1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We are live here in Moscow, Idaho, 2 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: camp outside the so called murder house where four beautiful 3 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:26,600 Speaker 1: young co eds, three girls, one guy lost their lives. 4 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: And I've got to tell you there is an eerie 5 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:33,520 Speaker 1: silence here. One thing I just noticed as I sat 6 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: down at this fold out table, about twenty feet from 7 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: me is an apartment complex, an apartment building, right beside 8 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: the murder house, and I can clearly hear an infant 9 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 1: inside crying. My point is that the video cam, the 10 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 1: security cam about fifty feet away from the murder house, 11 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: a pearsha have caught whimpering, muted whimpering at the time 12 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:06,400 Speaker 1: we believe the murders occurred of those four students. And 13 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 1: from what I can tell now, that is entirely possible, 14 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 1: if not overwhelmingly probable. I mean, I can hear everything 15 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:21,040 Speaker 1: that's happening right beside me and out of the street. 16 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,479 Speaker 1: There's no question that security cam could have picked up 17 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: any sounds, including a loud thud or a dog barking 18 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: or whimpering. And speaking of whimpering, I've got an all 19 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: star panel. I'll introduce him as we go along. But 20 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 1: to Cheryl, McCollum joining me, forensic expert out of the 21 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 1: Cold Case Research Institute, now start off Zone seven and 22 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: new hit podcast. Cheryl, when I hear that word whimpering, 23 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 1: I can't get away from it. I cannot get away 24 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: from one of those girls or possibly Ethan, actually whimpering 25 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: after they've been stabbed, you know, half away, half asleep. 26 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: I'm not really even sure they were all asleep, Cheryl, 27 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: because one of them just got indoor dashed for something. 28 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: How could they be asleep at the time of the murders. 29 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 1: But I do believe they were in their beds. But 30 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 1: the whimpering, Cheryl, just it's awful. WHOA wait, did you 31 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:18,679 Speaker 1: could you hear that? I can hear the baby, and 32 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 1: it's further away from me than the murder house. So 33 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: there's no question that security cam was picking up the 34 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: sounds of the murders. Go ahead, Cheryl, Nancy. What it 35 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 1: does to me is it allows the general public to 36 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: hear this crime in progress, which normally we are not 37 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: at all able to, you know, witness that as an 38 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: ear witness, and it's it's gonna be followed up by 39 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 1: what the security camera says. Is also a thud We're 40 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: gonna know when this life ended in real time, and 41 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: I think that's going to be critical in the future 42 00:02:56,320 --> 00:03:00,240 Speaker 1: for a jury to understand this is not something off TV. 43 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: This happened. You know, to everybody on the panel, you've 44 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: all been to crime scenes, murder scenes, but I've only 45 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: felt this feeling at a couple of murders in the past. 46 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: It's very eerie here. It's quiet. I was saying earlier 47 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: that it feels like you've gone into an empty church 48 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: or you're out in a cemetery. There's just a very 49 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:29,399 Speaker 1: eerie feeling around the house. And it's just the way 50 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:33,519 Speaker 1: you described it. Joining me also is Chris mcdonna, director 51 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective and start of the 52 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 1: interview room on YouTube. I'm looking right over at the 53 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: Sigma Kai house and it's amazing to me. You warned me, Chris, 54 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 1: I have circled this house on foot and in an 55 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: suv over and over and over. There is nowhere that 56 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: you don't have a bird's ivy straight into their home. 57 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: Chris mcdonna, Nancy, And isn't that chilling just in of 58 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: itself when you as the way you describe how you 59 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: know the scene is so silent. It's almost as if 60 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: the universe is frozen that moment of this horrific crime. 61 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: And I felt the same thing when I was there, 62 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: right there on the same road with you. It is 63 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 1: extremely I don't know, just unsettling yet, Holly. At the 64 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: same time, you know another thing, when you said it 65 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 1: was frozen in time. In the back, it looks like 66 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: they've still got Christmas lights strung up. But another thing 67 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: I noticed, and this is really interesting to me, David 68 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: Leroy is with me. Guys. You know that name. Well, 69 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:48,599 Speaker 1: he's a high profile lawyer out of Idaho. He's the 70 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: former Idaho Attorney General and lieutenant governor, former prosecutor at 71 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:57,159 Speaker 1: Leroy dot com. But what intrigues me the most is 72 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:00,839 Speaker 1: not just his legal prowess. He has been in this 73 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 1: home many times, you know, David Leroy. Kristen Dunna tried 74 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 1: to warm me. But how easy it was. I could 75 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:11,160 Speaker 1: not really fathom how easy it was to see. I mean, 76 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:15,119 Speaker 1: these girls were like fishing in a little fish bowl 77 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: for the killer to spy on them, laughing, making breakfast, 78 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 1: changing clothes, getting out of the bathtub or the shower, 79 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: making out with their boyfriends. I mean, how many times 80 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: do you think Coburger stood right behind this house and 81 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: looked in. You know, their trees right behind the house, 82 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:38,720 Speaker 1: David Leroy, But they're not thick at all. I can 83 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:41,280 Speaker 1: see straight through them. What would you say, Sydney, Maybe 84 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: seven or eight trees, and they're tall and spinda ly 85 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: you can see straight through them. They might as well 86 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:49,719 Speaker 1: not even be there. Well, the setting, as you have discovered, Nancy, 87 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 1: is both somewhat intimate to little offshoot of the road 88 00:05:56,240 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 1: that almost did ends halfway up a hill that therefore 89 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 1: is on a rim where you can look across to 90 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:07,280 Speaker 1: the Sigma Kai house. But one thing that hasn't been 91 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 1: particularly well detailed is across the street from the Sigma 92 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:15,280 Speaker 1: Kai house and behind the next hill is the administration 93 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:18,919 Speaker 1: building for the university, perhaps just a quarter of a 94 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:23,039 Speaker 1: mile as the crow would fly from that house, So 95 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,600 Speaker 1: it's isolated. It's halfway up a hill. It has these 96 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: vistas and views, but it's really almost smacked out in 97 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: the middle of the campus itself. Guys. Another thing we 98 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 1: learned last night. We got an suv and the suv 99 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: was taken from the murder scene all the way back 100 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 1: to Coburger's pullman home and I want to tell you 101 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,840 Speaker 1: what we learned. He didn't go straight home. I think 102 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:56,039 Speaker 1: it was trying to throw off Elie law enforcement. What 103 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 1: should have been a nine to fifteen minute drive turn 104 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 1: out to be an hour drive. It reminds me a 105 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 1: lot of murdog on his rural route when he got 106 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: shot in the head and lied about it. Remember he 107 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: claimed he took this long, circuitous route from A to 108 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: B when it would have been about an eleven minute drive. 109 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: He chose to make a forty five minute drive so 110 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 1: he wouldn't be seen when he had himself shot in 111 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: the head as an alumi of sorts. But long story short, 112 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 1: This route taken in the middle of the night. That's 113 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: when we took the route in the pitch dark. It's 114 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: very sparse. It's a real no man's land. He could 115 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: have thrown that knife anywhere. It does not get even 116 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 1: close to the Snake River, so I don't believe the 117 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 1: knife is in the Snake River. But there were some 118 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: homes but no traffic. We passed about two or three 119 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: cars the whole hour, pitch dark, no street lights, which 120 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: is common in the country. But he could have done 121 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 1: anything he wanted with that knife. Now, this is what 122 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: I want to throw to you, guys. Do you believe 123 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 1: as I do that if Ellie law enforcement looks at 124 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: the records long enough, they will catch him with his 125 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 1: cell phone plotting that route, practicing that route. What do 126 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: you think, Cheryl McCallum, Nancy, I think he's going to 127 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: have maps on the wall inside his apartment. I think 128 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: not only is it on his phone and on his computer. 129 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 1: I literally think he has pinpointed and charted this thing 130 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 1: out where he can look at it every day. You know, 131 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: you said interesting, and I don't know a few minute 132 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: the way I took it to look at it every day. Cheryl, 133 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: you know what I carry with me all the time, 134 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: my dad's shirt, and I look at it every morning 135 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 1: when I wake up. I look at it at night 136 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: before I go to sleep. I miss him so much. 137 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: It's something that I love, hey, because it's part of him. 138 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: Did you hear what she said, doctor Angela Arnold? I 139 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: don't know if she meant it this way with me? 140 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,439 Speaker 1: Is doctor Angie Arnold renowned psychiatrists out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. 141 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:10,479 Speaker 1: You can find her at Angela Arnold, MD. Dot com. 142 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: She said, he looks at it all the time, all 143 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 1: the time as a memento, like I would look at 144 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,319 Speaker 1: a scrapbook of the twins growing up their first grade, 145 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: they're christening their first Christmas. Explain that why would he 146 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 1: want to look at the map? Dancy? To me more 147 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 1: than a memento, it's an obsession. He's obsessing over what 148 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: he's going to do. He's got these obsessive thoughts. They're 149 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 1: very bad thoughts that go through his head, and so 150 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 1: he's he's plotting this out. Okay, I'm looking for a 151 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: little more from you, doctor Angie. Not very bad thoughts. 152 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 1: I mean, I can say that you're the psychiatrist. He's 153 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: got incongruent thoughts in his head about murder, about murdering someone, 154 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 1: and it just so happens that these people are the 155 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:06,319 Speaker 1: target of who he has set out to murder at 156 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: this particular time in his life. Crime stories with Nancy Grace, 157 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: you know, we look for a motive, even though the 158 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,079 Speaker 1: state doesn't have to prove a motive ever in any case, 159 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: but a jury likes to hear what's the motive? Why 160 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: would the person do this? Well, you've got to rape 161 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 1: somebody you've got to steal something, You've got anger, you've 162 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:44,839 Speaker 1: got drugs or alcohol. In this case, we had none 163 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: of that. But I'm just wondering. I think about those 164 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: questionnaires he sent to felons, like what were you thinking? 165 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 1: What was going through your mind? What were you feeling 166 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 1: when you committed that murder? When you raped that lady? 167 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 1: What were you thinking? Nancy can I would never even 168 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: imagine asking something like that, But I really think I 169 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: think that's Chris, listen to this theory and you can 170 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 1: shoot it down if you feel like it. But what 171 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: about this that When the questionnaires wouldn't do it for 172 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: me anymore, he tried to get on with a police department, 173 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 1: hoping to see crime scenes. When that didn't fall When 174 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 1: that fell through, he finally acted on his impulses, on 175 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: his obsession. Go ahead, we used to say, and homicide. 176 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: Knowledge is having the correct answer. Intelligence is asking the 177 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 1: right question. And this guy, to your point, got to 178 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 1: a point where there was something that had built up. 179 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 1: And you know, when you start paying attention to the 180 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: detail like we're talking here, then the big picture will 181 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 1: start taking care of itself. The pre planning all of 182 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: the move movements, he was making prior to the incident, 183 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 1: the incident itself, and the post incident. All of those 184 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: behavior patterns established with all of the evidence will paint 185 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 1: the big picture of who this guy really is. Nancy 186 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:21,320 Speaker 1: back on the big picture. Those three roadways are important, 187 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 1: the directions they go and what they are to your 188 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: observation about and in relation to this big picture. Two 189 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 1: of them are major highways into and out of Moscow 190 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 1: and Pullman, and the one that is most significant is 191 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 1: the back road that you were talking about that has 192 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: literally almost no population, going through rolling hills and wheat fields. 193 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: The first road he took was a major highway south 194 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 1: to Lewis and Idaho, and that would suggest, were he 195 00:12:55,720 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: to be followed, that he was interested in being in 196 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: Lewiston or going to Lewiston, but it is exactly away 197 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 1: from Pullman, Washington. The road that he ended up on 198 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: going back to Pullman was a major highway going from 199 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 1: south to north. That would indicate somebody on it had 200 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:19,319 Speaker 1: no relationship to Moscow. And what he did to tie 201 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 1: those two things together, neither one of which suggests any 202 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: relationship to Pullman, is to cross between those two highways 203 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:36,679 Speaker 1: on this rural agricultural back road that spans some six 204 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 1: or seven or eight miles. And so the idea here 205 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:44,840 Speaker 1: was to leave town going away from Pullman, to come 206 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: back to town not having any relationship to having been 207 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 1: in Moscow, and to obscure those two directions by this 208 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: back road where he would run into nobody. That's the 209 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 1: importance of this three road connection. Hey, Nancy, I gotta 210 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: jump back in here real Yeah, go ahead, Okay. So 211 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 1: when I said he would be staring at it, I 212 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 1: meant that that's why he literally, I believe, put things 213 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: on the wall. Remember when you took the twins across 214 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:14,319 Speaker 1: the country, how long did you spend looking at national 215 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:18,559 Speaker 1: parks and state parks and places to stay and roadside 216 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: attractions and show them. For the past four months, this 217 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: is all he has done. We know of twelve times 218 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 1: he visited before the murders. We know at least four 219 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: he visited the day of the murders. One very significant 220 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: thing about this guy, Ted Bundy worked at rape Crisis 221 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: so he could hear from the victims, because that's what 222 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: got him off. This guy wanted to hear from perpetrators. 223 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: That's where his mind is, because that's how he sees himself. 224 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 1: That's a solid point, you know. I'm just thinking about 225 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 1: how the cops tore apart his apartment, and I'm wondering. 226 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: We know he is extremely fastidious. Did he keep written notes, 227 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: did he plan in writing? Did he have a list 228 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 1: on his computer? I wonder what he bought when he 229 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: went to Albert Sutton's, which I think isn't Albertsons a 230 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 1: grocery store. Guys, he went to an Albertson's. I'm wondering 231 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 1: what he got there right after the murders, after he 232 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: came back and looked at the crime scene again. And 233 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: we catch criminals coming back to the scene so often. 234 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 1: I mean, think of Scott Peterson. Remember how he would 235 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: go to the edge of a scenic vista and look 236 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 1: out on the San Francisco Bay. I guess what was 237 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: he looking to see? If Lacy's body had popped up 238 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 1: in the water. But it's almost instinctual. I'm just hoping 239 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: the cops can get him practicing that route on his 240 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 1: cell phone. Very circuitous route when we drove it last night, 241 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 1: pitch dark. Everybody point is you gotta know where you're 242 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: going a lot of twists and turns on that route. 243 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 1: And I guarantee you just knowing him as much as 244 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 1: we know him now after seeing him, after hearing about 245 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: him cleaning out his car, say meticulously wearing gloves even 246 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: after the incident. You know he planned this out and 247 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: he had to leave a trail, But can we find 248 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: the trail? Also, we know that in a few short 249 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: hours there's going to be what is called a status hearing. 250 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: It's going to be Thursday morning, straight out to you, 251 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: David Leroy. In this jurisdiction, what is a status hearing? 252 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 1: The status hearing before the magistrate early on in a 253 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: felony case before a preliminary hearing has head, will simply 254 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 1: be a scheduling conference at which probably two things will 255 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 1: come up. Number One, the judge will be asking the 256 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: defense if they are ready to or wish to have 257 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 1: their preliminary hearing, of which the prosecution would be required 258 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: to call witnesses and produce evidence to show a belief 259 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 1: to a Probably because the status principally will be called 260 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: to show the defense the opportunity. I'm going to start 261 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: again here and answer the defense will have an opportunity 262 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:14,920 Speaker 1: at this status hearing to indicate to the judge whether 263 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 1: they wish to go forward with the probable cause hearing 264 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: called a preliminary hearing immediately or delay. That that will 265 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: be the first issue that is considered. The second issue 266 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 1: will likely be a discussion about whether discovery, the exchange 267 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 1: of police reports and other materials back and forth from 268 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:37,199 Speaker 1: the prosecutor to the defense, and the defense's response to 269 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:40,919 Speaker 1: it is going adequately and smooth. So it's essentially a 270 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 1: scheduling conference. Okay, you know what. Another thing you hear 271 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 1: about status conferences, typically in civil cases where the judge 272 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 1: is saying, okay, you had a carrec Are you going 273 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: to settle? Or do I need to put this on 274 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: a trial calendar? Can't you people get along talking to 275 00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: the lawyers, not the parties? Trust me? Can you come 276 00:17:59,880 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 1: up something so we don't have to go to trial? 277 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,200 Speaker 1: That's how I view status conferences in this case, which 278 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: of course is not civil, it's criminal. Just as David 279 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 1: Leroy is describing, it's kind of an update. How are 280 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 1: we moving along? Do you need experts paid for by 281 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 1: the state? Do you need other people on your team? Also, 282 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 1: when it comes to a preliminary hearing, I would imagine 283 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: that the state would ought for a grand jury proceeding, 284 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:28,919 Speaker 1: rather than putting their witnesses up on the stand for 285 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:31,680 Speaker 1: the defense to get a first strike, you know, take 286 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:35,440 Speaker 1: a whack at them before the jury trial. So I'm imagining, 287 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: I'm thinking that the state will act with a grand 288 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,439 Speaker 1: jury as opposed to a preliminary hearing. As we wait 289 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:46,120 Speaker 1: for that status hearing to start. Also, we're wondering if 290 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:49,439 Speaker 1: Brian Coburger will be at the status hearing, and I 291 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: can guarantee you I believe he will. Why is there 292 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: anything important really going on? No, there's not. It's just 293 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 1: a scheduling matter. But if they don't bring the defendant in, 294 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: he could later claim he missed something important and his 295 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 1: constitutional rights were violated. And we've also learned the jail 296 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: here is in the courthouse, so why not just shuttle 297 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: him up the elevator and get him in there for 298 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 1: that status hearing whether he needs to be there or not. 299 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 1: Cross your teas, dot your eyes. You know, nobody means 300 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 1: to make a mistake, but it happens in criminal cases, 301 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 1: and once it's happened, it can actually change the course 302 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 1: of the investigation. In the trial. You know, a lot 303 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 1: is going down, and I want to take some calls 304 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,679 Speaker 1: from our viewers and emails all of their questions. Here's 305 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 1: a good one. Take a listen to this, guys. This 306 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 1: is from Bambi. Interested in the door dash delivery person. 307 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 1: Did they drop the food off at the door or 308 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 1: does someone get it from them? Once the delivery person 309 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 1: interviewed my police to see if Hey police, glad to 310 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 1: see you, Masco police glad to see you. And I 311 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: want to tell you they have been patrolling this area NonStop. 312 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: You would be surprised at all of the rubberneckers that 313 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,920 Speaker 1: are just coming by to stare at the house. It's 314 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: a little freaky, right, but of course maybe they're trying 315 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 1: to figure something out, just like we are. Okay, back 316 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 1: to Banby. Was a delivery person interviewed by police to 317 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 1: see if they notice the killer's car or anything else 318 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: that happened that night. Okay, that leads me to another question, Sidney, 319 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: you would know the answer to this. Probably don't door 320 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:35,399 Speaker 1: dash cars have a camera, so not necessarily. I was 321 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: thinking more about ubers or lyfts. They always have a camera, 322 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:44,119 Speaker 1: may or may not have a camera. Okay, let's go 323 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 1: with this question, door dash delivery person. Okay, you guys 324 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,360 Speaker 1: are very familiar with the timeline. What do you make 325 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 1: of the door dash delivery so close to the time 326 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 1: of the murder, Cheryl McCollum, I think it very well 327 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: may have been his opening. If he was in the 328 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 1: watch area, he saw maybe she opened the door and 329 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: just closed it right back. She didn't maybe engage the 330 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:08,120 Speaker 1: lock that gave him his little entry into the home. 331 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 1: You know, here's a good question from Jennifer, and guys, 332 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 1: everybody on the panel, jump in if you have a thought. Jennifer, 333 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: we know he spent a lot of time scoping the 334 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: house prior to that night. We know it was a 335 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,680 Speaker 1: party house when I lived in. When I was in college, 336 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,400 Speaker 1: I lived in a party house. We never questioned strangers 337 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: who stopped in. We always thought they were just friends 338 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 1: of friends. I wonder if he ever drove by when 339 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 1: there was a party and actually went in. Wow, Okay, 340 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:38,919 Speaker 1: this guy was socially awkward, but he also tried to 341 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,919 Speaker 1: make friends with people, and in fact, some of his 342 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 1: neighbors would try to get away from him because he 343 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:46,639 Speaker 1: wanted to talk so much. Who was that was that? 344 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: Chris mcdonnough or David Leroy? That was Nancy? Jump in, 345 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 1: go ahead. You know what this guy's ego that would 346 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: not surprise me if he tried to, you know, blend 347 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:04,399 Speaker 1: into a party scene. Oh you mean like James Bond 348 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: going into the casino, acting all natural, like he's really gambling. Yeah, 349 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 1: got it. I could see that too, now that you're 350 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 1: saying it that way and really getting off on it. 351 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: What about that, Cheryl. I'm going to come back to you, Chris. 352 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 1: Can't you see him trying to blend into a party? 353 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 1: I have a nineteen year old girl, and there is 354 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:25,679 Speaker 1: no way an almost thirty year old man would blend 355 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: into a party she was at. He would stick out 356 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 1: like a door song. Well I know that, and you 357 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 1: know that, but other partygoers would have come forward. By Now, 358 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: I'm going to give you a classic quote from Caddyshack. 359 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,359 Speaker 1: If you want to catch a varmint, you got to 360 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,679 Speaker 1: think like a varmint. This guy was so obsessed with 361 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: this house and these girls. Back to you, Chris McDonald, 362 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,120 Speaker 1: Chris mcdonnah, can't you see him trying to get closer 363 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 1: and closer and closer to the interior of that home? Absolutely? 364 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 1: And look what he used to do in the bars 365 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 1: where he would project himselfish ladies man, and of course 366 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 1: you know the radar would go up with the women. 367 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: Was like, you know, this guy is just an oddball here. 368 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 1: I could see him in trying to blend in and 369 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: a chameleon, as a chameleon into the college environment. Now 370 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 1: would he fit No, of course not. But his eagle 371 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 1: will not stop him from trying. I'm trying to take 372 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: in everything you guys are saying from j y L. 373 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:33,199 Speaker 1: What do you think about the fact he told the 374 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,879 Speaker 1: defense attorney in Pennsylvania, Hello police again that he was 375 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: quote eager to be exonerated. Hey, Jackie, could you play 376 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: the sound of the lawyer to answer jy L's question. 377 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: I want to examine that the sound that we talked about, 378 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 1: where the lawyer is stating verbatim what Koberger told him. 379 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 1: Let's hear that, jack Thanks. Jason Labar says he first 380 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: met his client at the Monroe County Correctional Facility. Ordinary 381 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 1: rich type guy, he says. The first thing he said 382 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 1: to the suspect was, don't tell me anything about the case. 383 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: Don't tell me any facts. That's information for your Idaho attorney. 384 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: He was very calm, he was aware of what was 385 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: going on. He was aware of the murders. He says 386 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 1: his client was intentional about what was said on his 387 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 1: behalf in the statement to the public. The statement that 388 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,879 Speaker 1: was written was written by myself in my office. But 389 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 1: be exonerated. The ear to be exonerated was his key 390 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: specifically said eager to be exonerated, rather than he was 391 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: innocent or something like that. Did you hear his words 392 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:45,360 Speaker 1: Coburger's Awards through his lawyer, I'm eager to be exonerated, 393 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 1: as opposed to I didn't do this, I had nothing 394 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 1: to do with this. I'm eager to be exonerated. Why 395 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: do you make of that? Guys, let's go to our shrink, 396 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: doctor Angela Arnold, psychiatrist out of Atlanta. Why do you 397 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,919 Speaker 1: make of that warning? It's like he lives above the fray. 398 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 1: It's like he's got some sort of grandiosity to him. 399 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 1: And you know, I'll tell y'all something. I know that 400 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 1: we're trying to say that somehow he was attached to 401 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: these girls that he killed. I don't see that there 402 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: was an attachment that he had. It was a it 403 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 1: was something that he wanted to carry out. It's like 404 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:26,920 Speaker 1: an experiment, doctor Angie. It's like one of his freaky experiments, 405 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,680 Speaker 1: like those questionnaires, he would send a valance. He has 406 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:33,239 Speaker 1: no remorse about it. This is an action that he 407 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 1: wanted to carry out. Okay, if psychopaths don't have any 408 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:42,360 Speaker 1: strong inhibitions about physically injuring other people, then I can 409 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,439 Speaker 1: promise you they don't have any inhibitions about walking into 410 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 1: a party house and trying to make themselves comfortable in there. 411 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: They think differently than other people do, and I know 412 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: that it is very hard to understand. But this man 413 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: is a psychopath all day long, and he thinks differently 414 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: than we do, and that's why it's hard for us 415 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 1: to pinpoint exactly how he was thinking through all of them. 416 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: Here's a question from Corey. How dark is a surrounding 417 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 1: area near the house at night? Corey, it's pitch black. 418 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: It is pitch black and inside, Hey, Sydney, is that 419 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,479 Speaker 1: bottom guys? Is that bottom light on the right on 420 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: the home still turned on? Because when we drove up 421 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 1: in the dark this morning, we were really early getting 422 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:34,880 Speaker 1: year and the light is on the bottom right it 423 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:36,639 Speaker 1: It doesn't look like it's on now, but I know 424 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 1: nobody's going in that house, but it was on this morning, 425 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 1: it appears to be off. Now, hold on, Christ mcdone, 426 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 1: I think that was you can I tell you it's 427 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 1: so dark, Corey, that when the inside of the home 428 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 1: is lit up, you can see everything. I tried to 429 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,680 Speaker 1: take pictures of it and post so everybody could see. 430 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 1: But it's like you're watching a movie where you're in 431 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,200 Speaker 1: the dark, and the movies and the light. That's how 432 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 1: the dark works around this home. It seems as if 433 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 1: it illuminates the inside of the home. That's from Corey. 434 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 1: Go ahead, Chris Nancy, right where you're standing there the 435 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 1: apartment complex, you know up at the top. Yeah, up 436 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 1: there that light that was not working the night of 437 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 1: the incident, that that light was out, so it would 438 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,200 Speaker 1: have been even darker. It was darker. And another thing 439 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: to Corey who sent me this question. I was sitting 440 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,199 Speaker 1: right here last night, and I can look across. The 441 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,959 Speaker 1: street is so tight here, The streets are so narrow. 442 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: This must be a really old area of town, because 443 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 1: the apartments look very old. I can sit right here 444 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 1: and look, and I can tell you what kind of 445 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 1: soda can they have on their ledge? Right there, I 446 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 1: can see what the guy was cooking for dinner. Right 447 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: in that window, and I just wonder. Another person asked 448 00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,719 Speaker 1: how long had he been watching and stalking of the girls. 449 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 1: Did you catch in the problem? Cause after David David 450 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 1: Leroy David Leroy joining me, a high profile lawyer out 451 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: of Boise, Idaho, this is his neck of the woods, 452 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: the cops said, at least twelve times, we've got him 453 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 1: at the murder house. Well, ab certainly would be no accident. 454 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,360 Speaker 1: You don't show up at that particular locale without an 455 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,680 Speaker 1: intend to be in the neighborhood. And if that's as 456 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 1: if visible is indicated, obviously many things were seen and 457 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 1: many things were available to be seen. At least caught 458 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: my attention, Cheryl McCollum, which tells me that he was 459 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 1: here many, many more times than twelve. They only gave 460 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: a nothing that Advidavid to arrest him. They have got 461 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 1: so much more information on him, so much more evidence 462 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 1: on him. I think it's going to be mind boggling. 463 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: But Nancy, let me finish my point about the party, please, 464 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 1: so your listener can hear this. Yeah, even I mentioned 465 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 1: that about Caroline, and he would have stuck out to her. 466 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,959 Speaker 1: The two surviving roommates and any other person at that 467 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 1: party now have his face, they would have already told 468 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: law enforcement he'd been in the house. So again they're 469 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 1: going to already know that because he would have stuck 470 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 1: out like a thirty year old dude, not doing a 471 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: keke Dan, not drinking mystery shots, and not dancing, which 472 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 1: makes me think he may not have ever entered the hall. 473 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: But I guarantee you, Cheryl, he got as close as 474 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 1: he could, even maybe up on the porch to where 475 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: that sliding glass door. And they're two sliding glass doors. 476 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 1: There's one on the side and one on the back. 477 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 1: Oh here's another thing I've learned. You know, at the beginning, 478 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 1: we were speculating that from this angle on the street 479 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 1: you see that entrance. Only only when you come around 480 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 1: to the side do you see the sliding glass door 481 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: entrance on the second floor, and there's another on the back. 482 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 1: We were completely wrong. There's no way you can look 483 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: at this house, even from the front and not know 484 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 1: that there are entrances elsewhere. Because when you come up 485 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,080 Speaker 1: on the house, when you drive up on it and 486 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: see the side, so you see the side before you 487 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 1: see the front, so you would see the other entrances. 488 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace. Another question people are wondering, 489 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 1: let's go to a why the call from roommate to 490 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 1: nine on one state it was an unconscious person. Clearly 491 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: it was a bloody scene. There is speculation that one 492 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 1: of the roommates passed out and wouldn't wake up. I 493 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 1: find that to be too coincidental. I think that they 494 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 1: call nine one one about the dead bodies. What do 495 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 1: you think, guys? I agree if we take into consideration 496 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: the roommate who witnessed the perpetrator. Her room is directly 497 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 1: below where Kaylie and Madison where their lives were taken, 498 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 1: so she had to have heard a lot of information 499 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 1: going down which put her well. I find the phrasing 500 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 1: in the APPI Davit where the investigator says the frozen state, 501 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: and so there's a variety of other things taking place 502 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 1: here in her statement that we're just not privy to 503 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 1: at this point. And so that wouldn't surprise me that 504 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: that trauma took over and she either froze for quite 505 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 1: some time, because that suspect, not only was she listening 506 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 1: to what was going on, she heard him, she saw him, 507 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 1: and then at this point that really must have played 508 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 1: a major role in her psyche and relationship to her 509 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:58,960 Speaker 1: being potentially taken as well. I also heard a speculation 510 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 1: that was simply and in the very early initial dispatch 511 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 1: category that was entered into the record when somebody called 512 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 1: in and without any detail, the unconscious person was entered 513 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,479 Speaker 1: in the logs. I think that's just as logical as 514 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: somebody not fully describing what they did see. Guys, here's 515 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 1: some more questions. Here's Jackson on Twitter. I'd like to 516 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 1: see how far the house is from the school and 517 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 1: all the reporting we see the house and the town. 518 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 1: How close is the school from home? Guys? Is the 519 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 1: Sigma Kai house on school property? Oh? It's just off, Actually, 520 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 1: it's off. Well, I would say that we're only maybe 521 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 1: two blocks from where the school starts, Max, And that's 522 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 1: as the growth lies. Because I'm looking over, I can 523 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 1: see campus from here. That's correct. That ridge up there said, 524 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 1: isn't that campus? Yeah? I see everybody going to class 525 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: from here. People are going down this stretch right here, 526 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 1: going to and from class as we're talking. So it's 527 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 1: really really close. Again, the streets are so tight, there's 528 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: no way if there have been surveillance videocams here that 529 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 1: they would not have caught the car. Okay, here's here's one. 530 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 1: The dad anyway, he was aware his son was involved, 531 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 1: especially after the FBI was looking for a white car. 532 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 1: If he didn't not the dad did not know that 533 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 1: Ellie was looking for a white launcher, he would probably 534 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 1: be the only one in the country that didn't know. 535 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 1: And then he goes and gets his son in Pullman 536 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 1: ten minutes from the murder scene and drives him home. 537 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 1: I mean, how could he not know? Nancy? I think 538 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 1: there's a couple of things to point out about Dad. 539 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 1: Was he sent there, you know, in recent days to 540 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 1: drive back with him, or was that something planned before 541 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 1: the murders. I'd like to it was long plan, and 542 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 1: it was long plan. He'd stop my law enforcement dad 543 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: is answering questions for him to the officer. Is that 544 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,760 Speaker 1: something he typically one of them say they were going 545 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 1: for ty food? Said it? Who the hey would say 546 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:12,800 Speaker 1: we're going for ty food on the day I'm driving home. 547 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 1: That's a lie, right. His parents also had to know, 548 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 1: and this is where patterns come in. How often did 549 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 1: he take out the trash? I bet he didn't never 550 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,359 Speaker 1: take it out with a four am Brian, how many 551 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:27,919 Speaker 1: times in the freezing cold that he'd cleaned his car? 552 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 1: I bet never. Here's another question, guys from the v ee. 553 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 1: How big are the windows? Could he see? I guess 554 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: she's sucking about d s in DM and bedrooms. Maybe 555 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:45,439 Speaker 1: lights on if he was looking from a distance before 556 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 1: or after the crime. Oh my goodness, they're big and 557 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:51,799 Speaker 1: they don't have the criss cross panes in them. They're 558 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 1: just big, clear paned windows. What would you say that? 559 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 1: They're about four by four windows? Three by four. They're big. 560 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 1: They looked to be the windows that you slide open 561 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:11,800 Speaker 1: horizontally because they're not pained. There's nothing obscuring his vision. 562 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 1: Here's from Gina. Everyone saying Dylan locked eyes with the killer. 563 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 1: That's not in the PC document. Any idea of the 564 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:22,959 Speaker 1: killer actually saw her as he was leaving. I would 565 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 1: say a big note of that. That's online rumors that 566 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 1: they locked eyes. Nobody has said that except on social media. 567 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 1: And I think if the killer actually locked eyes with 568 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 1: her or saw her, he would have killed her. Two. 569 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 1: He walked through the room that was totally dark with 570 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 1: that neon light shining that said good vibes, And I 571 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:51,400 Speaker 1: think amazingly, he walked right by her. Here was a 572 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:53,720 Speaker 1: question about how far the house is from the school. 573 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 1: Here's a really good one from Kara. Any unsolved murders 574 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 1: in a sixty mile radius from Pullman since this summer? 575 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 1: How about sixteen miles from his home in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, 576 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 1: New York? What about that? I mean, how likely is it, 577 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:13,239 Speaker 1: doctor Angela Arnold, that he goes from zero to one 578 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,720 Speaker 1: hundred mph on his first try, that he goes into 579 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 1: a home and in sixteen minutes stabs dead four people 580 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,040 Speaker 1: and almost gets away with it. And of course he's 581 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 1: assumed innocent until proven guilty. We know that. But that 582 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:35,200 Speaker 1: does that happen overnight? Or is this just round two 583 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: or three for him? I believe it's going to be 584 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 1: round two or three or ten for him. And I 585 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 1: have a feeling we have found a serial killer that 586 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 1: has been living amongst us, and I shudder to think 587 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 1: that what we're going to discover that he's done, I 588 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 1: really did. What do you think, guys, anybody else want 589 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:55,319 Speaker 1: to jump in on that? Do you think this is 590 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:58,960 Speaker 1: his first time? I don't. I believe that he's a 591 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:04,280 Speaker 1: mesh murder who is in development to become a cereal. 592 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 1: And I think some of the programs that the FEDS, 593 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 1: you know the ViCAP program for an example of the 594 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 1: Violent Information Criminal Apprehension Program, all this data is going 595 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,799 Speaker 1: to be put into that, and then that will flow 596 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,759 Speaker 1: into NCIC. And I think at this point, investigators from 597 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:25,680 Speaker 1: around the country, if he is a surreal, we'll start 598 00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:29,719 Speaker 1: doing an investigative analysis and do some comparisons. Yeah, you 599 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 1: know this is this Chris mcdonna speaking Chris, I can 600 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,320 Speaker 1: guarantee you that they have already taken a vehicle swab 601 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,839 Speaker 1: or some people say a buckle swab out of his mouth. 602 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 1: It's like sticking a Q tip in there and rubbing 603 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,359 Speaker 1: it against the inside lining of your mouth. And now 604 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:46,400 Speaker 1: they have You get that through a search warrant. Just 605 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:47,840 Speaker 1: like you get a search warrant for a home or 606 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,480 Speaker 1: a car or a safe deposit box. You get a 607 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 1: search wart for a person, and you can get their 608 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,320 Speaker 1: blood type, you can get their DNA from the inside 609 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,960 Speaker 1: their mouth, you can get pubic hares, you can get 610 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,880 Speaker 1: a lot from there. Is considered a search under the 611 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:06,520 Speaker 1: Fourth Amendment of our Constitution. Now that they have his DNA, 612 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:10,200 Speaker 1: it can be compared to DNA found at crime scenes 613 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,520 Speaker 1: all across the country, and I can only assume that's 614 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:17,880 Speaker 1: happening right now. Here's another question, get ready, David Leroy, 615 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,000 Speaker 1: I want to know if any of your legal experts 616 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,720 Speaker 1: are concerned about the basis for the initial initial search 617 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 1: warrant for his sales GEO location. And I gotta say no, 618 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 1: because when they got the restaurant, they had to have 619 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:35,719 Speaker 1: PC for that. They had to have PC for that. 620 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,799 Speaker 1: They also had to have probable cause to get his 621 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:42,680 Speaker 1: cell phone records. And what they had at that time 622 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:47,200 Speaker 1: is a white Elantra close to the murder scene. And 623 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:54,120 Speaker 1: two WSU Washington State University cops spotted the white Elantra 624 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:58,880 Speaker 1: right there in Pullman, ten minutes away from the murder scene. 625 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 1: And what we didn't know at the time that we 626 00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:06,719 Speaker 1: learned later is d M had already given her description 627 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:13,279 Speaker 1: of a tall, white male with bushy eyebrows, athletic but 628 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 1: not muscular. So these two cops at WSU c the Elantra. 629 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 1: They connected back through the college registration to Coburger, So 630 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 1: they've got his name and they've got the Elantra, and 631 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:35,600 Speaker 1: he fits d m's description of the purp. That's more 632 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:39,680 Speaker 1: than enough PC to get a search warrant for his 633 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:44,440 Speaker 1: cell phone. Would you disagree or agree? David Leroy, I'm slar. 634 00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,399 Speaker 1: Your argument is very compelling. This is meant to buy 635 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:51,080 Speaker 1: the book in terms of the investigation and in terms 636 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,879 Speaker 1: of the logical steps the police have taken. I think 637 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:58,120 Speaker 1: you very nicely summarized where that went and likely what 638 00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:01,680 Speaker 1: the effa they've been in support of the So here's 639 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:05,520 Speaker 1: another question for Stephanie. I'm curious about the previously reported 640 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,759 Speaker 1: automatic locks on each of the bedroom doors. How did 641 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:11,640 Speaker 1: he get in? Were they propped open or were those 642 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:15,840 Speaker 1: reports of automatic locks not true? We got the reports 643 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,960 Speaker 1: from an automatic locks on each bedroom door from a 644 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:25,880 Speaker 1: previous tenant. I cannot imagine that they have been removed. However, 645 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,120 Speaker 1: we don't know whether the doors were propped open to 646 00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:32,239 Speaker 1: avoid sticking in the code every time they went in 647 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:37,520 Speaker 1: and out of the room, which is entirely possible. But Kelly, 648 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:41,279 Speaker 1: looking right down behind me, the automatic the keypad on 649 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:43,680 Speaker 1: the door lock is still there. I think I noticed 650 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,960 Speaker 1: it last night. But I think it's much more likely 651 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,360 Speaker 1: he came in through a sliding glass door and that 652 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:53,640 Speaker 1: the bedroom doors that he got into were not totally closed. 653 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:59,360 Speaker 1: That would be my best guests. Also, hold on, guys, 654 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,680 Speaker 1: why did they wait so long to arrest him? It 655 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,560 Speaker 1: seems like they knew it was him, They suspect that 656 00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:10,040 Speaker 1: it was him, or much earlier. Why let risk letting him, 657 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,600 Speaker 1: letting him get away or commit another crime. I think 658 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:16,600 Speaker 1: because they wanted to stake him out and see what 659 00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:20,560 Speaker 1: he would do, like wash his car inside and out 660 00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:23,840 Speaker 1: in the early morning hours and the freezing cold outside, 661 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,959 Speaker 1: like throw his DNA in trash into the neighbor's receptacle. 662 00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:30,080 Speaker 1: What do you think, Cheryl McCall him? Why did they 663 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:32,319 Speaker 1: take so long, Nancy? I think they were waiting for 664 00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:35,040 Speaker 1: the DNA to come back. I think that was done 665 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:38,200 Speaker 1: so quickly. I think once they got the sample, they 666 00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,560 Speaker 1: got the profile and it matched the trash. I think 667 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,200 Speaker 1: that's what they were waiting. Now, guys, we are still 668 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:48,480 Speaker 1: taking all of your questions. Find us on social on ANSTA, 669 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:52,719 Speaker 1: on Facebook, on Twitter. Let me hear your questions. We'll 670 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:56,080 Speaker 1: try to answer them. We are live here in Moscow, 671 00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,680 Speaker 1: just outside the murders singing. I can tell you right now, 672 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:05,759 Speaker 1: the silence and the pall over this whole area remains. 673 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:10,400 Speaker 1: We wait as the evidence unfolds. I'll see in court 674 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:13,759 Speaker 1: to morrow for that status hearing. Goodbye friend,