:28,530
Speaker 1: an infant now, like there was going to be an infant,

450
00:25:28,910 --> 00:25:31,430
Speaker 1: even though with Otter Woman there wouldn't have been. So

451
00:25:31,590 --> 00:25:34,689
Speaker 1: clearly Sacagawea is like putting out the right kind of vibes.

452
00:25:34,770 --> 00:25:38,730
Speaker 1: It's saying like, I'm extraordinarily competent. You should probably pick me,

453
00:25:39,170 --> 00:25:40,869
Speaker 1: even though if you pick me, I'm going to be

454
00:25:40,930 --> 00:25:45,970
Speaker 1: bringing a newborn baby along on this frontier trek. I

455
00:25:46,010 --> 00:25:51,220
Speaker 1: think that says a lot about the kind of... I guess,

456
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:56,270
Speaker 1: charisma or competence or whatever she was putting out that, that,

457
00:25:56,430 --> 00:25:58,409
Speaker 1: that Lewis and Clark were like, yes, I think she

458
00:25:58,450 --> 00:25:59,510
Speaker 1: would be the better of the two.

459
00:26:00,010 --> 00:26:00,330
Speaker 2: Yeah.

460
00:26:00,390 --> 00:26:03,230
Speaker 3: Because you don't want a two month old baby along.

461
00:26:03,650 --> 00:26:05,609
Speaker 2: No, but if you're cute, but nah.

462
00:26:05,730 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 1: But if you say, okay, we'll have a two month

463
00:26:07,890 --> 00:26:11,060
Speaker 1: baby along, like that says a lot about the mom

464
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,460
Speaker 1: that's carrying the baby around and her abilities are, I think.

465
00:26:15,260 --> 00:26:18,830
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. Um, she also proved her worth when, And

466
00:26:18,850 --> 00:26:20,149
Speaker 2: I can't remember if we– I think we might have

467
00:26:20,190 --> 00:26:20,890
Speaker 2: talked about this.

468
00:26:21,890 --> 00:26:25,310
Speaker 3: When there was a– one of their sailing vessels almost

469
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:30,500
Speaker 3: capsized when a big squall hit it. Apparently Charbonneau was navigating.

470
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 3: He panicked under pressure. And it was Sakagaway who was

471
00:26:35,859 --> 00:26:36,859
Speaker 3: calm and.

472
00:26:37,260 --> 00:26:37,780
Speaker 2: Said, you know what?

473
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:39,899
Speaker 3: We need to get these papers together. We need to

474
00:26:39,940 --> 00:26:42,670
Speaker 3: get the books that we've been writing in, all these

475
00:26:42,790 --> 00:26:46,429
Speaker 3: navigational instruments and medicines and provisions and other stuff. We

476
00:26:46,450 --> 00:26:48,540
Speaker 3: need to get it all together and take care of it. And, oh,

477
00:26:48,580 --> 00:26:55,010
Speaker 3: also this baby. And basically saved that situation. And Charbonneau

478
00:26:55,130 --> 00:26:56,030
Speaker 3: was just, you know.

479
00:26:56,130 --> 00:26:57,669
Speaker 1: He was like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh,

480
00:26:57,690 --> 00:26:58,970
Speaker 1: my God. Oh, my God.

481
00:26:59,410 --> 00:27:00,570
Speaker 2: Sacre bleu. Sacre bleu.

482
00:27:00,810 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: That's right. So, yeah, that's one of the big stories

483
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,820
Speaker 1: that's told about Sacagawea. So much so, I mean, that

484
00:27:08,900 --> 00:27:11,620
Speaker 1: either Lewis or Clark wrote about it and basically was like,

485
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,620
Speaker 1: this Sacagawea is an amazing creature. Like, she's doing stuff

486
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 1: that other members of the Corps are not doing. I mean,

487
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 1: there is, I think, at least 12 members of the

488
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 1: Corps of Discovery who aren't mentioned by name in either

489
00:27:26,900 --> 00:27:29,660
Speaker 1: of the journals of Lewis and Clark throughout the expedition.

490
00:27:30,030 --> 00:27:34,109
Speaker 1: They did work. They did their job, obviously. But they

491
00:27:34,130 --> 00:27:38,010
Speaker 1: didn't get mentioned because they weren't doing stuff like Sacagawea was.

492
00:27:38,470 --> 00:27:41,230
Speaker 1: And I think the fact that she's mentioned multiple times

493
00:27:41,590 --> 00:27:48,149
Speaker 1: with kind of frequently— discussing like just their impressed, how

494
00:27:48,230 --> 00:27:50,820
Speaker 1: impressed they were with her. It says a lot as well.

495
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:52,300
Speaker 2: Yeah.

496
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,640
Speaker 3: I mean, they named because of that sailing incident, they

497
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 3: named a branch of the Missouri river after her. And

498
00:27:58,380 --> 00:28:01,379
Speaker 3: I think Clark was the one who really grew closer

499
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:05,159
Speaker 3: to her. It's really hard to get a read on

500
00:28:05,220 --> 00:28:08,679
Speaker 3: exactly what the nature of their relationship was. It seems

501
00:28:08,770 --> 00:28:14,210
Speaker 3: just like maybe a mentor type of relationship in that he,

502
00:28:14,810 --> 00:28:17,450
Speaker 3: kind of took her under his wing and took these

503
00:28:17,730 --> 00:28:23,270
Speaker 3: long walks with her. I don't think there's anything untoward

504
00:28:23,310 --> 00:28:24,590
Speaker 3: about it is kind of what I'm getting at.

505
00:28:24,650 --> 00:28:26,780
Speaker 1: I don't have that impression either, and I have not

506
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 1: run across a historian that's asserted that there was something

507
00:28:30,380 --> 00:28:31,540
Speaker 1: untoward about it either.

508
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 2: But they were close.

509
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,700
Speaker 1: Yeah, they were. The way I took it was like

510
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:38,420
Speaker 1: an adopted little sister kind of thing.

511
00:28:39,170 --> 00:28:40,550
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's kind of the way I see it too.

512
00:28:40,630 --> 00:28:42,850
Speaker 1: I also don't think Charbonneau would have stood for that.

513
00:28:43,510 --> 00:28:46,050
Speaker 1: I think that would have been— not okay with him

514
00:28:46,690 --> 00:28:48,490
Speaker 1: because he was the kind of guy who'd be like,

515
00:28:48,530 --> 00:28:50,610
Speaker 1: that's my property, you know? Right.

516
00:28:50,670 --> 00:28:51,230
Speaker 2: Well, of course.

517
00:28:51,830 --> 00:28:54,150
Speaker 1: So I, yeah, I don't have that impression, but yeah,

518
00:28:54,210 --> 00:28:56,170
Speaker 1: I thought the same thing, you know, as well.

519
00:28:57,370 --> 00:28:59,210
Speaker 3: Uh, and in fact, they thought so much of her,

520
00:28:59,950 --> 00:29:02,890
Speaker 3: especially Clark that, and this is a really telling thing

521
00:29:03,580 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 3: is that they gave, when they reached the Pacific coast,

522
00:29:06,940 --> 00:29:09,740
Speaker 3: there was a vote on whether or not to stay

523
00:29:09,780 --> 00:29:11,900
Speaker 3: there for the winter or not. And they actually let

524
00:29:11,940 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 3: her vote, which in, The early 1800s, to let a

525
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 3: woman have a vote like that was remarkable.

526
00:29:19,180 --> 00:29:25,010
Speaker 1: Yeah. So when they decided to stay, that vote led

527
00:29:25,090 --> 00:29:29,690
Speaker 1: to them staying in what's now Astoria, Oregon. They build

528
00:29:29,750 --> 00:29:35,530
Speaker 1: a winter quarters called Fort Clatsop after a friendly tribe nearby.

529
00:29:35,550 --> 00:29:39,050
Speaker 1: Fort Clatsop? That's what I thought too, but it's close.

530
00:29:39,230 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 1: There's an L in there. Yeah, Clatsop. But the Clatsop

531
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,820
Speaker 1: people said, hey, get this. There's a beached whale. You

532
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,530
Speaker 1: got to see this thing. It's enormous. And so I

533
00:29:50,570 --> 00:29:52,550
Speaker 1: think Lewis was like, okay, we're going to go check

534
00:29:52,590 --> 00:29:56,030
Speaker 1: this out. You guys stay here. And Sacagawea, I know

535
00:29:56,050 --> 00:29:58,010
Speaker 1: we talked about this in the Lewis and Clark episode.

536
00:29:58,050 --> 00:30:03,580
Speaker 1: Sacagawea said, look, man, I have walked a long ways

537
00:30:03,620 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: and helped you guys out. And the idea that you're

538
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,180
Speaker 1: not going to let me see the ocean, I've never

539
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 1: seen any ocean. You're not going to let me see

540
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 1: the ocean. And this giant whale that's been beached, come on.

541
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 1: And so Lewis relented very famously and was like, okay,

542
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 1: come along. So, so I could go away. I kind of,

543
00:30:19,990 --> 00:30:22,070
Speaker 1: she put her foot down basically and said, no, I'm,

544
00:30:22,290 --> 00:30:25,310
Speaker 1: I'm going to see this. That would be unusually cruel

545
00:30:25,370 --> 00:30:27,620
Speaker 1: not to let me. So She went and saw this

546
00:30:28,060 --> 00:30:30,020
Speaker 1: giant whale. She saw the ocean for the first time.

547
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,500
Speaker 1: I mean, that's a pretty big– I've never seen a

548
00:30:32,550 --> 00:30:35,830
Speaker 1: beached whale. Imagine seeing a beached whale the first time

549
00:30:35,870 --> 00:30:37,010
Speaker 1: you see the ocean too.

550
00:30:37,090 --> 00:30:37,390
Speaker 3: You know?

551
00:30:38,770 --> 00:30:39,070
Speaker 1: Yeah.

552
00:30:39,410 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 3: I remember when I– as a young kid when I–

553
00:30:42,790 --> 00:30:44,930
Speaker 3: we showed my grandmother the ocean for the first time

554
00:30:45,010 --> 00:30:48,310
Speaker 3: and she was in her– geez, she was probably in

555
00:30:48,350 --> 00:30:49,290
Speaker 3: her 70s.

556
00:30:49,330 --> 00:30:50,310
Speaker 2: She lived to be 100.

557
00:30:50,310 --> 00:30:50,650
Speaker 1: Wow.

558
00:30:51,230 --> 00:30:53,030
Speaker 2: So she had to be in her mid-70s when we

559
00:30:53,070 --> 00:30:54,210
Speaker 2: took her to the ocean. Yeah.

560
00:30:54,620 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 3: And we walked her out there, and she walked out

561
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:58,700
Speaker 3: on the beach, I'll never forget it, and.

562
00:30:58,620 --> 00:31:00,340
Speaker 2: Said, ooh, it's big.

563
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 1: That's cute.

564
00:31:02,380 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 2: And that was about it. She didn't hang out for long.

565
00:31:04,260 --> 00:31:06,300
Speaker 1: She's like, oh, I'm good. This was enough.

566
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:08,740
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there was no whale to poke with a stick.

567
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:12,550
Speaker 2: I'm kidding, by the way. You should never do that.

568
00:31:12,850 --> 00:31:13,910
Speaker 1: Poke a whale with a stick?

569
00:31:14,610 --> 00:31:16,670
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was making a joke. That wasn't nice.

570
00:31:16,690 --> 00:31:18,070
Speaker 1: I think everybody knew that, Chuck.

571
00:31:18,510 --> 00:31:19,730
Speaker 2: Yeah, you try and get that whale back in the

572
00:31:19,750 --> 00:31:20,390
Speaker 2: water if you can.

573
00:31:20,490 --> 00:31:21,390
Speaker 1: Not with a stick, though.

574
00:31:22,090 --> 00:31:22,570
Speaker 2: Not with a stick.

575
00:31:23,250 --> 00:31:24,370
Speaker 1: You want to take our second break?

576
00:31:25,490 --> 00:31:27,970
Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll talk about how this all wrapped up and

577
00:31:28,010 --> 00:31:29,650
Speaker 3: what happened to her afterward right after this.

578
00:31:29,670 --> 00:31:40,020
Speaker 1: Stuff you should know. Josh and Chuck. Stuff you should know.

579
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 1: Stuff you should know. Okay, so they made it to

580
00:31:56,860 --> 00:31:59,940
Speaker 1: the Pacific. They overwintered there in, I think, 1805, 1806.

581
00:31:59,940 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 1: And then they started to make their way back. And

582
00:32:04,980 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: they actually went right back to the same Hidatsa settlement,

583
00:32:10,260 --> 00:32:16,180
Speaker 1: that international trading post outside of Bismarck, North Dakota, where

584
00:32:16,220 --> 00:32:20,700
Speaker 1: they picked up Charbonneau and Sacagawea. And they said, hey,

585
00:32:21,090 --> 00:32:24,350
Speaker 1: thanks a lot. We'll see you guys later. And everywhere

586
00:32:24,450 --> 00:32:28,830
Speaker 1: I saw, um, Charbonneau was paid something like $ 500 and

587
00:32:28,830 --> 00:32:34,950
Speaker 1: 33 cents for his efforts. And Sacagawea was not paid anything. Um,

588
00:32:35,330 --> 00:32:38,130
Speaker 1: although I saw also in this article that she was

589
00:32:38,230 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 1: paid as well. What do you, can, do you have

590
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:41,060
Speaker 1: any idea?

591
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:43,510
Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, I was confused too.

592
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,220
Speaker 3: Everywhere else I looked said that she did not get

593
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:46,979
Speaker 3: direct payment.

594
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 1: Which article said that she did?

595
00:32:49,820 --> 00:32:52,700
Speaker 3: I don't know, but it doesn't seem to be right. Um,

596
00:32:53,330 --> 00:32:56,630
Speaker 3: Or maybe they just sort of said, well, since her

597
00:32:56,950 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 3: captor slash husband was paid, then sort of means she was.

598
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 3: I'm not sure, but that's all nowhere else that said

599
00:33:03,220 --> 00:33:04,660
Speaker 3: that she was actually paid independently.

600
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 1: And I mean, that would make the most sense, you know?

601
00:33:07,220 --> 00:33:11,220
Speaker 1: Although after that expedition, I would also not be surprised

602
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,460
Speaker 1: if she was paid directly, even though it bucked, you know, convention.

603
00:33:15,310 --> 00:33:17,290
Speaker 3: Yeah, he got paid $ 500 and.

604
00:33:17,190 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 2: 320 acres of land, which was.

605
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:26,060
Speaker 3: And it's– like I tried to do an inflation comp,

606
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 3: but it's– they don't even have anything. I think it said–

607
00:33:30,820 --> 00:33:33,060
Speaker 3: like when you go that far back, you can't even

608
00:33:33,420 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 3: compare it to today's currency.

609
00:33:34,820 --> 00:33:35,140
Speaker 2: Oh, really?

610
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 1: Westgate gave me an estimate of about nine grand.

611
00:33:39,980 --> 00:33:42,740
Speaker 3: Oh, see, I saw that too, but I didn't see

612
00:33:42,780 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 3: that as a direct inflation calculator, more like the goods

613
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:50,660
Speaker 3: that you could have bought back then.

614
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:57,170
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm. No, they said $ 9, 000, 000.

615
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:55,300
Speaker 2: No, I saw that. It just didn't seem like a

616
00:33:55,380 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 2: one-to-one to me.

617
00:33:56,260 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 1: Oh, I see. Even still, it seems like really I

618
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,860
Speaker 1: would imagine $ 500 back then would be like $ 10 trillion today,

619
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:07,140
Speaker 1: you know?

620
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, it would seem to be the case. It's a

621
00:34:11,980 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 2: little weird.

622
00:34:12,860 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 1: But, yeah, because I mean like a journey of thousands

623
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:19,100
Speaker 1: of miles at the behest of the president of the

624
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:23,980
Speaker 1: United States– And he paid nine grand. Seems like, it

625
00:34:24,020 --> 00:34:26,259
Speaker 1: just seems like you would get more than that. I

626
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,180
Speaker 1: don't know. But then again, he's a fur trapper who

627
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 1: only speaks Hadassah in French. So who knows?

628
00:34:32,460 --> 00:34:36,670
Speaker 3: I think what confused me is, like, if you enter

629
00:34:36,670 --> 00:34:41,649
Speaker 3: $ 500 100 years later, it's like $ 15, 000. Or maybe that

630
00:34:41,890 --> 00:34:42,330
Speaker 3: does work.

631
00:34:42,350 --> 00:34:44,950
Speaker 2: I don't know. It just didn't seem to work out math-wise.

632
00:34:45,050 --> 00:34:45,650
Speaker 2: But what do I know?

633
00:34:45,930 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I'm with you. You kind of have to

634
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,339
Speaker 1: be able to peer back into the vagaries of the

635
00:34:52,700 --> 00:34:56,180
Speaker 1: American economy over the last couple hundred years to suss

636
00:34:56,219 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 1: that out.

637
00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:59,100
Speaker 3: I looked it up and it said what that would

638
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 3: be today would be 200 mink, 80 beaver tails. Right.

639
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:05,859
Speaker 2: And $ 9, 000. Those poor beaver.

640
00:35:05,890 --> 00:35:09,709
Speaker 1: I know. That's the other thing about Charbonneau that people

641
00:35:09,730 --> 00:35:12,910
Speaker 1: don't say he killed a lot of animals for their pelts.

642
00:35:12,930 --> 00:35:13,270
Speaker 2: That's right.

643
00:35:13,350 --> 00:35:13,509
Speaker 1: So.

644
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:21,660
Speaker 3: All right, so after the expedition, she stayed with Charbonneau.

645
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:26,750
Speaker 3: I think a few years later, they moved to, with

646
00:35:26,770 --> 00:35:28,270
Speaker 3: little Baptiste, moved to St.

647
00:35:28,350 --> 00:35:28,650
Speaker 2: Louis.

648
00:35:28,670 --> 00:35:31,230
Speaker 1: Yeah, at the invitation of Clark, right?

649
00:35:32,070 --> 00:35:35,700
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it says that he offered them an opportunity

650
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 3: of land to farm, which I don't quite get because

651
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:40,940
Speaker 3: he just got 320 acres of land.

652
00:35:41,020 --> 00:35:42,879
Speaker 1: I was wondering if that was one and the same.

653
00:35:43,860 --> 00:35:44,240
Speaker 2: Maybe.

654
00:35:44,260 --> 00:35:46,419
Speaker 3: I couldn't quite parse that out. But at any rate,

655
00:35:47,020 --> 00:35:49,380
Speaker 3: he's like, here, you come here. Here's some land to

656
00:35:49,420 --> 00:35:53,839
Speaker 3: farm if you let me educate your son in the,

657
00:35:53,900 --> 00:35:59,489
Speaker 3: you know, American sort of schooling system. And, you know,

658
00:35:59,570 --> 00:36:01,570
Speaker 3: that was– he was the godfather of the boy at

659
00:36:01,610 --> 00:36:04,730
Speaker 3: that point, really cared a lot about Baptiste and Sacagawea

660
00:36:04,770 --> 00:36:07,609
Speaker 3: and wanted the best for him. And I think that

661
00:36:07,670 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 3: was a pretty decent deal for Charbonneau.

662
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:17,330
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, I mean, I believe– Clark officially adopted Baptiste

663
00:36:17,469 --> 00:36:21,230
Speaker 1: as his guardian, at least, if not as his adopted parent.

664
00:36:22,870 --> 00:36:26,770
Speaker 1: And he was educated at the St. Louis Academy, I believe.

665
00:36:26,830 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 1: And then he... I don't know how he met him,

666
00:36:30,860 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 1: but Baptiste went on to meet a German prince who

667
00:36:34,660 --> 00:36:36,660
Speaker 1: was like, hey, you should totally come back and hang

668
00:36:36,700 --> 00:36:39,089
Speaker 1: with me in Germany and I'll make sure you get

669
00:36:39,110 --> 00:36:41,810
Speaker 1: a European education. And he did. He moved to Europe

670
00:36:41,870 --> 00:36:46,430
Speaker 1: and was educated there, lived a pretty interesting life, said, yeah,

671
00:36:46,450 --> 00:36:48,710
Speaker 1: I'm going to go back to America, became a trapper

672
00:36:48,790 --> 00:36:52,090
Speaker 1: for a while, had a bunch of different interesting jobs.

673
00:36:52,130 --> 00:36:55,850
Speaker 1: I believe he was a hotel clerk in Auburn, California

674
00:36:56,050 --> 00:36:59,420
Speaker 1: for a little while. Um, So, yeah, he did a

675
00:36:59,450 --> 00:37:01,980
Speaker 1: bunch of different stuff and had a pretty amazing life

676
00:37:03,020 --> 00:37:07,839
Speaker 1: in addition to basically being the official mascot of the

677
00:37:08,020 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 1: Corps of Discovery's expedition.

678
00:37:10,820 --> 00:37:13,900
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he ended up taking guardianship because Charbonneau and

679
00:37:13,940 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 3: Sacagawea left in April 1811 to go on another fur

680
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,340
Speaker 3: trading expedition, and they left Baptiste with him.

681
00:37:22,219 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 2: So I think it kind of worked out for everyone. Yeah.

682
00:37:25,140 --> 00:37:27,020
Speaker 1: Yeah, I get the impression it wasn't like we don't

683
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 1: want our kid and Lewis would give me your kid.

684
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,100
Speaker 1: I think it was for the best interest of the

685
00:37:32,140 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 1: kid and they all loved him very much. That's the

686
00:37:34,340 --> 00:37:35,060
Speaker 1: impression I have.

687
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:38,970
Speaker 3: She also had a daughter about a year after that

688
00:37:39,170 --> 00:37:42,710
Speaker 3: in 1812, Lisette or Lisette.

689
00:37:42,850 --> 00:37:44,310
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's an S or a Z.

690
00:37:45,290 --> 00:37:48,350
Speaker 3: And this is where we get to the sort of

691
00:37:48,390 --> 00:37:52,739
Speaker 3: fork in the road as to what actually happened to Sacagaway.

692
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 2: There are a couple of stories.

693
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:58,859
Speaker 3: One is that She died not long after of what

694
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,280
Speaker 3: was called putrid fever, which is probably typhoid fever.

695
00:38:02,300 --> 00:38:02,940
Speaker 1: That's terrible.

696
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:05,799
Speaker 3: There's another story, and she would have been about 25

697
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:11,020
Speaker 3: years old in December of 1812. There's another story that

698
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:14,270
Speaker 3: she went on to live a very long life in

699
00:38:14,330 --> 00:38:16,570
Speaker 3: another part of the country, but I think that one

700
00:38:16,590 --> 00:38:17,850
Speaker 3: has kind of been shot down, right?

701
00:38:18,090 --> 00:38:23,430
Speaker 1: Yeah, so at the turn of the last century— Sacagawea

702
00:38:23,469 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 1: was kind of dug out of obscurity. Well, actually, there

703
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 1: was a guy who was the official, I don't know,

704
00:38:30,940 --> 00:38:35,500
Speaker 1: biographer or chronicler of the Corps of Discovery's expedition where

705
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:39,700
Speaker 1: he was in charge. His name was Biddle, I believe. Yeah.

706
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:44,930
Speaker 1: He was in charge of basically taking the notes of

707
00:38:44,950 --> 00:38:47,190
Speaker 1: the Corps of Discovery and getting them ready for publication.

708
00:38:47,230 --> 00:38:49,430
Speaker 1: He just couldn't publish the whole thing like that. He

709
00:38:49,590 --> 00:38:53,069
Speaker 1: edited them, basically. Yeah. But he also interviewed Clark. And

710
00:38:53,170 --> 00:38:55,490
Speaker 1: out of his interviews with Clark, we found a lot

711
00:38:55,530 --> 00:38:59,320
Speaker 1: more out about Sacagawea than we knew before. And Biddle

712
00:38:59,340 --> 00:39:02,420
Speaker 1: was like, this is a very interesting story right here.

713
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,419
Speaker 1: I'm going to put Sacagawea front and center. So he

714
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,469
Speaker 1: kind of brought Sacagawea into the foreground for the first time.

715
00:39:08,890 --> 00:39:13,070
Speaker 1: But then almost a century later, as the women's suffrage

716
00:39:13,110 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 1: movement was starting to gain momentum, there was a woman named– Emily, no,

717
00:39:20,620 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 1: Eva Emery Dye, who wrote a book about the Lewis

718
00:39:24,140 --> 00:39:28,370
Speaker 1: and Clark expedition and said, here's my heroine. Sacagawea is

719
00:39:28,410 --> 00:39:30,320
Speaker 1: a heroine. I'm going to basically use her. her as

720
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:34,620
Speaker 1: an icon for the suffragette movement. And that's how she

721
00:39:34,660 --> 00:39:38,390
Speaker 1: kind of became this symbol from that point on. I

722
00:39:38,469 --> 00:39:41,129
Speaker 1: don't remember what kicked off the spiel, though. You asked

723
00:39:41,190 --> 00:39:42,890
Speaker 1: a question or you said something. What was it?

724
00:39:42,890 --> 00:39:45,090
Speaker 2: Do you remember? What spiel?

725
00:39:45,700 --> 00:39:49,049
Speaker 1: My spiel about how Sacagawea was kind of brought out

726
00:39:49,070 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 1: of obscurity by these writers.

727
00:39:52,060 --> 00:39:52,700
Speaker 2: Oh, oh, oh.

728
00:39:53,550 --> 00:39:57,930
Speaker 1: Where this idea came from that she had gone on

729
00:39:57,989 --> 00:39:59,050
Speaker 1: to live a long life.

730
00:39:59,969 --> 00:40:00,609
Speaker 2: Oh, right, right.

731
00:40:00,810 --> 00:40:05,110
Speaker 1: That first book that was written by Eva Emery Dye

732
00:40:05,489 --> 00:40:09,129
Speaker 1: was picked up by another historian who said, you know what,

733
00:40:09,310 --> 00:40:11,529
Speaker 1: I've heard these stories about this woman who went on

734
00:40:11,570 --> 00:40:14,859
Speaker 1: to live at the Wind River Reservation, and I think

735
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 1: she's actually Sacagawea. And that kind of kicked off this

736
00:40:18,100 --> 00:40:18,540
Speaker 1: whole hunt.

737
00:40:19,860 --> 00:40:25,109
Speaker 3: Yeah, because like you said, there are numerous people who

738
00:40:25,150 --> 00:40:28,509
Speaker 3: wrote down sort of officially that she did die very

739
00:40:28,550 --> 00:40:34,029
Speaker 3: young at 25 years old, including I think Clark in

740
00:40:34,290 --> 00:40:38,340
Speaker 3: one of his– I think like maybe a financial ledger.

741
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:38,540
Speaker 1: Yeah.

742
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:40,300
Speaker 2: Ledger? Ledger.

743
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:44,920
Speaker 3: It was a cash book about like where people– like

744
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,510
Speaker 3: where are they now basically and have they been paid?

745
00:40:47,530 --> 00:40:47,650
Speaker 1: Right.

746
00:40:48,350 --> 00:40:53,069
Speaker 3: And next to her name, he just wrote dead, which.

747
00:40:53,850 --> 00:40:55,910
Speaker 1: Not even a frowny face next to it.

748
00:40:55,910 --> 00:40:57,670
Speaker 3: I guess if it's a ledger, you're just trying to

749
00:40:57,690 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 3: sort of, you know, be cold about it. But for

750
00:41:00,940 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 3: someone who really cared a lot about her, it seemed

751
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 3: it probably wasn't the right place to wax philosophical.

752
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,940
Speaker 1: Right. But also some people have said, well, no, he

753
00:41:08,980 --> 00:41:12,240
Speaker 1: was covering for her because she, the legend goes that

754
00:41:12,340 --> 00:41:16,070
Speaker 1: she left Charbonneau, ran off. To live a life away

755
00:41:16,150 --> 00:41:16,709
Speaker 1: from her.

756
00:41:16,830 --> 00:41:17,730
Speaker 2: As an independent woman.

757
00:41:17,790 --> 00:41:21,350
Speaker 1: Right, exactly. Which really kind of dovetailed with the suffragette

758
00:41:21,370 --> 00:41:26,220
Speaker 1: movement's push for women's rights. So that was a great

759
00:41:26,300 --> 00:41:29,359
Speaker 1: idea that that's what she did. And the idea was

760
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,020
Speaker 1: that Clark was covering for her in his little cash

761
00:41:32,060 --> 00:41:34,219
Speaker 1: ledger by saying she was dead, knowing full well she

762
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:37,290
Speaker 1: was alive. Other people are like, who's going to ever

763
00:41:37,350 --> 00:41:40,109
Speaker 1: look in Clark's cash ledger? Like Sharpa knows ever going

764
00:41:40,130 --> 00:41:43,140
Speaker 1: to get his hands on it. That's probably not correct.

765
00:41:43,540 --> 00:41:46,060
Speaker 1: And the whole idea that she went on to live

766
00:41:46,140 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 1: on the Wind River Reservation until age 100 when she

767
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:50,550
Speaker 1: died in like the 1880s.

768
00:41:51,140 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 2: Makes for a good story.

769
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 1: It makes for a great story. And there was a

770
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 1: woman who did live like that. Her name was Para Evo,

771
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,219
Speaker 1: also known as Basil's mother, who lived to be 100.

772
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:04,049
Speaker 1: And a lot of people said, no, that's Sacagawea. But

773
00:42:04,550 --> 00:42:09,890
Speaker 1: that was before more historical record came out, including an

774
00:42:09,950 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 1: account from a guy named who worked for the same

775
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:17,819
Speaker 1: fur trading company that Charbonneau did, knew Charbonneau personally, and

776
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:20,469
Speaker 1: wrote in his journal, had no reason to make anything up,

777
00:42:20,890 --> 00:42:25,750
Speaker 1: but in December, I think on December 20th of 1812,

778
00:42:25,830 --> 00:42:31,860
Speaker 1: was it? Wrote that Charbonneau's wife, he's the one who

779
00:42:31,890 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 1: said that she had a putrid fever and died, and

780
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:37,400
Speaker 1: that she was the best woman in the fort. She

781
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 1: was a good woman and the best woman in the fort.

782
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:43,500
Speaker 1: She was aged about 25 years, which totally fits the

783
00:42:43,540 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 1: bill for Sacagawea.

784
00:42:45,739 --> 00:42:47,340
Speaker 2: And she left a fine infant girl.

785
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:51,239
Speaker 1: Yes. So once that guy's journal was found, that was

786
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:53,810
Speaker 1: basically the nail in the coffin of the idea that

787
00:42:53,830 --> 00:42:59,270
Speaker 1: Sacagawea had lived to age 100 after escaping her captor husband.

788
00:43:00,110 --> 00:43:02,870
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think what's kind of cool is, you know,

789
00:43:02,950 --> 00:43:06,810
Speaker 3: even though there's very little officially recorded about her life everywhere,

790
00:43:07,450 --> 00:43:08,330
Speaker 3: She is recorded.

791
00:43:08,910 --> 00:43:10,630
Speaker 2: It's all glowing praise.

792
00:43:11,170 --> 00:43:13,689
Speaker 3: There's not like one entry where anyone was ever like,

793
00:43:14,290 --> 00:43:18,250
Speaker 3: oh boy, Sakagaway and that baby are really, like what

794
00:43:18,270 --> 00:43:21,170
Speaker 3: a mistake that was. By all accounts, she was a

795
00:43:21,190 --> 00:43:24,010
Speaker 3: boon to the Corps of Discovery and a big, big

796
00:43:24,050 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 3: part of its success.

797
00:43:25,380 --> 00:43:28,340
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so as a result, Chuck, Lifetime, as in

798
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:31,880
Speaker 1: Lifetime Movie Network Lifetime, I couldn't find the year, but

799
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:35,540
Speaker 1: they recently conducted a survey of memorials to create the

800
00:43:35,620 --> 00:43:44,290
Speaker 1: Lifetime Herstory And of, I think, 5,500 plus statues, monuments,

801
00:43:44,350 --> 00:43:49,629
Speaker 1: and memorials that exist in the United States, only about 200,

802
00:43:49,630 --> 00:43:54,990
Speaker 1: which is around 4%, honor women. But of those 200,

803
00:43:54,989 --> 00:43:58,790
Speaker 1: 16 honor Sacagawea, which means that she is the most

804
00:43:58,930 --> 00:44:04,089
Speaker 1: honored woman via monuments and statues in the entire United States.

805
00:44:04,110 --> 00:44:05,230
Speaker 2: Wow. Amazing.

806
00:44:05,489 --> 00:44:07,710
Speaker 1: The first one from what I read was by a

807
00:44:07,750 --> 00:44:11,609
Speaker 1: group of suffragettes in Portland, Oregon in 1905. And that

808
00:44:11,650 --> 00:44:14,260
Speaker 1: statue is obviously still there today. And it is beautiful.

809
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:20,060
Speaker 1: And guess who's strapped to her back in the statue? Lissette?

810
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:22,859
Speaker 1: Close enough.

811
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:23,460
Speaker 2: Little Baptiste.

812
00:44:23,500 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 1: Little Baptiste, that's right. You got anything else?

813
00:44:26,860 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 3: No, other than, and we should mention, I don't think

814
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:31,590
Speaker 3: we know a lot about what happened to Lissette. Unfortunately,

815
00:44:31,630 --> 00:44:32,790
Speaker 3: she was sort of lost to history.

816
00:44:32,930 --> 00:44:36,170
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. I guess that's it.

817
00:44:37,010 --> 00:44:37,260
Speaker 2: That's it.

818
00:44:37,450 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 1: All right, so since we said that's it, that means

819
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:41,300
Speaker 1: it's time, everybody, for Listener Mail.

820
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're going to do a couple of corrections, a

821
00:44:46,580 --> 00:44:48,500
Speaker 3: bit of a mea culpa for me and a correction.

822
00:44:48,620 --> 00:44:49,500
Speaker 1: Oh, I like those.

823
00:44:49,739 --> 00:44:52,300
Speaker 3: I said the word redneck a lot, entitled the episode

824
00:44:52,420 --> 00:44:57,830
Speaker 3: about the Klan, used the word redneck. And, you know,

825
00:44:57,870 --> 00:45:02,010
Speaker 3: I probably shouldn't have. That's a derogatory term. The name

826
00:45:02,070 --> 00:45:05,819
Speaker 3: actually has a different history. I think West Virginia coal

827
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 3: miners has something to do with that. And I just

828
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:12,940
Speaker 3: wasn't really being as sensitive enough. I'm not apologizing for

829
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 3: degrading the Klan.

830
00:45:15,260 --> 00:45:15,420
Speaker 1: Right.

831
00:45:16,219 --> 00:45:18,299
Speaker 2: But I probably shouldn't have used the word redneck with

832
00:45:18,340 --> 00:45:19,020
Speaker 2: such a broad brush.

833
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:21,650
Speaker 1: But think about it, though, Chuck. That means the Klan

834
00:45:21,690 --> 00:45:26,069
Speaker 1: is so rotten, they give rednecks a bad name. That's

835
00:45:26,130 --> 00:45:27,529
Speaker 1: essentially what we're saying here.

836
00:45:29,010 --> 00:45:29,350
Speaker 2: I love it.

837
00:45:30,270 --> 00:45:33,630
Speaker 3: And then from that same episode, We need to address

838
00:45:33,690 --> 00:45:35,490
Speaker 3: the Robert Byrd incident.

839
00:45:35,130 --> 00:45:36,430
Speaker 2: Because we heard from a lot of people.

840
00:45:36,450 --> 00:45:37,590
Speaker 1: That was all me.

841
00:45:38,780 --> 00:45:40,940
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think we were talking about Senator Robert

842
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:44,020
Speaker 3: Byrd sort of being unapologetic about being in the Klan.

843
00:45:44,060 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 3: That was very much not the case. This is one

844
00:45:46,500 --> 00:45:48,780
Speaker 3: of the many emails, and this is from Aaron Patrick Lyons.

845
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:51,840
Speaker 2: He, him, his. Hey, listen to the great episode on

846
00:45:51,860 --> 00:45:54,890
Speaker 2: the KKK. As usual, did a bang-up job.

847
00:45:55,150 --> 00:45:58,430
Speaker 3: However, I have to take issue with Josh's statement indicating

848
00:45:58,469 --> 00:46:01,509
Speaker 3: that Senator Robert Byrd was an unrepentant Klansman.

849
00:46:01,710 --> 00:46:02,330
Speaker 2: He was indeed.

850
00:46:02,940 --> 00:46:05,620
Speaker 3: and exalted Cyclops or local leader of the clan in

851
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:08,780
Speaker 3: the fifties, uh, into the fifties. But through the seventies

852
00:46:08,820 --> 00:46:11,380
Speaker 3: and eighties, he had a sincere change of heart regarding

853
00:46:11,420 --> 00:46:14,460
Speaker 3: race relations and voted for the Martin Luther King jr.

854
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:18,580
Speaker 3: National holiday among other legislation in his very long career. Uh,

855
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 3: he was deeply embarrassed, uh, embarrassed and apologetic about.

856
00:46:21,820 --> 00:46:22,700
Speaker 2: His time in the clan.

857
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:26,620
Speaker 3: Uh, and that is like I said, from Eric Patrick, Aaron,

858
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,700
Speaker 3: Patrick Lyons in Cedar Falls, Iowa. We heard from a

859
00:46:29,700 --> 00:46:32,969
Speaker 3: lot of people that, um, Not only did he vote

860
00:46:32,989 --> 00:46:35,810
Speaker 3: for the MLK holiday, but apparently did a lot of

861
00:46:36,290 --> 00:46:38,010
Speaker 3: work for legislation.

862
00:46:38,930 --> 00:46:41,129
Speaker 2: For equal rights for African-Americans.

863
00:46:41,190 --> 00:46:44,270
Speaker 1: I totally flubbed that one. So my apologies to Robert

864
00:46:44,350 --> 00:46:47,980
Speaker 1: Byrd's family for tarnishing his legacy in that small way.

865
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 1: And I'm glad we got corrected almost immediately right after

866
00:46:51,180 --> 00:46:53,500
Speaker 1: the episode came out. It was, can't believe you guys

867
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:56,399
Speaker 1: use rednecks so much. You were totally wrong about Robert Byrd.

868
00:46:56,860 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 1: So this listener mail is perfect. And then there's one

869
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:01,560
Speaker 1: other thing I want to say, too, about the redneck thing, Chuck.

870
00:47:02,780 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 1: Somebody pointed out, I think it was on Twitter, that

871
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:09,100
Speaker 1: using the word redneck was not only derogatory towards rednecks,

872
00:47:09,620 --> 00:47:13,140
Speaker 1: it obfuscated, it covered up all of the people who

873
00:47:13,739 --> 00:47:17,240
Speaker 1: aren't rednecks, who are just kind of everyday normal people

874
00:47:17,620 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 1: who are either in the clan or subscribe to the

875
00:47:20,060 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 1: clan's ideologies. That it makes it seem like just this

876
00:47:23,180 --> 00:47:27,069
Speaker 1: marginal group or a marginal thought or fringe thought when

877
00:47:27,110 --> 00:47:29,990
Speaker 1: it's really kind of subscribed to by an alarming number

878
00:47:30,010 --> 00:47:32,910
Speaker 1: of people. that, you know, you live and work beside

879
00:47:32,969 --> 00:47:35,690
Speaker 1: and might never really guess at just how deep their

880
00:47:35,730 --> 00:47:38,930
Speaker 1: racism goes. So I think that's another reason to have

881
00:47:38,950 --> 00:47:39,700
Speaker 1: eschewed it as well.

882
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:42,980
Speaker 3: Yeah, and, you know, I'm not going to stick up

883
00:47:43,020 --> 00:47:44,739
Speaker 3: for myself, but I think when you grow up in

884
00:47:44,780 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 3: the South, you might feel like you have a little

885
00:47:47,260 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 3: bit of ownership on using a word like that.

886
00:47:48,940 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 1: For sure.

887
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:52,840
Speaker 2: So, yeah, my apologies to all the great rednecks of

888
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:53,180
Speaker 2: the world.

889
00:47:53,300 --> 00:47:57,779
Speaker 1: That's right. Sorry, Jeff Foxworthy. That's right. Sorry, Larry the

890
00:47:57,820 --> 00:48:00,430
Speaker 1: Cable Guy. Who's actually not really a redneck if you

891
00:48:00,489 --> 00:48:02,109
Speaker 1: listen to David Cross's beef with him.

892
00:48:03,590 --> 00:48:05,390
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's fully an act, right?

893
00:48:05,670 --> 00:48:06,650
Speaker 1: Yeah, from what I understand.

894
00:48:07,070 --> 00:48:10,760
Speaker 3: He created that persona to get more fans of comedy.

895
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 1: That's right.

896
00:48:12,700 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 2: Smart man. That's right.

897
00:48:14,219 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 1: And, well, I guess since we started talking about Larry

898
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:18,680
Speaker 1: the Cable Guy, that's the end of this episode, and

899
00:48:18,739 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 1: listener mail is petered out. And if you want to

900
00:48:21,580 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 1: get in touch with us to correct us or call

901
00:48:23,660 --> 00:48:26,660
Speaker 1: us out for something or whatever, lay it on us.

902
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:34,299
Speaker 1: Send us an email to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com. Stuff You

903
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:36,310
Speaker 1: Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

904
00:48:36,790 --> 00:48:41,009
Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts,

905
00:48:41,170 --> 00:48:42,950
Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.