Speaker 1: You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: I'm Hillary Clinton and this is You and Me Both,
Speaker 1: where I get to talk to people whose perspective I
Speaker 1: really want to hear from Right now today, that person
Speaker 1: is Gretchen Whitmer, the governor of Michigan. Gretchen Whitmer is
Speaker 1: someone whose career I have followed with great interest in admiration.
Speaker 1: She's a lifelong Michigander. She served in the Michigan State
Speaker 1: House was the state Senate minority leader for almost a decade.
Speaker 1: She is the second woman to serve as governor of
Speaker 1: Michigan and one of just nine women governors in the US.
Speaker 1: Just last night, on the heels of another record breaking
Speaker 1: week for coronavirus cases in Michigan, Governor Whitmer announced new
Speaker 1: restrictions to contain the virus, including stopping in person classes
Speaker 1: at high schools and colleges. As she rightly pointed out,
Speaker 1: the situation has never been dire. We are at the
Speaker 1: precipice and we need to take some action. This is
Speaker 1: not the first time she's made headlines for her leadership
Speaker 1: and taking strong, effective measures during this pandemic. People all
Speaker 1: over the world followed the story of the white supremacists
Speaker 1: and militia groups that plotted to kidnap and kill her
Speaker 1: just last month. I think it's safe to say that
Speaker 1: Michigan and Governor Whitmer are at the epicenter of some
Speaker 1: of the biggest issues affecting our country right now. I'm
Speaker 1: so glad she could join us in the midst of
Speaker 1: all of her other responsibilities for this very timely conversation.
Speaker 1: Hello Gretchen, Hi there, How are you, Madam Secretary? Oh
Speaker 1: my gosh. All the better for seeing you and for
Speaker 1: you making time to talk with me today. Are you
Speaker 1: kidding me? You're one of my heroes. I'm so glad
Speaker 1: to be with you. Well, I I really was so
Speaker 1: looking forward to talking with you. But you should also
Speaker 1: know that on my podcast, we ask listeners to recommend
Speaker 1: people that they would like to hear me talk with,
Speaker 1: and your name was by far at the top of
Speaker 1: the list. So it's not only a great personal pleasure
Speaker 1: and really honor to talk to you, but it's something
Speaker 1: that our listeners have been holding out for, and I
Speaker 1: am really looking to give you a chance to talk
Speaker 1: about some of what you've gone through and have done,
Speaker 1: because you know, speaking as someone who has been in
Speaker 1: the political firestorm and been in leadership positions and studied
Speaker 1: others who have been leaders. I'm incredibly impressed at your thoughtfulness,
Speaker 1: your courage, your commitment to leading and serving the people
Speaker 1: of Michigan. You really are a servant leader, governor, and
Speaker 1: that is about the highest company and I can come
Speaker 1: up with. As we're talking, it's Monday, November sixteenth. Last
Speaker 1: night you held a live briefing and announced that Michigan
Speaker 1: was again having to put in place new restrictions because
Speaker 1: of the massive surge in COVID cases. What are you
Speaker 1: seeing in the data and the science that led you
Speaker 1: to feel compelled to take this step. Well, one of
Speaker 1: the things that I think as a nation we're really
Speaker 1: struggling with is the vacuum of leadership in Washington, d c.
Speaker 1: And so it's really fallen to the governors to come
Speaker 1: up with strategies as individual states. And in the early
Speaker 1: days that meant we were competing with one another to
Speaker 1: get nine masks for our nurses and our doctors. We
Speaker 1: were overwhelmed. We're getting inconsistent, inaccurate information from the White House,
Speaker 1: where we had to correct it. We had to take
Speaker 1: pains to come up with our own strate of Gee's
Speaker 1: and in the midst of all that, I will say,
Speaker 1: I'm grateful that I've got relationships with my fellow governors,
Speaker 1: because there are many people who understand all the different
Speaker 1: pressures that we are confronting as we make these these
Speaker 1: hard decisions. You know, we were hit really hard early
Speaker 1: on in Michigan. Detroit was heating up like New Orleans,
Speaker 1: New York City, Chicago, and being so early on it
Speaker 1: was before we knew that there was going to be
Speaker 1: no national stockpile to help save the day or a
Speaker 1: national strategy, and so we were on our own. We
Speaker 1: took aggressive action. I listened to epidemiologists and public health
Speaker 1: experts from Michigan, but also nationally recognized experts, and we've
Speaker 1: really crushed oar we say, thousands of lives. We mitigated
Speaker 1: the economic pain that people were, you know, confronting, and
Speaker 1: that was being imposed on our businesses. But now here
Speaker 1: we are in the fall, there still isn't a national strategy.
Speaker 1: By the way, nine months later, and our COVID cases
Speaker 1: are climbing exponentially. Part of that is things like other
Speaker 1: states not taken this seriously, like South Dakota, where they
Speaker 1: had their big Sturgis motorcycle rally that has just brought
Speaker 1: COVID into all sorts of Midwest states. Part of it
Speaker 1: is rallies in swing states like Michigan, where the Trump
Speaker 1: campaign continued to come and not wear masks and packed people.
Speaker 1: And part of it is the fall. You grew up
Speaker 1: in the Midwest. Our temperatures are plummeting and we're all
Speaker 1: going inside. All of these things converging means we've got
Speaker 1: COVID spreading like wildfire all across the Midwest, and that's
Speaker 1: why we have to take action. Is especially important because
Speaker 1: we're in the midst of hopefully transition that ultimately will
Speaker 1: become a real transition. But there still isn't that leadership
Speaker 1: in Washington, d C. Your initial stay at home order
Speaker 1: back in March led to a political standoff with Republican
Speaker 1: legislators and your state Supreme Court. And on top of that,
Speaker 1: there were white supremacists and militia groups that marched on
Speaker 1: your capital, threatened you and others at that time, and
Speaker 1: were cheered on by the President. I can't imagine what
Speaker 1: it felt like that first time you saw these white
Speaker 1: supremacists and militia members converging on your capital. How did
Speaker 1: how did you respond to that? Governor? Yeah, so I
Speaker 1: was over in the Romney building. So that's named for
Speaker 1: Mitt Romney's father, right, who was governor of Michigan. Exactly,
Speaker 1: a Republican of you know, distinction and a kind which
Speaker 1: doesn't seem to exist much anymore. It's true. I I
Speaker 1: always tell people I'm from a mixed household. My dad
Speaker 1: was a Republican, but he was a Romney Miliican Republican,
Speaker 1: which means he's a Democrat now. But anyway, Um, I
Speaker 1: was there in the office building and I remember looking
Speaker 1: out and it was surprising because there were Confederate flags,
Speaker 1: which that's not the usual thing at the capital in Michigan.
Speaker 1: We're a Union state, right, I mean, we're proud of
Speaker 1: the role that we played in the Civil War. We
Speaker 1: had Nazi symbolism. There were dolls with dark hair hanging
Speaker 1: from nooses that were depicting me hanging you in effigy,
Speaker 1: right exactly. That's happened to me, by the way, So
Speaker 1: I can I can relate sadly to what you went through.
Speaker 1: I know you can, I mean, And it culminated right
Speaker 1: in just a few weeks ago, people channing to lock
Speaker 1: her up about me. So I know, I know you
Speaker 1: know this better than anybody, but it was really stunning
Speaker 1: to see. We were in the midst of the early
Speaker 1: days of this global pandemic. It was ravaging our state.
Speaker 1: People were dying, our hospitals were filled, we were running
Speaker 1: out of ppe, and these groups were coming to other
Speaker 1: and it was like a Trump rally, it really was.
Speaker 1: There's literally a Trump parade flow that was there, and
Speaker 1: it was just really surprising because this virus is doesn't
Speaker 1: care what your politics are, it doesn't care who you
Speaker 1: voted for, where you live. Is a threat to all
Speaker 1: of us. And so when we saw that, and then
Speaker 1: people showing up with their automatic rifles in the capital,
Speaker 1: and they've been many times out on our front lawn
Speaker 1: at the residents where my teenagers, I had to explain
Speaker 1: why I'm getting death threats and what's happening. But every
Speaker 1: single time the President has mentioned me, has tweeted about me,
Speaker 1: we see more vitriol, more death threats. It's contributing to
Speaker 1: this really dangerous moment that culminated in kidnapping and murder plot.
Speaker 1: And just even last night when I made the statement
Speaker 1: about we have to tighten some things up to keep
Speaker 1: people safe. Scott Atlas tweeted at michigander should rise up.
Speaker 1: I mean it's still continuing even after this election. Well,
Speaker 1: Scott Atlas, for our listeners who don't know, is the
Speaker 1: neurologist from California who is one of the very few doctors,
Speaker 1: let alone, he's not an epidemiologist or an infectious disease
Speaker 1: specialist who promotes this idea of herd immunity. Let you know,
Speaker 1: literally millions die and Trump has uh you know, listened
Speaker 1: to him and moved him literally into the White House
Speaker 1: where he has issued absolutely false medical assessments, and as
Speaker 1: you point out, last night, after you made your announcement,
Speaker 1: urged people in Michigan to rise up protests, protect freedom,
Speaker 1: all of these slogans that we've come to hear. Ironically,
Speaker 1: last night at my house there was a big crowd
Speaker 1: of Trump supporters yelling and screaming, using bullhorns to you know,
Speaker 1: insult me in all kinds of exist misogynistic ways. Because
Speaker 1: there's no getting away from the fact that of all
Speaker 1: the governors that took very quick and restrictive action, you
Speaker 1: were the one that Trump went after you were the
Speaker 1: one that he called that lady and tried to diminish
Speaker 1: and demean. And as you just said, there were people who,
Speaker 1: let's be very blunt here, have been influenced by Trump
Speaker 1: and his form of destructive and dangerous leadership, who actually
Speaker 1: hatched a plot to kidnap and kill you. Now many
Speaker 1: of us followed the story of this plot in the news,
Speaker 1: But how did you learn about it. What was the
Speaker 1: experience you had when you were told about this plot
Speaker 1: and what happened from your perspective, I think I infuriated
Speaker 1: Donald Trump early on when I acknowledged that there was
Speaker 1: no national strategy to combat COVID nineteen. I think I
Speaker 1: said that back in March, right, speaking truth to power,
Speaker 1: And here we are nine months later, and they'd even
Speaker 1: give it up on having a strategy. They don't even
Speaker 1: try anymore, right, I mean, they don't even like to
Speaker 1: talk about COVID nineteen, much less work together to keep
Speaker 1: people safe. And so from that day forward, the online vitriol,
Speaker 1: the threats had started in earnest, but as this plot
Speaker 1: got more pronounced, as it had become, they've taken steps
Speaker 1: to actually see it out. The State Police briefed me
Speaker 1: on what was happening, maybe a few weeks before the
Speaker 1: world found out about it, and I had the opportunity
Speaker 1: to sit down with my family and talk a little
Speaker 1: bit about it, and to have some pretty hard conversations
Speaker 1: with my teenage daughters because I didn't want them to
Speaker 1: come across it or to see it on social media
Speaker 1: and to be worried. I wanted them to know, we
Speaker 1: know this is happening, We're safe, We're okay. But I'll
Speaker 1: be honest with you, I don't know if I've processed
Speaker 1: it yet. I haven't read all of the affidavits. When
Speaker 1: people say I can't believe they did this, for that,
Speaker 1: I generally I am not sure what they're talking about
Speaker 1: because I cannot be steeped in it. I have to
Speaker 1: conserve all of my energy to focus on the work
Speaker 1: at hand, which is about saving lives in the middle
Speaker 1: of this pandemic, and that's really what my mindset has
Speaker 1: been throughout this experience. We'll be right back. I mean,
Speaker 1: sometimes you just have to shut out the outside world
Speaker 1: when you have a real crisis that you're facing, as
Speaker 1: you have now for nine months. You can't get distracted.
Speaker 1: Those of us who have followed you. Admire you. I
Speaker 1: think did enough worrying for all you and your colleagues
Speaker 1: while you could keep compartmentalizing and getting on with your job.
Speaker 1: But you know, it raises such terrible, serious questions about
Speaker 1: where we are as a country, and if we look
Speaker 1: at our national picture right now, everybody who is willing
Speaker 1: to to be honest and forthright knows Joe Biden won
Speaker 1: this election. He is the president elect. Trump is refusing
Speaker 1: to concede, and no surprise here, he has continued to
Speaker 1: show a total lack of leadership while COVID numbers are
Speaker 1: rising so dramatically. And I think about some of the
Speaker 1: great leaders you've had in Michigan. John Dingle was a
Speaker 1: particular favorite of mine, of course, I'm a close friend
Speaker 1: of his wonderful wife, now Congresswoman Debbie Dingle. And he
Speaker 1: said something that I have gone back to over and over.
Speaker 1: He said, in democratic government, elected officials do not have power.
Speaker 1: They hold power in trust for the people who elected them.
Speaker 1: That's exactly what you're doing. As such, a contrast with
Speaker 1: Donald Trump, what does power mean to you, especially at
Speaker 1: this moment? Well, a wonderful question. I'm not sure I
Speaker 1: have a wonderful answer. I'll just say that in the
Speaker 1: midst of all of this, I think crisis reveals people's
Speaker 1: character and what they're really all about. As I look
Speaker 1: across the country, there are some phenomenal governors on both
Speaker 1: sides of the aisle, stepping up, taking the mantle to
Speaker 1: keep the people of their states safe. None of us
Speaker 1: has the perfect response because the novel virus, and we
Speaker 1: have to be nimble, we have to learn as we go.
Speaker 1: We've got to be quick, we have to act quickly.
Speaker 1: But I think about governors who have count out to
Speaker 1: the Trump administration and the incredible cost that the people
Speaker 1: of those states have paid because of it. The economic costs, certainly,
Speaker 1: but the cost in terms of lives lost, in terms
Speaker 1: of lives forever impacted. And I never knew, I never
Speaker 1: contemplated all the challenges that we would have in But
Speaker 1: I think, my lucky stars that I've got a phenomenal
Speaker 1: team around me, that I was raised to be humble
Speaker 1: enough to know where my expertise ends, and to seek
Speaker 1: out the smartest people I can find in the midst
Speaker 1: of this crisis, to have relationships with my fellow governors
Speaker 1: that we can talk through and trouble, shoot and help
Speaker 1: one another navigate these times. So I think holding a
Speaker 1: position that's this powerful, especially when there's got to be
Speaker 1: so much executive action that takes place, is humbling and
Speaker 1: it is an incredible amount of responsibility. But I know
Speaker 1: that the actions we've taken have saved lives, and no
Speaker 1: matter what happens politically down the road, I will be
Speaker 1: able to be at peace with the work that we've
Speaker 1: done in this crisis. And I have colleagues who I
Speaker 1: don't know how they will be able to sleep at
Speaker 1: night a few years down the road, and I wouldn't
Speaker 1: trade places with them for anything. I agree with you.
Speaker 1: I think about people who not only at the highest
Speaker 1: levels of our national government, like the President, the Vice
Speaker 1: president and those who enable them, but people in your
Speaker 1: state legislature. You know, people you served with, Gretchen, You
Speaker 1: know people who you knew because you were in the
Speaker 1: House in Michigan, you were in the state Senate. I
Speaker 1: think about the people I served with who are still
Speaker 1: there in the U. S. Senate on the Republican side,
Speaker 1: who are so intimidated, so cowardly, so unwilling to say
Speaker 1: what I know they know better than, and to go
Speaker 1: along with Trump. What's that like for you? Dealing with
Speaker 1: people that you knew personally, you served with who just
Speaker 1: shut down because they're so afraid of whatever this Trump
Speaker 1: phenomenon is on the right and in the Republican Party
Speaker 1: right now. Well's it's so disappointing. I mean, it's more
Speaker 1: profound than that, but I'm struggling to find the right word.
Speaker 1: It is stunning to me that anyone would put themselves
Speaker 1: up for these important leadership positions and then sacrifice their
Speaker 1: best judgment to coddle someone else's ego or to preserve
Speaker 1: their own personal interests in a future election. I just
Speaker 1: I'm not built that way, and I don't think it's
Speaker 1: even a good political calculation. I mean, when you think
Speaker 1: about it, Biden Harris one, Michigan, you know that your
Speaker 1: approval rating is very high, commendably so, because your citizens
Speaker 1: are seeing what you're trying to do and approving of it.
Speaker 1: I just don't even get where the political advantage they
Speaker 1: think they are accruing comes from. Trump will be gone.
Speaker 1: I know he's not going to leave the scene. He
Speaker 1: has to keep feeding his ego and his malignant narcissism
Speaker 1: will require that. But all these others who have missed
Speaker 1: this leadership moment, who have sacrifice frankly, their reputations, their dignity.
Speaker 1: I don't see how it advantages them. Yeah, I think too.
Speaker 1: You know, one of the interesting things in this has
Speaker 1: been so many leaders who are frustrated because there are
Speaker 1: no easy solutions there. There is a political cost to
Speaker 1: every decision that is made because we are so polarized
Speaker 1: right now, there's such deep divisions. It really struck me
Speaker 1: as I watched the Circus. They did an episode and
Speaker 1: they focused on me, and they focused on Brian Kemp
Speaker 1: in Georgia, and he is getting protested, but he's getting
Speaker 1: protested because he's made decisions that have contributed to more
Speaker 1: loss of life. And so while I think of the
Speaker 1: protests here and certainly the threats on my life though,
Speaker 1: that's that's a whole new level and there's a lot
Speaker 1: to unpack there. As you mentioned, the gender issues are
Speaker 1: are right, but he is dealing with protests down there.
Speaker 1: And I think, if you're going to make a decision,
Speaker 1: you know a lot of people are going to disagree
Speaker 1: with you. Don't you want to make the one that
Speaker 1: is is the right call, that will say I would say,
Speaker 1: because I mean, really, I mean, why is that so complicated?
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know. And and especially you know,
Speaker 1: I think it especially calls me because oftentimes it will
Speaker 1: be that side that will lecture everyone else about, you know,
Speaker 1: life right, And I think that's particularly troublesome that they're
Speaker 1: making political decisions and it's costing American lives. We're taking
Speaker 1: a quick break. Stay with us, well, I know you have,
Speaker 1: you have a lot of important issues on your plate.
Speaker 1: I just want to wrap with two questions that I've
Speaker 1: been thinking a lot about. You know, in his victory speech,
Speaker 1: President elect Biden called for a nation united, a nation strengthened,
Speaker 1: a nation healed. Now that is music to my ears
Speaker 1: and I imagine to yours, and a lot of Americans
Speaker 1: are eager to begin that healing, but may not think
Speaker 1: it's possible. How do you think about that dilemma? What
Speaker 1: would national healing or even Michigan healing look like to
Speaker 1: you once we get through these months. We got more
Speaker 1: good news today about another vaccine. I'm hopeful that by
Speaker 1: April May we're gonna see widespread vaccination available. How do
Speaker 1: you think this healing that we all know we need
Speaker 1: could go forward. Well, we are in for a couple
Speaker 1: of hard months here right This winter is going to
Speaker 1: be very difficult, especially in the midst of a transition
Speaker 1: of leadership in Washington, d C. But I really do
Speaker 1: believe that it's important that we seek to understand. When
Speaker 1: I ran for governor, I got into all eighty three
Speaker 1: counties of Michigan, and Michigan is a big state, yes
Speaker 1: it is. But I got into all ad three counties
Speaker 1: because I wanted to connect with people that really understand.
Speaker 1: And I think that's important and now more than ever,
Speaker 1: and right now it's harder than ever because of COVID
Speaker 1: and because it's not safe to connect in the usual way.
Speaker 1: But I do think that that's a big part of it.
Speaker 1: I think was Bobby Kennedy said after Martin Luther King
Speaker 1: was killed that we must seek to understand. And I
Speaker 1: think that's a really important lesson. We have to see
Speaker 1: the humanity in one another. And that's why I loved
Speaker 1: the Joe Biden's speech from the Saturday after he was
Speaker 1: declared the victor. Me too, I think it's really important
Speaker 1: to see the humanity and one another, to seek to understand.
Speaker 1: And actually I think find some common ground instead of
Speaker 1: scorched earth of the last four years. Amen to that.
Speaker 1: And finally, how are you and your family planning to
Speaker 1: spend Thanksgiving this year? Can you share with us what
Speaker 1: you've got planned? Well, we're gonna zoom with my family.
Speaker 1: So my my sister lives not far from you. She's
Speaker 1: in Katona. Oh that's right up the road. I know. Well,
Speaker 1: that's why I said, if those people show up again
Speaker 1: and you want some backup, I'll sign my sister. She's
Speaker 1: even tougher than I am. But you know, we're gonna
Speaker 1: do a zoom with my sister and her family. They're
Speaker 1: staying in Katona. Usually we'd all be together, but it's
Speaker 1: just not safe and I'm discouraging people from getting together.
Speaker 1: So we'll do zoo and my husband and the girls
Speaker 1: and I are gonna each make a type of Christmas cookie.
Speaker 1: You have a contest to see who wins. Excellent. We
Speaker 1: gotta make it interesting and we'll watch the Lions and
Speaker 1: hopefully Detroit Lions will win. Well, I think that sounds
Speaker 1: like a perfect Thanksgiving. And you we usually have a
Speaker 1: huge crowd. Of course, we're not having it this year,
Speaker 1: so we're trying to divvy up. But I like the
Speaker 1: cookie contest. I mean, that's a really good idea. I
Speaker 1: may I may steal that from you. Well, Gretchen Whitmer,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for not just talking today, that's
Speaker 1: a minor piece of thank you in gratitude, but for
Speaker 1: your leadership, for your example of the kind of leadership
Speaker 1: that our country desperately needs right now. And I wish
Speaker 1: you and your family the happiest of thanksgivings and maybe
Speaker 1: a little bit of a breather from the heavy responsibilities
Speaker 1: that you are exercising. Thank you so much, Oh, thank you.
Speaker 1: It's spend an honor to be here with you. You
Speaker 1: and Me Both is brought to you by I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: We're produced by Julie Subran and Kathleen Russo, with help
Speaker 1: from Whoma Aberdeen, Nikki E Tour, Oscar Flores, Brianna Johnson,
Speaker 1: Nick Merrill, Lauren Peterson, Rob Russo, and Lona Valmorro. Our
Speaker 1: engineer is Zack McNeice. Original music is by Forest Gray.
Speaker 1: If you like the show, tell someone else about it.
Speaker 1: You can subscribe to You and Me Both on the
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
Speaker 1: your Podcasts. I wasn't the only one who was eager
Speaker 1: to hear from Governor Gretchen Whittner. A lot of our
Speaker 1: podcast listeners wrote in to suggest having her on the show,
Speaker 1: and as I told her, that really caught my attention.
Speaker 1: If you have ideas for guests, send us an email
Speaker 1: at you and me both pod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1: Come back next week when I talked to three people
Speaker 1: who have dedicated their lives to something I love. Food,
Speaker 1: we'll hear from Samine nos Rat, Jose Andreas, and the
Speaker 1: owner of one of my favorite pizzerias in Troy, New York,
Speaker 1: Rocco di Fasio.