WEBVTT - How a Battery-Powered Stove Could Electrify America 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:21.996 Pushkin. There's two ways in. There's two ways in, and 0:00:21.996 --> 0:00:25.436 I'll let you choose. One way in is pizza and tokyo. 0:00:25.916 --> 0:00:29.436 The other way you got, what's the second one? What's 0:00:29.436 --> 0:00:29.956 the second one? 0:00:30.036 --> 0:00:33.596 The second one is the more uh thinky, the more 0:00:33.596 --> 0:00:37.036 intellectual way in, which is like electrification is great, but 0:00:37.156 --> 0:00:40.436 like the wire going into my house isn't big enough 0:00:40.476 --> 0:00:42.836 basically to get all the electricity into my house that 0:00:42.876 --> 0:00:43.116 I need. 0:00:43.276 --> 0:00:49.796 Let's start with pizza. 0:00:50.476 --> 0:00:52.996 I'm Jacob Goldstein and this is What's Your Problem, the 0:00:53.036 --> 0:00:55.156 show where I talk to people who are trying to 0:00:55.236 --> 0:00:59.716 make technological progress. My guest today is Sam Demico. He's 0:00:59.756 --> 0:01:02.836 the founder and CEO of Impulse Labs, which is a 0:01:02.836 --> 0:01:07.556 company that makes induction stoves. Sam's problem is this, how 0:01:07.596 --> 0:01:10.636 do you build a really good DRIC cook top that 0:01:10.716 --> 0:01:14.716 people can install without having to rewire their house, and that, 0:01:14.956 --> 0:01:18.516 by the way, could eventually help transform the way electric 0:01:18.596 --> 0:01:23.356 power works in America. It's an ambitious project, ambitious stove, 0:01:24.036 --> 0:01:26.636 and it goes back to this moment when Sam ordered 0:01:26.676 --> 0:01:29.516 a pizza. He was working for Facebook at the time, 0:01:29.796 --> 0:01:33.076 helping to build their Oculus VR headset, and he was 0:01:33.116 --> 0:01:39.916 at a conference in Tokyo. What neighborhood in Tokyo did 0:01:39.916 --> 0:01:40.596 you have the pizza? 0:01:40.716 --> 0:01:44.556 I think it was. I think it was near Akasaka station. 0:01:44.796 --> 0:01:46.396 It's like, savoid pizza. 0:01:46.396 --> 0:01:48.436 Okay, so tell me about the pizza. 0:01:48.676 --> 0:01:49.996 I order my pizza and I get it back in 0:01:49.996 --> 0:01:52.516 like forty five seconds or like a minute or something insane. 0:01:52.836 --> 0:01:54.676 I probably say a different number of different people. But 0:01:54.716 --> 0:02:00.036 it was fast enough and absolutely fantastic. Then Krispy a 0:02:00.076 --> 0:02:04.716 lot of garlic, super super good, like master of the 0:02:04.716 --> 0:02:06.516 craft type situation. So I get this, and I'm like, 0:02:06.996 --> 0:02:10.156 I want to do this at home, and I don't 0:02:10.196 --> 0:02:12.236 want to have to have a giant brick oven in 0:02:12.236 --> 0:02:16.516 my backyard. And so I was like, it would be 0:02:16.516 --> 0:02:19.156 really sweet if you could do this with electrical electricity. 0:02:20.476 --> 0:02:23.316 And how are they doing it? What's going on? 0:02:23.836 --> 0:02:27.036 So this is a classic like how normal brick oven 0:02:27.036 --> 0:02:29.636 pizzas make, and I was like, I want to replicate 0:02:29.796 --> 0:02:32.876 that like an old school brick oven. The amount of 0:02:32.876 --> 0:02:35.196 infrared power that thing dumps onto the pizza because the 0:02:35.196 --> 0:02:39.676 fire reflects off of a curved bowl above the of 0:02:39.716 --> 0:02:42.876 the pizza. It okay, I'm like, could I just do 0:02:42.956 --> 0:02:44.916 this with halogen light bulbs? And a lot of power. 0:02:45.436 --> 0:02:48.116 Could a pizza oven that makes a pizza of that 0:02:48.196 --> 0:02:53.516 quality be an electronic device? And I was like, I 0:02:53.676 --> 0:02:56.436 let's figure this out. And I realized that the power 0:02:56.476 --> 0:02:59.836 density of like the amount of infrared and the heating 0:02:59.876 --> 0:03:03.476 you need to get that onto the pizza, you were 0:03:03.476 --> 0:03:05.716 going to need more than a normal one twenty volt plug. 0:03:05.796 --> 0:03:09.676 So you're saying that if you you figured out how 0:03:09.756 --> 0:03:12.636 much power you would need to make a pizza of 0:03:12.636 --> 0:03:15.956 them that could get that hot from electricity. Yeah, and 0:03:16.036 --> 0:03:18.956 you realize that you couldn't build a device that you 0:03:18.996 --> 0:03:21.276 could just plug into the wall because it would need 0:03:21.316 --> 0:03:24.436 too much power. That's the fundamental constraint. 0:03:24.116 --> 0:03:28.476 Of bingo bingo exactly. I was like, okay, well, how 0:03:28.476 --> 0:03:31.036 often are you using this thing? And also how often 0:03:31.076 --> 0:03:33.556 is it even if you're like cranking out pizzas, like 0:03:33.836 --> 0:03:36.156 you're gonna be like prepping the next pizza, Like, there's 0:03:36.156 --> 0:03:39.756 time in between for say a battery to recharge, uh huh, 0:03:39.796 --> 0:03:42.436 in between the various pizza making sessions. 0:03:42.636 --> 0:03:42.756 Right. 0:03:43.156 --> 0:03:44.596 So I went and just looked at this and I 0:03:44.676 --> 0:03:46.836 was like, Okay. I sized the battery pack and I'm like, okay, 0:03:47.476 --> 0:03:50.836 this is getting large. It's not like it's not it's 0:03:50.876 --> 0:03:53.996 not like laptop battery size. It's more like it's getting 0:03:53.996 --> 0:03:56.916 into like those little stationary like batteries you use for 0:03:56.916 --> 0:03:59.036 camping or something like that. It was getting into that. 0:03:59.116 --> 0:04:00.316 It was getting into that a lot. 0:04:00.396 --> 0:04:03.516 So you realize you're gonna need a lot of battery power. 0:04:03.836 --> 0:04:06.116 But what I just want to pause before we get 0:04:06.116 --> 0:04:08.316 into like how big were the battery, because the idea 0:04:08.316 --> 0:04:12.036 of the battery is I feel like at a certain level, 0:04:12.036 --> 0:04:13.676 it's why I want to talk to you, right Otherwise, yeah, 0:04:13.636 --> 0:04:17.316 the stoves, like the battery is a great, big, powerful 0:04:17.316 --> 0:04:20.036 idea with lots of ramifications. Right, And so the first 0:04:20.476 --> 0:04:24.356 the first, the first thing, the first reason you think 0:04:24.396 --> 0:04:29.556 of the battery is you realize, oh, you can use 0:04:29.596 --> 0:04:32.596 the regular outlet, just the same outlet that whatever I 0:04:32.676 --> 0:04:35.436 charge my phone on. You can use for like a 0:04:35.636 --> 0:04:38.876 super powerful, super hot stove if you add a battery, 0:04:38.876 --> 0:04:42.596 because the battery can just draw power all day when 0:04:42.636 --> 0:04:44.196 the stove is just sitting there, and then when you 0:04:44.236 --> 0:04:46.956 go to turn on the stove, it can discharge a 0:04:47.036 --> 0:04:49.476 ton of energy all at once, more than you could 0:04:49.476 --> 0:04:51.796 get out of the outlet. Right, Like that is that's 0:04:51.916 --> 0:04:55.556 upside insight because we don't think of home appliances that way, right. 0:04:55.796 --> 0:04:58.036 And it's always and your appliance is always plugged in. 0:04:58.116 --> 0:05:00.076 Why would you put a battery in something that is 0:05:00.116 --> 0:05:03.156 always plugged in? Yeah, which is kind of the like 0:05:03.356 --> 0:05:05.596 weird yeah right that you have to make yeah. 0:05:05.516 --> 0:05:07.996 Right, because right right? Why not just get it enough 0:05:08.036 --> 0:05:09.476 power whenever you want on it? 0:05:09.876 --> 0:05:12.476 Bingo? And then I was like, Okay, this is a 0:05:12.476 --> 0:05:16.676 good idea. Let's pressure test what would actually cause a 0:05:16.796 --> 0:05:21.596 VC to want to invest in this. And I then 0:05:21.716 --> 0:05:25.156 kind of started fanning out beyond just me being like 0:05:25.196 --> 0:05:28.076 I want my pizza really fast and in high quality. 0:05:28.516 --> 0:05:30.596 And by the way, this pizza in my head is 0:05:30.636 --> 0:05:33.396 like glistening in its pizza way. I'm like this, this 0:05:33.476 --> 0:05:35.756 is this is like I want this pizza. But you 0:05:35.836 --> 0:05:38.276 have to think about, hey, is this a platform? Is 0:05:38.316 --> 0:05:40.876 there a wedge into a broader market? What's the big 0:05:40.876 --> 0:05:45.196 story here? And so and so what I realized was like, 0:05:45.356 --> 0:05:48.236 let's look at other appliances what the story is. And 0:05:48.636 --> 0:05:51.836 I I then thought through kind of the implications and 0:05:51.836 --> 0:05:53.876 I was like, Okay, for the bigger appliances, say the 0:05:53.876 --> 0:05:56.796 ones that normally plug in with like a two forty 0:05:56.796 --> 0:06:00.396 evolt plug like the bigger one, or like a dryer, 0:06:01.036 --> 0:06:03.476 like a stovetop and of it like a wall of it, 0:06:03.716 --> 0:06:07.756 or a range product or a hot water heater, and 0:06:09.236 --> 0:06:11.276 how big is the battery going to be in those cases? 0:06:11.276 --> 0:06:13.156 And I kind of did the math and sizing, and 0:06:13.156 --> 0:06:15.476 I was like, oh, it's going to be like north 0:06:15.516 --> 0:06:17.956 of two kilo what hours at least? So I'll give 0:06:17.956 --> 0:06:20.036 you the scaling factor on this is like is like 0:06:20.756 --> 0:06:23.436 you you could very quickly take like four, three or 0:06:23.436 --> 0:06:25.556 four major appliances because you think of all the big 0:06:25.556 --> 0:06:29.156 boxes you've got in your house. Times a couple of 0:06:29.196 --> 0:06:31.836 KILLO on hours batteries, you get about the same amount 0:06:31.836 --> 0:06:33.276 of storage as a Tesla power wall. 0:06:34.316 --> 0:06:36.716 A Tesla powerwall being the like you can live off 0:06:36.756 --> 0:06:39.196 the grid you put your panels on your roof, and 0:06:39.236 --> 0:06:42.516 a Tesla powerwall. So you're basically saying you can sort 0:06:42.556 --> 0:06:45.876 of distribute a like live off the grid amount of 0:06:45.876 --> 0:06:48.956 batteries if you could put a battery on the stove 0:06:49.196 --> 0:06:51.036 and the fridge and the hot water heater. 0:06:51.636 --> 0:06:54.476 Yes, yes, exactly. Then I looked at what was happening 0:06:54.516 --> 0:06:56.996 in the stationary storage battery industry and it was like 0:06:57.036 --> 0:07:00.436 it was all focusing on these centralized battery systems like 0:07:00.476 --> 0:07:04.676 a battery wall battery wall type product. They weren't addressing 0:07:04.836 --> 0:07:08.756 all the wiring in your house. And also, like appliances, 0:07:08.796 --> 0:07:10.796 basically they haven't seen a lot of innovation in like 0:07:10.876 --> 0:07:13.596 fifty years or so. It's like induction stoves are fifty 0:07:13.676 --> 0:07:16.476 years old for reference, so's it's like, this is an 0:07:16.516 --> 0:07:21.756 opportunity to generationally advance the appliance industry and then also 0:07:21.876 --> 0:07:24.756 wedge like let's call it ten plus kill a lot 0:07:24.756 --> 0:07:29.116 of hours of batteries into every home in America. That 0:07:29.276 --> 0:07:32.036 is really interesting, right, Like that is a bigger story 0:07:32.116 --> 0:07:34.116 than your pizza is awesome. 0:07:34.476 --> 0:07:36.876 So there's a few balls in the air right now, 0:07:37.276 --> 0:07:42.036 how do you land on starting with an induction stove? 0:07:42.796 --> 0:07:46.436 So we thought of doing maybe tabletop devices first because 0:07:46.436 --> 0:07:47.636 they'd be easier. 0:07:47.556 --> 0:07:48.796 But I don't know what that means. 0:07:48.796 --> 0:07:51.516 Tabletop device would be like you could imagine the pizza 0:07:51.516 --> 0:07:53.916 oven being an ambitious one, but you could think of 0:07:53.996 --> 0:07:56.876 like there's other product ideas we've been peddling around. It's 0:07:56.876 --> 0:08:01.476 like kettle just like that. Yeah, ok, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:08:01.676 --> 0:08:03.716 you could do something. There's a lot of things that 0:08:03.996 --> 0:08:06.316 have high peak power demands that are interesting. 0:08:06.716 --> 0:08:08.396 We were like, we got an air fryer and it 0:08:08.476 --> 0:08:11.196 keeps blowing out the circuit breaker. We can't run the 0:08:11.196 --> 0:08:13.276 air fryer and the microwave at the same time. Give 0:08:13.276 --> 0:08:13.836 me a battery. 0:08:14.316 --> 0:08:16.396 I know, I will know. No announcements on this podcast 0:08:16.476 --> 0:08:17.996 for product announcements. 0:08:19.556 --> 0:08:22.996 Okay, but those feel sort of small ball compared to 0:08:23.116 --> 0:08:25.596 a stovetop right, Like an air fryer is like kind 0:08:25.636 --> 0:08:28.556 of a luxury weirdo item, whereas everybody has a stove. 0:08:29.116 --> 0:08:30.836 I mean, is that part of why you land on 0:08:30.876 --> 0:08:31.236 a stove. 0:08:31.596 --> 0:08:35.156 There's there's two reasons. One is there has not been 0:08:35.316 --> 0:08:37.796 there's actually a lot of meat on the bone where 0:08:37.836 --> 0:08:39.876 you could say, like if I make your hot water 0:08:39.916 --> 0:08:42.596 heater like three times more powerful, you can't make the 0:08:42.596 --> 0:08:43.436 water three times hotter. 0:08:43.556 --> 0:08:46.076 Most people wouldn't notice the difference if their water heater. 0:08:46.356 --> 0:08:49.196 So this is this is the key insight is gas 0:08:49.196 --> 0:08:52.076 stoves are and like the knobs and all that stuff, 0:08:52.236 --> 0:08:57.396 the ui ux of the stove is the fuel source. 0:08:57.836 --> 0:08:59.556 And so just to be clear, when you say you 0:08:59.556 --> 0:09:02.276 mean the user interface user experience, like when you turn 0:09:02.316 --> 0:09:04.596 on a gas stove, you can see the gas flame. 0:09:04.636 --> 0:09:06.836 That's what you can It's the place in your house 0:09:06.836 --> 0:09:09.956 where you actually see, like, oh, I am burning fossil 0:09:09.996 --> 0:09:11.916 fuel in order to cook spaghetti. 0:09:12.356 --> 0:09:15.316 Gas stoves are the one situation where if you want 0:09:15.356 --> 0:09:17.716 to make a fossil fuel free home or like electrify 0:09:17.796 --> 0:09:21.196 the home completely, you would be That is the one 0:09:22.156 --> 0:09:25.396 mental block and like actual like performance block where people 0:09:25.396 --> 0:09:27.396 are like, well, I like my gas stove and I 0:09:27.396 --> 0:09:28.196 can't get rid of it. 0:09:28.356 --> 0:09:31.036 Nobody's going to be like I love my gas dryer 0:09:31.196 --> 0:09:32.476 or I love my gas water. 0:09:33.676 --> 0:09:36.116 Who cares? Yeah, yeah, No, that's it. That's a cost thing. 0:09:36.156 --> 0:09:38.356 That's like a that's like a maybe maybe my gas 0:09:38.396 --> 0:09:41.876 company's expensive, maybe is cheap. You'll pe people. 0:09:41.676 --> 0:09:44.036 Don't have an attachment to a gas water heater the 0:09:44.076 --> 0:09:46.956 way they have an attachment to a gas stove. Yes, exactly, 0:09:47.116 --> 0:09:48.916 I buy that, But that seems like a reason you 0:09:48.956 --> 0:09:52.436 wouldn't want to do and stove as your first one. 0:09:52.476 --> 0:09:54.436 That seems to make it harder, not easier. 0:09:54.956 --> 0:09:58.116 So that's one piece. But then the second piece was 0:09:59.156 --> 0:10:01.996 the battery. Lets us beat the pants off of anything else. 0:10:01.796 --> 0:10:03.796 In the market in terms of performance. 0:10:03.796 --> 0:10:05.676 Performance In terms of performance, it. 0:10:05.636 --> 0:10:07.596 Goes back to the amazing pizza oven. 0:10:07.836 --> 0:10:09.316 Yes, it goes back to the amazing piece of a 0:10:09.356 --> 0:10:11.716 thing where it's like and so thinking through this was 0:10:12.356 --> 0:10:14.756 where is there like a wedge where like you have 0:10:14.836 --> 0:10:17.796 to beat fossil fuels by a resolutely huge amount to 0:10:17.836 --> 0:10:22.316 displace it. So that's why it has happened. Fully, we 0:10:22.436 --> 0:10:26.476 can do it. And it's also an installed appliance. So 0:10:26.516 --> 0:10:28.596 the and this is the piece that I'm going to 0:10:28.636 --> 0:10:31.356 get it next. So the battery can be wired in 0:10:31.396 --> 0:10:34.036 a way where it can support the grid by charging 0:10:34.036 --> 0:10:38.716 and discharging into the house, not just like the appliance 0:10:38.756 --> 0:10:40.396 having a boost from the battery basically. 0:10:40.636 --> 0:10:44.316 So there's sort of two different ideas. There two reasons 0:10:44.356 --> 0:10:47.236 you wanted to do the stove right. So one the 0:10:47.276 --> 0:10:50.996 first one you said, is because it can you can 0:10:51.156 --> 0:10:54.356 use the battery to make a better electric stove than 0:10:54.436 --> 0:10:56.316 exists now and to make a stove that is better 0:10:56.356 --> 0:10:58.636 than any gas stove that exists now. Yes, and that 0:10:59.276 --> 0:11:03.676 improvement is meaningful to the typical homeown or the typical 0:11:03.716 --> 0:11:06.556 human being in a way that a better water heater 0:11:06.756 --> 0:11:08.156 who cares. 0:11:08.036 --> 0:11:10.916 Yeah, and like better water hitter may save you money, 0:11:11.036 --> 0:11:12.676 like say you go to a heat pump water hitter. 0:11:12.996 --> 0:11:15.316 It's like, oh, my energy bill is two to three 0:11:15.356 --> 0:11:18.636 and a half times less, yeah, versus a resistant one. Cool, 0:11:19.036 --> 0:11:21.876 but in our case, it's like your water literally boils 0:11:22.076 --> 0:11:23.836 ten times faster than your gastove. 0:11:26.676 --> 0:11:28.316 I want to talk about that. Let's we'll get back 0:11:28.356 --> 0:11:30.276 to the wiring thing and the battery and that your 0:11:30.316 --> 0:11:32.316 battery can then like go back into the grid. Like 0:11:33.036 --> 0:11:35.716 I like all that. It's very interesting. It's a big 0:11:35.756 --> 0:11:37.076 idea there. I want to talk about it, but I 0:11:37.076 --> 0:11:40.796 want to wait a minute to talk about that. And 0:11:40.836 --> 0:11:43.716 I want to just talk about induction stoves, yeah, for 0:11:44.076 --> 0:11:49.276 a minute in a few ways. Right, So one, I 0:11:49.276 --> 0:11:53.356 mean just simply just like kind of basic A basic 0:11:53.396 --> 0:11:56.156 thing is like there's different kinds of electric stoves. Right, 0:11:56.196 --> 0:11:59.116 there's the kind like I had as a child in 0:11:59.156 --> 0:12:02.676 the nineteen eighties with the coil that gets orange, right, 0:12:03.036 --> 0:12:06.356 And then there's the kind that you know people had 0:12:06.396 --> 0:12:09.476 as a child in the whatever two thousands, where it's 0:12:09.516 --> 0:12:12.436 a flat piece of glass and the little circle gets 0:12:12.516 --> 0:12:13.356 red right. 0:12:13.556 --> 0:12:13.676 Ye. 0:12:13.836 --> 0:12:16.836 And to be clear, neither of those is an induction stove. 0:12:16.956 --> 0:12:18.356 They are both terrible as well. 0:12:18.596 --> 0:12:20.516 They are terrible, right, So I grew up with that 0:12:21.156 --> 0:12:24.036 and now I have gas, and I'm like, I like 0:12:24.116 --> 0:12:26.316 gas because you know the other one. You turn it 0:12:26.356 --> 0:12:28.076 on and it takes forever to get hot, and then 0:12:28.116 --> 0:12:31.596 you turn it off and it's still hot, which, like 0:12:30.956 --> 0:12:33.996 you like pan really bad. Yeah, if you've got a 0:12:34.036 --> 0:12:35.716 bunch of things on the stove, there's nowhere to put 0:12:35.716 --> 0:12:37.516 it and gas, Like, you turn it on and you 0:12:37.516 --> 0:12:39.116 can see it, and you turn it off and like 0:12:39.516 --> 0:12:43.036 any pan will work on it. You don't need special pans. 0:12:43.636 --> 0:12:47.756 You can turn the knob turn, does it you see 0:12:47.756 --> 0:12:50.956 the flame? Like at a certain non rational level, I'm 0:12:51.036 --> 0:12:53.996 wary of induction stoves. First of all, tell me why 0:12:53.996 --> 0:12:55.356 I'm wary of induction stoves. 0:12:55.636 --> 0:12:58.636 Yeah, so I think it's. I think it's because the 0:12:58.796 --> 0:13:01.436 entire history of electric stoves has been disappointing. The first 0:13:01.436 --> 0:13:03.796 generation of with the coils that is like a it's 0:13:03.796 --> 0:13:07.476 like a heating ailment that conducts into the pan basically, 0:13:07.596 --> 0:13:11.116 and the knob controls that. It takes like minutes for 0:13:11.196 --> 0:13:14.556 that to change its temperature. So the next gen is 0:13:14.716 --> 0:13:18.476 they're like, let's just basically put a light bulb underneath. 0:13:18.316 --> 0:13:20.516 So that's the flat piece of glass with the red 0:13:20.556 --> 0:13:23.516 circle under it. That is also like confusing and kind 0:13:23.516 --> 0:13:24.916 of slow and bad. 0:13:25.396 --> 0:13:28.236 Yes, it's it's terrible, it's bad. And then and then 0:13:28.236 --> 0:13:32.436 induction is this technology that directly heats the pan with 0:13:32.516 --> 0:13:35.196 magnetic fields. And so this is one where it's like 0:13:35.236 --> 0:13:38.756 there's nothing glowing red, there's nothing actually getting hot. 0:13:38.596 --> 0:13:42.396 Besides stove itself is not getting hot on an induction stone. 0:13:42.396 --> 0:13:44.796 And we always get asked this question from people being 0:13:44.836 --> 0:13:47.156 like putting a battery in a stove, isn't the stove 0:13:47.196 --> 0:13:48.956 really hot? And I'm like, the stove is not hot, 0:13:48.996 --> 0:13:52.796 the pan is hot. You form a large electric current 0:13:53.196 --> 0:13:56.436 in the base of the pan. The pan is made 0:13:56.436 --> 0:13:59.276 of steel, not like copper, so it's kind of poor 0:13:59.436 --> 0:14:05.196 in terms of electrical conductivity, so it doesn't it impedes 0:14:05.276 --> 0:14:07.356 the flow of electricity. 0:14:06.836 --> 0:14:11.036 And that generates heat to let the electricity flow through it. 0:14:11.076 --> 0:14:14.436 And that resistance is what creates heat in the pan. 0:14:14.916 --> 0:14:16.196 In the pan, yes, huh. 0:14:16.796 --> 0:14:19.996 What kind of pans work and what kind of pants 0:14:20.076 --> 0:14:21.476 don't work on an induction. 0:14:21.196 --> 0:14:25.356 So you can make all of them work. Most pans work. 0:14:25.676 --> 0:14:30.316 There are two pans that generally have issues unless they 0:14:30.316 --> 0:14:33.156 have a laminated iron layer in them, and those are 0:14:33.156 --> 0:14:36.156 like the copper pans and the aluminum pans, and a 0:14:36.196 --> 0:14:40.356 lot of aluminum pans. Very commonly, they laminate a like 0:14:40.436 --> 0:14:44.396 a steel disc on the bottom to make induction stoves 0:14:44.396 --> 0:14:45.356 work these days. 0:14:47.716 --> 0:14:50.196 Skill to come on the show, Sam walks me through 0:14:50.276 --> 0:14:52.756 what I would need to do to install a regular, 0:14:53.156 --> 0:14:57.116 non battery powered induction stove in my house, and that 0:14:57.276 --> 0:15:00.356 explanation points to a really big problem that has to 0:15:00.356 --> 0:15:04.196 be solved if we're going to electrify homes around the country. Also, 0:15:04.636 --> 0:15:18.236 how Sam thinks he can help solve that problem. There 0:15:18.316 --> 0:15:22.476 is a kind of second order problem with switching stove, 0:15:23.196 --> 0:15:25.876 which is like, even if I decide, okay, I want 0:15:25.916 --> 0:15:28.756 an induction stove, regular induction stove, not talking about what 0:15:28.756 --> 0:15:33.996 you're building. I want a stove, I'll get rid of 0:15:33.996 --> 0:15:36.316 my gas stove. I'll buy an induction stove. For whatever reason, 0:15:37.396 --> 0:15:39.796 my house may not be wired for it. Right, Like, 0:15:39.956 --> 0:15:43.356 I'm already willing to pay for the stove, but I 0:15:43.396 --> 0:15:46.636 can't just buy the stove and get somebody to bring 0:15:46.676 --> 0:15:50.036 it in and plug it in often, right, my house 0:15:50.076 --> 0:15:51.676 is one hundred years old. I have a gas stove 0:15:51.716 --> 0:15:53.516 and a gas off and what would I have to 0:15:53.516 --> 0:15:55.676 do if I wanted to get an induction stove. 0:15:56.036 --> 0:15:58.636 So where the where in the country. Where in the 0:15:58.636 --> 0:15:59.196 country is your. 0:15:59.116 --> 0:16:01.196 House of Brooklyn, New York? 0:16:01.596 --> 0:16:03.356 Excellent, Okay, this is I can I can give you 0:16:03.396 --> 0:16:07.956 an even more micro tailored example. So here's the situation. 0:16:08.516 --> 0:16:10.756 You're like, I'm doing a kitchen remodel, I'm doing whatever. 0:16:10.756 --> 0:16:12.156 I'm like, I'm gonna I want to get a new stove. 0:16:12.516 --> 0:16:15.636 I heard this induction thing is awesome, Let's go do it. 0:16:16.156 --> 0:16:20.276 And then there's like the Then it's basically like you 0:16:20.316 --> 0:16:22.436 talk to your general contractor and you're like, oh, you 0:16:22.476 --> 0:16:24.156 need to run a new two hundred and forty volt 0:16:24.156 --> 0:16:28.316 circuit to your kitchen from your panel. If you if 0:16:28.356 --> 0:16:31.436 you were lucky and you don't live in Brooklyn, this 0:16:31.516 --> 0:16:33.556 is typically like five hundred bucks. Like it's not a 0:16:33.676 --> 0:16:37.396 huge deal. So then the next piece is they're then 0:16:37.436 --> 0:16:39.116 going to go to your panel and they're gonna open 0:16:39.116 --> 0:16:41.076 it up and they're gonna look at the numbers for 0:16:41.156 --> 0:16:43.676 what your panel is rated for and your electrical panel 0:16:43.756 --> 0:16:46.876 for folks, that that's the that's the metal box that 0:16:46.996 --> 0:16:50.156 has all the circum rates. Like yeah, so you open 0:16:50.196 --> 0:16:52.116 that up. There's a label on the inside and it 0:16:52.116 --> 0:16:56.116 says maximum let's say sixty amps, because I'm picking on 0:16:56.516 --> 0:16:58.636 if you have a Brooklyn apartment or something like that, 0:16:58.636 --> 0:17:01.676 that would be what it is. It'll say sixty amps. 0:17:01.836 --> 0:17:04.116 You then look at the spec sheet for the induction stove, 0:17:05.356 --> 0:17:07.836 it says sixty amps. You would need to use your 0:17:07.996 --> 0:17:13.876 entire Brooklyn h electrical supply. A new panel is like 0:17:13.916 --> 0:17:16.476 three grand or something like that, Okay, or four grand. 0:17:16.516 --> 0:17:19.036 So this is like more expensive than a lot of 0:17:19.076 --> 0:17:21.076 induction stoves. Like you buy some great products from SAMs 0:17:21.076 --> 0:17:25.356 like are LG those are those are the panel upgrade 0:17:25.396 --> 0:17:27.556 and the rewiring is going to be more expensive than 0:17:27.596 --> 0:17:28.836 the entire stuff stove. 0:17:28.956 --> 0:17:32.036 Yeah, and I've heard you talk about one more step 0:17:32.116 --> 0:17:35.316 right which which goes beyond the panel, and it's about 0:17:35.316 --> 0:17:39.076 like how much power is coming into the house from 0:17:39.116 --> 0:17:41.396 the street. What is that piece of it. 0:17:41.836 --> 0:17:43.956 Let's say you want to get a two hundred amp panel, 0:17:44.436 --> 0:17:46.396 you may only have one hundred and twenty five amp service, 0:17:46.476 --> 0:17:48.996 which means you're going to have to call up con 0:17:49.156 --> 0:17:53.356 ed and maybe wait eighteen months. That's what the lead 0:17:53.436 --> 0:17:56.276 times are for PGN in San Francisco for them to 0:17:56.356 --> 0:17:59.996 go and upgrade your service from the street. 0:18:00.716 --> 0:18:02.596 And do they charge me for that as well? 0:18:02.836 --> 0:18:05.396 Yes, and that can be over ten thousand dollars. 0:18:05.116 --> 0:18:07.756 I will say, even having to call con ed, even 0:18:07.836 --> 0:18:10.236 before you got to the tenth thousand dollars in waiting 0:18:10.236 --> 0:18:13.116 a year, I'm basically out right if I got a 0:18:13.196 --> 0:18:15.676 call cond to get a new stove, like my stove 0:18:15.756 --> 0:18:16.156 is fine. 0:18:16.276 --> 0:18:19.036 Whatever you're you're on the side of big gas and 0:18:19.156 --> 0:18:22.116 you love it. So that's the situation and scope of 0:18:22.156 --> 0:18:22.676 this problem. 0:18:22.956 --> 0:18:25.716 And so that I mean, so whatever the level is, right, 0:18:25.756 --> 0:18:27.636 So you've sort of stepped through like. 0:18:28.316 --> 0:18:29.436 There's a somewhat level. 0:18:29.556 --> 0:18:31.996 Oh I was okay, I was already sold. What's the 0:18:32.036 --> 0:18:32.676 fourth level? 0:18:32.916 --> 0:18:35.236 If you were the like last person on your street 0:18:35.316 --> 0:18:37.476 to want to do this. And by the way, all 0:18:37.516 --> 0:18:40.276 of your neighbors are getting EV chargers installed and also 0:18:40.356 --> 0:18:42.876 doing the service upgrades. Even if they don't care what 0:18:42.916 --> 0:18:44.956 their stove uses, they're gonna need to get to charge 0:18:44.956 --> 0:18:47.556 your Tesla. It's the same as a Tesla charger and 0:18:47.636 --> 0:18:50.516 a induction stove are both like forty to sixty apps, 0:18:50.516 --> 0:18:52.796 so it's the same. So that's the order of Magnazue 0:18:52.796 --> 0:18:54.996 need to think. You may have to if you're the 0:18:55.036 --> 0:18:57.876 last person, you may have to pay to upgrade the transformer. 0:18:58.556 --> 0:19:02.476 And because we stop building stuff in America anymore, there 0:19:02.516 --> 0:19:04.636 is an insane lead time on transformers. 0:19:04.636 --> 0:19:07.196 Now, yeah, I mean at this point it's like whatever, 0:19:07.236 --> 0:19:08.836 you gotta get out a rocket ship and go to 0:19:08.836 --> 0:19:13.716 the moon. Right, So there is an idea here that 0:19:13.796 --> 0:19:16.836 is really interesting to me, right, and to you as 0:19:16.876 --> 0:19:19.076 well obviously, Like there's this basic idea of like, yes, 0:19:19.076 --> 0:19:22.316 we're all going to electrifire homes over some timescale, hopefully 0:19:22.356 --> 0:19:26.436 faster rather than slower, right, and great, and people are 0:19:26.436 --> 0:19:31.516 figuring out, you know whatever, nice efficient ways to eat 0:19:31.556 --> 0:19:34.516 water and dry clothes and cook food with electricity. Great, 0:19:34.796 --> 0:19:39.556 but there's this very basic sort of last mile problem, right, 0:19:39.636 --> 0:19:44.516 last ten feet problem of getting enough electricity just to 0:19:44.716 --> 0:19:49.396 the stove from whatever the panel from the street that is. 0:19:50.876 --> 0:19:52.556 That is a real problem. 0:19:52.836 --> 0:19:54.956 I think the last ten feet problem is kind of 0:19:54.956 --> 0:19:56.676 a way to think of like versus last mile, but 0:19:56.796 --> 0:19:59.236 last ten feet it is like a really great way 0:19:59.236 --> 0:19:59.796 to think about it. 0:19:59.836 --> 0:20:00.836 And it's kind of fractal. 0:20:00.916 --> 0:20:01.036