WEBVTT - Is Golf Still Booming? 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.520 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. 0:00:02.640 --> 0:00:04.920 When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:06.960 And when I find my ball in a brid Egg 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:10.600 Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Frida Egg, Frida Egg, Egg, 0:00:10.640 --> 0:00:11.840 Frida Egg, Bride Egg. 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:13.680 Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the hump. 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:38.239 Welcome to the Frida Egg Podcast. I'm Garrett Morrison, and 0:00:38.280 --> 0:00:40.720 today we're checking in on the health of the golf 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:45.000 industry as a whole. So during the COVID nineteen pandemic, 0:00:45.320 --> 0:00:50.200 recreational golf had a major moment. People were working from home, 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:53.519 desperate to get outside, and golf was one of the 0:00:53.560 --> 0:00:57.800 few safe activities available. We saw rounds go up, we 0:00:57.840 --> 0:01:01.640 saw equipment sales boom. We saw things in twenty twenty 0:01:01.680 --> 0:01:05.600 and twenty twenty one basically that we haven't seen since Tigermania. 0:01:06.080 --> 0:01:09.399 And the big question going into twenty twenty two was 0:01:09.440 --> 0:01:12.280 whether the golf industry could keep it up. Here to 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:15.160 talk with me about whether it has is Greg Nathan 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:19.319 Greg is the chief business Officer of the National Golf Foundation, 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:22.480 which does research on the business of the game. He's 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:25.360 been with the NNGF for fifteen years and has a 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:28.720 very informed view of where the golf industry has been 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:33.119 recently and is right now. So Greg, first of all, 0:01:33.280 --> 0:01:36.160 could you give me a basic sense of what the 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:39.480 National Golf Foundation does? I know that's a big question, 0:01:39.600 --> 0:01:43.360 but what's the kind of elevator pitch for the National 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:44.040 Golf Foundation? 0:01:44.640 --> 0:01:47.840 Thanks Garrett Love the Friday. Thanks for having me on. 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:51.600 First of all, you know the NGF, We're eighty six 0:01:51.760 --> 0:01:56.160 years old right now, known primarily for being the independent 0:01:56.160 --> 0:01:59.440 and objective reporter on the vital sign to the golf economy. 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:03.760 And just like any industry, you have to look at 0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:07.840 the look at the dynamics of supply and demand in 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:10.480 order to figure out what's going on, what's in balance, 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:15.320 what's out of balance, And any business that operates in 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:19.040 golf those who like to have data and an independent 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:22.040 point of view on where things are. That's what the 0:02:22.240 --> 0:02:26.720 NGF is best known for. We are the association for 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:30.920 the golf business. And what's unique is that we're the 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:34.480 only organization that works with every vertical. So whether you're 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:37.680 a golf course owner, an operator, you're a retailer, you 0:02:37.720 --> 0:02:42.800 make clubs and balls, irrigation, mowing equipment, chemicals, et cetera, 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:46.120 et cetera. We work with the leaders in each one 0:02:46.160 --> 0:02:49.840 of those spaces. So personally, when you love golf, when 0:02:49.840 --> 0:02:53.160 you're a golf crazy lunatic and you love business, I'm 0:02:53.160 --> 0:02:55.760 one of the luckiest people on earth. Excellent. 0:02:55.840 --> 0:03:00.560 So we're talking today mainly about the impact of the 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:05.000 pandemic on the golf industry and how the golf industry 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:09.480 is doing as the danger of the pandemic kind of subsides. Right, 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:13.720 we're entering a new era in golf, it feels like. 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:16.840 And so just to set that up, could you give 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:19.560 me an idea of what the basic condition of the 0:03:19.600 --> 0:03:23.240 golf industry was before COVID nineteen hit. 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:29.720 I would have answered that question pretty similarly. For let's 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:32.840 just say the five years prior to the pandemic, I 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:37.400 would have said that golf is competitive. What you had 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:42.800 leading into the pandemic was since two thousand and six, 0:03:43.200 --> 0:03:47.080 you had more closures than openings on an annual basis 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:50.720 starting in two thousand and six, and you had a 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:57.560 stable green grass golf participation dynamic. You know, somewhere between 0:03:57.840 --> 0:04:03.360 twenty three and twenty twenty four million green grass golf participants. 0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:05.160 So if you think about what we do in the 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:07.920 supplying demand sides of the economy. That's the simplest way 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:11.400 to look at it. And as it relates to rounds, 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:16.400 the weather has the largest effect on rounds played from 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:21.760 year to year when you have a stable base of participants. 0:04:22.400 --> 0:04:25.960 So that's really the main dynamics that we're dealing with. 0:04:26.440 --> 0:04:29.600 You had a zero sum game to a degree in 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:32.680 terms of golf businesses who are selling things to golfers 0:04:32.960 --> 0:04:37.080 because roughly the same number of customers out there, and Garrett, 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:38.640 even the way that we look at it is if 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:42.800 you say that there's twenty five million en course golfers, 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:47.120 half of that number, you know, twelve to thirteen million 0:04:47.560 --> 0:04:51.120 spends ninety percent of the money in golf and plays 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:54.600 over ninety percent of the rounds. So that's what I 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:57.400 mean when I say competitive. And then on the golf 0:04:57.440 --> 0:04:59.880 course side, we deal with a lot of folks who 0:04:59.880 --> 0:05:04.320 are suppliers to golf courses, whether they sell mowers or 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:08.560 irrigation systems or software. And if you have a declining 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:13.760 net number of golf facilities, you would understand why that's 0:05:13.800 --> 0:05:18.000 a competitive environment too. So that's sort of the lead in. 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:21.480 You know, some people have it in their heads that 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:26.240 every business in golf should be successful, and that's this 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:31.800 doesn't make sense relative to any economy or any industry. 0:05:32.760 --> 0:05:36.480 So the narrative of this is the other main thing 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:40.080 I'll touch on leading into the pandemic is the narrative 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:44.080 about golf. The media coverage of golf, and I'm not 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:48.240 talking about golf media was extremely negative. 0:05:50.040 --> 0:05:53.480 There's a kind of trope in not golf media, as 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:57.760 you say, but general national media. There's a trope about 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:01.000 how golf is dying, or at least there was before 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:03.840 the pandemic. This was an article that would pop up 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:07.000 every few years or so in a major publication. Where 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:08.520 do you think that came from. 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:13.920 An easy one to pick, Garrett, is that the course 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:18.239 is closing. Okay. So the fact that courses, more courses 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:21.640 were closing than opening between two thousand and six to 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:27.200 the present created a thing, an event that was happening 0:06:27.240 --> 0:06:31.680 in markets all around the country where, oh wow, this 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:35.640 golf course closed, Golf must be in trouble, okay, When 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:40.600 the truth was very different, and you won't be surprised 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:44.120 to know that. You know, sometimes journalists who have that 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:46.120 they don't want to let the facts get in the 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:52.440 way of their agenda, and so they wouldn't always call 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:56.000 us for perspective. And the perspective that we would have 0:06:56.120 --> 0:07:01.159 given is that golf experienced this massive golf course building 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:04.599 boom between nineteen eighty six and two thousand and five, 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:10.160 where more than four thousand new golf courses came into 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:15.040 the population of places where people could play. So someone 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:18.320 who was a developer, they would build a golf course there. 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:21.280 Let's say Nicholas or Rhys Jones or Tom Fasia were 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:24.080 building a lot of golf courses at that time to 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:28.280 have an amenity with a big name to sell real 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:31.880 estate and homes, and so they knew that they were 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:33.800 going to sell the homes and then they were going 0:07:33.840 --> 0:07:38.000 to get out a dodge. Okay, So the due diligence 0:07:38.040 --> 0:07:41.840 required as to whether this particular market could sustain another 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:46.840 golf course was not the most relevant conversation. So what 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:49.920 happens when supply and demand get out of whack. There's 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:54.000 a natural correction that happens. Every one of those businesses 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:58.320 cannot be successful. And most of those courses that were 0:07:58.360 --> 0:08:01.840 Bill Garrett, let's just say there wasn't a lot of 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:06.760 accessible affordable golf built during that time. It was a 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:10.600 lot of the same really high end product, expensive to build, 0:08:10.680 --> 0:08:16.160 expensive to maintain, high green sphae, and while the demand 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:20.920 for that was significant, it gets fulfilled. And so when 0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:23.320 you think this is all about that negative narrative, a 0:08:23.400 --> 0:08:27.080 lot of it can be spurred on by a course 0:08:27.160 --> 0:08:31.720 in Des Moin closing and the media picking up on 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:34.440 that and saying, oh wow, GoF is dying, but they 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:38.920 don't reference the fact that eight new eighteen hole golf 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:42.520 courses were opened in Des Moines in a twenty year 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:46.560 period without a massive increase in the number of golfers. 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:50.959 So that's that's one thing, and then the other real quickly, 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:57.280 Garrett would be Look, golf is not without its baggage. Okay, 0:08:57.320 --> 0:09:01.679 So whether you think about golf being perceived by some 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:07.240 as racist, sex, is bad for the environment, a number 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:11.200 of things that sometimes people will touch on, Whereas the 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:14.480 truth is three out of every four golf courses in 0:09:14.520 --> 0:09:17.839 America is open to the public. The average cost of 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:21.520 a round of golf is under forty dollars. So there's 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:26.360 certain things that are skewed just because golf became a 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:29.360 magnet for some of that negativity as a result of 0:09:29.480 --> 0:09:31.720 just the way that people think about things they're not 0:09:31.840 --> 0:09:32.439 involved with. 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:36.080 And I would say that those perceptions come from somewhere, 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:40.200 There are some legitimate sources of that perception, and that 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:43.560 perhaps golf needs to do a better job of putting 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:48.000 forward some of the positive side of its image right, 0:09:48.280 --> 0:09:52.600 and the golf industry has not always been particularly proactive 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:56.920 in putting that counter narrative forward. But to get back 0:09:56.920 --> 0:10:00.439 to what you're saying about golf course development in the nineties, 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:03.720 especially eighties, nineties, maybe early two thousands, I find it 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:08.840 really interesting what you're saying is that we didn't necessarily 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:13.520 overbuild golf courses in general. We overbuilt a certain kind 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:18.000 of golf course. We overbuilt kind of high end residential 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:19.760 golf courses. Is that accurate? 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:24.120 I think you could argue, just by looking at golf's 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:27.640 equilibrium being out of whack, that there was there was 0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:32.920 an overbuild relative to satisfy having the right number of 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:37.920 eighteen whole equivalents to satisfy demand. But what I am 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:43.959 saying is that in order to grow golf participation, accessible 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:48.640 and affordable golf is what is required, that what that 0:10:48.800 --> 0:10:52.880 is what helps to grow people engaging in the game 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:57.280 one part of that formula. And so if you're consistently 0:10:57.320 --> 0:11:01.720 building a homogeneous product, you're going to end up with 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:03.559 a bit of an issue. 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:08.080 Let's fast forward to twenty twenty. Give me a sense 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:10.679 for what happened there. Obviously, for a while, a lot 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:13.439 of golf courses were shut down, and it was unclear 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:17.320 where this was going. But in the summer of twenty twenty, 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:23.000 something unexpected, at least to me, happened, and recreational golf 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:26.720 saw a real boom in popularity. So from your perspective 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:29.040 at the NGF, what happened there. 0:11:29.960 --> 0:11:32.120 The way that I like to look at it is 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:37.079 that the pandemic actually created a situation where golf's amazing 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:41.920 intrinsic values, the things that attract people to the game, 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:46.000 became so front and center and needed. So what I'm 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:53.120 talking about is an activity that outdoor exercise can be 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:58.800 an outlet for competition. It's social, and it's naturally social 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:03.880 distance and say you don't share equipment. And so golf 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:08.439 showed itself for many of the great things that attracts 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:13.160 us to it because we had this amazing opportunity where 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:18.640 everything else shut down and NGNGF has been studying what 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:23.319 we call latent demand. What the latent demand measure is 0:12:23.320 --> 0:12:28.240 is how many Americans who don't currently play golf have 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:32.000 interest in playing golf on a golf course. And so 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:36.040 that number the number one answer of people who don't 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:38.920 currently play but are interested in playing golf on a 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:43.920 golf course. I mean, it's sixteen, seventeen, eighteen million Americans. 0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:47.079 So there are the interest in the game has been 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:50.640 very high, and during the pandemic, they had more flexibility 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:55.920 to play time wise, work from home wise, and golf 0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:59.960 was allowed to stay open because of the safety factor. 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:02.760 So in a way, it was the perfect storm to 0:13:02.840 --> 0:13:05.800 remind people, hey, I really should get out on the 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:08.199 golf course. It's something I can do that has all 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:12.920 these great qualities. So golf was very well positioned, just 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:15.400 through the way it is the dynamics of the game. 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:18.920 What were the demographics of the people who came back 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:21.960 to golf or who picked up the game for the 0:13:21.960 --> 0:13:25.960 first time during this period. Where was the demographic of 0:13:25.960 --> 0:13:31.280 that population different from what we saw previously from golf. 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:34.559 The best answer I can give you on that, Garrett, 0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:40.360 is there were some notable cohorts that grew during the 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:44.520 COVID period. You know, we grew by about six hundred 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:50.560 thousand juniors, about six hundred thousand female players, and we 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:55.400 grew by about four hundred thousand in non Caucasian You 0:13:55.520 --> 0:14:00.120 could argue that there is the effect of top golf 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:04.400 and other alternative forms of the game. And what I 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:09.120 mean by that is that we've studied off course participation 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:12.800 for many years, and if you look at the demographics 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:14.920 of those who go to top golf or those who 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:19.200 play in simulators or driving ranges, it's much more of 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:23.920 what the encourse game wants. It's younger, it's more female, 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:28.600 it's more minority. So you could argue that the table 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:31.920 was set nicely by people starting to be engaged in 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:37.400 the game in different ways from different demographics. That the pandemic, 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:40.640 you know, was a situation that you know, I like 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:42.880 to say, got them from the couch to the course 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:46.640 in a way that previously they may not have done that. 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:50.160 But when you're home and you're stir crazy and you 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:53.640 are interested in golf and you've hit a ball before 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:57.680 with a real club, boom, okay, here's this opportunity, and 0:14:57.720 --> 0:15:02.600 golf is ubiquitous. Garrett there really isn't any market in 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:04.760 the US that doesn't have a place for you to 0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:08.640 go play, and so boom, there you go. 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:13.000 We saw this growth during twenty twenty, or these promising 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:17.239 signs during twenty twenty, how would you say that continued 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:20.960 or changed in twenty twenty one, Because by the summer 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:25.880 of twenty twenty one, vaccines were starting to become more 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:30.440 widespread and the danger of the pandemic had kind of 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:33.920 tapered off a little bit. And so twenty twenty one 0:15:34.080 --> 0:15:37.480 was kind of this interesting period I think for golf, 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:41.000 where that initial impetus to get out on the course 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:44.000 because it was maybe one of the only activities available 0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:47.800 to you, wasn't there as much because other things were 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:51.040 starting to come back online. So what did you make 0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:51.280 of that? 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:55.880 Well, I'll start with a little perspective just in terms 0:15:55.880 --> 0:16:00.480 of quantifying the activity. So in twenty two twenty, you 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:04.240 had fifty percent half of golf courses in America closed 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:09.640 during the real you know, March April of twenty twenty, 0:16:09.960 --> 0:16:14.080 and so we were down tracking down twenty million rounds 0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:20.119 in twenty twenty, and we ended up up sixty million rounds. 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:24.600 So that's a full eighty million round swing in that 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:28.520 period of time, finishing the year up fourteen percent in 0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:34.040 twenty twenty, and that's the biggest rounds played increase, you 0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:36.800 know it rivals where we were back in the Tiger 0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:39.760 the Tiger Boom days. So if you think about the 0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:42.840 end of twenty twenty where this happened, there would have 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:46.600 been a lot of discussion or thinking about, Wow, what's 0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:48.760 going to happen in twenty twenty one? Can we go 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:51.960 up more than that? And the answer ended up being yes, 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:55.320 it went up another five percent in rounds in twenty 0:16:55.400 --> 0:17:00.160 twenty one. Now, I will tell you that in both 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:03.400 of those years twenty twenty and twenty twenty one, the 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:09.040 weather was extraordinarily favorable for golf. So in twenty twenty, 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:12.439 the one I just said was up fourteen percent, we 0:17:12.520 --> 0:17:16.520 probably would have been up five six seven percent anyway. 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:21.280 So because golf has some positive things going for it 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:25.040 at this point, is that why you think that there 0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:29.040 is the potential for more stability going forward, even if 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:31.080 say we hit a recession again. 0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:35.280 Golf is certainly not recession proof. That's proven to be 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:40.720 the case. But you've got pretty much improved balance between 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:44.159 supply and demand now than you had for the recession 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:47.719 in eight oh nine. So that's that's a real plus 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:51.960 for stability, and because golf is a pay for play activity, 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:56.719 attracts people who have a little bit of money, and 0:17:56.760 --> 0:17:59.960 an activity like golf would be one of the last 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:03.560 to be impacted heavily by recession and one of the 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:06.240 first to come out when it ends. 0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:10.080 All right, so why don't we get some details on 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:13.320 twenty twenty two. So far, we're at the end of 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:17.359 the summer and we've gotten a sense for what golf 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:19.960 looks like in twenty twenty two at this point, even 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:23.440 if the year isn't over. So how would you assess 0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:27.720 twenty twenty two in comparison to twenty and twenty one? 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:31.119 You mentioned earlier that the weather for the past couple 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:37.360 of years was good at an unsustainable rate. Twenty twenty two, 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:40.679 my sense is that in general the weather hasn't been 0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:44.520 as favorable, and that's you know, obviously not great for 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:48.879 rounds played. But even factoring that in, how has the 0:18:49.400 --> 0:18:53.080 performance of the golf industry been this year so far? 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:56.919 Well as the as the organization as NGF, being the 0:18:57.000 --> 0:19:00.280 organization for businesses, I can tell you that the businesses 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:03.879 feel quite good about twenty twenty two in terms of 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:07.640 their performance. Rounds have been down because the weather has 0:19:07.720 --> 0:19:10.800 not been as good. Rounds are down about four percent 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:16.960 roughly year to date, but t sheets have been so full, 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:22.120 so much more full than they have been that the courses, 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:26.000 as I said, have been able to get higher rates, 0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:31.639 and private clubs have been very heavily utilized. So the 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:34.680 people who work at the golf course, Garrett, have been 0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:38.320 really busy, and I would say they're a bit tired. 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:42.320 And so the fact that rounds might be modulating a 0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:46.040 little bit for some of those people, it's a little 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:50.840 bit of a breath while they're still making some money. Now. 0:19:51.359 --> 0:19:54.439 Something near and dear to both FRIEDA Egg's part and 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:58.199 my part are what's going on with golf courses. And 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:02.960 we have noticed recently the last couple years the trajectory 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:08.520 of the closures has really flattened out. When we look 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:11.840 at our estimates through the year of the number of 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:16.840 closures that we'll have by year's end, it's significantly lower. 0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:23.080 We're tracking to be around ninety five eighteen whole equivalent 0:20:23.119 --> 0:20:27.160 closures this year, which would be the fewest since two 0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:31.600 thousand and five. The closures now are also quite different 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:35.680 than they were. The closures were a natural correction from 0:20:35.720 --> 0:20:38.679 the imbalance of supply and demand, but that's pretty much 0:20:38.760 --> 0:20:41.520 played its way out. So the interesting thing is that 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:46.320 the closures now, they're not generally sob stories. They are 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:50.720 situations where as we say, the dirt is worth more 0:20:50.760 --> 0:20:55.080 than the grass, So it's generally going to be a property, 0:20:55.080 --> 0:20:59.600 a golf course that's not as competitive in their local market. 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:03.960 You know, they've built five, six, eight, twelve new courses 0:21:04.000 --> 0:21:07.880 in the past thirty years in these markets, and some 0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:10.399 of them they're just not They're not going to be 0:21:10.440 --> 0:21:14.760 competitive anymore. And eighty plus percent of golf courses are 0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:18.680 independently owned and operated. So the Johnson family who owned 0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:22.320 a particular golf course for the last fifty years, finally 0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:26.040 can sell that golf course to a developer. And so 0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:29.639 even though we may have ninety five closures, when you 0:21:29.760 --> 0:21:34.800 have sixteen thousand golf courses, that's a really tiny amount. 0:21:35.040 --> 0:21:37.600 And they're not all bad stories. In fact, most of 0:21:37.640 --> 0:21:38.800 them are good stories. 0:21:38.880 --> 0:21:43.199 Now, hey there, wanted to pop in real quick to 0:21:43.240 --> 0:21:45.760 talk about something that's going on in the Frida Egg 0:21:45.920 --> 0:21:49.680 Pro shop. We have our new fall line of merchandise 0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:54.080 coming out next week Tuesday, September thirteenth. We're going to 0:21:54.160 --> 0:21:59.399 have vests, long sleeve t shirts, performance sweatshirts, new winter hats, 0:21:59.640 --> 0:22:04.280 drink where tumblers, hoodies, quarter zips, all manner of kind 0:22:04.320 --> 0:22:07.560 of fall themed stuff. So if you want to get 0:22:07.600 --> 0:22:11.600 something new, then go to proshop dot Thefrida egg dot 0:22:11.640 --> 0:22:15.240 com and check out our fall line starting on Tuesday, 0:22:15.320 --> 0:22:21.640 September thirteenth. Okay, that's it. Back to the interview. Okay, Well, 0:22:21.800 --> 0:22:24.960 I'd like to get into golf courses and golf course 0:22:24.960 --> 0:22:29.399 development a little bit later, but before that, I'd like 0:22:29.480 --> 0:22:33.880 to find out a little more about kind of how 0:22:34.240 --> 0:22:40.920 golf course operators can go about sustaining interest in the game. Obviously, 0:22:40.960 --> 0:22:44.879 twenty twenty twenty twenty one was a big moment for 0:22:45.000 --> 0:22:48.920 golf course operators to just bring new people into the fold. 0:22:49.320 --> 0:22:51.680 People are arriving at the golf course who haven't been 0:22:51.720 --> 0:22:54.240 there in a while, or who have perhaps never been there. 0:22:54.920 --> 0:22:58.280 And now the big thing for golf course operators is 0:22:58.680 --> 0:23:01.560 how do we keep those people coming back? Right? How 0:23:01.560 --> 0:23:06.359 can we provide an experience that is such that those people, 0:23:06.520 --> 0:23:09.760 even if other activities open up to them, they choose 0:23:09.800 --> 0:23:13.760 to come back to golf. So, just in general, what 0:23:13.960 --> 0:23:18.119 has been your standard advice to golf course operators about 0:23:18.160 --> 0:23:22.600 how to improve the experience so that they keep bringing 0:23:22.640 --> 0:23:25.680 new people to the game and bringing back people who 0:23:26.359 --> 0:23:28.560 came back during the pandemic. 0:23:29.560 --> 0:23:34.240 Golf's front door, and I'm discussing the US is the 0:23:34.359 --> 0:23:39.160 United States sixteen thousand golf courses, fourteen thousand facilities as 0:23:39.200 --> 0:23:46.000 golf's front door. I have not historically been particularly strategic 0:23:46.160 --> 0:23:50.399 or aggressive at selling golf versus other forms of recreation, 0:23:51.520 --> 0:23:54.200 and selling golf doesn't have to mean in the traditional 0:23:54.680 --> 0:23:57.920 sense of sales. But what it does have to be 0:23:58.600 --> 0:24:02.320 is golf needs to compete on a basis of being 0:24:02.880 --> 0:24:05.359 a fun thing to do for people who are not 0:24:05.600 --> 0:24:10.240 already in the franchise, who are not already hooked. So 0:24:10.280 --> 0:24:12.960 if you're running a golf course, lots of people in 0:24:12.960 --> 0:24:17.520 the golf business during these these these surging, surging times, 0:24:17.800 --> 0:24:19.520 you know they look in the in the mirror. We 0:24:19.560 --> 0:24:21.720 all can look in the mirror like, wow, we're really handsome, 0:24:22.240 --> 0:24:25.960 Like business is just amazing. We're doing an exceptional job. 0:24:26.760 --> 0:24:29.679 But the reality is we need to use times like 0:24:29.760 --> 0:24:35.639 these to reinvest in the product. And unless you're Seminole 0:24:35.800 --> 0:24:40.959 or Pine Valley or Mirefield Village, you need to compete. 0:24:41.119 --> 0:24:45.080 And that means competing for recreation time, and that means 0:24:45.400 --> 0:24:48.159 what are the amenities? What are the ways that I 0:24:48.280 --> 0:24:53.600 can create pleasing, positive experiences for people who are not 0:24:53.840 --> 0:24:56.959 already hooked on the game. And so those who are 0:24:57.000 --> 0:25:01.199 at golf's front door, this is a call, okay, this 0:25:01.359 --> 0:25:04.320 is a call to them to look at their operation 0:25:04.480 --> 0:25:07.520 while they have some money and think about what's going 0:25:07.600 --> 0:25:11.399 to happen when things are not as good? Am I 0:25:11.480 --> 0:25:14.200 looking at my property and how to make it competitive 0:25:14.320 --> 0:25:18.600 versus the other places and the other forms of recreation? 0:25:18.960 --> 0:25:21.680 That that's our view? What can I do to make 0:25:21.800 --> 0:25:26.200 my business more fun? To it's more fun to be there? 0:25:27.200 --> 0:25:30.680 Right? And so speaking of entry points to the game, 0:25:30.920 --> 0:25:35.879 it's not just green grass facilities. What is the importance 0:25:36.160 --> 0:25:40.320 of places like top golf or or you know, things 0:25:40.359 --> 0:25:44.200 like simulator golf to getting people into the game. I 0:25:44.240 --> 0:25:46.320 mean to be honest, in the past, I've been a 0:25:46.359 --> 0:25:51.120 bit of a skeptic about whether those things would indeed 0:25:51.280 --> 0:25:55.439 help help grow the game, to use the old tired phrase, 0:25:56.320 --> 0:25:59.720 but it seems like you might believe that there is 0:25:59.760 --> 0:26:03.880 a genuine connection between people who go to a top 0:26:03.920 --> 0:26:08.080 golf facility and people who might be interested in going 0:26:08.080 --> 0:26:10.800 out on a golf course at some point. So could 0:26:10.840 --> 0:26:12.280 you maybe make that connection for me? 0:26:12.960 --> 0:26:17.000 Of course, first of all the things that have been 0:26:17.040 --> 0:26:21.320 trotted out over the years, Garrett, in terms of why 0:26:21.080 --> 0:26:24.040 why doesn't golf grow as much as it as much 0:26:24.080 --> 0:26:27.679 as it should? It always comes down to people saying 0:26:28.040 --> 0:26:30.400 it takes too long, it costs too much, and it's 0:26:30.440 --> 0:26:35.720 too difficult. Well, starting more than ten years ago, we 0:26:35.840 --> 0:26:39.440 started studying that a little bit differently. We started studying 0:26:39.840 --> 0:26:42.480