WEBVTT - Breaking Down Burnout with Eve Ettinger 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.120 Welcome to Worst Year Ever, a production of I Heart 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:20.640 Radio Everything. So don't don't all right, we'll just started, 0:00:20.680 --> 0:00:29.720 I guess yeah, have we started at the same time. 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:39.040 Oh yeah, we did it. Welcome We're here now, Okay, Hello, 0:00:39.400 --> 0:00:41.839 it's magic. It's magic how that happens. One minute we 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:45.800 aren't here and then the next minute we are seamlessly 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:52.600 professionally all Hi guys, Welcome back to the Worst Year Ever. 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:54.560 I had to think about it for a second. I 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:58.840 was like, yeah, I heard that. Still is um no 0:00:59.000 --> 0:01:02.520 fun puns you include or adjust on the fly. Here, 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:14.760 I'm Katie Soul. Uh. It's Cody Johnston Johnston and today 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:19.800 you introduce yourself. Okay, I'm I'm eve At Injured. Nice 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:22.920 to be here with y'all again. We're happy to have 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:28.120 you back. Uh. Robert is not here with us this week. Um, 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:30.920 and I get to make all the jokes about him now. Yeah, 0:01:31.800 --> 0:01:35.200 And so we Sophie frantically reached out to eve uh 0:01:35.280 --> 0:01:38.360 and they agreed to join us, which we were thrilled about. Well, 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:42.840 it wasn't exactly, I just it wasn't frantic, calmly and responsibly, 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:46.480 calmly and delightedly because it took him. She was like, 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:49.040 how about Eve, And we were like, yeah, absolutely, Well, 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:52.560 Eve wrote this article for Bustle. Is that correct? Is 0:01:52.560 --> 0:01:56.960 that the publication pronounced boost? Yeah? Oh, thank you so much, 0:01:57.000 --> 0:02:00.160 Thank you so much, Katie. UM and I really thought 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:02.800 it was something that needed to be talked about even more. 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:04.800 It was such a beautifully written article that is so 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:10.040 poignant to the Times right now, and I loved it 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:13.400 and I'm so glad that Eve has given us their 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:17.840 time to talk so much. The fact that people are 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:23.519 resonating with it is really depressing. Um, but really it's 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:27.200 really nice. Um. Yeah, the response has been really cool 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:32.240 to see. It's it's yeah, it's absolutely something that we 0:02:32.320 --> 0:02:36.880 all resonate with right now. And I think the way 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:39.440 you put it so eloquently, I mean in the in 0:02:39.520 --> 0:02:42.120 the piece, you can talk about the piece, but it 0:02:42.360 --> 0:02:47.480 basically it is something that relating these experiences in these 0:02:47.480 --> 0:02:53.239 symptoms of burnout to your own experience with CPTSD and 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:57.920 seeing those parallels and maybe reframing how we think about 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:01.600 what it means to be burnt out out. Um and 0:03:01.680 --> 0:03:05.560 more people are are realizing it as they are experiencing 0:03:05.560 --> 0:03:08.079 these symptoms that maybe it's not just burnout. Maybe we are. 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:12.919 Maybe we are experiencing the thing that we all collectively 0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:16.600 warned about, which was a severe trauma for the past 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:19.200 few years. You know. Well, the way I kind of 0:03:19.200 --> 0:03:20.760 went into it, and I've been I worked on this 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:23.760 piece since August last year, so months and months, and 0:03:23.840 --> 0:03:26.040 I had to cut so much out of it, and 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:29.440 there were so many valuable moments that made it in 0:03:29.440 --> 0:03:32.040 and others that didn't. And I just I probably could 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:35.920 have written like ten words on it easy. Um. But 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:39.760 I kind of went into it being like, my theory 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:44.440 is that burnout doesn't exist. It's just complex PTSD for 0:03:45.760 --> 0:03:50.600 that now because capitalism is eating the rich alife too. 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:54.920 Now we're talking about it, giving it, we're giving it 0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:59.240 the like you know, a fancy name burnout and um, 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:01.640 and this is on a new phenomenon and everybody's been 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:04.920 experiencing this for forever if you're not privileged and that 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:09.240 white and um, so I, you know, kind of with 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:13.120 that theory, decided to go see if I was confined anything. 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:17.760 And oh boy, everybody was too excited to talk to me, yea, 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:22.719 which is really upsetting. Yeah, for sure. Um, do you 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:26.159 want to give a brief summary of the article for 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:31.200 our listeners and everyone should go read this article. It's phenomenal. Pause, 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:35.960 go read and come back. Don't do that then yeah. Yeah, 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:38.839 So basically, UM, in the article, I kind of cover 0:04:40.240 --> 0:04:46.279 complex PTSD UM as a phenomenon and comparing it to burnout. 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:52.119 So going and asking these people who are pretty open 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:55.880 about their experiences of burnout, especially most of them are 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:59.279 women of color, talking about, um, you know, what it 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:02.760 means to be really successful person in their field and 0:05:02.800 --> 0:05:07.080 also experienced burnout and how they define it and what 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:10.760 you know they would like to see happen and change, 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:14.800 and then kind of comparing that to my own experience 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:19.400 of complex PTSD and like watching the symptoms like dovetail 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:26.240 and UM. And then I took this to um some 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:31.480 researchers when he's a former family doctor who now specializes 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:36.920 in preventing physician burnout and helping hospital administrators like revamp 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:39.360 their systems to do that, and you know, kind of 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:41.960 asked him like what's your take and he was like yes, 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:49.080 finally UM. And then UM, this wonderful gentleman named Thanos 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:54.400 Um who's a yeah, the great, great name. He's a 0:05:54.560 --> 0:05:58.800 researcher in Scotland. Um. You know, he helped develop the 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:04.039 Definite Definition of complex PTSD for um, the you know, 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:07.960 equivalent of the d s M five that everybody except 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:11.480 for the US uses. Uh So, quait real quick, just 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:17.160 define what d s M guide is for people five? Sorry? Um, yeah, 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:23.240 d s M is the diagnostic manual and I I'm 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:27.360 blinking on the exact acronym, but it's a diagnostic manual 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:32.040 that you is used to diagnose mental health issues. So 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:35.800 complex PTSD is not in it. Yeah, but there's a 0:06:35.880 --> 0:06:38.240 lot of things that aren't in it that should be 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:39.880 in it. There's a lot of things that are in 0:06:39.960 --> 0:06:41.560 it that shouldn't be in it. There's a lot of 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:46.599 things that are mislabeled, and so it's only as good 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:48.280 as like what you want to use it for. And 0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:52.520 it's basically it's basically a way of justifying treatment to 0:06:52.600 --> 0:06:57.720 insurance companies. It's allowed to crap. But when when he 0:06:57.800 --> 0:07:00.479 when I emailed him about it, he was like, oh 0:07:00.480 --> 0:07:02.960 my god, we've been talking about this. Um, I'd love 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:04.240 to talk to you. And I was like, oh no, 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:11.640 here we go again. So yeah, it seems like one 0:07:11.640 --> 0:07:13.520 of the interesting things is like burnout is not a 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:18.680 medical condition. Burnout is a phenomenon that shows up that 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:24.240 can have medical side effects, but it's not recognized as 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:27.520 a medical diagnosable condition. So then what the funk is? 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:32.080 It was really what I was starting to figure out. Yeah, 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:37.080 And I mean it does resonate with everybody right now. 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:39.320 I just want to circle back to like this point. 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:43.200 Right now, everybody's feeling this, uh in different degrees or 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:45.480 has been over the past couple of years, and even 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:50.760 before that, uh, during this past administration and the world 0:07:50.920 --> 0:07:56.000 getting worse and climate change, and it's not gonna It's 0:07:56.040 --> 0:07:59.520 not going to go away, is I guess? My point? Um? 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:02.360 And and and it is very a point, very well 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:07.320 taken that you make in the piece about how it 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:12.240 is about the rich, white, primarily like people of the 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:15.440 world waking up to the reality that the vast majority 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:19.160 of people have been experiencing and the level of anxiety 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:21.840 and what that actually physically does to your body, you know. 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:25.400 So he was talking about this earlier, just there's an 0:08:25.440 --> 0:08:27.760 element of it that's not even something you can control. 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:31.280 It's a physical response. Well, and there's this also this 0:08:31.400 --> 0:08:34.560 thing that's happening, and I wasn't really able to include 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:36.360 this in the piece, but it was in the back 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:39.400 of my mind. It's like, we don't have a way 0:08:39.440 --> 0:08:42.880 to turn off work in a way that past generations have. 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:46.240 So the wealthy have always been a leisure class. And 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:51.040 now the wealthy are proving that they can work harder 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:53.600 than anyone else because they have access to things and 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:57.400 they you know, they can have someone on call, and 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:00.120 they can have the private jet and they so they 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:02.000 can be anywhere whenever they want to be. So they're 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:05.840 just like, it's not a leisure class anymore. And suddenly 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:10.040 they're experiencing that same kind of like loss of margin, 0:09:10.760 --> 0:09:14.600 loss of space to rest and play as everybody else's. 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:20.680 And it's not threatening their you know, actual existence in 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:24.280 the ways that it is everybody else, but um, they're 0:09:24.320 --> 0:09:27.400 experiencing some consequences, and so now we're talking about burnout. 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:30.920 Yeah right. They like push, like hustle culture and like 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:33.720 the grind for so long and then they adopted themselves 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:35.920 and they're like, oh wait, this is actually kind of 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:38.840 terrible lean in, but oh, maybe we should leave our 0:09:38.840 --> 0:09:43.720 phones outside of our bedroom at night. Yeah, no TVs 0:09:43.880 --> 0:09:48.000 in the space where you sleep. Mm hmmm. For those 0:09:48.080 --> 0:09:51.080 people that can afford a place with more than one bedroom. 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:54.440 I was going to ask Sophie, what what about the 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:56.800 piece resonated so much because you were very excited to 0:09:56.800 --> 0:09:59.800 talk about it. Yeah, I mean, I think that you know, 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:03.959 your connection to the economic system and and how Bernard 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:06.959 is a form of oppression was very uh, something that 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:09.480 stuck out to me. I think that, you know, the 0:10:09.520 --> 0:10:13.840 conversation around complex PTSD is not a conversation that happens 0:10:14.120 --> 0:10:20.200 very often. UM, I have PTSD, and complex PTSD has 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:23.199 never been brought up to me in a professional setting 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:25.320 and has been brought up to me by you know, 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:28.959 a loved one being like, hey, I don't, I don't, 0:10:29.040 --> 0:10:30.960 I don't know. Maybe this is what that is. And 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:33.040 I'm like, what are you talking about? And so, I 0:10:34.120 --> 0:10:36.800 what do you mean. I'm I've just worked too much, 0:10:36.960 --> 0:10:40.120 I'm just tired. I'm just over. You know, there's a war, 0:10:41.320 --> 0:10:45.600 the planets on fire, you know, things like that, and yeah, 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:48.000 So I think those two things really stuck out to me. 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:52.679 And you know, knowing that you wrote it meant like 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:56.480 got of course got my attention because you're so brilliant 0:10:56.679 --> 0:10:59.440 and the way you wrote this article. I really loved it, 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:03.680 even than really loved it. I'm glad that complex PTSD 0:11:03.840 --> 0:11:08.560 is getting some intention it should understood. Yeah, and and 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:11.920 for me that stood out. I uh, I had not 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:17.240 considered it before. PTSD has seemed like as much as 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:20.360 I talk about it and and talk about awaren as 0:11:20.360 --> 0:11:22.679 we all do, I think an awareness of it when 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:26.720 people say that they're they're struggling with it and um, 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:28.760 but it hasn't seemed like something that I could be 0:11:28.800 --> 0:11:35.560 experiencing personally and experienced trauma. No, I'm fine, and and 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:38.400 I have realized that I've had it. But prior to this, 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:41.959 to this article, um, and at least in certain arenas 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:44.720 of my life, but I had this really did um 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:49.600 make me stop and see like, oh, oh, I see 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:52.040 how this is manifesting in different areas and other and 0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:55.360 other ways that this is also a trauma response. And 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:59.839 for me personally, at least in my past, when I 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:05.040 name something, that's the first step towards having relief. Almost. Um. 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:08.720 So if I'm able to pinpoint what this, this physical 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:12.640 sensation that I'm experiencing is bigger than me. There's a 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:15.440 piece in that, and so it's vitally important. I think 0:12:15.480 --> 0:12:20.720 that people are are educated have the tools to to 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:24.040 understand what's happening in our bodies because most people don't 0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:26.440 know most of us do not have access to our 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:30.720 emotional life and can articulate what we're experiencing. Sorry, go ahead, no, 0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:32.280 I was just gonna say, this brings me back to 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:34.640 the d s M, because like what we have is 0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:38.240 like you know, diagnoses, a lot of people treat it 0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:43.599 as a like a like characteristic like I have it 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:47.040 in eyebrows like that. I also have PTSD. I will 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:49.880 always have both like that kind of level of like 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:56.720 fixedness to your your persona and who you are. And um, 0:12:56.800 --> 0:13:00.920 it's the like a diagnosis of mtal health issues just 0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:04.640 a description of a cluster of symptoms like it's a 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:09.160 it's a it's a like a description of a manifestation 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:14.440 of something in your body. Um, and it doesn't describe you. 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:16.960 And so I think that's one of the reasons that 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:19.760 there's so much I don't know if you saw the 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:22.640 like piece about like trauma plot that was going around 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:25.040 lit Twitter a couple of weeks back. I didn't, but 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:28.480 like there's this like ongoing fight about like at least 0:13:28.480 --> 0:13:33.360 everything Channa now um, And I'm like, yeah, Actually I 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:42.080 was going, that's not interesting. Like it's both like I'm sorry, 0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:44.520 a rape is not an origin story for like an 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:48.520 interesting character. Try harder, and also like, yeah, everything is 0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:50.800 probably trauma in ways that you didn't expect, Like your 0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:53.640 body is going to like react to things and you're 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:56.280 going to carry that with you and everyone has a 0:13:56.320 --> 0:14:01.520 different way of um my personal term for the way 0:14:01.600 --> 0:14:05.560 I described like processing intense emotions is emotional metabolism, Like 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:09.679 everyone's emotional metabolism has a different rate, Like you're going 0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:12.560 to carry that in your body for longer or less time, 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:16.480 depending on who you are. So sure, like something might 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:20.160 be really intense and really like you know lingering that 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:23.320 for someone else might be minuscule and not not a 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:27.280 big deal. Might just like you know, they wouldn't even 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:31.840 think about it twice. Also some of those people, oh 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:37.960 is everything about trauma? Yes, and you too, sir or 0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:42.400 madam or non binary binary person you know, like it's 0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:45.600 it's we all have it, and there is a freedom 0:14:45.600 --> 0:14:49.680 and acknowledging it because they're carrying that we are ashamed 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:53.080 of is rooted in trauma, Like the things that you 0:14:53.120 --> 0:14:56.760 struggle with are rooted with this. These these formative experiences 0:14:56.840 --> 0:15:02.120 and if you can acknowledge it, you'll feel better. The 0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:05.080 people who bitch about everything being drama and using the 0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:07.360 word trauma too much, I feel like the same kind 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:08.960 of people. And I'm not saying they are the same 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:11.240 kind of people, but like they feel similar to the 0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:13.080 people who are like, well, I got spanked as a 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:20.000 kid and I turned out fine. You're saying, you're saying 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:24.440 that clearly you're okay with hitting small people. Know. I 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:26.520 was gonna say, yeah, like I gotta spanking as a kid, 0:15:26.520 --> 0:15:28.400 and I turned out fine. And so to my kids 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:31.320 who I spank, they're fine too, Like, okay, so you're 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:35.520 spanking your kids then, so yeah, that is that the 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:40.320 healthiest way for you to release your anger or frustration? Right? 0:15:40.400 --> 0:15:45.000 Are they really listening to you? You know? Um? Yeah? 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:48.440 Can I can I just like check on definitions here, 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:51.840 like in terms of like PTSD versus c PTSD. Please, 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:55.040 I don't know that everybody's like, you know, like we're 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:58.440 talking about not everybody's run into it. So um, I'm 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:01.600 gonna grow strawberry and a Robert metaphor for this, Like 0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:05.320 you can you can like cook meat in the ground 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:10.360 over a million hours like he does sometimes um, real slowly, 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:14.120 real low um, and it will taste great. And you 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:18.080 can flash cook a steak on a grill real fast 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:22.240 and it will also taste great. But you know, the 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:27.320 PTSD is the flash Ryan. Um, It's it's a you know, 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:29.880 an isolated incident. You can point to it and say 0:16:29.960 --> 0:16:36.560 this is what happened. Um. And like when I got 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:40.640 my complex PTSD diagnosis, which like is not really a 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:45.280 thing given DSM stuff, but like is a thing. Um, 0:16:45.400 --> 0:16:48.400 my therapist was like, okay, so like what's your primary trauma? 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:56.560 And I was like, my what It was like, uh no, 0:16:56.720 --> 0:16:58.880 that's not that's not that's not a question that will 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:01.960 work here. Um. And that's kind of how it is. 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:05.919 It's like, it's this is the slow cooker experience, Like 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:11.199 it's the act of cooking is taking so long that 0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:14.840 you can't delineate it from one to the next. It 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:22.240 just like it exists to everything. Yeah, it's just it's like, yeah, 0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:25.959 it's the air you breathe. You don't even know that 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:30.840 you're in it until you leave it. Usually. Well yeah, 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:37.160 yeah that's really well said. Um. So if you should 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:38.800 we take a break now, this would be a great 0:17:38.800 --> 0:17:41.520 time to take a break. I think we're gonna take 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:45.240 a break real quick. Perhaps perhaps would now be a 0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:48.640 good time to take a break. I'm just wondering. Probably, 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:52.200 probably do we want a break, Katie? Break? I think, yeah, 0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:54.760 I think maybe we can do this for another minute 0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:57.560 and then we take a break. Just go ahead and 0:17:57.560 --> 0:17:59.800 then but we but with spend a minute of asking 0:17:59.840 --> 0:18:02.359 if we think that we should probably talk about it first? 0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:06.520 How do we feel about taking a break? I don't 0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:11.640 know anymore. I'm dead, feel like a little two burnt out. 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:14.159 You know, I'm just gonna call it. We're gonna take 0:18:14.160 --> 0:18:23.440 a quick break, and then we're gonna be back everything. 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:28.520 So don't don't, don't. And we're back from that break, right. 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:30.840 It was good. We feel good to be back from break. 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:36.480 Did we talk about this yet? Were I just barked 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:38.800 right ahead? I'm so sorry. I did it again. I 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:42.960 did it again, just so we're all good. We're all good, 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:46.000 you say, okay, well, thanks for checking in. We turned 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:54.680 out fine. Yeah, Sophie, why don't you you had something 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:57.600 interesting you wanted to just start us off with. We 0:18:57.680 --> 0:18:59.679 talked a little bit bit about the first thing that 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:02.159 stuck with me from the article, which was you know, 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:05.119 the complex PTSD aspect of it, but I wanted to 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:07.600 get into a little bit of you know, how the 0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:14.000 economic system influences this and how uh it can lead 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:19.680 to oppression and different different, different things like that, and um, yeah, 0:19:19.880 --> 0:19:22.720 so you know, easy topics like that, Yeah, really really 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:29.840 easy topics like that. M yeah yeah, Well, I mean 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:35.399 capitalism is designed to like keep you busy, and capitalism 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:39.480 is designed to constantly be taking from someone, and um, 0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:42.199 you have to like eat your feelings about that in 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:48.680 order to like keep going. Um. And you know, it's 0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:51.600 that classic MLM. Capitalism is an m L and that's 0:19:51.600 --> 0:19:54.720 how like we got MLMs. I don't know, um, but 0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:58.920 the thing is, like, yeah, the way I think about it, 0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:02.440 in the way I was recognizing these things as people 0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:05.919 were talking about them is I grew up in a 0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:09.440 fundamentalist group and I considered a cult. And like one 0:20:09.440 --> 0:20:12.719 of the things that was really useful to keep people 0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:17.879 from questioning the leadership is to have everyone be constantly 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:20.840 on edge about like how good they were and like 0:20:21.000 --> 0:20:23.199 whether or not God love them, and like how they 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:26.720 were measuring up. And so this constantly anxiety, this like 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:32.280 ambient anxiety about like your performance and your worthiness like 0:20:32.600 --> 0:20:36.320 kept you, you know, distracted, so that you didn't have 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:39.919 any energy to think about like huh now how did 0:20:39.960 --> 0:20:43.400 I end up here? Like you and urge, Um, why 0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:46.240 is this a good idea? Uh? And I think that 0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:51.159 like having so little margin on life, you know I 0:20:51.200 --> 0:20:54.080 talked about like room to play and rest, Like we 0:20:54.119 --> 0:20:57.480 don't have that in most of our our day to 0:20:57.560 --> 0:21:00.919 day lives, and so we don't have time. Aim, you 0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:05.959 cannot be creative unless you're bored a little bit, So 0:21:06.000 --> 0:21:10.359 you cannot be You cannot be able to like really 0:21:10.920 --> 0:21:13.800 analyze you know, why am I hearing? Do I like this? 0:21:15.080 --> 0:21:17.560 Unless you have that space and so like getting to 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:23.119 burnout point, having that crisis, like that point of collapse, 0:21:23.280 --> 0:21:26.560 like that's where you finally get time, and that's when 0:21:26.600 --> 0:21:28.840 you finally realize, like what the fund have I been doing? 0:21:29.680 --> 0:21:33.600 Because capitalism is designed to keep us like ambiently anxious 0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:39.480 and caring you also everybody else and like not questioning anything. Yeah, 0:21:39.880 --> 0:21:47.280 you can't recover from that kind of deep fatigue with 0:21:47.400 --> 0:21:50.679 a long weekend where you're also trying to do your 0:21:50.760 --> 0:21:55.720 laundry and like, um, organized the drawers that you've been 0:21:55.760 --> 0:21:57.679 putting you know whatever, it is like you get the 0:21:57.880 --> 0:22:00.719 you get to the weekend, and it's not the same thing. 0:22:00.760 --> 0:22:07.240 This is we're talking about starvation, Like your body needs 0:22:07.240 --> 0:22:11.359 to heal deeply and we don't have time. I recently 0:22:11.400 --> 0:22:16.000 went through a huge breakup and it's dramatic loss of 0:22:16.040 --> 0:22:19.000 a family member all at the same time, and it 0:22:19.040 --> 0:22:23.840 was just ugly. But work was ramping up and for 0:22:23.920 --> 0:22:28.439 the right I felt so grateful for all of the 0:22:28.440 --> 0:22:31.320 good opportunities and that I needed to show up for 0:22:31.359 --> 0:22:34.080 all of them. But I needed to heal too, and 0:22:34.119 --> 0:22:37.920 there wasn't time for both of that, and it made 0:22:37.960 --> 0:22:40.240 my work suffer for a while, you know, and I 0:22:40.320 --> 0:22:42.399 but I at a certain point I recognized what was 0:22:42.440 --> 0:22:45.720 happening and just gave myself permission to cut as many 0:22:45.840 --> 0:22:48.560 corners as I needed for the remainder of the year 0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:51.720 at least. And like a hallmark of trauma, it's like 0:22:51.800 --> 0:22:56.439 you had like that intense mormonal response to get you 0:22:56.480 --> 0:23:01.880 through the bush, and you can't sustain that love yeah operating, 0:23:02.000 --> 0:23:05.600 and so you crash afterward. And so like I'm really 0:23:05.600 --> 0:23:10.200 good en a crisis and then like and then yeah, 0:23:10.760 --> 0:23:16.760 like two weeks later, I'll be like, um, and you 0:23:16.800 --> 0:23:19.880 know that delayed reaction is you know, just a part 0:23:19.880 --> 0:23:23.280 of like who I am because of complex PTSD, and 0:23:23.480 --> 0:23:25.960 I think that like we see this all over the 0:23:26.000 --> 0:23:29.040 place here with like you know, people will go through 0:23:29.080 --> 0:23:30.959 stuff and they'll be like why am I acting like 0:23:31.000 --> 0:23:32.840 this like a month later or a week later, and 0:23:32.880 --> 0:23:35.280 I'm just like, yeah, you just went through this, this, this, 0:23:35.320 --> 0:23:38.479 and this, and they're like uh, And I'm like, you 0:23:38.480 --> 0:23:41.200 haven't rested, you haven't like recovered, you haven't actually processed 0:23:41.200 --> 0:23:45.840 any of that. You culture doesn't. We don't talk about it, 0:23:46.200 --> 0:23:49.600 so we don't make space for it, you know, in 0:23:49.640 --> 0:23:53.280 the same way, and people have that internalized capitalism, that 0:23:53.560 --> 0:23:59.200 idea of identities connected with our productivity, and so they don't. 0:24:00.200 --> 0:24:02.560 We all don't feel like we can take that time 0:24:02.560 --> 0:24:07.760 in space to endure it and continue. Yeah. Yeah, So 0:24:07.800 --> 0:24:09.800 one of the other things in this article that you 0:24:10.040 --> 0:24:13.760 wrote that they discusses, you know, you can wake up, 0:24:14.280 --> 0:24:18.240 you can do your normal routine, but you're still like 0:24:18.359 --> 0:24:22.320 in this trauma response and doing your normal routine can 0:24:22.400 --> 0:24:25.440 be like part of that. At least my and my experience. 0:24:25.480 --> 0:24:27.280 It's like Okay, it's the way like it keeps you 0:24:27.280 --> 0:24:29.119 going as a momentum. Yeah, I can get up, I 0:24:29.160 --> 0:24:31.280 can do X, Y and Z, I can do my job, 0:24:31.359 --> 0:24:35.560 I can call my friends. But like you're you're not 0:24:35.880 --> 0:24:38.640 you're not you're you're not your best self in any way, 0:24:38.680 --> 0:24:41.840 shape or form, but you're able to go through the motions. 0:24:42.800 --> 0:24:46.760 If that makes sense. Um, Yeah, that that was the 0:24:46.800 --> 0:24:51.840 other thing. I was like there, Yeah, I'm the I'm 0:24:51.880 --> 0:24:54.160 the friend who's like, so have you eaten today? Did 0:24:54.160 --> 0:24:58.240 you not get? Like I'm as a professor, I try 0:24:58.240 --> 0:25:02.080 to emulate this with like how I interact and set 0:25:02.119 --> 0:25:05.159 boundaries with my students. I'm like, you know, I'm not 0:25:05.200 --> 0:25:10.160 going to respond to things during these hours, Like you will. 0:25:10.200 --> 0:25:13.040 You you can figure it out, Like if it's a crisis, 0:25:13.119 --> 0:25:15.159 you will. You will find a way to get in 0:25:15.200 --> 0:25:18.360 touch with me. But like, I'm not going to respond 0:25:18.400 --> 0:25:21.840 to you right away because like we have boundaries here. 0:25:22.160 --> 0:25:24.640 This is not urgent, Like this is not like for death. 0:25:24.680 --> 0:25:26.800 This is a fucking college class. This is one oh 0:25:26.880 --> 0:25:30.120 one level. Like let's be realistic and then like I'm 0:25:30.160 --> 0:25:32.359 gonna have you have a big deadline before break so 0:25:32.359 --> 0:25:35.720 that you actually have a break, Like yeah, because I 0:25:35.800 --> 0:25:38.520 want to create as much space as possible, and so 0:25:38.560 --> 0:25:40.359 I try to lead with that by like I have 0:25:40.440 --> 0:25:44.440 to set my own boundaries for myself so that they 0:25:44.520 --> 0:25:49.320 know how to like interact with that. It's really hard that, like, 0:25:50.119 --> 0:25:52.280 you know, I it's easier to just kind of be 0:25:53.200 --> 0:25:55.800 on all the time and be constantly thinking about it 0:25:55.920 --> 0:25:59.960