1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:21,996 Speaker 1: Pushkin. There's two ways in. There's two ways in, and 2 00:00:21,996 --> 00:00:25,436 Speaker 1: I'll let you choose. One way in is pizza and tokyo. 3 00:00:25,916 --> 00:00:29,436 Speaker 2: The other way you got, what's the second one? What's 4 00:00:29,436 --> 00:00:29,956 Speaker 2: the second one? 5 00:00:30,036 --> 00:00:33,596 Speaker 1: The second one is the more uh thinky, the more 6 00:00:33,596 --> 00:00:37,036 Speaker 1: intellectual way in, which is like electrification is great, but 7 00:00:37,156 --> 00:00:40,436 Speaker 1: like the wire going into my house isn't big enough 8 00:00:40,476 --> 00:00:42,836 Speaker 1: basically to get all the electricity into my house that 9 00:00:42,876 --> 00:00:43,116 Speaker 1: I need. 10 00:00:43,276 --> 00:00:49,796 Speaker 2: Let's start with pizza. 11 00:00:50,476 --> 00:00:52,996 Speaker 1: I'm Jacob Goldstein and this is What's Your Problem, the 12 00:00:53,036 --> 00:00:55,156 Speaker 1: show where I talk to people who are trying to 13 00:00:55,236 --> 00:00:59,716 Speaker 1: make technological progress. My guest today is Sam Demico. He's 14 00:00:59,756 --> 00:01:02,836 Speaker 1: the founder and CEO of Impulse Labs, which is a 15 00:01:02,836 --> 00:01:07,556 Speaker 1: company that makes induction stoves. Sam's problem is this, how 16 00:01:07,596 --> 00:01:10,636 Speaker 1: do you build a really good DRIC cook top that 17 00:01:10,716 --> 00:01:14,716 Speaker 1: people can install without having to rewire their house, and that, 18 00:01:14,956 --> 00:01:18,516 Speaker 1: by the way, could eventually help transform the way electric 19 00:01:18,596 --> 00:01:23,356 Speaker 1: power works in America. It's an ambitious project, ambitious stove, 20 00:01:24,036 --> 00:01:26,636 Speaker 1: and it goes back to this moment when Sam ordered 21 00:01:26,676 --> 00:01:29,516 Speaker 1: a pizza. He was working for Facebook at the time, 22 00:01:29,796 --> 00:01:33,076 Speaker 1: helping to build their Oculus VR headset, and he was 23 00:01:33,116 --> 00:01:39,916 Speaker 1: at a conference in Tokyo. What neighborhood in Tokyo did 24 00:01:39,916 --> 00:01:40,596 Speaker 1: you have the pizza? 25 00:01:40,716 --> 00:01:44,556 Speaker 2: I think it was. I think it was near Akasaka station. 26 00:01:44,796 --> 00:01:46,396 Speaker 2: It's like, savoid pizza. 27 00:01:46,396 --> 00:01:48,436 Speaker 1: Okay, so tell me about the pizza. 28 00:01:48,676 --> 00:01:49,996 Speaker 2: I order my pizza and I get it back in 29 00:01:49,996 --> 00:01:52,516 Speaker 2: like forty five seconds or like a minute or something insane. 30 00:01:52,836 --> 00:01:54,676 Speaker 2: I probably say a different number of different people. But 31 00:01:54,716 --> 00:02:00,036 Speaker 2: it was fast enough and absolutely fantastic. Then Krispy a 32 00:02:00,076 --> 00:02:04,716 Speaker 2: lot of garlic, super super good, like master of the 33 00:02:04,716 --> 00:02:06,516 Speaker 2: craft type situation. So I get this, and I'm like, 34 00:02:06,996 --> 00:02:10,156 Speaker 2: I want to do this at home, and I don't 35 00:02:10,196 --> 00:02:12,236 Speaker 2: want to have to have a giant brick oven in 36 00:02:12,236 --> 00:02:16,516 Speaker 2: my backyard. And so I was like, it would be 37 00:02:16,516 --> 00:02:19,156 Speaker 2: really sweet if you could do this with electrical electricity. 38 00:02:20,476 --> 00:02:23,316 Speaker 1: And how are they doing it? What's going on? 39 00:02:23,836 --> 00:02:27,036 Speaker 2: So this is a classic like how normal brick oven 40 00:02:27,036 --> 00:02:29,636 Speaker 2: pizzas make, and I was like, I want to replicate 41 00:02:29,796 --> 00:02:32,876 Speaker 2: that like an old school brick oven. The amount of 42 00:02:32,876 --> 00:02:35,196 Speaker 2: infrared power that thing dumps onto the pizza because the 43 00:02:35,196 --> 00:02:39,676 Speaker 2: fire reflects off of a curved bowl above the of 44 00:02:39,716 --> 00:02:42,876 Speaker 2: the pizza. It okay, I'm like, could I just do 45 00:02:42,956 --> 00:02:44,916 Speaker 2: this with halogen light bulbs? And a lot of power. 46 00:02:45,436 --> 00:02:48,116 Speaker 2: Could a pizza oven that makes a pizza of that 47 00:02:48,196 --> 00:02:53,516 Speaker 2: quality be an electronic device? And I was like, I 48 00:02:53,676 --> 00:02:56,436 Speaker 2: let's figure this out. And I realized that the power 49 00:02:56,476 --> 00:02:59,836 Speaker 2: density of like the amount of infrared and the heating 50 00:02:59,876 --> 00:03:03,476 Speaker 2: you need to get that onto the pizza, you were 51 00:03:03,476 --> 00:03:05,716 Speaker 2: going to need more than a normal one twenty volt plug. 52 00:03:05,796 --> 00:03:09,676 Speaker 1: So you're saying that if you you figured out how 53 00:03:09,756 --> 00:03:12,636 Speaker 1: much power you would need to make a pizza of 54 00:03:12,636 --> 00:03:15,956 Speaker 1: them that could get that hot from electricity. Yeah, and 55 00:03:16,036 --> 00:03:18,956 Speaker 1: you realize that you couldn't build a device that you 56 00:03:18,996 --> 00:03:21,276 Speaker 1: could just plug into the wall because it would need 57 00:03:21,316 --> 00:03:24,436 Speaker 1: too much power. That's the fundamental constraint. 58 00:03:24,116 --> 00:03:28,476 Speaker 2: Of bingo bingo exactly. I was like, okay, well, how 59 00:03:28,476 --> 00:03:31,036 Speaker 2: often are you using this thing? And also how often 60 00:03:31,076 --> 00:03:33,556 Speaker 2: is it even if you're like cranking out pizzas, like 61 00:03:33,836 --> 00:03:36,156 Speaker 2: you're gonna be like prepping the next pizza, Like, there's 62 00:03:36,156 --> 00:03:39,756 Speaker 2: time in between for say a battery to recharge, uh huh, 63 00:03:39,796 --> 00:03:42,436 Speaker 2: in between the various pizza making sessions. 64 00:03:42,636 --> 00:03:42,756 Speaker 1: Right. 65 00:03:43,156 --> 00:03:44,596 Speaker 2: So I went and just looked at this and I 66 00:03:44,676 --> 00:03:46,836 Speaker 2: was like, Okay. I sized the battery pack and I'm like, okay, 67 00:03:47,476 --> 00:03:50,836 Speaker 2: this is getting large. It's not like it's not it's 68 00:03:50,876 --> 00:03:53,996 Speaker 2: not like laptop battery size. It's more like it's getting 69 00:03:53,996 --> 00:03:56,916 Speaker 2: into like those little stationary like batteries you use for 70 00:03:56,916 --> 00:03:59,036 Speaker 2: camping or something like that. It was getting into that. 71 00:03:59,116 --> 00:04:00,316 Speaker 2: It was getting into that a lot. 72 00:04:00,396 --> 00:04:03,516 Speaker 1: So you realize you're gonna need a lot of battery power. 73 00:04:03,836 --> 00:04:06,116 Speaker 1: But what I just want to pause before we get 74 00:04:06,116 --> 00:04:08,316 Speaker 1: into like how big were the battery, because the idea 75 00:04:08,316 --> 00:04:12,036 Speaker 1: of the battery is I feel like at a certain level, 76 00:04:12,036 --> 00:04:13,676 Speaker 1: it's why I want to talk to you, right Otherwise, yeah, 77 00:04:13,636 --> 00:04:17,316 Speaker 1: the stoves, like the battery is a great, big, powerful 78 00:04:17,316 --> 00:04:20,036 Speaker 1: idea with lots of ramifications. Right, And so the first 79 00:04:20,476 --> 00:04:24,356 Speaker 1: the first, the first thing, the first reason you think 80 00:04:24,396 --> 00:04:29,556 Speaker 1: of the battery is you realize, oh, you can use 81 00:04:29,596 --> 00:04:32,596 Speaker 1: the regular outlet, just the same outlet that whatever I 82 00:04:32,676 --> 00:04:35,436 Speaker 1: charge my phone on. You can use for like a 83 00:04:35,636 --> 00:04:38,876 Speaker 1: super powerful, super hot stove if you add a battery, 84 00:04:38,876 --> 00:04:42,596 Speaker 1: because the battery can just draw power all day when 85 00:04:42,636 --> 00:04:44,196 Speaker 1: the stove is just sitting there, and then when you 86 00:04:44,236 --> 00:04:46,956 Speaker 1: go to turn on the stove, it can discharge a 87 00:04:47,036 --> 00:04:49,476 Speaker 1: ton of energy all at once, more than you could 88 00:04:49,476 --> 00:04:51,796 Speaker 1: get out of the outlet. Right, Like that is that's 89 00:04:51,916 --> 00:04:55,556 Speaker 1: upside insight because we don't think of home appliances that way, right. 90 00:04:55,796 --> 00:04:58,036 Speaker 2: And it's always and your appliance is always plugged in. 91 00:04:58,116 --> 00:05:00,076 Speaker 2: Why would you put a battery in something that is 92 00:05:00,116 --> 00:05:03,156 Speaker 2: always plugged in? Yeah, which is kind of the like 93 00:05:03,356 --> 00:05:05,596 Speaker 2: weird yeah right that you have to make yeah. 94 00:05:05,516 --> 00:05:07,996 Speaker 1: Right, because right right? Why not just get it enough 95 00:05:08,036 --> 00:05:09,476 Speaker 1: power whenever you want on it? 96 00:05:09,876 --> 00:05:12,476 Speaker 2: Bingo? And then I was like, Okay, this is a 97 00:05:12,476 --> 00:05:16,676 Speaker 2: good idea. Let's pressure test what would actually cause a 98 00:05:16,796 --> 00:05:21,596 Speaker 2: VC to want to invest in this. And I then 99 00:05:21,716 --> 00:05:25,156 Speaker 2: kind of started fanning out beyond just me being like 100 00:05:25,196 --> 00:05:28,076 Speaker 2: I want my pizza really fast and in high quality. 101 00:05:28,516 --> 00:05:30,596 Speaker 2: And by the way, this pizza in my head is 102 00:05:30,636 --> 00:05:33,396 Speaker 2: like glistening in its pizza way. I'm like this, this 103 00:05:33,476 --> 00:05:35,756 Speaker 2: is this is like I want this pizza. But you 104 00:05:35,836 --> 00:05:38,276 Speaker 2: have to think about, hey, is this a platform? Is 105 00:05:38,316 --> 00:05:40,876 Speaker 2: there a wedge into a broader market? What's the big 106 00:05:40,876 --> 00:05:45,196 Speaker 2: story here? And so and so what I realized was like, 107 00:05:45,356 --> 00:05:48,236 Speaker 2: let's look at other appliances what the story is. And 108 00:05:48,636 --> 00:05:51,836 Speaker 2: I I then thought through kind of the implications and 109 00:05:51,836 --> 00:05:53,876 Speaker 2: I was like, Okay, for the bigger appliances, say the 110 00:05:53,876 --> 00:05:56,796 Speaker 2: ones that normally plug in with like a two forty 111 00:05:56,796 --> 00:06:00,396 Speaker 2: evolt plug like the bigger one, or like a dryer, 112 00:06:01,036 --> 00:06:03,476 Speaker 2: like a stovetop and of it like a wall of it, 113 00:06:03,716 --> 00:06:07,756 Speaker 2: or a range product or a hot water heater, and 114 00:06:09,236 --> 00:06:11,276 Speaker 2: how big is the battery going to be in those cases? 115 00:06:11,276 --> 00:06:13,156 Speaker 2: And I kind of did the math and sizing, and 116 00:06:13,156 --> 00:06:15,476 Speaker 2: I was like, oh, it's going to be like north 117 00:06:15,516 --> 00:06:17,956 Speaker 2: of two kilo what hours at least? So I'll give 118 00:06:17,956 --> 00:06:20,036 Speaker 2: you the scaling factor on this is like is like 119 00:06:20,756 --> 00:06:23,436 Speaker 2: you you could very quickly take like four, three or 120 00:06:23,436 --> 00:06:25,556 Speaker 2: four major appliances because you think of all the big 121 00:06:25,556 --> 00:06:29,156 Speaker 2: boxes you've got in your house. Times a couple of 122 00:06:29,196 --> 00:06:31,836 Speaker 2: KILLO on hours batteries, you get about the same amount 123 00:06:31,836 --> 00:06:33,276 Speaker 2: of storage as a Tesla power wall. 124 00:06:34,316 --> 00:06:36,716 Speaker 1: A Tesla powerwall being the like you can live off 125 00:06:36,756 --> 00:06:39,196 Speaker 1: the grid you put your panels on your roof, and 126 00:06:39,236 --> 00:06:42,516 Speaker 1: a Tesla powerwall. So you're basically saying you can sort 127 00:06:42,556 --> 00:06:45,876 Speaker 1: of distribute a like live off the grid amount of 128 00:06:45,876 --> 00:06:48,956 Speaker 1: batteries if you could put a battery on the stove 129 00:06:49,196 --> 00:06:51,036 Speaker 1: and the fridge and the hot water heater. 130 00:06:51,636 --> 00:06:54,476 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, exactly. Then I looked at what was happening 131 00:06:54,516 --> 00:06:56,996 Speaker 2: in the stationary storage battery industry and it was like 132 00:06:57,036 --> 00:07:00,436 Speaker 2: it was all focusing on these centralized battery systems like 133 00:07:00,476 --> 00:07:04,676 Speaker 2: a battery wall battery wall type product. They weren't addressing 134 00:07:04,836 --> 00:07:08,756 Speaker 2: all the wiring in your house. And also, like appliances, 135 00:07:08,796 --> 00:07:10,796 Speaker 2: basically they haven't seen a lot of innovation in like 136 00:07:10,876 --> 00:07:13,596 Speaker 2: fifty years or so. It's like induction stoves are fifty 137 00:07:13,676 --> 00:07:16,476 Speaker 2: years old for reference, so's it's like, this is an 138 00:07:16,516 --> 00:07:21,756 Speaker 2: opportunity to generationally advance the appliance industry and then also 139 00:07:21,876 --> 00:07:24,756 Speaker 2: wedge like let's call it ten plus kill a lot 140 00:07:24,756 --> 00:07:29,116 Speaker 2: of hours of batteries into every home in America. That 141 00:07:29,276 --> 00:07:32,036 Speaker 2: is really interesting, right, Like that is a bigger story 142 00:07:32,116 --> 00:07:34,116 Speaker 2: than your pizza is awesome. 143 00:07:34,476 --> 00:07:36,876 Speaker 1: So there's a few balls in the air right now, 144 00:07:37,276 --> 00:07:42,036 Speaker 1: how do you land on starting with an induction stove? 145 00:07:42,796 --> 00:07:46,436 Speaker 2: So we thought of doing maybe tabletop devices first because 146 00:07:46,436 --> 00:07:47,636 Speaker 2: they'd be easier. 147 00:07:47,556 --> 00:07:48,796 Speaker 1: But I don't know what that means. 148 00:07:48,796 --> 00:07:51,516 Speaker 2: Tabletop device would be like you could imagine the pizza 149 00:07:51,516 --> 00:07:53,916 Speaker 2: oven being an ambitious one, but you could think of 150 00:07:53,996 --> 00:07:56,876 Speaker 2: like there's other product ideas we've been peddling around. It's 151 00:07:56,876 --> 00:08:01,476 Speaker 2: like kettle just like that. Yeah, ok, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 152 00:08:01,676 --> 00:08:03,716 Speaker 2: you could do something. There's a lot of things that 153 00:08:03,996 --> 00:08:06,316 Speaker 2: have high peak power demands that are interesting. 154 00:08:06,716 --> 00:08:08,396 Speaker 1: We were like, we got an air fryer and it 155 00:08:08,476 --> 00:08:11,196 Speaker 1: keeps blowing out the circuit breaker. We can't run the 156 00:08:11,196 --> 00:08:13,276 Speaker 1: air fryer and the microwave at the same time. Give 157 00:08:13,276 --> 00:08:13,836 Speaker 1: me a battery. 158 00:08:14,316 --> 00:08:16,396 Speaker 2: I know, I will know. No announcements on this podcast 159 00:08:16,476 --> 00:08:17,996 Speaker 2: for product announcements. 160 00:08:19,556 --> 00:08:22,996 Speaker 1: Okay, but those feel sort of small ball compared to 161 00:08:23,116 --> 00:08:25,596 Speaker 1: a stovetop right, Like an air fryer is like kind 162 00:08:25,636 --> 00:08:28,556 Speaker 1: of a luxury weirdo item, whereas everybody has a stove. 163 00:08:29,116 --> 00:08:30,836 Speaker 1: I mean, is that part of why you land on 164 00:08:30,876 --> 00:08:31,236 Speaker 1: a stove. 165 00:08:31,596 --> 00:08:35,156 Speaker 2: There's there's two reasons. One is there has not been 166 00:08:35,316 --> 00:08:37,796 Speaker 2: there's actually a lot of meat on the bone where 167 00:08:37,836 --> 00:08:39,876 Speaker 2: you could say, like if I make your hot water 168 00:08:39,916 --> 00:08:42,596 Speaker 2: heater like three times more powerful, you can't make the 169 00:08:42,596 --> 00:08:43,436 Speaker 2: water three times hotter. 170 00:08:43,556 --> 00:08:46,076 Speaker 1: Most people wouldn't notice the difference if their water heater. 171 00:08:46,356 --> 00:08:49,196 Speaker 2: So this is this is the key insight is gas 172 00:08:49,196 --> 00:08:52,076 Speaker 2: stoves are and like the knobs and all that stuff, 173 00:08:52,236 --> 00:08:57,396 Speaker 2: the ui ux of the stove is the fuel source. 174 00:08:57,836 --> 00:08:59,556 Speaker 1: And so just to be clear, when you say you 175 00:08:59,556 --> 00:09:02,276 Speaker 1: mean the user interface user experience, like when you turn 176 00:09:02,316 --> 00:09:04,596 Speaker 1: on a gas stove, you can see the gas flame. 177 00:09:04,636 --> 00:09:06,836 Speaker 1: That's what you can It's the place in your house 178 00:09:06,836 --> 00:09:09,956 Speaker 1: where you actually see, like, oh, I am burning fossil 179 00:09:09,996 --> 00:09:11,916 Speaker 1: fuel in order to cook spaghetti. 180 00:09:12,356 --> 00:09:15,316 Speaker 2: Gas stoves are the one situation where if you want 181 00:09:15,356 --> 00:09:17,716 Speaker 2: to make a fossil fuel free home or like electrify 182 00:09:17,796 --> 00:09:21,196 Speaker 2: the home completely, you would be That is the one 183 00:09:22,156 --> 00:09:25,396 Speaker 2: mental block and like actual like performance block where people 184 00:09:25,396 --> 00:09:27,396 Speaker 2: are like, well, I like my gas stove and I 185 00:09:27,396 --> 00:09:28,196 Speaker 2: can't get rid of it. 186 00:09:28,356 --> 00:09:31,036 Speaker 1: Nobody's going to be like I love my gas dryer 187 00:09:31,196 --> 00:09:32,476 Speaker 1: or I love my gas water. 188 00:09:33,676 --> 00:09:36,116 Speaker 2: Who cares? Yeah, yeah, No, that's it. That's a cost thing. 189 00:09:36,156 --> 00:09:38,356 Speaker 2: That's like a that's like a maybe maybe my gas 190 00:09:38,396 --> 00:09:41,876 Speaker 2: company's expensive, maybe is cheap. You'll pe people. 191 00:09:41,676 --> 00:09:44,036 Speaker 1: Don't have an attachment to a gas water heater the 192 00:09:44,076 --> 00:09:46,956 Speaker 1: way they have an attachment to a gas stove. Yes, exactly, 193 00:09:47,116 --> 00:09:48,916 Speaker 1: I buy that, But that seems like a reason you 194 00:09:48,956 --> 00:09:52,436 Speaker 1: wouldn't want to do and stove as your first one. 195 00:09:52,476 --> 00:09:54,436 Speaker 1: That seems to make it harder, not easier. 196 00:09:54,956 --> 00:09:58,116 Speaker 2: So that's one piece. But then the second piece was 197 00:09:59,156 --> 00:10:01,996 Speaker 2: the battery. Lets us beat the pants off of anything else. 198 00:10:01,796 --> 00:10:03,796 Speaker 1: In the market in terms of performance. 199 00:10:03,796 --> 00:10:05,676 Speaker 2: Performance In terms of performance, it. 200 00:10:05,636 --> 00:10:07,596 Speaker 1: Goes back to the amazing pizza oven. 201 00:10:07,836 --> 00:10:09,316 Speaker 2: Yes, it goes back to the amazing piece of a 202 00:10:09,356 --> 00:10:11,716 Speaker 2: thing where it's like and so thinking through this was 203 00:10:12,356 --> 00:10:14,756 Speaker 2: where is there like a wedge where like you have 204 00:10:14,836 --> 00:10:17,796 Speaker 2: to beat fossil fuels by a resolutely huge amount to 205 00:10:17,836 --> 00:10:22,316 Speaker 2: displace it. So that's why it has happened. Fully, we 206 00:10:22,436 --> 00:10:26,476 Speaker 2: can do it. And it's also an installed appliance. So 207 00:10:26,516 --> 00:10:28,596 Speaker 2: the and this is the piece that I'm going to 208 00:10:28,636 --> 00:10:31,356 Speaker 2: get it next. So the battery can be wired in 209 00:10:31,396 --> 00:10:34,036 Speaker 2: a way where it can support the grid by charging 210 00:10:34,036 --> 00:10:38,716 Speaker 2: and discharging into the house, not just like the appliance 211 00:10:38,756 --> 00:10:40,396 Speaker 2: having a boost from the battery basically. 212 00:10:40,636 --> 00:10:44,316 Speaker 1: So there's sort of two different ideas. There two reasons 213 00:10:44,356 --> 00:10:47,236 Speaker 1: you wanted to do the stove right. So one the 214 00:10:47,276 --> 00:10:50,996 Speaker 1: first one you said, is because it can you can 215 00:10:51,156 --> 00:10:54,356 Speaker 1: use the battery to make a better electric stove than 216 00:10:54,436 --> 00:10:56,316 Speaker 1: exists now and to make a stove that is better 217 00:10:56,356 --> 00:10:58,636 Speaker 1: than any gas stove that exists now. Yes, and that 218 00:10:59,276 --> 00:11:03,676 Speaker 1: improvement is meaningful to the typical homeown or the typical 219 00:11:03,716 --> 00:11:06,556 Speaker 1: human being in a way that a better water heater 220 00:11:06,756 --> 00:11:08,156 Speaker 1: who cares. 221 00:11:08,036 --> 00:11:10,916 Speaker 2: Yeah, and like better water hitter may save you money, 222 00:11:11,036 --> 00:11:12,676 Speaker 2: like say you go to a heat pump water hitter. 223 00:11:12,996 --> 00:11:15,316 Speaker 2: It's like, oh, my energy bill is two to three 224 00:11:15,356 --> 00:11:18,636 Speaker 2: and a half times less, yeah, versus a resistant one. Cool, 225 00:11:19,036 --> 00:11:21,876 Speaker 2: but in our case, it's like your water literally boils 226 00:11:22,076 --> 00:11:23,836 Speaker 2: ten times faster than your gastove. 227 00:11:26,676 --> 00:11:28,316 Speaker 1: I want to talk about that. Let's we'll get back 228 00:11:28,356 --> 00:11:30,276 Speaker 1: to the wiring thing and the battery and that your 229 00:11:30,316 --> 00:11:32,316 Speaker 1: battery can then like go back into the grid. Like 230 00:11:33,036 --> 00:11:35,716 Speaker 1: I like all that. It's very interesting. It's a big 231 00:11:35,756 --> 00:11:37,076 Speaker 1: idea there. I want to talk about it, but I 232 00:11:37,076 --> 00:11:40,796 Speaker 1: want to wait a minute to talk about that. And 233 00:11:40,836 --> 00:11:43,716 Speaker 1: I want to just talk about induction stoves, yeah, for 234 00:11:44,076 --> 00:11:49,276 Speaker 1: a minute in a few ways. Right, So one, I 235 00:11:49,276 --> 00:11:53,356 Speaker 1: mean just simply just like kind of basic A basic 236 00:11:53,396 --> 00:11:56,156 Speaker 1: thing is like there's different kinds of electric stoves. Right, 237 00:11:56,196 --> 00:11:59,116 Speaker 1: there's the kind like I had as a child in 238 00:11:59,156 --> 00:12:02,676 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties with the coil that gets orange, right, 239 00:12:03,036 --> 00:12:06,356 Speaker 1: And then there's the kind that you know people had 240 00:12:06,396 --> 00:12:09,476 Speaker 1: as a child in the whatever two thousands, where it's 241 00:12:09,516 --> 00:12:12,436 Speaker 1: a flat piece of glass and the little circle gets 242 00:12:12,516 --> 00:12:13,356 Speaker 1: red right. 243 00:12:13,556 --> 00:12:13,676 Speaker 2: Ye. 244 00:12:13,836 --> 00:12:16,836 Speaker 1: And to be clear, neither of those is an induction stove. 245 00:12:16,956 --> 00:12:18,356 Speaker 2: They are both terrible as well. 246 00:12:18,596 --> 00:12:20,516 Speaker 1: They are terrible, right, So I grew up with that 247 00:12:21,156 --> 00:12:24,036 Speaker 1: and now I have gas, and I'm like, I like 248 00:12:24,116 --> 00:12:26,316 Speaker 1: gas because you know the other one. You turn it 249 00:12:26,356 --> 00:12:28,076 Speaker 1: on and it takes forever to get hot, and then 250 00:12:28,116 --> 00:12:31,596 Speaker 1: you turn it off and it's still hot, which, like 251 00:12:30,956 --> 00:12:33,996 Speaker 1: you like pan really bad. Yeah, if you've got a 252 00:12:34,036 --> 00:12:35,716 Speaker 1: bunch of things on the stove, there's nowhere to put 253 00:12:35,716 --> 00:12:37,516 Speaker 1: it and gas, Like, you turn it on and you 254 00:12:37,516 --> 00:12:39,116 Speaker 1: can see it, and you turn it off and like 255 00:12:39,516 --> 00:12:43,036 Speaker 1: any pan will work on it. You don't need special pans. 256 00:12:43,636 --> 00:12:47,756 Speaker 1: You can turn the knob turn, does it you see 257 00:12:47,756 --> 00:12:50,956 Speaker 1: the flame? Like at a certain non rational level, I'm 258 00:12:51,036 --> 00:12:53,996 Speaker 1: wary of induction stoves. First of all, tell me why 259 00:12:53,996 --> 00:12:55,356 Speaker 1: I'm wary of induction stoves. 260 00:12:55,636 --> 00:12:58,636 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think it's. I think it's because the 261 00:12:58,796 --> 00:13:01,436 Speaker 2: entire history of electric stoves has been disappointing. The first 262 00:13:01,436 --> 00:13:03,796 Speaker 2: generation of with the coils that is like a it's 263 00:13:03,796 --> 00:13:07,476 Speaker 2: like a heating ailment that conducts into the pan basically, 264 00:13:07,596 --> 00:13:11,116 Speaker 2: and the knob controls that. It takes like minutes for 265 00:13:11,196 --> 00:13:14,556 Speaker 2: that to change its temperature. So the next gen is 266 00:13:14,716 --> 00:13:18,476 Speaker 2: they're like, let's just basically put a light bulb underneath. 267 00:13:18,316 --> 00:13:20,516 Speaker 1: So that's the flat piece of glass with the red 268 00:13:20,556 --> 00:13:23,516 Speaker 1: circle under it. That is also like confusing and kind 269 00:13:23,516 --> 00:13:24,916 Speaker 1: of slow and bad. 270 00:13:25,396 --> 00:13:28,236 Speaker 2: Yes, it's it's terrible, it's bad. And then and then 271 00:13:28,236 --> 00:13:32,436 Speaker 2: induction is this technology that directly heats the pan with 272 00:13:32,516 --> 00:13:35,196 Speaker 2: magnetic fields. And so this is one where it's like 273 00:13:35,236 --> 00:13:38,756 Speaker 2: there's nothing glowing red, there's nothing actually getting hot. 274 00:13:38,596 --> 00:13:42,396 Speaker 1: Besides stove itself is not getting hot on an induction stone. 275 00:13:42,396 --> 00:13:44,796 Speaker 2: And we always get asked this question from people being 276 00:13:44,836 --> 00:13:47,156 Speaker 2: like putting a battery in a stove, isn't the stove 277 00:13:47,196 --> 00:13:48,956 Speaker 2: really hot? And I'm like, the stove is not hot, 278 00:13:48,996 --> 00:13:52,796 Speaker 2: the pan is hot. You form a large electric current 279 00:13:53,196 --> 00:13:56,436 Speaker 2: in the base of the pan. The pan is made 280 00:13:56,436 --> 00:13:59,276 Speaker 2: of steel, not like copper, so it's kind of poor 281 00:13:59,436 --> 00:14:05,196 Speaker 2: in terms of electrical conductivity, so it doesn't it impedes 282 00:14:05,276 --> 00:14:07,356 Speaker 2: the flow of electricity. 283 00:14:06,836 --> 00:14:11,036 Speaker 1: And that generates heat to let the electricity flow through it. 284 00:14:11,076 --> 00:14:14,436 Speaker 1: And that resistance is what creates heat in the pan. 285 00:14:14,916 --> 00:14:16,196 Speaker 2: In the pan, yes, huh. 286 00:14:16,796 --> 00:14:19,996 Speaker 1: What kind of pans work and what kind of pants 287 00:14:20,076 --> 00:14:21,476 Speaker 1: don't work on an induction. 288 00:14:21,196 --> 00:14:25,356 Speaker 2: So you can make all of them work. Most pans work. 289 00:14:25,676 --> 00:14:30,316 Speaker 2: There are two pans that generally have issues unless they 290 00:14:30,316 --> 00:14:33,156 Speaker 2: have a laminated iron layer in them, and those are 291 00:14:33,156 --> 00:14:36,156 Speaker 2: like the copper pans and the aluminum pans, and a 292 00:14:36,196 --> 00:14:40,356 Speaker 2: lot of aluminum pans. Very commonly, they laminate a like 293 00:14:40,436 --> 00:14:44,396 Speaker 2: a steel disc on the bottom to make induction stoves 294 00:14:44,396 --> 00:14:45,356 Speaker 2: work these days. 295 00:14:47,716 --> 00:14:50,196 Speaker 1: Skill to come on the show, Sam walks me through 296 00:14:50,276 --> 00:14:52,756 Speaker 1: what I would need to do to install a regular, 297 00:14:53,156 --> 00:14:57,116 Speaker 1: non battery powered induction stove in my house, and that 298 00:14:57,276 --> 00:15:00,356 Speaker 1: explanation points to a really big problem that has to 299 00:15:00,356 --> 00:15:04,196 Speaker 1: be solved if we're going to electrify homes around the country. Also, 300 00:15:04,636 --> 00:15:18,236 Speaker 1: how Sam thinks he can help solve that problem. There 301 00:15:18,316 --> 00:15:22,476 Speaker 1: is a kind of second order problem with switching stove, 302 00:15:23,196 --> 00:15:25,876 Speaker 1: which is like, even if I decide, okay, I want 303 00:15:25,916 --> 00:15:28,756 Speaker 1: an induction stove, regular induction stove, not talking about what 304 00:15:28,756 --> 00:15:33,996 Speaker 1: you're building. I want a stove, I'll get rid of 305 00:15:33,996 --> 00:15:36,316 Speaker 1: my gas stove. I'll buy an induction stove. For whatever reason, 306 00:15:37,396 --> 00:15:39,796 Speaker 1: my house may not be wired for it. Right, Like, 307 00:15:39,956 --> 00:15:43,356 Speaker 1: I'm already willing to pay for the stove, but I 308 00:15:43,396 --> 00:15:46,636 Speaker 1: can't just buy the stove and get somebody to bring 309 00:15:46,676 --> 00:15:50,036 Speaker 1: it in and plug it in often, right, my house 310 00:15:50,076 --> 00:15:51,676 Speaker 1: is one hundred years old. I have a gas stove 311 00:15:51,716 --> 00:15:53,516 Speaker 1: and a gas off and what would I have to 312 00:15:53,516 --> 00:15:55,676 Speaker 1: do if I wanted to get an induction stove. 313 00:15:56,036 --> 00:15:58,636 Speaker 2: So where the where in the country. Where in the 314 00:15:58,636 --> 00:15:59,196 Speaker 2: country is your. 315 00:15:59,116 --> 00:16:01,196 Speaker 1: House of Brooklyn, New York? 316 00:16:01,596 --> 00:16:03,356 Speaker 2: Excellent, Okay, this is I can I can give you 317 00:16:03,396 --> 00:16:07,956 Speaker 2: an even more micro tailored example. So here's the situation. 318 00:16:08,516 --> 00:16:10,756 Speaker 2: You're like, I'm doing a kitchen remodel, I'm doing whatever. 319 00:16:10,756 --> 00:16:12,156 Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm gonna I want to get a new stove. 320 00:16:12,516 --> 00:16:15,636 Speaker 2: I heard this induction thing is awesome, Let's go do it. 321 00:16:16,156 --> 00:16:20,276 Speaker 2: And then there's like the Then it's basically like you 322 00:16:20,316 --> 00:16:22,436 Speaker 2: talk to your general contractor and you're like, oh, you 323 00:16:22,476 --> 00:16:24,156 Speaker 2: need to run a new two hundred and forty volt 324 00:16:24,156 --> 00:16:28,316 Speaker 2: circuit to your kitchen from your panel. If you if 325 00:16:28,356 --> 00:16:31,436 Speaker 2: you were lucky and you don't live in Brooklyn, this 326 00:16:31,516 --> 00:16:33,556 Speaker 2: is typically like five hundred bucks. Like it's not a 327 00:16:33,676 --> 00:16:37,396 Speaker 2: huge deal. So then the next piece is they're then 328 00:16:37,436 --> 00:16:39,116 Speaker 2: going to go to your panel and they're gonna open 329 00:16:39,116 --> 00:16:41,076 Speaker 2: it up and they're gonna look at the numbers for 330 00:16:41,156 --> 00:16:43,676 Speaker 2: what your panel is rated for and your electrical panel 331 00:16:43,756 --> 00:16:46,876 Speaker 2: for folks, that that's the that's the metal box that 332 00:16:46,996 --> 00:16:50,156 Speaker 2: has all the circum rates. Like yeah, so you open 333 00:16:50,196 --> 00:16:52,116 Speaker 2: that up. There's a label on the inside and it 334 00:16:52,116 --> 00:16:56,116 Speaker 2: says maximum let's say sixty amps, because I'm picking on 335 00:16:56,516 --> 00:16:58,636 Speaker 2: if you have a Brooklyn apartment or something like that, 336 00:16:58,636 --> 00:17:01,676 Speaker 2: that would be what it is. It'll say sixty amps. 337 00:17:01,836 --> 00:17:04,116 Speaker 2: You then look at the spec sheet for the induction stove, 338 00:17:05,356 --> 00:17:07,836 Speaker 2: it says sixty amps. You would need to use your 339 00:17:07,996 --> 00:17:13,876 Speaker 2: entire Brooklyn h electrical supply. A new panel is like 340 00:17:13,916 --> 00:17:16,476 Speaker 2: three grand or something like that, Okay, or four grand. 341 00:17:16,516 --> 00:17:19,036 Speaker 2: So this is like more expensive than a lot of 342 00:17:19,076 --> 00:17:21,076 Speaker 2: induction stoves. Like you buy some great products from SAMs 343 00:17:21,076 --> 00:17:25,356 Speaker 2: like are LG those are those are the panel upgrade 344 00:17:25,396 --> 00:17:27,556 Speaker 2: and the rewiring is going to be more expensive than 345 00:17:27,596 --> 00:17:28,836 Speaker 2: the entire stuff stove. 346 00:17:28,956 --> 00:17:32,036 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I've heard you talk about one more step 347 00:17:32,116 --> 00:17:35,316 Speaker 1: right which which goes beyond the panel, and it's about 348 00:17:35,316 --> 00:17:39,076 Speaker 1: like how much power is coming into the house from 349 00:17:39,116 --> 00:17:41,396 Speaker 1: the street. What is that piece of it. 350 00:17:41,836 --> 00:17:43,956 Speaker 2: Let's say you want to get a two hundred amp panel, 351 00:17:44,436 --> 00:17:46,396 Speaker 2: you may only have one hundred and twenty five amp service, 352 00:17:46,476 --> 00:17:48,996 Speaker 2: which means you're going to have to call up con 353 00:17:49,156 --> 00:17:53,356 Speaker 2: ed and maybe wait eighteen months. That's what the lead 354 00:17:53,436 --> 00:17:56,276 Speaker 2: times are for PGN in San Francisco for them to 355 00:17:56,356 --> 00:17:59,996 Speaker 2: go and upgrade your service from the street. 356 00:18:00,716 --> 00:18:02,596 Speaker 1: And do they charge me for that as well? 357 00:18:02,836 --> 00:18:05,396 Speaker 2: Yes, and that can be over ten thousand dollars. 358 00:18:05,116 --> 00:18:07,756 Speaker 1: I will say, even having to call con ed, even 359 00:18:07,836 --> 00:18:10,236 Speaker 1: before you got to the tenth thousand dollars in waiting 360 00:18:10,236 --> 00:18:13,116 Speaker 1: a year, I'm basically out right if I got a 361 00:18:13,196 --> 00:18:15,676 Speaker 1: call cond to get a new stove, like my stove 362 00:18:15,756 --> 00:18:16,156 Speaker 1: is fine. 363 00:18:16,276 --> 00:18:19,036 Speaker 2: Whatever you're you're on the side of big gas and 364 00:18:19,156 --> 00:18:22,116 Speaker 2: you love it. So that's the situation and scope of 365 00:18:22,156 --> 00:18:22,676 Speaker 2: this problem. 366 00:18:22,956 --> 00:18:25,716 Speaker 1: And so that I mean, so whatever the level is, right, 367 00:18:25,756 --> 00:18:27,636 Speaker 1: So you've sort of stepped through like. 368 00:18:28,316 --> 00:18:29,436 Speaker 2: There's a somewhat level. 369 00:18:29,556 --> 00:18:31,996 Speaker 1: Oh I was okay, I was already sold. What's the 370 00:18:32,036 --> 00:18:32,676 Speaker 1: fourth level? 371 00:18:32,916 --> 00:18:35,236 Speaker 2: If you were the like last person on your street 372 00:18:35,316 --> 00:18:37,476 Speaker 2: to want to do this. And by the way, all 373 00:18:37,516 --> 00:18:40,276 Speaker 2: of your neighbors are getting EV chargers installed and also 374 00:18:40,356 --> 00:18:42,876 Speaker 2: doing the service upgrades. Even if they don't care what 375 00:18:42,916 --> 00:18:44,956 Speaker 2: their stove uses, they're gonna need to get to charge 376 00:18:44,956 --> 00:18:47,556 Speaker 2: your Tesla. It's the same as a Tesla charger and 377 00:18:47,636 --> 00:18:50,516 Speaker 2: a induction stove are both like forty to sixty apps, 378 00:18:50,516 --> 00:18:52,796 Speaker 2: so it's the same. So that's the order of Magnazue 379 00:18:52,796 --> 00:18:54,996 Speaker 2: need to think. You may have to if you're the 380 00:18:55,036 --> 00:18:57,876 Speaker 2: last person, you may have to pay to upgrade the transformer. 381 00:18:58,556 --> 00:19:02,476 Speaker 2: And because we stop building stuff in America anymore, there 382 00:19:02,516 --> 00:19:04,636 Speaker 2: is an insane lead time on transformers. 383 00:19:04,636 --> 00:19:07,196 Speaker 1: Now, yeah, I mean at this point it's like whatever, 384 00:19:07,236 --> 00:19:08,836 Speaker 1: you gotta get out a rocket ship and go to 385 00:19:08,836 --> 00:19:13,716 Speaker 1: the moon. Right, So there is an idea here that 386 00:19:13,796 --> 00:19:16,836 Speaker 1: is really interesting to me, right, and to you as 387 00:19:16,876 --> 00:19:19,076 Speaker 1: well obviously, Like there's this basic idea of like, yes, 388 00:19:19,076 --> 00:19:22,316 Speaker 1: we're all going to electrifire homes over some timescale, hopefully 389 00:19:22,356 --> 00:19:26,436 Speaker 1: faster rather than slower, right, and great, and people are 390 00:19:26,436 --> 00:19:31,516 Speaker 1: figuring out, you know whatever, nice efficient ways to eat 391 00:19:31,556 --> 00:19:34,516 Speaker 1: water and dry clothes and cook food with electricity. Great, 392 00:19:34,796 --> 00:19:39,556 Speaker 1: but there's this very basic sort of last mile problem, right, 393 00:19:39,636 --> 00:19:44,516 Speaker 1: last ten feet problem of getting enough electricity just to 394 00:19:44,716 --> 00:19:49,396 Speaker 1: the stove from whatever the panel from the street that is. 395 00:19:50,876 --> 00:19:52,556 Speaker 1: That is a real problem. 396 00:19:52,836 --> 00:19:54,956 Speaker 2: I think the last ten feet problem is kind of 397 00:19:54,956 --> 00:19:56,676 Speaker 2: a way to think of like versus last mile, but 398 00:19:56,796 --> 00:19:59,236 Speaker 2: last ten feet it is like a really great way 399 00:19:59,236 --> 00:19:59,796 Speaker 2: to think about it. 400 00:19:59,836 --> 00:20:00,836 Speaker 1: And it's kind of fractal. 401 00:20:00,916 --> 00:20:01,036 Speaker 2: Right. 402 00:20:01,076 --> 00:20:03,596 Speaker 1: It's like first it's like from the from the panel 403 00:20:03,636 --> 00:20:05,916 Speaker 1: to the stove is one of them, and then like 404 00:20:05,956 --> 00:20:08,916 Speaker 1: from the panel to the street is another one, and 405 00:20:09,116 --> 00:20:10,156 Speaker 1: and uh. 406 00:20:10,956 --> 00:20:13,156 Speaker 2: From the outlet to the induction coil, because you could 407 00:20:13,156 --> 00:20:14,156 Speaker 2: make it more powerful. 408 00:20:13,916 --> 00:20:23,676 Speaker 1: Yeah, the last one. Yeah, And so the battery. Sticking 409 00:20:23,716 --> 00:20:28,516 Speaker 1: a battery on the electrical appliance becomes essentially a hack, 410 00:20:29,116 --> 00:20:33,716 Speaker 1: uh that that allows you to sidestep the problem because 411 00:20:33,756 --> 00:20:38,156 Speaker 1: you don't actually need the electricity all the time. Yes, 412 00:20:38,796 --> 00:20:42,956 Speaker 1: you don't actually need a bigger wire. You just need 413 00:20:42,996 --> 00:20:46,036 Speaker 1: to be able to store the amount of electricity that's 414 00:20:46,076 --> 00:20:47,396 Speaker 1: coming into the house now. 415 00:20:48,236 --> 00:20:51,116 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, And we've done we cook a lot in 416 00:20:51,156 --> 00:20:55,476 Speaker 2: the office with our prototypes and units we've gotten back 417 00:20:55,476 --> 00:20:57,756 Speaker 2: from manufacturer as well, and like what we found is 418 00:20:58,356 --> 00:21:01,756 Speaker 2: a normal one twenty volt outlet on a stove is 419 00:21:01,796 --> 00:21:05,636 Speaker 2: more than enough to keep the battery charged while you're cooking, 420 00:21:06,076 --> 00:21:09,516 Speaker 2: Which is counterintuitive because it turns out that like when 421 00:21:09,516 --> 00:21:13,316 Speaker 2: you're using any of these high power draw appliances, even 422 00:21:13,356 --> 00:21:15,916 Speaker 2: when they're quote unquote working, like the peak and the 423 00:21:15,996 --> 00:21:20,516 Speaker 2: average are so widely disparate that there is a huge 424 00:21:20,556 --> 00:21:22,916 Speaker 2: opportunity here. And like the big thing is, like all 425 00:21:22,956 --> 00:21:26,356 Speaker 2: of these new things we're doing to our homes for electrification, 426 00:21:26,836 --> 00:21:32,876 Speaker 2: induction stoves, heat pump water heaters, dryers, et cetera. All 427 00:21:32,916 --> 00:21:35,196 Speaker 2: of them are like high peak load. So if you 428 00:21:35,316 --> 00:21:40,316 Speaker 2: basically put what's called like a peaker power plant inside 429 00:21:40,396 --> 00:21:44,796 Speaker 2: the device when you deploy it, you've addressed that problem 430 00:21:45,076 --> 00:21:45,876 Speaker 2: as you scale. 431 00:21:46,196 --> 00:21:49,116 Speaker 1: So you're saying, like the standard way of solving this 432 00:21:49,156 --> 00:21:53,676 Speaker 1: problem of like whatever bigger panel, bigger wire coming to 433 00:21:53,756 --> 00:21:56,436 Speaker 1: your house, maybe of whatever a new transformer on your 434 00:21:56,476 --> 00:22:00,316 Speaker 1: block that is all designed to handle these just rare 435 00:22:00,436 --> 00:22:02,916 Speaker 1: moments when you have like all the burners going full 436 00:22:02,956 --> 00:22:06,836 Speaker 1: blast for a minute and it's like, no, we don't 437 00:22:06,916 --> 00:22:09,596 Speaker 1: actually have to rebuild the world around that. We can 438 00:22:09,676 --> 00:22:13,916 Speaker 1: just store up power because we're never almost never doing that. 439 00:22:13,996 --> 00:22:15,556 Speaker 1: And if you just stick a battery on it and 440 00:22:15,556 --> 00:22:17,356 Speaker 1: store up the power, that solves it. 441 00:22:19,236 --> 00:22:21,436 Speaker 2: Yep, that makes that's exactly it. 442 00:22:22,116 --> 00:22:25,316 Speaker 1: There's another thing you can do, right, which is use 443 00:22:25,396 --> 00:22:27,876 Speaker 1: that power that's in the battery, not just for the stove, 444 00:22:27,956 --> 00:22:29,996 Speaker 1: but send it where, send it to my house, send 445 00:22:30,076 --> 00:22:32,156 Speaker 1: it back to the grid, Like is what is the 446 00:22:32,196 --> 00:22:35,436 Speaker 1: other move? Once you have a battery on the stove. 447 00:22:35,516 --> 00:22:39,036 Speaker 2: You're not cooking the complete battery capacity, Like we're able 448 00:22:39,076 --> 00:22:40,596 Speaker 2: to give you like three or four meals worth of 449 00:22:40,636 --> 00:22:44,636 Speaker 2: battery storage. Huh, you're able to use the excess energy 450 00:22:44,996 --> 00:22:48,836 Speaker 2: to offset, say you're heating maybe during peak hours. So 451 00:22:48,876 --> 00:22:52,396 Speaker 2: like typically in New York and in San Francisco, in 452 00:22:52,556 --> 00:22:56,956 Speaker 2: La many places, there's widely different electricity rates depending on 453 00:22:56,996 --> 00:22:59,636 Speaker 2: if it's like noon and there's like excess solar on 454 00:22:59,676 --> 00:23:01,836 Speaker 2: the grid or at six pm and everyone just got 455 00:23:01,836 --> 00:23:03,516 Speaker 2: home and is turning on their induction star. 456 00:23:03,676 --> 00:23:09,076 Speaker 1: And this is a huge problem in energy right. In fact, 457 00:23:10,236 --> 00:23:16,876 Speaker 1: the utilities build gas fired power plants that exist only 458 00:23:16,996 --> 00:23:20,996 Speaker 1: for the moments when everybody suddenly turns everything on and 459 00:23:21,036 --> 00:23:23,196 Speaker 1: there's a huge amount of peak demand. Right there are 460 00:23:23,196 --> 00:23:27,036 Speaker 1: these peaker power plants that are inefficient and expensive, and 461 00:23:27,116 --> 00:23:30,436 Speaker 1: if we could figure out how to smooth demand from 462 00:23:30,476 --> 00:23:33,476 Speaker 1: the utility, like that would be great. Right. It's cheaper 463 00:23:33,516 --> 00:23:36,476 Speaker 1: for consumers, but it's also way more efficient. And you're saying, 464 00:23:36,516 --> 00:23:41,396 Speaker 1: these batteries on whatever, a bunch of stoves can actually 465 00:23:41,476 --> 00:23:43,796 Speaker 1: like power your house at the moment when you really 466 00:23:43,836 --> 00:23:45,556 Speaker 1: don't want to be pulling power from the grid. 467 00:23:45,836 --> 00:23:49,116 Speaker 2: We also we have inter access. We're connect to the 468 00:23:49,156 --> 00:23:52,236 Speaker 2: internet and like that. These are kind of the things 469 00:23:52,356 --> 00:23:55,116 Speaker 2: like nests does for kind of the like, uh, are 470 00:23:55,156 --> 00:23:58,156 Speaker 2: you home, how to manage kind of like the heating 471 00:23:58,156 --> 00:24:01,236 Speaker 2: in your house for like home energy optimization and saving 472 00:24:01,276 --> 00:24:03,876 Speaker 2: you money. We essentially can use some of the similar 473 00:24:03,876 --> 00:24:06,796 Speaker 2: signals to then say, hey, you're done cooking for the day, 474 00:24:07,316 --> 00:24:10,236 Speaker 2: we can drain a chunk of the rest of the battery. 475 00:24:10,316 --> 00:24:11,836 Speaker 2: Now we're going to get people options. So this is 476 00:24:11,876 --> 00:24:14,156 Speaker 2: not like done behind your back or whatever. Sure, but 477 00:24:14,196 --> 00:24:16,276 Speaker 2: the but the idea is like you then can drain 478 00:24:16,316 --> 00:24:19,836 Speaker 2: the rest of the battery to say that with that 479 00:24:19,956 --> 00:24:21,956 Speaker 2: energy being used for your HVAC or. 480 00:24:21,996 --> 00:24:25,356 Speaker 1: For so I can use the energy in the battery 481 00:24:25,396 --> 00:24:28,156 Speaker 1: on my stove to power the rest of my house. 482 00:24:28,516 --> 00:24:30,676 Speaker 2: Yeah, you're gaming PC whatever you want? 483 00:24:30,756 --> 00:24:34,236 Speaker 1: Yes, huh and that works? Now? Is that the dream? 484 00:24:34,396 --> 00:24:37,196 Speaker 1: Or like, when you start selling stoves later this year, 485 00:24:37,236 --> 00:24:37,876 Speaker 1: will that work? 486 00:24:38,356 --> 00:24:41,236 Speaker 2: Are are we're hardware able to do this? There's regulatory 487 00:24:41,396 --> 00:24:46,636 Speaker 2: compliance steps to go through on that, and we're the 488 00:24:46,716 --> 00:24:48,796 Speaker 2: goal here is to have this enabled on all of 489 00:24:48,796 --> 00:24:49,356 Speaker 2: our hardware. 490 00:24:49,756 --> 00:24:52,956 Speaker 1: So let's let's talk about the hardware. I love the dream. 491 00:24:52,996 --> 00:24:56,356 Speaker 1: I feel like we gave the dream it's due. Let's 492 00:24:57,436 --> 00:25:03,756 Speaker 1: talk about the reality. I know you started accepting pre orders, yep. 493 00:25:04,036 --> 00:25:08,076 Speaker 1: When when are like people going to be able to 494 00:25:08,116 --> 00:25:10,596 Speaker 1: get their stoves for real, like, not as a special trial, 495 00:25:10,796 --> 00:25:16,476 Speaker 1: not as like ceci Q four. Okay, how confident are 496 00:25:16,516 --> 00:25:23,756 Speaker 1: you in that verition? Very great? What do you have 497 00:25:23,796 --> 00:25:26,796 Speaker 1: to figure out between now and then? 498 00:25:27,436 --> 00:25:30,716 Speaker 2: I will speak generically because I want to I some 499 00:25:30,756 --> 00:25:32,436 Speaker 2: of this stuff is more confidential terms of where we 500 00:25:32,516 --> 00:25:35,756 Speaker 2: are in the process and how this stuff works. But 501 00:25:35,916 --> 00:25:39,036 Speaker 2: the general way you approach hardware is first you kind 502 00:25:39,076 --> 00:25:41,636 Speaker 2: of were like, does this idea work like? And so 503 00:25:41,676 --> 00:25:45,036 Speaker 2: we went and like built prototype stoves that had a 504 00:25:45,076 --> 00:25:48,156 Speaker 2: battery in them, have tested out the whole system. You 505 00:25:48,196 --> 00:25:49,956 Speaker 2: basically want to use that to figure out how to 506 00:25:49,996 --> 00:25:53,756 Speaker 2: scope out what you actually want to design now that 507 00:25:53,796 --> 00:25:55,716 Speaker 2: you know kind of the details of it. Start with that. 508 00:25:56,316 --> 00:25:58,316 Speaker 2: You then need to land the manufacturing partners that actually 509 00:25:58,356 --> 00:26:00,436 Speaker 2: scale up, and you need to actually go start doing 510 00:26:00,476 --> 00:26:04,516 Speaker 2: a sequence of builds with those manufacturing partners with kind 511 00:26:04,556 --> 00:26:07,676 Speaker 2: of like three or four month cadence where you're increasing 512 00:26:07,756 --> 00:26:10,996 Speaker 2: the fidelity of the product and increasing the fidelity of 513 00:26:10,996 --> 00:26:13,796 Speaker 2: the manufacturing process. I mean, there's then Elon quote that 514 00:26:13,836 --> 00:26:15,676 Speaker 2: I think is reasonable here, which is like the factory 515 00:26:15,836 --> 00:26:19,756 Speaker 2: is the product, but effectively it's like you need to 516 00:26:19,836 --> 00:26:23,156 Speaker 2: build the machine that builds the machine, and not just 517 00:26:23,236 --> 00:26:25,156 Speaker 2: figuring out the spec sheet of the thing that you 518 00:26:25,236 --> 00:26:27,196 Speaker 2: post on the website, but like you have to make 519 00:26:27,196 --> 00:26:30,276 Speaker 2: sure that you have confidence not just in the like, hey, 520 00:26:30,316 --> 00:26:31,636 Speaker 2: this thing is going to be the best to have ever, 521 00:26:31,756 --> 00:26:33,436 Speaker 2: but like we will also be able to deliver this 522 00:26:33,476 --> 00:26:37,876 Speaker 2: to you at at scale, reliably, et cetera. And so 523 00:26:38,116 --> 00:26:41,116 Speaker 2: we are at the point where we've figured out all 524 00:26:41,156 --> 00:26:44,036 Speaker 2: of the details that are kind of like let's call 525 00:26:44,076 --> 00:26:45,916 Speaker 2: it the major changes to the product. So it's like 526 00:26:46,396 --> 00:26:49,516 Speaker 2: the units we're building are representative of the final thing. 527 00:26:49,996 --> 00:26:52,396 Speaker 2: Then you are running through a suite of tests, some 528 00:26:52,476 --> 00:26:55,116 Speaker 2: of which are like in the lab being like, hey 529 00:26:55,156 --> 00:26:57,276 Speaker 2: does this thing scratch if I like use the wrong 530 00:26:57,356 --> 00:26:59,676 Speaker 2: cleaning agent or something. It's like it's like you're doing 531 00:26:59,876 --> 00:27:00,956 Speaker 2: a matrix of tests. 532 00:27:01,196 --> 00:27:02,276 Speaker 1: You're trying to break it. 533 00:27:02,716 --> 00:27:04,596 Speaker 2: You're trying to break it. You're trying to break it. 534 00:27:04,836 --> 00:27:06,956 Speaker 2: You're also doing software development because it's like you have 535 00:27:07,036 --> 00:27:10,116 Speaker 2: to develop this is a product that's like a connected device. 536 00:27:10,156 --> 00:27:14,436 Speaker 2: It's got a lot of software and firmware. There's a 537 00:27:14,516 --> 00:27:17,956 Speaker 2: lot of like compliance aspects of that too, So there's 538 00:27:17,996 --> 00:27:20,956 Speaker 2: code stuff. There's what's called like ul. 539 00:27:20,716 --> 00:27:23,596 Speaker 1: Like underwriters laboratory, that little thing that's on the tag 540 00:27:23,636 --> 00:27:26,236 Speaker 1: on every lamp you ever owned, right. 541 00:27:26,636 --> 00:27:28,636 Speaker 2: Like, this includes stuff like FCC, Like you have to 542 00:27:28,636 --> 00:27:30,716 Speaker 2: make sure that you pass FCC. 543 00:27:30,676 --> 00:27:33,276 Speaker 1: If you have a ready communications commission because it because 544 00:27:33,316 --> 00:27:35,676 Speaker 1: it's like Wi Fi enabled or something. 545 00:27:35,476 --> 00:27:36,916 Speaker 2: It's not just as Wi Fi. If it has an 546 00:27:36,956 --> 00:27:39,036 Speaker 2: induction coil, you have to make sure that it's like 547 00:27:39,356 --> 00:27:42,316 Speaker 2: you know, like it's not gonna jam your WiFi by accident. 548 00:27:42,356 --> 00:27:45,196 Speaker 2: It's all of these sort of there's there's a huge 549 00:27:45,236 --> 00:27:47,356 Speaker 2: host of details here that you have to get right. 550 00:27:47,756 --> 00:27:49,476 Speaker 2: And it's not just checking all the boxes. It's also 551 00:27:49,476 --> 00:27:52,636 Speaker 2: making sure the product is safe, right like like it's 552 00:27:52,676 --> 00:27:56,356 Speaker 2: like safe safe and so doing all of that is 553 00:27:56,916 --> 00:27:58,956 Speaker 2: a process into itself. 554 00:27:58,836 --> 00:28:03,116 Speaker 1: And so so you have a lot to do. Fine, Uh, 555 00:28:03,156 --> 00:28:04,236 Speaker 1: how much is it going to cost? 556 00:28:04,476 --> 00:28:06,636 Speaker 2: We are currently selling units on our website for fifty 557 00:28:06,676 --> 00:28:10,836 Speaker 2: five This is normal for high end induction stoves. So 558 00:28:10,876 --> 00:28:12,636 Speaker 2: if you look at if you look at some of 559 00:28:12,676 --> 00:28:15,156 Speaker 2: the top brands in the industry, this is what they 560 00:28:15,196 --> 00:28:16,516 Speaker 2: sell for similar scope. 561 00:28:16,356 --> 00:28:18,076 Speaker 1: You could get a nice one for half of that. 562 00:28:18,116 --> 00:28:19,996 Speaker 1: Certainly you can get a nice one for It's just 563 00:28:20,036 --> 00:28:21,636 Speaker 1: a stove, to be clear, it's not an. 564 00:28:21,556 --> 00:28:26,716 Speaker 2: Oven, yes exactly. Now that's the headline price. Now, a 565 00:28:26,756 --> 00:28:29,276 Speaker 2: big change that the Inflation Reduction Act did has to 566 00:28:29,276 --> 00:28:32,876 Speaker 2: do with batteries. There's a thirty percent tax credit for 567 00:28:33,076 --> 00:28:34,356 Speaker 2: battery products. 568 00:28:34,756 --> 00:28:36,476 Speaker 1: And so do you get thirty percent off the whole 569 00:28:37,436 --> 00:28:38,476 Speaker 1: stove as a result. 570 00:28:38,556 --> 00:28:41,876 Speaker 2: We're working through the specific details, but as it stands now, 571 00:28:41,916 --> 00:28:46,996 Speaker 2: I believe so. And then additionally, the IRA takes off 572 00:28:46,996 --> 00:28:49,756 Speaker 2: eight hundred and forty dollars via rebate if you have 573 00:28:49,796 --> 00:28:51,316 Speaker 2: a gas stove and you want to switch to this. 574 00:28:51,676 --> 00:28:53,396 Speaker 1: So that that's going to help you a lot. 575 00:28:54,436 --> 00:28:57,236 Speaker 2: That's the first piece. And then the second piece is 576 00:28:57,236 --> 00:28:59,436 Speaker 2: because you're putting a battery in your home. Once we 577 00:28:59,556 --> 00:29:04,036 Speaker 2: kind of have the deployment with battery storage and all 578 00:29:04,036 --> 00:29:07,196 Speaker 2: this other stuff working, you can save money on your 579 00:29:07,276 --> 00:29:11,316 Speaker 2: energy bill at the like and depending on where you 580 00:29:11,356 --> 00:29:14,796 Speaker 2: live and what your rate disparities are and what other 581 00:29:14,836 --> 00:29:17,156 Speaker 2: program there's other programs for virtual power plants and all 582 00:29:17,156 --> 00:29:21,996 Speaker 2: this other stuff. There's potentially a like thousands of dollars 583 00:29:22,036 --> 00:29:25,756 Speaker 2: in like savings you can have on energy costs over 584 00:29:25,796 --> 00:29:26,716 Speaker 2: the lifetime of the product. 585 00:29:26,956 --> 00:29:30,996 Speaker 1: And will that will that kind of dynamic use of 586 00:29:31,116 --> 00:29:35,436 Speaker 1: the battery be ready I know it'll be technically ready 587 00:29:35,436 --> 00:29:37,116 Speaker 1: to go from the point of view of the stove 588 00:29:37,236 --> 00:29:40,756 Speaker 1: and the battery when you ship, we'll will. 589 00:29:40,596 --> 00:29:43,116 Speaker 2: Have we will have a subset of that all ready 590 00:29:43,116 --> 00:29:44,276 Speaker 2: to go at ship date. 591 00:29:44,396 --> 00:29:48,636 Speaker 1: And will the sort of like utility regulatory whatever side 592 00:29:48,676 --> 00:29:50,556 Speaker 1: be be ready then? Or is that going to take 593 00:29:50,636 --> 00:29:52,356 Speaker 1: like forever because it's utility. 594 00:29:51,996 --> 00:29:54,116 Speaker 2: It's not gonna take. It's not gonna take forever. There 595 00:29:54,196 --> 00:29:56,956 Speaker 2: is a path to making a let's call it the 596 00:29:56,996 --> 00:29:59,676 Speaker 2: eighty twenty version of this work. Yeah, very fast. 597 00:29:59,956 --> 00:30:01,676 Speaker 1: There's a version where you can do a lot of it. 598 00:30:02,236 --> 00:30:04,636 Speaker 2: Yeah soon. Yeah, okay, And I think that's actually that's 599 00:30:04,636 --> 00:30:06,196 Speaker 2: something that we're keeping a little close to the chest 600 00:30:06,276 --> 00:30:08,836 Speaker 2: until we're further along. Can tell on to talk about that. 601 00:30:08,916 --> 00:30:14,676 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you're gonna ship stoves to people on or 602 00:30:14,716 --> 00:30:19,556 Speaker 1: before December thirty first, twenty twenty four. What are you 603 00:30:19,596 --> 00:30:20,316 Speaker 1: going to do next? 604 00:30:20,596 --> 00:30:25,956 Speaker 2: We're evaluating other form factors of like appliances. I mean, 605 00:30:26,156 --> 00:30:27,756 Speaker 2: I'll say, I'll give you a freebie as we're definitely 606 00:30:27,756 --> 00:30:29,476 Speaker 2: gonna be doing an oven and I want to have 607 00:30:29,516 --> 00:30:31,156 Speaker 2: a pizza mode for that. But like you get the 608 00:30:31,156 --> 00:30:31,876 Speaker 2: idea there. 609 00:30:31,876 --> 00:30:33,516 Speaker 1: Right, because I mean, so what you're selling now is 610 00:30:33,676 --> 00:30:36,116 Speaker 1: just a cook top, right, so the oven would actually 611 00:30:36,196 --> 00:30:38,076 Speaker 1: be the obvious next one, so that you could sell 612 00:30:38,116 --> 00:30:41,436 Speaker 1: the range, right, the stovetop and oven, Like, what's the 613 00:30:41,556 --> 00:30:42,636 Speaker 1: constraint there? 614 00:30:43,636 --> 00:30:46,636 Speaker 2: You literally need to have a much bigger logistical footprint 615 00:30:46,716 --> 00:30:47,596 Speaker 2: as a business. 616 00:30:48,316 --> 00:30:50,116 Speaker 1: What is a happy story to you of how the 617 00:30:50,116 --> 00:30:51,476 Speaker 1: world looks in five years? 618 00:30:51,756 --> 00:30:53,796 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think I think the happy story is 619 00:30:53,836 --> 00:30:57,356 Speaker 2: like if you can go get a substantial fraction of 620 00:30:57,516 --> 00:31:01,436 Speaker 2: appliance installs, but like if a company can get like 621 00:31:01,476 --> 00:31:04,796 Speaker 2: a million homes with this with and we're able to 622 00:31:04,836 --> 00:31:07,876 Speaker 2: connect the batteries in a way where they're able to 623 00:31:07,916 --> 00:31:10,476 Speaker 2: do kind of the equivalent of vehicle to home type thing. 624 00:31:10,956 --> 00:31:14,836 Speaker 2: You're in a spot where you have enough storage to 625 00:31:14,916 --> 00:31:16,756 Speaker 2: be kind of a big player on the grid. 626 00:31:17,196 --> 00:31:19,116 Speaker 1: That's the real the real game for you is not 627 00:31:19,236 --> 00:31:21,956 Speaker 1: the stove. It's not bringing the power in. It's sending 628 00:31:21,996 --> 00:31:24,236 Speaker 1: the power back out. That's that's your reeling gig. 629 00:31:24,316 --> 00:31:26,276 Speaker 2: It's both, it's both, it's both and so it's like 630 00:31:26,396 --> 00:31:29,676 Speaker 2: it's like you make the stove that is the best 631 00:31:29,676 --> 00:31:33,436 Speaker 2: stove that is also the easiest to install stove. Yeah, 632 00:31:33,476 --> 00:31:36,356 Speaker 2: and then you basically are just deploying more batteries than 633 00:31:36,356 --> 00:31:37,476 Speaker 2: anyone else on the grid. 634 00:31:38,156 --> 00:31:40,916 Speaker 1: Through that hook, there's a universe where you're not just 635 00:31:40,956 --> 00:31:44,316 Speaker 1: a stove company. You impost labs are selling electricity into 636 00:31:44,316 --> 00:31:46,676 Speaker 1: the grid, and the electricity is coming from the stoves 637 00:31:46,676 --> 00:31:49,556 Speaker 1: of your customers who are in somehow participating in this. 638 00:31:49,596 --> 00:31:51,516 Speaker 1: Maybe they're getting some of the revenue, say. 639 00:31:51,836 --> 00:31:54,036 Speaker 2: Exactly, or they got a discount on the product, or 640 00:31:54,116 --> 00:31:57,076 Speaker 2: there's some incentive structure. We are yes, that's I think 641 00:31:57,116 --> 00:31:58,276 Speaker 2: that's one hundred percent correct. 642 00:32:02,076 --> 00:32:15,196 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a minute with the light ground. Okay, 643 00:32:15,236 --> 00:32:17,556 Speaker 1: let's do the lightning round. What kind of stove views 644 00:32:17,556 --> 00:32:17,876 Speaker 1: at home? 645 00:32:19,876 --> 00:32:22,156 Speaker 2: Okay, this is going to change in like soon, But 646 00:32:23,036 --> 00:32:28,676 Speaker 2: it's a Viking four burner, say it's it's a Viking 647 00:32:28,716 --> 00:32:30,076 Speaker 2: four burners stove. 648 00:32:29,956 --> 00:32:34,116 Speaker 1: Gas gas gas gas stove. It's a great stove. That's 649 00:32:34,156 --> 00:32:35,116 Speaker 1: a fancy stove. 650 00:32:35,276 --> 00:32:37,636 Speaker 2: It takes it takes six and a half minutes to 651 00:32:37,716 --> 00:32:39,556 Speaker 2: boil a liter of water on the same pan. It 652 00:32:39,596 --> 00:32:43,116 Speaker 2: takes forty seconds for our stove to do what. 653 00:32:43,116 --> 00:32:45,476 Speaker 1: What's like a go to weeknight dinner to cook for you. 654 00:32:47,636 --> 00:32:49,796 Speaker 2: I've had less time to do that more recently, but 655 00:32:49,836 --> 00:32:51,196 Speaker 2: I do like doing stir fry stuff. 656 00:32:51,596 --> 00:32:54,636 Speaker 1: Is it right that you worked on on Google Glass? Yes, 657 00:32:55,156 --> 00:32:57,356 Speaker 1: so Google Glass was a long time and I was 658 00:32:57,596 --> 00:33:01,716 Speaker 1: ten years ago. Maybe. Uh it's basically augmented reality glasses. 659 00:33:01,796 --> 00:33:01,996 Speaker 2: Right. 660 00:33:02,196 --> 00:33:07,116 Speaker 1: Yeah, it didn't work, right, the Google Glass doesn't exist today. 661 00:33:07,196 --> 00:33:09,236 Speaker 1: I don't mean it didn't work technically, I mean and 662 00:33:09,276 --> 00:33:13,236 Speaker 1: it didn't catch on. Uh So I'm curious, what is 663 00:33:13,236 --> 00:33:16,996 Speaker 1: something you learned from from the failure of Google Less. 664 00:33:17,156 --> 00:33:20,036 Speaker 2: I definitely look back fondly to days when Google was 665 00:33:20,076 --> 00:33:23,756 Speaker 2: like will like to do like extremely ambitious, like stick 666 00:33:23,796 --> 00:33:25,996 Speaker 2: their neck out things, and I hope that with all 667 00:33:26,036 --> 00:33:27,836 Speaker 2: this AI stuff happening, they're gonna do that again. And 668 00:33:27,836 --> 00:33:29,516 Speaker 2: it seems like it might it might be happening, which 669 00:33:29,516 --> 00:33:29,956 Speaker 2: is kind of cool. 670 00:33:30,036 --> 00:33:33,716 Speaker 1: Oh interesting, like like weird, kind of ahead of their 671 00:33:33,756 --> 00:33:34,556 Speaker 1: time experiment. 672 00:33:34,756 --> 00:33:37,916 Speaker 2: Keep Google weird is like my like protest protest statement. 673 00:33:38,316 --> 00:33:40,476 Speaker 2: We Also, because I was on the Camera Harbor team, 674 00:33:40,556 --> 00:33:42,196 Speaker 2: we actually had the opportunity to speck out this one 675 00:33:42,236 --> 00:33:45,836 Speaker 2: camera module. This is a trivia thing, this one camera 676 00:33:45,836 --> 00:33:48,756 Speaker 2: module that went into this thing called Project Tango, which 677 00:33:48,796 --> 00:33:51,316 Speaker 2: is this very future looking remember you know, like ar 678 00:33:51,436 --> 00:33:52,996 Speaker 2: kit on your phone where you can do like the 679 00:33:53,316 --> 00:33:54,996 Speaker 2: measure app on your iPhone and stuff that was like 680 00:33:54,996 --> 00:33:57,436 Speaker 2: the first version. The first version of like ar on 681 00:33:57,516 --> 00:34:00,396 Speaker 2: phones was done at Google. We specked out a special 682 00:34:00,436 --> 00:34:03,996 Speaker 2: camera for that. That same camera ended up on the 683 00:34:04,196 --> 00:34:06,636 Speaker 2: Ingenuity helicopter on Mars. 684 00:34:07,116 --> 00:34:09,356 Speaker 1: That's fun. So you're saying you worked on a hell 685 00:34:09,396 --> 00:34:10,796 Speaker 1: you worked on a camera that wound up on a 686 00:34:10,836 --> 00:34:13,076 Speaker 1: helicopter on Mars. Yes, oh fun? 687 00:34:13,236 --> 00:34:15,036 Speaker 2: Okay as an intern. 688 00:34:14,956 --> 00:34:17,036 Speaker 1: Great, anything else you want to talk about. 689 00:34:19,116 --> 00:34:21,156 Speaker 2: We covered a huge amount of stuff. 690 00:34:21,156 --> 00:34:23,036 Speaker 1: This is we did good work. We did go work here. 691 00:34:23,436 --> 00:34:26,076 Speaker 1: Delight to talk to you. Thank you for your time. 692 00:34:26,996 --> 00:34:27,596 Speaker 2: Thanks so much. 693 00:34:34,636 --> 00:34:38,276 Speaker 1: Sam Dimico is the founder and CEO of Impulse Labs. 694 00:34:39,436 --> 00:34:42,636 Speaker 1: Today's show was produced by Gabriel Hunter Chang. It was 695 00:34:42,796 --> 00:34:46,036 Speaker 1: edited by Lydia Jean Kott and engineered by Sarah Buguer. 696 00:34:46,476 --> 00:34:49,876 Speaker 1: You can email us at Problem at Pushkin dot FM. 697 00:34:49,996 --> 00:34:52,756 Speaker 1: I'm Jacob Goldstein and we'll be back next week with 698 00:34:52,796 --> 00:35:04,236 Speaker 1: another episode of What's Your Problem