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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or shoot us an email at trust Me pod at

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Speaker 1: gmail dot com.

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Speaker 2: Trust me.

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Speaker 3: Trust Me.

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Speaker 1: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 2: I've never lied to you.

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Speaker 1: If you think.

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Speaker 2: That one person has all the answers, don't.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief

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Speaker 1: and manipulation from a girl who actually experienced it. I'm

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Speaker 1: Megan Elizabeth and this week Lola's out of town, so

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Speaker 1: I'm joined with producer Steve for the intro.

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Speaker 4: Hi, Megan, Hi, Steve.

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Speaker 1: Lola joins us for the interview. But you and I

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Speaker 1: are going to do the intro talk about some cultsiest things.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, you have one, I do.

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Speaker 1: Okay, great, Well, let's talk about the interview this week.

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Speaker 1: This week is heart two of a fascinating discussion with

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Speaker 1: Joel Tamra's, author of the book The Secret Practice, Eighteen

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Speaker 1: Years on the Dark Side of Yoga. This week, the

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Speaker 1: story gets even more wild as Joel talks to us

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Speaker 1: about how her spiritual mentor a room became her husband,

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Speaker 1: the strange visions he introduced her to, and how he

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Speaker 1: drug her deeper into a world she would have never

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Speaker 1: normally entered.

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Speaker 4: Also, Lolo and Megan discussed the financial abuse, the cheating,

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Speaker 4: and the isolation from her family that further broke her.

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Speaker 1: I think I really emphasize it in this episode like

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Speaker 1: a broken record, but I love that she went to Harvard, yep,

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Speaker 1: because it's just one of the building blocks of the

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Speaker 1: show is that anyone can get kind of sucked into

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Speaker 1: these worlds if they're primed in the right way, and

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Speaker 1: she certainly was. This story is.

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Speaker 4: Wow, yep, it is. And I can just take a

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Speaker 4: second to compliment you and Lola for the work that

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Speaker 4: you two have done for the last three years.

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Speaker 1: Oh, Steve, thank you. I didn't know you were going

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Speaker 1: to do that. That's sweet.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm from off the top of the tone right here.

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Speaker 1: You seb what is your cultiest thing in the week? See,

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Speaker 1: because rumor has.

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Speaker 4: That you have fun Wow, I get to share one

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Speaker 4: of them. Yeah yeah, okay, well it's yoga related, so topical.

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Speaker 4: I got this from a friend of mine who might

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Speaker 4: or might not be listening to this episode.

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Speaker 1: I hope you are.

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Speaker 4: I hope they are. A friend of mine is taking

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Speaker 4: a yoga class. Now, I don't know. Do you take yoga?

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Speaker 1: Maybe not as normally as one shut?

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Speaker 4: Okay? Is it normal to take a single class throughout

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Speaker 4: the course of the week or several classes?

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Speaker 1: It all depends.

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Speaker 4: Okay. So this this friend of mine is very thoughtful, kind, cheery, intentional,

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Speaker 4: all of the positive adjectives that you can think is

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Speaker 4: associated with your friends. They take a single yoga class

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Speaker 4: throughout the course of the week, okay, and I Over

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Speaker 4: the course of the conversation with them, I was just

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Speaker 4: catching up with them. They mentioned the length of the class. Megan,

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Speaker 4: how long is a typical yoga class that you've been to?

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Speaker 1: An hour and thirty minutes is the longest?

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Speaker 4: Okay? All right, that's even for me in my remedial

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Speaker 4: understanding of yoga, I would say maybe just a touch

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Speaker 4: long for my own comfort. My friend is currently taking

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Speaker 4: a three hour yoga.

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Speaker 1: Clt Wow, yes, what kind?

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Speaker 4: I don't know all the nuances as you get into

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Speaker 4: in this episode with Joelle. I just know that it's

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Speaker 4: dark in the room and there are people who tend

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Speaker 4: to fall asleep during the actual class.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, this yoga's for me. Okay, this is not

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Speaker 1: movement yoga. I wonder if this is yen yoga where

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Speaker 1: you relax as part of the yoga. Yeah, I would

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Speaker 1: join that. I'm not calling it a cult, but let's

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Speaker 1: say somebody had caltic intentions. Sure if I would join it.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely a nap cult. Yeah, nap cult. Who doesn't love

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Speaker 4: a nap cult? And again, I don't want to be

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Speaker 4: very narrow minded in my understanding.

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Speaker 1: Some yogas could just last that long.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's that's fine. I'm just bringing it up.

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Speaker 1: Is a topic of curiosity, and that's another thing we

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Speaker 1: get into in the episode, like what are the red

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Speaker 1: flags and what are just normalize things to do for yourself.

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Speaker 1: It's a fine line. Love an app, love an.

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Speaker 4: App, love a nap, love a nap, but I also

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Speaker 4: love the apps on my phone.

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Speaker 1: I was like, how does it relate?

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Speaker 4: Okay, let's pivot over to you, Megan, what is your

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Speaker 4: cultiest thing of the week.

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Speaker 1: Sure, I'll tell you, well, my cultist thing. Yes, did

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Speaker 1: you see that? Sean Diddy Combs has been officially arrested.

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Speaker 4: I did see that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he tried to put fifty million dollars on bail.

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Speaker 1: They said, nope, no, what a gel.

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Speaker 4: Nope.

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Speaker 1: I've been reading a lot about it, very curious as

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Speaker 1: to who is going to be indicted with him, who's

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Speaker 1: going to get in trouble, and just that fine line

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Speaker 1: that we see in these kind of groups, a lot

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Speaker 1: of like who's a victim and who is somebody who

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Speaker 1: was helping him, because it's such a when you have

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Speaker 1: that much power, it's such a complicated thing to figure out,

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Speaker 1: you know, even with Epstein, like one of his higher

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Speaker 1: up girls her family, I remember saying, and we talked

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Speaker 1: about this once on the podcast. They were Jehovah's witnesses,

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Speaker 1: and they were like, she was a stranger from her

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Speaker 1: family because they cut her off. She didn't know blah

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Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah, and she got sucked into his web.

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Speaker 1: And yes, she like technically helped him, but she was

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Speaker 1: a victim of his And it's just complicated to figure

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Speaker 1: out who is responsible, who has intention, who has agency,

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Speaker 1: who's helping him, and who are just people who are

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Speaker 1: getting sucked into this world and are terrified of him. Gotcha.

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Speaker 4: So you think in the coming months and maybe years,

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Speaker 4: will be parceling out who was kind of coaxed into

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Speaker 4: the operations the things.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I'm assuming that what we'll find is that most

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Speaker 1: people with money and power were problematic and the scheme,

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Speaker 1: and people without it we're not. So let's see. Apparently,

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Speaker 1: from what I'm reading, he had a lot of guns,

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Speaker 1: he had a lot of bodyguards, he had a lot

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Speaker 1: of scary shit. So let's see what happens, because the

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Speaker 1: cult of Ditty is certainly falling, and we shall see

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Speaker 1: what that brings. But for now, shall we talk to

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Speaker 1: jo out Let's do it all right, So before we

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Speaker 1: get into the next part of your story, can you

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Speaker 1: just tell a little bit about what was disillusioning to

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Speaker 1: you about your life beforehand, because, as we said, you

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Speaker 1: had everything, Park Avenue, apartment, nanny's chauffeur driving you to school.

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Speaker 1: What was unfulfilling?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that that happened for quite a few years,

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Speaker 3: but there was in when I would turn when I

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Speaker 3: turned sixteen, that kind of all broke apart, and my

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Speaker 3: mom and well my dad was you know, arrested and

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Speaker 3: kidnapped in Lebanon, and it was a huge upheap in

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Speaker 3: my family. My mom was very stressed at the time

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Speaker 3: and she had to reorganize her finances and all along.

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Speaker 3: I had not really liked that high flying lifestyle because

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Speaker 3: it had been I'd been very lonely in that lifestyle.

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Speaker 3: I didn't I was raised by a governess in France

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Speaker 3: who was, you know, very overbearing, very strict, uh slapping kids,

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Speaker 3: you know when they misbehaved, and I think came from

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Speaker 3: a place of educating, you know, the young brat now

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Speaker 3: educating the young child, but you know, was very harsh

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Speaker 3: and overbearing. But she was also who I clung to

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Speaker 3: in childhood because she was every day with me. I

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Speaker 3: was an only child and I had a government. But

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Speaker 3: when I came to New York, then I had a

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Speaker 3: baby sister and the nanny was you know, for the

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Speaker 3: baby sister, and so all all that kind of wealth,

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Speaker 3: it didn't really fulfill me. And it's probably part of

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Speaker 3: the reason why early on I wanted to forge a

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Speaker 3: different path for myself. Not only was I attracted to spirituality,

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Speaker 3: but I was attracted to social activism from a young age,

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Speaker 3: and that's you know, I studied social studies at Harvard.

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Speaker 3: So I didn't like study religion nor philosophy initially, but

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Speaker 3: I wanted to do something in the world, be that

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Speaker 3: through psychology or anthropology or activism. That was what I

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Speaker 3: originally wanted to do.

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Speaker 2: It sounds like you were hungry for meaning and depth

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Speaker 2: and socializing and beings.

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Speaker 3: I mean, and I made it. I mean, I really

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Speaker 3: enjoyed my school years. So you know, school was a

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Speaker 3: place where I felt happy and comfortable and I could excel,

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Speaker 3: so it kind of and provide a friends and so

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Speaker 3: there was an adults who were, you know, particularly interested

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Speaker 3: in me. So that was very nice, uh, you know,

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Speaker 3: in the school years. But yeah, so when I went

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Speaker 3: back to New York, it was like how to make

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Speaker 3: that transition? But then I think a room stepped into

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Speaker 3: that void of the young person. Most young people, I mean,

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Speaker 3: some of them know what they want to do, but

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Speaker 3: I think that's relatively rare. When people are out of

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Speaker 3: college or around that age, whether or not they even

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Speaker 3: go to college, they're wondering what path will I take,

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Speaker 3: or you know, you go into a particular field of

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Speaker 3: studies and don't love it, and then you know you

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Speaker 3: want to do something else. But there's a lot of

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Speaker 3: questions and I think are and stepped into that space totally.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it could have just been a normal young person

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Speaker 2: being like, what am I going to do with my life?

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Speaker 2: Should I be on this spiritual path? Should I be

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Speaker 2: in this spiritual path? And then of course instead somebody

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Speaker 2: kind of intercepted that and directed the path for you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I hadn't appreciated at the time as well.

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Speaker 3: We can mention just how much he played on the

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Speaker 3: fact that he could step in in you there wasn't

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Speaker 3: a father really in the picture, or that the father

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Speaker 3: was behaving very different from how a father should behave

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Speaker 3: because I did tell my dad about Aroun on a

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Speaker 3: couple of different times, and his approach was just to

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Speaker 3: treat it like a friend had spoken to him, because

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Speaker 3: that's really how we related. He didn't take an authoritative

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Speaker 3: role in my life, just even to guide me.

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Speaker 1: So, yeah, he was a businessman and like in and

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Speaker 1: out of your life, mostly out, and so yeah, I

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Speaker 1: could see how he would take advantage. Right.

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Speaker 2: You said he was arrested and kidnapped, but he came back.

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Speaker 3: He came back, but it was a very traumatic time

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Speaker 3: because his whole life changed and he then had to

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Speaker 3: find different businesses and then things were quite tumultuous in

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Speaker 3: his life since then. And my mom just you know,

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Speaker 3: that's when she actually divorced. So they were separated seven

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Speaker 3: years older, seven years earlier, but they divorced in eighty nine,

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Speaker 3: and then she just really drew a very firm line

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Speaker 3: between him and us. So I think that, you know,

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Speaker 3: was part of the chaos as well that we lived through.

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Speaker 2: Right, So you said you got back to New York

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Speaker 2: and you missed him. You life in New York City

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Speaker 2: is very very different from the life that you've been living.

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Speaker 2: So what happened next?

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Speaker 3: So, yeah, it only takes a few days for me

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Speaker 3: to realize I want to go back to be with him.

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Speaker 3: I think we've probably had maybe a phone conversation. I'm

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Speaker 3: guessing I've been starting to teach the physical exercises that

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Speaker 3: he taught me to my mom. You know, I'm I'm

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Speaker 3: fully in his world, so to speak. And so I

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Speaker 3: tell my mom that I want to go back, and

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Speaker 3: she's surprised, but she says, you know, she takes me

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Speaker 3: at face value and says, if you're going to go back,

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Speaker 3: then we're going to go visit you in India when

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Speaker 3: your sister's on vacation in February. And so I make

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Speaker 3: this plan. And once I've made the plan, I feel

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Speaker 3: better because I know that I'll have, you know, more,

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Speaker 3: a whole other half what I think will be a

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Speaker 3: half year with him. It turns out to be shorter.

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Speaker 3: But and then I even have this dream at one

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Speaker 3: point where you know, in my dream, I see him

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Speaker 3: sitting in lotus position, like peacefully above my bed, like

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Speaker 3: looking in a benign way, and I thinking, and I

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Speaker 3: just feel better like when I wake up. So even

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Speaker 3: having these you know, these these dreams about him, and

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Speaker 3: then yeah, I do, I do go back by the

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Speaker 3: end of January.

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Speaker 1: I took that to mean that maybe you felt like

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Speaker 1: his spirit was with you and this deep loneliness you'd

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Speaker 1: always carried was maybe a little I don't know lessons.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, that's addicting.

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Speaker 2: So what is life it's with him look like now

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Speaker 2: that it's actual life and not this sort of temporary

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Speaker 2: thing that had been happening.

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Speaker 3: He maintains that spiritual or very well while we're in Rishikesh,

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Speaker 3: which is where I'm going to end up going back

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Speaker 3: to see him, not just that one time but over

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Speaker 3: the next couple of years. But if we just stay

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Speaker 3: with the first time that I go back. Oh, there

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Speaker 3: was this other interlude where he actually says, no, we're

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Speaker 3: going to be in Delhi, so that takes me by surprise.

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Speaker 3: So he's rented this apartment in Delhi for us. It's

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Speaker 3: a very nice place, but it's totally different from Richikesh.

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Speaker 3: Without explanation, you know that the prophet is allowed to

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Speaker 3: do that, or the girls allowed to do that. And

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Speaker 3: that's where I meet one of his daughters as well.

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Speaker 3: So we actually visit one of his daughters, and I

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Speaker 3: guess he's maybe trying to see whether he can pull

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Speaker 3: off living in Delhi closer to his family and straight.

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Speaker 3: I think living with him initially, that's the first time

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Speaker 3: I see a dark side of his personality, where at

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Speaker 3: the end of one of the meditations, I suddenly get

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Speaker 3: this thought that I want to ask him, and I'm like,

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Speaker 3: you know, what, what about James, Why didn't you teach

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Speaker 3: him rather than me? And you know, as soon as

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Speaker 3: I say it, he gets very angry and says, you know,

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Speaker 3: how could you ask me such a question? I thought

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Speaker 3: you knew And then immediately I realized that the question

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Speaker 3: makes no sense, and you know, I feel terrible. I

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Speaker 3: think I've blown the whole thing. And he lets me

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Speaker 3: wallow in that fear and panic that I've lost him

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Speaker 3: and lost everything that he's taught me. He steps out

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Speaker 3: of the room and then comes back, literally like ten

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Speaker 3: minutes later and says, I'm really sorry. I overreacted. The

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Speaker 3: elders told me not to speak with you.

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Speaker 1: That way, and that's the beginning of a trauma bond

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Speaker 1: m h.

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Speaker 3: And I'm like, oh, okay, I haven't blown it. I

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Speaker 3: get this like this reprieve and he takes me that

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Speaker 3: come with me. He takes my hand, takes me to

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Speaker 3: the living room. I've been meditating in the bedroom, and

285
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Speaker 3: he know, puts blood on my you know where the

286
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Speaker 3: third eye is supposed to be between your eyebrows, and

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Speaker 3: he's like, you're bonded to us. You will never the

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Speaker 3: bond will never break between us, connects us.

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Speaker 2: What blood, Yeah, who's blood?

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Speaker 3: He pretends that he's drawn the blood from thin air,

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Speaker 3: whereas he must have pricked himself. I'm not even that

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Speaker 3: it's weird, because at the time, I'm not even I'm

293
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Speaker 3: so happy that he's not angry at me. But I'm

294
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Speaker 3: not really that worried about blood coming out of thin air.

295
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Speaker 3: I think on some level I know it's not possible, right,

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Speaker 3: I'm not now thinking there's blood around us all the time.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's not that literal, you know these things

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Speaker 3: You're kind of like it is symbolic in a way.

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Speaker 1: Totally.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Megan, you were about to ask about who us meant?

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Speaker 2: I assume that meant the elders.

302
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Speaker 3: Yeah, the elders, because being part of the Elders and

303
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Speaker 3: Baba Jee's families was the highly desirable place to be

304
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Speaker 3: in a place that I I was afraid to be

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Speaker 3: kicked out of through bad behavior. Yes, if I didn't,

306
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Speaker 3: if I wasn't worthy, if I wasn't loyal enough to

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Speaker 3: him and whatever he might be doing on this earthly

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Speaker 3: plane that he need not be judged for, then I

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Speaker 3: would be kicked out of the group.

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Speaker 2: This is just so classic because he has now established

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Speaker 2: himself as having special access to something that nobody else

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Speaker 2: can access, and he is the gatekeeper of that access.

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Speaker 2: So now you are in a position where you have

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Speaker 2: to please quotation marks the elders, which only he is

315
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Speaker 2: able to translate their opinions It just puts you in

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Speaker 2: a position where the power that he now is wielding

317
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Speaker 2: over you is immense, I mean, otherworldly, Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 2: And you know what's interesting.

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Speaker 3: He gives me the positive reinforcement that I'm liked by

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Speaker 3: the elders, that I'm special, that I'm better than him.

321
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Speaker 3: So he's not putting he's very sneakily not putting himself

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Speaker 3: above me, but just saying, if you do these meditations

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Speaker 3: long enough, you'll lack with them yourself. It's just a

324
00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,360
Speaker 3: matter of time. You'll remember your past life, just like

325
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Speaker 3: I did. It's just a matter of time you'll remember

326
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Speaker 3: that we were married when you do enough of these meditations.

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Speaker 3: So it's very sneaky because it's kind of putting himself.

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Speaker 3: He's not saying he's better than me. He's just saying,

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Speaker 3: you'll get there. Keep meditating.

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Speaker 2: Well, he's not saying he's better than you. But it's

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Speaker 2: implot I mean, because you can't talk to them yet,

332
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Speaker 2: so you have to rely on him and whatever he's

333
00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:38,920
Speaker 2: feeling or saying or translating in that moment, you like,

334
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:40,240
Speaker 2: he's the one who gets to tell you. And then,

335
00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:43,920
Speaker 2: of course that goalpost is an eternally moving goalpost, which

336
00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:47,000
Speaker 2: is just another hallmark that we see like, oh, you'll

337
00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:48,840
Speaker 2: get there. You just have to keep working. No, I

338
00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,800
Speaker 2: promise you you're going to be the moment the power. Eventually.

339
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Speaker 2: You got to do it perfectly though forever exactly.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us about the first time you saw

341
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Speaker 1: him in the channel?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So the first time I saw him channel was

343
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Speaker 3: just before we were going to move together to France

344
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Speaker 3: and we were in this house that he rented in

345
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Speaker 3: Rishikesh and this crate of wine gets delivered and Richie

346
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Speaker 3: kesh I said, say, for our listeners, do not You're

347
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Speaker 3: not allowed to bring alcohol or eat meats one of

348
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Speaker 3: these pure towns. So it's hard. So this crate of

349
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Speaker 3: wine is delivered and I see it, and then I

350
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Speaker 3: asked him, I say, what what is it? Uh? And

351
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Speaker 3: he then you know, drops his head and just changes

352
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Speaker 3: his voice. And when he lifts his head again and

353
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Speaker 3: changes his expression, he says that he's someone.

354
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Speaker 1: Else, someone who likes alcohol. Right, so it's not him drinking,

355
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Speaker 1: it's one of the elders who has taken over his

356
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Speaker 1: body to indulge in this practice that he normally wouldn't.

357
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Speaker 3: And at some point he does say that Arun now

358
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Speaker 3: so not him, but the original Arun wanted to be

359
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Speaker 3: an actor.

360
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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, wow, So he gets to play all these

361
00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,520
Speaker 2: different characters with you. That's so good for him.

362
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Speaker 1: Wow.

363
00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:11,119
Speaker 3: A lot of acting goes into these roles. He really

364
00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:13,040
Speaker 3: work the towel part.

365
00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,080
Speaker 1: You know, this is one of the other the other

366
00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:16,920
Speaker 1: Elder's towel.

367
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Speaker 3: Yeah, the one who the first one who came and

368
00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:22,240
Speaker 3: drank and you know, as you know, not not then

369
00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,639
Speaker 3: that first time. But eventually he reveals the Taw was

370
00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:29,439
Speaker 3: my brother in a past life, so cementing another emotional bond.

371
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:34,560
Speaker 3: But also when he's Tao, he's more reasonable interesting, So

372
00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:39,480
Speaker 3: that persona is different. That persona critiques the root persona

373
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Speaker 3: for being you know, like headstrong and not thinking things

374
00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:47,080
Speaker 3: through carefully, and how has to come in and just

375
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Speaker 3: kind of re establish reason and the piece.

376
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Speaker 2: How many were there that would inhabit his body.

377
00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:56,200
Speaker 3: So there was Taw, there was this very different one

378
00:18:56,240 --> 00:19:01,239
Speaker 3: called Udo who was like this elemental very and that

379
00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,760
Speaker 3: had never had a body child. So wasn't someone who

380
00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:08,720
Speaker 3: died and then just became a spiritual being. It was

381
00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:12,080
Speaker 3: just someone who was always had been created as a spirit.

382
00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:15,720
Speaker 3: On the other side, and in a quite eerie way.

383
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,320
Speaker 3: Udo's function was supposedly only to give and to take life.

384
00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:24,400
Speaker 3: Oh this plant. Oh so he could be deployed obviously

385
00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:25,760
Speaker 3: to kill someone.

386
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Speaker 2: Okay, that's scary.

387
00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:29,920
Speaker 3: But Udo was like he when he played Udo is

388
00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,440
Speaker 3: like this very childlike not childlike that sounds too sweet,

389
00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,640
Speaker 3: but almost just just very basic, just said a few words, right,

390
00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,040
Speaker 3: But Udo was around to protect a room.

391
00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,840
Speaker 1: I mean this was in the movie Split. Remember Lula the.

392
00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:46,960
Speaker 2: Child Yeah, not Tamela.

393
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Speaker 3: Wow.

394
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Speaker 2: It's just so fascinating, And I want to just come

395
00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:52,920
Speaker 2: back to the fact that at this point and kind

396
00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:56,320
Speaker 2: of threw out, like he is getting something from you, right,

397
00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:00,320
Speaker 2: what is happening financially between Like, what is he getting

398
00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:03,960
Speaker 2: out of this Besides obviously the power and the presumably

399
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:04,399
Speaker 2: the sex.

400
00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:08,480
Speaker 3: He is from the very beginning, he's extracting everything that

401
00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:12,399
Speaker 3: I have financially, he asks, and I give, you know,

402
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,080
Speaker 3: first the money that I brought to India, then some

403
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,520
Speaker 3: of my savings to learn the complete course, and then

404
00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:22,600
Speaker 3: he asks for twenty five thousand dollars to invest into

405
00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:26,439
Speaker 3: business in India. And that's I do have that in

406
00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:30,240
Speaker 3: savings at the time. That's when I'm about twenty three

407
00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:33,600
Speaker 3: or so, and I've been given it gradually over the

408
00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:38,080
Speaker 3: years by by my parents. And I say, well, we're married, right,

409
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,000
Speaker 3: so why don't I invest with you in this business.

410
00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,240
Speaker 3: So he said, no, no, no, no, I will definitely

411
00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,439
Speaker 3: pay you back leave it with me. But in my mind,

412
00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:49,360
Speaker 3: if i'm his wife, returning dude, no, I don't think

413
00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:50,560
Speaker 3: of him as an old dude then, but you know,

414
00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:51,640
Speaker 3: right your.

415
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:56,080
Speaker 5: Past like parage, I see, you know, I'm wed to

416
00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,880
Speaker 5: him in my mind, just on the base of him

417
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:03,080
Speaker 5: saying that we are reunited, because that seems so incredible,

418
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:05,680
Speaker 5: So it's meant so yeah.

419
00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:10,040
Speaker 3: So anything I have in savings he takes. He always

420
00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:14,000
Speaker 3: has things to buy. And then when I start working,

421
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:15,920
Speaker 3: so now we are skipping ahead. When we do move

422
00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:20,159
Speaker 3: together and uh move to France together, we move ahead

423
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:23,040
Speaker 3: of my being admitted to the NBA program at INSEAD

424
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:25,600
Speaker 3: and I guess it's just a gamble. And then obviously

425
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,439
Speaker 3: when I get admitted at the eleventh hour again because

426
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:32,040
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm not one of the original uh people

427
00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,959
Speaker 3: who are chosen. But someone I get a call from

428
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,280
Speaker 3: the university literally like two weeks before classes starts, saying

429
00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:42,000
Speaker 3: someone you know can't come, they're sick. Do you want

430
00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,040
Speaker 3: to take their place? And I'm like yeah, And Aaron

431
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,840
Speaker 3: is like I told you the elders delivered this. So

432
00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:51,399
Speaker 3: every time he can, he'll pick up on something and

433
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:55,240
Speaker 3: I'm going, this is incredible. Like so I joined, you know,

434
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:57,960
Speaker 3: I start the NBA. It's not the kind of studies

435
00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:00,960
Speaker 3: that I that I ever thought i'd be doing. It's

436
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,680
Speaker 3: not something that I'm drawn to. And then I've got

437
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:08,040
Speaker 3: this man at home who's behaving very, very erratically and

438
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,640
Speaker 3: in a way that's really destabilizing. We can get into

439
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,520
Speaker 3: that separately, but yeah, he's getting money all along once

440
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:15,960
Speaker 3: just to complete on the money part. As soon as

441
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,400
Speaker 3: I'm working. He's getting money there as soon as he can.

442
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:20,840
Speaker 3: He wants to invest in India, so we take these

443
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,840
Speaker 3: large loans. So definitely financially every step of the way,

444
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:28,520
Speaker 3: it's a financial gain. But you know, as you know

445
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:30,720
Speaker 3: from the story, it's a little bit more complex than that.

446
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:34,439
Speaker 3: I think the sex works as control, it works as

447
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:38,119
Speaker 3: emotional connection, it works you know on different levels. Maybe

448
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:40,720
Speaker 3: is you know, just a way to keep somebody under

449
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:42,120
Speaker 3: your control as well.

450
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's a total vampire. I mean, it's extracting everything

451
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:49,160
Speaker 2: from you. He gets energy from having power over you.

452
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:53,960
Speaker 2: He's taking your money, he's dominating your romantic life. I mean,

453
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:55,439
Speaker 2: he's just has complete control.

454
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:59,119
Speaker 1: And on the sexual side, he's putting you first. He's like,

455
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,160
Speaker 1: I don't even care about my unsatisfaction. Let's take care

456
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 1: of you. So he's just like manipulating you mind, body

457
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:06,920
Speaker 1: and soult.

458
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,879
Speaker 3: Absolutely yeah, and I'm going this is great, but until

459
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:16,440
Speaker 3: it's not. So we lived together in France and the drinking,

460
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 3: you know, just really takes off, and me thinking I'm

461
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:22,760
Speaker 3: with this. You know, he who doesn't drink, and he's

462
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,880
Speaker 3: drinking a lot every single day. You know, the fights

463
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 3: pick up, the trauma bonds as you called it, you know,

464
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:33,200
Speaker 3: they just really kick in and he just becomes essentially insufferable.

465
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,080
Speaker 3: But I'm not understanding. I'm thinking, something gone wrong in

466
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,920
Speaker 3: the plant, and how can we set it right? Oh

467
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,640
Speaker 3: he's far from Rishike. She probably is not happy here

468
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:51,240
Speaker 3: in Europe.

469
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,240
Speaker 2: Did he have a drinking problem from the beginning, you think,

470
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 2: or did that sort of come on over time? Like

471
00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:59,480
Speaker 2: was he hiding he certainly.

472
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:01,720
Speaker 3: Hit it well if he did, I don't think he did.

473
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 3: I think he was probably using you know, either marijuana

474
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,080
Speaker 3: or hashish the whole time, and he liked to use

475
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,159
Speaker 3: either marijuan or hashish or alcohol or booth, so like,

476
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,119
Speaker 3: he definitely liked to be of some kind of assistance.

477
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 3: But then he had returned to India after serving jail

478
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:27,119
Speaker 3: time in California for three years, so I'm assuming he'd

479
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:27,680
Speaker 3: dried out.

480
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 1: Right, So you hear about this, he can't travel to

481
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 1: the US, and he finally tells you why. It's because

482
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:39,160
Speaker 1: he was falsely accused of taking advantage of two young girls.

483
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,639
Speaker 1: And you kind of tried to help him with that,

484
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 1: because in your mind, this is completely and just, and

485
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 1: like there's just some red flags kind of popping up.

486
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 1: What were some of those red flags and how did

487
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:55,120
Speaker 1: you quell them?

488
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, And as you say, I'm justin also out of character.

489
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,920
Speaker 3: I'm thinking this man has all these women and surrounding him.

490
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,120
Speaker 3: In my young mind, I'm thinking he would never hurt

491
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 3: or be interested in being sexually involved with teens. So

492
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,639
Speaker 3: it's just. But equally I still think that. So the

493
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 3: way I interpret it is that just a lack of

494
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 3: judgment on his part. So even though that should have

495
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 3: been a red flag that he was he was potentially lying.

496
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 3: I just thought, okay, you don't let teens into your house.

497
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:25,919
Speaker 3: But okay, so you've made a terrible mistake. I do

498
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 3: get the court files. I do read through it, and

499
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,479
Speaker 3: there's so much detail that I'm going that's a red flags.

500
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,680
Speaker 3: I'm like, why would these girls explain in a great

501
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,919
Speaker 3: amount of detail if nothing had happened? And part of

502
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:44,159
Speaker 3: me just just just doesn't like stops reading wow, But

503
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,879
Speaker 3: I do. He does say in the court files that

504
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,359
Speaker 3: he was married to a woman in the US, and

505
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,160
Speaker 3: that really alarms me because that doesn't fit at all.

506
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 3: So I ask him. I asked him about that, and

507
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 3: he says, oh, no, I told you about it.

508
00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 1: Ah, does fucking rounder.

509
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 2: That's the worst, the worst manipulation. Oh no, no, no, I

510
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:04,439
Speaker 2: told you about it.

511
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,400
Speaker 1: It's no big blind by the gaslight.

512
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:13,199
Speaker 3: Gaslighting, right, And I'm like, no, you didn't and because no,

513
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 3: you did not, And he's like, oh, well, that marriage

514
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 3: was a note.

515
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 1: It was for a green card, no big deal.

516
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, just to orient ourselves here a little bit.

517
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:25,880
Speaker 2: At what point do you find that out? How deep

518
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 2: in are you?

519
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 3: I've known him for about a year. He's visiting in France,

520
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,679
Speaker 3: we've rented a place together that summer, I'm already working

521
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 3: with my dad, and my family's aware from my dad's

522
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,440
Speaker 3: aware of him. He tells the story to my dad

523
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 3: as well. Oh he does, and he sounds very honorable

524
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 3: by saying, I need to tell your dad about this.

525
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: What are your parents' impressions of him?

526
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 3: You know, my mom came on really strong, and she

527
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 3: found out we were together and was just like you.

528
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 3: He just basically was like you can't be with him,

529
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 3: but in a very severe tone, not as I'm saying

530
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 3: it now. She was like, all he cares about it

531
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,880
Speaker 3: sex and money. He's a terrible He's a bad, bad man,

532
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 3: and you know, so so that I didn't respond to

533
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 3: well and just assume that she didn't know him or

534
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:11,680
Speaker 3: understand him.

535
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 1: He'd prepped you for that a little, but like she'll

536
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: probably be jealous, and so you're like, okay, hater, like

537
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 1: move it along.

538
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, he had. And then my dad tries to

539
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 3: take a more subtle approach and not come down hard,

540
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 3: but then at some point does come down hard, and

541
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 3: then it makes no sense either kind of you know,

542
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 3: blows up one day and says, you know what he

543
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 3: is and I'm so confused because I'm like, I don't know, like,

544
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 3: are you saying that he's a criminal? Dad? Like I'm thinking,

545
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 3: but I'm like, then why did you agree to help

546
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 3: him on his case? So so all of that was

547
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 3: very confusing.

548
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 1: Behavior would be lost.

549
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's exactly it. And you know, no one

550
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 3: came and said, like, let's talk about this, but you know,

551
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 3: hindsight being twenty twenty, you know, I you know, I

552
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 3: just didn't have anyone to really unpick what was happening.

553
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 3: Plus I was having such a strong pull on the

554
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,199
Speaker 3: arun side that it there was that as well to

555
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 3: contend with.

556
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:09,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, what made your family reach out to cult interventionists?

557
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, so we were together, So we've been We married

558
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 3: in France and I was probably a couple two three

559
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 3: years into my work life and Aaron found out that

560
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 3: I actually had property in my name in France that

561
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:27,400
Speaker 3: I had never had access to. So he doesn't say

562
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,919
Speaker 3: this right away, but he's like, hey, like you should

563
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 3: actually get hold of this apartment. And I'm going no, no, no,

564
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,439
Speaker 3: like it's my mom's and he kind of you know,

565
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 3: builds up the case like, no, it's in your name,

566
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 3: it should be yours. I'm like, no, my mom needs

567
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 3: it to live, and he's like, your mom does not

568
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 3: need it. Do you see how she lives, Like she

569
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 3: lives a luxurious life. She doesn't need it. You need it.

570
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 3: So it's like that little devil on your shoulder bringing

571
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 3: like it's yours, it's yours. Meanwhile, he's like no, no, no,

572
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 3: like you're entitled to it. So I follow his advice,

573
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 3: and Tao intervened.

574
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 1: His elder Yeah, elder, why says you know what.

575
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 3: Like, I'm setting this up for you to get hold

576
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 3: of this apartment. Are you going to reject it?

577
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 1: I'm doing all this work on the other side, like

578
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 1: when I got you into your MBA program, like hello.

579
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 3: I make this apartment available to you, Like all this

580
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 3: stuff hasn't happened before me. So I'm going, hmmm, that's interesting.

581
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 3: So then I'm still very worried about doing this to

582
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 3: my mom, even though I can legally do it, but

583
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 3: I'm very worried about that. But I tell her, I'm like, mom,

584
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 3: I'm going to be the next person who takes the apartment.

585
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 3: And she's like oh, And so she is not happy,

586
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 3: but she doesn't make a fuss about it. But then

587
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 3: she and my dad together then say he's taken things

588
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 3: too far and tried to do a cult intervention.

589
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: You caught onto that. They're kind of seeing it in

590
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 1: their email. What do you think would have happened if

591
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: they actually went through with that?

592
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 3: You know, I don't know. My mom says to me.

593
00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 3: My mom's pretty open about what was going on there,

594
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 3: and she says that the person that they spoke to

595
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 3: said to them, we need to be very careful because

596
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 3: if this doesn't work, we'll push her more towards him.

597
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 3: I'm just seeing it very much at face value, as

598
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 3: like a war, like you didn't care until it started

599
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 3: to hit your pocket. That's how I read it, And

600
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 3: especially with my dad, I'm like, this has been your story,

601
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 3: your whole life, Like I have different values, and I

602
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 3: can't believe you're doing this to me. You're going to

603
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 3: hurt me, because I just thought purely as you're going

604
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 3: to ruin my life at that point. Also to say,

605
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 3: I was in a high paying job, I was managing

606
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 3: a team, I was leading a normal life on the

607
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 3: outside while being controlled inside and so and then I

608
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 3: just I called a lawyer myself and I said, look,

609
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 3: they're trying to say I'm not in their right mind

610
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 3: just to get the apartment back, and that's when the

611
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 3: French door was like, you know, that's going to be

612
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 3: hard to prove. I wouldn't worry about it, and so

613
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 3: I feel kind of strong. I feel like, oh, well,

614
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 3: you know, I'm calling their bluff.

615
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 1: Right right, No cult intervention for me.

616
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 2: I had a job, which obviously he wanted you to

617
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 2: have a job because you were making him money. But

618
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 2: were there other aspects of your life that in retrospect

619
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 2: you feel we're very controlled by him that should not

620
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 2: have been.

621
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 3: Oh that's interesting. I mean, yeah, like I think he

622
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 3: wanted to have a hand in every aspect of my life,

623
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 3: my friendships. So it was very hard to make friendships

624
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 3: with someone like that. Where he had an opportunity to

625
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 3: challenge childhood friendships and say they're not on board with

626
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,719
Speaker 3: your current life, he did it, so I had. You know,

627
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 3: this part is not in the book, but I had

628
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 3: a very close friend from the US and for we

629
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 3: had a ten year break in our friendship over something minor,

630
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 3: but that came from him around you know, she questioned

631
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 3: my taking his surname and he said, you see, she

632
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 3: doesn't respect you. I don't know. We kind of broke

633
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 3: up and luckily got that our friendship you know, reignited.

634
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 3: So I think he tried to play his hand into

635
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 3: every aspect family to some degree. He always said that,

636
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 3: you know, my mom might be problematic. Cheat. We stayed connected,

637
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 3: you know, throughout all these these years.

638
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 1: I mean this man even wrote your boss at one point, yeah,

639
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 1: like yeah, when behind your back and was like we

640
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 1: need this, like he wow, I yeah. Every every layer

641
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: of life, he would just swoop it yep.

642
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 3: Yeah. In terms of looks as well, Like I think

643
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 3: I don't remember him saying I had to dress demurely,

644
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 3: but I certainly felt like that was the right thing

645
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,719
Speaker 3: to do, both by Indian culture and for him, so

646
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 3: that he would be the only one to look at me.

647
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 3: I would never wear my hair down like this. It

648
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 3: would need to be either in a bun or in

649
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 3: a single braid, or at least half up. So there

650
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 3: was all about self effacing, you know. Behavior. Food, he

651
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 3: would control kind of what we ate, were we allowed

652
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 3: to eat. At first, he said he was a vegetarian.

653
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 3: Some years down the line he brought in chicken laid

654
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 3: our pork, so he would control every aspect, also what

655
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 3: time we went to bed, what time we went what

656
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 3: time we woke up, and all. So one thing I

657
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 3: do say in the book is he insisted on sleeping

658
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 3: hugging the entire night. Yeah, which is really And it

659
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 3: was like, I can't believe I was I mean, I

660
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 3: was young. My sleep cycle back then was okay, probably

661
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 3: ruined it, but back then, you know, you're young, and

662
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 3: you just so so like if anybody turned in the night,

663
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 3: the other person had to kind of reverse the hug.

664
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 2: Oh my god, that is a nightmare.

665
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 3: It's weird how he demanded that. And he even at

666
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 3: some point he was sleeping, you know, without a T

667
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 3: shirt on, and obviously if I'm hugging it, and he's like, oh,

668
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 3: I can feel you breathe. This is so uncomfortable. Now

669
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 3: I'm gonna have to sleep with a T shirt because

670
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 3: you're breathing.

671
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.

672
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 3: Talk about And I was like, what do you expect

673
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 3: me to do? Oh, you're not you know, so, But

674
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 3: I think he was like he implied that we were

675
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 3: connected during the night and that we would travel together probably.

676
00:33:57,640 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 1: Oh.

677
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 3: And the thing is, if you sleep that way with someone,

678
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,479
Speaker 3: you get very warm and so you have very straight

679
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 3: I'm linking it, very strange dreams, very vivid dreams. So

680
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 3: I would then interpret my own vivid dreams as travels.

681
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 2: Like astral projection or like traveling yeah.

682
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 3: Whatever he was doing, yeah exactly, or like messages or

683
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 3: you know, because because I mean, I think when you

684
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,280
Speaker 3: have a very vivid dream, sometimes you do think without

685
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 3: any spiritual like what's that dream about or what's telling me?

686
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 3: Or what's going on with my own feelings or unconscious

687
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 3: So there was some of that, but definitely there was

688
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 3: just this very active dreaming.

689
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 2: I want to hear about Angela. Would it be skipping

690
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 2: too far ahead to start getting into really no.

691
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 3: In the sense that it's kind of sequentially where we

692
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 3: are where I've been with him at this point. For

693
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:00,880
Speaker 3: I want to say, we've been together about seven years,

694
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 3: and he after a difficult period in the UK, which

695
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 3: was around this whole apartment thing and the cult intervention,

696
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 3: but he's still really unhappy in the UK, and just

697
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,279
Speaker 3: you know, our household is like for me, feels like

698
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,799
Speaker 3: this pit of despair. I don't understand why. I don't

699
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 3: understand the psychology behind why. It's just such a hard

700
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 3: place to live. But for him, it's because he's depressed

701
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 3: and he hates it there, and he's almost suicidal. He

702
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 3: doesn't use that word, but he says, if we stay

703
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 3: in the UK, I'm going to die. So he gets

704
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 3: me to get my job transferred to France, which is

705
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 3: not what the company wants, but to negotiate, you know,

706
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:39,279
Speaker 3: with an HR director. Long story short, We make it

707
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 3: back to Paris and he tells me everything's going to

708
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 3: be fine, and I do feel again this wave of

709
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 3: you know, relief. I say, Okay, We've gotten through that

710
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,359
Speaker 3: terrible period. And I'm having these spiritual explanations at this

711
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,240
Speaker 3: point in my mind all the time. I'm like, okay,

712
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 3: really bad patch. The dark forces. The light forces are back,

713
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 3: you know. And so he meets this young yoga teacher

714
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,720
Speaker 3: who teaches a shanga yoga, who's learned a shanga yoga,

715
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 3: and they hit it off, kind of protege to master relationship.

716
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 3: Young man who's just several years younger than me, who

717
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 3: is also incidentally, I don't say this in the book,

718
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 3: but who's missing it, who doesn't have a father figure

719
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,359
Speaker 3: and his life very close to his mom, latches onto

720
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 3: a room who's also a yoga master who is a

721
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,759
Speaker 3: yoga master in his mind. And I see them really

722
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 3: hitting it off, and Gabriel that the young man takes

723
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 3: a room to teach his buddy. So I'm like, wow,

724
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 3: we've made a friend. Like we've lived in Europe for

725
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 3: several years, we're not able to connect and you know,

726
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 3: make friends, but here we've met Gabriel. I start to say,

727
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 3: why don't you start a yoga school with Gabriel, And

728
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 3: that's how it starts off. And then I say, at

729
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 3: some point, let's start our own school, and a room

730
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 3: you know says no, the elders don't allow it. Finally,

731
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 3: the elders, you know, I keep badgering him because I'm thinking,

732
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 3: this man without an activity, this isn't sustainable. He's going

733
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 3: to be depressed again. So we do end up getting

734
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 3: a yoga school, which puts a lot of financial burden

735
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,799
Speaker 3: on us both I'm thinking, but really on me. And

736
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:13,799
Speaker 3: then several just about a month or so into the

737
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 3: yoga school, Gabriel introduces us to a young woman called

738
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 3: Angel who's the same aide. So I'm thirty at that point,

739
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,839
Speaker 3: they're both twenty five, and yeah, that's how angela comes

740
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 3: into our life.

741
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,840
Speaker 1: She comes storming on in. You immediately have a negative reaction,

742
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 1: but kind of push it down or just decide to

743
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 1: extend your kindness anyway. And she quickly becomes a staple

744
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 1: in this yoga studio as a massage therapist and kind

745
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:48,320
Speaker 1: of third wheel Tiaal's relationship. How does this start going away?

746
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 3: So one day She's probably probably known her a couple

747
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 3: of months, and so a Arun's been preparing it that

748
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 3: she's like our long lost family member, that there's a

749
00:37:57,680 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 3: reason she was drawn to us. Never mind that she

750
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 3: did a job and was getting a job and housing

751
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 3: from us and that was reason enough. No, Like, he

752
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,279
Speaker 3: creates the whole same narrative that he's trying to do

753
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 3: with me of creating a special link with her. First

754
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 3: he asked me whether I want her to live with us,

755
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 3: and I don't understand that because I'm like, no, I

756
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 3: don't want anyone to live with my husband and me let.

757
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 1: Me think no that comes out quickly, I'm like no, no.

758
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 3: But then so after he tried the different tech, then

759
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 3: he tries to encourage us to like have a sleepover

760
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 3: once a week, and again I'm like okay, Well, I'll

761
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 3: do it if you really want me to. I don't

762
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 3: really want that again. You know, that was to teach

763
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 3: her meditation. So that goes on. So the finally he

764
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 3: says she's housed white from a past life, and I

765
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,320
Speaker 3: immediately know what he's talking about at that point. Yeah,

766
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:55,879
Speaker 3: but I'm thinking, this is terrible news. This shattered what

767
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 3: I'm assuming was a safe world. It wasn't, but I

768
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 3: felt it was a safe world with him. And then

769
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 3: I'm thinking, well, how is my brother. So they're going

770
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 3: to keep platonic, there's no way anything would happen, and

771
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 3: then when it does, then my world does shatter.

772
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 1: H one of the hardest things I've ever read.

773
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 2: So ostensibly you are married to him when he's one

774
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 2: person in his body and she is with a different

775
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 2: person in his same body. Is how Angela? Yeah, what

776
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 2: did you think?

777
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 3: I think My first reaction was just like like it

778
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 3: felt like dying, Like it was just like it felt

779
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:37,760
Speaker 3: like I'd been erased, you know. So the shame, the

780
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 3: shame that I had let it happen, even once, that

781
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:44,279
Speaker 3: I hadn't just said no to tell an Angela, the

782
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:46,800
Speaker 3: you know, just just being I felt like I felt

783
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 3: it was this terrible feeling. But then the next morning,

784
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:54,240
Speaker 3: when sort of my more conscious mind came back, I thought, well,

785
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 3: we're going to work through this. Like so I asked him,

786
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 3: I'm like, what's going to happen? I can't what if

787
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 3: I can't take it? And he says, well, then it

788
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:08,240
Speaker 3: will end, and he implies that then Tao will never return.

789
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 1: And now quote unquote killed an elder before, so he

790
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 1: that's implying that he's going to kill your brother Tao

791
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 1: and the other realm, which obviously you've been talking to

792
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 1: Tao almost like commiserating with him about his other sides behavior.

793
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 1: So this is like your buddy, you don't want him

794
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 1: to die, but he's also having sex with your friends,

795
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 1: so it's weird exactly.

796
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 3: And then the other problem we've had now is that Angela.

797
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 3: Because Arun had no intention of working in the yoga school,

798
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 3: like of working at all, like his intentions were never

799
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 3: to work, Angela stepped up, and Angela's like willing to

800
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 3: work and willing to contribute to the yoga school. So

801
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 3: now I'm kind of relying on her as well, and

802
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 3: Gabriel and her, So the whole thing would have had

803
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 3: to unravel, and I'm thinking, how do we bring this up?

804
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 3: And when a room senses my discomfort, I think he

805
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:13,719
Speaker 3: keeps saying, look, maybe there'll be a solution or maybe,

806
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 3: And in my mind, I'm like, there will be, but

807
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 3: I'm just waiting when and how we break this up.

808
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,319
Speaker 3: I'm not going to live my whole life with her there.

809
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:25,839
Speaker 2: Practically speaking, how did that work? Like did she come

810
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 2: over certain days? Like how did that work?

811
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 3: So? No, so Tao? So he would transform into Tao

812
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 3: on certain days and then go be with her. But

813
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 3: she was also like a family member. We saw her

814
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 3: every day, she would go to lunch, like every Saturday.

815
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 3: It was implied that we were very good friends. And

816
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 3: at some point and in a way she I felt look,

817
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 3: she had reached into my hit of despair. So like

818
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 3: I was on some level deeply unhappy with the ruin,

819
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 3: although I couldn't like consciously admit that, but she'd come

820
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 3: into it, and she was getting in my mind a

821
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,799
Speaker 3: raw deal because I'm like, wait, I'm with this guy. Now,

822
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:11,840
Speaker 3: you're this young woman, talented young woman. Yeah, I know

823
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:13,880
Speaker 3: you need the job and everything, but you want to

824
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 3: be his spirits lover. Like I guess I felt like

825
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:19,799
Speaker 3: glad to have a friend in a way in that

826
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 3: terrible place that I was in on some level. But

827
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:23,880
Speaker 3: then what I think what was hard for me is

828
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:26,319
Speaker 3: when I tried to speak with her about run and

829
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 3: the problematic aspects, I felt she'd just shut that down

830
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,799
Speaker 3: real quick. However, it was not a great friendship in

831
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 3: a way.

832
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 1: I have a really quick aside on that. Like you

833
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 1: when you first get the building that you guys start

834
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 1: citity yoga and he calls Gabriel, and Gabriel is very

835
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 1: short about it. And then Gabriel is the one who

836
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:48,280
Speaker 1: brings Angela in and she already enters with this bizarre energy.

837
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:52,239
Speaker 1: And Gabriel later on we learn we won't give away

838
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:56,839
Speaker 1: the book, but some unbecoming things about him. Were they

839
00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:00,720
Speaker 1: colluding on something? Like did she come in? She says

840
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 1: to one point, I knew what I was getting myself into,

841
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 1: Like at.

842
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 3: The very end, Yeah, you know what I know. I

843
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 3: don't think they were colluding. I think the I mean,

844
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:12,920
Speaker 3: at least I have no evidence to suggest that. But

845
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 3: what I would say is they were both seekers in

846
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 3: their own way and both needed to work. Like there

847
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 3: was that element of she was not in a great

848
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 3: place when we met her in Paris. She probably would

849
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,840
Speaker 3: have been fine in Portugal, where she came from, but

850
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 3: she was struggling to get a footing in Paris and

851
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 3: her work, so she was vulnerable that way, you know,

852
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 3: and maybe other ways that you know that are private

853
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 3: to her that I didn't put into the book, but

854
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 3: like psychological things, you know, that people come with. And

855
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 3: then Gabriel also I think, looked up to a room,

856
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 3: so I think they were just friends. And then later on, yeah,

857
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 3: later on, I don't know, it kind of all fell apart,

858
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 3: but I don't think they were colluding. I think they

859
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 3: were just both. They both we're drawn to spirituality as

860
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:04,760
Speaker 3: a way to solve psychological issues.

861
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 1: My suspicious mind going, yeah, I want to start talking

862
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 1: about how you kind of emerged from the situation and

863
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 1: what happened after.

864
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, so it took a while. I mean, the

865
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 3: one big breaking point was when at some point I

866
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:26,359
Speaker 3: decide that because we live in this studio apartment, uh

867
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 3: that's just one room for four years while we're building

868
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:31,719
Speaker 3: the school to save money, and at some point I

869
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 3: get into my mind that I want to buy our

870
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 3: own place, so I want to sell my property and

871
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 3: buy my own place, and the Ruin's not very open

872
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 3: to that because he wants to like just keep a

873
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 3: keep Angela closer and all these kinds of things I say,

874
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:47,759
Speaker 3: and I and that's at that point, I'm like, no,

875
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 3: I want my own a permit. I don't. I Actually

876
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:51,880
Speaker 3: the fact that don't mean we'll be further from Angela

877
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 3: is a plus for me.

878
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:54,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, So we do that.

879
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 3: But shortly after that, he goes back to India to

880
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 3: his cave in the Himalayas, and he comes back with

881
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 3: like a with a neurological accident. It doesn't happen right away,

882
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:09,399
Speaker 3: but he has this carbon monoxide poisoning and that does

883
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 3: change things a lot. So, I mean, I won't go

884
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:13,879
Speaker 3: into all that detail, but it does mean that he's

885
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:17,160
Speaker 3: a weak in personality compared to who he was. Whether

886
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 3: that was really what happened to him, I don't know,

887
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 3: but I can tell you that he did have very

888
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 3: obvious neurological changes. He wasn't no because because it wasn't

889
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:30,240
Speaker 3: as in his interest, it actually made his mask fall

890
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:34,719
Speaker 3: more readily and he became a much less charismatic, we

891
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 3: can say, version of himself. But really what started to

892
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 3: bring it to a head is at some point I'm

893
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 3: in I'm in my mid thirties and I'm about to

894
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 3: lose my corporate job. And everything else is sustained by

895
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:48,319
Speaker 3: this job, like our French residency depends on it. All

896
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:52,200
Speaker 3: our income. The yoga school barely breaks even. Sometimes I

897
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:55,080
Speaker 3: even have to supplant with savings. Like it's these are

898
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 3: all places where money is being drawn out, not that

899
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 3: are not giving money. So when I'm about to lose

900
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 3: that job, I say to myself, that's when I realize, actually,

901
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 3: a room's not been working for all the years we've

902
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 3: been together. And that's when I think I have an

903
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 3: awakening of my own power. I'm like, actually, I've been

904
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 3: doing all the work, and I start to step back

905
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 3: and say, yeah, he recommended the MBA, but that's where

906
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 3: it stopped. And the other thing I realize is if

907
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 3: I lose this job, I really don't know what's going

908
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 3: to happen. I tell him about it, and he doesn't

909
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:30,319
Speaker 3: seem concerned at all. And then I find another job

910
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 3: in an acquiring company, which I wasn't expecting. And then

911
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 3: I commit to myself that that is actually a blessing,

912
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:40,360
Speaker 3: a gift, and I need to make this new job work,

913
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:43,440
Speaker 3: because there's every possibility that when you're acquired as an employee,

914
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:45,880
Speaker 3: you may not be kept. Maybe your job already exists.

915
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 3: So I'm like, no, I'm going to make this work.

916
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 3: And I do change, and I start to become open

917
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 3: to things outside of the yoga world. I start to

918
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 3: realize that the yoga world and the world of meditation

919
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 3: has not sustained me. There is a world outside, and

920
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 3: I need to show up in that world by smiling

921
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 3: and by talking to people and by you know, putting

922
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 3: my best foot forward. And that starts to change things.

923
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 3: I start to make friends at work. That's where I

924
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 3: meet Trevor, and it really is a mindset shift. But

925
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 3: for me, when I look back, it was lifting myself

926
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 3: up from the cult aspect of what I was living

927
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 3: because literally before that moment, I didn't believe that people

928
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 3: outside the yoga world were really at the same level people. Well,

929
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 3: that's how embedded I was in it.

930
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:35,719
Speaker 1: It reminds me of Moses Storm's story Lolo, when he

931
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:38,480
Speaker 1: met the girl at the grocery store and realized that,

932
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:40,480
Speaker 1: you know, he kind of had a crush you kind

933
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 1: of had a crush on Trevor, not at first, but

934
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 1: you realize that you did, and you start dedicating yourself

935
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:51,960
Speaker 1: to a more physical reality than kind of the esoteric

936
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:54,879
Speaker 1: mentality you've been inhibiting till then.

937
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you've been so deprived of outside connection that

938
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 2: whole time. I mean, we see very commonly when people

939
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 2: begin to make connections outside of their little small world,

940
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:07,719
Speaker 2: that is when the mind could kind of start to

941
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 2: open up and allow them to think beyond the leader

942
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:14,319
Speaker 2: or the guru or the husband or whatever. So when

943
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 2: you started to feel more empowered as an individual, what

944
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:20,239
Speaker 2: happened with a root or do not want to give

945
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 2: it away?

946
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 3: No, I know, I don't mind. I mean, one thing

947
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 3: I will say as well is that it is gradual.

948
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 3: I think changing my mindset was the first step, and

949
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:32,120
Speaker 3: I began to feel differently and have different values. But

950
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:37,320
Speaker 3: when Trevor and I do start to develop a closer

951
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 3: relationship and I started telling them what's happening at home,

952
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:45,279
Speaker 3: he actually listens and doesn't immediately say none of that

953
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:47,439
Speaker 3: can be true. So I think that is the one

954
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:49,839
Speaker 3: thing I would say as well, that I was quite

955
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:51,840
Speaker 3: lucky that someone was willing to listen to some of

956
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 3: these stories. And he came in with his own mindset

957
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 3: thinking this isn't right, but not it's not true. So

958
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:00,359
Speaker 3: it's two different things. Like he was quite worried and

959
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:03,359
Speaker 3: just like alerting me to this is not, you know,

960
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:06,319
Speaker 3: a right way to behave. Arun is kind of in

961
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 3: his own world. I don't think he notices I'm changing,

962
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:13,440
Speaker 3: So he kind of needs to be hit over the

963
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:16,239
Speaker 3: head with it like he is, because if you think

964
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:19,439
Speaker 3: about it, Arun didn't really want to invest that much

965
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 3: in the relationship with me. I mean he did and

966
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:23,399
Speaker 3: he didn't, but we know in the end, I don't

967
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:24,759
Speaker 3: think this is giving it away. I think people will

968
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:26,839
Speaker 3: know from the beginning that he doesn't love me. So

969
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 3: he's not noticing that I'm pulling away. I'm doing it gradually.

970
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 3: He's also his health issues are starting to be more

971
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:37,719
Speaker 3: and more prohibitive, so like it's affecting his sex life

972
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 3: and that really worries him. Yeah, I'm like yes, but

973
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:44,399
Speaker 3: he's like at that point, I'm really you know, out

974
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:46,880
Speaker 3: of love with him at some point. I'm delighted that

975
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:49,719
Speaker 3: you know that part is falling away. But he's very

976
00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:52,279
Speaker 3: concerned because again the hook, right, how is he going

977
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:54,920
Speaker 3: to hook these young women if he's not performing.

978
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 1: Actually, do you think he was sleeping with more women

979
00:49:58,680 --> 00:49:59,720
Speaker 1: than just you and Angela?

980
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 3: It's possible. It's possible. I think that he might have been.

981
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:09,239
Speaker 3: You know, I hint about the widow in Rishikesho who

982
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:11,840
Speaker 3: you know, wants to be married to him, and he

983
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 3: certainly was on the lookout for other vulnerable women. And

984
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 3: when around the same time, when he gets Angela as

985
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:21,799
Speaker 3: Tao's white, he then identifies to other women as other

986
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:24,640
Speaker 3: wives of Tao. And that's where I'm like, no, no, no, no,

987
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 3: like there's.

988
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:28,040
Speaker 1: There's one life for a doubt, thank you.

989
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:33,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm trying to but no, he and then there's

990
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:37,799
Speaker 3: this other young client that shows up later on and

991
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 3: where he says, if we ask her, shall lift for us.

992
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:46,080
Speaker 3: So he tries tries to slip in. But definitely I

993
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:49,360
Speaker 3: think a sex ring or a harem type situation is

994
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 3: I think what he wanted to have.

995
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:56,440
Speaker 2: Wow, my mom, when she believed in our cult leader,

996
00:50:56,719 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 2: he sprang a second wife upon her as a revelation

997
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:04,280
Speaker 2: as well. It's so funny how I mean, it's not funny,

998
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 2: but no, it's just like incredible, how you know, such

999
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 2: completely different worlds, completely different communities, completely different belief systems.

1000
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 2: Everything you're describing sounds so similar to this other situation,

1001
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 2: and it's just like impressive how much they are all

1002
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 2: the same, you know, like and how.

1003
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:26,319
Speaker 1: They're depending on that fallacy that you've already put so

1004
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 1: much in that you're like, unconsciously, Okay, there's another past

1005
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:33,400
Speaker 1: life wife, got it, or in your case, Lola, your

1006
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:36,359
Speaker 1: mom's case, like, there's another prophesized wife.

1007
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:40,239
Speaker 3: And they keep you running, like the cults keep you

1008
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:43,320
Speaker 3: working and running. And one of the things that really

1009
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 3: helped my self esteem after I started to come out

1010
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 3: of it, and even after, you know, having written the

1011
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 3: book and everything is like, they're not you know, you're

1012
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:55,319
Speaker 3: not necessarily weak for having been a target. They need,

1013
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:57,759
Speaker 3: you know, they want people who work hard, they want

1014
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:00,279
Speaker 3: people who will keep up this sort of so it

1015
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:03,920
Speaker 3: really felt like running in place there. Definitely, Financially, I

1016
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:06,880
Speaker 3: was not able to save anything the whole time that

1017
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 3: I was with him, and that makes no sense. We

1018
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:11,920
Speaker 3: should have been saving money. I was on a top salary.

1019
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:16,080
Speaker 3: Yes I was the only earner, but still yeah, and

1020
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:19,439
Speaker 3: I used to feel so proud of that. It really

1021
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:24,040
Speaker 3: fed into my feminist ideology that I did not want

1022
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 3: to be, uh you know, uh dependent on a man's salary.

1023
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:30,920
Speaker 3: And I used to would even have challenged someone and

1024
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:32,879
Speaker 3: I would have said, well, if if it was him

1025
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:35,400
Speaker 3: earning and me not, you know, so what's wrong with this?

1026
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:36,680
Speaker 1: Right? Right?

1027
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 3: So it really fed into that and I felt very

1028
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:41,600
Speaker 3: proud of it. So it kept me working, and it

1029
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 3: kept me like just scrounging, and I, you know, hardly

1030
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 3: could buy any clothes, not that I wanted to, because

1031
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 3: like that's like physical and materialistic. So but meanwhile he

1032
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:55,920
Speaker 3: needed to have like everything he wanted, jewelry, clothes, and

1033
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:58,799
Speaker 3: I think looking back, he's probably just taking money back

1034
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:02,480
Speaker 3: to India, taking cat I wasn't watching, you know what

1035
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:03,880
Speaker 3: he was spending.

1036
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:07,360
Speaker 2: So, yeah, that guy targeted my mom when she like

1037
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:11,759
Speaker 2: had a show in development that had big people involved,

1038
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:14,600
Speaker 2: and we ended up being very poor. She didn't have

1039
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:16,920
Speaker 2: a lot of money, but it seemed like she was

1040
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:19,239
Speaker 2: going to have a lot of money, and then we

1041
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:22,440
Speaker 2: ended up like selling our stuff to fund whatever his

1042
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:25,720
Speaker 2: things were. Yeah, it's it's a very specific like type

1043
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 2: of sort of cult leader. I don't know what the

1044
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:31,399
Speaker 2: spiritual leader, I guess is maybe a more appropriate term

1045
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:32,719
Speaker 2: spiritual con man.

1046
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:34,280
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1047
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:37,480
Speaker 6: Yeah, but you know when I read about Keith Ranieri

1048
00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:39,880
Speaker 6: and next him again, it was there were so many

1049
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:44,120
Speaker 6: the arc and what he how he operated was so similar,

1050
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:47,920
Speaker 6: and even the origin stories.

1051
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 3: So in the beginning, when Keith Raniery was saying that

1052
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:52,000
Speaker 3: he had like the highest IQ in.

1053
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:54,960
Speaker 1: The world or Australia and Guinness Book of World Records

1054
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 1: that he created for himself.

1055
00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 3: Yeah right, that he completely made up. But that was

1056
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:01,919
Speaker 3: the same thing with the room claiming that his heir

1057
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:06,200
Speaker 3: was Bobbagie or whoever other illustrious leader is equivalent in

1058
00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:10,000
Speaker 3: that narrative that I come from the best, and I

1059
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:11,000
Speaker 3: am the best.

1060
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:14,320
Speaker 2: I am special, I have a privileged, unique access.

1061
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1062
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:16,680
Speaker 2: And by the way, our listeners know this, but my

1063
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:18,759
Speaker 2: mom also I knew Keith Vniary as a child, and

1064
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:20,279
Speaker 2: he was targeting my mom at the same time as

1065
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:22,360
Speaker 2: she was trying to extricate herself from the.

1066
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:25,840
Speaker 1: Other lots a cult. That's a cult.

1067
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:29,239
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and they were very similar. And it was

1068
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:32,480
Speaker 2: so funny because he was critiquing the other guy while

1069
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:35,799
Speaker 2: he was doing the exact same thing. And again ten

1070
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:37,399
Speaker 2: years later he started exiom.

1071
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:38,359
Speaker 1: Not funny at all.

1072
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:42,200
Speaker 2: Not funny at all, but also just like impress it like.

1073
00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:43,920
Speaker 1: It's just like crazy.

1074
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:47,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and so now looking back, how did you

1075
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:50,240
Speaker 2: officially move on with your life?

1076
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:53,840
Speaker 3: So the breakup? So I eventually I separated from a

1077
00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 3: room seventeen years after we met, and then a year

1078
00:54:56,760 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 3: later we were divorced. Luckily, we were able to divorce,

1079
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:03,920
Speaker 3: as you know, without a big legal case, in other words,

1080
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:10,799
Speaker 3: mutual consent. And where I realized what had happened is

1081
00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:14,360
Speaker 3: after we were divorced. So throughout our year of separation,

1082
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:16,960
Speaker 3: used to call me and whine and ask for money

1083
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:20,160
Speaker 3: and ask for different things, and you know, negotiate the

1084
00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:23,719
Speaker 3: terms of the divorce. And then when that was all over,

1085
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:27,440
Speaker 3: he stopped calling. You know, at some point I had

1086
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:29,040
Speaker 3: to say there is no more money coming. You know,

1087
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:30,880
Speaker 3: we had a final conversation than I never heard from

1088
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:33,200
Speaker 3: him again. And that's when I realized. I was like, oh,

1089
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:35,239
Speaker 3: so I said to Trevor, I'm like, I kind of

1090
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:36,879
Speaker 3: let the words drop going do you think he ever

1091
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:39,440
Speaker 3: loved me? And that's it's one of those questions you

1092
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:44,280
Speaker 3: ask out loud and then you in like in a second,

1093
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:48,960
Speaker 3: I just saw the whole scheme. I was targeted in

1094
00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 3: Rishikesh and then all the other you know, you get

1095
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:54,880
Speaker 3: these like flash image points of the different moments, like

1096
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:57,520
Speaker 3: these cards, like these photographs, and you're like, ah, this

1097
00:55:57,640 --> 00:55:59,279
Speaker 3: is what he was doing along the way, and it's

1098
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:02,919
Speaker 3: just longer. I mean, once it was over. In a way,

1099
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:06,920
Speaker 3: it was it was liberating because I was perturbed with

1100
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:11,239
Speaker 3: this idea that I betrayed my love, like I was

1101
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:15,160
Speaker 3: really you know, he had he had his caws into me. Yeah,

1102
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:18,200
Speaker 3: I was confident that I'd fall in love with someone

1103
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:21,600
Speaker 3: else that I wanted to be with Trevor. You know,

1104
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:25,160
Speaker 3: I was delighted that Trevor and I are very similar ages.

1105
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:27,040
Speaker 3: That was really important to me. So part of me

1106
00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:30,160
Speaker 3: knew that living with somebody much older is is not

1107
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:33,280
Speaker 3: really what I wanted for myself. So I was making

1108
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:37,399
Speaker 3: changes that were positive. But deep inside, your mind does

1109
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 3: get warped by these experiences. And I remember in the

1110
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:45,359
Speaker 3: years following, so it's been so that happened eleven years ago.

1111
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:49,120
Speaker 3: We were divorced in twenty thirteen, and there were times

1112
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:51,600
Speaker 3: in the years following where I'd get like these flashes

1113
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:56,239
Speaker 3: of like a good room memory, and I was like, whoa, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

1114
00:56:56,719 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 3: there's nothing good, you know, because like the brain gets

1115
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:03,719
Speaker 3: jinx with like some times where they actually hooked you

1116
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:05,880
Speaker 3: in a positive emotion and that.

1117
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:09,759
Speaker 1: And that is like a very important point that I've

1118
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:13,560
Speaker 1: been learning about recently, is that flashbacks are not always negative.

1119
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:17,600
Speaker 1: They can also be positive, and those are very dangerous.

1120
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:20,200
Speaker 3: They are dangerous because a part of me was like,

1121
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:23,240
Speaker 3: what are you so yes, and those don't happen anymore,

1122
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:25,320
Speaker 3: and I had to do the process and I'm catching

1123
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:27,840
Speaker 3: myself being like, why am I having like a fond

1124
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:29,840
Speaker 3: a room, you know, a fond memory of a room.

1125
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:32,760
Speaker 3: And then the night terror started, which I think was

1126
00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:36,640
Speaker 3: the unconscious way of like reckoning with the fear and

1127
00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:40,240
Speaker 3: the danger I'd been in but not ever recognized all

1128
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:45,080
Speaker 3: those years. Yeah, that's something apart from the exploitation of

1129
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:47,840
Speaker 3: money and the sex. This these are very like dangerous

1130
00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:52,800
Speaker 3: and you know, evil nefarious personalities. There's there definitely is

1131
00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:55,560
Speaker 3: this flip side of you know, partly we can people

1132
00:57:55,560 --> 00:57:58,439
Speaker 3: have asked what was his story, and yes, I'm sure

1133
00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:01,120
Speaker 3: he has a story. We all do, so I'm not

1134
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:04,200
Speaker 3: belittling that. But by the time they get to be

1135
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:07,240
Speaker 3: doing what they're doing, there, very far from the original

1136
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:10,520
Speaker 3: place that put them into that vulnerability, that made them

1137
00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:11,280
Speaker 3: create that mask.

1138
00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:14,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean your mom mentioned that she was afraid

1139
00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:17,000
Speaker 1: he might murder you, but knew that the gravy train

1140
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:20,280
Speaker 1: would stop if he did, so, like just hoped that

1141
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:22,600
Speaker 1: he wouldn't. And I mean he even told you if

1142
00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:25,400
Speaker 1: you sleep with another man, I'll kill you both. Like

1143
00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:28,960
Speaker 1: he was a dangerous, dangerous person. And I can't even

1144
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:32,360
Speaker 1: imagine what it feels like to look back in retrospect

1145
00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:37,360
Speaker 1: and know you were so close to such a dangerous man.

1146
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:38,560
Speaker 1: That's really wild.

1147
00:58:39,160 --> 00:58:43,000
Speaker 3: I think the brain does some healing on its own,

1148
00:58:43,080 --> 00:58:46,080
Speaker 3: in the sense I'd never tried to linger back into

1149
00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:49,520
Speaker 3: the fear well or put myself back. I think my

1150
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:51,960
Speaker 3: primary emotions when I left him were too They were

1151
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:55,600
Speaker 3: gratitude and fear. So that was the first things I felt.

1152
00:58:55,640 --> 00:59:00,280
Speaker 3: Gratitude that I had left, so did feel It's like

1153
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:02,840
Speaker 3: a huge load. It felt like something had been pressing

1154
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:05,040
Speaker 3: in on me for years and that was off, so

1155
00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:08,720
Speaker 3: that was like a breath of could breathe again. But

1156
00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:13,720
Speaker 3: then also fear that I had been hooked and manipulated

1157
00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:16,120
Speaker 3: and deceived so badly, and like how on earth did

1158
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:16,919
Speaker 3: I believe that?

1159
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:19,160
Speaker 2: When did you stop believing in the elders?

1160
00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:21,320
Speaker 3: Pretty much when I realized he never loved me, And

1161
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:24,040
Speaker 3: I realized in a flash that in that moment, yeah,

1162
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:26,720
Speaker 3: in that moment, because because leading up to the so,

1163
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:29,920
Speaker 3: there were just these weird things he would do, Like

1164
00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:33,400
Speaker 3: when we were when we first declared the separation or

1165
00:59:33,720 --> 00:59:35,400
Speaker 3: agreed that we would separate and he would go back

1166
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:38,400
Speaker 3: to India. He said to me, Then I guess it

1167
00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:40,640
Speaker 3: toyed with my mind that I knew I knew were

1168
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:42,840
Speaker 3: breaking up. But I said, this is a year before

1169
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:45,560
Speaker 3: a divorce. I said to him, well, were we really

1170
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:48,320
Speaker 3: married in a past life? He's like, yes, of course

1171
00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:51,200
Speaker 3: we were. And then he obviously picks it up as

1172
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:53,400
Speaker 3: a way back in so he's like, actually, baba Ge

1173
00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:54,240
Speaker 3: wants to meet you.

1174
00:59:54,880 --> 00:59:58,080
Speaker 1: The random master of all of it. You've never met before.

1175
00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:01,240
Speaker 1: This is the personality, right.

1176
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:03,840
Speaker 3: And when he comes, he's not someone you want to meet.

1177
01:00:03,880 --> 01:00:08,000
Speaker 3: And I'm shocked. I'm like, oh, he's awful, right, Really,

1178
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:10,919
Speaker 3: I have a version of Babaji was like very disappointing,

1179
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:15,800
Speaker 3: very greedy, like he like gobbled up these like little

1180
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:21,240
Speaker 3: sweets that I put out and like drank all this alcohol. Okay,

1181
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:26,360
Speaker 3: Grandmaster like and Grandmaster had only one question. Grandmaster was

1182
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:31,000
Speaker 3: like will you go back to him? And I was

1183
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:34,160
Speaker 3: like no, and He's like why not? And I was

1184
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:37,320
Speaker 3: like I cannot. But like our station was very sulted.

1185
01:00:37,400 --> 01:00:40,000
Speaker 3: But like what a final moment.

1186
01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:43,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, he really did that. He really went for that one.

1187
01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:50,200
Speaker 1: He really did. He is terrible, but you know he

1188
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:54,840
Speaker 1: he tried to do some interesting moves. I'll give him that.

1189
01:00:56,200 --> 01:01:01,720
Speaker 2: He really milked that acting talent. Yeah, I'm curious now, like,

1190
01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:06,680
Speaker 2: looking at the many spiritual communities that exist around yoga

1191
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:11,920
Speaker 2: or meditation, are there things that you would advise someone

1192
01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:14,360
Speaker 2: to maybe look out for or be wary of.

1193
01:01:14,760 --> 01:01:17,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. I mean I would be very wary

1194
01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:21,680
Speaker 3: of any guru figures. They've all been discredited in one

1195
01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:24,760
Speaker 3: way or another, So this is a real pattern. I

1196
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:28,600
Speaker 3: would be wary of giving anyone that power over you,

1197
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:32,200
Speaker 3: that they have the knowledge. Coming back to what you said, Lola,

1198
01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:34,400
Speaker 3: but when you know, we're younger and we want someone

1199
01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:36,240
Speaker 3: else to have the knowledge, and we pursue that knowledge.

1200
01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:38,800
Speaker 3: But I think that comes out of a need and

1201
01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:41,480
Speaker 3: maybe a belief or lack of belief in ourselves and

1202
01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:46,080
Speaker 3: our own potential. So I would be very worried about

1203
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:51,600
Speaker 3: anyone who put that spiritual leader above them in some way. Yeah,

1204
01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:55,640
Speaker 3: and then even in the practices themselves, people deify the

1205
01:01:55,720 --> 01:01:58,800
Speaker 3: practices like this is the practice that we must do

1206
01:01:59,040 --> 01:02:01,919
Speaker 3: to achieve this or this is the pose that will

1207
01:02:01,960 --> 01:02:05,360
Speaker 3: cure this ailment. And these things don't work that way,

1208
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:07,720
Speaker 3: you know, the way I see it now, And I

1209
01:02:07,720 --> 01:02:09,960
Speaker 3: don't think a lot of people in the yoga community

1210
01:02:10,080 --> 01:02:13,000
Speaker 3: necessarily would see it this way. But to me, these

1211
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:17,320
Speaker 3: are stretches, these are moves. Breathing exercises can be calming.

1212
01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:20,000
Speaker 3: You may choose to do them, you may not. You

1213
01:02:20,080 --> 01:02:23,240
Speaker 3: may also choose not to listen to that hypnotic voice

1214
01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:28,160
Speaker 3: while you're exercising. Because I had an experience with yoga Nidra,

1215
01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:31,200
Speaker 3: which is the yoga of sleep, and essentially we were

1216
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:35,240
Speaker 3: hypnotized in a group, but it wasn't called hypnosis, so

1217
01:02:35,360 --> 01:02:40,560
Speaker 3: when it was called lucid sleeping and the yoga of sleep,

1218
01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:43,880
Speaker 3: and when and after that experience, I went with a

1219
01:02:43,920 --> 01:02:46,240
Speaker 3: friend of mine, you know, who also had worked at

1220
01:02:46,280 --> 01:02:48,840
Speaker 3: my yoga school, who became a friend, and we both

1221
01:02:49,240 --> 01:02:53,160
Speaker 3: said how next day we chatted about our hypnotic yoga nidra,

1222
01:02:53,560 --> 01:02:55,360
Speaker 3: and she said, you know, I didn't feel great after that.

1223
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:57,440
Speaker 3: I was kind of on the couch and I said,

1224
01:02:57,800 --> 01:03:01,960
Speaker 3: neither did I. And we had been hypnotized without being told.

1225
01:03:02,040 --> 01:03:05,360
Speaker 3: So I would say be more careful than be more

1226
01:03:05,360 --> 01:03:08,160
Speaker 3: careful if you sense that people are going to promise

1227
01:03:08,240 --> 01:03:12,080
Speaker 3: things that sound, you know, really good, but how are

1228
01:03:12,120 --> 01:03:12,800
Speaker 3: they doing them?

1229
01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:15,960
Speaker 1: And I like what you said about like yoga's stretching

1230
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:18,320
Speaker 1: and breathing and you can definitely connect your mind and

1231
01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:22,120
Speaker 1: body and it's great, but it isn't this ancient thing

1232
01:03:22,200 --> 01:03:25,600
Speaker 1: that we've been taught. It's kind of a new can

1233
01:03:25,720 --> 01:03:27,800
Speaker 1: can you just say a little bit about what it

1234
01:03:27,840 --> 01:03:28,520
Speaker 1: actually is.

1235
01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:32,360
Speaker 3: I think the physical part that most people are doing

1236
01:03:32,440 --> 01:03:35,240
Speaker 3: is about one hundred years old, one hundred and fifty

1237
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:38,320
Speaker 3: years old. These exercises were developed out of India through

1238
01:03:38,360 --> 01:03:43,640
Speaker 3: sort of an amalgamation of fitness was you know, rising

1239
01:03:43,760 --> 01:03:45,160
Speaker 3: up in the world. I think there was a time

1240
01:03:45,200 --> 01:03:48,520
Speaker 3: when people were not doing fitness exercises that was in

1241
01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:52,520
Speaker 3: a cultural exchange with things that people were doing in India,

1242
01:03:52,560 --> 01:03:56,160
Speaker 3: and so they created their own indigenous like fitness practices

1243
01:03:57,040 --> 01:04:00,280
Speaker 3: called yoga that and called you know, call them. They

1244
01:04:00,360 --> 01:04:03,320
Speaker 3: use Sanskrit terms to give them, you know, an Indian flavor,

1245
01:04:03,520 --> 01:04:05,880
Speaker 3: and it was also linked up with Indian you know,

1246
01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:09,160
Speaker 3: independence and independence movements, so it is part of a

1247
01:04:09,160 --> 01:04:13,480
Speaker 3: whole cultural narrative. But no, it's not that ancient. And

1248
01:04:13,600 --> 01:04:16,479
Speaker 3: I think we just repeat that it's ancient, but those

1249
01:04:16,480 --> 01:04:19,400
Speaker 3: are you know, that's not what people are practicing today.

1250
01:04:19,920 --> 01:04:22,600
Speaker 3: I do think people can use say it's not above

1251
01:04:22,720 --> 01:04:26,600
Speaker 3: scrutiny and it's not above change. I've been to yoga

1252
01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:29,280
Speaker 3: classes taught by you know, physical therapists that are like, no,

1253
01:04:29,360 --> 01:04:31,360
Speaker 3: we're not going to do it that way because that's

1254
01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:34,240
Speaker 3: not great for your body. You don't have to you know,

1255
01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:36,240
Speaker 3: lock your knees or just different things. So the thing

1256
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:40,320
Speaker 3: people make too much of it. And also I found

1257
01:04:40,360 --> 01:04:42,520
Speaker 3: that when I was done, I was done, I needed

1258
01:04:42,560 --> 01:04:45,120
Speaker 3: to like go on, you know, ride my bike and

1259
01:04:45,200 --> 01:04:48,360
Speaker 3: like dance and like I needed to do other forms

1260
01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:51,920
Speaker 3: of exercise and just express myself differently. You don't have

1261
01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:53,280
Speaker 3: to do yoga if you don't want.

1262
01:04:53,120 --> 01:04:56,080
Speaker 2: To, yeah, and if you want to, great, just do

1263
01:04:56,200 --> 01:05:02,520
Speaker 2: it in moderation and without handing control over to somebody else. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1264
01:05:02,560 --> 01:05:06,800
Speaker 2: And the point about not about ancient. It's just I

1265
01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:09,560
Speaker 2: do feel like we can imbue this like sort of mysterious,

1266
01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:14,160
Speaker 2: unknowable magical quality to something if it's old when we

1267
01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:17,440
Speaker 2: use words like ancient, So making that distinction is really important.

1268
01:05:17,640 --> 01:05:19,720
Speaker 2: And even if they are ancient, that doesn't mean that

1269
01:05:19,760 --> 01:05:22,640
Speaker 2: they're good and correct and right for everyone or magical,

1270
01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:24,880
Speaker 2: you know, like it does mean that's old.

1271
01:05:26,080 --> 01:05:27,760
Speaker 3: And do you think that's part of and also the

1272
01:05:27,760 --> 01:05:29,800
Speaker 3: part that we think of it as coming from India

1273
01:05:29,880 --> 01:05:31,400
Speaker 3: or the East. Do you think that's part of the

1274
01:05:31,440 --> 01:05:34,360
Speaker 3: reason that we talk just a little bit less about

1275
01:05:34,880 --> 01:05:37,919
Speaker 3: these kinds of cults maybe than the ones that are

1276
01:05:37,960 --> 01:05:38,720
Speaker 3: more homegrown.

1277
01:05:39,320 --> 01:05:43,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, well yeah, I mean I feel like people still

1278
01:05:43,520 --> 01:05:45,760
Speaker 2: I don't know. I feel like culturally yoga is still

1279
01:05:45,880 --> 01:05:49,280
Speaker 2: very much like we do kind of ascribe some magical

1280
01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:52,560
Speaker 2: qualities to it a little bit, and that is connected

1281
01:05:52,600 --> 01:05:55,120
Speaker 2: to this idea of this ancient Indian culture that we

1282
01:05:55,240 --> 01:05:58,919
Speaker 2: just don't understand. I feel like more so like there

1283
01:05:59,240 --> 01:06:01,560
Speaker 2: hasn't been a ton of acknowledgement I feel of the

1284
01:06:01,600 --> 01:06:05,440
Speaker 2: guru student culture. I mean, obviously some of our past

1285
01:06:05,480 --> 01:06:08,960
Speaker 2: guests have, but in the larger culture, yeah, it is

1286
01:06:09,080 --> 01:06:11,520
Speaker 2: really not viewed that way. It's viewed as like, oh,

1287
01:06:11,560 --> 01:06:15,040
Speaker 2: that's just another culture that's that's different from ours, and

1288
01:06:15,080 --> 01:06:17,760
Speaker 2: that can be true, but also that those relationships can

1289
01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:18,560
Speaker 2: become very abusive.

1290
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:19,080
Speaker 1: Obviously.

1291
01:06:19,280 --> 01:06:20,680
Speaker 3: Now I was going to say, I'm seeing some of

1292
01:06:20,840 --> 01:06:23,240
Speaker 3: some people come out and talk about that more like

1293
01:06:23,320 --> 01:06:26,840
Speaker 3: even just admitting that it's not ancient, it's quite controversial.

1294
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:29,760
Speaker 3: So you are seeing people speak about that.

1295
01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:33,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, Well, thank you for speaking about it and

1296
01:06:33,400 --> 01:06:37,160
Speaker 2: for sharing your story. And I mean, it's incredible that

1297
01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:39,360
Speaker 2: you're that you're sharing it and talking about it. I

1298
01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:42,640
Speaker 2: do think you have a very unique You've had a

1299
01:06:42,720 --> 01:06:48,320
Speaker 2: very uniquely yeah. So, and I think it will be

1300
01:06:48,480 --> 01:06:50,360
Speaker 2: helpful to a lot of people who are maybe in

1301
01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:53,320
Speaker 2: a similar situation or teetering on a similar situation, or

1302
01:06:53,400 --> 01:06:56,240
Speaker 2: have been in one and didn't necessarily have this language

1303
01:06:56,280 --> 01:06:58,720
Speaker 2: for it because it's not what we traditionally think of

1304
01:06:58,760 --> 01:06:59,400
Speaker 2: as a culture.

1305
01:06:59,480 --> 01:07:04,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, is unbelievable. We totally recommend that everybody get the

1306
01:07:04,800 --> 01:07:08,200
Speaker 1: secret practice eighteen years on the Dark Side of Yoga,

1307
01:07:08,800 --> 01:07:11,160
Speaker 1: and we just thank you so much for being with

1308
01:07:11,240 --> 01:07:11,840
Speaker 1: us today.

1309
01:07:12,160 --> 01:07:15,760
Speaker 3: Thank you both, thank you for having me with you.

1310
01:07:16,080 --> 01:07:19,240
Speaker 1: That is honestly one of the wildest stories I've ever heard.

1311
01:07:19,280 --> 01:07:21,520
Speaker 1: I said it in part one. I could get sucked

1312
01:07:21,560 --> 01:07:24,640
Speaker 1: into this quote unquote call today.

1313
01:07:24,520 --> 01:07:28,520
Speaker 4: You would go to India in pursuit of a spiritual

1314
01:07:29,120 --> 01:07:32,720
Speaker 4: leader and would just cancel your flight home.

1315
01:07:32,680 --> 01:07:37,680
Speaker 1: One hundred thousand million billion percon. Wow, this book is

1316
01:07:37,720 --> 01:07:40,600
Speaker 1: a must read. I read it in a night. I

1317
01:07:40,720 --> 01:07:43,560
Speaker 1: was completely fascinated. It's called The Secret Practice, The Dark

1318
01:07:43,600 --> 01:07:47,040
Speaker 1: Side of Yoga, and it is Oh, it is good.

1319
01:07:47,240 --> 01:07:52,160
Speaker 1: I guess my takeaway from this episode is that narcissists

1320
01:07:52,440 --> 01:07:55,440
Speaker 1: must just fall in one because yes, they will go

1321
01:07:55,480 --> 01:07:59,400
Speaker 1: to all lengths to get what they want from you. Yeah,

1322
01:07:59,640 --> 01:08:04,800
Speaker 1: and if that involves baking multiple personality disorder and dragging

1323
01:08:04,840 --> 01:08:09,520
Speaker 1: you across the world on a journey of pain and suffering,

1324
01:08:10,120 --> 01:08:13,640
Speaker 1: that is just fine with them. So keep your eyes

1325
01:08:13,680 --> 01:08:14,760
Speaker 1: out people. Yeah.

1326
01:08:14,840 --> 01:08:17,360
Speaker 4: It was nice to hear the moment towards the end

1327
01:08:17,560 --> 01:08:21,719
Speaker 4: of the interview, just her realization of what the world

1328
01:08:22,040 --> 01:08:26,000
Speaker 4: outside of her was like and the gradual establishment of boundaries,

1329
01:08:26,080 --> 01:08:29,720
Speaker 4: which I think is empowering and liberating and it can

1330
01:08:29,760 --> 01:08:33,559
Speaker 4: be a very gradual process, but it's just very meaningful,

1331
01:08:33,560 --> 01:08:34,640
Speaker 4: and it was nice to hear at the end of

1332
01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:35,120
Speaker 4: the story.

1333
01:08:35,280 --> 01:08:37,840
Speaker 1: I agree. Well, thank you so much. For listening to

1334
01:08:37,920 --> 01:08:40,800
Speaker 1: another week of trust Me. We can't wait to see

1335
01:08:40,800 --> 01:08:44,160
Speaker 1: you again next week, and as always, remember to follow

1336
01:08:44,200 --> 01:08:51,120
Speaker 1: your gut, watch out for our flax, and never ever trusting. Bye.

1337
01:08:52,960 --> 01:08:55,640
Speaker 2: Trust Me as produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and

1338
01:08:55,680 --> 01:08:57,080
Speaker 2: Steve Delemator.

1339
01:08:56,640 --> 01:08:58,599
Speaker 1: With special thanks to Stacy Para.

1340
01:08:58,520 --> 01:09:00,920
Speaker 2: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1341
01:09:01,160 --> 01:09:04,040
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1342
01:09:04,200 --> 01:09:08,000
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cultpod, or on TikTok at trust

1343
01:09:08,000 --> 01:09:09,280
Speaker 1: Me Cult Podcast.

1344
01:09:09,479 --> 01:09:12,840
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1345
01:09:12,560 --> 01:09:16,200
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Bebraham

1346
01:09:16,280 --> 01:09:17,320
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

1347
01:09:17,479 --> 01:09:19,800
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.