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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, you're welcome to Stuff to Blow

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Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and Julie Douglas. Julie,

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Speaker 1: have you ever created something that is perfect? Have you

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Speaker 1: ever experienced a moment, a day, even an hour that

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Speaker 1: you would consider perfect? Uh? Yeah, definitely. I mean I've

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Speaker 1: had a sense of absolute I don't know perfection is

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Speaker 1: that the name of it, but um, the sense of

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Speaker 1: just being sort of that one with the world. I've

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Speaker 1: certainly had that moment where I created something and I

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Speaker 1: thought it was perfect, But that might have been an

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Speaker 1: Ikea effect, a moment you know, We've talked about this before.

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Speaker 1: When you make something and you put a little bit

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Speaker 1: more into it the result than it actually is. You

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Speaker 1: don't look at the imperfections of it. Um. And then

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Speaker 1: there are people monks who actually, we've in imperfections into

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Speaker 1: whatever they're rug they're working on, for instance, to Betan monks.

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Speaker 1: Oh yes, they leave it in because the idea that

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Speaker 1: they the imperfection is important part of the form. Right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you couldn't possibly create something that is perfection because it

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Speaker 1: doesn't exist. Yeah, this idea of perfection is in because

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Speaker 1: I could see wherever you were assembling something, you know

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Speaker 1: that that kind of feels perfect. You know, you could say, well,

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Speaker 1: I assembled it perfectly as the instructions indicated. Now, of

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Speaker 1: sometimes the instructions are flawed or are uncertain, and then

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Speaker 1: at the end it's hard to feel perfect about it.

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Speaker 1: Um Likewise, certainly there's something perfect about being in that

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Speaker 1: flow state where you're creating something and you just feel,

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Speaker 1: you know, almost at at one with your universe. But

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Speaker 1: then at the end of the day, if you've created something,

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Speaker 1: you've written something, you've painted something. I mean, time and

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Speaker 1: time again, you see examples of people who have worked

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Speaker 1: tirelessly on something and it never seems to be perfect.

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Speaker 1: You know, there that that story you're writing, that painting

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Speaker 1: that you're that sculpture that you're spending years on, Like

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Speaker 1: you're just edging a little bit closer and closer to

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Speaker 1: this idea of perfection, and it doesn't seem like you

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Speaker 1: can ever quite get it, Like, like, how do you

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Speaker 1: ever get it to match up with that, with the

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Speaker 1: with the idea in your head? I mean, I run

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Speaker 1: into this even when I'm just picking out an image

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Speaker 1: to go along with our podcast episodes, like sometimes I'll

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Speaker 1: have just sort of an abstract idea of what the

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Speaker 1: perfect illustration for this episode would be, and then I

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Speaker 1: end up just wasting all this time looking around in

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Speaker 1: our image resources trying to find something that that is

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Speaker 1: as powerful as what I want to use. A good

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Speaker 1: stark example of this kind of frustration of our expectation

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Speaker 1: versus reality is to take a pen to paper and

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Speaker 1: to try to draw a perfect circle, which is of

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Speaker 1: course the topic that we're talking about today. Have you

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Speaker 1: ever in your lifetime created a perfect circle? Even though

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Speaker 1: in your head it's there, you see it. Yeah, this

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Speaker 1: is a fascinating question, one that I did a short

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Speaker 1: blog post about a few weeks ago, and and I

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Speaker 1: just continue to think about because just just in terms

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Speaker 1: of drawing a circle, and and if you have the

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Speaker 1: means to do so, and you're not driving a car something,

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Speaker 1: you might even give this a shot. Um It's it's

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Speaker 1: extremely difficult to to draw a circle that even appears

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Speaker 1: to have some level of perfection to Uh. Certainly there

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Speaker 1: are I've read about various uh um art schools past

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Speaker 1: and present. Uh, they've they've you know, there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of emphasis on being able to draw a very good circle.

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Speaker 1: And certainly anybody can put a you know, a soda

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Speaker 1: can on the table on a piece of paper and

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Speaker 1: trace around it and say, ha, I've created a perfect

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Speaker 1: circle because I just traced one. But but none of

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Speaker 1: these instances, have you actually created something that is a

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Speaker 1: mathematically perfect circle. No, because you can't really write, because

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Speaker 1: you are not a machine. And as we'll discuss later on,

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Speaker 1: this idea of a perfect circle may only exist in

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Speaker 1: the mathematical realm. Yea, even even machines have not yet

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Speaker 1: been able to create a perfect circle and may never

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Speaker 1: be able to create a circle of perfect circle. And

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Speaker 1: that is just one of the sort of maddening amazing

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Speaker 1: things about this topic. Yeah, so let's talk about circles

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Speaker 1: real quick. In terms of the etymology that is. A

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Speaker 1: circle is from the Greek kircos meaning ring, from the

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Speaker 1: ancient root care meaning to turn, and they are symbols

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Speaker 1: of infinity. That's the other thing, a line that never ends.

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Speaker 1: And so that's a deeply ingrained concept in us. And

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Speaker 1: we think about this fellow time of the circle of life,

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Speaker 1: the circle of the season's serpent eating its own tail,

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Speaker 1: which we did a whole episode on the bus. Now,

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Speaker 1: Greek philosopher Embidoccules devised a highly eccentric personal cosmology, and

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Speaker 1: his God was a circle of which the center is

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Speaker 1: everywhere are in the circumference is nowhere, which is a

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Speaker 1: really interesting thought experiment, and it plays into a lot

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Speaker 1: of what we're going to talk about. Yeah. Yeah, this

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Speaker 1: idea of circle is the infinity. This idea is of

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Speaker 1: the circle is God. I mean, certainly you look to

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Speaker 1: uh Dante's Divine Comedy and various other uh cosmological models,

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Speaker 1: and you see the heavens and one and even the

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Speaker 1: Hell's composed of circles. The circles are key to the

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Speaker 1: the organization of the universe, and in a sense they are,

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Speaker 1: I mean when you look and we'll get more into

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Speaker 1: the cosmic aspects later, but you look at at orbits,

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Speaker 1: you look at the the basic structure of of heavenly bodies,

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Speaker 1: and you see spheres, you see circles, So you can

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Speaker 1: you can, you know, understand it. Since the earliest days,

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Speaker 1: we've been staring up into the sky and uh and

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Speaker 1: and we've seen this brilliant circle just beating beaning down

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Speaker 1: is giving all the energy and a light that we

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Speaker 1: have in this world. Yes, And to that point, the

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Speaker 1: word zodiac comes from the Greek sticklo circle zoom animal

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Speaker 1: and means circle of animals. So again here we see

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Speaker 1: this pattern playing out. Uh, not in just what we perceive,

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Speaker 1: but in language. So even we've mentioned already the idea

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Speaker 1: of circles and uh and and and the heavenly and

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Speaker 1: the supernatural and God and uh and in this we

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Speaker 1: get into the platonic ideal. This idea of the humans

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Speaker 1: are but mere copies of God's perfection. Right, Yeah, we're

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Speaker 1: talking about Greek philosopher Plato, who first observed that no

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Speaker 1: one has ever seen a perfect circle, only imperfect approximations,

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Speaker 1: and he concluded that since there are no perfect mathematical

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Speaker 1: objects to be found in the world, the objects of

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Speaker 1: mathematics were turning out perfect circles, triangles, and even numbers

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Speaker 1: themselves that must somehow exist. These things must how, somehow

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Speaker 1: exist as eternal abstract entities beyond space and time and

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Speaker 1: some other worldly platonic heaven called the world of forms

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Speaker 1: or ideas. And you may recognize this from our recent

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Speaker 1: episode on Supernormal Stimuli, where we end up bo waxing

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Speaker 1: a bit about this. You know again, the idea that

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Speaker 1: there's quote unquote perfect ideal versions of things, of objects,

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Speaker 1: of of realities that are just beyond us, perhaps in

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Speaker 1: a in at least in a philosophical sense, in some

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Speaker 1: realm or dimension beyond our own. But then it gets

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Speaker 1: it gets so squirrely because we're gonna talk about the

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Speaker 1: mathematical aspect of this, which really starts to get into

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Speaker 1: the philosophical realm, and they are sort of intertwined. Um.

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Speaker 1: But the idea basically here is that there really is

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Speaker 1: no perfect circle. And um, you talk to someone like

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Speaker 1: John Adam, who is a mathematics professor of Old Dominion

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Speaker 1: University and the author of Mathematics and Nature Modeling Patterns

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Speaker 1: in the Natural World, and he says that no perfect

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Speaker 1: circle can occur in nature since a perfect circle is

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Speaker 1: a geometric idealization. So again we're underscoring this. It's an idealization,

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Speaker 1: it is an illusion of perfection. Now at this point

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Speaker 1: in the podcast, I know a number of you are

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Speaker 1: probably thinking, well, what about this? What about that? What? In?

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Speaker 1: Various examples in the natural world are coming to mind,

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Speaker 1: So we're just gonna roll through some of them and

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Speaker 1: discuss almost playing the game show perfect circle and not

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Speaker 1: a perfect circle. Um. And spoiler, UM, you don't don't

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Speaker 1: vote for perfect circle on any of these because you'll lose.

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Speaker 1: We probably there's one. There's one case where it's a

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Speaker 1: little iffy but still gets a little close. Yeah, a

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Speaker 1: little close. And that's the thing we we some of

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Speaker 1: these examples are very close. Um, I guess let's start

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Speaker 1: with with the planets. Okay, we live on a planet.

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Speaker 1: We know from looking at our charts there are all

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Speaker 1: these other planets, these a spherical planets that make up

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Speaker 1: our solar system. We know that the Sun is a

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Speaker 1: is a spear, so let's look around our own solar neighborhood.

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Speaker 1: Are these perfect circles? Well, all right, take a planet

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Speaker 1: for instance. Um, a planet is basically a sphere. It's

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Speaker 1: it's round, and this is because the even distribution of

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Speaker 1: gravitational forces rawls matter into the spherical shape. But you

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Speaker 1: also have this centrifugal force of rotation that causes the

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Speaker 1: spheres to bulge out at the at the equator. According

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Speaker 1: to Clark Planetarium director Seth Jarvis, we're talking a barely

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Speaker 1: noticeable zero point three bulge at Earth's equator. But you

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Speaker 1: go to somewhere like Saturn, and there you'll see a

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Speaker 1: hafty ten percent bulge. So again to the to the

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Speaker 1: naked eye, and certainly on various illustrations that we have

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Speaker 1: of these these worlds, you might not get you know,

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Speaker 1: you might not even pick up on it. But since this, uh,

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Speaker 1: this sphere is spinning around, there is this bulge around

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Speaker 1: the equator that you have the interplay, for example, the

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Speaker 1: Earth and its moon, and that is going to inform

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Speaker 1: the way that the Earth is actually shaped, right because

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Speaker 1: of that gravitational poll and Saturn's rings those look perfectly circular.

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Speaker 1: We look him, right, I mean, it looks like, seriously,

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Speaker 1: it looks like, wow, it could not be a perfect rivel.

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Speaker 1: It looks to the naked eye as though it is.

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Speaker 1: But parts of the ng are bent by the pull

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Speaker 1: of gravity from its other moons. So you see this

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Speaker 1: at play. And then there's that that burning orb in

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Speaker 1: the sky which appears to be a perfect circle. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and again we've looked at that, for we've worshiped the

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Speaker 1: Sun as this perfect disc right, but even our sun,

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Speaker 1: which does boast incredible mathematical roundness. I mean, when you

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Speaker 1: when when you take into everything into account, it's it

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Speaker 1: comes kind of close, but you're still going to see

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Speaker 1: a bulge of about ten kilometers at its equator, which

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Speaker 1: is very minuscule given the enormous size of our Solar

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Speaker 1: system central star. But still there's a bulge there, So

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Speaker 1: it falls short of perfection. Now, the next one should

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Speaker 1: instill some pride and lebri cons with pots of gold.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about rainbows, the arc of a rainbow, which

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Speaker 1: according to Adam, is the second closest thing to a

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Speaker 1: perfect circle in nature. And of course the rainbow is

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Speaker 1: actually a circle, so you're able to see that if

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Speaker 1: you're up above in the clouds and you're looking down.

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Speaker 1: But because we're on the horizon, we see that arc. Yes,

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Speaker 1: they're probably wondering, well, what is what does he think

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Speaker 1: is the closest thing we have in nature to do

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Speaker 1: a perfect circle? John Adam says, the closest thing ripples

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Speaker 1: in the water. Okay, you know, you drop a pebble

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Speaker 1: into a pond, a still a pond, and then you

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Speaker 1: watch those ripples, uh reverberate out from the center. He says,

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Speaker 1: that's that's close. Still not perfect though, Yeah, And he

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Speaker 1: said that it doesn't even matter what if the object

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Speaker 1: itself is round, it could be square, you could be

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Speaker 1: skipping stones, and it could be all sorts of um

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Speaker 1: herky jerky in terms of its formations. Eventually, he says

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Speaker 1: that those outward spirals will become a kind of perfect circle.

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Speaker 1: And one important thing to keep in mind here too,

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Speaker 1: that ties in directly to the the idea of drawing

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Speaker 1: a perfect circle or you're tracing a perfect circle, is

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Speaker 1: that the closer you look at something, it may look

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Speaker 1: like it has some level of perfection from an outside

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Speaker 1: of you. But if you zoom in, then does that

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Speaker 1: line maintain its perfection? Is there is there a maintain

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Speaker 1: perfect boundary? And just imagine, you know, a pencil that's

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Speaker 1: drawn a circle and you zoom in, what are you

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Speaker 1: gonna see when you get closer and closer You're gonna

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Speaker 1: see uh, tiny little bits of the pencil core. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's a changeability factor here. But I think that's what's

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Speaker 1: so interesting again about this kind of ripple effect, because

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Speaker 1: it's sort of a zen meditation that you see that

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Speaker 1: you see the morphing, you see the circle, you know,

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Speaker 1: coming out of this situation, coming out of nothingness. And

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Speaker 1: there maybe again there's something really deeply rooted within humans

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Speaker 1: to recognize this. Now, speaking of of things within us,

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Speaker 1: how about eyes. I mean, we're always looking in the mirror,

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Speaker 1: we're looking to the eyes of other people. We're seeing

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Speaker 1: those around pupils perfect circle and not a perfect circle.

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Speaker 1: All right. Yeah, I'm staring at your eyeball right now,

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Speaker 1: and you couldn't look more like a perfect circle the

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Speaker 1: the iris itself and the pupil. Of course it's not,

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Speaker 1: but it's so pervasive in mammals, right. You see this

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Speaker 1: in mammals that are diurnal in other words, active during

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Speaker 1: the daytime, and they are shaped that way, those pupils

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Speaker 1: to let in the optimal amount of light. Um. Of course,

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Speaker 1: you start to diverge from this idea of these perfectly

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Speaker 1: round pupils when you look at other animals. In fact,

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Speaker 1: there's some they're really cool with pupils that look like

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Speaker 1: key holes or even hearts. Um. I mean they're not

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Speaker 1: actual hearts, but they kind of look like hearts to us. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're I really enjoyed looking at these various images of

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Speaker 1: animal eyes. I mean, particularly like the goat eye and

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Speaker 1: the squid eye are two of my favorites. I love,

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Speaker 1: I love a goat. I like the lobster eye too,

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Speaker 1: because it's just out there. Now, if you go even smaller,

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Speaker 1: you go down to the micro level, we do see

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Speaker 1: near perfect roundness of the electron particle. But the interesting

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Speaker 1: thing here is that the imperfection of that of that

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Speaker 1: electron particle actually factors into some of our best theories

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Speaker 1: regarding the physical nature of the universe. So simply put,

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Speaker 1: without getting you know, into general relativity, getting into general

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Speaker 1: relative activity, it improved measuring techniques prove electrons to be

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Speaker 1: too perfectly round, then we're forced to cast out some

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Speaker 1: of our theories proposing particles beyond those accounted for in

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Speaker 1: the standard model. So it's almost almost brings us back

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Speaker 1: to that idea of monks putting imperfection into the tapestry.

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Speaker 1: There's a certain amount of imperfection that's that's present in

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Speaker 1: our understanding of the universe, and if we were to

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Speaker 1: determine that that that electrons are more perfect than we

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Speaker 1: currently think, it's going to start unraveling some of that

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Speaker 1: tapestry we've constructed. Yeah, it kind of opens up a

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Speaker 1: whole can of worms when it comes to some of

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Speaker 1: the theories. But the reason why they are using that

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Speaker 1: electron is because that that imperfection is so very tiny.

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Speaker 1: We're talking point zeros one centimeters off from being perfectly round.

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Speaker 1: And put in another way, if the electron was magnified

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Speaker 1: to the size of the Solar system, it would deviate

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Speaker 1: from immaculate rotundity. I love that by a magnitude equivalent

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Speaker 1: to a human hair. Alright, well, let's let's head back

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Speaker 1: out to the to the macro view of the universe

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Speaker 1: for one final example here, and that is the black hole. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and there are many scientists that predicted the event horizon

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Speaker 1: of a black hole. Again, the event horizon, if you

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Speaker 1: don't remember, is that that point at which light cannot

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Speaker 1: escape theoretically from the black hole, right, because the gravitational

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Speaker 1: force for the sucking is so powerful. Exactly, that is

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Speaker 1: just sucking all of that in the same thing has

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Speaker 1: been said about the film Event Horizon, but which I

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Speaker 1: enjoyed when it came out. I have nothing against fun flip,

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Speaker 1: but this makes it difficult to measure any sort of

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Speaker 1: data around an event horizon or around a black hole. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: scientists argue that this event horizon could constitute a perfect

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Speaker 1: circle or sphere. But we've have to. We've yet to

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Speaker 1: prove that out, and uh, and not everyone is convinced

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Speaker 1: we'd find perfection there either. In fact, according to Stephen Hawking,

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Speaker 1: as summarized by Daily Galaxy, quantum effects around the black

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Speaker 1: hole may cause space time to fluctuate too widely for

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Speaker 1: a sharp boundary surface to exist. So, I mean, especially

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Speaker 1: with something like a black hole, you're getting into this

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Speaker 1: weird idea you're trying to You're trying to find this

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Speaker 1: this ideal circle in a thing that is existing in

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Speaker 1: a curious state of space and time. Um, can, well,

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Speaker 1: can we find it there? Maybe not? Well, it also

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Speaker 1: puts an asterisk to this idea that a perfect circle

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Speaker 1: doesn't exist in nature because in this mathematical model, it

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Speaker 1: has to write could again. But but then it gets

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Speaker 1: that you get into the discussion of does a circle

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Speaker 1: is a circle something from a mathematical understanding, does it

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Speaker 1: exist for an extended period of time? Does exist in

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Speaker 1: time and space? Uh? You really get into the deep

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Speaker 1: end of trying to to apply this this mathematical model

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Speaker 1: of perfection to a universe that seems to have a

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Speaker 1: lot of mathematical imperfection in it. All right, let's put

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Speaker 1: that back on the shelf for a second and just

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Speaker 1: let it sort of reconstitute itself. Um, and go back

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Speaker 1: to John Adam, who was writing in a National Geographic

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Speaker 1: article about this idea of circles and saying that one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons why they're so prevalent in nature is

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Speaker 1: because things form circularly, because it's really the most efficient

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Speaker 1: way to maximize or even minimize specific processes under certain constraints.

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Speaker 1: And in mathematics, he said, a circle allows for the

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Speaker 1: greatest area for any given perimeter and the least perimeter

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Speaker 1: for any given area, compared to other polygons. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean it comes back to the gravity example. As nassas

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Speaker 1: is drawn into a point of gravitational attraction like that,

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Speaker 1: it's going to form a sphere. It's going to form

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Speaker 1: a circle, because that's the most democratic form of of

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Speaker 1: of particle assimilation and the most efficient form. Right. So,

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Speaker 1: even if you're looking at say a sunflower, and you're

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Speaker 1: looking at the middle of it, which appears to be

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Speaker 1: a perfect circle, and then you peer in a little

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Speaker 1: bit more, you see thousands of more little perfect circles

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Speaker 1: comprising that surface area, because this is the most efficient

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Speaker 1: way for it to store its energy and to try

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Speaker 1: to um live as an organism. Yeah, it's also the easiest.

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Speaker 1: I'm just thinking it's probably the easiest form to get

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Speaker 1: people to form into. You know, you think of children

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Speaker 1: in an elementary school environment and the teacher says, all right, everyone,

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Speaker 1: form a circle or even a semicircle. That's going to

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Speaker 1: be far more an efficient exercise than Okay, let's form

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Speaker 1: a square, let's form a triangle, you know, because it's

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Speaker 1: it's just easier to to to picture that form in

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Speaker 1: our mind and then adhere to it. Well, and there's

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Speaker 1: this idea that maybe there's a sort of again deeply

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Speaker 1: rooted since at least in humans, that you would congregate

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Speaker 1: in that way. And I'm thinking about the study from

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Speaker 1: two thousand and nine and Max Plank Institute in which

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Speaker 1: they took volunteers and they asked them to walk from

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Speaker 1: point A to point B. But this was in the dark,

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Speaker 1: there were no navigational cues, and what they found is

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Speaker 1: that people over and over again walked in circles. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, without these sort of cues around us, that's

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Speaker 1: what we do, that that trope. We're walking in circles, right,

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Speaker 1: you don't have enough data and what metaphorically point it

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Speaker 1: because you end up returning to the place from which

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Speaker 1: you left. So right, and then even to go back

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Speaker 1: to that sun flour example, if you were to cut

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Speaker 1: the stem of that and look at it on a

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Speaker 1: cellular level, you would see again that these materials are

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Speaker 1: congregating in circular fashions, or what looked to be circular fashions.

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Speaker 1: They're not perfect circles, but again, it's the most efficient

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Speaker 1: way to transfer energy in this organism. All right, well,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna take a quick break, and when we come back,

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Speaker 1: more on circles, not only natural circles, but man made circles,

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Speaker 1: man made spears. How close did those come to perfection?

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Speaker 1: All right, we are back. I'm gonna throw this little

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Speaker 1: stat out there. Three ten millions of an inch from perfection.

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Speaker 1: What man made object has come so very close to

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Speaker 1: a perfect circle? Oh um, the PEPSI logo, target logo. God,

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Speaker 1: I'm drawn a blank. Then NASA's courts giroscopic rotor. Yes,

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Speaker 1: these were built for NASA's Gravity Probe B spacecraft. And uh,

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Speaker 1: these quarts gyros do, in fact standard the most perfect

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Speaker 1: man made spheres ever created. Landing less than again, ten

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Speaker 1: millions of an inch from perfection, which we created not

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Speaker 1: just to show off how amazing we were, but because

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Speaker 1: they were necessary too for the inner workings of this

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Speaker 1: particular gravity probe. This gravity probe was actually testing the

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Speaker 1: theory of general relativity shows up again. So they needed

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Speaker 1: again something that was as precise as it possibly could be,

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Speaker 1: because being off by anything larger than on one hundred

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Speaker 1: billions of a degree every hour would ruin the experiment. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so it's crazy, even when an organization like NASA throws

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Speaker 1: it's you know, it's best scientific minds at the problem

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Speaker 1: of of creating a perfect circle or a perfect sphere

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Speaker 1: can't quite reach perfection on it. No, but the Stanford

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Speaker 1: team that worked on the spheres says, only neutron stars

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Speaker 1: are more spherical than what they created. There's a little

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Speaker 1: boasting there, So there's they're they're saying, well that the

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Speaker 1: universe can do a little better, but just barely. So. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're saying the neutron stars they're showoffie and all with

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Speaker 1: their collapsing neus becoming a tighter and tighter ball of

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Speaker 1: spherical energy. Alright, well, let's turn then back to the

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Speaker 1: word world of mathematics, because that is the only place

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Speaker 1: that we're actually finding this perfect circle. And let's discuss

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Speaker 1: exactly what it is. Okay. A circle is, of course

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Speaker 1: the set of points in a plane that are equal

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Speaker 1: distant from a given point. So for a circle to

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Speaker 1: be perfect, you need all of those points in the

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Speaker 1: circle's circumference to match up exactly. And for all those

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Speaker 1: points to match up exactly, you need this precision to

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Speaker 1: remain constant no matter how closely you looked the particles,

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Speaker 1: the cells, the atoms, and are these points stationary or

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Speaker 1: are they in motion? As so you can see where

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Speaker 1: the search really becomes maddening because you apply everything we

396
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Speaker 1: just said to that that circle that you traced around

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Speaker 1: a soda. Can you apply it to the sign, You

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Speaker 1: apply it to the to the electron particle, you will

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Speaker 1: apply it to to the human eye, any of these things. Then, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if you look closely enough, are you going to see flux?

401
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Speaker 1: Are you going to see that that disruption in that

402
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,639
Speaker 1: that that never ending line. Yeah, it's a problem because

403
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,840
Speaker 1: in the real world, there's no such thing as a

404
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,639
Speaker 1: mathematical point. There's no such thing as a perfect line

405
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Speaker 1: or perfectly parallel line. Now like an infinitely thin line

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Speaker 1: that's that only exists in mathematics, right, which is really

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Speaker 1: helpful in mathematics, it's helpful in the realm in which

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Speaker 1: you're trying to work out problems of the universe and

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Speaker 1: work out theories, uh, or rather you know, in this

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Speaker 1: case hypotheses. So that's again this kind of weird area

411
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Speaker 1: where you're saying, well, what is math? Then? Is it real?

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Speaker 1: Can it really quantify the uniform universe? Or is it

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Speaker 1: just this abstract notion? Well, I guess you could argue

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Speaker 1: that that Okay, we've gone into the whole issue of mathematics,

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Speaker 1: human creation, and human discovery. Right. Is it the blueprint

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Speaker 1: of the universe or a blueprint print we've created to

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Speaker 1: make sense of the universe? Is it underlying or something

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00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:39,879
Speaker 1: we've made to overlye So you could say that in

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Speaker 1: uncovering the language of the universe in the form of mathematics,

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Speaker 1: we determine we were able to see where you could

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Speaker 1: create you could have a more perfect universe mathematically speaking,

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Speaker 1: based on the language that's that's present. So the language

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Speaker 1: gets this closer to something that is unknowable inherently. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Or you could say that the language hints at a

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Speaker 1: perfect model beyond our own, this realm of forms, right Plato. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so your platon so is pie. Then this platonic ideal

427
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Speaker 1: is Pie a kind of God, an unknowable god, only

428
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,879
Speaker 1: existing in this realm. Yeah, A lot of people would

429
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 1: probably really be behind that idea, a lot of Pie

430
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,200
Speaker 1: fans out there. But you know what, what it all

431
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 1: comes down to this circle of learning? Right And actually

432
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 1: the word encyclopedia literally means the circle of learning. Interesting,

433
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 1: I did not know that. Yes, it was meant to

434
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 1: indicate a well rounded education. H but can you ever

435
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,480
Speaker 1: have a perfectly round education? Right? Never, There's always going

436
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:47,160
Speaker 1: to be a bulge in your education. Yeah, it's it's

437
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:51,679
Speaker 1: just such a fascinating area of discussion and contemplation. Because

438
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:54,439
Speaker 1: you know, another example that I was coming back to,

439
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:58,200
Speaker 1: I posted something on our Facebook page and which which

440
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,679
Speaker 1: has quite a following these days. Yeah, it's such a

441
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:05,159
Speaker 1: fascinating area of studying and contemplation. Um. Every now and

442
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 1: then I'll see someone talk about the idea of there

443
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,680
Speaker 1: being a creator in the universe, you know, is there

444
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 1: is there a god? And uh? And I've seen people

445
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 1: draw the example to say, well, I see perfection in

446
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,200
Speaker 1: the world around me, and so I know that there

447
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 1: is a god um, which I don't. You know, I

448
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 1: don't want to take anything away from from that rationale

449
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 1: because it brings us back to that idea of the

450
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 1: monk with the uh with the tapestry, right being perfections

451
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,040
Speaker 1: in it. Like I mean, just get into linguistic problems

452
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 1: when we talk about a perfect model of anything, because

453
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,159
Speaker 1: think of like I think of a novel, like a

454
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 1: perfect novel is not. I mean, there's a certain form

455
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 1: you could say that is perfect in a novel, but

456
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,640
Speaker 1: even that subjective, but you don't, you know, you don't

457
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,680
Speaker 1: want perfect characters within your novel. You want flawed characters

458
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,400
Speaker 1: that give the narrative life. So it's it's really hard

459
00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 1: to to nail down is this universe perfect well, and

460
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,400
Speaker 1: it's maybe not mathematically perfect, but you could argue that

461
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 1: it is perfect in sort of a I'm an all

462
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 1: powerful entity. I'm going to make a terrarium in which

463
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:14,880
Speaker 1: Salamanitors fight each other from my amusement kind of a way. Right, Yeah,

464
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 1: I guess it all boils down to the individual level though,

465
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:21,200
Speaker 1: when you're talking about perfection and subjectivity. So I think

466
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,920
Speaker 1: That's why the realm of mathematics is so great when

467
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:28,959
Speaker 1: it comes to this idea of perfection, because it's an

468
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 1: agreed upon set of numbers and processes that you can

469
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 1: come to. And I guess you could still filter it

470
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:42,440
Speaker 1: at the individual level. However, there's a sort of um

471
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 1: rhyme and reason to it that is seems more logical

472
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 1: than just the individual experience anyway. So there you go,

473
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 1: a crash course in perfection in the idea of a

474
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 1: perfect circle. Uh, and in the the the very strong

475
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 1: idea that that there is no such at least in

476
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 1: this universe outside of the world of mathematics. Yeah, I

477
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 1: mean it is pie, the culprit of our of our

478
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 1: angst that we all feel. Yeah, penned on pie. I

479
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 1: don't think we should. It's a great concept, is great,

480
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:20,160
Speaker 1: and it's a good dessert. Also round, but not perfectly round. Yeah,

481
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 1: it's never going to right, but you can still enjoy it.

482
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 1: It's true, all right. You want to get in touch

483
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 1: with us, you want to share your thoughts on perfection

484
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 1: in our universe, in our lives, in our circles. Do

485
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,679
Speaker 1: you have a candidate that you think nails it for

486
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: perfect circles. There's something we've missed here, bring it up.

487
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 1: We'll discuss it on a future listener mail segment. In

488
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 1: the meantime, do check us out at stuff to Blow

489
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. That's where you will find all

490
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 1: of our podcast episodes, all of our videos, all of

491
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: our blog articles. You will find links out to our

492
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 1: various social media accounts there, including the Facebook account that

493
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier. We're stuff to Blow your Mind on

494
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 1: There you can just search your stuff and follow us

495
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,160
Speaker 1: and check out the YouTube where we are mind Stuff Show.

496
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 1: You'll find all of our various fun little video projects,

497
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 1: including uh Julie's new information Elevator series, which is just

498
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 1: wonderfully delightful. Do check that out. And is there another

499
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:14,640
Speaker 1: way that they can get in touch with us? Maybe

500
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 1: a more perfect way to a more perfect way. There's

501
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 1: a perhaps even a circular way of packets tackets of

502
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 1: information being delivered to us via email, so you can

503
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 1: send your thoughts to us below the mind at how

504
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com for more on this and thousands

505
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 1: of other topics. Does it how stuff works dot com