WEBVTT - Part One: Mark Fuhrman: The Most Racist Cop, or Merely Normal Racist Cop?

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<v Speaker 1>Cool Zone Media.

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<v Speaker 2>This is Behind the Bastards, a podcast in which Sophie

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<v Speaker 2>misses the mysterious robot woman who I believe was murdered

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<v Speaker 2>and Sophie believes was never a person but was instead

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<v Speaker 2>just a program that Zoom used to have, and they

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<v Speaker 2>replaced it with a thing that tries to get you

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<v Speaker 2>to use AI whenever you record.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, well, we don't use Zoom anymore, but I do

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<v Speaker 3>miss the little I forget what we use.

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<v Speaker 1>I know I do miss the lady being like recording

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<v Speaker 1>in progress in progress.

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<v Speaker 3>But I could just say I thought that maybe she

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<v Speaker 3>misses you. Probably everybody missed it.

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<v Speaker 2>I never think that, James, James, You're Joe Joe Kasabian,

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<v Speaker 2>our god today, host of the Lions Led by Donkeys podcast,

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<v Speaker 2>Author of numerous works of fiction and at least one

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<v Speaker 2>work of nonfiction, The Hooligans of Candahar. Joe, what else

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<v Speaker 2>do you gotta plug for us?

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<v Speaker 3>Here? Uh, My newest gunpowder fantasy novel, The Highlands Burn,

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<v Speaker 3>comes out May twenty ninth. It will probably be out

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<v Speaker 3>by the time this episode comes out, So yeah, pick

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<v Speaker 3>that up. I will be available ebook, audiobook, paperback wherever

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<v Speaker 3>you get your books.

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<v Speaker 2>Awesome well check that out and check out, you know, Joe,

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<v Speaker 2>you can't have gunpowder fantasy without both gunpowder and people

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<v Speaker 2>who are willing to lie. And you know who always

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<v Speaker 2>has a gun and also lies a lot.

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<v Speaker 3>Uh cops, Yeah, exactly, Joe. It worked.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, okay, okay, it's a better reture that I thought. Great, great,

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<v Speaker 2>and just in the last you know, literally the week

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<v Speaker 2>that we're recording this, it'll have been a couple of

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<v Speaker 2>weeks ago. When you good people on the internet or

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<v Speaker 2>at Netflix, which I guess is also on the internet,

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<v Speaker 2>get to listen to slash watch these episodes. But we

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<v Speaker 2>lost a great man and a great a great law

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<v Speaker 2>enforcement officer, Joe, And you know I can, let's all

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<v Speaker 2>take our hats off at a moment of silence for

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<v Speaker 2>a great man, officer, Mark Furman. You know, we all

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<v Speaker 2>we all miss him.

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<v Speaker 3>We all miss him.

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<v Speaker 2>It's hard. It's hard going off without Mark. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>I have trouble. What's the point of life without Mark Furman,

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<v Speaker 2>Without a really racist detective who's largely responsible for O. J.

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<v Speaker 3>Simpson getting away with murder.

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<v Speaker 1>I think I'm going to like garden this weekend and like,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, go outside, touch some grass and like not

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<v Speaker 1>think about Mark Furman at all, But for the next

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<v Speaker 1>couple hours, I guess we're.

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<v Speaker 2>Gonna be thinking a lot about Mark Furman.

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<v Speaker 3>To be fair, Sophie, that is something you're going to

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<v Speaker 3>have in common with Mark Ferman.

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<v Speaker 2>He's also, Yeah, he is, he is, he is forever

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<v Speaker 2>and ever.

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<v Speaker 3>Fun fact that we're recording.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the original intro that I had written out for

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<v Speaker 2>this started as Leo Tolstoy would have said, all great

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<v Speaker 2>episodes Behind the Bastards are one of two stories. A

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<v Speaker 2>bad person goes on a journey or a famous asshole

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<v Speaker 2>just died. And that's what we're doing this week, right,

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<v Speaker 2>we're doing We're doing our eulogy and the life and

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<v Speaker 2>times of former LAPD detective and OJ Simpson trial star

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<v Speaker 2>Mark Furman.

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<v Speaker 3>And if you're not, if you didn't live.

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<v Speaker 2>Through the OJ trial, like everybody recording the podcast right now,

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<v Speaker 2>or if your memories are just faded. O. J. Simpson

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<v Speaker 2>was really good at football. You're pretty good at being

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<v Speaker 2>in fucking the Naked Guy?

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<v Speaker 3>Was that?

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<v Speaker 2>Nor was it Airplane? He was in a couple of movies.

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<v Speaker 3>Was right. I was born in eighty eight, so this

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<v Speaker 3>is right?

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<v Speaker 2>Say, you know yeah. Uh so he's very famous, beloved

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<v Speaker 2>sports star, transitioning into just general star. And then his

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<v Speaker 2>wife and her partner, his ex wife and her partner

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<v Speaker 2>are found brutally murdered.

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<v Speaker 3>OJ did it.

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<v Speaker 2>We don't need to beat around the bush here, right, Like.

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<v Speaker 3>You read a book.

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<v Speaker 2>Saying if I did it, you know, but he didn't

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<v Speaker 2>get convicted. And if you ask people why didn't he

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<v Speaker 2>get convicted, obviously there's a lot of different reasons.

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<v Speaker 3>Feel love.

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<v Speaker 2>Basically everyone agrees that the reason why OJ ultimately and

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<v Speaker 2>there's a number, but the reason why OG ultimately got

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<v Speaker 2>acquitted is because a police detective named Mark Furman, who

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<v Speaker 2>was you know, part of the one of the first

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<v Speaker 2>guys on scene and one of the guys involved with

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<v Speaker 2>like the finding of that famous black glove, was revealed

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<v Speaker 2>to be a super racist because of a bunch of

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<v Speaker 2>tapes where he had talked about all of his racist

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<v Speaker 2>beliefs and his joy of doing things like planting evidence

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<v Speaker 2>to get black people convicted of crimes that they hadn't committed.

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<v Speaker 2>And this dropped into the OJ Simpson case like a

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<v Speaker 2>bombshell and is said to have played a major role

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<v Speaker 2>on why OJ got off is that Mark Furman really

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<v Speaker 2>muddied the waters because he was such a racist piece

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<v Speaker 2>of shit. It brought into question all of the evidence

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<v Speaker 2>around OJ and all of the police work that had

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<v Speaker 2>been done to gather that evidence, and so it ultimately

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<v Speaker 2>just torpedoed the case. And that's somewhat to batable. But Mark,

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<v Speaker 2>because of how famous the case was, and because of

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<v Speaker 2>how big the story went that this LAPD detective had

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<v Speaker 2>been talking about all these crimes that a ton of

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<v Speaker 2>LAPD cops were implemented in, it caused this huge scandal

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<v Speaker 2>for the department. So it was very influential on the

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<v Speaker 2>history of like law enforcement and very influential for the

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<v Speaker 2>LAPD and just with an American culture. And so that

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<v Speaker 2>is the story we're telling this week, the story of

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<v Speaker 2>Mark Ferman. Are you excited, Joe.

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<v Speaker 3>I will say, for all of the episodes of but

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<v Speaker 3>on this show, this one has the lowest body count,

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<v Speaker 3>no direct debts. Did did you have me on? Because

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<v Speaker 3>Kim Kardashian's dad is involved in this?

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<v Speaker 2>That's right, that's right, it's the Armenian angle.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, I knew it, Robert.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, yes, all because I needed to have someone who

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<v Speaker 2>was on OJ's side and all Armenians like inherently support A. J.

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<v Speaker 2>Simpson because of Robert Kardashian.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, we have no choice.

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<v Speaker 1>One of Robert's favorite things to bring up constantly is

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<v Speaker 1>when Ross from Friends, Robert.

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<v Speaker 2>Robert, that was weird, a Belie, It was really not

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<v Speaker 2>It was really weird casting.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, they kind of put him in brown face in

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<v Speaker 3>a way. It was strange that. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I just love the way he kept saying juice. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>let's begin our episodes, Okay. Mark James Furman was born

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<v Speaker 2>on February fifth, nineteen fifty two, in Eatonville, Washington. Now

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<v Speaker 2>that's not that far from where Sophie and I live

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<v Speaker 2>right now up here in the Pacific Northwest. Today, Eatonville

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<v Speaker 2>is about seventy five percent white.

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<v Speaker 3>I think it's a little.

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<v Speaker 2>Bit less than seventy five percent white, but not much.

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<v Speaker 2>And it was a lot whiter than that in the

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen fifties. So, you know, the PNW is a very

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<v Speaker 2>white place today, and it was even more so back then.

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<v Speaker 2>And that is definitely the kind of community that Mark

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<v Speaker 2>grows up in. What became Eatonville began with the homestead

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<v Speaker 2>of a guy named Thomas Cobb Van Eaton in eighteen

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<v Speaker 2>eighty eight, constructed very close to picturesque Mountaineer. As more

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<v Speaker 2>settlers arrived in the area and particularly began to advance

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<v Speaker 2>towards the mountain, Eaton turned his homestead into a business

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<v Speaker 2>selling necessities to travelers. People settled around his house, and

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<v Speaker 2>in nineteen oh three, a railroad connection made Eatonville a

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<v Speaker 2>real town and the Eatonville Lumber Company the biggest business

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<v Speaker 2>in town. Prior to that point, settlers in the area

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<v Speaker 2>had tended to just call the whole area Marshall's Prairie,

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<v Speaker 2>after a group of Niscali Indians who originally inhabited the region.

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<v Speaker 2>These native people had been massacred in eighteen fifty six

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<v Speaker 2>by a militia not as Maxon's Raiders in retaliation for

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<v Speaker 2>a fight with a Washington militia a few weeks earlier.

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<v Speaker 2>I think this is all part of the Puget Sound

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<v Speaker 2>War perthwebsite historylink dot org. Official reports claimed only eight

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<v Speaker 2>of the Nashall hostels were killed, but virtually all accounts

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<v Speaker 2>and testimonies agree that the raiders under Maxim's command killed

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<v Speaker 2>defenseless elderly women, children, and infants. So that's where Mark's

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<v Speaker 2>hometown comes from many such cases in the US, A

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<v Speaker 2>lot of little genocide villas out in the PNWN elsewhere.

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<v Speaker 3>I love that this whole town just started because a

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<v Speaker 3>bunch of dudes squatted on another dude's front lawn. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, after wiping out the people who had previously lived there.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, that's the classic Pacific Northwest straight.

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<v Speaker 2>Very tale as old as well the paw and Mark

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<v Speaker 2>would have grown up. He wouldn't have been grown up

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<v Speaker 2>being taught that like Maxim's raiders had killed all of

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<v Speaker 2>these people's like kids, right like.

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<v Speaker 3>They would have been taught.

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<v Speaker 2>And there was a battle, you know, and they killed

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<v Speaker 2>eight of these braves right as opposed to it, and

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<v Speaker 2>then a genocide was done.

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<v Speaker 3>They killed one hundred warriors. Yeah, parenthesperies, women and children,

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<v Speaker 3>the original military aged males.

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<v Speaker 2>Ye. So he would have been raised, as I stated,

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<v Speaker 2>in a community that was nearly all white and in

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<v Speaker 2>which legends of Indian hunters like Maxon's Raiders would have

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<v Speaker 2>been celebrated in school and in the popular culture of

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<v Speaker 2>the day. Racism would not have been weird for him.

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<v Speaker 2>I've never read Mark discuss any of this history, not

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<v Speaker 2>even in his books. Does he really talk a lot

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<v Speaker 2>about his childhood, but he wouldn't have been able to

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<v Speaker 2>avoid this kind of stuff growing up in the region.

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<v Speaker 2>His dad, Ralph, was a truck driver and a carpenter,

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<v Speaker 2>and would be described later by Mark as insensitive and irresponsible,

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<v Speaker 2>as well as a braggart who doesn't mind hurting his

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<v Speaker 2>loved once. His mom, Billy, was a waitress. Their marriage

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<v Speaker 2>was not a love match, and the two divorced when

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<v Speaker 2>Mark was just seven years old.

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<v Speaker 3>How their kid ended up being a cop? Yeah, yeah, shocking.

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<v Speaker 2>This guy who talks about what an asshole, what a violent,

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<v Speaker 2>angry asshole his dad was, turns into a violent, angry asshole.

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<v Speaker 2>It does happen. Sometimes it's a bummer.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>I actually hate that this happens. But it's not good.

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<v Speaker 2>So Mark stays mostly with his mom, who remarries once,

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<v Speaker 2>but not for very long as she has a hell

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<v Speaker 2>is drinking problem and for those who knew her, could

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<v Speaker 2>be a mean drunk. So again, Mark doesn't just grow

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<v Speaker 2>up with his dad being this like very abrasive kind

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<v Speaker 2>of figure. His mom, who largely raises him, is like

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<v Speaker 2>an abusive drinker at some times. Mark thus grows up

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<v Speaker 2>this same person alleged very mistrustful and paranoid. Right, this

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<v Speaker 2>is something you'll hear from people who are close to him,

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<v Speaker 2>as he's just kind of a paranoid kid who has

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<v Speaker 2>trouble being at ease with people, which is not an

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<v Speaker 2>uncommon reaction to growing up in an abusive household.

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<v Speaker 3>Right, Yeah, this is all tracking so far.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's all tracking so far. An article in the

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<v Speaker 2>New York Times review of books by Fox Butterfield notes

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<v Speaker 2>this about Mark's level of we'll call it racial awareness

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<v Speaker 2>as a child, only a few Yeah, only a few

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<v Speaker 2>black families lived in Eatonville, and mister Furman and his

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<v Speaker 2>younger brother Scott had run ins with two boys, and

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<v Speaker 2>one of them the Blues. They'd see you coming down

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<v Speaker 2>the street and say, here come the in words, recalled

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<v Speaker 2>Daniel Blue, now a truck driver Intocoma, Washington. So that's

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<v Speaker 2>this claim you'll get. The Blues will say that like

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<v Speaker 2>Mark and his brother, would use racial slurs, target them

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<v Speaker 2>with racial slurs, would make fun of them, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>would mock them. We're like bullies, we're racist bullies.

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<v Speaker 3>Right now.

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<v Speaker 2>For his part, Marc has denied these allegations, right, or

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<v Speaker 2>at least he denied them back in the late nineties,

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<v Speaker 2>and he writes a book after the O. J. Simpson

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<v Speaker 2>trial because everybody does, called murder in Brentwood, and he

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<v Speaker 2>addresses the allegations from the Blue Brothers during this book.

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<v Speaker 2>And this is again, this is while he's like right

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<v Speaker 2>after the case, so he's been essentilly revealed as a

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<v Speaker 2>racist to the entire world. So he has to address that.

0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:38.520
<v Speaker 2>And his book Mark says that although Dan like, basically

0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:40.559
<v Speaker 2>this is a lie, I never said that to anybody.

0:11:40.760 --> 0:11:43.320
<v Speaker 2>You know, Dan says that we played football together, but

0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:45.280
<v Speaker 2>we weren't even at high school at the same time,

0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:48.360
<v Speaker 2>so we couldn't have played football together. And I guess

0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:51.120
<v Speaker 2>that's probably true. But also I can see Dan like

0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:53.720
<v Speaker 2>mixing up who he played football with and win but

0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:57.640
<v Speaker 2>remembering accurately somebody called him a slur, you know, like people.

0:11:57.679 --> 0:12:00.000
<v Speaker 3>Use them today. Yeah.

0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:02.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but Mark did say, the truth is I never

0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:05.839
<v Speaker 2>heard either brother called anything other than their name by

0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:06.720
<v Speaker 2>me or anyone else.

0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:07.840
<v Speaker 3>And that's the thing.

0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:10.319
<v Speaker 2>If before Mark saying like, well, we weren't even in

0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:12.960
<v Speaker 2>high school together, you know, this is a big story

0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:14.960
<v Speaker 2>at the time, I'd be willing to believe maybe somebody

0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:17.520
<v Speaker 2>would like life or attention, you know, to have a

0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:20.240
<v Speaker 2>little moment in the biggest news story of all time

0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:22.560
<v Speaker 2>at this point. But Mark is like, I never heard

0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:24.960
<v Speaker 2>anyone call those boys a name. I'm sorry you guys

0:12:25.000 --> 0:12:26.520
<v Speaker 2>grew up. These are like the only two black kids

0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:28.680
<v Speaker 2>in town. You grew up in the fifties in rural Washington,

0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:31.680
<v Speaker 2>and you never heard anyone call them anything but their name.

0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:35.160
<v Speaker 3>I don't believe that. I don't like them for a second,

0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:39.719
<v Speaker 3>No for a second. And like even like the idea like,

0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:42.200
<v Speaker 3>oh well, we couldn't have played football together. We weren't

0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:46.040
<v Speaker 3>even in the same grade. Yeah, because nobody who lives

0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:49.920
<v Speaker 3>in the neighborhood a small town plays pick up football games.

0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:53.200
<v Speaker 2>Ever, would ever have played any kind of pickup football game, right,

0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:56.760
<v Speaker 2>And it's the or would have mistaken like you for

0:12:56.840 --> 0:12:57.400
<v Speaker 2>younger brother.

0:12:57.480 --> 0:13:00.800
<v Speaker 3>Maybe I don't know, like the the whole, the whole.

0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:02.800
<v Speaker 2>Thing idea that like he never heard any racism against

0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:05.360
<v Speaker 2>these kids in small town washing like growing up in

0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:09.280
<v Speaker 2>rural Oklahoma in the nineties, I heard black kids in

0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:13.400
<v Speaker 2>my school get called slurs, you know, like and number one,

0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:15.719
<v Speaker 2>it was a lot more diverse like rural Oklahoma, way

0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:18.320
<v Speaker 2>more diverse than rural Washington, but just the whole fucking

0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:21.440
<v Speaker 2>like that. I just like that from the jump Mark

0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:25.400
<v Speaker 2>You're lyon. So I don't know how racist he was,

0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:28.840
<v Speaker 2>but he grew up with a lot of racism. Mark

0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:32.000
<v Speaker 2>moved around as an adolescent and attended high school, first

0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:34.960
<v Speaker 2>in gig Harbor and then Belfair. In nineteen seventy, he

0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:37.880
<v Speaker 2>graduated high school. By this point, Mark had come to

0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:40.719
<v Speaker 2>be known for something besides his racism. He was an

0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:44.600
<v Speaker 2>artsy kid. Weirdly enough, like he is, he really likes art.

0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:47.679
<v Speaker 2>He wants to be a creative. He wants to like be,

0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:50.560
<v Speaker 2>you know, pursue a creative vocation. That seems to be

0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:54.000
<v Speaker 2>his passion. And he will always and also the people

0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:55.400
<v Speaker 2>who are close to Hi will always say that, like

0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:58.559
<v Speaker 2>Mark at his core wanted to be an artist. And

0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:00.920
<v Speaker 2>I think there's a version of this story that's like

0:14:01.080 --> 0:14:05.240
<v Speaker 2>also the tragic tale of like a kid who, because

0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:07.280
<v Speaker 2>of the time and place and his ideas about like

0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:10.319
<v Speaker 2>macho stuff, couldn't do the thing that would have made

0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:13.680
<v Speaker 2>him happy, and so kept forcing himself to do these

0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:16.960
<v Speaker 2>like aggressive masculine things that he didn't really want because

0:14:16.960 --> 0:14:19.120
<v Speaker 2>he just wants to be an artist, but in nineteen

0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:22.400
<v Speaker 2>seventy he graduated enlisted in the Marines, because that's what

0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:25.240
<v Speaker 2>you do, right And yeah.

0:14:25.160 --> 0:14:28.000
<v Speaker 3>Was he also turned down by an art school in

0:14:28.040 --> 0:14:32.080
<v Speaker 3>Austria or is this a weirdness? He doesn't even apply,

0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:33.200
<v Speaker 3>doesn't even know why.

0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:37.160
<v Speaker 2>But he does kind of do the Hitler right, like

0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:40.440
<v Speaker 2>where he volunteers for the stupid war that he didn't

0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:44.800
<v Speaker 2>necessarily need to volunteer for, and so instead of continuing

0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:47.000
<v Speaker 2>or doing anything to further the art thing, he winds

0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:50.360
<v Speaker 2>up going to No. Now he serves, I should say

0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:53.720
<v Speaker 2>during the Vietnam War. He is a Vietnam era veteran.

0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:56.440
<v Speaker 2>I guess he is a veteran of the Vietnam. He's

0:14:56.480 --> 0:14:59.320
<v Speaker 2>deployed the Vietnam, but he doesn't. He's not a combat veteran, right,

0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:01.920
<v Speaker 2>like she never actually fights, and he will claim otherwise

0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:06.520
<v Speaker 2>most peoples relevant, Yeah, that's most people, most people. Yeah,

0:15:06.920 --> 0:15:09.040
<v Speaker 2>And but he and the only again there's no shame

0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:11.480
<v Speaker 2>in that, but he does. He will lie about this, right,

0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:15.520
<v Speaker 2>and that's why that's really relevant. Mark service came late

0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:17.480
<v Speaker 2>in the war and was in reality quite boring. He

0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:19.080
<v Speaker 2>doesn't actually get to do any of the stuff that

0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:21.520
<v Speaker 2>like you get the thing. He really wants to fight, right, Like,

0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:23.760
<v Speaker 2>this is a kid who, like as a lot of

0:15:23.800 --> 0:15:26.640
<v Speaker 2>young men do, wants to prove himself in combat, like

0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:29.360
<v Speaker 2>feels like he wants to wants to have that experience,

0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:31.760
<v Speaker 2>and he's not going to get it. He gets trained

0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:34.520
<v Speaker 2>as an MP and a machine gunner and rises to

0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:37.240
<v Speaker 2>the level rank of sergeant. During his four years in

0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:40.960
<v Speaker 2>the cores, Uh, he could have been deployed to combat,

0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:44.440
<v Speaker 2>but it never quite happened. That times, that New York

0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:46.800
<v Speaker 2>Times Review of Books article claims that quote the closest

0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:49.000
<v Speaker 2>he got to the ground war was aboard a ship

0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:51.760
<v Speaker 2>in the South China Sea. The ship he's on is

0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:54.760
<v Speaker 2>the USS New Orleans and it's an amphibious transport ships

0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:57.440
<v Speaker 2>and Mark is basically like living there and like on call,

0:15:57.640 --> 0:16:00.600
<v Speaker 2>like if we need to, you might get sent into

0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:03.040
<v Speaker 2>combat at any point in time, but it never actually

0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:06.040
<v Speaker 2>quite happens. So Mark spins a period of time just

0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:08.440
<v Speaker 2>kind of living for months on like the edge of

0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:11.120
<v Speaker 2>maybe going into battle. But he never gets to like

0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:14.000
<v Speaker 2>consummate this act that really does seem to mean a

0:16:14.040 --> 0:16:17.360
<v Speaker 2>lot to him. And this this act is like the

0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:19.680
<v Speaker 2>fact that this gets interrupted that he never gets his

0:16:19.720 --> 0:16:21.880
<v Speaker 2>baptism of fire is going to bother him the rest

0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:24.400
<v Speaker 2>of his life. Like, I get the feeling he never

0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:27.680
<v Speaker 2>fully gets over not being tested in this way, and

0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:28.880
<v Speaker 2>he seems to really want that.

0:16:30.240 --> 0:16:35.720
<v Speaker 3>I've been a lot of guys like that over the years. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:39.800
<v Speaker 3>they want it so much. They enlist as like infantry dudes,

0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:43.800
<v Speaker 3>and then they end up on like a massive forward

0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:47.880
<v Speaker 3>operating base that might have a rocket fired at it,

0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:51.240
<v Speaker 3>and they want to sound like the most high speed

0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:53.680
<v Speaker 3>Green Beret ass motherfucker for the rest of their life.

0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:58.080
<v Speaker 3>And they probably wear hats about where exactly they were,

0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:02.960
<v Speaker 3>where exactly they whatever? Yeah, like Camp Liberty, Like that's

0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:07.520
<v Speaker 3>the lamest fucking shit. My my favorite was Cold War

0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:12.919
<v Speaker 3>veteran hat. I've seen that. One's a classic man that's

0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:15.120
<v Speaker 3>like the ultimate dude who never did shit.

0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:19.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I love a And it's the like I feel,

0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:23.119
<v Speaker 2>I feel like I have a level understanding, because like

0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:27.919
<v Speaker 2>there is our society does like idolize the experience of

0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:30.480
<v Speaker 2>being a combat veteran to such an extent for young

0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:32.680
<v Speaker 2>men that like, I get why he's obsessed with this.

0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:33.680
<v Speaker 3>Of course he.

0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:37.800
<v Speaker 2>Is right, it's not an unfamiliar thing, and you know,

0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:41.159
<v Speaker 2>I'm not like no one's like very few people are

0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:45.320
<v Speaker 2>immune entirely to that feeling of like, oh, there's got

0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:48.280
<v Speaker 2>to be like something to this experience that's like special

0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:50.280
<v Speaker 2>and powerful.

0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:52.439
<v Speaker 3>And about it. Yeah.

0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:56.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and that when somebody believes that and buys into

0:17:56.520 --> 0:17:59.040
<v Speaker 2>that and goes as far as getting on the assault

0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:01.000
<v Speaker 2>boat next to the coast, it never quite gets to

0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:04.760
<v Speaker 2>have it. There's like a degree of failure to launch

0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:07.399
<v Speaker 2>almost syndrome that I think is just going to spark

0:18:07.440 --> 0:18:09.000
<v Speaker 2>in him the rest of his life. He never gets

0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:09.720
<v Speaker 2>over this, you know.

0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:12.320
<v Speaker 3>And he doesn't even go into the country, right, Like

0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:15.080
<v Speaker 3>he's living on this boat. So it's like he's living

0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:18.000
<v Speaker 3>on the boat. Yeah, that's like even worse because even

0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:20.400
<v Speaker 3>if you go to one of these bases, it's very

0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:24.560
<v Speaker 3>similar to any other irregular conflict where you might get ambushed, still,

0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:27.000
<v Speaker 3>you might get artillery, might get mortared, whatever, something could

0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:28.879
<v Speaker 3>still happen that you can kind of grab onto that

0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:32.000
<v Speaker 3>you did something. But he's just sitting on a boat.

0:18:32.240 --> 0:18:34.359
<v Speaker 2>He's just sitting on a boat, and it's just not

0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:37.399
<v Speaker 2>the thing he wants it to be. Now again, he

0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:39.199
<v Speaker 2>does this is he's not a draftee, So he's not

0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:41.520
<v Speaker 2>just doing his like you know, one quick, you know,

0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:44.359
<v Speaker 2>in and out. He does a full four years. During

0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:47.399
<v Speaker 2>his time as a sergeant. He develops a reputation for

0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:50.919
<v Speaker 2>what that Times journalist Butterfield calls a reputation as a

0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:54.120
<v Speaker 2>macho officer. And again, he's not an officer. That's that's

0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:57.920
<v Speaker 2>Butterfield using the wrong terminology. He's a non commissions. Yeah,

0:18:57.960 --> 0:19:02.359
<v Speaker 2>he's an oncom and not specifically a macho. Quote in

0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:06.320
<v Speaker 2>the Clint Eastwood Dirty Harry mold and Mark's kind of

0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:08.879
<v Speaker 2>love this movie when it comes out not long after,

0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:12.520
<v Speaker 2>and he is going to deliberately like try to play

0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:15.560
<v Speaker 2>act as Dirty Harry like people are, especially early in

0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:19.040
<v Speaker 2>his career. He's like often kind of LARPing specifically as

0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:21.960
<v Speaker 2>Dirty Harry. And he'll compare himself to Dirty Harry a lot.

0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:27.960
<v Speaker 3>He really it's really dork serious.

0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:35.199
<v Speaker 2>Man, come on, bro, come on, like yeah, it's it's

0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:38.439
<v Speaker 2>it's sad. And it's just the the number of like

0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:42.479
<v Speaker 2>toxic men like this who you could just you really needed,

0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:45.320
<v Speaker 2>like an older brother who would be like, hey, man,

0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:47.840
<v Speaker 2>I know you've like gotten a lot of picked up

0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:49.560
<v Speaker 2>a lot of shit from like comic books and like

0:19:49.640 --> 0:19:51.919
<v Speaker 2>movies about like what men are supposed to do, and

0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:53.720
<v Speaker 2>like like and that's all wrong. You need to like

0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:56.919
<v Speaker 2>calm down, comfortable in your own skin, like you're not

0:19:57.040 --> 0:19:59.800
<v Speaker 2>missing anything because you didn't get shot at, like there

0:19:59.800 --> 0:20:02.679
<v Speaker 2>were he didn't have any I really get the feeling

0:20:02.680 --> 0:20:05.160
<v Speaker 2>there was not There was not any kind of positive

0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:08.360
<v Speaker 2>male influence in his life who could have like modeled

0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:11.560
<v Speaker 2>proper behavior. So he's he's doing these things like, well,

0:20:11.640 --> 0:20:13.200
<v Speaker 2>I guess I go to the Marines, and that'll make

0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:15.080
<v Speaker 2>me a man, you know, And then later it's gonna

0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:16.520
<v Speaker 2>be I guess I've become a cop, and that'll make

0:20:16.520 --> 0:20:16.920
<v Speaker 2>me a man.

0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:18.159
<v Speaker 3>And you get the feeling.

0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:19.959
<v Speaker 2>This is a guy who doesn't know who he is

0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:23.040
<v Speaker 2>and who has some who it's not even that this

0:20:23.119 --> 0:20:24.760
<v Speaker 2>is a guy who knows a little of who he is.

0:20:24.840 --> 0:20:27.720
<v Speaker 2>He knows he wants to be an artist, but he

0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:30.560
<v Speaker 2>can't do that, and so he never gets to find

0:20:30.600 --> 0:20:33.440
<v Speaker 2>out like more of the person that he might otherwise

0:20:33.480 --> 0:20:37.119
<v Speaker 2>be as he falls into pretending to be this violent,

0:20:37.200 --> 0:20:40.760
<v Speaker 2>macho asshole and gradually that becomes him more and more.

0:20:41.040 --> 0:20:43.920
<v Speaker 2>Is kind of the thing that I take out of this.

0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:45.399
<v Speaker 2>This is a guy I don't think had to go

0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:48.720
<v Speaker 2>down this route, but chose to over time because he

0:20:48.840 --> 0:20:51.080
<v Speaker 2>was scared to try to portray himself as anything else.

0:20:51.680 --> 0:20:54.520
<v Speaker 3>What's the chaotic evil version of a glow up.

0:20:55.000 --> 0:21:01.040
<v Speaker 2>Right right exactly? So Mark's second wife, Janet Hackett later

0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:03.960
<v Speaker 2>told reporters he loved art, but he joined the Marines

0:21:04.000 --> 0:21:05.960
<v Speaker 2>and the police as if he was trying to prove himself.

0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:08.240
<v Speaker 2>On the outside, Mark is very poised, but inside he

0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:10.880
<v Speaker 2>had the lowest self esteem. You can't imagine. So that's

0:21:11.160 --> 0:21:13.280
<v Speaker 2>one of his three ex wives. I'm not making all

0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:16.000
<v Speaker 2>of this up myself, you know. This isn't just like

0:21:16.040 --> 0:21:18.359
<v Speaker 2>my head canon. That's at least someone who was close

0:21:18.359 --> 0:21:21.240
<v Speaker 2>to him saying pretty much the same thing. So after

0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:23.600
<v Speaker 2>he does his four years with the Marines, Mark decides

0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:25.800
<v Speaker 2>to see if joining another heavily armed group of men

0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:28.639
<v Speaker 2>working for the government might stop him from feeling insecure,

0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:32.520
<v Speaker 2>so he joins the LAPD in nineteen seventy five. He

0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:35.600
<v Speaker 2>excels at police academy and he graduates second in his

0:21:35.600 --> 0:21:39.080
<v Speaker 2>class with widespread praise from his instructors. When he becomes

0:21:39.119 --> 0:21:42.160
<v Speaker 2>a rookie cop, his bosses were all impressed by his appearance.

0:21:42.240 --> 0:21:45.040
<v Speaker 2>Mark is in great shape. His uniform is always spotless.

0:21:45.200 --> 0:21:48.480
<v Speaker 2>He like looks really good. He looks like the perfect cop.

0:21:48.720 --> 0:21:51.240
<v Speaker 2>He's like tall, blonde haired, blue eyed, and you know,

0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:55.720
<v Speaker 2>his shit's always like really like locked down his.

0:21:55.640 --> 0:21:58.000
<v Speaker 3>Back friends and marines taught him to do that.

0:21:58.320 --> 0:22:00.960
<v Speaker 2>Yep, yep, yep. And he's also he's kind of a

0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:04.640
<v Speaker 2>fastidious dude. His background as an art NERD shows through

0:22:04.680 --> 0:22:07.639
<v Speaker 2>here too. His superiors noted that his penmanship was quote

0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:10.080
<v Speaker 2>almost a work of art, right, like that's one of

0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:12.800
<v Speaker 2>his like la like his superiors in the ilbed is

0:22:12.960 --> 0:22:16.399
<v Speaker 2>like his his writing was beautiful, like being writing.

0:22:17.320 --> 0:22:20.560
<v Speaker 3>Just like finger painting. Yeah yeah, they could barely read.

0:22:22.600 --> 0:22:24.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know who else can barely read?

0:22:24.520 --> 0:22:26.000
<v Speaker 3>Joe? Who's that?

0:22:26.840 --> 0:22:31.000
<v Speaker 2>The sponsors of this podcast all nearly illiterate thanks to

0:22:31.040 --> 0:22:44.240
<v Speaker 2>America's broken public education system, and we're back. I was

0:22:44.240 --> 0:22:46.000
<v Speaker 2>that wasn't even really a joke. There's a good cho

0:22:46.160 --> 0:22:49.080
<v Speaker 2>to sponsor this podcast. Are illiterate. A shocking number of

0:22:49.119 --> 0:22:52.080
<v Speaker 2>Americans functionally are any.

0:22:51.680 --> 0:22:53.560
<v Speaker 3>Time to be writing a book, Robert, let me tell you.

0:22:53.720 --> 0:22:57.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, the pain in my laugh mm hmm.

0:22:59.000 --> 0:22:59.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:23:00.240 --> 0:23:03.280
<v Speaker 2>So in his first days as an LAPD, rookie, Mark

0:23:03.280 --> 0:23:05.520
<v Speaker 2>seems to have been very eager to please and impress.

0:23:05.600 --> 0:23:07.480
<v Speaker 2>He would often show up to work like a half

0:23:07.560 --> 0:23:10.960
<v Speaker 2>hour to an hour early. This commitment to going above

0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:13.800
<v Speaker 2>and beyond the job description was recognized by his bosses,

0:23:13.840 --> 0:23:16.439
<v Speaker 2>and in nineteen seventy seven, he was assigned to a

0:23:16.560 --> 0:23:20.280
<v Speaker 2>dangerous but prominent assignment, working with a sexy new unit

0:23:20.400 --> 0:23:24.439
<v Speaker 2>in East LA targeting Hispanic street gangs. Per an article

0:23:24.480 --> 0:23:27.000
<v Speaker 2>in the La Times, quote in nineteen seventy seven, with

0:23:27.040 --> 0:23:29.920
<v Speaker 2>black gangs emerging as a formidable criminal element in Latino,

0:23:29.920 --> 0:23:33.720
<v Speaker 2>gangs continuing to pose problems, department administrators received a one

0:23:33.840 --> 0:23:36.680
<v Speaker 2>year federal grant for a special forty four man unit

0:23:36.720 --> 0:23:39.680
<v Speaker 2>to concentrate on neighborhoods where gang crime was heaviest. Based

0:23:39.720 --> 0:23:42.400
<v Speaker 2>at the Hollandbeck Division in East Los Angeles. The unit

0:23:42.440 --> 0:23:46.240
<v Speaker 2>was dubbed Total Resources against Street Hoodlums trash, but civic

0:23:46.320 --> 0:23:52.480
<v Speaker 2>leaders thought the acronym disparaging Total resources against street hoodlums hoodlums.

0:23:53.000 --> 0:23:57.400
<v Speaker 3>Come on, guys, I love to use my fifties slang. Yeah,

0:23:57.560 --> 0:24:00.800
<v Speaker 3>now it is the seventies, but yeah, it still seems outdated. Ultimately,

0:24:00.840 --> 0:24:03.440
<v Speaker 3>the trash, get those roustabouts.

0:24:02.880 --> 0:24:06.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, get the roustabouts out of air, and people probably

0:24:06.119 --> 0:24:08.119
<v Speaker 2>haven't heard about the Trash program, but a lot of

0:24:08.240 --> 0:24:11.280
<v Speaker 2>Angelinos have heard about the Crash program, and the c's.

0:24:11.040 --> 0:24:12.720
<v Speaker 3>Where I thought you were going. I was like, of

0:24:12.760 --> 0:24:15.800
<v Speaker 3>course this guy was a fucking crash unit. That's where

0:24:15.840 --> 0:24:18.240
<v Speaker 3>I am going. Because the trash unit is the immediate

0:24:18.280 --> 0:24:21.480
<v Speaker 3>precursor to the crash unit. So they start to crashing it.

0:24:21.520 --> 0:24:23.440
<v Speaker 2>In like seventy seven, and I think it's seventy nine,

0:24:24.480 --> 0:24:26.560
<v Speaker 2>they changed the name to crash. They're like, oh, you

0:24:26.600 --> 0:24:28.600
<v Speaker 2>know what, trash is a bad acronym. But if we

0:24:28.680 --> 0:24:31.520
<v Speaker 2>throw a C in there, you know, the changes everything.

0:24:31.520 --> 0:24:32.680
<v Speaker 2>That sounds a lot better.

0:24:32.880 --> 0:24:35.159
<v Speaker 3>Right. It's what we're doing on the streets is not

0:24:35.200 --> 0:24:37.920
<v Speaker 3>the problem, Robert. It's what we're calling ourselves to put

0:24:37.920 --> 0:24:40.120
<v Speaker 3>out a really cool challenge coin.

0:24:39.920 --> 0:24:43.680
<v Speaker 2>Right right, total tea for total that's bad. See for

0:24:43.760 --> 0:24:48.280
<v Speaker 2>community that's good. So the Crash Program becomes the cornerstone

0:24:48.320 --> 0:24:52.040
<v Speaker 2>of Chief Daryl Gates's anti gang initiative. The goal here

0:24:52.240 --> 0:24:55.160
<v Speaker 2>was to counter gang activity by treating the battle against

0:24:55.280 --> 0:24:57.679
<v Speaker 2>organized crime as if it were a literal war, to

0:24:57.760 --> 0:25:01.680
<v Speaker 2>use the lessons of insurgent conflict in Vietna in order

0:25:01.720 --> 0:25:06.000
<v Speaker 2>to defeat street crime. Now, one major early measure adopted

0:25:06.000 --> 0:25:09.639
<v Speaker 2>by the LAPD was the use of stop and frisk tactics,

0:25:09.680 --> 0:25:13.399
<v Speaker 2>which they referred to as jamming. So, you know, a

0:25:13.840 --> 0:25:17.000
<v Speaker 2>lot of racism, a lot of like targeting of black

0:25:17.080 --> 0:25:19.679
<v Speaker 2>and Hispanic men, and a lot of like targeting in

0:25:19.680 --> 0:25:21.800
<v Speaker 2>a way that leads to violence when there doesn't need

0:25:21.840 --> 0:25:24.080
<v Speaker 2>to be. So a lot of people are gonna get

0:25:24.080 --> 0:25:26.160
<v Speaker 2>beaten and arrested and killed who don't need to be

0:25:26.160 --> 0:25:29.760
<v Speaker 2>because this program is basically built in order to ensure

0:25:29.800 --> 0:25:33.600
<v Speaker 2>there are additional unnecessary violent interactions between law enforcement and

0:25:33.640 --> 0:25:34.240
<v Speaker 2>the community.

0:25:34.640 --> 0:25:36.520
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, they had to name it crash because it was

0:25:36.560 --> 0:25:40.000
<v Speaker 3>really hard to find an acronym for the word boomerang. Yeah.

0:25:40.080 --> 0:25:45.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So the city government judged the CRASH program a

0:25:45.760 --> 0:25:48.560
<v Speaker 2>success and took over funding it in seventy nine. And

0:25:48.600 --> 0:25:51.000
<v Speaker 2>again that's when it becomes crash instead of trash. And

0:25:51.040 --> 0:25:54.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure by what metric you'd call crash success

0:25:54.320 --> 0:25:57.480
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen seventy nine, As that article noted, from seventy

0:25:57.560 --> 0:26:00.479
<v Speaker 2>nine to eighty one, the number of major gangs related

0:26:00.480 --> 0:26:03.280
<v Speaker 2>crimes in Los Angeles more than doubled from two thousand

0:26:03.320 --> 0:26:05.960
<v Speaker 2>and eighty eight to fivey one hundred and fifty eight

0:26:06.400 --> 0:26:08.800
<v Speaker 2>during the first like four years or so that the

0:26:08.840 --> 0:26:11.280
<v Speaker 2>crash program, I mean for during the second two years

0:26:11.280 --> 0:26:14.040
<v Speaker 2>of it. But like, yeah, from like seventy nine to

0:26:14.080 --> 0:26:17.679
<v Speaker 2>eighty one, it doubles more than now. What's funny is

0:26:17.680 --> 0:26:20.480
<v Speaker 2>that around that time the Sheriff's department had a program

0:26:20.560 --> 0:26:23.320
<v Speaker 2>with a similar goal that worked much better. Like the

0:26:23.400 --> 0:26:25.879
<v Speaker 2>Sheriff's anti gang program is a lot more effective than

0:26:25.880 --> 0:26:28.679
<v Speaker 2>the LAPDS, But the LAPD just kind of keeps ballsing

0:26:28.760 --> 0:26:32.000
<v Speaker 2>their way through crash, which critics say spread out police

0:26:32.000 --> 0:26:35.240
<v Speaker 2>attention far too widely. A large part of the problem

0:26:35.280 --> 0:26:37.560
<v Speaker 2>with these antigang units is that they had very little

0:26:37.600 --> 0:26:40.879
<v Speaker 2>effective oversight and a ton of incentive to lock people

0:26:40.920 --> 0:26:43.760
<v Speaker 2>up for bullshit reasons and carry out acts of extreme

0:26:43.840 --> 0:26:47.639
<v Speaker 2>violence against them. These programs would ultimately culminate and the

0:26:47.680 --> 0:26:51.240
<v Speaker 2>shattering LAPD ramparts scandal. This keeps getting worse and worse

0:26:51.359 --> 0:26:53.399
<v Speaker 2>until it blows up in a major way that causes

0:26:53.600 --> 0:26:57.199
<v Speaker 2>massive problems, like all LAPD scandals, because that's how the

0:26:57.320 --> 0:27:00.960
<v Speaker 2>LAPD works, you know, like we're always building to something

0:27:00.960 --> 0:27:03.720
<v Speaker 2>that's going to like blow up. In the City of

0:27:03.760 --> 0:27:06.960
<v Speaker 2>Los Angeles's face, they had to.

0:27:07.000 --> 0:27:10.720
<v Speaker 3>Create their own gangs, to fight gangs with tattoos and colors,

0:27:10.760 --> 0:27:12.920
<v Speaker 3>and you know, especially the Sheriff's department.

0:27:12.960 --> 0:27:15.760
<v Speaker 2>Ironically enough, the only way to be the bad guy

0:27:15.760 --> 0:27:18.200
<v Speaker 2>with a gang is a bad guy also with a gang.

0:27:18.480 --> 0:27:21.600
<v Speaker 2>That's right, that's right, but one is paid by the government.

0:27:22.080 --> 0:27:26.719
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, one of them has official badges. So at

0:27:26.760 --> 0:27:30.000
<v Speaker 2>the same time as Crash is making the gang problem worse,

0:27:30.480 --> 0:27:33.520
<v Speaker 2>it contributes to this ever growing sense of unease and

0:27:33.600 --> 0:27:36.640
<v Speaker 2>this building racial tension in Los Angeles. This is all,

0:27:36.760 --> 0:27:39.680
<v Speaker 2>like the whole all of the bad things about this

0:27:39.720 --> 0:27:43.439
<v Speaker 2>program are going to help cause and lead to the

0:27:43.600 --> 0:27:46.800
<v Speaker 2>LA riots. Right, this all feeds into Rodney King and

0:27:47.040 --> 0:27:49.359
<v Speaker 2>and you know the reaction to that. Why everyone is

0:27:49.359 --> 0:27:52.560
<v Speaker 2>so fucking pissed at the LAPD, you know, before that

0:27:52.600 --> 0:27:56.480
<v Speaker 2>even happens. For his part, Mark does not seem to

0:27:56.520 --> 0:27:59.600
<v Speaker 2>have liked anti gang work. He described his mission to

0:27:59.600 --> 0:28:02.840
<v Speaker 2>his second wife, who he was married to during this period,

0:28:02.960 --> 0:28:05.760
<v Speaker 2>as to quote, harass anyone who looked like a gang

0:28:05.800 --> 0:28:13.520
<v Speaker 2>member and obliterate them. Yeah, he does not. Per the times,

0:28:13.720 --> 0:28:16.680
<v Speaker 2>the job put enormous pressure on mister Furman. Missus Hackett

0:28:16.680 --> 0:28:18.920
<v Speaker 2>said that's his ax. He was blonde and blue eyed,

0:28:18.960 --> 0:28:20.760
<v Speaker 2>six foot three, and he stood out in a crowd

0:28:20.800 --> 0:28:23.520
<v Speaker 2>in the largely Hispanic neighborhood. She said he became a

0:28:23.520 --> 0:28:25.760
<v Speaker 2>lot more on the edge, moody and depressed because of

0:28:25.760 --> 0:28:28.480
<v Speaker 2>the job. Missus Hackett recalled sometimes he refused to talk

0:28:28.560 --> 0:28:32.879
<v Speaker 2>or smile for days, and like, you don't need to

0:28:32.880 --> 0:28:35.360
<v Speaker 2>be there. No one's making you do this job. I'm

0:28:35.359 --> 0:28:37.280
<v Speaker 2>not surprised it's miserable. It sounds awful.

0:28:37.800 --> 0:28:39.440
<v Speaker 3>Bro, you have a job you could just quit. You're

0:28:39.480 --> 0:28:41.560
<v Speaker 3>not the Marines anymore. Just he just hit the bricks.

0:28:42.560 --> 0:28:44.840
<v Speaker 2>She doesn't tell us a lot, like I don't have

0:28:44.880 --> 0:28:46.880
<v Speaker 2>a ton of detail inside their marriage, but you get

0:28:46.880 --> 0:28:48.560
<v Speaker 2>a lot from the fact that she's like, yeah, he

0:28:48.640 --> 0:28:49.440
<v Speaker 2>seemed miserable.

0:28:49.720 --> 0:28:52.440
<v Speaker 3>So I left him. I got out of there.

0:28:52.840 --> 0:28:55.440
<v Speaker 2>Like she divorces him because of his moodiness, like right

0:28:55.480 --> 0:28:57.960
<v Speaker 2>around this dive. So Mark winds up alone and has

0:28:58.000 --> 0:29:00.760
<v Speaker 2>to like live with a fellow cop and in an apartment.

0:29:01.320 --> 0:29:03.040
<v Speaker 2>This does not make him less depressed.

0:29:03.680 --> 0:29:04.200
<v Speaker 3>I think the.

0:29:04.200 --> 0:29:08.080
<v Speaker 2>Cause of his deep and like the cause of his

0:29:08.200 --> 0:29:11.200
<v Speaker 2>sadness should be pretty obvious. He wants to like be

0:29:11.280 --> 0:29:14.600
<v Speaker 2>an artist. He doesn't like this job, but his need

0:29:14.680 --> 0:29:17.160
<v Speaker 2>to prove himself as a man has forced him into

0:29:17.160 --> 0:29:20.480
<v Speaker 2>a series of brutal, dangerous, and pointless jobs that make

0:29:20.560 --> 0:29:23.920
<v Speaker 2>him miserable and make him miserable to be around, and

0:29:23.960 --> 0:29:27.160
<v Speaker 2>he seems to have recognized this as well. In nineteen

0:29:27.200 --> 0:29:30.880
<v Speaker 2>eighty one, the LAPD had just opened a Behavioral Science

0:29:30.960 --> 0:29:35.320
<v Speaker 2>Service section, which hosted the first police psychological counselor unit

0:29:35.360 --> 0:29:40.600
<v Speaker 2>in the country. So there aren't any police psychological counselors

0:29:40.920 --> 0:29:43.040
<v Speaker 2>officially until nineteen.

0:29:42.680 --> 0:29:46.520
<v Speaker 3>Eighty one, which explains a lot. That's fun, right, they

0:29:46.560 --> 0:29:50.760
<v Speaker 3>do so well nowadays. Yeah, yeah, it helps so much today. Yeah. Anyway,

0:29:51.040 --> 0:29:53.040
<v Speaker 3>it changed American policing obviously.

0:29:53.120 --> 0:29:54.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, after this, there were no more problems.

0:29:55.240 --> 0:29:56.520
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, solved it.

0:29:57.000 --> 0:30:00.440
<v Speaker 2>So it actually this actually explains maybe why the counseling

0:30:00.520 --> 0:30:03.600
<v Speaker 2>doesn't help and even can contribute to making things worse

0:30:03.680 --> 0:30:09.800
<v Speaker 2>within within like the construct of these police departments, because marlogy,

0:30:10.920 --> 0:30:15.040
<v Speaker 2>it's called. It's a little worse than that. Actually it's weird.

0:30:15.080 --> 0:30:17.600
<v Speaker 2>So Mark sits down. He has a counseling session with

0:30:17.640 --> 0:30:22.200
<v Speaker 2>a psychiatrist or psychologist named Susan sas Clifford, and she

0:30:22.440 --> 0:30:24.560
<v Speaker 2>talks to him and he goes through because he's he's

0:30:24.600 --> 0:30:26.960
<v Speaker 2>trying to get. He wants to quit. He wants to

0:30:26.960 --> 0:30:30.160
<v Speaker 2>get like a like a medical pension, basically like a

0:30:30.200 --> 0:30:33.360
<v Speaker 2>disability pension. So he starts telling her this elaborate story

0:30:33.360 --> 0:30:36.440
<v Speaker 2>about how he has uncontrollable urges to commit acts of

0:30:36.520 --> 0:30:40.560
<v Speaker 2>violence on suspects, sometimes choking and beating them, because he's

0:30:40.600 --> 0:30:43.520
<v Speaker 2>just like overwhelmed by a desire to do like murderous

0:30:43.600 --> 0:30:46.479
<v Speaker 2>violence to them as a result of his military training.

0:30:46.520 --> 0:30:50.280
<v Speaker 2>He tells this to the department psychologist, and Susan's like,

0:30:50.480 --> 0:30:51.760
<v Speaker 2>I think you should turn into your gun.

0:30:52.520 --> 0:30:54.320
<v Speaker 3>But two things you're true.

0:30:54.400 --> 0:31:00.720
<v Speaker 2>Number one, that's a very reasonable response on Susan's part.

0:30:59.640 --> 0:31:05.560
<v Speaker 2>I love doing violence to suspects. But it's also kind

0:31:05.600 --> 0:31:07.760
<v Speaker 2>of why programs like this are doomed to fail or

0:31:07.800 --> 0:31:11.960
<v Speaker 2>make the problem worse, because if you're gonna have and

0:31:12.080 --> 0:31:15.760
<v Speaker 2>apparently we are organizations in every city where a bunch

0:31:15.760 --> 0:31:17.680
<v Speaker 2>of guys are given guns and the ability to use

0:31:17.720 --> 0:31:21.080
<v Speaker 2>them with almost impunity to stop quote unquote crime, and

0:31:21.800 --> 0:31:24.160
<v Speaker 2>you don't have any way for those guys when they're

0:31:24.200 --> 0:31:26.480
<v Speaker 2>having a psychological problem to like say hey, I'm having

0:31:26.520 --> 0:31:28.800
<v Speaker 2>a psych problem and have it not ruined their career.

0:31:29.560 --> 0:31:32.640
<v Speaker 2>You might cause a lot of worse problems, right, Like,

0:31:32.720 --> 0:31:34.600
<v Speaker 2>if that's how they see it, sure, yeah.

0:31:34.520 --> 0:31:36.719
<v Speaker 3>Then they're just not going to say anything. Or like

0:31:37.600 --> 0:31:39.680
<v Speaker 3>also when she's like, I think you should turn in

0:31:39.760 --> 0:31:45.320
<v Speaker 3>your gun, yeah, obviously he remains a cop, right, Like,

0:31:45.440 --> 0:31:48.920
<v Speaker 3>he remains a cop. So it's not like there's any

0:31:49.160 --> 0:31:53.160
<v Speaker 3>force in you know, it's like the concept of international law, right,

0:31:53.280 --> 0:31:57.320
<v Speaker 3>Like it's all just a list of suggestions, yeah, with

0:31:57.400 --> 0:31:59.960
<v Speaker 3>no meaningful enforcement, right.

0:32:00.520 --> 0:32:03.960
<v Speaker 2>And with with this thing set up almost to like

0:32:04.160 --> 0:32:06.760
<v Speaker 2>encourage guys not to talk about stuff. Now that said,

0:32:07.840 --> 0:32:10.680
<v Speaker 2>I would go more into like, oh, the psychological issues here,

0:32:10.680 --> 0:32:12.480
<v Speaker 2>except for I think he's lying from the jump. I

0:32:12.480 --> 0:32:14.720
<v Speaker 2>think he just doesn't want to do this job anymore, right,

0:32:15.040 --> 0:32:17.280
<v Speaker 2>So I don't even want to treat this like it's

0:32:17.280 --> 0:32:20.080
<v Speaker 2>a serious psych issue that he's actually coming to them with.

0:32:21.280 --> 0:32:24.200
<v Speaker 2>But I can see how this would make guys like

0:32:24.240 --> 0:32:27.120
<v Speaker 2>that less willing to talk about their problems too.

0:32:28.080 --> 0:32:28.280
<v Speaker 3>Sure.

0:32:28.440 --> 0:32:31.280
<v Speaker 2>For her part, doctor sax Clifford later said I wouldn't

0:32:31.280 --> 0:32:33.960
<v Speaker 2>remove someone from duty unless I had very serious concerns.

0:32:34.120 --> 0:32:35.760
<v Speaker 2>The very fact that he had said these things to

0:32:35.760 --> 0:32:38.920
<v Speaker 2>a doctor shows bad judgment. And I gotta say, I

0:32:38.920 --> 0:32:41.760
<v Speaker 2>think that's a bad way to phrase it that, like, well,

0:32:41.760 --> 0:32:44.080
<v Speaker 2>but shouldn't he say things to a doctor if he's

0:32:44.320 --> 0:32:44.880
<v Speaker 2>feeling them?

0:32:45.120 --> 0:32:48.360
<v Speaker 3>Like this? Is that that judgment?

0:32:48.600 --> 0:32:51.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think it's good if you are if legit

0:32:51.640 --> 0:32:54.040
<v Speaker 2>if you were really if a cop was legitimately feeling

0:32:54.160 --> 0:32:57.959
<v Speaker 2>uncontrolled or just to murder people and he decided as

0:32:58.000 --> 0:32:59.640
<v Speaker 2>a result, I need to go to a therapist.

0:32:59.800 --> 0:33:03.560
<v Speaker 3>That that's actually good judgment. I'd say, right, yeah, right,

0:33:03.600 --> 0:33:06.320
<v Speaker 3>really right, Like well, if you know, if he was

0:33:06.440 --> 0:33:10.320
<v Speaker 3>really troubled, he wouldn't have told me, So that's fine.

0:33:10.600 --> 0:33:14.440
<v Speaker 3>I think that's a bad psych Maybe I think this

0:33:14.520 --> 0:33:17.200
<v Speaker 3>might be a bad therapist. Yeah, I think this she

0:33:17.360 --> 0:33:21.040
<v Speaker 3>she might not be good at her chop Yeah, University

0:33:21.080 --> 0:33:23.600
<v Speaker 3>of Phoenix or some ship. Yeah.

0:33:23.680 --> 0:33:25.640
<v Speaker 2>And like that said, I don't think Mark's telling the

0:33:25.640 --> 0:33:27.880
<v Speaker 2>truth here, right, Because Furman wants out of the force

0:33:27.920 --> 0:33:30.360
<v Speaker 2>and he wants to get a permanent disability pension by

0:33:30.440 --> 0:33:32.600
<v Speaker 2>arguing that his experiences in the gang unit fucked him

0:33:32.640 --> 0:33:35.440
<v Speaker 2>up too badly to go on. Uh, he does get

0:33:35.440 --> 0:33:38.920
<v Speaker 2>placed on temporary workers comp leave, and so he's getting

0:33:38.920 --> 0:33:41.160
<v Speaker 2>paid to not work and he's able to go take

0:33:41.240 --> 0:33:44.440
<v Speaker 2>art classes. So he goes to like Long Beach City College.

0:33:44.480 --> 0:33:47.640
<v Speaker 2>He starts taking art courses. He's like happy for like

0:33:47.680 --> 0:33:49.959
<v Speaker 2>a year or so while this process is going on,

0:33:50.000 --> 0:33:52.480
<v Speaker 2>as he's trying to like get cashiered out on disability

0:33:52.640 --> 0:33:54.320
<v Speaker 2>because he gets to take his art classes.

0:33:55.080 --> 0:33:57.960
<v Speaker 3>The hand turkey the university has ever.

0:33:57.800 --> 0:34:02.440
<v Speaker 2>Seen exactly, Yeah, weeping with beauty at it.

0:34:02.560 --> 0:34:02.680
<v Speaker 3>Yea.

0:34:03.160 --> 0:34:06.160
<v Speaker 2>Now here's the thing. The cops don't want to the cops.

0:34:06.400 --> 0:34:07.720
<v Speaker 2>They don't want to do that. They don't want to

0:34:07.720 --> 0:34:09.880
<v Speaker 2>like pay him forever to not work. They would like

0:34:09.960 --> 0:34:13.160
<v Speaker 2>him to either return to duty or to quit without

0:34:13.200 --> 0:34:15.959
<v Speaker 2>a permanent pension because he hasn't really served very long.

0:34:16.080 --> 0:34:18.640
<v Speaker 2>And they think this is bullshit too, But Mark really

0:34:18.640 --> 0:34:21.319
<v Speaker 2>wants that disability pension, and so later in nineteen eighty one,

0:34:21.360 --> 0:34:23.600
<v Speaker 2>he applies for one, telling his superiors that he's just

0:34:23.640 --> 0:34:26.120
<v Speaker 2>been too damaged by the job to go on. So

0:34:26.239 --> 0:34:28.120
<v Speaker 2>this point you're probably wondering, how do I know that

0:34:28.160 --> 0:34:28.720
<v Speaker 2>he's lying.

0:34:29.320 --> 0:34:30.400
<v Speaker 3>One reason would.

0:34:30.160 --> 0:34:32.759
<v Speaker 2>Be Mark Furman's mouth was moving throughout all of this,

0:34:32.920 --> 0:34:35.480
<v Speaker 2>and that's a pretty good indicator to tell if he's lying. However,

0:34:35.600 --> 0:34:38.360
<v Speaker 2>I have other evidence. Mark told the doctors at the

0:34:38.400 --> 0:34:41.279
<v Speaker 2>time that who had been assigned to evaluate him for

0:34:41.360 --> 0:34:44.440
<v Speaker 2>his disability claim that he loved his time in Vietnam

0:34:44.520 --> 0:34:48.040
<v Speaker 2>and had fond memories of becoming a trained killer. He

0:34:48.200 --> 0:34:51.000
<v Speaker 2>lied about his actual deployment, regaling them with stories of

0:34:51.040 --> 0:34:54.520
<v Speaker 2>heavy combat and near death experiences. At the same time,

0:34:54.640 --> 0:34:57.719
<v Speaker 2>per doctor Ronald Koegler, he quote bragged that he never

0:34:57.800 --> 0:35:00.279
<v Speaker 2>had any second thoughts about what he did in Vietnam,

0:35:00.520 --> 0:35:04.000
<v Speaker 2>never had any flashbacks. And I guess that's true because

0:35:04.040 --> 0:35:06.360
<v Speaker 2>he just sat on a boat. Why would you second

0:35:06.360 --> 0:35:06.759
<v Speaker 2>guess that?

0:35:07.760 --> 0:35:10.360
<v Speaker 3>But that's not what he means, right, you know. But

0:35:10.840 --> 0:35:15.120
<v Speaker 3>I think the one moral thing that Furman ever tried

0:35:15.200 --> 0:35:18.320
<v Speaker 3>to do, hear me out here, is steal a pension

0:35:18.360 --> 0:35:19.160
<v Speaker 3>from the lap.

0:35:19.239 --> 0:35:21.240
<v Speaker 2>It is it is, This is him at the moral

0:35:21.280 --> 0:35:24.080
<v Speaker 2>height of his life. Absolutely, we would all have been

0:35:24.080 --> 0:35:26.400
<v Speaker 2>better off if he'd stolen a pension from the LAPD.

0:35:29.239 --> 0:35:32.320
<v Speaker 2>So I think Furman's plan was to try and argue

0:35:32.320 --> 0:35:34.440
<v Speaker 2>that because the Marine Corps had made him into such

0:35:34.480 --> 0:35:37.279
<v Speaker 2>a lethal killing machine, he was unsafe to be a

0:35:37.320 --> 0:35:40.120
<v Speaker 2>cop because he couldn't see suspects without wanting to beat

0:35:40.160 --> 0:35:43.160
<v Speaker 2>and maim them, And per doctor Kogler, he traces his

0:35:43.200 --> 0:35:46.839
<v Speaker 2>feelings about violence to his experiences in the Marines. Mark

0:35:46.920 --> 0:35:49.760
<v Speaker 2>told another panel of doctors who evaluated him. I'm really

0:35:49.800 --> 0:35:52.160
<v Speaker 2>capable of violent things. I feel like I'm out on

0:35:52.200 --> 0:35:54.279
<v Speaker 2>a limb and someone's sawing it off. I have this

0:35:54.440 --> 0:35:59.560
<v Speaker 2>urge to kill people. And again, I think these are lies.

0:35:59.640 --> 0:36:01.560
<v Speaker 2>But it could have worked if it weren't for the

0:36:01.640 --> 0:36:04.880
<v Speaker 2>fact that Mark was like the millionth LAPD cop to

0:36:04.960 --> 0:36:07.759
<v Speaker 2>realize that a permanent disability pension sounded way better than

0:36:07.800 --> 0:36:11.600
<v Speaker 2>working for a living. The department was noted nationwide as

0:36:11.640 --> 0:36:14.759
<v Speaker 2>having a number one, an usually good pension plan that

0:36:14.840 --> 0:36:17.839
<v Speaker 2>promised officers with a psych disability up to half their

0:36:17.880 --> 0:36:20.920
<v Speaker 2>pay tax free for life. And so from nineteen eighty

0:36:21.000 --> 0:36:21.879
<v Speaker 2>to nineteen.

0:36:21.560 --> 0:36:23.719
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, not a bad deal. Yeah.

0:36:24.160 --> 0:36:26.360
<v Speaker 2>From nineteen eighty to nineteen eighty five, one hundred and

0:36:26.400 --> 0:36:30.520
<v Speaker 2>seventy five LAPED officers were granted stress disability pensions, which

0:36:30.560 --> 0:36:34.520
<v Speaker 2>became known as psycho pensions. That's like the term within

0:36:34.560 --> 0:36:37.799
<v Speaker 2>the department for this. Now. The fact that these kind

0:36:37.880 --> 0:36:41.279
<v Speaker 2>of disability pensions were weirdly common just in LA was

0:36:41.440 --> 0:36:44.120
<v Speaker 2>noted in a nineteen eighty five Los Angeles Times article

0:36:44.160 --> 0:36:47.520
<v Speaker 2>by Robert Welkes and Claire Spiegel. Quote, although stress pensions

0:36:47.560 --> 0:36:50.480
<v Speaker 2>have risen dramatically in the LAPD during the last five years.

0:36:50.640 --> 0:36:52.520
<v Speaker 2>They are rare in many other major law.

0:36:52.400 --> 0:36:56.160
<v Speaker 3>Enforcement agencies outside of California, so no one else does this,

0:36:56.480 --> 0:36:57.080
<v Speaker 3>and it's weird.

0:36:57.160 --> 0:37:01.399
<v Speaker 2>Only LAPD cops are getting these because they.

0:37:01.360 --> 0:37:03.239
<v Speaker 3>Just don't want to don't want to do the thought

0:37:03.280 --> 0:37:07.480
<v Speaker 3>like the biggest department in the country, the best institutional corruption,

0:37:07.600 --> 0:37:10.120
<v Speaker 3>Like are you between them and their own sheriff's department

0:37:10.480 --> 0:37:13.000
<v Speaker 3>and give it a way out to cash out early?

0:37:13.080 --> 0:37:17.400
<v Speaker 3>They fuck yeah, they're gonna take it. Let them just

0:37:17.440 --> 0:37:19.320
<v Speaker 3>steal all their overtime like they normally.

0:37:19.880 --> 0:37:25.160
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, I consider this probably a net benefit, you know, yeah, Like,

0:37:25.920 --> 0:37:28.520
<v Speaker 2>let's get these dudes off the fucking streets.

0:37:28.880 --> 0:37:29.520
<v Speaker 3>I support this.

0:37:29.840 --> 0:37:31.480
<v Speaker 2>You know who else we should get off the streets?

0:37:31.560 --> 0:37:33.280
<v Speaker 3>Joe? Who's that? Robert?

0:37:33.719 --> 0:37:38.720
<v Speaker 2>The sponsors of this podcast, all of whom are walking

0:37:38.800 --> 0:37:39.320
<v Speaker 2>the streets.

0:37:39.360 --> 0:37:41.120
<v Speaker 3>I don't know. I don't know what I'm doing it.

0:37:49.560 --> 0:37:51.200
<v Speaker 3>And we're back.

0:37:51.640 --> 0:37:55.880
<v Speaker 2>We're back, and we're talking about Mark Furman's attempt to

0:37:56.080 --> 0:38:00.239
<v Speaker 2>get a psychicability pension from the la b ED. So

0:38:00.719 --> 0:38:04.040
<v Speaker 2>this doesn't work out for him ultimately. Psychiatrist John Hackman

0:38:04.320 --> 0:38:07.920
<v Speaker 2>concluded that Furman was not legitimately disabled by his work.

0:38:08.239 --> 0:38:11.080
<v Speaker 2>Hawkman wrote, there is some suggestion here that the patient

0:38:11.120 --> 0:38:14.520
<v Speaker 2>was trying to feign the presence of severe psychopathology. This

0:38:14.560 --> 0:38:17.480
<v Speaker 2>suggests a conscious attempt to look bad and an exaggeration

0:38:17.560 --> 0:38:20.640
<v Speaker 2>of problems. In a presentation to the pension board, he

0:38:20.760 --> 0:38:24.040
<v Speaker 2>noted that Furman had failed a standard psychological test as well.

0:38:24.440 --> 0:38:27.799
<v Speaker 2>The board voted six to zero to deny Mark's disability

0:38:27.840 --> 0:38:28.920
<v Speaker 2>pension ouch.

0:38:29.120 --> 0:38:34.400
<v Speaker 3>Nice to go steal ot and backup vacation days like

0:38:34.560 --> 0:38:36.839
<v Speaker 3>a normal LAPD officer. That's right.

0:38:37.080 --> 0:38:42.520
<v Speaker 2>You have to be a corrupt, lazy bastard, the normal cobway. Now,

0:38:42.600 --> 0:38:45.719
<v Speaker 2>the fact that Mark had completely invented his combat experiences

0:38:45.800 --> 0:38:49.280
<v Speaker 2>and Nam wasn't caught at the time, but the pension

0:38:49.320 --> 0:38:52.560
<v Speaker 2>board did note that police records found no complaints of

0:38:52.600 --> 0:38:55.839
<v Speaker 2>excessive force had been filed against Furman. If he were

0:38:55.920 --> 0:38:59.000
<v Speaker 2>dangerously unhinged, the argument went, he probably would have fucked

0:38:59.000 --> 0:39:01.359
<v Speaker 2>somebody up by now. I don't know if that's the

0:39:01.360 --> 0:39:03.600
<v Speaker 2>best way to go about this is the LAPED, but

0:39:03.640 --> 0:39:04.400
<v Speaker 2>that's how they do it.

0:39:05.280 --> 0:39:07.560
<v Speaker 3>I would expect nothing less from the LAPD to be

0:39:07.600 --> 0:39:10.040
<v Speaker 3>fair like well, he was trually insane, he would have

0:39:10.120 --> 0:39:11.279
<v Speaker 3>murdered someone by now.

0:39:11.760 --> 0:39:13.799
<v Speaker 2>We have a ton of cops who have trust us.

0:39:14.080 --> 0:39:16.400
<v Speaker 2>We know what the murder cops look like, and we

0:39:16.520 --> 0:39:17.560
<v Speaker 2>keep them on the job too.

0:39:17.680 --> 0:39:19.000
<v Speaker 3>We would promote him.

0:39:19.280 --> 0:39:22.919
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he'd be cheap by now. So Mark doesn't take

0:39:22.920 --> 0:39:24.120
<v Speaker 2>this denial lying down.

0:39:24.160 --> 0:39:24.359
<v Speaker 1>Though.

0:39:24.400 --> 0:39:27.000
<v Speaker 2>He appealed to a county judge, which made his court

0:39:27.040 --> 0:39:29.200
<v Speaker 2>records public, which is why we know all of this now.

0:39:29.520 --> 0:39:32.000
<v Speaker 2>In September of nineteen eighty three, the judge upheld the

0:39:32.040 --> 0:39:35.320
<v Speaker 2>board's ruling and Mark Furman's brief break for the artistic

0:39:35.400 --> 0:39:38.960
<v Speaker 2>life was over. He'd either have to quit the LAPD

0:39:39.160 --> 0:39:42.200
<v Speaker 2>and find a real job or go back to work,

0:39:42.360 --> 0:39:47.600
<v Speaker 2>probably as something of a pariah within the department. Mark's

0:39:47.640 --> 0:39:49.719
<v Speaker 2>not willing to get a real job, so he goes

0:39:49.760 --> 0:39:52.680
<v Speaker 2>back to the LAPD, and sure enough, he spends most

0:39:52.719 --> 0:39:56.200
<v Speaker 2>of his first year back on active duty writing a desk. Now,

0:39:56.239 --> 0:39:58.160
<v Speaker 2>I don't have a lot of detail on this period

0:39:58.160 --> 0:40:00.080
<v Speaker 2>of time in his life, but it's interesting to me.

0:40:00.800 --> 0:40:03.280
<v Speaker 2>It's just eight months before he gets back to active

0:40:03.320 --> 0:40:05.960
<v Speaker 2>duty work as a patrolman in May of nineteen eighty four.

0:40:06.640 --> 0:40:09.080
<v Speaker 2>And this is interesting because you would assume, after having

0:40:09.160 --> 0:40:11.560
<v Speaker 2>tried to get out and like saying all this bullshit,

0:40:11.600 --> 0:40:13.560
<v Speaker 2>he would be kind of unpopular and people would be

0:40:13.560 --> 0:40:16.120
<v Speaker 2>making fun of him. I think he's actually like really

0:40:16.280 --> 0:40:20.239
<v Speaker 2>charming and charismatic within sort of an organization like this,

0:40:20.280 --> 0:40:23.680
<v Speaker 2>because he seems to have friends in the department. He

0:40:23.719 --> 0:40:27.640
<v Speaker 2>gets his gun and patrol route back pretty quickly, and

0:40:27.719 --> 0:40:31.160
<v Speaker 2>in short order he's actually assigned to a better location.

0:40:31.400 --> 0:40:34.920
<v Speaker 2>He gets sent to West LA. West Los Angeles is

0:40:34.960 --> 0:40:37.640
<v Speaker 2>the wealthiest part of town and thus the easiest beat

0:40:37.680 --> 0:40:40.440
<v Speaker 2>to walk, right, Like a lot less of the crime

0:40:40.480 --> 0:40:44.600
<v Speaker 2>and gang stuff that Mark was clearly scared by. And

0:40:44.640 --> 0:40:47.920
<v Speaker 2>despite Mark's claims that he suffered from uncontrollable bloodlust, he

0:40:48.040 --> 0:40:51.240
<v Speaker 2>excelled at working in West LA, where tact and charm

0:40:51.280 --> 0:40:55.240
<v Speaker 2>were significantly more valuable than violence, which also maybe suggests

0:40:55.280 --> 0:40:57.680
<v Speaker 2>that he was never actually all that violent of a guy.

0:40:58.200 --> 0:41:00.480
<v Speaker 2>The fact that he does really well once there's a

0:41:00.520 --> 0:41:03.120
<v Speaker 2>job where he could just be charming to other white people,

0:41:03.440 --> 0:41:06.239
<v Speaker 2>he suddenly is a good cop, like quote unquote right,

0:41:06.800 --> 0:41:08.080
<v Speaker 2>And if he was, you.

0:41:08.040 --> 0:41:13.760
<v Speaker 3>Know, handicapped by an uncontrollable urge to savage every single

0:41:13.800 --> 0:41:16.680
<v Speaker 3>person he ever met, Yeah, wouldn't he want to just

0:41:16.800 --> 0:41:18.919
<v Speaker 3>ride the desk instead? Yeah?

0:41:20.760 --> 0:41:24.359
<v Speaker 2>Why does he want to be back in the street, Like, dude,

0:41:24.520 --> 0:41:27.200
<v Speaker 2>just file paper, you get paid the same amount of money.

0:41:27.880 --> 0:41:28.200
<v Speaker 3>Yep.

0:41:29.200 --> 0:41:32.000
<v Speaker 2>So again I think he's lying about being this like

0:41:32.120 --> 0:41:35.439
<v Speaker 2>violent maniac. As Brian Bentley, a black police officer who

0:41:35.480 --> 0:41:38.440
<v Speaker 2>was Freman's partner during this period, told a journalist in

0:41:38.480 --> 0:41:40.839
<v Speaker 2>West LA you can't even yell at people. There are

0:41:40.880 --> 0:41:43.080
<v Speaker 2>movie stars who know the president of the United States

0:41:43.120 --> 0:41:47.160
<v Speaker 2>and they write everyone they can. Basically like, Mark was

0:41:47.239 --> 0:41:49.759
<v Speaker 2>really great at like being a cop who has to

0:41:49.800 --> 0:41:54.160
<v Speaker 2>interact with celebrities sometimes. You know, I know from personal

0:41:54.200 --> 0:41:56.600
<v Speaker 2>experience that's a slight exaggeration, but the basic point is

0:41:56.640 --> 0:41:58.920
<v Speaker 2>pretty sound. What's Furman moves to an area where he's

0:41:58.960 --> 0:42:01.919
<v Speaker 2>in no real days. He seems to like being a cop,

0:42:01.960 --> 0:42:05.200
<v Speaker 2>and his semi annual evaluations back this up. He gets

0:42:05.239 --> 0:42:08.000
<v Speaker 2>positive reviews from his superiors in the August of nineteen

0:42:08.040 --> 0:42:11.359
<v Speaker 2>eighty seven. He's described by one as highly motivated and

0:42:11.440 --> 0:42:15.840
<v Speaker 2>having a bias for action. He was described somewhat differently

0:42:16.040 --> 0:42:19.440
<v Speaker 2>by civilians who encountered him at the time. Natalie Singer

0:42:19.520 --> 0:42:21.839
<v Speaker 2>met Mark and his partner at the in during this

0:42:21.880 --> 0:42:24.760
<v Speaker 2>period in a hospital emergency room in nineteen eighty seven.

0:42:25.200 --> 0:42:27.960
<v Speaker 2>She claims that he told her the only good inward

0:42:28.120 --> 0:42:32.160
<v Speaker 2>is a dead inward, So cra it's not what a

0:42:32.280 --> 0:42:33.000
<v Speaker 2>great to hear.

0:42:34.000 --> 0:42:37.839
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and knowing him, he just brings it up like, hey,

0:42:37.880 --> 0:42:39.719
<v Speaker 3>by the way, that's what she says it.

0:42:40.040 --> 0:42:43.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah now, and actually kind of how Mark says it,

0:42:43.200 --> 0:42:45.520
<v Speaker 2>because in his book Murder in Brentwood, he does kind

0:42:45.520 --> 0:42:47.600
<v Speaker 2>of deny this, but he gives a very different story

0:42:47.640 --> 0:42:49.120
<v Speaker 2>of his relationship with this woman.

0:42:49.320 --> 0:42:49.680
<v Speaker 3>Quote.

0:42:49.960 --> 0:42:52.200
<v Speaker 2>I met Natalie Singer in nineteen eighty seven because my

0:42:52.239 --> 0:42:55.240
<v Speaker 2>partner was dating her roommate. I can't recall exact incidents,

0:42:55.239 --> 0:42:57.240
<v Speaker 2>but I won't say we didn't argue. I do remember

0:42:57.280 --> 0:42:58.959
<v Speaker 2>that we did not get along, and I tried hard

0:42:58.960 --> 0:43:02.560
<v Speaker 2>to irritate and anger her. He's like he's saying, oh,

0:43:02.560 --> 0:43:04.920
<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't have said that, but I did say stuff

0:43:04.960 --> 0:43:05.840
<v Speaker 2>just to piss her off.

0:43:06.400 --> 0:43:11.080
<v Speaker 3>So his defense is straight out of twenty twenty six, Like, no,

0:43:11.160 --> 0:43:13.520
<v Speaker 3>you don't understand. I was simply trolled. It was a bit,

0:43:13.680 --> 0:43:19.000
<v Speaker 3>It was a bit. Yeah, that's yeah, fuck off. Yeah.

0:43:19.040 --> 0:43:22.000
<v Speaker 2>So here's the thing, And like, I don't know that

0:43:22.040 --> 0:43:24.000
<v Speaker 2>either of them are lying about the basic facts, by

0:43:24.040 --> 0:43:27.280
<v Speaker 2>which I mean I believe that Mark said what Natalie

0:43:27.320 --> 0:43:30.600
<v Speaker 2>said that he said because we have him recorded saying

0:43:30.640 --> 0:43:34.719
<v Speaker 2>almost identical things. I also believe that Mark when when

0:43:34.760 --> 0:43:36.399
<v Speaker 2>Mark said that, like, well, I would often just say

0:43:36.400 --> 0:43:38.759
<v Speaker 2>shit to piss her off. I think that's true, and

0:43:38.840 --> 0:43:40.560
<v Speaker 2>I think he might have said that, he might have

0:43:40.600 --> 0:43:42.799
<v Speaker 2>said racist shit just to piss her off. I think

0:43:42.840 --> 0:43:45.680
<v Speaker 2>his motivation in that might have been just to troll her,

0:43:46.040 --> 0:43:48.240
<v Speaker 2>which doesn't make it not racist, right.

0:43:48.760 --> 0:43:53.200
<v Speaker 3>Right, I believe every side of the story simultaneously. That's possible.

0:43:53.280 --> 0:43:55.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, these are all and then if these are

0:43:55.120 --> 0:44:00.160
<v Speaker 2>in conflict. Another contact of Marx during this period who

0:44:00.160 --> 0:44:02.800
<v Speaker 2>would later be asked to testify about his racism was

0:44:02.880 --> 0:44:05.719
<v Speaker 2>Roderick Hodge, who he arrested on drug charges also in

0:44:05.800 --> 0:44:08.920
<v Speaker 2>nineteen eighty seven. Hodge was acquitted of these charges and

0:44:09.000 --> 0:44:11.680
<v Speaker 2>claims that the cop Furman who arrested him per time,

0:44:12.000 --> 0:44:15.120
<v Speaker 2>as quote, snarling from his patrol car. I told you

0:44:15.200 --> 0:44:17.799
<v Speaker 2>we'd get you in word right, So Hodge says, when

0:44:17.800 --> 0:44:20.799
<v Speaker 2>this guy arrested me, he snarls this to me, and

0:44:20.800 --> 0:44:23.839
<v Speaker 2>then I'm acquitted because they were bullshit charges. Here's what

0:44:23.920 --> 0:44:27.200
<v Speaker 2>Mark writes later about this interaction with Roderick. I came

0:44:27.239 --> 0:44:29.640
<v Speaker 2>to know Rodrick Hodge while working a Gang narcotic unit

0:44:29.680 --> 0:44:31.879
<v Speaker 2>as a uniformed officer in West Los Angeles from nineteen

0:44:31.920 --> 0:44:34.560
<v Speaker 2>eighty five to nineteen eighty seven, Hodge was under investigation

0:44:34.640 --> 0:44:37.279
<v Speaker 2>for dealing narcotics. I had many contacts with Hodge and

0:44:37.400 --> 0:44:40.200
<v Speaker 2>arrested him twice. During both arrests, he made complaints about

0:44:40.200 --> 0:44:42.520
<v Speaker 2>his handling by both arresting officers and wanted to speak

0:44:42.560 --> 0:44:44.840
<v Speaker 2>with a sergeant. There was no merit to his charges,

0:44:44.840 --> 0:44:47.160
<v Speaker 2>and he never claimed I used racial epithets. He was

0:44:47.239 --> 0:44:49.359
<v Speaker 2>just complaining in an attempt to draw attention away from

0:44:49.400 --> 0:44:52.880
<v Speaker 2>his own arrests. Now, I don't know who this is,

0:44:53.600 --> 0:44:54.520
<v Speaker 2>who's telling the truth.

0:44:54.560 --> 0:44:55.280
<v Speaker 3>I have no idea.

0:44:55.400 --> 0:44:57.879
<v Speaker 2>The fact that Hodge was acquitted certainly makes me more

0:44:57.920 --> 0:45:00.080
<v Speaker 2>inclined to take a side maybe than Mark's here. But

0:45:00.160 --> 0:45:01.440
<v Speaker 2>I don't actually know what happened.

0:45:02.960 --> 0:45:05.600
<v Speaker 3>That's the whole book. Him just trying to explain all.

0:45:05.480 --> 0:45:09.840
<v Speaker 2>The shocking a lot of it because he says it

0:45:09.920 --> 0:45:12.799
<v Speaker 2>a lot. He's used those words that weren't a lot.

0:45:13.440 --> 0:45:15.440
<v Speaker 3>I'm gonna go on a limb here, and suggests he

0:45:15.560 --> 0:45:20.680
<v Speaker 3>might not be the most trustworthy motherfucker. Might be a racist, Yeah.

0:45:20.520 --> 0:45:23.799
<v Speaker 1>It might be racist, might be a horrific racist.

0:45:24.800 --> 0:45:28.759
<v Speaker 2>It is noteworthy that there are allegations of racism from

0:45:28.760 --> 0:45:31.799
<v Speaker 2>Mark that also come from within the LAPD one of

0:45:31.800 --> 0:45:33.200
<v Speaker 2>Mark's office.

0:45:33.440 --> 0:45:37.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, that's wild. How are you so racist that

0:45:37.080 --> 0:45:40.960
<v Speaker 3>the lapd is like? Whoa WHOA great question, Joe.

0:45:41.200 --> 0:45:45.120
<v Speaker 2>How Let's let's explore that one of Mark's co workers,

0:45:45.239 --> 0:45:48.799
<v Speaker 2>officer James Perty, married a Jewish woman around nineteen eighty

0:45:48.800 --> 0:45:51.960
<v Speaker 2>five and would later testify that after his marriage, Mark

0:45:52.000 --> 0:45:54.680
<v Speaker 2>Furman painted a swastika on his locker.

0:45:55.239 --> 0:45:57.320
<v Speaker 3>Now, oh my god, Mark.

0:45:57.200 --> 0:46:00.440
<v Speaker 2>Denies this, and Mark is like, I would ever have

0:46:00.560 --> 0:46:04.400
<v Speaker 2>done anything that hateful, Oh my swap painter a swastika

0:46:04.719 --> 0:46:06.919
<v Speaker 2>on an officer's you know, locker just because he married

0:46:06.920 --> 0:46:09.239
<v Speaker 2>a Jewish one. I would never do anything like that.

0:46:09.680 --> 0:46:12.799
<v Speaker 2>And then Mark continues with a line of argument that's

0:46:12.800 --> 0:46:15.879
<v Speaker 2>almost like craft in a lab to make me doubt him. Well,

0:46:17.000 --> 0:46:20.520
<v Speaker 2>Perty was hardly popular in West LA. There were so

0:46:20.719 --> 0:46:23.000
<v Speaker 2>many people who either didn't care for him or flat

0:46:23.000 --> 0:46:25.200
<v Speaker 2>out couldn't stand him, that it would be difficult to

0:46:25.239 --> 0:46:28.280
<v Speaker 2>speculate who might have defaced his locker if that incident

0:46:28.320 --> 0:46:31.680
<v Speaker 2>ever really occurred. The whole apartment wanted to paint a

0:46:31.719 --> 0:46:33.360
<v Speaker 2>swastika on that guy's locker?

0:46:33.560 --> 0:46:37.080
<v Speaker 3>Why do you think it was me? People cops were

0:46:37.160 --> 0:46:40.160
<v Speaker 3>lighting up to paint a swastika on this guy's locker.

0:46:40.719 --> 0:46:43.680
<v Speaker 3>And the fact that when the swastika was painted on

0:46:43.719 --> 0:46:45.839
<v Speaker 3>his locker and the cop in quest was like, this

0:46:45.960 --> 0:46:49.279
<v Speaker 3>had to be Furman. Tyah, that there's like a chain

0:46:49.320 --> 0:46:51.759
<v Speaker 3>of events that led to the point where someone looked

0:46:51.760 --> 0:46:54.160
<v Speaker 3>at him like that's a cop would paint a swastika

0:46:54.160 --> 0:46:55.880
<v Speaker 3>on the motherfuck his locker, you know what I'm saying?

0:46:55.920 --> 0:46:58.640
<v Speaker 3>Like how many things did he do to get there?

0:46:59.400 --> 0:47:02.280
<v Speaker 2>The fact that this guy defaulted to assuming it was Furman,

0:47:02.400 --> 0:47:05.440
<v Speaker 2>if that's what he did right, right, is says almost

0:47:05.520 --> 0:47:07.720
<v Speaker 2>more than like if we knew for a fact Furman

0:47:07.760 --> 0:47:10.360
<v Speaker 2>had painted the swastika, just people like it had to

0:47:10.360 --> 0:47:12.640
<v Speaker 2>have been him. It literally has to have been him, right.

0:47:13.840 --> 0:47:17.680
<v Speaker 3>The other cop was like, yeah, this has Furman written

0:47:17.719 --> 0:47:18.120
<v Speaker 3>all over it.

0:47:18.280 --> 0:47:22.000
<v Speaker 2>It sounds like Mark. Yeah, it sounds like Mark. So

0:47:23.080 --> 0:47:25.640
<v Speaker 2>it's one of those things like it's such a like saying, oh,

0:47:25.680 --> 0:47:28.040
<v Speaker 2>I would never have like done something that bad, But

0:47:28.080 --> 0:47:30.600
<v Speaker 2>also this guy sucks that almost anyone could have done it,

0:47:30.640 --> 0:47:33.040
<v Speaker 2>so like why is he blaming me? It's such perfect

0:47:33.160 --> 0:47:37.279
<v Speaker 2>bully logic, and I think that's the correct comparison to draw,

0:47:37.320 --> 0:47:40.080
<v Speaker 2>like a high school bully if you want to understand

0:47:40.160 --> 0:47:43.400
<v Speaker 2>the social role that Mark Furman held in the LAPD

0:47:43.560 --> 0:47:45.520
<v Speaker 2>hierarchy by the late nineteen eighties, like the mid to

0:47:45.600 --> 0:47:49.480
<v Speaker 2>late eighties, he is like a kind of popular bully.

0:47:49.800 --> 0:47:52.040
<v Speaker 2>He's like popular specifically with like the cool kids in

0:47:52.080 --> 0:47:56.279
<v Speaker 2>the LAPD who are like the white guy officers, right.

0:47:56.440 --> 0:47:59.719
<v Speaker 2>Like that kind of seems to be his position in

0:47:59.719 --> 0:48:04.120
<v Speaker 2>the way department. He's like, you know, and again, he's

0:48:04.120 --> 0:48:06.640
<v Speaker 2>obviously capable of being charming when he wants to be

0:48:06.760 --> 0:48:10.040
<v Speaker 2>and being likable when he wants to be. It's also

0:48:10.080 --> 0:48:12.560
<v Speaker 2>worth noting that as comfortable as he is with racism,

0:48:12.640 --> 0:48:14.719
<v Speaker 2>and as like natural as it is for him to

0:48:14.880 --> 0:48:18.200
<v Speaker 2>use racism in humor and slurs in humor, I think

0:48:19.000 --> 0:48:22.520
<v Speaker 2>it's largely because he likes the edgy trolling. Because Mark

0:48:22.640 --> 0:48:26.240
<v Speaker 2>is at least capable of forming genuine friendships and working

0:48:26.280 --> 0:48:29.719
<v Speaker 2>well with non white officers, right, which makes me think, again,

0:48:29.760 --> 0:48:33.160
<v Speaker 2>he's capable of viewing individuals as people. He's obviously racist,

0:48:33.640 --> 0:48:38.400
<v Speaker 2>but the racism also comes out, not just the racism

0:48:38.440 --> 0:48:43.200
<v Speaker 2>is not coming out uncontrollably. He lets his racism out

0:48:43.560 --> 0:48:46.799
<v Speaker 2>when he thinks it's funny and will be socially beneficial,

0:48:47.080 --> 0:48:49.839
<v Speaker 2>and he's more than capable of like not letting it

0:48:49.840 --> 0:48:52.960
<v Speaker 2>out when he either is with like an like a

0:48:53.000 --> 0:48:55.480
<v Speaker 2>black or Hispanic officer that he gets along with, or

0:48:55.520 --> 0:48:58.239
<v Speaker 2>that he recognizes as popular and that he doesn't want

0:48:58.280 --> 0:49:02.640
<v Speaker 2>to be like unol. Right, Like, he's able to do that,

0:49:02.719 --> 0:49:05.439
<v Speaker 2>He's able to calculate when he lets the racism out.

0:49:06.080 --> 0:49:09.360
<v Speaker 3>So we have like another classic example of some dickhead

0:49:09.600 --> 0:49:16.120
<v Speaker 3>racist troll you deploying racism as something is a barb Yeah,

0:49:16.239 --> 0:49:20.720
<v Speaker 3>slowly over time, simply becoming a racist, right, Yeah, Robert

0:49:21.239 --> 0:49:24.520
<v Speaker 3>heard this civilian Yes, tale is all his time.

0:49:26.239 --> 0:49:28.440
<v Speaker 2>So when the oj Simpson trial came out, and like

0:49:28.480 --> 0:49:30.440
<v Speaker 2>the recordings of Mark being a racist that we'll talk

0:49:30.440 --> 0:49:32.839
<v Speaker 2>about later came out, several of his former partners who

0:49:32.880 --> 0:49:36.200
<v Speaker 2>were black and Hispanic men were brought forward by the

0:49:36.280 --> 0:49:38.719
<v Speaker 2>LAPD to talk about the fact that, oh no, Mark

0:49:38.840 --> 0:49:41.920
<v Speaker 2>wasn't a racist, and they all expressed seemingly genuine sentiment

0:49:41.960 --> 0:49:44.880
<v Speaker 2>that Mark had not been racist around them. These guys

0:49:44.960 --> 0:49:48.160
<v Speaker 2>are all cops, so I won't say I believe them entirely,

0:49:48.520 --> 0:49:51.560
<v Speaker 2>but I could also see individual guys not having had

0:49:51.560 --> 0:49:54.120
<v Speaker 2>that experience with Mark for the reasons that I just explained.

0:49:55.880 --> 0:49:58.520
<v Speaker 2>And again, racism is a thing for Mark, but it's

0:49:58.560 --> 0:50:01.440
<v Speaker 2>not the only thing. Social state and comforted work matters,

0:50:01.440 --> 0:50:04.360
<v Speaker 2>and he's capable of like taking people's individuals and forming

0:50:04.400 --> 0:50:07.200
<v Speaker 2>relationships with them based on that, especially if it's advantageous

0:50:07.200 --> 0:50:09.960
<v Speaker 2>to his social standing. One of his first partners was

0:50:10.000 --> 0:50:12.720
<v Speaker 2>referred to Allance, an Hispanic officer, who said that Furman

0:50:13.040 --> 0:50:16.239
<v Speaker 2>exemplified exactly what a police officer ought to be. We

0:50:16.360 --> 0:50:18.440
<v Speaker 2>take it to the bad guys, and Mark was very

0:50:18.480 --> 0:50:21.120
<v Speaker 2>good at it. However, it's just as clear to me

0:50:21.200 --> 0:50:23.239
<v Speaker 2>that in the normal course of daily life, dealing with

0:50:23.280 --> 0:50:26.919
<v Speaker 2>people he saw as civilians and not colleagues, Mark defaulted

0:50:26.960 --> 0:50:29.880
<v Speaker 2>to violence and to bigotry. For The New York Times,

0:50:30.200 --> 0:50:32.520
<v Speaker 2>from nineteen eighty four to nineteen ninety, at least half

0:50:32.520 --> 0:50:35.680
<v Speaker 2>a dozen complaints were made against mister Furman, including several

0:50:35.719 --> 0:50:38.719
<v Speaker 2>contending that he threatened or beat suspects, but most of

0:50:38.760 --> 0:50:40.960
<v Speaker 2>them were ruled groundless by the department for lack of

0:50:40.960 --> 0:50:43.920
<v Speaker 2>independent witnesses. In nineteen eighty four, he lost a day

0:50:43.960 --> 0:50:46.600
<v Speaker 2>off for seizing a pedestrian's wrists. In nineteen eighty six,

0:50:46.760 --> 0:50:49.239
<v Speaker 2>he received a one day suspension for leaving an improper

0:50:49.280 --> 0:50:51.000
<v Speaker 2>remark on our motorist's windshield.

0:50:52.520 --> 0:50:55.440
<v Speaker 3>So again, and what did he write on someone's witch shield?

0:50:55.520 --> 0:50:59.720
<v Speaker 2>I wish I'd found out. I could not find that anywhere.

0:50:59.719 --> 0:51:03.120
<v Speaker 2>I did look, but I didn't find like that specified anywhere.

0:51:03.520 --> 0:51:07.720
<v Speaker 2>But I you want to keep because when the tapes

0:51:07.760 --> 0:51:09.680
<v Speaker 2>that include him claim and talking about all the crimes

0:51:09.680 --> 0:51:11.760
<v Speaker 2>he pretended to have committed or claimed to have committed,

0:51:11.920 --> 0:51:13.759
<v Speaker 2>the LAPD will be like, well, he was lying. We

0:51:13.800 --> 0:51:16.200
<v Speaker 2>didn't find any evidence, So it's braggadocio. Some of it

0:51:16.239 --> 0:51:20.200
<v Speaker 2>certainly was. But also every time he got accused of

0:51:20.239 --> 0:51:23.000
<v Speaker 2>a violent crime, it usually got ignored because there were

0:51:23.000 --> 0:51:26.600
<v Speaker 2>no independent witnesses, which means, in my head, Mark probably

0:51:26.600 --> 0:51:28.480
<v Speaker 2>just beats someone up and it was his word versus

0:51:28.480 --> 0:51:30.840
<v Speaker 2>that guy. And Mark was a cop, right, yeah, Because

0:51:30.840 --> 0:51:32.799
<v Speaker 2>we do know he did beat some people. He got

0:51:32.840 --> 0:51:35.720
<v Speaker 2>in trouble for it several times, which means I assume

0:51:35.800 --> 0:51:38.239
<v Speaker 2>a lot of these other cases were just Yeah, the

0:51:38.360 --> 0:51:40.920
<v Speaker 2>LAPD was able to ignore it anyway.

0:51:40.920 --> 0:51:43.400
<v Speaker 3>It's not like a cop gets caught beating someone the

0:51:43.560 --> 0:51:46.799
<v Speaker 3>first time. You know once they start fucking people up,

0:51:46.840 --> 0:51:50.280
<v Speaker 3>it's because they've built up, been doing it all over time.

0:51:50.560 --> 0:51:52.319
<v Speaker 3>You know that they know they can get away with it.

0:51:52.400 --> 0:51:55.239
<v Speaker 3>The their bros, their coworkers are going to lie for them.

0:51:55.680 --> 0:51:59.880
<v Speaker 3>They know the departments in internal investigations is never going

0:51:59.920 --> 0:52:03.000
<v Speaker 3>to find them. Yep, exactly. You know they're imus.

0:52:03.120 --> 0:52:05.920
<v Speaker 2>And part of what has given Mark that sense of

0:52:05.960 --> 0:52:09.440
<v Speaker 2>impunity is experience. And a lot of his experience is

0:52:09.480 --> 0:52:13.560
<v Speaker 2>in being bigoted against female LAPD officers. And I want

0:52:13.560 --> 0:52:16.080
<v Speaker 2>to quote again from that New York Times article, the

0:52:16.120 --> 0:52:18.720
<v Speaker 2>most serious blemish on mister Furman's work in the West

0:52:18.719 --> 0:52:21.600
<v Speaker 2>Los Angeles Division was the hostile views he sometimes expressed

0:52:21.600 --> 0:52:24.680
<v Speaker 2>about minorities and women. His performance evaluation in August of

0:52:24.719 --> 0:52:26.719
<v Speaker 2>nineteen eighty five, which was made available to the New

0:52:26.800 --> 0:52:29.080
<v Speaker 2>York Times by a member of the Simpson Defense, noted

0:52:29.280 --> 0:52:31.560
<v Speaker 2>he has outspoken and critical in his perception of the

0:52:31.600 --> 0:52:34.879
<v Speaker 2>department's application of affirmative action. He's been counseled to leave

0:52:34.880 --> 0:52:36.920
<v Speaker 2>his personal feelings at home and to make every effort

0:52:36.920 --> 0:52:42.279
<v Speaker 2>to adhere to the affirmative action guidelines. And that that

0:52:42.400 --> 0:52:45.360
<v Speaker 2>says a little bit right there. And I think the

0:52:45.480 --> 0:52:47.319
<v Speaker 2>first and most important thing for me to note as

0:52:47.320 --> 0:52:48.800
<v Speaker 2>a result of that is that while all this comes

0:52:48.800 --> 0:52:51.359
<v Speaker 2>out during the trial because the oj Simpson defense team

0:52:51.440 --> 0:52:55.080
<v Speaker 2>needs to paint Furman as a particularly toxic racist officer,

0:52:55.600 --> 0:52:58.799
<v Speaker 2>that's not true. Mark is toxic and racist, but his

0:52:58.880 --> 0:53:03.080
<v Speaker 2>racism and sexism are pretty normal among his colleagues. One

0:53:03.200 --> 0:53:06.520
<v Speaker 2>LAPD officer during this period told The Times that when

0:53:06.560 --> 0:53:08.839
<v Speaker 2>he was assigned to West LA, he was warned there

0:53:08.880 --> 0:53:10.800
<v Speaker 2>are a bunch of old white guys who hate blacks

0:53:10.800 --> 0:53:13.399
<v Speaker 2>and women at West LA. That's the department that Mark

0:53:13.480 --> 0:53:16.440
<v Speaker 2>is transferred to. Because he's a racist and a bigot,

0:53:16.760 --> 0:53:18.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, right, and.

0:53:18.640 --> 0:53:21.520
<v Speaker 3>A lot of the eighties. Of course he's a misogynist.

0:53:22.719 --> 0:53:26.480
<v Speaker 3>And this isn't like a defense of Furman. If nobody's confused,

0:53:27.160 --> 0:53:29.640
<v Speaker 3>it would be really weird if there was a cop

0:53:29.680 --> 0:53:31.879
<v Speaker 3>in nineteen eighty five he's like, no, I would love

0:53:31.920 --> 0:53:34.760
<v Speaker 3>to work with all That guy doesn't exist.

0:53:35.440 --> 0:53:37.719
<v Speaker 2>And the reason this is relevant is not that like

0:53:37.840 --> 0:53:39.759
<v Speaker 2>and so that makes it okay that he was a

0:53:39.800 --> 0:53:43.080
<v Speaker 2>normal level of racist for the LAPD kind of It

0:53:43.200 --> 0:53:46.759
<v Speaker 2>just means that, like, don't take the defense seriously, and

0:53:46.840 --> 0:53:50.400
<v Speaker 2>don't take the LAPD seriously when they try to position

0:53:50.520 --> 0:53:54.680
<v Speaker 2>Mark as a particular outlier. Mark's a normal cop and

0:53:54.760 --> 0:53:58.359
<v Speaker 2>a normal detective, and that racism is normal, you know,

0:53:58.640 --> 0:54:01.200
<v Speaker 2>Like that's the thing to take it out of this, Yeah,

0:54:01.400 --> 0:54:03.759
<v Speaker 2>the problem right, Like, no, he is just indicative of

0:54:03.800 --> 0:54:06.680
<v Speaker 2>the LAPD as a whole, and he's not. When I

0:54:06.680 --> 0:54:09.319
<v Speaker 2>say normal, doesn't mean every cop says the same shit,

0:54:09.320 --> 0:54:11.520
<v Speaker 2>because he does stand out sometimes. But what I mean

0:54:11.600 --> 0:54:14.680
<v Speaker 2>is that that even even though he was noted as like, oh,

0:54:14.760 --> 0:54:16.120
<v Speaker 2>Mark is more of a bigot than a lot of

0:54:16.120 --> 0:54:19.359
<v Speaker 2>other he speaks out more. No one noted and that's

0:54:19.440 --> 0:54:21.960
<v Speaker 2>crazy that a cop would say this. Nobody fired him,

0:54:22.200 --> 0:54:24.880
<v Speaker 2>nobody didn't want to work with him. He was like

0:54:25.120 --> 0:54:27.479
<v Speaker 2>maintained his position in the LAPD because it just wasn't

0:54:27.480 --> 0:54:29.919
<v Speaker 2>that weird that he was that kind of guy. Yeah,

0:54:29.960 --> 0:54:34.120
<v Speaker 2>he just stuck out exactly. So that nineteen eighty five

0:54:34.200 --> 0:54:37.680
<v Speaker 2>performance evaluation of Marx continued. He was also counseled by

0:54:37.680 --> 0:54:40.960
<v Speaker 2>this rating Lieutenant and Captain regarding his very strong expression

0:54:41.000 --> 0:54:43.919
<v Speaker 2>of his personal views regarding women and minorities and police work.

0:54:44.160 --> 0:54:46.640
<v Speaker 2>He was not receptive. He stated he felt as an

0:54:46.680 --> 0:54:49.200
<v Speaker 2>American citizen he had a right to express his views.

0:54:50.320 --> 0:54:53.800
<v Speaker 3>Of course, this isn't about me being a racist, Robert,

0:54:53.840 --> 0:54:55.160
<v Speaker 3>It's about my freedom.

0:54:55.239 --> 0:54:58.120
<v Speaker 2>Speaks about my freedom to be a racist. Yeah, exactly.

0:54:59.080 --> 0:54:59.279
<v Speaker 3>Now.

0:54:59.320 --> 0:55:02.120
<v Speaker 2>By way of defe fending Mark. His supervisor from nineteen

0:55:02.160 --> 0:55:05.279
<v Speaker 2>eighty nine to nineteen ninety four, Gary Fullerton, told The

0:55:05.280 --> 0:55:08.080
<v Speaker 2>New York Times that Furman joined a basketball league made

0:55:08.160 --> 0:55:11.319
<v Speaker 2>up in largely of black LAPD officers who had to

0:55:11.320 --> 0:55:14.120
<v Speaker 2>meet up at six thirty am, and was like, who

0:55:14.120 --> 0:55:17.160
<v Speaker 2>would do that if they were racists? The Times talk

0:55:17.239 --> 0:55:19.560
<v Speaker 2>to one of these players, Sergeant Ed Palmer, who is

0:55:19.600 --> 0:55:22.080
<v Speaker 2>a black officer, and told them that he saw no

0:55:22.160 --> 0:55:25.160
<v Speaker 2>signs of racism from Furman in their basketball games. If

0:55:25.200 --> 0:55:27.279
<v Speaker 2>you really hate African Americans, why would you get up

0:55:27.280 --> 0:55:30.200
<v Speaker 2>at five point forty to play basketball with me? And like,

0:55:30.239 --> 0:55:32.480
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, Mamber, racists do all sorts of crazy shit, dude,

0:55:32.600 --> 0:55:36.000
<v Speaker 2>Like you know that, Like you actually do know that, Ed?

0:55:36.360 --> 0:55:39.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, And again these are only dudes who are cops

0:55:39.040 --> 0:55:43.200
<v Speaker 3>as well. Yeah, exactly. This is the classic US versus

0:55:43.200 --> 0:55:46.840
<v Speaker 3>them of American policing, where like, yeah, yes he's a racist,

0:55:46.920 --> 0:55:49.200
<v Speaker 3>but he's totally fine to hang out black people who

0:55:49.280 --> 0:55:50.040
<v Speaker 3>are also.

0:55:49.960 --> 0:55:53.000
<v Speaker 2>Cops, that's right. And all of these accounts are coming

0:55:53.000 --> 0:55:55.399
<v Speaker 2>out during the trial when Mark. When the tri it's

0:55:55.400 --> 0:55:57.480
<v Speaker 2>become clear that the trial hinges largely in whether or

0:55:57.520 --> 0:56:01.680
<v Speaker 2>not Mark's a racist, and the LAPED gets everyone they

0:56:01.719 --> 0:56:03.919
<v Speaker 2>can who's not white in the department to say something

0:56:04.040 --> 0:56:07.719
<v Speaker 2>nice about Mark, and every woman that they can. Now

0:56:08.520 --> 0:56:11.240
<v Speaker 2>that fact leads to a lot of like seesaw moments

0:56:11.280 --> 0:56:14.759
<v Speaker 2>when you're reading about Furman, particularly during the Simpson trial,

0:56:14.760 --> 0:56:17.040
<v Speaker 2>because you'll read like one series of quotes about how

0:56:17.360 --> 0:56:19.840
<v Speaker 2>this is these allegations of awful things he said, and

0:56:19.880 --> 0:56:22.439
<v Speaker 2>then you'll read a very heartfelt quote about someone saying

0:56:22.440 --> 0:56:25.720
<v Speaker 2>something nice about Mark, and this is all a result

0:56:25.719 --> 0:56:28.480
<v Speaker 2>of a coordinated campaign within the LAPD, you know, in

0:56:28.600 --> 0:56:31.440
<v Speaker 2>order to kind of buttress Mark's reputation because he was

0:56:31.480 --> 0:56:33.560
<v Speaker 2>sort of standing in for the department at that point.

0:56:34.000 --> 0:56:36.520
<v Speaker 2>One person who definitely saw the racist side of Mark

0:56:36.800 --> 0:56:39.800
<v Speaker 2>was Laura Hart McKinney, a screenwriter who in the spring

0:56:39.800 --> 0:56:42.440
<v Speaker 2>of nineteen eighty five got interested in writing a movie

0:56:42.480 --> 0:56:46.640
<v Speaker 2>about female cops, so she starts interviewing several real LAPD

0:56:46.800 --> 0:56:51.040
<v Speaker 2>officers for like texture and research purposes. McKinney's notice being

0:56:51.080 --> 0:56:54.400
<v Speaker 2>like a pretty dedicated researcher when she lived as a

0:56:54.440 --> 0:56:56.960
<v Speaker 2>homeless person in Santa Monica for like a week I think,

0:56:57.080 --> 0:57:01.000
<v Speaker 2>to like research a screenplay at one point. And so

0:57:01.040 --> 0:57:03.200
<v Speaker 2>she's like really talks to a lot of people, and

0:57:03.239 --> 0:57:05.239
<v Speaker 2>one of the people she meets is Mark Furman. They

0:57:05.280 --> 0:57:09.240
<v Speaker 2>like meet kind of casually earlier that year and become friends.

0:57:09.280 --> 0:57:11.319
<v Speaker 2>And so she starts sitting out and like taping Mark

0:57:11.680 --> 0:57:14.359
<v Speaker 2>talking about his experiences on the job. And McKinney would

0:57:14.400 --> 0:57:17.560
<v Speaker 2>utimately interview Mark several times between nineteen eighty five and

0:57:17.680 --> 0:57:21.600
<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety four, and depending on who you read, McKinney

0:57:21.720 --> 0:57:24.560
<v Speaker 2>is either again a very diligent screenwriter trying to do

0:57:24.640 --> 0:57:27.240
<v Speaker 2>research to do the best work she can, or basically

0:57:27.320 --> 0:57:31.360
<v Speaker 2>a hack who like can't quite make it. And you know,

0:57:31.640 --> 0:57:35.800
<v Speaker 2>is largely during this period once it comes out that

0:57:35.840 --> 0:57:37.560
<v Speaker 2>Mark's the center of this case, is trying to like

0:57:37.600 --> 0:57:39.840
<v Speaker 2>profit off of it. That's certainly what some people will

0:57:39.920 --> 0:57:42.760
<v Speaker 2>argue about her. I don't think that's really fair. But

0:57:42.960 --> 0:57:45.400
<v Speaker 2>she has all of these tapes with Mark. She winds

0:57:45.480 --> 0:57:47.640
<v Speaker 2>up having hours an hour, I think it's thirteen hours

0:57:47.680 --> 0:57:50.840
<v Speaker 2>of recorded interviews with him, with him just kind of talking.

0:57:51.160 --> 0:57:54.440
<v Speaker 2>And here's how Elizabeth Gleek writing for Time magazine, described

0:57:54.480 --> 0:57:57.920
<v Speaker 2>the contents of these tapes. According to partial transcripts and

0:57:57.960 --> 0:58:00.680
<v Speaker 2>comments by the lawyers in court, Furman descript engaging in

0:58:00.680 --> 0:58:04.280
<v Speaker 2>police misconduct of the most damning kind, beating suspects of

0:58:04.280 --> 0:58:08.400
<v Speaker 2>bloody coercion, and badgering minorities. Contrary to his sworn testimony

0:58:08.480 --> 0:58:10.439
<v Speaker 2>last March that he had not used the in word

0:58:10.480 --> 0:58:13.080
<v Speaker 2>in the past ten years, Furman's blustering talk of the

0:58:13.080 --> 0:58:16.040
<v Speaker 2>tapes is laced with that word and contains other terms

0:58:16.040 --> 0:58:19.280
<v Speaker 2>offensive to African Americans, Hispanics, women, and Jews. In a

0:58:19.360 --> 0:58:21.840
<v Speaker 2>portion of the transcripts obtained by Time, for instance, he

0:58:21.880 --> 0:58:24.880
<v Speaker 2>tells Martha Loriie Diaz, a friend of McKinney's, that women

0:58:24.960 --> 0:58:27.960
<v Speaker 2>cops are ineffectual because they don't do anything. They don't

0:58:27.960 --> 0:58:30.200
<v Speaker 2>go out and initiate contact with some six foot five

0:58:30.240 --> 0:58:33.520
<v Speaker 2>inch inWORD that's been in prison for seven years, pumping weights.

0:58:34.520 --> 0:58:39.560
<v Speaker 2>And God, these tapes are bad and remarkable. That's not

0:58:39.680 --> 0:58:42.680
<v Speaker 2>even the that's the least of the crazy, awful. And

0:58:42.720 --> 0:58:46.240
<v Speaker 2>he knows it's being reed. He knows this is intentional.

0:58:46.560 --> 0:58:49.240
<v Speaker 2>Now he does not when the Simpson case comes up,

0:58:49.400 --> 0:58:52.200
<v Speaker 2>because this has been going on since eighty five, and

0:58:52.360 --> 0:58:54.760
<v Speaker 2>when the fucking Simpson case starts in ninety four, he's

0:58:54.760 --> 0:58:57.000
<v Speaker 2>not thinking, Oh, there's tapes of me with the inWORD

0:58:57.000 --> 0:59:00.000
<v Speaker 2>on him that could become part of this case. He doesn't.

0:59:00.000 --> 0:59:02.919
<v Speaker 2>I don't see anything from McKinny, right, Like why would

0:59:03.040 --> 0:59:05.439
<v Speaker 2>m ckinny because he's not There's never been a case

0:59:05.480 --> 0:59:08.320
<v Speaker 2>that blows up like the OJ Simpson case, right, So

0:59:08.400 --> 0:59:10.680
<v Speaker 2>Mark would have had no way to expect, Well, maybe

0:59:10.720 --> 0:59:13.200
<v Speaker 2>I'll be all over every new station in the country

0:59:13.560 --> 0:59:15.720
<v Speaker 2>and there will be potentially a lot of money in

0:59:15.800 --> 0:59:18.200
<v Speaker 2>having a bunch of incriminating info about me. Right. He

0:59:18.840 --> 0:59:20.960
<v Speaker 2>doesn't think about that at all as he's sitting down

0:59:21.000 --> 0:59:23.040
<v Speaker 2>for these tapes. And I don't think McKinney is either

0:59:23.120 --> 0:59:25.400
<v Speaker 2>to be fair, like she's trying to write a screenplay.

0:59:25.520 --> 0:59:28.280
<v Speaker 2>She's not trying to like, gotcha, Mark Furman. And if

0:59:28.280 --> 0:59:30.000
<v Speaker 2>you want a critiquer for something, it's the fact she's

0:59:30.000 --> 0:59:32.080
<v Speaker 2>listening to this guy say this awful shit. But the

0:59:32.120 --> 0:59:35.000
<v Speaker 2>crimes he's committed inside the lapd and it's just like

0:59:35.200 --> 0:59:38.280
<v Speaker 2>cool stuff from a screenplay.

0:59:38.840 --> 0:59:40.800
<v Speaker 3>This will be very useful for me, thank you.

0:59:41.880 --> 0:59:43.720
<v Speaker 2>Like if I were to sit down with an act

0:59:43.720 --> 0:59:46.680
<v Speaker 2>of laped detective who were to admit to me blithely

0:59:46.760 --> 0:59:48.840
<v Speaker 2>about all of the crimes and torture that he commits,

0:59:49.160 --> 0:59:50.720
<v Speaker 2>I would try to get him imprisoned.

0:59:51.320 --> 0:59:53.760
<v Speaker 3>Like that would be my as a journalists, Like, that's

0:59:53.760 --> 0:59:56.960
<v Speaker 3>what I do. I love to casually sit down and

0:59:57.000 --> 1:00:00.440
<v Speaker 3>create the LAPD version of an act of kill and

1:00:00.480 --> 1:00:01.040
<v Speaker 3>then just.

1:00:00.920 --> 1:00:04.480
<v Speaker 2>Raise it from drama. Weird, But it is why I

1:00:04.560 --> 1:00:06.360
<v Speaker 2>kind of wind up being really good for Ojo Simpson.

1:00:06.640 --> 1:00:10.840
<v Speaker 2>That McKinny has these tapes, and once these tapes in

1:00:10.840 --> 1:00:13.800
<v Speaker 2>the audio in them comes out, Mark's basic audio argument

1:00:13.840 --> 1:00:16.160
<v Speaker 2>and defense of himself is going to be that, like, well,

1:00:16.720 --> 1:00:18.960
<v Speaker 2>none of this was I had lied in the tapes.

1:00:19.000 --> 1:00:21.000
<v Speaker 2>I was putting on a show a character that's not

1:00:21.040 --> 1:00:23.880
<v Speaker 2>really me. I was trying to impress this outsider, and

1:00:23.920 --> 1:00:25.400
<v Speaker 2>so none of it was true. I just wanted to

1:00:25.400 --> 1:00:27.600
<v Speaker 2>sound cool so that her script would be cool, right,

1:00:27.760 --> 1:00:29.360
<v Speaker 2>I was trying to give her what she needed to

1:00:29.400 --> 1:00:33.000
<v Speaker 2>make an entertaining movie. Some of that is true. Mark

1:00:33.120 --> 1:00:37.120
<v Speaker 2>is definitely judging things up to sound more exciting because

1:00:37.160 --> 1:00:39.440
<v Speaker 2>he thinks maybe it'll wind up in a movie, right,

1:00:39.520 --> 1:00:42.560
<v Speaker 2>Like that's absolutely a part of what's going on. I

1:00:42.600 --> 1:00:45.640
<v Speaker 2>do buy that and yeah, and it's not hard to buy.

1:00:45.640 --> 1:00:48.680
<v Speaker 2>And Mark tells several specific stories of specific incidents of

1:00:48.760 --> 1:00:52.360
<v Speaker 2>violence and racism that can't be documented, and several more

1:00:52.400 --> 1:00:54.720
<v Speaker 2>that have been documented as having not happened, that like,

1:00:54.800 --> 1:00:57.400
<v Speaker 2>we know this didn't happen. We know this didn't happen,

1:00:57.440 --> 1:00:59.240
<v Speaker 2>and there's a bunch more where it's like we don't

1:00:59.240 --> 1:01:01.000
<v Speaker 2>know if it happened or not. There's no evidence one

1:01:01.000 --> 1:01:05.120
<v Speaker 2>way or the other. Right, However, within kind of that

1:01:05.200 --> 1:01:08.000
<v Speaker 2>mix of things that definitely didn't happen and that we

1:01:08.040 --> 1:01:10.280
<v Speaker 2>can't prove happened, there are some things that we know

1:01:10.440 --> 1:01:12.640
<v Speaker 2>happened that there's outside evidence of them that are proven

1:01:12.680 --> 1:01:15.200
<v Speaker 2>to have happened. And probably the most important thing that

1:01:15.240 --> 1:01:18.000
<v Speaker 2>we know was real that Mark talked about was a

1:01:18.040 --> 1:01:21.440
<v Speaker 2>club that he started inside the Los Angeles Police Department

1:01:21.840 --> 1:01:25.280
<v Speaker 2>called Men Against Women, And we will talk about that

1:01:25.880 --> 1:01:28.560
<v Speaker 2>the theoj Simpson trial in part two.

1:01:28.880 --> 1:01:35.960
<v Speaker 3>How you doing, Joe? This is like some Jophie. This

1:01:36.080 --> 1:01:38.800
<v Speaker 3>is like the Little Rascals. He man woman hater club

1:01:38.840 --> 1:01:40.760
<v Speaker 3>for cops. It is it is. He makes the human

1:01:40.840 --> 1:01:42.920
<v Speaker 3>woman hater club for cops. He does do that. He's

1:01:42.960 --> 1:01:47.600
<v Speaker 3>the Alfalfa of the lapd I so much. Thank you.

1:01:48.040 --> 1:01:49.160
<v Speaker 3>It's it's really funny.

1:01:49.960 --> 1:01:52.520
<v Speaker 2>I mean it's not like the horrible things that he does,

1:01:52.560 --> 1:01:55.880
<v Speaker 2>but it's like funny and like a cosmic sense, you know, sure,

1:01:56.240 --> 1:01:58.480
<v Speaker 2>or if you're just a fan of the little rascals.

1:01:58.440 --> 1:02:02.160
<v Speaker 3>It's funny because it's fucking pathetic, you know, like everything

1:02:02.200 --> 1:02:04.160
<v Speaker 3>about this man is so pathetic.

1:02:05.160 --> 1:02:09.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's it's that's the thing, right, And and I

1:02:09.560 --> 1:02:11.920
<v Speaker 2>I this is that was the surprise to me as

1:02:12.000 --> 1:02:13.560
<v Speaker 2>like growing up as a young man who also grew

1:02:13.600 --> 1:02:15.520
<v Speaker 2>up like with a bunch of different like misogynistic and

1:02:15.840 --> 1:02:19.080
<v Speaker 2>sexist beliefs, but I fundamentally missed the whole like, Oh,

1:02:19.120 --> 1:02:21.760
<v Speaker 2>we're supposed to like hate women. I thought you, like,

1:02:21.800 --> 1:02:25.360
<v Speaker 2>what did to have like like a wife or a girl? Like?

1:02:25.400 --> 1:02:27.440
<v Speaker 2>I thought like that that was like the goal was

1:02:27.480 --> 1:02:31.320
<v Speaker 2>to like, h like have women in your life as

1:02:31.320 --> 1:02:33.240
<v Speaker 2>opposed to like people like Mark where it's like, oh,

1:02:33.320 --> 1:02:35.680
<v Speaker 2>is the goal to like not ever have any contact

1:02:35.720 --> 1:02:38.120
<v Speaker 2>with them? Like what is what is what is masculinity?

1:02:38.440 --> 1:02:41.000
<v Speaker 2>Like do you want to be liked by women or

1:02:41.040 --> 1:02:42.919
<v Speaker 2>do you want to hide from them? Like I don't

1:02:43.000 --> 1:02:44.280
<v Speaker 2>understand which we're supposed to do.

1:02:45.240 --> 1:02:47.920
<v Speaker 3>I was I was raised by Like my dad was

1:02:47.960 --> 1:02:51.800
<v Speaker 3>a pretty misogynistic piece of shit, and that all kind

1:02:51.800 --> 1:02:53.680
<v Speaker 3>of confused me as well, because he kind of fell

1:02:53.680 --> 1:02:56.560
<v Speaker 3>into the furmin kind of things. He was also a racist,

1:02:56.800 --> 1:03:00.800
<v Speaker 3>and it always confused me because I was like, I

1:03:00.920 --> 1:03:05.240
<v Speaker 3>thought that you wanted to attract women, right, and I'm

1:03:05.320 --> 1:03:10.680
<v Speaker 3>like ten, and now you're leading me down a path

1:03:11.160 --> 1:03:13.720
<v Speaker 3>where you're going to be Mark Furman, which is divorced,

1:03:13.840 --> 1:03:15.640
<v Speaker 3>living with the shitty cop for a roommate.

1:03:16.000 --> 1:03:18.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we don't want to spend any time around girls.

1:03:18.120 --> 1:03:20.520
<v Speaker 2>I thought the goal was to be liked by them,

1:03:20.800 --> 1:03:24.520
<v Speaker 2>And but was I wrong? Like, obviously that's not shouldn't

1:03:24.520 --> 1:03:27.360
<v Speaker 2>be your life goal. But like as a kid, realize like, oh,

1:03:27.440 --> 1:03:30.080
<v Speaker 2>a lot of like guys just like hate being around women.

1:03:30.160 --> 1:03:32.600
<v Speaker 2>I didn't realize that. I thought, like, that doesn't make

1:03:32.640 --> 1:03:37.640
<v Speaker 2>any sense. Yeah, this is We're gonna have some fun

1:03:37.680 --> 1:03:41.680
<v Speaker 2>talks about h gender politics in the Los Angeles Police Department.

1:03:41.880 --> 1:03:49.000
<v Speaker 2>But first let's talk about gender politics and Joe Casabian's bibliography. Sorry, Joe,

1:03:49.920 --> 1:03:53.560
<v Speaker 2>way to lead to your books, but books.

1:03:53.080 --> 1:03:55.200
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, I'm the host of the Lines Up by

1:03:55.280 --> 1:03:58.120
<v Speaker 3>Donkeys podcast. We talked about military history, which I had

1:03:58.120 --> 1:04:01.919
<v Speaker 3>to make things interesting and fun. And I am the

1:04:02.000 --> 1:04:04.880
<v Speaker 3>author of the book The Highlands Burn, which is a

1:04:05.000 --> 1:04:09.000
<v Speaker 3>military gunpowder fantasy novel, and you can get it wherever

1:04:09.000 --> 1:04:13.040
<v Speaker 3>it does. You get your books ebook, audiobook, read by me, paperback,

1:04:14.920 --> 1:04:18.400
<v Speaker 3>stoned tablet, whichever you'd like. Excellent.

1:04:18.600 --> 1:04:22.000
<v Speaker 2>Well, I personally approve of the fact that you have

1:04:22.080 --> 1:04:27.200
<v Speaker 2>stone tablet publications of your book, Joe, that's a good idea.

1:04:27.280 --> 1:04:29.680
<v Speaker 2>All of my books are about to be rereleased in

1:04:29.720 --> 1:04:31.960
<v Speaker 2>the form of an old man telling the story around

1:04:31.960 --> 1:04:34.960
<v Speaker 2>a fire, Let's go, which yeah, yeah, no, yeah, that's

1:04:35.040 --> 1:04:37.080
<v Speaker 2>that's always That's a real proud moment in any author's

1:04:37.160 --> 1:04:40.360
<v Speaker 2>life when you get your old band around a fire edition. Anyway,

1:04:40.400 --> 1:04:43.680
<v Speaker 2>the episodes over was probably Dead by Joe's Books.

1:04:43.680 --> 1:04:44.720
<v Speaker 3>By Joe's Books.

1:04:48.320 --> 1:04:50.920
<v Speaker 1>Behind the Bastard is a production of cool Zone Media.

1:04:51.040 --> 1:04:53.720
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1:04:53.800 --> 1:04:56.960
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1:04:57.000 --> 1:05:00.840
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1:05:13.840 --> 1:05:15.600
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1:05:16.160 --> 1:05:19.280
<v Speaker 1>We love about forty percent of you, statistically speaking,