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Speaker 1: Hi everybody, and welcome back to Katie's Crib. So this

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Speaker 1: is a big one. November is National Adoption Awareness Month.

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Speaker 1: Did you guys know this? We're doing a deep dive

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Speaker 1: on this a very important subject. What's the adoption process? Like,

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Speaker 1: what's it like to be an adoptive parent? What are

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Speaker 1: some of the challenges over the next two episodes. That's right,

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Speaker 1: this is a two episode special of Katie's Crib. We're

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Speaker 1: going to get into all of that and so much

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Speaker 1: more in this episode. I'm talking to my dear, dear

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Speaker 1: friend and birthday twin, Dan Buka Tinsky. Do you guys

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Speaker 1: remember him? He played James Novak on just this scene

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Speaker 1: of this little show called Scandal, and in addition to

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Speaker 1: being an actor, Dan is a producer, a writer, and

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Speaker 1: an author of the book called Does This Baby Make

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Speaker 1: Me Look Straight? After Dan, I talked to the adoption

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Speaker 1: attorney David Boum. David has been practicing adoption law for

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Speaker 1: over thirty five years and is an adoptive parent himself.

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Speaker 1: He breaks down everything we need to know about the

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Speaker 1: adoption process. So let's get started. Sitting with me on

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Speaker 1: my couch right now is literally one of my favorite

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Speaker 1: fucking people on the planet. By far. We are birthday twins.

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Speaker 1: We are birthday twins. We met at Scandal, and it

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Speaker 1: was like we had known each other since the beginning

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Speaker 1: of time. Ladies and Gentlemen, the one, the only Dan

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Speaker 1: Buk and we've never ever, ever acted together on the

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Speaker 1: screen in all those years. We never got one scene,

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Speaker 1: not one scene when we're in together, when you came

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Speaker 1: back in a flashback, even in an alternative reality. That's

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Speaker 1: because Quinn just didn't Existlin didn't exist in the in

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Speaker 1: the world that I was in the bedroom the entire time,

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Speaker 1: naked with Jeff Perry for the most part, like maybe

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Speaker 1: up your but I had a couple of true I

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Speaker 1: don't even get me started on that, but yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: for the most part. Now, I worked with Tony and

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Speaker 1: Bellamine and Josh and Kara. You had never Darby folly

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Speaker 1: shot me. So I've worked with everybody but you, Darby

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Speaker 1: and Garmo actually and nobody on the Nobody. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: your work on Scandal is literally like the you and

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Speaker 1: Jeff Perry scene is literally like probably one of my

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Speaker 1: top three Scandal scenes of all time. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: saying that You're acting is incredible and referring to my

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Speaker 1: body that too. That took guys, it is I did

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Speaker 1: not know this actually, and I we are informing you

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Speaker 1: now if if you do know, wonderful. But it is November,

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Speaker 1: and November is adoption Awareness month. Um. And Dan Bugatinski

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Speaker 1: is a father of two adopted children. Correct and also

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Speaker 1: wrote a genius book about the experience, Does Just Baby

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Speaker 1: Make Me Look Straight? Which is a freaking amazing title, so, um,

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Speaker 1: I don't know? Also available on audiobook. Yes, it's hilarious.

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Speaker 1: Do you do the audio? Actually need to download that?

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Speaker 1: How do you and Don, your incredible husband, who I'm

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Speaker 1: also such a fan of, How did you guys come

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Speaker 1: to the decision to adopt kids? Well, you know, we

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Speaker 1: we decided to become parents first, and when we did,

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Speaker 1: obviously for two guys that you have so few options,

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Speaker 1: it's either surrogacy or adoption. UM. And you know, Don

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Speaker 1: had a really strong feeling about not wanting to not

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Speaker 1: wanting to go through this surrogacy for a bunch of

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Speaker 1: different reasons. I didn't have as strong a feeling about

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Speaker 1: wanting that or not wanting that, um, But he he

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Speaker 1: had this feeling about not wanting there to be some

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Speaker 1: kind of even if it, as it turns out, you know,

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Speaker 1: these things really fade away. But the feeling at the

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Speaker 1: time had to do with one person being biologically tied

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Speaker 1: to that child and one of them not, and how

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Speaker 1: that would be different. And now, of course both of

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Speaker 1: us have no DNA in common with our children and

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Speaker 1: cannot imagine loving them more than we do without smothering

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Speaker 1: them to death. The only type of thing you think, like,

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Speaker 1: how is this going to work? And will I feel uncomfortable?

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Speaker 1: And you're the sm and I'm not the shot, And

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Speaker 1: I think it had exactly I think it was this

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Speaker 1: fantasy of like when I look in the eyes of

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Speaker 1: my children and I see you in there, where will

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Speaker 1: I be? Will I disappear? So there's and that's a

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Speaker 1: very completely normal and completely understandable feeling. There was this

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Speaker 1: other aspect of it, which was we were unbelievably aware

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Speaker 1: he has a niece and a nephew who are adopted,

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Speaker 1: and there was a huge awareness of the number of

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Speaker 1: children currently and babies currently born every day and who

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Speaker 1: are currently in the foster system, And it was a

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Speaker 1: desire to try to make a home for what is

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Speaker 1: already what's already on our planet as opposed to creating

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Speaker 1: new life given the state of the planet that we're in. Um,

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Speaker 1: so you said you already knew adoptive So Don's sibling

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Speaker 1: was also an adoptive parents that was probably and well

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Speaker 1: as like an inspiration or what was certainly in that

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Speaker 1: in the knowledge of that it was it was around us.

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Speaker 1: Did you use a public or private agency? Independent opener

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Speaker 1: clothes like, tell me the specifics of your adoption. And

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of different ways of doing it.

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Speaker 1: And the bottom line is adoption is a wonderful thing,

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Speaker 1: but you have to do a version of it that

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Speaker 1: works for your family. You cannot judge yourself based I think,

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Speaker 1: based on the choices that you want to make. You

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Speaker 1: have to do make choices that will work for you

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Speaker 1: as a as a family. And um we worked with

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Speaker 1: a private lawyer UM in Los Angeles who we had

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Speaker 1: been referred to by many people who had used him.

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Speaker 1: And we used a public, you know, nonprofit social services

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Speaker 1: agency called called Vista del mar Are, which I'm a

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Speaker 1: huge I'm on the board of now, but I wasn't

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Speaker 1: at the time. And in conjunction, the two things, in

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Speaker 1: conjunction with each other was like a perfect mix because

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Speaker 1: the resources we got from the Family Services agency, which

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Speaker 1: was a social worker to talk to us, a parenting

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Speaker 1: class that we joined, which is a hilarious story, and um,

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Speaker 1: it was so funny because all right, well, and that

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Speaker 1: alongside with someone who you're paying to basically do the

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Speaker 1: outreach to try to match you with a birth mom,

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Speaker 1: those two things in concert with each other. And at

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Speaker 1: California birth which is a state that allows two men

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Speaker 1: to adopt jointly at the same time, because in other

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Speaker 1: states one parent has to adopt and then a year

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Speaker 1: later the other one can legally be put on. But

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Speaker 1: we for many reasons, we wanted the adoption and we

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Speaker 1: wanted the birth to happen in Los Angeles, and this

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Speaker 1: was a lawyer that was going to facilitate that. But

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Speaker 1: this is Delmar was an amazing organization that allowed not

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Speaker 1: only social services and a social worker to talk to us,

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Speaker 1: but gave that birth mom a resource that she normally

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Speaker 1: would never have. And I can't talk more highly about

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Speaker 1: the experience of adopting when you're doing open adoption where

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Speaker 1: you're going to meet a birth mom before the baby

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Speaker 1: is born, right, So just explain quickly, like open adoption

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Speaker 1: is like you're involved with the you know the mom,

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Speaker 1: you're chosen, and then afterwards you can even stay open

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Speaker 1: as far as communication, it's completely It is a decision

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Speaker 1: you all make together as as a team, and open

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Speaker 1: adoption is one. And it's called open because you know

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Speaker 1: who the birth mother is, she knows who you are.

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Speaker 1: You have an open line of communication, and the decision

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Speaker 1: to place that child with you is as decision made

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Speaker 1: by her, whereas many people have this idea of adoption

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Speaker 1: of walking into an orphanage and pointing to the baby

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Speaker 1: that you want and being and carrying it away, which

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Speaker 1: is a very it's not how it happened, And so

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Speaker 1: a closed adoption would be the files are closed. The

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Speaker 1: files are closed. You're like, you're told your baby is born,

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Speaker 1: and it's all through like legal or birth mother does

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Speaker 1: not really want any more ties for emotional reasons. She's like,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to place this child. I don't want them

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Speaker 1: to know I want I don't want them to contact me.

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Speaker 1: This is a decision I want to make. I know

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Speaker 1: they're going to be in better hands, but I don't

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Speaker 1: want to be contacted. And that's just a personal emotional decision.

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Speaker 1: And so a closed adoption is one where you are

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Speaker 1: given access to a new baby and that information is sealed.

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Speaker 1: So take me through the process of your adoption, Like, um,

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Speaker 1: how long was it? What was the process? Like you,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you going to fill out the most paperwork ever,

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Speaker 1: like we had to fill out. I mean, here's the

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Speaker 1: most ironic thing, which is when you're not when you

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Speaker 1: have a child biologically, you don't need to be fingerprinted,

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Speaker 1: you don't need a background check, No one does a

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Speaker 1: home study. You could literally be living in a nest

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Speaker 1: with a giant ostrich and no access to child proofing

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Speaker 1: at all anywhere, and no outlets to even put childproofing

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Speaker 1: on in your giant nest, and you're allowed to do

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Speaker 1: so because you you are literally three visits from social workers,

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Speaker 1: absolute checking to make sure and then background checks, fingerprintings

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Speaker 1: and they know yes, but that's they don't really base

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Speaker 1: adoption on that as much as well your ability to

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Speaker 1: care for the child for sure, but they they really

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Speaker 1: screen you, you you really and you start to think about

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Speaker 1: it and you think, well, I think every parent and

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Speaker 1: is it like boy or girl or no? But but

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Speaker 1: you do make decisions. You make decisions where you're like,

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Speaker 1: all right, we're both white men. It's gonna be enough.

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Speaker 1: This is the way we thought, it will be a

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Speaker 1: challenge enough for this child to grow up without a

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Speaker 1: mom and with two dads. That on top of that,

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Speaker 1: for them to not look like either one of us

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Speaker 1: and to feel like an ow side or even in

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Speaker 1: how they look or feel or what the culture that

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Speaker 1: they grew up in or whatever their ethnic ties are

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Speaker 1: wasn't something that we were comfortable with, and we felt

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Speaker 1: like to stack the deck in their favor. We would

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Speaker 1: make the only obstacle for them is to live with

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Speaker 1: the idea that they are coming from the same set up,

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Speaker 1: same sex couple. Now I have family from Argentina and

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Speaker 1: I speak Spanish, and so I was really open to,

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Speaker 1: you know, raising a Latin American kid. We tried everything

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Speaker 1: to be able to adopt a Latin American kid, and

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Speaker 1: the it was it's very closed for religious reason reasons.

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Speaker 1: The gay community is not open. It's very rare for

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Speaker 1: an Latin American so far birth mother to choose. To guys,

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Speaker 1: what's the most common is sort of what happened to us,

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Speaker 1: which is a single mom to that process. What happened. Yeah. Basically,

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Speaker 1: you know when you talk to a lawyer, what most

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Speaker 1: of the resources that you give to a lawyer in

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Speaker 1: addition to his fee, is he spends money for out

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Speaker 1: to allow people in this country to know if they

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Speaker 1: are pregnant and do not want to carry the baby,

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Speaker 1: but they don't want to choose termination, that there's another way.

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Speaker 1: And so he you know, advertises in yellow pages and

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Speaker 1: online they make no this is an attorney that makes

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Speaker 1: it very very easy for someone to try to be

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Speaker 1: able to make that choice. And what he does is

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Speaker 1: he takes all the people on his list, all the

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Speaker 1: prospective parents, straight, gay, single marriage, all the types, and

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Speaker 1: he will give each birth mother three choices. And what

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Speaker 1: we have to present is a birth mother letter. Just

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Speaker 1: one letter is which is it's a brochure, so a

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Speaker 1: whole packet to the life that just so you know,

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Speaker 1: this was fifteen years ago. So know that now most

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Speaker 1: of the stuff is digital, although there are there are

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Speaker 1: people who still to this day feel like you you know,

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Speaker 1: you make no better impression than if then real photographs.

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Speaker 1: That to just some you know, digital is so easy

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Speaker 1: and so quick, and so that in a way, anything

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Speaker 1: to give yourself anything to give yourself up to FedEx

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Speaker 1: them and envelope with a letter that makes reference to

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Speaker 1: what your phone call with them was about. Believe me,

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Speaker 1: you get you get trained in all of this. You

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Speaker 1: get told this whole process taking guys from like the

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Speaker 1: conversations to having adopting a child to win she I

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Speaker 1: mean when she was we had one false alarm, which

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Speaker 1: is all detailed in my book. Not to make people

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Speaker 1: go out and get it, but there's a very detailed

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Speaker 1: story about the first birth mother we were involved with

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Speaker 1: and what and how that went down a path that

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Speaker 1: didn't feel comfortable for us, so we ended it. And

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Speaker 1: then on our birthday September, the year before my daughter

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Speaker 1: was born, so two thousand four, we got a phone

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Speaker 1: call from a birth mom and it was set up

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Speaker 1: by the lawyer. He's like, she's going to call you

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Speaker 1: at this time, and she did, and we were both

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Speaker 1: on different extensions and we had a long conversation. And

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Speaker 1: then from that September, by March, she was already three

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Speaker 1: months pregnant. By by March, we were in the delivery

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Speaker 1: room with her. So she picked us pretty quickly, and

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Speaker 1: she told us that she chose us because she was

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Speaker 1: a fan of the show Queer Eye for the Straight Guy.

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Speaker 1: So to this day, every time I run into David Collins,

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Speaker 1: who created that show, I'm like, he goes, I know,

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Speaker 1: I know you have me to thank for your family,

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Speaker 1: because I say to him every time, but I always

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Speaker 1: get teary when I see him. Wow. What was in

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Speaker 1: your brochure? We have? Ours was? Um, let's see, it

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Speaker 1: was like six pages, and we showed lots of photographs

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Speaker 1: us with our dogs, us traveling, us at home. We

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Speaker 1: described what each of us liked to do. We exaggerated.

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Speaker 1: Don may have lied about how much she exercises or

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Speaker 1: goes outside. Maybe it's just the time we did. I

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Speaker 1: may have oversold how much tennis I play, um, but

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Speaker 1: for these small things. And neither one of us are

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Speaker 1: very religious, but both of us consider ourselves fairly spiritual people.

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Speaker 1: So we mentioned that because we certainly didn't want to

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Speaker 1: close ourselves off to someone who was looking for a

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Speaker 1: religious family, except that we were clearly not a very

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Speaker 1: religious family. So if that's what you're looking for, wasn't

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Speaker 1: going to be us. So we we tried to give

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Speaker 1: a full picture of who we were as a couple

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Speaker 1: and what kind of home we were hoping to create

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Speaker 1: for a family and um. And the other thing we did,

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Speaker 1: which was something that had been told to us, which

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Speaker 1: is really important, is you take copious notes when you're

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Speaker 1: on the phone with the birth mom, and you ask

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Speaker 1: them as many questions as possible about them and their interests.

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Speaker 1: One of the things you don't want to do is

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Speaker 1: make someone feel like you hold the key to our

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Speaker 1: future as parents. So just tell me what you've been eating,

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Speaker 1: tell me how much you smoke, tell me if you drank,

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Speaker 1: tell me, like if they feel like they're on trial.

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Speaker 1: It's not a great way to start that relationship. And again,

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Speaker 1: and the truth is that baby isn't yours until it's

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Speaker 1: in your arms and a waiver has been signed. So

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Speaker 1: the tense part of it, you can't tell her or

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Speaker 1: judge her. However, the pregnancy, you can have as many

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Speaker 1: thoughts as you want. During the pro says our birth

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Speaker 1: mom smoked a pack a day the whole time, and

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Speaker 1: she kept promising me that she would quit the minute

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Speaker 1: the baby was born, and she didn't seem to understand

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Speaker 1: that I didn't want her to quit for her sake.

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Speaker 1: I want her to quit for my baby's sake did

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Speaker 1: an intensive screening process of them. Of the when you're

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Speaker 1: filling out all the paperwork that you are one of

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Speaker 1: these couple that is going to be shouted from the rooftop.

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Speaker 1: As I said before, you have to do a bunch

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Speaker 1: of Uh you have to do screening, visit to your house, uh,

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Speaker 1: fingerprinting and then fingerprints. Oh yeah, I wasn't kidding. A

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Speaker 1: background check. You can't sign up and have a you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean maybe you can get a lawyer to help

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Speaker 1: you find a baby, but you're not. Just makes sense.

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Speaker 1: You don't want something to be like and also just

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Speaker 1: also to spell Another myth is that this this is

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Speaker 1: not baby buying. That's illegal in this entire country. You

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Speaker 1: never pay a fee to a birth mom to give

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Speaker 1: you a baby. You pay her medical expenses and they

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Speaker 1: and what usually happens is you put money in escrow

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Speaker 1: with the attorney and the birth mom has to sit

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Speaker 1: meet her bills to the attorney and they get paid

294
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Speaker 1: out of that scrow account. But they have to be

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Speaker 1: pregnancy related. And why that is is very very smart

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Speaker 1: because if at any point in the future she could

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Speaker 1: prove to a judge that there had been money exchanged

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Speaker 1: just for the exchange of the baby, she could claim

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Speaker 1: that she was coerced, So everything has to be documented.

300
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Speaker 1: And it's it really is this unbelievably touching moment when

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Speaker 1: you're chosen by someone else to be entrusted to become

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Speaker 1: the parent of their of their unborn baby, and it's

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Speaker 1: a decision that they don't really actually sign off on

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Speaker 1: until after the baby has been born. So you're really

305
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Speaker 1: very tense until until that's finished. Because you hear these

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Speaker 1: stories about moms saying not signing, or your stories and

307
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Speaker 1: they don't they change their mind, say I changed my mind.

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Speaker 1: It is one of the listen So how did you

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Speaker 1: prepare to welcome Eliza? Like emotionally psychologically, how did you?

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Speaker 1: I mean it sounds like you were like cautiously optimistic.

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Speaker 1: I will say in the similar ways that any conventional

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Speaker 1: couple that that where the mom is expecting a baby

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Speaker 1: is you know, you know your first you know your

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Speaker 1: first three months, so you don't want to tell anybody

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Speaker 1: because you're like, what if something happens, So you don't

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Speaker 1: tell anybody. Well, in many ways, we we have that

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Speaker 1: for nine months, although we found out a three months,

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Speaker 1: so we had that for six months. There were so

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Speaker 1: many ways where we were like, why are we going

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Speaker 1: to paint an entire room and get ourselves this ready

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Speaker 1: and make the birth mom feel like she really the

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Speaker 1: only reason we value her or care about her is

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Speaker 1: because of this thing she's going to give us. We

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Speaker 1: downplay it because, as I said in my book and

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Speaker 1: I say all the time, this is one of those

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Speaker 1: rare transactions where the happiest day of your life quite

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Speaker 1: possibly could be the saddest day in in a woman's life,

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Speaker 1: and you can't not look at that, you can't not

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Speaker 1: be sensitive to that. It's like this very very strange

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Speaker 1: passing over of caring for this woman, this young she

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Speaker 1: was in our our birth one was nineteen at the time,

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Speaker 1: so we have a very paternal relationship towards her, and

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Speaker 1: you're caring for her and wanting her to emotionally trust

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Speaker 1: you when you take me through when you got the

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Speaker 1: call that like she was in labor. And as I

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Speaker 1: said before, one of the reasons we wanted to have

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Speaker 1: this baby in California is because it's California is a

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Speaker 1: state where the fact that the baby is born in

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Speaker 1: a hospital in l a allowed both of us to

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Speaker 1: be in the delivery room and allowed us both to

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Speaker 1: be on the birth certificate when when and when, which

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Speaker 1: was an amazing thing for us, came out. Yes, as

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Speaker 1: was my friend Mary. It was unbelievable. It was unbelievable,

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Speaker 1: I mean, to be in that room and to have

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Speaker 1: that baby. And I was petrified by the way you

346
00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:50,080
Speaker 1: were going to faith at the site up to a

347
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Speaker 1: day before. It was like, this is don is so

348
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Speaker 1: not He didn't look. He didn't. Did he say to section?

349
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Speaker 1: He didn't. That's and there's a mirror of the ceiling

350
00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,920
Speaker 1: so you cannot look up, so he just kept his

351
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Speaker 1: eyes down. I cut the umbilical quarter. He would have

352
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Speaker 1: passed out and um. And as soon as she was

353
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Speaker 1: I think was it an appointment like she had a

354
00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:17,919
Speaker 1: scheduled Yes, except that with on my first with Eliza,

355
00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:22,200
Speaker 1: what happens is in the last three weeks of the pregnancy,

356
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Speaker 1: the birth mom comes to Los Angeles at least this

357
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Speaker 1: is the way we did it, and she stays in

358
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Speaker 1: l A. We put her up somewhere and she was

359
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Speaker 1: here with her two twins who are a year and

360
00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:33,919
Speaker 1: a half old, and we were very much involved in

361
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Speaker 1: taking care of her and her one and a half

362
00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,919
Speaker 1: year old twins in preparation for her gave birth. So

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Speaker 1: every visit to the O b g y N we

364
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Speaker 1: did together. Um, every cigarette break in between those O

365
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,119
Speaker 1: b g y N segments we were dealt there with her.

366
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Speaker 1: We did together. Nothing like being on the streets of

367
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Speaker 1: Beverly Hills with a nine month pregnant woman chugging up

368
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Speaker 1: just ripping smokes and the looks on the on the

369
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,439
Speaker 1: faces of the people walking by were fascinating, and she

370
00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,639
Speaker 1: loved every minute. Um. But what happened was we were

371
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Speaker 1: going to the grove. I was spending the morning with

372
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Speaker 1: the twins and her, and we went to the grove

373
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Speaker 1: and we had a smoothie and she after the smoothie,

374
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Speaker 1: she absolutely swore to me she was going into labor.

375
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Speaker 1: She was like having unbelievable contractions, or so she thought.

376
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Speaker 1: And so it was like, oh my god, code red

377
00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:24,800
Speaker 1: and I threw her in the car and I was

378
00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:29,520
Speaker 1: like driving to the hospital, and um, it's happening. It's happening.

379
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Speaker 1: And we were looking for someone to watch her twins

380
00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:33,640
Speaker 1: while we were going to the hospital. Like, we were

381
00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,800
Speaker 1: not prepared because the plan was a scheduled sea for

382
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:41,000
Speaker 1: a week later from that, her mother had a ticket

383
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,320
Speaker 1: to come to Los Angeles to meet us, that she

384
00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,240
Speaker 1: would have her mom and also help with her because

385
00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:48,800
Speaker 1: it's emotional, and she would fly and she would stay

386
00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:52,120
Speaker 1: for a week and then fly back to Wisconsin with her,

387
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,280
Speaker 1: and all that was in the planned. We did not

388
00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,199
Speaker 1: plan for one week early. And so there we were

389
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Speaker 1: in the hospital and we called O O G y

390
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:02,720
Speaker 1: N and he was like, we have to wait for

391
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:05,280
Speaker 1: that smoothie to pass through her, so we can't do

392
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:10,000
Speaker 1: this until tonight. But you know, and I know, but

393
00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:15,000
Speaker 1: we out came a laza a week early. Wow, And

394
00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:17,879
Speaker 1: we were not prepared for that. And I was in

395
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,840
Speaker 1: the middle of shooting a pilot and so I had

396
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:22,640
Speaker 1: to take a couple of days off. Like you had said,

397
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,359
Speaker 1: was the nursery, So like you guys weren't really prepared

398
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,199
Speaker 1: at home because they were being cautiously optimistic because and

399
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,520
Speaker 1: when the nursery wasn't painted, there wasn't like cribs. And

400
00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:33,480
Speaker 1: she showed up for the last month. She was like,

401
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,600
Speaker 1: are you guys insane? Do you guys not understand what

402
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:38,679
Speaker 1: you need to do? You have a baby coming, where's

403
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:40,800
Speaker 1: the crib? How come you even painted the baby's room,

404
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,440
Speaker 1: and we realized that it would help her to know

405
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:48,000
Speaker 1: that you have done some preparation, so very quickly with her,

406
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:52,480
Speaker 1: we kind of got that baby's room ready enough, but

407
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:56,639
Speaker 1: we were doing it to protect ourselves from potential, like

408
00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:58,840
Speaker 1: we just didn't want to go too far. And everybody

409
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:02,000
Speaker 1: understands first child she gave up for adoption or was

410
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,159
Speaker 1: their siblings placed for adoption, We don't say gave up

411
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:07,920
Speaker 1: to anymore. Thank you, very true, that's that's something that

412
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:11,840
Speaker 1: not that people. But it's not a very it's negative.

413
00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:17,760
Speaker 1: It's a negative. Everyone says that, but really making it

414
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,520
Speaker 1: make an adoption plan is what people prefer. People say,

415
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:25,720
Speaker 1: but placed made an adoption choice. Those are all the

416
00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:30,080
Speaker 1: PC ways of saying it. But the gave up thing

417
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,160
Speaker 1: put stigma on the birth mom and again I said

418
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,919
Speaker 1: it for years ago, and also the kid, like my

419
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,119
Speaker 1: mom gave me up for adoption. It's just like not

420
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,880
Speaker 1: said anymore. So it's a good thing to know even

421
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,880
Speaker 1: that people are using that terminology. Now, did you ever

422
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,760
Speaker 1: feel at the beginning like, oh shit, what did we do? Yes?

423
00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,399
Speaker 1: I felt that way. That's similar to when I like

424
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,560
Speaker 1: and I was like, what have we done? Don't shock

425
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 1: because I feel like, I mean, this is a no district.

426
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 1: I just feel like you're of more maternal definitely, like

427
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:07,960
Speaker 1: you're more maternal. You're the crier, You're like the you're

428
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 1: very like emotionally available. Your milk comes in at his side.

429
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:15,800
Speaker 1: Coke shows up, but my milk comes in for sure.

430
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:17,959
Speaker 1: In fact, I'm just talking about it. I feel like, like

431
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 1: like a little bit, but no, I'm definitely more maternal.

432
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:25,040
Speaker 1: I was definitely more panicked up until like, I think

433
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:26,840
Speaker 1: we've made a big mistake, like this is not gonna

434
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:28,679
Speaker 1: we can't do this, we absolutely can't do this. And

435
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 1: then the minute of lives was put in my arms.

436
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,520
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, you just It was

437
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 1: fantastic and lucky for me, but sadly for him. Don

438
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 1: was very much in taking care of birth mom mode

439
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 1: for the next forty eight hours after the baby was born,

440
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 1: very aware that he did not want her to feel like, okay,

441
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 1: thanks by when she signs that waiver, are you for

442
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,399
Speaker 1: the release? Like that that makes the whole thing final,

443
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 1: like the moment of the actual signing. The one thing

444
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 1: that we talked to a social worker about with her,

445
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 1: which was really smart, was something that not everyone does,

446
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:10,440
Speaker 1: but it's called an entrustment ceremony, and you have to

447
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 1: you have to just be the kind of person that

448
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 1: you have to ask the birth mom if that's something

449
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:17,200
Speaker 1: that they would like, and it has to be something

450
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 1: that you would And we talked to her about what

451
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 1: would you like to do in an entrustment ceremony, and

452
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 1: she talked about candles, and she talked about handing the

453
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 1: baby too. Oh, Danny, I love you. Sorry, I haven't

454
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 1: put about this. I haven't thought about this in so long.

455
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Okay, in the hospital, we were still

456
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 1: in the hospital, and I think a few other people

457
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 1: were there, and we stood there. Dan is crying. We're

458
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 1: having an emotional moment. My kid is just screaming in

459
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,880
Speaker 1: the other room as you can hear him. And obviously

460
00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 1: duty right now is we're having a very emotional experience here.

461
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 1: I had not thought of that so long, and that

462
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 1: maybe even an entrustment ceremony. And she paid together and

463
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 1: she in her own way, she wanted each of us

464
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 1: to hold a candle and then each of us to

465
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,439
Speaker 1: hold Eliza. And it was a moment where she was saying,

466
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,440
Speaker 1: I want this is my moment to hand the baby

467
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:19,679
Speaker 1: over to you guys, and we did that in the

468
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:24,119
Speaker 1: hospital and then Eliza pooped. We'll never forget it. We

469
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 1: all joke about it. Now, let loose. Um. I don't

470
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 1: remember doing one for Jonah because the circumstances were different. Explain,

471
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:40,640
Speaker 1: this is your second, this is biological brother. Correct. So

472
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,160
Speaker 1: two years later, our birth mom got pregnant again, and

473
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 1: we had already told our adoption lawyer that we wanted

474
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,159
Speaker 1: to maybe have a second and we talked about that

475
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 1: a lot. That both Don and I had siblings, Both

476
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 1: of us had sisters and that were very close to us,

477
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:58,920
Speaker 1: and we felt that whether or not, even though we

478
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 1: felt very complete as a threesome with our baby, we

479
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 1: felt like, for the good of our kid, they will

480
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,680
Speaker 1: really benefit from having a sibling. And oh my god,

481
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 1: is that not true of my two kids, Mike. I

482
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 1: just can't imagine them not, I cannot imagine them without

483
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,199
Speaker 1: each other. Like it's now, it's Unfathomi Jontah have the

484
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:24,679
Speaker 1: same mom and dad, as it turns out. So, so

485
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 1: you got a call from your adoption agent. We called

486
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 1: the lawyers and we're like, we want we want to

487
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:32,920
Speaker 1: be put on the less and he said, just so

488
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 1: you know it's a tough market. It was sort of

489
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 1: like what my talent agent was telling me at the

490
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 1: same time. It's gonna be tough to get a job

491
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 1: right now, is it You mean it's tougher to get

492
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 1: another Wait, if you've adopted one child, does that better

493
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,439
Speaker 1: or lesson your chances of getting another one? You're lower

494
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 1: on the list. A lot of birth moms like to

495
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 1: feel like There's two things that we learned about birth moms.

496
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,640
Speaker 1: One thing to learn birth moms is that many times

497
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 1: gay gay mail couples are second in demand after straight couples.

498
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 1: Many times because a single birth mom likes to feel

499
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: forever like she was the only mother. It is harder

500
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 1: for some, not all, but just number of moms to

501
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 1: want to see another woman. But that's not for all. Still,

502
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,639
Speaker 1: the number one is like a conventional straight couple, but

503
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,159
Speaker 1: second is a gay couple because it's a very common phenomenon.

504
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: It certainly was true with us, so then she But

505
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 1: some dr parents will be like, no, I want my

506
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,119
Speaker 1: kid to feel specially only one and not compete. And

507
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 1: many wants to be the one to give the first

508
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 1: child to a family that hasn't had a baby so too,

509
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 1: so he tells you it's going to take longer. But

510
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 1: around that time, we were on the list and we

511
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 1: were getting zero calls, like not even prospective. How old

512
00:27:55,320 --> 00:28:00,119
Speaker 1: was Eliza at this point too? And we Eliza had

513
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,399
Speaker 1: a heart issue that had to be fixed, so we

514
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 1: had a reparation to a heart surgery and she had

515
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 1: a heart surgery earlier in that year. It was a

516
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,479
Speaker 1: tough two thousand and six seven where it was an

517
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 1: incredibly difficult year. Again, I talked a lot in detail

518
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 1: about that in my God, fine, thank God, she's fine.

519
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,360
Speaker 1: It was tough to go through. My father was terminally

520
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,639
Speaker 1: ill at the same time, and we knew that we

521
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 1: were having another child. Like it was a very intense

522
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 1: time us and that's how we got through it now

523
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 1: that I think about it. But right around that time,

524
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 1: we had heard that our birth mom was pregnant, and

525
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 1: both Done and I looked at each other were like,

526
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 1: it's only a matter of weeks before we get a

527
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 1: call we thought she did, and those like once the entrustment, yes,

528
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 1: we skipped this, let's go back to that. In the

529
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 1: first year, we did another thing, which is the reason

530
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 1: why we worked with an agency like like this site.

531
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 1: More family Services is. One of the things they help

532
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 1: you with is what's called if it's called a something agreement,

533
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 1: I can't remember. Let's let's say it's called a visitation agreement.

534
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 1: It's not really called that. It's it's contact agreement, and

535
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 1: it has to do with what you're agreeing to. It's

536
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 1: not legally binding, but it is an agreement made amongst

537
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 1: the three of you as to what your first choice

538
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 1: would be as to how much contact you're going to

539
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 1: have with that child after the baby is born, and

540
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: before the baby is born, yes, and the birth mom

541
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 1: goes in in private and makes a draft of what

542
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 1: she wants, and then we separately make a draft of

543
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 1: what we want and we see how close they are. Afterwards.

544
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 1: We don't want to do it in front. They never

545
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 1: want them done in front of each other, because you

546
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 1: don't want to impact each other, and you compromise, and

547
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: we came up within an agreement that had to do

548
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 1: with a once a year visit until lies it was three,

549
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 1: and then after that not until that fild was old

550
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 1: enough to ask for another one, so it could have

551
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 1: been until ten. So once a year she we flew

552
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 1: her to Los Angeles, and we spent time together, and

553
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 1: again there wasn't a lot of bonding with there was

554
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: never really it was hard because it was always a

555
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: concern just not that that not that anything would happen.

556
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 1: There was no legal risk, but it just was a

557
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 1: very stressful time. It's emotional and stressful, and it's you're

558
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 1: reminded of all of it and and and it's a

559
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,239
Speaker 1: wonderful thing, and it's also kind of a side thing.

560
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 1: So it was very hard. And we had three of

561
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 1: those visits. Ironically, by the third visit, there was a

562
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 1: second pregnancy happening and we were going to adopt the brother,

563
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 1: so but she was married to someone at the time,

564
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 1: and so that man had to also sign away his

565
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 1: rights as the presumed father. There is something called an

566
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: alleged father, and there's something called the presumed father. They're

567
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 1: presumed father is anyone married to the birth mother. Alleged

568
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 1: father is anyone else who could potentially be the father.

569
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 1: And in a legal adoption, you need to get assigned

570
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 1: release from the presuming father and any alleged fathers. So,

571
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 1: as it turns out, so the presumed father was this

572
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 1: guy was her husband, and he was there with us,

573
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 1: and they made the choice together and it was a

574
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 1: little bit more complicated because it was more people involved.

575
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: We presumed right through the time that they left Los

576
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 1: Angeles that her husband was the father, but deep in

577
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 1: our souls we did not feel because that was not

578
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 1: Eliza's dad, that was it. So did you do like

579
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 1: a praternity test? So when they had left, I DNA

580
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 1: tested the kids and found out that they were full siblings.

581
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 1: WHOA So when you when Jonah was born, you didn't

582
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 1: know that he and Eliza had the same father. It

583
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 1: was a feeling we had, but but it wasn't We

584
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 1: did not. Now take me through how you have discussed

585
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 1: adoption with Eliza and Jonah. I love this, like now

586
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 1: that they're old enough to really they understand. I mean

587
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 1: they're thirteen and ten. And how was it the same

588
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 1: agreement that she came out once a year for the

589
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 1: first three years of Jana's life, we went to we

590
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 1: did two years. Is that way Aliza would be five

591
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 1: and Jonah would be three, So we went we went

592
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 1: two more years in that in that contact agreement and

593
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 1: UM and then after that we didn't we there were

594
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 1: no visits after unless the kids ask for them. Is

595
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 1: when you are going to entertain the idea correct and no.

596
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 1: At ten, Aliza's not thirteen. At ten, Aliza did ask

597
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 1: about when she was ever going to see her birth

598
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 1: mom again. And we were always taught we always always

599
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 1: always told the story. I'm just remembering this now. We always,

600
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 1: even before she could speak, we would tell the story

601
00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 1: of how um of how she came to be you

602
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 1: and don like agree what that was or did you

603
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: come up with it kind of then and there and

604
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 1: it felt right or we told this story and I'm

605
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 1: embarrassed to say now that I can't remember the way

606
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 1: we told it. We told like a little fairy tale

607
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: that there were two guys who you know, there was

608
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 1: to Poppy and Daddy love and we really really love

609
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 1: dan is Daddy and don is Poppy. I know this

610
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 1: because I hang out at your house. That is That's

611
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 1: that's true. Poppy and Daddy and we love each other

612
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 1: very very, very very much. But there's only one thing

613
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: in the world that we didn't have that we wanted

614
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 1: more than anything in the world than that was a

615
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 1: little baby. And then we met someone and wed. We

616
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 1: told the story of how she loved her baby so much.

617
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: But but and we wanted to find the perfect perfect

618
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 1: She knew that this baby was meant for these two guys,

619
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 1: and she chose them. And it really is true. It's

620
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 1: a decision made by three people. It's not one made

621
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 1: by one or by two, you know. And we would

622
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 1: tell the story of how she came to be, and

623
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 1: we told that over and over and over and over

624
00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 1: and over again. And we were very open about the adoption,

625
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 1: but didn't really say it that much. We didn't say

626
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 1: the word adoption for a really long time. And I wrote,

627
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 1: I wrote, I don't remember when it was, but I

628
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 1: wrote a piece about the A word. I think it's

629
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,280
Speaker 1: called the A word. And it's just felt uncomfortable to you.

630
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: Were weird, like a weird to I had. I had

631
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,760
Speaker 1: this weird feeling about not wanting to say the word,

632
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 1: and it was so important to say the word. There

633
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 1: was nothing wrong with that word. It's old baggage that

634
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 1: that those of us. There's old jokes that people used

635
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:28,320
Speaker 1: to like gave up for adoption, Like it does sound

636
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 1: like negative in the way we're like in the old

637
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 1: school way of thinking about adoption, the ways kids used

638
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 1: to teach each other in the schoolyard. Can I have something?

639
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 1: Of course? Um, we'd be like, yeah, tell me he's adopted,

640
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,280
Speaker 1: Like that would be a way of teasing something. Well,

641
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 1: you know that's not the way people teach each other anymore,

642
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,799
Speaker 1: Nor would it fly because how great you're adopted. Like

643
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,439
Speaker 1: we're in a different world now, certainly where my kids are. Um,

644
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 1: so so embracing the word and starting to use it

645
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 1: more in the house. Oh, I remember what happened. We

646
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 1: were walking buy a pet adoption day at a park

647
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 1: and we're like, how that word means something? And we

648
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 1: have to talk about what that word means. Our family

649
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,840
Speaker 1: is going to adopt a bait, a dog or a puppy.

650
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 1: We need to talk about what that word means and

651
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 1: bring something into your family. And how is it different

652
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:18,800
Speaker 1: your adoption with a child and with adoption of a pet.

653
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 1: And we had to start using the word and we

654
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 1: and we did. But it really wasn't until Eliza turned

655
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 1: ten that she asked very casually if she when she

656
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:29,879
Speaker 1: was going to see her birth mom again. And at

657
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 1: that point I said to Donnego, I think we need

658
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 1: to plan a trip to Wisconsin. And we two and

659
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 1: a half years ago, we flew to Wisconsin, and it

660
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,920
Speaker 1: was the first time we even really had the kids

661
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 1: learn from the mouths of their full siblings, because the

662
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 1: existing twins are also full siblings, and they called. We

663
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 1: never used to refer to those two kids, and we

664
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 1: refer to them by name all the time with our kids,

665
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 1: but we never referred to them as a brother or

666
00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 1: sister because to us, your brother is your brother, the

667
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 1: one that lives in the house. We didn't want to

668
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 1: use the same term. So but the minute we arrived

669
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 1: in Wisconsin, there was a bonding of these four kids

670
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 1: that you really can you cannot deny, instantaneous and it

671
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 1: was lovely. And I remember driving through this corn feels

672
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 1: scared like when they were going to see her again?

673
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 1: Did did Eliza or Jonah feel like? Were they excited?

674
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,280
Speaker 1: Were they nervous? I mean to get on a plane

675
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:28,800
Speaker 1: and like, we're gonna meet our birth mom. Was it

676
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 1: like a thing? You know? I don't. They didn't talk

677
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 1: about it. They were excited to to to go visit.

678
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:37,879
Speaker 1: And when they got there, they were all about their

679
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 1: siblings and now they still talk about them more than

680
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,240
Speaker 1: they do about the birth mom. But they were excited

681
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 1: to see her. They were excited to connect again. And

682
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,319
Speaker 1: now we every two years now we just go. We

683
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: we just take a family trip every two years. You go,

684
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:55,279
Speaker 1: we've done twice. We've done it twice, but every other

685
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 1: year now lately. And so we did it last year

686
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 1: and then we would probably go again next year. Um

687
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 1: to do a quick thirty six hour trip to Wisconsin

688
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 1: amazing and see the whole family. Are there any resources

689
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 1: that you recommend for people that are interested? I mean,

690
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 1: besides Does This Baby Make Me Look Straight? Which is

691
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:16,759
Speaker 1: an incredible book by Dan Bukatinsky. Um, it sounds like

692
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:22,240
Speaker 1: this Vista and Angel and looking for other foster, foster,

693
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 1: adopt and adoption. Now, there are a lot of adoption

694
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 1: websites online I do look forward to. I do recommend people,

695
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 1: uh check checking them out, just for even just for

696
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 1: information and in a more emotional mental way. Is there

697
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,280
Speaker 1: any advice you would give to someone who's considering adoption?

698
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 1: Good luck? Well, certainly good luck, but but certainly the

699
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 1: biggest piece of advice I would give anybody. And I

700
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 1: always talk about this and I wrote a lot about

701
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 1: this too. I think people do not choose adoption often

702
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:08,279
Speaker 1: because of this, of this disconnect they feel that it's

703
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,839
Speaker 1: not going to feel like mine. They won't feel like

704
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 1: there is a desire to have your baby genetically yours

705
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:23,919
Speaker 1: because it will feel different. And I absolutely felt that way.

706
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 1: I absolutely felt like that would be the case until

707
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 1: my baby, until my daughter was in my arms, and

708
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 1: I can't quite imagine feeling more tied to my child.

709
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:39,879
Speaker 1: So I do encourage people to certainly talk about that

710
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 1: feeling with anybody. Don't pretend you don't have it, and

711
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,839
Speaker 1: don't be afraid to say anything that is what you're

712
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 1: feeling or fearing, because those are real feelings and you

713
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 1: can't deny them if you do only want to a daughter,

714
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 1: like we were hoping would have a daughter first, and

715
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 1: we were lucky that we had a daughter first, or

716
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 1: we were hoping that you know, whatever your feelings are,

717
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 1: that you're creating a family that's forever. So you have

718
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 1: to be honest with yourself. I was very concerned about,

719
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 1: like what it would feel like, Well, I feel like

720
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 1: she's mine, I feel like smell like me? Well, I

721
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,279
Speaker 1: mean I've actually heard that before. I was like, you

722
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,319
Speaker 1: realize that your kids smell like you because of the

723
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: home that they live exactly, but like it was just

724
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 1: but it's really more code I think for people feeling like, well,

725
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm holding someone else's baby. Absolutely not.

726
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: Is there something you wish you would have known before

727
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:41,359
Speaker 1: you made the decision? Um, oh gosh, there are so

728
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:45,360
Speaker 1: many everything. Yea, yeah, there's a lot about the experience

729
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 1: that you can't quite prepare for. Part of it is

730
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:53,879
Speaker 1: if you're doing an open adoption, is in fact the yes.

731
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:57,280
Speaker 1: I mean, here's the thing is just basically over preparing

732
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 1: for something you cannot prepare for. That's exactly right. Have

733
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 1: you said that before? I don't think that is exactly right.

734
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: You are over preparing for something you cannot possibly prepare for.

735
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 1: Can you prepare in the sense like you read a

736
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:10,799
Speaker 1: lot of parenting, researching, assessing your feelings, you're trying to

737
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 1: talk about it, you're talking, you're reading books, and then

738
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:17,360
Speaker 1: guess what. It never goes the way you think. It's

739
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 1: always different and better and more challenging. Every parent will

740
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 1: have advice for you, and I will tell you this,

741
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 1: and this is absolutely true. Every parent will will claim

742
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 1: that their way is the right way because they're invested

743
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 1: in their way, because it's the way they're raising their kids.

744
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 1: And nobody wants to say to you, I am raising

745
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 1: my kids wrong. So in a way of affirming their

746
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,839
Speaker 1: own choices as parents, it's important to them that you

747
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,360
Speaker 1: do what they do. And what you have to realize

748
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:46,880
Speaker 1: is your way is your way, and you have to

749
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 1: do a way that works for you and read lots

750
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 1: of different books and you pick and choose what works

751
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 1: from this that something might work one day, and then

752
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 1: it doesn't work the episode fucking it's fucking crazy because

753
00:40:57,800 --> 00:40:59,399
Speaker 1: you watch someone else and you're like, that's the kind

754
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 1: of parent I want to be, and then you see

755
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,319
Speaker 1: them actually have a nervous breakdown in front of you,

756
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 1: and you're like, well, that clearly doesn't necessarily work for everybody.

757
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 1: You have to do what works. But the biggest thing

758
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 1: I wish I had done is talk about what kind

759
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:15,399
Speaker 1: of parents each of us want to be with each

760
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 1: other before we became parents. I will never The only

761
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 1: thing I can tell you that I wish I had

762
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 1: done more is talked with my spouse about what our

763
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 1: philosophies are, because we only learned after we had our

764
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 1: kids how absolutely different we are, and a lot of

765
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 1: people could relate to that. And I think that finding

766
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 1: that place of compromise of how you want to approach

767
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 1: the whole thing is a good thing to do before

768
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:40,920
Speaker 1: the babies come out, because I'm still doing it my

769
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 1: kids and the routeen and eleven. Hey, at that time,

770
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 1: there's still in your rout to what at least eighteen

771
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:50,760
Speaker 1: in this day and age, probably longer, but my friends stuff.

772
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 1: But it was very it's very rewarding, and it's the hardest,

773
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 1: most rewarding thing you'll ever do in your life, is

774
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 1: what I'm feeling. And I'm only one fucking year in

775
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: Dan Bukatski. You are you are. You are an incredible daddy.

776
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 1: I have seen you and Don is an incredible poppy.

777
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 1: Well now they're not supposed to realize it right now,

778
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 1: they're just supposed to hate you. You're doing the right thing.

779
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 1: My kids wake up and they're like, you're the reason

780
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 1: my life is miserable. I hear that all the time.

781
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 1: You did it. They're preteens. Um, this is so wonderful.

782
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 1: Thank you for coming on Katie's Crib, and thank you

783
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 1: could be part of our adoption Awareness Month and for

784
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 1: sharing your stories and experiences and I just I have

785
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 1: learned so much actually in like I have, and I

786
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 1: read your book and I just which is hilarious and brilliant, beautiful.

787
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,439
Speaker 1: But I've learned a ton and thank you for thank

788
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:44,799
Speaker 1: you your time, thank you for having me. I love you,

789
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 1: I love you. UM, this is so exciting you guys.

790
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 1: We are here with David Boum, who's from the law

791
00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 1: offices of David H. Boum. Well done. He's had over

792
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 1: thirty five years of experience as an adoption attorney. UM.

793
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about yourself, what

794
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:08,479
Speaker 1: you do and how did you find your way into

795
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 1: adoption law. Well, I've been practicing in the field of

796
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:14,759
Speaker 1: adoption for just shy a forty years. I started in

797
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 1: UH in an office doing all sorts of different law,

798
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 1: real estate law, personal injury law. And the office had

799
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 1: clients who came to the attorney I was working with

800
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 1: and said, can you help us with a step parent adoption?

801
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 1: Can you help us do this adult adoption? And he

802
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 1: didn't want to do them, but he had a young

803
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,320
Speaker 1: associate in me, and I was a go getter and

804
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:40,720
Speaker 1: anxious to do anything, so I took it on in

805
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:45,399
Speaker 1: In nine nine, we adopted our child and I had

806
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:49,479
Speaker 1: been looking at finding a practice that was a little

807
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,799
Speaker 1: more fulfilling because at the end of the day, in

808
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 1: the civil practice which I had been involved in, you

809
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 1: you did your job, you got paid, but there wasn't

810
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 1: a huge amount of personal set as faction in building

811
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,839
Speaker 1: families really seem to fill the bill. So that's what

812
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 1: I've been doing now for all these years, is helping

813
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 1: build families, one step at a time, Blended families by

814
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 1: step parent adoption, LGBT families with second parent adoptions, single

815
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,920
Speaker 1: parent adoptions, adult adoptions. There are people who adults who

816
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 1: adopt other adults, and then independent and agency adoptions, helping

817
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:31,880
Speaker 1: people find newborns to adopt, screening the adopting family and

818
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 1: the birth parents, trying to make sure the match is good,

819
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 1: facilitating that adoption, dealing with the hospitals, the social workers,

820
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:44,719
Speaker 1: the state agencies that are involved in approving an adoption

821
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 1: plan and an adoption placement, and then completing the adoptions

822
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:51,399
Speaker 1: and having the pleasure of going to court and finalizing

823
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 1: those adoptions, which is the big payoff. How many do

824
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:59,400
Speaker 1: you think you've done? Oh my god. In the thousands,

825
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:03,480
Speaker 1: we used to keep books of pictures with families together,

826
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 1: and after about six or seven volumes. Mercifully, the digital

827
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 1: age descended upon us, and so now we're able to

828
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 1: digitize these things. And uh, but it is it's the

829
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 1: children who I deal with always are the same age,

830
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,239
Speaker 1: They're always newborn. And to then get a picture at

831
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:26,919
Speaker 1: the holidays from any number of my clients who send

832
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,240
Speaker 1: a picture of their children, and my god, these children

833
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:33,280
Speaker 1: are sixteen years old, eighteen years old, years old, they're

834
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:37,279
Speaker 1: married themselves, and they have children. It's it's really you

835
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 1: feel at the end of the day as a lawyer

836
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 1: that you actually made a difference. You make me cry.

837
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 1: Usually it's the Usually it's the guest that cries on

838
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 1: Katie's grip. I mean, I cried too, But this one,

839
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 1: this is this is a good morning. The only other

840
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:53,440
Speaker 1: thing I would say about that is that you know,

841
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, I approach every adoption

842
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:00,480
Speaker 1: as though it was my own, because when my wife

843
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 1: and I went through the adoption experience, we definitely discerned

844
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:06,760
Speaker 1: things we liked and things we didn't. And we approach

845
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 1: our clientele with this notion that you come to us

846
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 1: for advice, and I want to give you the best advice,

847
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 1: and I want to guide you along the way. If

848
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 1: clients will take my advice and will follow my instructions,

849
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:25,879
Speaker 1: our success rate is about But there are clients who

850
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:28,279
Speaker 1: just sort of pay the advice lip service and they

851
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 1: want to do it their way, and they may not

852
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:34,279
Speaker 1: have the same quality of results. Sometimes they do. I

853
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 1: don't need to take all the credit for it, but

854
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 1: I have to tell you that when you slog through

855
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 1: this stuff for several months with a potential birth mom

856
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 1: or with the placement to go to court and have

857
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 1: the judge say congratulations, it's a multi kleenex event almost

858
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 1: every single time. And now we're gonna greg it. Okay,

859
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 1: So what are the different means of adoption? Can you explain?

860
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 1: I mean where we've been talking about this before, but

861
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:06,279
Speaker 1: public or private agency and dependent, open, closed, domestic, international.

862
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 1: And you said you deal mostly with newborn now, but

863
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:12,240
Speaker 1: your firm, are there people who deal like you were saying,

864
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 1: with adult or I'm a solo practitioner. Most adoption attorneys

865
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 1: are solo practitioners because people come to hire us because

866
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 1: they believe we have the mojo or the expertise to

867
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:28,680
Speaker 1: do it. But let's talk about the adoptions. It's fairly simple.

868
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 1: I don't deal with international adoption. It's a separate skill set,

869
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:35,680
Speaker 1: and people who want to go and do an international

870
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 1: adoption owe it to themselves to do the research and

871
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:43,720
Speaker 1: find attorneys who do international adoption specifically. It's quite different.

872
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:46,240
Speaker 1: It's sort of the difference between going to a cardiologist

873
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 1: and a dentist. They both may be doctors, but the

874
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:54,360
Speaker 1: expertise and skill sets are completely different. So in my field,

875
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:58,760
Speaker 1: we either have agency adoption where the birth mother relinquishes

876
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:01,320
Speaker 1: the baby to the agency in the agency then places

877
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:04,319
Speaker 1: the child for adoption with the adoptive family, or we

878
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 1: have independent adoption and independent adoption the birth mother actually

879
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:11,839
Speaker 1: places the child directly with the parents and the paperwork

880
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:14,920
Speaker 1: that is signed is a little more direct. Why do

881
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 1: people go to agency adoptions? It isn't that the baby

882
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 1: goes literally to the agency and then the agency takes

883
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 1: it out of a bassinetta hands it to the parents.

884
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:27,440
Speaker 1: Is that the agency will provide home study services and

885
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:32,760
Speaker 1: social services and support services all at one location, whereas

886
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:36,359
Speaker 1: an independent adoption we bring in the social worker and

887
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 1: we bring in the therapist or the corn the package deal.

888
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:46,800
Speaker 1: Do you find that you have huge amounts of both,

889
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:50,919
Speaker 1: or do most people use an agency right now, it's

890
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 1: it's it is really a cost driven. Independent adoption tends

891
00:48:56,080 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 1: to be cheaper than agency adoption because the agencies charge

892
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 1: for services which you may not need. There are some

893
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 1: wonderful agencies out there, and they offer classes in parenting

894
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:11,160
Speaker 1: and and they offer classes and how to talk to

895
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:14,280
Speaker 1: your teenager about being adopted. And most of my clients

896
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 1: went faced with that as a possible road to travel, say,

897
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:19,800
Speaker 1: would you mind terribly if we got the baby first

898
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:25,759
Speaker 1: before we started talking about what we're supposed to I

899
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 1: always say to the clients, make a financial determination. If

900
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:32,840
Speaker 1: the services are essentially the same, look at what is

901
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:36,360
Speaker 1: most fiscally responsible for you, because no one wants to

902
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:39,239
Speaker 1: end up being bankrupt, right and you're about to have

903
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 1: a baby, which is super expensive. So, like you know,

904
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 1: it would be wonderful if some of your dough went

905
00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:46,240
Speaker 1: to the baby once you got him or her. Well,

906
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 1: it has to go to the diapers, that has to

907
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 1: go to formula. There. There are relatively few adoptive parents

908
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 1: who actually breastfeed. There are some because there is this

909
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:58,399
Speaker 1: technique available where you can do that, but it's very rare.

910
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:02,879
Speaker 1: Oh yes, so there are there are means that a

911
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:07,160
Speaker 1: woman can contact her gynecologist and get onto some program

912
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 1: to be able to lactate and then breastfeed to child,

913
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:13,360
Speaker 1: but most end up paying for formula, and formula baby

914
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 1: ain't cheap. No, no, um. Can you hear my baby

915
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:22,279
Speaker 1: right now? It's his naptime, everybody? Albi, Adam is on

916
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 1: My husband, Adam is on Albi duty this morning while

917
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:28,560
Speaker 1: I talk to you, and Albi is obviously not wanting

918
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:31,279
Speaker 1: to go down for his nap. So can you walk

919
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:35,760
Speaker 1: us through, like, walk us through what an adoption process

920
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 1: looks like. I mean, I know that's very big and

921
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:41,240
Speaker 1: and sort of a large topic. That's a manageable question.

922
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:44,440
Speaker 1: People come to you first. Ideally a person is going

923
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:46,840
Speaker 1: to come to an attorney, because at the end of

924
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 1: the day, adoption is a legal process. They'll meet with

925
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 1: the attorney and decide on a game plan. Are we

926
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:53,880
Speaker 1: going to try to do an independent adoption or an

927
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:56,839
Speaker 1: agency adoption? Are and what are we looking for in

928
00:50:56,960 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 1: terms of birth parents, racial shoes, employment issues, age, health, um,

929
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 1: physical attributes, intellectual attributes. So we define what we're looking for,

930
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:12,880
Speaker 1: and most importantly, we have to define budget. What is

931
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:15,880
Speaker 1: it going to likely cost? What are the parameters that

932
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 1: we have to work with in terms of money, because

933
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:21,880
Speaker 1: not every adoptive parent is able to spend endless amounts

934
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:24,600
Speaker 1: of money adopting and some work on a budget. So

935
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:27,200
Speaker 1: you determine the budget, and then the next step is

936
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 1: we make sure that the adoptive parents will be able

937
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:34,920
Speaker 1: to adopt. UH. So, if you have a past criminal record,

938
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:36,839
Speaker 1: no matter how minor it is, we need to know

939
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:39,239
Speaker 1: about it in advance so we can make sure that

940
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:42,399
Speaker 1: we can deal with it appropriately. And you understand what's

941
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:45,640
Speaker 1: involved with that. Once you find a birth mom, then

942
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 1: we start the outreach to look for a birth mom

943
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 1: and advertising Dear birth mother, letters, portfolios that put together

944
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:57,920
Speaker 1: what is that well, advertising, maybe you're not going to

945
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 1: find it here in California because it's for a bid

946
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:03,680
Speaker 1: by law to or a newspaper ads advertising to adopt

947
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:06,360
Speaker 1: a baby. But outside of the state, yes it is,

948
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:09,600
Speaker 1: so it might be an ad in the adoption section,

949
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:12,320
Speaker 1: believe that or not in newspapers out of state, something

950
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:17,560
Speaker 1: along the lines of UH, Southern California couple urns to

951
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:22,440
Speaker 1: adopt newborn expenses paid as permitted, legal and confidential. We

952
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:27,360
Speaker 1: promise your child a future of uh, happiness, love and security.

953
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 1: Call Tanya and Bill toll free any time, or our

954
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:36,680
Speaker 1: attorney Dave at such and such number. Wow so um. So.

955
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:40,880
Speaker 1: After that, make contact with a birth mom. There's paperwork

956
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:44,239
Speaker 1: that's exchanged back and forth. Birth mom is advised by

957
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:48,480
Speaker 1: a social worker and LCSW and counseled as to her

958
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:53,480
Speaker 1: rights and evaluated to make sure license clinical social worker UH.

959
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:56,440
Speaker 1: And then if everyone's an agreement and they meet and

960
00:52:56,480 --> 00:52:58,799
Speaker 1: they like one another and they want to proceed, the

961
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:02,480
Speaker 1: hospitals notified, the doctor is notified. When the baby is

962
00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:05,440
Speaker 1: born UH, and it's ready for discharge from the hospital,

963
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:08,600
Speaker 1: the adoptive parents are there to receive the baby. Then

964
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:12,360
Speaker 1: the legal paperwork has begun in the court and ultimately

965
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:15,839
Speaker 1: the Department of Children and Family Services in California or

966
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:19,279
Speaker 1: a private adoption agency will complete the post birth and

967
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 1: post placement supervision of the case, and they have meetings

968
00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:26,120
Speaker 1: and make sure everything is in order. They present a

969
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 1: final report to the court saying we recommend that the

970
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:32,360
Speaker 1: adoption be approved, and then you have that celebratory final

971
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:35,880
Speaker 1: hearing with the judge where the judge confirms and approves

972
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 1: the report, grants the adoption, changes the child's parents already

973
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 1: have the baby before that happens. Yes does sometimes that

974
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:46,840
Speaker 1: doesn't get finished her. Well, we're much better now in

975
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:49,840
Speaker 1: California than we were. Many states have a very short

976
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 1: change of mind period. California's at thirty days. Some have

977
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:58,400
Speaker 1: it as as little as forty eight hours. But uh,

978
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:01,279
Speaker 1: if you get to that stage most most of the

979
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:06,120
Speaker 1: time they do. We have. Every state in the United

980
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:09,200
Speaker 1: States is quite independent, and each one believes they have

981
00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:12,520
Speaker 1: the best adoption laws and none of the other adoption

982
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:15,200
Speaker 1: laws are any good in any other state. And this

983
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:18,880
Speaker 1: is the key element if if if anybody gets anything

984
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:20,719
Speaker 1: out of the time I'm spending with you, it is

985
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:23,880
Speaker 1: that you must do your homework and start with a

986
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:26,839
Speaker 1: team of people who know the law and know enough

987
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:29,640
Speaker 1: to ask questions when they don't know the law about

988
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:33,000
Speaker 1: another state. Because many of the adoptions that occur involve

989
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:37,000
Speaker 1: a birth parent in one state and adopted parents here

990
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:39,319
Speaker 1: where you are in a different state. And if you

991
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:41,680
Speaker 1: don't know those laws and you start spending money on

992
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:43,799
Speaker 1: that birth mother and the state where the birth mother

993
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:46,279
Speaker 1: is says you may not do that, you could end

994
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:49,720
Speaker 1: up screwing up your own adoption and getting into trouble

995
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:53,160
Speaker 1: with the authorities for it. In California, if you pay

996
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:56,360
Speaker 1: improper expenses to a birth mother as a doctor parents,

997
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 1: it's a felony, but it's only a misdemeanor for the

998
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:03,160
Speaker 1: birth there to take the money. So it's important to

999
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:05,799
Speaker 1: get good quality people. So how do you know how

1000
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:07,600
Speaker 1: do you not mess that up? It really just depends

1001
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:10,120
Speaker 1: on the lawyer you get it does that. They really

1002
00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:13,880
Speaker 1: have to be educated and skilled and know all those

1003
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 1: laws wearing. All you have to know is how to

1004
00:55:16,560 --> 00:55:19,960
Speaker 1: dial a telephone. That's all a lawyer really has to

1005
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:23,640
Speaker 1: know in that regard. Because I go and when a

1006
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:27,040
Speaker 1: person comes into me and they say we we are

1007
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 1: working with them, and we find a birth mother in

1008
00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:31,520
Speaker 1: Rhode Island. I don't know the law in Rhode Island.

1009
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:34,320
Speaker 1: But I call a colleague of mine who I trust

1010
00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:38,080
Speaker 1: from the American Academy of Adoption Attorneys, and I say,

1011
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:41,560
Speaker 1: you're in Rhode Island. I have a adopted parent here

1012
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:44,440
Speaker 1: in California. What do I need to know so that

1013
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:46,880
Speaker 1: we don't run a foul of your laws. Then we

1014
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:48,719
Speaker 1: have the discussion that I'm able to go to the

1015
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:50,480
Speaker 1: client and say if we can work with her in

1016
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:54,680
Speaker 1: Rhode Island. And here's the reason why the success rank

1017
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:58,600
Speaker 1: or the success rate on adoptions in the United States

1018
00:55:58,719 --> 00:56:04,120
Speaker 1: is about end of adoption matches are successfully concluded, but

1019
00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:07,600
Speaker 1: there are those ten percent that are not, and it's

1020
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:11,400
Speaker 1: devastating for people. It is no reassurance to an adoptive

1021
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:14,560
Speaker 1: family to say, well, of the cases go fine, if

1022
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:18,359
Speaker 1: you're in that tent, that that's all. That's all I heard.

1023
00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:24,439
Speaker 1: In my office. We we average nine success But that's

1024
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:29,640
Speaker 1: just because I am very, very conservative about things, and

1025
00:56:29,719 --> 00:56:33,239
Speaker 1: I insist on really good communication with clients. Clients need

1026
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:36,960
Speaker 1: to share with the attorney whenever their conversations with the

1027
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:39,480
Speaker 1: birth parents that they may have outside of the earshot

1028
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:41,760
Speaker 1: of the attorney, they need to share with the attorney

1029
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:45,880
Speaker 1: what is said, because that's where you discern inconsistencies. And

1030
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:48,560
Speaker 1: as soon as you discern an inconsistency in the story,

1031
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:51,319
Speaker 1: are the things the birth mother is telling you, Oh,

1032
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:53,520
Speaker 1: I've never been pregnant, but on her form she says

1033
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:57,359
Speaker 1: she's been pregnant twice since she's had two abortions. If

1034
00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:00,319
Speaker 1: they're lying about the small stuff, the odds are they're

1035
00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:02,480
Speaker 1: going to be lying about the big stuff. And you

1036
00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:05,879
Speaker 1: want to have really good communication with your turns. Wonderful tip.

1037
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:09,239
Speaker 1: Do you find it there's difference? Have you worked with

1038
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:13,640
Speaker 1: single parents or versus married couple, same sex couples? Like,

1039
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:19,600
Speaker 1: what is the are their differences are there? Well, I'll

1040
00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:23,640
Speaker 1: say this, there are some birth parents who only want

1041
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:29,000
Speaker 1: a big Osmond or King sisters family. I mean, they

1042
00:57:29,080 --> 00:57:32,320
Speaker 1: want hundreds and hundreds of family members for their child

1043
00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:35,960
Speaker 1: to go into this big, broad embracing sort of Italian

1044
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:39,919
Speaker 1: thirty people at the table families. There are others who

1045
00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:42,960
Speaker 1: just want their child to be the prince or princess

1046
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:46,320
Speaker 1: in the home. They want the child to be the first,

1047
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:50,680
Speaker 1: the last, and the only child in the home. There

1048
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:53,680
Speaker 1: are some who say it doesn't matter, and there are

1049
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:57,439
Speaker 1: some who bring their prejudices to the picture. I've had

1050
00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:02,480
Speaker 1: single women clients who the birth mothers say, oh, she

1051
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 1: must be a lesbian because she's single. And I have

1052
00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:09,800
Speaker 1: to remind the birth mothers of that old glorious Steinhum

1053
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:11,840
Speaker 1: quote that a woman needs a man like a fish

1054
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:15,840
Speaker 1: needs a bicycle. Uh, you know, and and and and

1055
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:19,240
Speaker 1: say them, don't assume that, because there are plenty of

1056
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:23,000
Speaker 1: women who choose deliberately not to be married and that

1057
00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:26,960
Speaker 1: they wish to raise single parents raised children as single parents,

1058
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 1: So the birth mothers come in with their own prejudices. Similarly,

1059
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:32,880
Speaker 1: adopted parents come in with their own prejudices. I've had

1060
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:37,200
Speaker 1: adopted parents match with birth moms based on cone heat.

1061
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:40,080
Speaker 1: That's the senter the heat at the center of a

1062
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:43,840
Speaker 1: kiln when you're firing pottery. I had a birth mom

1063
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:47,160
Speaker 1: who came in the adoptive family. Sheep was interested in

1064
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:51,439
Speaker 1: were people who were saramusis, and they spent the better

1065
00:58:51,520 --> 00:58:54,560
Speaker 1: part of the hour we spent together in my conference

1066
00:58:54,640 --> 00:58:59,240
Speaker 1: room talking about the variation of cone heat in kilns.

1067
00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:03,160
Speaker 1: I've had birth mothers select adoptive parents because the birth

1068
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:07,480
Speaker 1: mother comes into my office wearing a cool lot outfit

1069
00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:11,680
Speaker 1: and the picture of the adoptive parent has the identical outfit,

1070
00:59:12,200 --> 00:59:17,360
Speaker 1: beer can stock, sandals, astrological signs, like the same spotch

1071
00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:23,200
Speaker 1: It's just it's it's completely like random, random, and like

1072
00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:26,560
Speaker 1: just I don't know if you believe in fate or

1073
00:59:26,600 --> 00:59:30,120
Speaker 1: whatever that is. It's shared, which you would completely say,

1074
00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:33,160
Speaker 1: but yes, it's but shared. It's like that unknowing, like

1075
00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:36,040
Speaker 1: that you can't put a word to it. It just

1076
00:59:36,720 --> 00:59:39,000
Speaker 1: it just happened. It just happened, well, right, And so

1077
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:41,800
Speaker 1: I'm always saying to clients, you must be honest with

1078
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:45,040
Speaker 1: your attorney, but more importantly, you must also be honest

1079
00:59:45,160 --> 00:59:48,840
Speaker 1: with yourself, because if you try to make yourself into

1080
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:52,840
Speaker 1: the perfect attractive adoptive parents, it's a charade that's impossible.

1081
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:56,560
Speaker 1: They take because it could come down to lot, well, yeah,

1082
00:59:57,440 --> 01:00:01,360
Speaker 1: or kill me, kill me. How does the adoption process

1083
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:04,280
Speaker 1: take from start to finish? After the birth of the child,

1084
01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:07,800
Speaker 1: you're looking at six to eight months if everybody is

1085
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:10,320
Speaker 1: doing what they're supposed to be doing in a timely manner,

1086
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:17,520
Speaker 1: if you're taught. And that's what about from start to finish?

1087
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:19,480
Speaker 1: I'm talking like when they come into your office, it's

1088
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:23,440
Speaker 1: usually nine months to two years. It's usually nine months

1089
01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:27,240
Speaker 1: to two years. But but sometimes I had a case

1090
01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:30,680
Speaker 1: fairly early on in my career where the adoptive family

1091
01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:33,080
Speaker 1: came in and met with me on an initial consultation

1092
01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:35,680
Speaker 1: in the morning, and in the afternoon I got a

1093
01:00:35,680 --> 01:00:37,840
Speaker 1: call from the hospital and they said, do you have

1094
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:40,600
Speaker 1: a family, and this is exactly what we're looking for,

1095
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:43,800
Speaker 1: And it was this family And I called them up

1096
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:46,720
Speaker 1: on the phone and the wife answer the phone and

1097
01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:51,320
Speaker 1: I said, Liz, are you interested in adopting a baby boy?

1098
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:55,000
Speaker 1: Here are the statistics. The child was just born and

1099
01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:57,080
Speaker 1: has at such in such hospital here in the San

1100
01:00:57,120 --> 01:01:02,920
Speaker 1: Fernando Valley. And I heard a thud and the floor,

1101
01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:06,200
Speaker 1: and then I hear this man's voice. It was clearly

1102
01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:10,400
Speaker 1: her husband, and he says, who is this. I said,

1103
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:13,320
Speaker 1: it's Dave Bomb calling. He said, what did you say

1104
01:01:13,320 --> 01:01:16,120
Speaker 1: to my wife? I said, I just told her I

1105
01:01:16,240 --> 01:01:19,040
Speaker 1: just heard about an adoption situation. The hospital is waiting

1106
01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:21,200
Speaker 1: to know whether you would like to come get a

1107
01:01:21,280 --> 01:01:24,120
Speaker 1: baby boy. He said, I'll revive for and we'll be

1108
01:01:24,160 --> 01:01:26,760
Speaker 1: down there in thirty minutes. So it can It can

1109
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:30,680
Speaker 1: happen that quickly. You know, you have to be prepared.

1110
01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:33,400
Speaker 1: I have a colleague who says, are you ready for

1111
01:01:33,480 --> 01:01:36,640
Speaker 1: your star moment? He says, you have to be willing

1112
01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:39,920
Speaker 1: to say to me, if you call me tonight, I

1113
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:42,920
Speaker 1: will get to the hospital and be there for the baby.

1114
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:44,720
Speaker 1: If you're not ready, if you still need to go

1115
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:48,320
Speaker 1: through therapy about your infertility or things like that, then

1116
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:50,640
Speaker 1: it's not time to start this process. Wow, that's a

1117
01:01:50,680 --> 01:01:54,919
Speaker 1: great piece of advice. So really, parents should come and

1118
01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:57,960
Speaker 1: be do all the work for working with you or

1119
01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:00,960
Speaker 1: an adoption attorney, if they're like, I'm ready to I

1120
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:03,600
Speaker 1: would like to have a baby, like as soon as possible.

1121
01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:06,880
Speaker 1: Well true, because what happens is when I sit across

1122
01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:09,800
Speaker 1: the desk from clients who come in and meet with me,

1123
01:02:10,120 --> 01:02:13,040
Speaker 1: they just see my two eyes, but I see their

1124
01:02:13,040 --> 01:02:15,840
Speaker 1: four eyes, and I can see and I have seen

1125
01:02:15,920 --> 01:02:20,320
Speaker 1: at times in consultations with clients the wife is waxing

1126
01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:23,880
Speaker 1: poetic about the thrills of parenthood and the husband is

1127
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:28,200
Speaker 1: literally rolling his eyes and and giving all the facial

1128
01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:31,600
Speaker 1: expressions that say I'm not there yet. And at the

1129
01:02:31,680 --> 01:02:34,440
Speaker 1: end of those consultations, I will say to the clients,

1130
01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:36,400
Speaker 1: you know, I don't think I can be of help

1131
01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:38,920
Speaker 1: to you because I think the two of you probably

1132
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:42,440
Speaker 1: need to do some talking with one another because we

1133
01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:45,000
Speaker 1: all have to be on the same page. You know,

1134
01:02:45,120 --> 01:02:48,920
Speaker 1: as a parent that parenting is a tag team event. Yes,

1135
01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:53,000
Speaker 1: and so is adopting. It is also a tag team event.

1136
01:02:53,280 --> 01:02:55,960
Speaker 1: Sometimes when one parent is feeling, oh, is this ever

1137
01:02:56,000 --> 01:02:58,680
Speaker 1: gonna happen, the other is there to say, of course

1138
01:02:58,720 --> 01:03:00,760
Speaker 1: it's going to happen. This is next step we're going

1139
01:03:00,800 --> 01:03:03,320
Speaker 1: to do. And when they're not on the same page

1140
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:06,640
Speaker 1: and one is rowing across the pond and the other

1141
01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:09,080
Speaker 1: is drilling holes in the back of the boat. It's

1142
01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:12,480
Speaker 1: not a good situation. A single adoption in person, who

1143
01:03:12,520 --> 01:03:17,000
Speaker 1: do they go to family? Ideally they will the clients

1144
01:03:17,000 --> 01:03:20,000
Speaker 1: that I have from the LGPT community or the single

1145
01:03:20,040 --> 01:03:23,360
Speaker 1: parents who just want to be single parents usually have

1146
01:03:23,640 --> 01:03:26,760
Speaker 1: their own family. It may not be blood family, yes,

1147
01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:29,640
Speaker 1: but they have their support systems sing them through this

1148
01:03:29,640 --> 01:03:31,920
Speaker 1: whole thing. Do you find that they bring a friend

1149
01:03:32,120 --> 01:03:36,400
Speaker 1: to Rarely it's it's we've come a long way, and

1150
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:40,080
Speaker 1: adoption is much more out there and open than it was.

1151
01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:43,000
Speaker 1: But none of us walk around and introduce our children

1152
01:03:43,080 --> 01:03:45,040
Speaker 1: as oh, this is my adopted son or this is

1153
01:03:45,040 --> 01:03:48,520
Speaker 1: my adopted daughter. These are just my children. And so

1154
01:03:48,960 --> 01:03:50,760
Speaker 1: I had such an old school way. I mean when

1155
01:03:50,760 --> 01:03:52,840
Speaker 1: we were talking to Dan Bugatinsky and I had such

1156
01:03:52,920 --> 01:03:55,480
Speaker 1: I said, oh, given up for adoption, and he said, oh,

1157
01:03:55,520 --> 01:03:57,560
Speaker 1: we don't say given up, we say placed. And I

1158
01:03:57,600 --> 01:04:00,760
Speaker 1: was like, oh, my gosh, like being a child in

1159
01:04:00,760 --> 01:04:04,320
Speaker 1: the eighties like that that's what we said, Oh you're

1160
01:04:04,360 --> 01:04:07,160
Speaker 1: given up for adoption or that child, you know, that's

1161
01:04:07,160 --> 01:04:09,520
Speaker 1: like how you phrase it. And it's not you're a

1162
01:04:09,600 --> 01:04:12,640
Speaker 1: chosen child. That's another one that well, why didn't my

1163
01:04:12,720 --> 01:04:17,120
Speaker 1: mother choose to keep me? It's the lingoes all different,

1164
01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:21,320
Speaker 1: now different. Um, what would you say is advice for

1165
01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:23,600
Speaker 1: a dooctive parents if they're going to hire an attorney, Like,

1166
01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:26,600
Speaker 1: what is there? Is there a list of questions or

1167
01:04:26,680 --> 01:04:29,040
Speaker 1: something or or is it just a gut feeling that

1168
01:04:29,160 --> 01:04:30,720
Speaker 1: this is the person I want to go through? This

1169
01:04:31,160 --> 01:04:35,400
Speaker 1: can be very challenging and long process. Well, my advice

1170
01:04:35,480 --> 01:04:39,000
Speaker 1: would be there are two resources that I think are invaluable.

1171
01:04:39,480 --> 01:04:42,360
Speaker 1: The first is the American Academy of Adoption Attorneys because

1172
01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:46,240
Speaker 1: that's nationwide and they have the preeminent adoption attorneys in

1173
01:04:46,280 --> 01:04:50,200
Speaker 1: the United States. The entry requirements and the legal ethics

1174
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:54,120
Speaker 1: requirements to maintain fellowship in those are in that organization

1175
01:04:54,520 --> 01:04:58,840
Speaker 1: are very, very significant. So you start with a group

1176
01:04:58,880 --> 01:05:01,600
Speaker 1: of people who are already well educated, well informed, and

1177
01:05:01,680 --> 01:05:05,120
Speaker 1: well connected to help you adopt. The second resource here

1178
01:05:05,160 --> 01:05:08,400
Speaker 1: in California is the Academy of California Adoption Lawyers. I

1179
01:05:08,480 --> 01:05:11,520
Speaker 1: served as president of that academy for sixteen years. It

1180
01:05:11,640 --> 01:05:13,720
Speaker 1: must that I was such a great president. It was

1181
01:05:13,800 --> 01:05:15,880
Speaker 1: more than no one else wanted to do. It, but

1182
01:05:16,040 --> 01:05:18,640
Speaker 1: we have in our academy. I think it's now about

1183
01:05:18,720 --> 01:05:21,600
Speaker 1: forty two of the pre eminent adoption and family formation

1184
01:05:21,640 --> 01:05:24,760
Speaker 1: attorneys in the unit in the state of California. We

1185
01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:28,800
Speaker 1: teach other attorneys how to do adoption law. We meet

1186
01:05:28,920 --> 01:05:33,680
Speaker 1: and we have continuing education programs. We are we author articles,

1187
01:05:33,800 --> 01:05:38,280
Speaker 1: we lecture, and we have standards again for admission two

1188
01:05:38,520 --> 01:05:41,320
Speaker 1: D adoptions at a minimum, and you have to have

1189
01:05:41,440 --> 01:05:44,000
Speaker 1: Our ethical standards are higher than the state bar imposes

1190
01:05:44,120 --> 01:05:48,280
Speaker 1: upon lawyers practicing in California, and we have very rigorous

1191
01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:52,000
Speaker 1: continuing education requirements. So you start with that. Then you

1192
01:05:52,160 --> 01:05:54,360
Speaker 1: ask the questions that you want to ask, and and

1193
01:05:54,520 --> 01:05:56,800
Speaker 1: don't be shy about it. If you only want to

1194
01:05:56,880 --> 01:05:59,920
Speaker 1: adopt a Hispanic child, say I only want to adopt

1195
01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:01,680
Speaker 1: his spani child, is that problem? If you want to

1196
01:06:01,720 --> 01:06:05,080
Speaker 1: be gender specific, ask the questions you feel like asking.

1197
01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:06,680
Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, you hit the

1198
01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:09,360
Speaker 1: nail on the head, Kittie. It's you have to trust

1199
01:06:09,440 --> 01:06:12,560
Speaker 1: your gut. If you sit down with the attorney and

1200
01:06:12,960 --> 01:06:16,120
Speaker 1: all the diplomas look magnificent and the brochures look lovely,

1201
01:06:16,480 --> 01:06:20,600
Speaker 1: and you don't feel comfortable, you need to trust your

1202
01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:25,120
Speaker 1: gut with that, because it's it is a partnership vulnerable

1203
01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:27,680
Speaker 1: for a long period of time. And if you're gonna

1204
01:06:27,720 --> 01:06:30,040
Speaker 1: always worry, Oh my goodness, if I call the attorney,

1205
01:06:30,240 --> 01:06:32,480
Speaker 1: he's going to he charges by the hour, and many

1206
01:06:32,560 --> 01:06:34,440
Speaker 1: of us don't we charge on a flat fee basis.

1207
01:06:34,720 --> 01:06:36,240
Speaker 1: He charges by the hour. It's going to cost me

1208
01:06:36,280 --> 01:06:38,320
Speaker 1: money every time I ask a question. Then you're gonna

1209
01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:40,840
Speaker 1: feel I don't maybe I shouldn't ask the question, and

1210
01:06:40,920 --> 01:06:43,480
Speaker 1: you're depriving yourself as something that maybe you really need

1211
01:06:43,560 --> 01:06:46,919
Speaker 1: to have the answer to that. And it's also true

1212
01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:50,320
Speaker 1: with regard to the adopted adoption situation. I had a

1213
01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:55,120
Speaker 1: client who we presented an absolutely magnificent birth mother too,

1214
01:06:55,720 --> 01:07:00,680
Speaker 1: absolutely magnificent, And the client said to me, that's not

1215
01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:03,560
Speaker 1: my baby. And I hung up the phone, and I

1216
01:07:03,600 --> 01:07:06,920
Speaker 1: had thought to myself, you gotta be kidding me. If

1217
01:07:06,960 --> 01:07:12,960
Speaker 1: you went uh and you programmed the perfect birth mother academics,

1218
01:07:13,160 --> 01:07:18,680
Speaker 1: physical health, emotional well being, stability, intellectual curiosity, uh, the

1219
01:07:18,840 --> 01:07:22,000
Speaker 1: quality of her pregnancy, her do date, her lack of expenses,

1220
01:07:22,280 --> 01:07:26,120
Speaker 1: I couldn't imagine anyone would turn the child down. Well,

1221
01:07:26,560 --> 01:07:30,200
Speaker 1: we had no trouble matching that birth mother with another family. Now, ultimately,

1222
01:07:30,600 --> 01:07:34,320
Speaker 1: this client went on to adopt, and they invited my

1223
01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:38,240
Speaker 1: wife and me to a party at their home to

1224
01:07:38,360 --> 01:07:41,080
Speaker 1: celebrate the arrival of the child. And we walked through

1225
01:07:41,120 --> 01:07:43,680
Speaker 1: the door and the wife came out and said to me,

1226
01:07:45,160 --> 01:07:47,400
Speaker 1: it's so good you're here. You're like family to us.

1227
01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:49,440
Speaker 1: I mean, we wouldn't have a family were enough for you.

1228
01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:52,320
Speaker 1: And I turned her and I said, looking back at

1229
01:07:52,360 --> 01:07:56,200
Speaker 1: the situation that you turned down, do you feel any

1230
01:07:56,320 --> 01:07:59,360
Speaker 1: differently now about that than you did then? And she said, no,

1231
01:08:00,360 --> 01:08:03,760
Speaker 1: that was not my child. This child that I have

1232
01:08:03,960 --> 01:08:06,920
Speaker 1: here is that it was the child for me. Wow.

1233
01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:13,520
Speaker 1: I still when I think of adoption. I don't know

1234
01:08:13,600 --> 01:08:16,040
Speaker 1: if it's because of movies or something, but you still

1235
01:08:16,080 --> 01:08:19,880
Speaker 1: think of orphanages. Did it exist anymore? Really? They don't.

1236
01:08:20,040 --> 01:08:23,639
Speaker 1: They don't know. I mean maybe in outside of the US,

1237
01:08:24,080 --> 01:08:29,439
Speaker 1: and they exist in the world of Charles Dickens. They

1238
01:08:29,560 --> 01:08:32,360
Speaker 1: exist outside of the United States and in the musical Hamilton's.

1239
01:08:33,320 --> 01:08:38,639
Speaker 1: But with those with those relatively few exceptions, they don't. Well,

1240
01:08:38,760 --> 01:08:42,400
Speaker 1: if you think about it. Vista del Mar, which one

1241
01:08:42,439 --> 01:08:47,400
Speaker 1: of your guests used, was originally called the Jewish Orphans Home,

1242
01:08:48,840 --> 01:08:51,160
Speaker 1: and when it was first formed back I think it

1243
01:08:51,280 --> 01:08:56,200
Speaker 1: was in the nineties. It took in Jewish orphans, but

1244
01:08:56,680 --> 01:09:01,160
Speaker 1: we don't have that anymore. Even the adoption agencies really

1245
01:09:01,520 --> 01:09:04,400
Speaker 1: are not orphanages like the child is there and you

1246
01:09:04,479 --> 01:09:08,599
Speaker 1: can come get a child. It doesn't work that way. Wow, well,

1247
01:09:08,680 --> 01:09:12,240
Speaker 1: that's that's good. What are the typical costs? This is

1248
01:09:12,240 --> 01:09:14,599
Speaker 1: where I really want to get into, Like, I'm sure

1249
01:09:14,760 --> 01:09:19,160
Speaker 1: they vary. Okay, there's the ala carte version versus the

1250
01:09:19,240 --> 01:09:23,480
Speaker 1: agency version. But what is in your fourty years experience,

1251
01:09:23,840 --> 01:09:26,160
Speaker 1: and obviously money has also changed in the last forty

1252
01:09:26,240 --> 01:09:28,639
Speaker 1: years of what things cost at this day and age,

1253
01:09:28,840 --> 01:09:31,599
Speaker 1: what is the least amount and what is the most amount.

1254
01:09:32,040 --> 01:09:34,840
Speaker 1: I think that what you have to figure realistically is

1255
01:09:34,960 --> 01:09:37,719
Speaker 1: the lowest amount is going to be in the vicinity

1256
01:09:37,800 --> 01:09:41,080
Speaker 1: of about ten thous dollars. Because if you're here in

1257
01:09:41,160 --> 01:09:43,200
Speaker 1: California and you have to do a home study under

1258
01:09:43,240 --> 01:09:48,400
Speaker 1: California law, the state mandates a fee of so right there,

1259
01:09:50,120 --> 01:09:52,280
Speaker 1: and that's for someone to come in and and study

1260
01:09:52,360 --> 01:09:55,560
Speaker 1: your house to make sure that you are right that

1261
01:09:55,720 --> 01:09:58,000
Speaker 1: you They have all these things that they look at

1262
01:09:58,080 --> 01:09:59,240
Speaker 1: to make sure that your home is going to be

1263
01:09:59,320 --> 01:10:02,240
Speaker 1: a safe right for me, but it's it's really it's

1264
01:10:02,280 --> 01:10:05,760
Speaker 1: also and perhaps more importantly, to study you because I've

1265
01:10:05,800 --> 01:10:08,679
Speaker 1: had clients who have adopted who have shared a studio

1266
01:10:08,800 --> 01:10:11,760
Speaker 1: apartment and that's what they've had to raise a child in.

1267
01:10:12,520 --> 01:10:14,799
Speaker 1: You don't have to have a certain level of income

1268
01:10:15,200 --> 01:10:17,280
Speaker 1: to be able to adopt. You just have to have

1269
01:10:17,360 --> 01:10:22,040
Speaker 1: a safe living environment. And for young couples, a studio

1270
01:10:22,200 --> 01:10:27,080
Speaker 1: apartment is just fine. Okay. But to answer your question,

1271
01:10:28,200 --> 01:10:30,640
Speaker 1: in my office right now, we are quoting people a

1272
01:10:30,800 --> 01:10:36,080
Speaker 1: range of eighteen thousand, five hundred dollars to complete for

1273
01:10:36,160 --> 01:10:39,960
Speaker 1: adoption for everything except outreach, because we don't know how

1274
01:10:40,080 --> 01:10:43,559
Speaker 1: much money we're going to be spending running newspaper ads

1275
01:10:43,720 --> 01:10:47,880
Speaker 1: or being on the internet to find adoptable children. When

1276
01:10:47,960 --> 01:10:50,000
Speaker 1: you go over the hill and you go into more

1277
01:10:50,080 --> 01:10:53,680
Speaker 1: expensive areas like Beverly Hills, for example, or you go

1278
01:10:54,160 --> 01:10:57,559
Speaker 1: to the East Coast to places like Philadelphia, the cost

1279
01:10:57,720 --> 01:11:02,120
Speaker 1: of adoption goes way up because the attorneys pay higher

1280
01:11:02,160 --> 01:11:05,880
Speaker 1: amounts for rent and because the market will bear it.

1281
01:11:06,560 --> 01:11:09,880
Speaker 1: So it is not uncommon for people to have adoptions

1282
01:11:09,960 --> 01:11:14,840
Speaker 1: which run ten thousand dollars to fifty fifty five thousand dollars.

1283
01:11:15,520 --> 01:11:19,080
Speaker 1: In California, we have laws that govern what can and

1284
01:11:19,160 --> 01:11:22,200
Speaker 1: cannot be paid for birth mothers. They have to be

1285
01:11:22,320 --> 01:11:25,519
Speaker 1: medical or living related expenses of a birth mother during

1286
01:11:25,560 --> 01:11:29,200
Speaker 1: the period of her confinement or her pregnancy, and so

1287
01:11:29,479 --> 01:11:32,439
Speaker 1: that brings some control over it. But there are other

1288
01:11:32,520 --> 01:11:35,800
Speaker 1: states where you can pay for virtually everything. So when

1289
01:11:35,920 --> 01:11:39,080
Speaker 1: we are talking with potential birth parents on behalf of

1290
01:11:39,120 --> 01:11:41,360
Speaker 1: adoptive parents, one of the things that we're doing is

1291
01:11:41,439 --> 01:11:43,599
Speaker 1: we're asking them to tell us what their financial needs

1292
01:11:43,640 --> 01:11:45,720
Speaker 1: are so we can make sure that you don't go

1293
01:11:46,400 --> 01:11:52,080
Speaker 1: into Chapter eleven proceedings trying to adopt a child. But again,

1294
01:11:52,360 --> 01:11:56,879
Speaker 1: I'm providing you with some resources for places where adopted

1295
01:11:56,960 --> 01:12:00,120
Speaker 1: families can get some financing to assist them for with

1296
01:12:00,320 --> 01:12:07,040
Speaker 1: the domption. It does, and remarkably so in this present

1297
01:12:07,160 --> 01:12:11,200
Speaker 1: environment politically. The one thing that the White House and

1298
01:12:11,360 --> 01:12:15,720
Speaker 1: Congress has not disturbed, thank God for it is the

1299
01:12:15,800 --> 01:12:20,120
Speaker 1: Adoption Tax Credit, which is a national adoption tax credit,

1300
01:12:20,560 --> 01:12:25,120
Speaker 1: and it is over fourteen thousand dollars of acceptable adoption

1301
01:12:25,160 --> 01:12:29,000
Speaker 1: expenses which come off of your tax liability dollar for dollar,

1302
01:12:29,600 --> 01:12:32,160
Speaker 1: and that is a major relief because if you get

1303
01:12:32,200 --> 01:12:35,040
Speaker 1: a birth mother who's due in two or three months,

1304
01:12:35,479 --> 01:12:38,120
Speaker 1: she's living at home, she doesn't have a lot of expenses,

1305
01:12:38,400 --> 01:12:41,600
Speaker 1: she has health insurance through her parents. Your adoption is

1306
01:12:41,640 --> 01:12:44,160
Speaker 1: going to run more in the ten thousand to eighteen

1307
01:12:44,200 --> 01:12:47,360
Speaker 1: thousand dollar range, including that home study and any co

1308
01:12:47,600 --> 01:12:51,120
Speaker 1: pays for the hospital and things like that. And with

1309
01:12:51,320 --> 01:12:53,800
Speaker 1: that tax credit, you could actually do an adoption that

1310
01:12:53,880 --> 01:12:55,759
Speaker 1: may not cost you more than four or five thousand

1311
01:12:55,800 --> 01:12:59,439
Speaker 1: dollars out of your pocket ultimately. And the last thing

1312
01:12:59,520 --> 01:13:01,800
Speaker 1: to say about that is that if you suffer the

1313
01:13:01,840 --> 01:13:05,280
Speaker 1: misfortune of having an adoption go south and fail on you,

1314
01:13:05,760 --> 01:13:08,880
Speaker 1: that adoption tax credit is available to you as well.

1315
01:13:09,520 --> 01:13:13,000
Speaker 1: Oh thank god, well the money, you know, the money

1316
01:13:13,040 --> 01:13:17,240
Speaker 1: comes back. But really the place that's irreparably harmed is

1317
01:13:17,320 --> 01:13:20,040
Speaker 1: the trust level. You know, you you put your trust

1318
01:13:20,120 --> 01:13:22,760
Speaker 1: in the birth parent and you hope they'll follow through,

1319
01:13:22,880 --> 01:13:27,760
Speaker 1: and then when they say I've changed my mind, Um,

1320
01:13:28,439 --> 01:13:30,240
Speaker 1: you don't know that you'll ever be able to trust

1321
01:13:30,280 --> 01:13:32,200
Speaker 1: a woman who says I'll place my child for adoption

1322
01:13:32,280 --> 01:13:34,040
Speaker 1: with you again. And you have to sort of pick

1323
01:13:34,120 --> 01:13:36,040
Speaker 1: yourself up. And if at least you can regroup in

1324
01:13:36,120 --> 01:13:40,400
Speaker 1: the money department, you have a fighting chance to try again.

1325
01:13:41,320 --> 01:13:45,479
Speaker 1: Um you just mentioned I mean that's the biggest hurdle, um,

1326
01:13:46,080 --> 01:13:49,400
Speaker 1: I think is it's not working out in the end.

1327
01:13:49,560 --> 01:13:53,200
Speaker 1: Are there other hurdles that you, like, you know, may

1328
01:13:53,400 --> 01:13:58,640
Speaker 1: warn well. I think that. I think it's about I

1329
01:13:58,680 --> 01:14:00,599
Speaker 1: think it sounds a lot like yours, a court system,

1330
01:14:00,720 --> 01:14:03,240
Speaker 1: your relationship, Like you said, when one person is ruling

1331
01:14:03,280 --> 01:14:08,600
Speaker 1: holes and one person's you know, but that when the

1332
01:14:08,680 --> 01:14:11,760
Speaker 1: going gets tough or something and people get discouraged, it's

1333
01:14:11,800 --> 01:14:13,559
Speaker 1: like you have people around you to pick you up.

1334
01:14:14,120 --> 01:14:16,880
Speaker 1: It's something's taking too long, or the birth mother doesn't

1335
01:14:16,880 --> 01:14:18,679
Speaker 1: work out and you have to start all over again,

1336
01:14:18,840 --> 01:14:20,960
Speaker 1: which I'm sure happens in the middle of the process.

1337
01:14:21,080 --> 01:14:25,439
Speaker 1: Can sometimes it happens at the very end. I early

1338
01:14:25,560 --> 01:14:29,160
Speaker 1: on in my career had a birth mom who was

1339
01:14:29,360 --> 01:14:34,720
Speaker 1: morbidly obese and an adoptive family of a dentist at

1340
01:14:34,760 --> 01:14:37,519
Speaker 1: his spouse, and they were a lovely couple, and the

1341
01:14:37,560 --> 01:14:40,080
Speaker 1: birth mom was a really good person, she was just

1342
01:14:40,600 --> 01:14:43,599
Speaker 1: morbidly obese. In an effort to make sure she got

1343
01:14:43,680 --> 01:14:46,600
Speaker 1: the best possible medical care, we hooked her up with

1344
01:14:46,680 --> 01:14:49,360
Speaker 1: a doctor who was a professor of obstetrics at a

1345
01:14:49,439 --> 01:14:54,479
Speaker 1: major teaching university hospital so that she could get the

1346
01:14:54,560 --> 01:14:58,480
Speaker 1: extra level of care for someone with her weight. Nonetheless,

1347
01:14:59,320 --> 01:15:01,880
Speaker 1: she did not pay any attention to fact when she

1348
01:15:02,000 --> 01:15:04,760
Speaker 1: stopped feeling the baby move about three or four weeks

1349
01:15:04,840 --> 01:15:07,600
Speaker 1: before the due date, and she didn't report anything to

1350
01:15:07,680 --> 01:15:10,479
Speaker 1: the doctor. So when the doctor when the baby was born,

1351
01:15:10,600 --> 01:15:15,400
Speaker 1: the baby had insufficient brain development, and the adoptive family

1352
01:15:15,520 --> 01:15:17,200
Speaker 1: had to make the choice that they were not going

1353
01:15:17,280 --> 01:15:20,360
Speaker 1: to proceed with the adoption because of that. The young

1354
01:15:20,439 --> 01:15:24,240
Speaker 1: woman took the baby and and has raised the baby herself.

1355
01:15:25,000 --> 01:15:27,880
Speaker 1: But that's that can happen. And you can get birth

1356
01:15:27,960 --> 01:15:31,360
Speaker 1: mothers who go to hospitals because they don't have the

1357
01:15:31,360 --> 01:15:34,000
Speaker 1: guidance of an attorney to say this is not the

1358
01:15:34,120 --> 01:15:37,720
Speaker 1: hospital for you, where the hospital nurses have an agenda,

1359
01:15:38,280 --> 01:15:40,559
Speaker 1: and they actually will say to the birth mother, how

1360
01:15:40,640 --> 01:15:44,679
Speaker 1: can you do this? How can you place give away

1361
01:15:44,760 --> 01:15:47,519
Speaker 1: your baby if you shouldn't be doing that. You have

1362
01:15:47,680 --> 01:15:50,000
Speaker 1: a hard time, lots of people have a hard time.

1363
01:15:50,439 --> 01:15:53,880
Speaker 1: Suck it up, get over it, and they will talk

1364
01:15:54,000 --> 01:15:56,360
Speaker 1: the birth mother out of the placement. Oh my god,

1365
01:15:56,439 --> 01:15:59,200
Speaker 1: how do you how did I mean that is? And

1366
01:15:59,280 --> 01:16:02,320
Speaker 1: you know what happened. The adopted family is upset. They

1367
01:16:02,400 --> 01:16:05,240
Speaker 1: don't go back and notify the director at the hospital

1368
01:16:05,280 --> 01:16:07,879
Speaker 1: that this is going on. It is an unreported assault

1369
01:16:08,000 --> 01:16:11,679
Speaker 1: on the birth mother. When our daughter's birth mother gave birth,

1370
01:16:12,280 --> 01:16:15,360
Speaker 1: we were not told about it until after the baby

1371
01:16:15,479 --> 01:16:18,240
Speaker 1: was born. But our attorney, since I didn't handle my

1372
01:16:18,320 --> 01:16:22,200
Speaker 1: own adoption, called us and said a nurse came into

1373
01:16:22,320 --> 01:16:26,000
Speaker 1: the room and said to your birth mother, you shouldn't

1374
01:16:26,040 --> 01:16:28,880
Speaker 1: be doing this. And the birth mother said, I will

1375
01:16:28,960 --> 01:16:30,960
Speaker 1: give you five seconds to get out of this room

1376
01:16:31,280 --> 01:16:36,000
Speaker 1: before I cock you. That talk about it in power.

1377
01:16:36,760 --> 01:16:38,439
Speaker 1: So now when I look at my twenty nine year

1378
01:16:38,479 --> 01:16:40,760
Speaker 1: old daughter and I see I see some of her

1379
01:16:40,840 --> 01:16:44,360
Speaker 1: biological mother in these moments where she isn't going to

1380
01:16:44,400 --> 01:16:46,960
Speaker 1: be pushed a wrap. There's no doubt about it. Love it.

1381
01:16:47,280 --> 01:16:52,519
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Um. Have you worked with birth parents

1382
01:16:52,560 --> 01:16:56,320
Speaker 1: who placed their child for adoption? Yes, I never worked

1383
01:16:56,360 --> 01:17:00,320
Speaker 1: with both. So I think it's malpractice to say we're

1384
01:17:00,360 --> 01:17:03,120
Speaker 1: all striving towards the same goal. Let's have you all

1385
01:17:03,280 --> 01:17:06,760
Speaker 1: everyone represent together. I have worked with birth parents and

1386
01:17:06,840 --> 01:17:09,519
Speaker 1: they have run the gamut. I have had birth parents

1387
01:17:09,560 --> 01:17:15,000
Speaker 1: who have two degrees from universities and speak four languages

1388
01:17:15,040 --> 01:17:17,719
Speaker 1: who just found they were pregnant and an inappropriate time.

1389
01:17:18,320 --> 01:17:22,519
Speaker 1: I had a high school health teacher who mistook the

1390
01:17:22,600 --> 01:17:27,439
Speaker 1: science of pregnancy for being perimenopausal, uh, and discovered when

1391
01:17:27,479 --> 01:17:29,800
Speaker 1: she went to her doctor that she said, I have

1392
01:17:30,000 --> 01:17:32,880
Speaker 1: this mass and it's developing in my abdomen and I

1393
01:17:32,960 --> 01:17:34,840
Speaker 1: think I need surgery. And he said, oh, there will

1394
01:17:34,880 --> 01:17:37,240
Speaker 1: be no need. In about six months that mass will

1395
01:17:37,280 --> 01:17:40,360
Speaker 1: come out as a baby. And she said, that's impossible. Um,

1396
01:17:41,160 --> 01:17:44,559
Speaker 1: what are some of the questions that anyone who's interested

1397
01:17:44,560 --> 01:17:47,479
Speaker 1: in adoption to ask themselves before they go down the road?

1398
01:17:47,760 --> 01:17:49,760
Speaker 1: You know? We said, like you can tell in their eyes,

1399
01:17:49,960 --> 01:17:53,400
Speaker 1: like some times if you guys aren't there yet, or

1400
01:17:54,640 --> 01:17:57,360
Speaker 1: I think you have to ask yourselves if you're single,

1401
01:17:57,880 --> 01:18:00,160
Speaker 1: Am I ready to make the time commitment and I

1402
01:18:00,240 --> 01:18:02,880
Speaker 1: have a game plan thought out? I'm going to bring

1403
01:18:02,960 --> 01:18:05,479
Speaker 1: the baby home. I still have a job. Have I

1404
01:18:05,680 --> 01:18:09,759
Speaker 1: interviewed pediatricians. Have I talked to people who are single

1405
01:18:09,760 --> 01:18:12,479
Speaker 1: about how they manage it? Am I ready to make

1406
01:18:12,520 --> 01:18:15,439
Speaker 1: the sacrifices they come with being a parent? Because the

1407
01:18:15,520 --> 01:18:18,200
Speaker 1: ability when you are not a parent to say, let's

1408
01:18:18,240 --> 01:18:21,640
Speaker 1: go away for the weekend. Let's just you know, have

1409
01:18:21,760 --> 01:18:24,200
Speaker 1: the neighbor looking on the dog and we'll go to

1410
01:18:24,320 --> 01:18:26,960
Speaker 1: Las Vegas, or will fly away. You can't do it,

1411
01:18:27,479 --> 01:18:30,160
Speaker 1: and you have to recognize that you can't be the

1412
01:18:30,240 --> 01:18:35,040
Speaker 1: center of attention anymore because the child will need your attention.

1413
01:18:35,640 --> 01:18:38,840
Speaker 1: I think in marital relations, if your marriage is not

1414
01:18:39,080 --> 01:18:43,439
Speaker 1: strong and your relationship with one another is not rock solid,

1415
01:18:44,040 --> 01:18:46,479
Speaker 1: bringing a baby in is not going to help it.

1416
01:18:46,920 --> 01:18:50,160
Speaker 1: And sometimes people feel, oh, baby makes three and that

1417
01:18:50,280 --> 01:18:52,640
Speaker 1: will be wonderful, So they really need to look at that.

1418
01:18:53,120 --> 01:18:55,720
Speaker 1: And then you need to look at will I be

1419
01:18:55,840 --> 01:19:01,320
Speaker 1: able to get past the feeling that I'm adopting a

1420
01:19:01,439 --> 01:19:04,040
Speaker 1: child I'm not having my own. Well, I be able

1421
01:19:04,080 --> 01:19:07,240
Speaker 1: to deal with that. Some parents can't. For those who

1422
01:19:07,320 --> 01:19:09,760
Speaker 1: feel that if it's not genetically mine, I will not

1423
01:19:09,960 --> 01:19:12,640
Speaker 1: be able to ever love it the same way, they

1424
01:19:12,760 --> 01:19:15,480
Speaker 1: need to come and talk with me about assisted reproduction

1425
01:19:15,960 --> 01:19:21,160
Speaker 1: and family formation through surrogacy. That's what's necessary. You want

1426
01:19:21,200 --> 01:19:25,559
Speaker 1: to have those discussions ideally before and think those things

1427
01:19:25,640 --> 01:19:28,320
Speaker 1: through before the baby is born, and you try your

1428
01:19:28,360 --> 01:19:30,120
Speaker 1: best to do it. I know I tried my best

1429
01:19:30,160 --> 01:19:32,760
Speaker 1: to do with my wife when we were looking at

1430
01:19:32,760 --> 01:19:35,519
Speaker 1: the process of adopting. But I'll share this little story

1431
01:19:35,600 --> 01:19:38,720
Speaker 1: with you. Our daughter was born out of state and

1432
01:19:38,920 --> 01:19:40,880
Speaker 1: we went up in the morning to pick her up

1433
01:19:40,920 --> 01:19:43,840
Speaker 1: at the hospital, and we flew home that night and

1434
01:19:44,000 --> 01:19:48,240
Speaker 1: brought her home to our little condominium in Encino, and

1435
01:19:48,640 --> 01:19:53,160
Speaker 1: uh the parents, grandparents came over and spend time OUI

1436
01:19:53,360 --> 01:19:57,840
Speaker 1: and I and how beautiful she was, and the Godfather

1437
01:19:58,080 --> 01:20:01,400
Speaker 1: came over, and the god there came over. And then

1438
01:20:01,439 --> 01:20:04,400
Speaker 1: at about nine o'clock at night, my wife and I

1439
01:20:04,479 --> 01:20:09,240
Speaker 1: were really exhausted, and they graciously took the hint and left.

1440
01:20:09,760 --> 01:20:13,600
Speaker 1: My wife takes Jesse into the room, her into the

1441
01:20:14,120 --> 01:20:17,560
Speaker 1: nursery area to change her diaper, and I went to

1442
01:20:17,640 --> 01:20:20,519
Speaker 1: the kitchen to grab a glass of water. And it

1443
01:20:20,720 --> 01:20:23,760
Speaker 1: hit me as I was walking back towards Jesse's room

1444
01:20:24,680 --> 01:20:27,640
Speaker 1: that I was not so certain that I was up

1445
01:20:27,680 --> 01:20:30,479
Speaker 1: to this task. And I walked my wife and I

1446
01:20:30,600 --> 01:20:34,479
Speaker 1: said to her, ah, I don't know if I can

1447
01:20:34,560 --> 01:20:40,720
Speaker 1: do this, and she said to me, you know what,

1448
01:20:41,600 --> 01:20:46,240
Speaker 1: it's a little too late now, Suck it up, you know.

1449
01:20:46,840 --> 01:20:49,559
Speaker 1: But that she got back to the business of diapering,

1450
01:20:50,000 --> 01:20:52,439
Speaker 1: and I got into the business of parenting with her,

1451
01:20:52,880 --> 01:20:56,000
Speaker 1: and I realized, You're always going to have that nervousness.

1452
01:20:56,200 --> 01:20:58,680
Speaker 1: Every person who brings a newborn in their homehouse. It

1453
01:20:59,120 --> 01:21:03,320
Speaker 1: isn't unique to had I definitely had without a doubt,

1454
01:21:03,960 --> 01:21:05,840
Speaker 1: and I didn't you know, you know, I have a

1455
01:21:06,000 --> 01:21:09,200
Speaker 1: I berthed my son, but I definitely brought him home

1456
01:21:09,240 --> 01:21:11,680
Speaker 1: and thought, who is this stranger in my house? And

1457
01:21:11,720 --> 01:21:14,000
Speaker 1: what did I do to my life? And you know,

1458
01:21:15,200 --> 01:21:17,080
Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm up for the task either,

1459
01:21:17,240 --> 01:21:19,439
Speaker 1: and suck it up, you know, like this was you

1460
01:21:19,560 --> 01:21:21,800
Speaker 1: got yourself in and you wanted, you know, to be

1461
01:21:21,880 --> 01:21:25,800
Speaker 1: a mom of course now you know, but I feel

1462
01:21:25,840 --> 01:21:28,760
Speaker 1: great about the choice. But well you can't when these

1463
01:21:28,840 --> 01:21:34,320
Speaker 1: huge life things are do people ever start the process

1464
01:21:34,360 --> 01:21:36,200
Speaker 1: and then say to you, you know what, I really

1465
01:21:37,200 --> 01:21:38,800
Speaker 1: I'm scared that I'm not going to connect to the

1466
01:21:38,920 --> 01:21:42,160
Speaker 1: child because the child is adopted, and I'm going to

1467
01:21:42,240 --> 01:21:43,920
Speaker 1: look at the baby's face and they're not going to

1468
01:21:44,040 --> 01:21:46,800
Speaker 1: look like me or my partner or whatever. It happens,

1469
01:21:46,960 --> 01:21:50,640
Speaker 1: And some absolutely back out of the process. Mercifully it

1470
01:21:50,840 --> 01:21:54,600
Speaker 1: usually happens before a match is made. I do not

1471
01:21:54,800 --> 01:21:58,320
Speaker 1: think I've ever had a situation. No, I'm fairly certain

1472
01:21:58,320 --> 01:22:00,800
Speaker 1: I've never had a situation where after a match a

1473
01:22:00,840 --> 01:22:03,400
Speaker 1: couple says we've changed our mind, we don't want to proceed.

1474
01:22:03,840 --> 01:22:07,280
Speaker 1: But pre match, oh yes, because part of the problem

1475
01:22:07,320 --> 01:22:10,439
Speaker 1: is when you're adopting. You never as an adoptive parent.

1476
01:22:10,520 --> 01:22:12,160
Speaker 1: Now I'm not going to speak as an attorney, I'm

1477
01:22:12,160 --> 01:22:15,200
Speaker 1: gonna speak as an adoptive parent, which I am. You

1478
01:22:15,360 --> 01:22:18,440
Speaker 1: never allow yourself any of the pleasures of the experience

1479
01:22:18,520 --> 01:22:21,800
Speaker 1: of a pregnancy. If you can be quite pleasure with pregnancy,

1480
01:22:22,920 --> 01:22:25,719
Speaker 1: never allow yourself any of those pleasures going through the process,

1481
01:22:25,760 --> 01:22:27,640
Speaker 1: because in the back of your mind is that what

1482
01:22:27,800 --> 01:22:32,200
Speaker 1: if she changes her mind? Dan, It's like you can

1483
01:22:32,280 --> 01:22:37,960
Speaker 1: only be super cautiously optimistic. You don't dare indulge the

1484
01:22:38,360 --> 01:22:42,400
Speaker 1: real big dreaming, and so suddenly it all comes upon you. It.

1485
01:22:42,920 --> 01:22:47,519
Speaker 1: People in the supermarkets will turn turn to us. When

1486
01:22:47,600 --> 01:22:49,360
Speaker 1: our daughter was little and we used to go to

1487
01:22:49,439 --> 01:22:52,160
Speaker 1: the grocery store and bring her with us, and they'd say, oh,

1488
01:22:52,320 --> 01:22:57,760
Speaker 1: that baby is so cute. Uh, but she has no

1489
01:22:58,080 --> 01:23:02,720
Speaker 1: hair and or she looks this way. How is she

1490
01:23:02,920 --> 01:23:05,800
Speaker 1: your child? And we say yes. And for a while

1491
01:23:05,880 --> 01:23:09,120
Speaker 1: we used to say we adopted her, and they'd say, oh, well,

1492
01:23:09,200 --> 01:23:13,200
Speaker 1: at least you didn't have to go through labor. My

1493
01:23:13,720 --> 01:23:18,920
Speaker 1: people say the most ridiculous ship, that is absurd that

1494
01:23:19,040 --> 01:23:22,960
Speaker 1: you know what, we didn't have physical labor. I acknowledged

1495
01:23:23,000 --> 01:23:27,000
Speaker 1: that we didn't. Instead, we had no real moments of pleasure.

1496
01:23:27,439 --> 01:23:32,120
Speaker 1: You had mental and you had mental and emotional pregnancy,

1497
01:23:32,240 --> 01:23:34,519
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like you have that window,

1498
01:23:34,680 --> 01:23:37,519
Speaker 1: however long. It takes some people two years of pondering

1499
01:23:37,600 --> 01:23:39,760
Speaker 1: and dreaming a little bit, but then keeping it at

1500
01:23:39,800 --> 01:23:42,960
Speaker 1: bay right, and then you found her baby and you

1501
01:23:43,120 --> 01:23:45,280
Speaker 1: have the baby in sight. Now the do data is

1502
01:23:45,320 --> 01:23:47,960
Speaker 1: approaching and at the time we adopted, a birth mom

1503
01:23:48,040 --> 01:23:51,000
Speaker 1: had six months to change her mind for any reason.

1504
01:23:51,240 --> 01:23:53,080
Speaker 1: It didn't even have to be a good reason. So

1505
01:23:53,600 --> 01:23:55,760
Speaker 1: we went out of state where we could finalize in

1506
01:23:55,880 --> 01:23:58,600
Speaker 1: ten days. In Oregon, we were able to do it

1507
01:23:58,680 --> 01:24:01,960
Speaker 1: in ten days, and so we didn't have all that stress.

1508
01:24:02,160 --> 01:24:04,439
Speaker 1: But there were good moments in the grocery store too.

1509
01:24:04,840 --> 01:24:06,439
Speaker 1: You'd be in the grocery store and someone to come

1510
01:24:06,720 --> 01:24:09,800
Speaker 1: and look at Jesse and say, oh, she's so cute.

1511
01:24:09,840 --> 01:24:12,360
Speaker 1: How old is she? And my wife would say, oh,

1512
01:24:12,439 --> 01:24:19,400
Speaker 1: she's six weeks old, and they'd say unbelievable, or we

1513
01:24:19,560 --> 01:24:22,120
Speaker 1: get The Other one, which was always good, was she

1514
01:24:22,320 --> 01:24:25,960
Speaker 1: has the most beautiful blue eyes and where does she

1515
01:24:26,080 --> 01:24:29,760
Speaker 1: get those eyes? And my wife would say from her mother,

1516
01:24:30,320 --> 01:24:32,360
Speaker 1: and they look at my wife who does not have

1517
01:24:32,479 --> 01:24:34,960
Speaker 1: blue eyes, and they look at the baby again, they

1518
01:24:35,040 --> 01:24:39,120
Speaker 1: didn't know what to say. Hilarious. I love that. Can

1519
01:24:39,200 --> 01:24:42,760
Speaker 1: you recommend any helpful resources for those considering it? I

1520
01:24:42,800 --> 01:24:46,559
Speaker 1: would just also add that there are sites which I'll

1521
01:24:46,600 --> 01:24:48,760
Speaker 1: give you information for about where you can go as

1522
01:24:48,800 --> 01:24:52,360
Speaker 1: a resource for good lawyers and good agencies to work with.

1523
01:24:52,880 --> 01:24:55,679
Speaker 1: There are also sites that talk about funding and financial

1524
01:24:55,720 --> 01:24:58,160
Speaker 1: assistance for people who are looking to adopt. But at

1525
01:24:58,200 --> 01:25:00,439
Speaker 1: the end of the day, it's about doing your homework

1526
01:25:01,160 --> 01:25:03,479
Speaker 1: and making sure that you're working with the right people.

1527
01:25:04,080 --> 01:25:08,639
Speaker 1: As I approached the year, in my practice, I'm shifting

1528
01:25:08,680 --> 01:25:10,759
Speaker 1: the way that I practice in the field of adoption

1529
01:25:10,840 --> 01:25:13,160
Speaker 1: law and now what I'm doing more as I'm sitting

1530
01:25:13,200 --> 01:25:16,519
Speaker 1: down with clients who are thinking about adoption and talking

1531
01:25:16,600 --> 01:25:19,439
Speaker 1: with them about the concept of adoption and the avenues

1532
01:25:19,479 --> 01:25:25,880
Speaker 1: available for adoption, and helping match them up with those resources,

1533
01:25:26,000 --> 01:25:29,240
Speaker 1: with the attorneys or the agencies that would best suit

1534
01:25:29,320 --> 01:25:33,160
Speaker 1: their personalities, their budget, and their expectations. So it's a

1535
01:25:33,240 --> 01:25:35,640
Speaker 1: more of a concierge service that I am offering now

1536
01:25:36,160 --> 01:25:41,599
Speaker 1: rather than finding babies for people. Because not every attorney

1537
01:25:41,680 --> 01:25:45,760
Speaker 1: is right for every adoptive parent and so that that

1538
01:25:46,040 --> 01:25:49,400
Speaker 1: initial matches I think the most important thing. So you

1539
01:25:49,520 --> 01:25:52,160
Speaker 1: recommend people may be meeting with a few lawyers or

1540
01:25:52,520 --> 01:25:56,519
Speaker 1: absolutely or working with someone like myself for others who

1541
01:25:56,600 --> 01:25:58,519
Speaker 1: do this work, who will sit and talk to the

1542
01:25:58,600 --> 01:26:00,400
Speaker 1: clients and find out what their look king for and

1543
01:26:00,479 --> 01:26:03,040
Speaker 1: what their expectations are, and say, you know, with your

1544
01:26:03,080 --> 01:26:05,880
Speaker 1: personalities and what your desires are, these are the people

1545
01:26:06,000 --> 01:26:08,519
Speaker 1: I would recommend you interview. These would be the short

1546
01:26:08,600 --> 01:26:11,720
Speaker 1: list of one or two. I used to early on

1547
01:26:11,800 --> 01:26:13,760
Speaker 1: in my practice. Clients would come in and meet with

1548
01:26:13,880 --> 01:26:16,120
Speaker 1: me and we would give them the fee agreements, and

1549
01:26:16,200 --> 01:26:18,040
Speaker 1: we had a fairly good amount who signed up with

1550
01:26:18,120 --> 01:26:21,519
Speaker 1: me on the spot. I stopped doing that about maybe

1551
01:26:21,560 --> 01:26:24,479
Speaker 1: twenty years ago, and part of it was because my

1552
01:26:24,600 --> 01:26:27,920
Speaker 1: fee agreement was thirteen pages long because it has to

1553
01:26:28,000 --> 01:26:31,040
Speaker 1: cover so much material. But also it was because I

1554
01:26:31,200 --> 01:26:35,160
Speaker 1: really felt that after a consultation, no matter how enthusiastic

1555
01:26:35,240 --> 01:26:38,320
Speaker 1: you are, you need to go home and talk with

1556
01:26:38,520 --> 01:26:41,160
Speaker 1: your spouse or your support group or if you're a

1557
01:26:41,200 --> 01:26:44,360
Speaker 1: single person, or your family or your friends and make

1558
01:26:44,439 --> 01:26:47,120
Speaker 1: sure you feel right. And you're not doing it because

1559
01:26:47,160 --> 01:26:51,439
Speaker 1: you're enthusiastic, but you're making a business decision one, Tea.

1560
01:26:51,600 --> 01:26:55,160
Speaker 1: That's why you're a good lawyer. That's why you're amazing well,

1561
01:26:55,200 --> 01:26:56,920
Speaker 1: because like you have to give people you know you're

1562
01:26:56,960 --> 01:26:59,280
Speaker 1: not looking to let's do this right here and now,

1563
01:26:59,560 --> 01:27:02,800
Speaker 1: it doesn't work that way. It is such an emotional

1564
01:27:03,160 --> 01:27:08,040
Speaker 1: legal thing. But that is exactly the you've hit the

1565
01:27:08,120 --> 01:27:10,880
Speaker 1: nail on the head. No one wants to talk about

1566
01:27:10,920 --> 01:27:15,160
Speaker 1: adoption as a business transaction. They want to talk about

1567
01:27:15,200 --> 01:27:18,320
Speaker 1: it as an affair of the heart. But it is

1568
01:27:18,400 --> 01:27:21,519
Speaker 1: a business deal first and foremost. You are going to

1569
01:27:21,600 --> 01:27:23,920
Speaker 1: be asked to put out some money, and you best

1570
01:27:24,000 --> 01:27:26,280
Speaker 1: make sure that you've hired the best people who will

1571
01:27:26,320 --> 01:27:29,200
Speaker 1: give you the best bang for your buck and do

1572
01:27:29,400 --> 01:27:31,439
Speaker 1: the job that you need done. If not, it's a

1573
01:27:31,640 --> 01:27:36,920
Speaker 1: terrible choice. And if it's if if they're enthusiastic about

1574
01:27:36,960 --> 01:27:40,839
Speaker 1: their meeting with me and they read the the agreement

1575
01:27:40,880 --> 01:27:44,360
Speaker 1: and they talk and they're still enthusiastic, that's a good match.

1576
01:27:45,240 --> 01:27:47,840
Speaker 1: Being enthusiastic because I just need to do something. I

1577
01:27:47,920 --> 01:27:49,920
Speaker 1: need to sign something right now. I just need to

1578
01:27:49,960 --> 01:27:52,200
Speaker 1: get that ball rolling, and then going home and saying

1579
01:27:53,840 --> 01:27:57,880
Speaker 1: I wonder if I should have considered something else. I

1580
01:27:57,920 --> 01:28:00,320
Speaker 1: wonder if I should have met with just another attory attorney,

1581
01:28:00,360 --> 01:28:04,360
Speaker 1: swat some to compare, compare, some comparison, and then of

1582
01:28:04,439 --> 01:28:07,519
Speaker 1: course you get people who come by referral. I've been

1583
01:28:07,640 --> 01:28:11,040
Speaker 1: very blessed to have people who I've done adoptions for

1584
01:28:11,200 --> 01:28:13,759
Speaker 1: who refer their friends and their family and their colleagues.

1585
01:28:14,280 --> 01:28:17,560
Speaker 1: And not every person who they refer hires me, not

1586
01:28:17,720 --> 01:28:20,639
Speaker 1: every person as someone I can help, but those referrals

1587
01:28:20,680 --> 01:28:25,920
Speaker 1: are really what builds the business. You are wonderful. I

1588
01:28:26,040 --> 01:28:29,200
Speaker 1: cannot thank you enough for lending us your time and

1589
01:28:29,400 --> 01:28:32,600
Speaker 1: your experience. She was so eye opening, and thank you

1590
01:28:32,680 --> 01:28:34,320
Speaker 1: for all of your time. Thank you for being on

1591
01:28:34,479 --> 01:28:38,240
Speaker 1: Katie's Crib. Thank you guys so much for listening to

1592
01:28:38,320 --> 01:28:43,320
Speaker 1: Katie's Crib. In the next episode, my guest is shot

1593
01:28:43,439 --> 01:28:47,960
Speaker 1: up freaking rhymes. Okay, you heard it right. She's going

1594
01:28:48,040 --> 01:28:50,479
Speaker 1: to share her experiences as a mom and how she

1595
01:28:50,600 --> 01:28:54,400
Speaker 1: navigated the adoption process twice. Oh you guys, she has

1596
01:28:54,439 --> 01:28:57,120
Speaker 1: so much wisdom to share. Keep your eyes and ears

1597
01:28:57,439 --> 01:28:59,719
Speaker 1: open for that one next week. Make sure you're subscribed

1598
01:28:59,720 --> 01:29:01,559
Speaker 1: to kate Is Crib so you get that and every

1599
01:29:01,600 --> 01:29:04,200
Speaker 1: episode as soon as it's released. You can find Katie's

1600
01:29:04,240 --> 01:29:07,719
Speaker 1: Crib on Shawn Lynn dot com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher,

1601
01:29:07,960 --> 01:29:14,560
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. Okay by watch, I Want you,

1602
01:29:14,680 --> 01:29:17,519
Speaker 1: Want You Want You