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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: We were talking earlier about the public information officer. How

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Speaker 2: does he explain his about face on the stand if

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Speaker 2: he does, you know, issuing the famous flying disc press release,

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Speaker 2: then retracting it hours later and calling it a weather balloon.

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Speaker 2: Did the attorney challenge him on the stand about that

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Speaker 2: he does?

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Speaker 3: But and again how in real life, as the kids say,

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Speaker 3: you know, contended.

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Speaker 4: Following orders.

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Speaker 3: And so that's how he essentially explained it away. In

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Speaker 3: my book, it was, Hey, you know, I was told this,

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Speaker 3: I issued the press release.

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Speaker 4: I was told that I issued the new press release.

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Speaker 4: And then the lawyers would.

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Speaker 3: Get into kind of ancillary things as far as well,

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Speaker 3: how long you've been issuing these press releases. So you know,

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Speaker 3: if you're the skeptics attorney, have you ever issued attraction before?

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Speaker 3: And you know they're going to find something right that

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Speaker 3: because people make mistakes, and then they're going to hang

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Speaker 3: your hat on. So you know, it's not unheard of

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Speaker 3: somebody makes a mistake. And so that's how how it

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Speaker 3: would go about it. And that leads me back to

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Speaker 3: the best the best witness for the skeptics My opinion

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Speaker 3: is Ramie himself, who really did kind of the smart thing.

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Speaker 3: It would be nice if people did in this day

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Speaker 3: and age. I think when Rami came out and essentially said, yeah,

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Speaker 3: we made a mistake, moving on, you know, he really

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Speaker 3: didn't give it a.

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Speaker 4: Whole heck of a lot of time and day.

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Speaker 3: So, you know, and it's telling Ramie like kind of

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Speaker 3: talked to he's sort of the opposite of Brazzle, right, Rami,

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Speaker 3: he's a general, he's a smart guy. He went on

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Speaker 3: what took over the new branch of the Air Force.

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Speaker 3: He's going to come across as very credible. So on

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Speaker 3: the skeptic side for a guy like Rami, Yep, we

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Speaker 3: made a mistake.

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Speaker 4: It's okay, compelling. What's the jury going to do with that? Right? Right?

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Speaker 2: Right? And I no doubt the skeptics. Lawyer also introduced

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Speaker 2: Project Mogul, this classified balloon program to detect Soviet nuclear tests.

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Speaker 2: How do they how do they use that to explain

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Speaker 2: away the debris?

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Speaker 4: Well, you know, the.

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Speaker 3: Old story goes they pop up with, you know, Project Mogul,

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Speaker 3: But you know that was after a couple of you know,

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Speaker 3: goes to saying there was nothing there and that's the

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Speaker 3: nice thing that you know about. You know, if you

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Speaker 3: were playing to flawyer on this. I tell my clients

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Speaker 3: this all the time. I'm no smarter than you are,

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Speaker 3: but this is my job, and if you're going to

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Speaker 3: lie to me, I'm going to catch you because the

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Speaker 3: more you talk, the more backstory you build.

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Speaker 4: Just the more opportunity there is for it. So you know,

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Speaker 4: we've got what.

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Speaker 3: From forty seven to ninety three when the government came

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Speaker 3: out with you know, their.

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Speaker 4: Operation Project Closed or whatever the.

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Speaker 3: Heck name they gave to it. You know, their version

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Speaker 3: of events changed four or five times along the way.

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Speaker 4: So back to kind of your point that you had

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Speaker 4: brought up earlier, Well, were you lie in then or then?

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Speaker 4: Or then or then? Right? And that is really damning

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Speaker 4: in front of the jury.

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Speaker 2: Most Coast listeners will be very familiar with Major Jesse

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Speaker 2: Marcel and his let's call it testimony has become legendary.

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Speaker 2: How just walk us through a little bit of his testimony,

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Speaker 2: how he describes the debris and what convinced him it

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Speaker 2: wasn't man made?

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Speaker 4: MH.

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Speaker 3: Well, as you mentioned his story, boy, I bet most

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Speaker 3: of your listeners could kind of write his story but

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Speaker 3: you know on the stand, it's the it was you

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Speaker 3: would go through and first to establish his credentials, you know,

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Speaker 3: and he's seen some stuff, he's done some stuff, and

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Speaker 3: now he'd be on the.

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Speaker 4: Stand, and that's a great question. Who's going to call him?

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Speaker 3: I called him as a believer witness.

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Speaker 4: But you get him on the stand, you lay the

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Speaker 4: foundation that you know, he's no chump, he's seen, he's.

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Speaker 3: Been around, and what did you find? And then you know,

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Speaker 3: and what did it look like? So when you're when

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Speaker 3: they're your own witness, it's direct, direct exam and so

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Speaker 3: it has to be these open ended questions.

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Speaker 4: So it's you know, what did you see? Well, you know,

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Speaker 4: I saw this debris? What did it look like?

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Speaker 3: You know in the painstaking the what did.

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Speaker 4: You try to bend it?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I did? What happened?

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Speaker 3: And you'd walk him through, you know, how would kind

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Speaker 3: of go back, couldn't be bent, couldn't be ripped, and

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Speaker 3: you go through sort of those sorts of angles, and

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Speaker 3: then I would anytime you have a bad fact, it

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Speaker 3: doesn't matter what side you're on. So it makes it

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Speaker 3: a little easier and you're the plaintiff if you have

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Speaker 3: a bad fact. You have to get out in front

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Speaker 3: of it. You have to be the one that brings

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Speaker 3: it up, because you can bring it up and make

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Speaker 3: it no big deal and just sort of dismiss it.

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Speaker 3: If you let the other side bring it up, they're

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Speaker 3: gonna kill you.

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Speaker 2: What's the bad fact? What's the bad fact with Jesse Marcel?

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Speaker 4: Well, okay, the bad fact is this.

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Speaker 5: Everyone hangs their hat, and Jesse hangs his hat on

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Speaker 5: the fact that well, yeah, in the famous photos right

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Speaker 5: where I'm holding the material and I'm looking up and

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Speaker 5: I'm looking over a brainy and that wasn't the same stuff.

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Speaker 4: But I was doing it because I was following orders.

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Speaker 3: Okay, right, well, well, okay, Well one of the bad

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Speaker 3: facts is well, okay, you're, you know, a soldier rule follower.

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Speaker 4: But she took the stuff home.

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Speaker 3: And you showed it to your family, right, and you

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Speaker 3: can you can kind of you can undercut with that,

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Speaker 3: because that's exactly what the defense would do. You know,

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Speaker 3: they'd really build him up to be, you know, a

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Speaker 3: soldier of the year and then start, you know, picking

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Speaker 3: away with the procedure that he didn't follow. So that's

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Speaker 3: a relatively bad fact, but it's a very interesting bad

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Speaker 3: fact because by taking the material home, he.

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Speaker 4: Essentially created additional witnesses to the material, right, Jesse Junior.

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Speaker 3: Right, So it's you know, if he was my client,

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Speaker 3: I'd be pretty upset that he now got to deal

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Speaker 3: with this. But at the same time, I'd say, well,

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Speaker 3: the benefit of having these other witnesses probably outweighs the

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Speaker 3: fact that you maybe shouldn't.

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Speaker 2: Have done that, you know, right, right, Glen Dennis, the mortician, testifying,

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Speaker 2: of course the base ordered small coffins, child sized coffins

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Speaker 2: and was asked about body preservation. How did the skeptics

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Speaker 2: lawyer handle that explosive claim in your courtroom?

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Speaker 4: Well, he actually would handle it great. And I want

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Speaker 4: to preface all of this as you know, as your

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Speaker 4: listeners know.

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Speaker 3: You know, in this seventy year long game of telephone

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Speaker 3: right that has been going on since Roswell, it can

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Speaker 3: be very tough to know exactly what was said at

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Speaker 3: what time and what you know, what actually happened.

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Speaker 4: What obviously we don't know what actually happened.

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Speaker 3: But to deal with Glenn Dennis, everyone and their brother.

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Speaker 3: Prior to me writing this book, I always heard the

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Speaker 3: same story. Glenn Dennis is asked if he had these

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Speaker 3: little coffins, you know, hermetically sealed, you know, Yes, I do,

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Speaker 3: and he took them out to the base. Well, you

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Speaker 3: start digging into that, and I found two interviews with

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Speaker 3: Glenn Dennis in which he said, Yep, they called for

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Speaker 3: the coffins, which still admittedly is kind of weird. But

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Speaker 3: I didn't have them. I told them I could get them,

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Speaker 3: but it would be a day or two, okay. But

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Speaker 3: then Glenn Dennis decides of his own volition, even though

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Speaker 3: he didn't have these little coffins, he's going to go

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Speaker 3: out to the base anyway, and this is where he.

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Speaker 4: Encounters the mysterious nurse. So kind of save that for,

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Speaker 4: you know, down the road here.

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Speaker 3: But yes, Glen Dennis, if one of the lawyers hadn't

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Speaker 3: done their homework and he wants to, you know, go

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Speaker 3: up with you know, and I had these little coffins

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Speaker 3: and I went out there.

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Speaker 4: Well, I have interviews with.

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Speaker 3: Glen Dennis that you know, the opposite lawyer.

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Speaker 4: Is going to tear them up. You know again, what

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Speaker 4: was it was it? You had them and you went,

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Speaker 4: and you didn't have them and you went.

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Speaker 3: It seems like and that's a big fact that you

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Speaker 3: would expect somebody to be clear on from the first minute, right.

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Speaker 2: Right, precisely, did you call Sergeant Melvin Brown to the stand?

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Speaker 2: Who this is the gentleman who allegedly saw the alien bodies?

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Speaker 4: Yes?

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Speaker 3: I did call Melvin Brown to the stand, and his

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Speaker 3: story when my research went a lot like Glen Dennis's, Yep,

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Speaker 3: I saw these bodies.

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Speaker 4: Then later it was well.

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Speaker 3: I kind of saw through the opaque sides of you know,

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Speaker 3: the makeshift infirmary something that could have been bodies. So again,

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Speaker 3: and as I said earlier, that's exactly why I called

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Speaker 3: these guys as witnesses. They had great testimony, but they

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Speaker 3: can be relatively easily impeached. So are they believable or not?

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Speaker 3: You tell me, Jerry, Yeah, So Melvin Brown, Yeah, you

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Speaker 3: don't hear his name, you know, as regularly as you

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Speaker 3: hear the other ones. But yeah, I thought he was

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Speaker 3: a pretty interesting enough he made the cut from my book.

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Speaker 2: Right, tell me about well the believers also called experts

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Speaker 2: like doctor Lincoln Lapaz and doctor Robert Starbacker. What did

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Speaker 2: their scientific and insider testimony add to the case.

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Speaker 4: Well, you have to, you know, every trial has to

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Speaker 4: have experts.

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Speaker 3: So I like the way this is going on, which

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Speaker 3: I can interestper some some real life law here. So

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Speaker 3: a common objection that people might hear if they're watching

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Speaker 3: a movie or what is objection?

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Speaker 4: It's foundation. Okay, So what that would mean is, like

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Speaker 4: I do a lot of kind of medical malpractice and

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Speaker 4: work like that.

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Speaker 3: You and I, even though I'm the lawyer and say

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Speaker 3: you're the client, we can't go into court and talk

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Speaker 3: about medical procedures. We can't go in and talk about

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Speaker 3: accident reconstructions things like that. You have to have an expert,

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Speaker 3: somebody that has been determined they have quote foundation to

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Speaker 3: give an opinion.

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Speaker 4: It's opinion testimony is what it is. And you have

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Speaker 4: to be an expert to give opinion testimony.

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Speaker 3: So that's why we work the experts into the trial

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Speaker 3: and into the book. And so Lincoln la Pause going in,

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Speaker 3: I mean, he's kind of known for me and you know,

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Speaker 3: kind of a smart skeptic. He's pretty well respect and

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Speaker 3: another reason I chose him. He's well respected, but he's

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Speaker 3: kind of anti Roswell.

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Speaker 4: So again good witness to use on that whole thing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Lapause came out and he I think his initial

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Speaker 3: story was that they were.

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Speaker 4: He believed there were satellites.

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Speaker 3: But so again you put you put the expert in there,

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Speaker 3: just adds weight, it adds credibility, and they decide what

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Speaker 3: they want to do.

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Speaker 4: And you know the same thing with Sarbacher. And I'm

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Speaker 4: flipping a page here in my book.

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Speaker 3: There's a picture I wanted to look at, but again

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Speaker 3: it was hard. I don't have you know, there really

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Speaker 3: isn't an expert so to speak for the believers, because

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Speaker 3: of course that you know that that's another challenge in

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Speaker 3: a case like this. The defendants essentially would be the

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Speaker 3: United States government. They've got, you know, and that's how

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Speaker 3: it often is the the little guy going up against

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Speaker 3: the big guy. And the big guys, you know, has

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Speaker 3: the money, and so they bring in these you know,

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Speaker 3: quote unquote experts, who a lot of them are just

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Speaker 3: you know, I can tell you what the reports are

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Speaker 3: going to say before I even see him.

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Speaker 4: We know, we all know the whole story about it.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, Starbacker, he was you know, smart, brilliant, a

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Speaker 3: couple he was a physicist, you know, a couple of degrees,

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Speaker 3: you know, the PhDs. I think he was a Harvard

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Speaker 3: grand So really smart guy, and you know he came out.

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Speaker 3: It was interesting Starbacker really started he looked at Roswell

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Speaker 3: in the fifties.

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Speaker 4: But then he kind of got back and got popular

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Speaker 4: with it back in the eighties. And he says that,

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Speaker 4: you know, he was another one saying that this wasn't

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Speaker 4: the case.

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Speaker 6: So that the quote experts tend to line up, but

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Speaker 6: they tend to be more very very science driven, you

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Speaker 6: know type of folks, and folks like that are just

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Speaker 6: always going to be hard to get.

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Speaker 4: Off the dime, right right right.

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Speaker 2: I think you also called or one of the lawyers

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Speaker 2: in this courtroom drama called Philip Class, the famous UFO

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Speaker 2: de Bunker, to testify. How did he make his case

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Speaker 2: to the jury?

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Speaker 3: Oh? Justin yeah, so so Class. Yeah, he's another one,

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Speaker 3: that interesting guy. And I am and I apologize Richard

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Speaker 3: into your listeners.

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Speaker 4: I'm flipping pages. That's all right.

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Speaker 2: I didn't want to put you on the spot there,

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Speaker 2: but it's it's important, I think, you know, for people

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Speaker 2: to know that he's included among the witnesses. Yes, any

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Speaker 2: big surprises you encountered while weighing these witnesses side by

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Speaker 2: side in terms of who came off more credible who didn't.

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Speaker 3: Uh yeah, well yes, and I kind of felt prey

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Speaker 3: to this, you know, as we do. So I had

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Speaker 3: put together my witness list and I was interested kind

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Speaker 3: of you know, as I'm going through it, kind of.

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Speaker 4: Well, who am I? Who am I going to like?

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Speaker 4: Who am I going to think is really going to

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Speaker 4: carry the day?

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Speaker 7: And Brazil, who we've talked about, he wasn't even really

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Speaker 7: on my radar, is you know he brasel had to

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Speaker 7: be a witness, but he was just going to kickstart

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Speaker 7: the narrative.

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Speaker 3: He wasn't going to carry the day as far as

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Speaker 3: I was concerned.

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Speaker 4: So, yes, I was really surprised about that.

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Speaker 3: How strongly I came to believe that he was the guy.

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Speaker 4: I found that interesting. You know, one thing that I.

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Speaker 3: Kind of uncovered, and this is one hundred percent on point,

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Speaker 3: but not necessarily in my book, but kind of an

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Speaker 3: angle I started taking was you know that I think

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Speaker 3: one of the widely accepted that stories is after the

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Speaker 3: fact breed and the bodies, everything was sent to Fort

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Speaker 3: Worth and then from fort Worth it was sent to

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Speaker 3: right pat It's what, you know, a story, A lot

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Speaker 3: of this kind of been here to well, I started

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Speaker 3: looking at it you know, from the extraterrestrial angle. So

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Speaker 3: if there were bodies, if we are to believe that,

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Speaker 3: I can understand having craft sent to Right Pat. But

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Speaker 3: the more I thought about it, and then I started

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Speaker 3: doing some digging, Right Pat didn't even have a full

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Speaker 3: hospital until like nineteen fifty seven. So if you have

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Speaker 3: extraterrestrial bodies, why in the world would you send them

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Speaker 3: to Right Pat. Wouldn't you send them to Walter Reed

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Speaker 3: Army Medical Hospital.

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Speaker 4: Wouldn't you send him to the presidio?

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Speaker 3: And I never found much research beyond yep, everything went,

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Speaker 3: everything went off to Right Pat.

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Speaker 4: But it was just a this angle I had never

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Speaker 4: heard before.

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Speaker 3: I hadn't really heard it dressed, and I just kind

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Speaker 3: of came across it, you know.

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Speaker 4: Partner parcel by Research.

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