Speaker 1: Welcome to Worst Year Ever, a production of I Heart
Speaker 1: Radio Everything. So don't don't all right, we'll just started,
Speaker 1: I guess yeah, have we started at the same time.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we did it. Welcome We're here now, Okay, Hello,
Speaker 1: it's magic. It's magic how that happens. One minute we
Speaker 1: aren't here and then the next minute we are seamlessly
Speaker 1: professionally all Hi guys, Welcome back to the Worst Year Ever.
Speaker 1: I had to think about it for a second. I
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, I heard that. Still is um no
Speaker 1: fun puns you include or adjust on the fly. Here,
Speaker 1: I'm Katie Soul. Uh. It's Cody Johnston Johnston and today
Speaker 1: you introduce yourself. Okay, I'm I'm eve At Injured. Nice
Speaker 1: to be here with y'all again. We're happy to have
Speaker 1: you back. Uh. Robert is not here with us this week. Um,
Speaker 1: and I get to make all the jokes about him now. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And so we Sophie frantically reached out to eve uh
Speaker 1: and they agreed to join us, which we were thrilled about. Well,
Speaker 1: it wasn't exactly, I just it wasn't frantic, calmly and responsibly,
Speaker 1: calmly and delightedly because it took him. She was like,
Speaker 1: how about Eve, And we were like, yeah, absolutely, Well,
Speaker 1: Eve wrote this article for Bustle. Is that correct? Is
Speaker 1: that the publication pronounced boost? Yeah? Oh, thank you so much,
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Katie. UM and I really thought
Speaker 1: it was something that needed to be talked about even more.
Speaker 1: It was such a beautifully written article that is so
Speaker 1: poignant to the Times right now, and I loved it
Speaker 1: and I'm so glad that Eve has given us their
Speaker 1: time to talk so much. The fact that people are
Speaker 1: resonating with it is really depressing. Um, but really it's
Speaker 1: really nice. Um. Yeah, the response has been really cool
Speaker 1: to see. It's it's yeah, it's absolutely something that we
Speaker 1: all resonate with right now. And I think the way
Speaker 1: you put it so eloquently, I mean in the in
Speaker 1: the piece, you can talk about the piece, but it
Speaker 1: basically it is something that relating these experiences in these
Speaker 1: symptoms of burnout to your own experience with CPTSD and
Speaker 1: seeing those parallels and maybe reframing how we think about
Speaker 1: what it means to be burnt out out. Um and
Speaker 1: more people are are realizing it as they are experiencing
Speaker 1: these symptoms that maybe it's not just burnout. Maybe we are.
Speaker 1: Maybe we are experiencing the thing that we all collectively
Speaker 1: warned about, which was a severe trauma for the past
Speaker 1: few years. You know. Well, the way I kind of
Speaker 1: went into it, and I've been I worked on this
Speaker 1: piece since August last year, so months and months, and
Speaker 1: I had to cut so much out of it, and
Speaker 1: there were so many valuable moments that made it in
Speaker 1: and others that didn't. And I just I probably could
Speaker 1: have written like ten words on it easy. Um. But
Speaker 1: I kind of went into it being like, my theory
Speaker 1: is that burnout doesn't exist. It's just complex PTSD for
Speaker 1: that now because capitalism is eating the rich alife too.
Speaker 1: Now we're talking about it, giving it, we're giving it
Speaker 1: the like you know, a fancy name burnout and um,
Speaker 1: and this is on a new phenomenon and everybody's been
Speaker 1: experiencing this for forever if you're not privileged and that
Speaker 1: white and um, so I, you know, kind of with
Speaker 1: that theory, decided to go see if I was confined anything.
Speaker 1: And oh boy, everybody was too excited to talk to me, yea,
Speaker 1: which is really upsetting. Yeah, for sure. Um, do you
Speaker 1: want to give a brief summary of the article for
Speaker 1: our listeners and everyone should go read this article. It's phenomenal. Pause,
Speaker 1: go read and come back. Don't do that then yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So basically, UM, in the article, I kind of cover
Speaker 1: complex PTSD UM as a phenomenon and comparing it to burnout.
Speaker 1: So going and asking these people who are pretty open
Speaker 1: about their experiences of burnout, especially most of them are
Speaker 1: women of color, talking about, um, you know, what it
Speaker 1: means to be really successful person in their field and
Speaker 1: also experienced burnout and how they define it and what
Speaker 1: you know they would like to see happen and change,
Speaker 1: and then kind of comparing that to my own experience
Speaker 1: of complex PTSD and like watching the symptoms like dovetail
Speaker 1: and UM. And then I took this to um some
Speaker 1: researchers when he's a former family doctor who now specializes
Speaker 1: in preventing physician burnout and helping hospital administrators like revamp
Speaker 1: their systems to do that, and you know, kind of
Speaker 1: asked him like what's your take and he was like yes,
Speaker 1: finally UM. And then UM, this wonderful gentleman named Thanos
Speaker 1: Um who's a yeah, the great, great name. He's a
Speaker 1: researcher in Scotland. Um. You know, he helped develop the
Speaker 1: Definite Definition of complex PTSD for um, the you know,
Speaker 1: equivalent of the d s M five that everybody except
Speaker 1: for the US uses. Uh So, quait real quick, just
Speaker 1: define what d s M guide is for people five? Sorry? Um, yeah,
Speaker 1: d s M is the diagnostic manual and I I'm
Speaker 1: blinking on the exact acronym, but it's a diagnostic manual
Speaker 1: that you is used to diagnose mental health issues. So
Speaker 1: complex PTSD is not in it. Yeah, but there's a
Speaker 1: lot of things that aren't in it that should be
Speaker 1: in it. There's a lot of things that are in
Speaker 1: it that shouldn't be in it. There's a lot of
Speaker 1: things that are mislabeled, and so it's only as good
Speaker 1: as like what you want to use it for. And
Speaker 1: it's basically it's basically a way of justifying treatment to
Speaker 1: insurance companies. It's allowed to crap. But when when he
Speaker 1: when I emailed him about it, he was like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, we've been talking about this. Um, I'd love
Speaker 1: to talk to you. And I was like, oh no,
Speaker 1: here we go again. So yeah, it seems like one
Speaker 1: of the interesting things is like burnout is not a
Speaker 1: medical condition. Burnout is a phenomenon that shows up that
Speaker 1: can have medical side effects, but it's not recognized as
Speaker 1: a medical diagnosable condition. So then what the funk is?
Speaker 1: It was really what I was starting to figure out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I mean it does resonate with everybody right now.
Speaker 1: I just want to circle back to like this point.
Speaker 1: Right now, everybody's feeling this, uh in different degrees or
Speaker 1: has been over the past couple of years, and even
Speaker 1: before that, uh, during this past administration and the world
Speaker 1: getting worse and climate change, and it's not gonna It's
Speaker 1: not going to go away, is I guess? My point? Um?
Speaker 1: And and and it is very a point, very well
Speaker 1: taken that you make in the piece about how it
Speaker 1: is about the rich, white, primarily like people of the
Speaker 1: world waking up to the reality that the vast majority
Speaker 1: of people have been experiencing and the level of anxiety
Speaker 1: and what that actually physically does to your body, you know.
Speaker 1: So he was talking about this earlier, just there's an
Speaker 1: element of it that's not even something you can control.
Speaker 1: It's a physical response. Well, and there's this also this
Speaker 1: thing that's happening, and I wasn't really able to include
Speaker 1: this in the piece, but it was in the back
Speaker 1: of my mind. It's like, we don't have a way
Speaker 1: to turn off work in a way that past generations have.
Speaker 1: So the wealthy have always been a leisure class. And
Speaker 1: now the wealthy are proving that they can work harder
Speaker 1: than anyone else because they have access to things and
Speaker 1: they you know, they can have someone on call, and
Speaker 1: they can have the private jet and they so they
Speaker 1: can be anywhere whenever they want to be. So they're
Speaker 1: just like, it's not a leisure class anymore. And suddenly
Speaker 1: they're experiencing that same kind of like loss of margin,
Speaker 1: loss of space to rest and play as everybody else's.
Speaker 1: And it's not threatening their you know, actual existence in
Speaker 1: the ways that it is everybody else, but um, they're
Speaker 1: experiencing some consequences, and so now we're talking about burnout.
Speaker 1: Yeah right. They like push, like hustle culture and like
Speaker 1: the grind for so long and then they adopted themselves
Speaker 1: and they're like, oh wait, this is actually kind of
Speaker 1: terrible lean in, but oh, maybe we should leave our
Speaker 1: phones outside of our bedroom at night. Yeah, no TVs
Speaker 1: in the space where you sleep. Mm hmmm. For those
Speaker 1: people that can afford a place with more than one bedroom.
Speaker 1: I was going to ask Sophie, what what about the
Speaker 1: piece resonated so much because you were very excited to
Speaker 1: talk about it. Yeah, I mean, I think that you know,
Speaker 1: your connection to the economic system and and how Bernard
Speaker 1: is a form of oppression was very uh, something that
Speaker 1: stuck out to me. I think that, you know, the
Speaker 1: conversation around complex PTSD is not a conversation that happens
Speaker 1: very often. UM, I have PTSD, and complex PTSD has
Speaker 1: never been brought up to me in a professional setting
Speaker 1: and has been brought up to me by you know,
Speaker 1: a loved one being like, hey, I don't, I don't,
Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe this is what that is. And
Speaker 1: I'm like, what are you talking about? And so, I
Speaker 1: what do you mean. I'm I've just worked too much,
Speaker 1: I'm just tired. I'm just over. You know, there's a war,
Speaker 1: the planets on fire, you know, things like that, and yeah,
Speaker 1: So I think those two things really stuck out to me.
Speaker 1: And you know, knowing that you wrote it meant like
Speaker 1: got of course got my attention because you're so brilliant
Speaker 1: and the way you wrote this article. I really loved it,
Speaker 1: even than really loved it. I'm glad that complex PTSD
Speaker 1: is getting some intention it should understood. Yeah, and and
Speaker 1: for me that stood out. I uh, I had not
Speaker 1: considered it before. PTSD has seemed like as much as
Speaker 1: I talk about it and and talk about awaren as
Speaker 1: we all do, I think an awareness of it when
Speaker 1: people say that they're they're struggling with it and um,
Speaker 1: but it hasn't seemed like something that I could be
Speaker 1: experiencing personally and experienced trauma. No, I'm fine, and and
Speaker 1: I have realized that I've had it. But prior to this,
Speaker 1: to this article, um, and at least in certain arenas
Speaker 1: of my life, but I had this really did um
Speaker 1: make me stop and see like, oh, oh, I see
Speaker 1: how this is manifesting in different areas and other and
Speaker 1: other ways that this is also a trauma response. And
Speaker 1: for me personally, at least in my past, when I
Speaker 1: name something, that's the first step towards having relief. Almost. Um.
Speaker 1: So if I'm able to pinpoint what this, this physical
Speaker 1: sensation that I'm experiencing is bigger than me. There's a
Speaker 1: piece in that, and so it's vitally important. I think
Speaker 1: that people are are educated have the tools to to
Speaker 1: understand what's happening in our bodies because most people don't
Speaker 1: know most of us do not have access to our
Speaker 1: emotional life and can articulate what we're experiencing. Sorry, go ahead, no,
Speaker 1: I was just gonna say, this brings me back to
Speaker 1: the d s M, because like what we have is
Speaker 1: like you know, diagnoses, a lot of people treat it
Speaker 1: as a like a like characteristic like I have it
Speaker 1: in eyebrows like that. I also have PTSD. I will
Speaker 1: always have both like that kind of level of like
Speaker 1: fixedness to your your persona and who you are. And um,
Speaker 1: it's the like a diagnosis of mtal health issues just
Speaker 1: a description of a cluster of symptoms like it's a
Speaker 1: it's a it's a like a description of a manifestation
Speaker 1: of something in your body. Um, and it doesn't describe you.
Speaker 1: And so I think that's one of the reasons that
Speaker 1: there's so much I don't know if you saw the
Speaker 1: like piece about like trauma plot that was going around
Speaker 1: lit Twitter a couple of weeks back. I didn't, but
Speaker 1: like there's this like ongoing fight about like at least
Speaker 1: everything Channa now um, And I'm like, yeah, Actually I
Speaker 1: was going, that's not interesting. Like it's both like I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: a rape is not an origin story for like an
Speaker 1: interesting character. Try harder, and also like, yeah, everything is
Speaker 1: probably trauma in ways that you didn't expect, Like your
Speaker 1: body is going to like react to things and you're
Speaker 1: going to carry that with you and everyone has a
Speaker 1: different way of um my personal term for the way
Speaker 1: I described like processing intense emotions is emotional metabolism, Like
Speaker 1: everyone's emotional metabolism has a different rate, Like you're going
Speaker 1: to carry that in your body for longer or less time,
Speaker 1: depending on who you are. So sure, like something might
Speaker 1: be really intense and really like you know lingering that
Speaker 1: for someone else might be minuscule and not not a
Speaker 1: big deal. Might just like you know, they wouldn't even
Speaker 1: think about it twice. Also some of those people, oh
Speaker 1: is everything about trauma? Yes, and you too, sir or
Speaker 1: madam or non binary binary person you know, like it's
Speaker 1: it's we all have it, and there is a freedom
Speaker 1: and acknowledging it because they're carrying that we are ashamed
Speaker 1: of is rooted in trauma, Like the things that you
Speaker 1: struggle with are rooted with this. These these formative experiences
Speaker 1: and if you can acknowledge it, you'll feel better. The
Speaker 1: people who bitch about everything being drama and using the
Speaker 1: word trauma too much, I feel like the same kind
Speaker 1: of people. And I'm not saying they are the same
Speaker 1: kind of people, but like they feel similar to the
Speaker 1: people who are like, well, I got spanked as a
Speaker 1: kid and I turned out fine. You're saying, you're saying
Speaker 1: that clearly you're okay with hitting small people. Know. I
Speaker 1: was gonna say, yeah, like I gotta spanking as a kid,
Speaker 1: and I turned out fine. And so to my kids
Speaker 1: who I spank, they're fine too, Like, okay, so you're
Speaker 1: spanking your kids then, so yeah, that is that the
Speaker 1: healthiest way for you to release your anger or frustration? Right?
Speaker 1: Are they really listening to you? You know? Um? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Can I can I just like check on definitions here,
Speaker 1: like in terms of like PTSD versus c PTSD. Please,
Speaker 1: I don't know that everybody's like, you know, like we're
Speaker 1: talking about not everybody's run into it. So um, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna grow strawberry and a Robert metaphor for this, Like
Speaker 1: you can you can like cook meat in the ground
Speaker 1: over a million hours like he does sometimes um, real slowly,
Speaker 1: real low um, and it will taste great. And you
Speaker 1: can flash cook a steak on a grill real fast
Speaker 1: and it will also taste great. But you know, the
Speaker 1: PTSD is the flash Ryan. Um, It's it's a you know,
Speaker 1: an isolated incident. You can point to it and say
Speaker 1: this is what happened. Um. And like when I got
Speaker 1: my complex PTSD diagnosis, which like is not really a
Speaker 1: thing given DSM stuff, but like is a thing. Um,
Speaker 1: my therapist was like, okay, so like what's your primary trauma?
Speaker 1: And I was like, my what It was like, uh no,
Speaker 1: that's not that's not that's not a question that will
Speaker 1: work here. Um. And that's kind of how it is.
Speaker 1: It's like, it's this is the slow cooker experience, Like
Speaker 1: it's the act of cooking is taking so long that
Speaker 1: you can't delineate it from one to the next. It
Speaker 1: just like it exists to everything. Yeah, it's just it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's the air you breathe. You don't even know that
Speaker 1: you're in it until you leave it. Usually. Well yeah,
Speaker 1: yeah that's really well said. Um. So if you should
Speaker 1: we take a break now, this would be a great
Speaker 1: time to take a break. I think we're gonna take
Speaker 1: a break real quick. Perhaps perhaps would now be a
Speaker 1: good time to take a break. I'm just wondering. Probably,
Speaker 1: probably do we want a break, Katie? Break? I think, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think maybe we can do this for another minute
Speaker 1: and then we take a break. Just go ahead and
Speaker 1: then but we but with spend a minute of asking
Speaker 1: if we think that we should probably talk about it first?
Speaker 1: How do we feel about taking a break? I don't
Speaker 1: know anymore. I'm dead, feel like a little two burnt out.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm just gonna call it. We're gonna take
Speaker 1: a quick break, and then we're gonna be back everything.
Speaker 1: So don't don't, don't. And we're back from that break, right.
Speaker 1: It was good. We feel good to be back from break.
Speaker 1: Did we talk about this yet? Were I just barked
Speaker 1: right ahead? I'm so sorry. I did it again. I
Speaker 1: did it again, just so we're all good. We're all good,
Speaker 1: you say, okay, well, thanks for checking in. We turned
Speaker 1: out fine. Yeah, Sophie, why don't you you had something
Speaker 1: interesting you wanted to just start us off with. We
Speaker 1: talked a little bit bit about the first thing that
Speaker 1: stuck with me from the article, which was you know,
Speaker 1: the complex PTSD aspect of it, but I wanted to
Speaker 1: get into a little bit of you know, how the
Speaker 1: economic system influences this and how uh it can lead
Speaker 1: to oppression and different different, different things like that, and um, yeah,
Speaker 1: so you know, easy topics like that, Yeah, really really
Speaker 1: easy topics like that. M yeah yeah, Well, I mean
Speaker 1: capitalism is designed to like keep you busy, and capitalism
Speaker 1: is designed to constantly be taking from someone, and um,
Speaker 1: you have to like eat your feelings about that in
Speaker 1: order to like keep going. Um. And you know, it's
Speaker 1: that classic MLM. Capitalism is an m L and that's
Speaker 1: how like we got MLMs. I don't know, um, but
Speaker 1: the thing is, like, yeah, the way I think about it,
Speaker 1: in the way I was recognizing these things as people
Speaker 1: were talking about them is I grew up in a
Speaker 1: fundamentalist group and I considered a cult. And like one
Speaker 1: of the things that was really useful to keep people
Speaker 1: from questioning the leadership is to have everyone be constantly
Speaker 1: on edge about like how good they were and like
Speaker 1: whether or not God love them, and like how they
Speaker 1: were measuring up. And so this constantly anxiety, this like
Speaker 1: ambient anxiety about like your performance and your worthiness like
Speaker 1: kept you, you know, distracted, so that you didn't have
Speaker 1: any energy to think about like huh now how did
Speaker 1: I end up here? Like you and urge, Um, why
Speaker 1: is this a good idea? Uh? And I think that
Speaker 1: like having so little margin on life, you know I
Speaker 1: talked about like room to play and rest, Like we
Speaker 1: don't have that in most of our our day to
Speaker 1: day lives, and so we don't have time. Aim, you
Speaker 1: cannot be creative unless you're bored a little bit, So
Speaker 1: you cannot be You cannot be able to like really
Speaker 1: analyze you know, why am I hearing? Do I like this?
Speaker 1: Unless you have that space and so like getting to
Speaker 1: burnout point, having that crisis, like that point of collapse,
Speaker 1: like that's where you finally get time, and that's when
Speaker 1: you finally realize, like what the fund have I been doing?
Speaker 1: Because capitalism is designed to keep us like ambiently anxious
Speaker 1: and caring you also everybody else and like not questioning anything. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you can't recover from that kind of deep fatigue with
Speaker 1: a long weekend where you're also trying to do your
Speaker 1: laundry and like, um, organized the drawers that you've been
Speaker 1: putting you know whatever, it is like you get the
Speaker 1: you get to the weekend, and it's not the same thing.
Speaker 1: This is we're talking about starvation, Like your body needs
Speaker 1: to heal deeply and we don't have time. I recently
Speaker 1: went through a huge breakup and it's dramatic loss of
Speaker 1: a family member all at the same time, and it
Speaker 1: was just ugly. But work was ramping up and for
Speaker 1: the right I felt so grateful for all of the
Speaker 1: good opportunities and that I needed to show up for
Speaker 1: all of them. But I needed to heal too, and
Speaker 1: there wasn't time for both of that, and it made
Speaker 1: my work suffer for a while, you know, and I
Speaker 1: but I at a certain point I recognized what was
Speaker 1: happening and just gave myself permission to cut as many
Speaker 1: corners as I needed for the remainder of the year
Speaker 1: at least. And like a hallmark of trauma, it's like
Speaker 1: you had like that intense mormonal response to get you
Speaker 1: through the bush, and you can't sustain that love yeah operating,
Speaker 1: and so you crash afterward. And so like I'm really
Speaker 1: good en a crisis and then like and then yeah,
Speaker 1: like two weeks later, I'll be like, um, and you
Speaker 1: know that delayed reaction is you know, just a part
Speaker 1: of like who I am because of complex PTSD, and
Speaker 1: I think that like we see this all over the
Speaker 1: place here with like you know, people will go through
Speaker 1: stuff and they'll be like why am I acting like
Speaker 1: this like a month later or a week later, and
Speaker 1: I'm just like, yeah, you just went through this, this, this,
Speaker 1: and this, and they're like uh, And I'm like, you
Speaker 1: haven't rested, you haven't like recovered, you haven't actually processed
Speaker 1: any of that. You culture doesn't. We don't talk about it,
Speaker 1: so we don't make space for it, you know, in
Speaker 1: the same way, and people have that internalized capitalism, that
Speaker 1: idea of identities connected with our productivity, and so they don't.
Speaker 1: We all don't feel like we can take that time
Speaker 1: in space to endure it and continue. Yeah. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: one of the other things in this article that you
Speaker 1: wrote that they discusses, you know, you can wake up,
Speaker 1: you can do your normal routine, but you're still like
Speaker 1: in this trauma response and doing your normal routine can
Speaker 1: be like part of that. At least my and my experience.
Speaker 1: It's like Okay, it's the way like it keeps you
Speaker 1: going as a momentum. Yeah, I can get up, I
Speaker 1: can do X, Y and Z, I can do my job,
Speaker 1: I can call my friends. But like you're you're not
Speaker 1: you're not you're you're not your best self in any way,
Speaker 1: shape or form, but you're able to go through the motions.
Speaker 1: If that makes sense. Um, Yeah, that that was the
Speaker 1: other thing. I was like there, Yeah, I'm the I'm
Speaker 1: the friend who's like, so have you eaten today? Did
Speaker 1: you not get? Like I'm as a professor, I try
Speaker 1: to emulate this with like how I interact and set
Speaker 1: boundaries with my students. I'm like, you know, I'm not
Speaker 1: going to respond to things during these hours, Like you will.
Speaker 1: You you can figure it out, Like if it's a crisis,
Speaker 1: you will. You will find a way to get in
Speaker 1: touch with me. But like, I'm not going to respond
Speaker 1: to you right away because like we have boundaries here.
Speaker 1: This is not urgent, Like this is not like for death.
Speaker 1: This is a fucking college class. This is one oh
Speaker 1: one level. Like let's be realistic and then like I'm
Speaker 1: gonna have you have a big deadline before break so
Speaker 1: that you actually have a break, Like yeah, because I
Speaker 1: want to create as much space as possible, and so
Speaker 1: I try to lead with that by like I have
Speaker 1: to set my own boundaries for myself so that they
Speaker 1: know how to like interact with that. It's really hard that, like,
Speaker 1: you know, I it's easier to just kind of be
Speaker 1: on all the time and be constantly thinking about it
Speaker 1: rather than to like delineate you know, spaces and time
Speaker 1: times that belong to this and only this. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: talk a lot uh in the piece about like just
Speaker 1: the environment that you're you're in, and there's no real
Speaker 1: um like escape or from from that environment. You you know,
Speaker 1: you can't take You can take a weekend from it,
Speaker 1: but then you go right back into the environment. UM.
Speaker 1: And I've I've talked about this a little bit before,
Speaker 1: but I'm curious about sort of your like opinion on
Speaker 1: like working from homes. I think there are a lot
Speaker 1: of benefits from it, um and sort of separating from
Speaker 1: like you, we all kind of go in the same space,
Speaker 1: and like there are reasons that they want you to
Speaker 1: come to the office that aren't like about performance or
Speaker 1: your well being or like the benefit of the company
Speaker 1: or anything like that. It's just like we need you
Speaker 1: here to like watch over you there's a lot of
Speaker 1: aspects there that the end they're pushing to get back
Speaker 1: to get back there. But yeah, but it's I'm I'm
Speaker 1: always thinking about, Like, yeah, but isn't it also bad
Speaker 1: to have your workspace be at your home? Like that
Speaker 1: seems like so unhealthy, but also like humans have always
Speaker 1: done that, like we've like having the workspace be separate
Speaker 1: from the home is not necessarily like right historically like
Speaker 1: consistent phenomenon. So like I don't know, Um, the way
Speaker 1: I do it is is I just have different spaces
Speaker 1: for different things, and that's a privilege. That's a huge,
Speaker 1: huge privilege of where I live, and like that I'm
Speaker 1: able to afford to have a couple of different rooms
Speaker 1: for things, So like not having my workspace in my
Speaker 1: bedroom is priority number one, Like no matter what my
Speaker 1: living situation is, I've always even in like a studio,
Speaker 1: just like not having those together so that psychically I'm
Speaker 1: not in bed thinking about work, Like it's really important
Speaker 1: delineation so that rest is rest and work is work. Um.
Speaker 1: The other is just like I don't know, putting on pants,
Speaker 1: Like I don't have to hard pants, but just like
Speaker 1: putting on pants, like you know, again having that delineation,
Speaker 1: but also getting out of the house, walking around outside,
Speaker 1: even if it's twenty minutes. Like having a dog has
Speaker 1: been great for my my brain because like she forces
Speaker 1: me to meet people, She forces me to go outside
Speaker 1: multiple times a day. You have something that you have
Speaker 1: to care about, Yeah, right, and forces you to care
Speaker 1: about yourself in a way I've always been good about
Speaker 1: like having something else to care about, Like I'm the
Speaker 1: oldest of nine kids, Like I helped raise a bow,
Speaker 1: Like I've always had cats, Like that's not the thing,
Speaker 1: but like the act of having to vid the house,
Speaker 1: that having a dog has been really revolutionary for me
Speaker 1: on that regard. I'll just throw this out there for
Speaker 1: anybody listening, um who lives in a small space or
Speaker 1: perhaps a studio environment where it's really difficult to find
Speaker 1: that it's tough. But with that, there are ways that
Speaker 1: you can can make it feel separate psychically at least,
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, you can paint the wall, you can
Speaker 1: put a divider up, you can you can have a divider.
Speaker 1: You can just make sure you're never eating at your desk. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that go a long way. But yeah, like you're saying
Speaker 1: with like you know, putting on pants, and like we
Speaker 1: all joke like, yeah, we don't have to put a
Speaker 1: pants at work, but even like just putting on something,
Speaker 1: it's like this is like my work. Yeah close, I'm awake.
Speaker 1: Um right, I'm awake. It's like it's like business time.
Speaker 1: Here we go. And then being able to separate that
Speaker 1: and like you were talking about, even with just sort
Speaker 1: of the communication aspects, I feel like a lot of people,
Speaker 1: because they're working from home now, also have this pressure
Speaker 1: of like, well, therefore you're always kind of at work,
Speaker 1: therefore I can always contact you absolutely, which which is
Speaker 1: not like should not be the case. But I think
Speaker 1: that there's like the part of the danger of um
Speaker 1: of this new sort of set up for a lot
Speaker 1: of people, and a lot of employers want to have
Speaker 1: that power over people's time when they absolutely shouldn't. Well,
Speaker 1: and it's a privacy violation to like one of the issues.
Speaker 1: So I was teaching at a community college and super
Speaker 1: deep Southwest Appalachia, Southwest virg and Apple Logic at the
Speaker 1: start of the pandemic, and so we went online in
Speaker 1: that community for zoom, which meant that there would be
Speaker 1: there was like a situation not my class but a
Speaker 1: fellow teacher was teaching a class with multiple black students
Speaker 1: in it and a white student who had a Confederate
Speaker 1: flag in our bedroom, and like, is that her space?
Speaker 1: Her space has now become the classroom. What power do
Speaker 1: you have to control that space in terms of like
Speaker 1: that's the privacy, freedom of speech thing, but it's also
Speaker 1: hate speech bring brought into the classroom because the classroom
Speaker 1: is now here and those delineations, like we haven't had
Speaker 1: to navigate this before, and so like, you know, it
Speaker 1: just translates directly to work too, Like, um, you know,
Speaker 1: if you're a manager, learned how to use the schedule
Speaker 1: email function and send things later, just like we send
Speaker 1: that we're thinking it, the schedule it for tomorrow, because
Speaker 1: that's you know, just setting those boundaries for your off
Speaker 1: and others is really important. Uh that's a really good point. Um,
Speaker 1: the managed thing, I should look into that for because
Speaker 1: it's hard. It's hard. We have to respect you. Also
Speaker 1: reminded me of a Reddit thread where a worker, some
Speaker 1: guy I'm not going to remember this, he had a
Speaker 1: life size cut out of Danny DeVito in the back
Speaker 1: of his zoom background. And when you're unfortunately the Confederate
Speaker 1: flag reminded me of this story. And yes, the ethical
Speaker 1: the questions, but he's like up and coming he was,
Speaker 1: and it became such a problem. He became a fight
Speaker 1: between him and the manager, and the manager was like,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, you're gonna have to remove your Danny DeVito
Speaker 1: cut out, and he was like, no, I'm not, I'm
Speaker 1: I quit. You can't tell me what to do in
Speaker 1: my space. First off, my favorite Baron Ronoke has like
Speaker 1: who is the asshole? I'm sorry? My favorite barn Rono
Speaker 1: vir Jinny has he's like paying up Danny de Vito
Speaker 1: pictures all over, So that reminds me of that fond
Speaker 1: memories there. But it's if you have a good relationship
Speaker 1: with your employees and you're taking care of them and
Speaker 1: you're interacting with them as a human, you can make
Speaker 1: an ask like that and not have it be an
Speaker 1: issue you just like if you haven't established that report, sorry,
Speaker 1: that's your problem, buddy, right right, Just like I guess,
Speaker 1: I guess it. They didn't want him doing meetings with
Speaker 1: clients or something with Dan need to Vito and look,
Speaker 1: you know, okay, I don't know anyways, come on, it's
Speaker 1: like where do we learn on Danny de Vito. He
Speaker 1: is polarizing, that is for sure. We're all just thinking
Speaker 1: of Danny Vita now, Um yeah, no, it's it's like,
Speaker 1: how do you control that space? Who's is it? I
Speaker 1: think these are things that we don't have like a
Speaker 1: lot of systemic precedent for. Yeah, and now they're there's
Speaker 1: such a push to go back to the office. It's
Speaker 1: like we're going to just skip over those conversations. Um,
Speaker 1: that could happen now, you know, you could all just
Speaker 1: you and your noise everybody. Interesting theory, interesting theory. The
Speaker 1: union could negotiate to keep you out of the office.
Speaker 1: That right, right, depends on who our leadership is. I
Speaker 1: guess I live in so it's super hard to you
Speaker 1: and you use here, but not with the power Danny
Speaker 1: DeVito by your side, I can do all things. All right,
Speaker 1: I'm going to make an executive call and we'll take
Speaker 1: into a quick ad break. I'm sorry, Katie, hopefully Danny
Speaker 1: DeVito voicing all of them please always. I mean, that
Speaker 1: would be really smart approach. I made a joke. I
Speaker 1: think that Danny DeVito is a gem. Okay, we'll be
Speaker 1: right back. Everything and during the break, I was like,
Speaker 1: you know, uh, should we just do a national strike
Speaker 1: or we at that point yet? And then he was
Speaker 1: like well, and they're like, all right, let's come back
Speaker 1: on air to go ahead. Okay. I mean so in Minecraft,
Speaker 1: like just burning it all down it seems like one
Speaker 1: of the only options left at this point. It's like
Speaker 1: civilizations lost only so long and like you have like
Speaker 1: in order to survive, you have to adapt, and like
Speaker 1: we're not adapting very well. But like m hm, one
Speaker 1: of the things that I have learned as a cult
Speaker 1: escape who like ended up losing a large community that
Speaker 1: I grown up in and having to start from square
Speaker 1: one with my belief system and my community and like,
Speaker 1: you know, how I interacted with my family, what I
Speaker 1: thought about myself and my place in the world. A
Speaker 1: lot of people are really up for that level of
Speaker 1: like risk and commitment. People don't like standing up for things.
Speaker 1: They don't want to be uncomfortable. Um, and forgive me
Speaker 1: for being super cynical about it, but like on the
Speaker 1: flip side, it's really frustrating to me because I know
Speaker 1: that they can do it, and I know that you
Speaker 1: can be fine because I've done it and I'm fine
Speaker 1: like fine, um, but like but like you can do
Speaker 1: it and you can get through it, and a lot
Speaker 1: of people just can't imagine what that would look like.
Speaker 1: And I think that's that's one of the biggest obstacles
Speaker 1: to something like that. We have. We have a generation
Speaker 1: that hasn't grown up with a strong labor rights movement,
Speaker 1: and we don't like have a positive vision for what
Speaker 1: that future could be. And we really need to get
Speaker 1: creative with that, start dreaming. Yeah, I think I think
Speaker 1: you're correct. I mean, and we are seeing I would hope, um,
Speaker 1: signs of a shift in thinking in I mean, just
Speaker 1: this yer number of strikes and you know, labor movements
Speaker 1: over the past year, uh, you know, since since the pandemic. Um.
Speaker 1: And so I do feel hope sometimes, but it is
Speaker 1: hard to look at me. I mean, I mean, there's
Speaker 1: just so much. This is the through line of if
Speaker 1: we can get get it the funk together to do
Speaker 1: a national strike on student loans, I feel like the
Speaker 1: rest would take care of usself. But like, yeah, like
Speaker 1: we have to start with something that like universal. Yeah, um,
Speaker 1: well yeah, what do you look like you had some
Speaker 1: you know, I agree, it's just we can't get on
Speaker 1: the same page on any thing. I mean, even like
Speaker 1: you know, uh, we shouldn't have our health care tied
Speaker 1: to our job. I know that's what I was going
Speaker 1: to say, But you can't convince everybody to agree with
Speaker 1: you on that. Some reason everybody to care for other
Speaker 1: people like but also yeah, you're you know, asking people
Speaker 1: to like strike to get healthcare not tied to their job. Well,
Speaker 1: if I strike that I don't have the health care
Speaker 1: that I need because I'm on strike. Um, And like
Speaker 1: you're saying, like there's no um, real like vision for
Speaker 1: how how it would work, Like how do you how
Speaker 1: do you do that and survive well in the trouble?
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, but the exhausting thing is like other
Speaker 1: people did this and they didn't have a positive vision
Speaker 1: for how it would look, Like, um, you could do
Speaker 1: this too. I mean, obviously it's nice to have a
Speaker 1: model that like you can point to and be like
Speaker 1: like that, right, like you know, society's reinvent themselves all
Speaker 1: the time without a plan. Yeah. Humans are actually like
Speaker 1: really really really good interestingly enough about like adapting all
Speaker 1: the time all the time. Are resilient, yes they are,
Speaker 1: um and not but not necessarily even like collectively in
Speaker 1: like a like like we as a society are necessarily
Speaker 1: good at adapting and saying like we got to do this,
Speaker 1: and then we do it. But um, you know, when
Speaker 1: our packs are against the wall, we always seem to
Speaker 1: pull through. But but to what you're saying about how
Speaker 1: it is, it's it's hard to get people. The situation
Speaker 1: has to be so extreme for people to be willing
Speaker 1: to risk, um, you know, the outcome or whatever, the
Speaker 1: unknown of going up against I mean like, yeah, go ahead,
Speaker 1: Oh I'm just I know she's controversial. But Amanda Palmer
Speaker 1: had this thing in her phone. Um, yeah, well that
Speaker 1: we'll just let that stand. Um, it's fine, Um, we
Speaker 1: don't need to go there. But like in there's this
Speaker 1: story that she tells about, like she's like with an
Speaker 1: older gentleman and there's a dog in the other room
Speaker 1: and the dog just like lying on a wood floor
Speaker 1: with like a nail sticking out of it, and it
Speaker 1: keeps whimpering because it's lying on this nail and it's uncomfortable,
Speaker 1: and she's like, why isn't it moving And he's like,
Speaker 1: because it doesn't hurt enough yet, And it's like we
Speaker 1: are all that dog is her larger point and it's like, yeah, like, yes,
Speaker 1: he will stay in an abusive relationship because it doesn't
Speaker 1: hurt enough yet. Yes, you will stay in an abusive
Speaker 1: job because it does not hurt enough yet. Um, because
Speaker 1: you like being comfortable and you feel like you can
Speaker 1: like wiggle around just a little bit, so like you
Speaker 1: can make a work, like you can do anything for
Speaker 1: five more minutes, right, yeah. Yeah, and the irony being
Speaker 1: there's so much freedom and peace to be found if
Speaker 1: you take that leap, that scary thing, that scary step.
Speaker 1: And I think this all actually goes back to Eve's article.
Speaker 1: I mean it does. It does definitely economic system and
Speaker 1: oppression and c p t s D. It all circles well,
Speaker 1: and this is like yeah, c PTSD. Like one of
Speaker 1: the things that does is it makes you unable to
Speaker 1: imagine what's going to happen in the future, Like I
Speaker 1: have to really like actively proactively planned things, um, because
Speaker 1: usually I'm like I know what I'm doing tomorrow, I'm
Speaker 1: like after that, like like that's how my brain defaults. UM.
Speaker 1: And this is one of those moments where it's like
Speaker 1: is it a d h D or is it c PTSD.
Speaker 1: Probably both, but like I've heard enough from the complex
Speaker 1: PTS community to think that it's it's largely that where
Speaker 1: it's like if I, you know, don't if I don't
Speaker 1: have to get through it immediately, it doesn't exist and
Speaker 1: you can't prey up plan a revolution that way. Well yeah,
Speaker 1: that's like, uh, come back, Like just the environment that
Speaker 1: we're all in now, there's that uncertainty just in like
Speaker 1: you know, anything on an individual level in all people's lives,
Speaker 1: but also just the world, um, with things like climate change,
Speaker 1: with the current war going on, all these sort of
Speaker 1: things where it's like I don't know, you don't know
Speaker 1: what's going to happen the next day. I think a
Speaker 1: lot of people sort of feel like, well then why
Speaker 1: bother planning anything? Um, why not just live this sort
Speaker 1: of moment to moment, not think about the future because
Speaker 1: we have no idea what will come of the future, right,
Speaker 1: because the assumption is that like you don't have control
Speaker 1: over the future, when actually the fuck you do. Exactly. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just instead of ignoring it and like trying to
Speaker 1: put it out of your mind, like take grab it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think like lighter fluid to that where it was
Speaker 1: like we were all in the state of well, I
Speaker 1: have no idea what's going to happen, so I can't
Speaker 1: plan anything. I can't even plan my next couple of hours,
Speaker 1: all right. Uh. Yeah, that's when I was like, oh, funk,
Speaker 1: this is bad because I was like, everybody is relating
Speaker 1: to time like I do. This is really scary. This
Speaker 1: is not like I'm the weirdo here, Like, let me
Speaker 1: stay the weirdo. You all need to stay normal. We
Speaker 1: have to get through this. Yeah. I felt the same
Speaker 1: exact way. The same way I was like, I was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm used to this, but I don't want anybody else
Speaker 1: to be This is not nobody else should be here.
Speaker 1: This is the this is not this is not the
Speaker 1: side of the table that anybody else should sit at. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I remember um going for a walk socially distance walk
Speaker 1: with my friend uh during that time, and she went, Honestly, Katie,
Speaker 1: I don't know anyone that isn't just absolutely burning their
Speaker 1: life down right now. And I was like, yeah, just
Speaker 1: like it's just like they're like cutting off back, like
Speaker 1: having really extreme reactions, like everybody behaving in very erratic ways. Okay,
Speaker 1: So here's the other thing, is like maybe it wasn't
Speaker 1: so erratic. Maybe this was all the like stuff that
Speaker 1: you put off while you were trying to catch up
Speaker 1: on laundry over the weekend that you like suddenly you
Speaker 1: had to face because you were in the apartment with
Speaker 1: it all day every day, and you're like, I don't
Speaker 1: like living like this. I'm going to there's no from it.
Speaker 1: The number of people who came out as strands during
Speaker 1: the pandemic. Yes, yes, you just having to live with
Speaker 1: yourself and only yourself like reveal so much. Yeah, Um,
Speaker 1: are there any resources or things that people should should
Speaker 1: know about that that we can give listeners as a
Speaker 1: guide after reading an article listening to this discussion. Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm going to give you two different versions of these.
Speaker 1: One is I'm going to give you, um, the recommendation
Speaker 1: for the body keeps the score, which is ubiquitous. I
Speaker 1: was gonna bring it up is Yeah, has been accused
Speaker 1: of predatory behavior in the workplace, So like take that
Speaker 1: with a grade of salt. But like it is a
Speaker 1: fucking good book. Um, there's a memoir out. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: I'm blinking on the name of it. Stephanie Foo is
Speaker 1: the name of the author. Um, and it's a memoir
Speaker 1: about complex PTSD. I'm only halfway through it, but it's
Speaker 1: really fucking good and it just came out UM, and
Speaker 1: then I think it's what my bones know that that
Speaker 1: is what it is. Okay, good, good, thank you. UM.
Speaker 1: And then I'm going to give you a couple of
Speaker 1: semantic tips just like. So, semantic therapy is the only
Speaker 1: thing that I found that's helped me. If you have
Speaker 1: access to e m d R through your UM insurance
Speaker 1: or if you can afford to find an e m
Speaker 1: DR practitioner, it's literally the only thing that I have
Speaker 1: found that has helped it because talk therapy and complex
Speaker 1: CPT therapy is often counterproductive for complex PTSD. UM, So
Speaker 1: semantic therapy is releaseful. And here's a couple of tiny
Speaker 1: semantic hacks that you can do, just like in a
Speaker 1: moment if you're feeling flooded, which is like when you're
Speaker 1: you're on the way to being triggered and you're away
Speaker 1: on the way to like losing control over your reaction
Speaker 1: because it's too much. UM. One is called I mean,
Speaker 1: my therapist just called it tip tap fingers, but like
Speaker 1: I'm sure it has like a more professional name. But
Speaker 1: you just take your thumb and you start on your
Speaker 1: pinkies and you tap your thumb to your pinky than
Speaker 1: to your ring finger, than to your middle finger, than
Speaker 1: to your first finger, and you work your way back
Speaker 1: the same. So don't double tap, but just go. You
Speaker 1: have to do both hands at the same time because
Speaker 1: it crosses the hemispheres of your brain. And wait, wait,
Speaker 1: that is something that I self soothe that way your brain,
Speaker 1: your brain cairal, the can spiral while doing that. This
Speaker 1: is really it is integrating the hemispheres of your brain.
Speaker 1: So you cannot dissociate. You physically cannot dissociate. No, I
Speaker 1: just thought I was a weird person who did doing this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a thing that is tap fingers in notes. Side
Speaker 1: question on this is it is there something uh to music?
Speaker 1: I guess with this um in how like I'm thinking
Speaker 1: of like playing piano or playing a guitar, where like
Speaker 1: your relationship between your hands and your brain, it's basically
Speaker 1: like can you get out of your like spiral and
Speaker 1: back into being present in the moment and like present
Speaker 1: your body. So like whatever it is that does that
Speaker 1: is going to be the thing that's going to like
Speaker 1: cut that spiral cycle. Um, So if it's like singing
Speaker 1: or playing an instrument or dancing or like something where
Speaker 1: you like your your mind body connection gets restored so
Speaker 1: that you're you're in sync with yourself. Um, you're present
Speaker 1: in your body in real time. That that's like the
Speaker 1: fastest way to cut that cycle. So the next thing,
Speaker 1: the other thing that I was gonna share is like
Speaker 1: just it is a semantic breathing exercise. You just put
Speaker 1: your your right hand on your heart, your left hand
Speaker 1: on your abdomen right at the top of your belly,
Speaker 1: and you're just like breathing really slowly. Is that just
Speaker 1: like basic yoga breathing belly breathing very slow in and out,
Speaker 1: you know, count like in for hold, for out for
Speaker 1: But um, the act of crossing the hands in those
Speaker 1: that position again crosses wires in both hemispheres of your
Speaker 1: brain so that it's again you're you're you're restoring that um,
Speaker 1: that somatic rhythm. Love that it is really helpful. Yeah,
Speaker 1: thank you. Wow. The finger thing, I'm like, it's like
Speaker 1: such a good hack. It's such a good hack, Like
Speaker 1: you can do it and like people can't see it.
Speaker 1: You can like have your hands enter at the table
Speaker 1: will be doing it. It's a little tiring, it's a
Speaker 1: little finger workout, it's not disruptive. There there are other
Speaker 1: exercises like that. I mean, the point is to like
Speaker 1: get your mind into play mode and distracted and like present,
Speaker 1: so it's not like that feeling of looseness and oneness
Speaker 1: with your body that you're trying to achieve. And whatever
Speaker 1: gets you there, like go for it absolutely. And also
Speaker 1: heard somebody to talk about like cold water, running your
Speaker 1: cold water over your hands to get you into your
Speaker 1: body again to like connect the sensations and whatnot. And
Speaker 1: one thing I also say is like if you've experienced
Speaker 1: a lot of trauma, your body is not going to
Speaker 1: want to come back. Like you're not gonna want to
Speaker 1: reunite these parts. And its not going to be easy,
Speaker 1: and it's going to take practice and it's gonna take time,
Speaker 1: and it's going to take space. And like, um, you
Speaker 1: know in Minecraft you might want to do mushrooms. Um
Speaker 1: always anyway, I'm not in so we're gonna do it
Speaker 1: in Minecraft here, but you know, um, but like there
Speaker 1: are other ways to get there, but just it's it
Speaker 1: requires just kind of allowing your body to take its
Speaker 1: own time. Yeah, this has been really good, really fascinating. Eve.
Speaker 1: Is there anything I'm gonna link this article in the
Speaker 1: episode description? But is there anything you'd like to plug
Speaker 1: at the end here? Yeah? I have a podcast um
Speaker 1: coasted with Karan dark Water. It's called Kitchen Table Cold.
Speaker 1: We talk about all things fundamentalist, Christian and current politics. Uh.
Speaker 1: Super fun that it's still relevant. I would love to
Speaker 1: be obese, but we're not yet. Um and I don't
Speaker 1: know you. You can find me on Twitter. I hang
Speaker 1: out there sometimes. Unfortunately. What's your Twitter handle? It's e
Speaker 1: Vettinger with an underscore between awesome. Um. Yeah, follow them,
Speaker 1: check them out all the shows. Thank you again so much,
Speaker 1: thank you for having me anytime. You're You're welcome back
Speaker 1: any time. Truly a delight, all right by everyone? Follow
Speaker 1: us at worst your pod at COSNBIA. Have a wonderful day.
Speaker 1: We haven't plugged that so long. I know I'm plugging it.
Speaker 1: Every dull Everything I tried. Worst Year Ever is a
Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my
Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.