1 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: On this episode of news World. For fans of HBO's 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:11,720 Speaker 1: award winning and popular Succession TV series, which follows the 3 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 1: roy family as they buy for control of their media empire, 4 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: here comes a new book, Unscripted, the epic battle for 5 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: a media empire and the Redstone family legacy. And while 6 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: the Succession series is inspired by the Murdock family, Unscripted 7 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: is the true story of Sumner Redstone and the Redstone 8 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 1: Family as they wrestled for control of Paramount Global, an 9 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:42,200 Speaker 1: empire that included Paramount, CBS, MTV, Nickelodeon, Showtime, and Simon 10 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:45,559 Speaker 1: and Schuster. Here to discuss their new book. I am 11 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:49,239 Speaker 1: really pleased to welcome my guests, James B. Stewart, New 12 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: York Times bestselling author and columnists to The New York Times, 13 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: and Rachel Abrams, reporter and senior producer for the New 14 00:00:56,120 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: York Times television documentary series The New York Times Presents 15 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: James and Rachel. Welcome and thank you both for joining 16 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: me on Newtsworld. 17 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 2: Thank you for having us. 18 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, great to be here. 19 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:20,119 Speaker 1: I'm really curious how did you two decide to work 20 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: together on Unscripted? 21 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 2: Well, Jim and I were both reporters at the Times, 22 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 2: but we actually had never met before. But it turned 23 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:29,960 Speaker 2: out that we at the height of the me too movement, 24 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:34,040 Speaker 2: had both gotten different tips about what we ended up 25 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 2: learning was the same story, and that was the real 26 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 2: reasons why Les Moonvez, the former head of CBS, was 27 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 2: ousted from the company. I had gotten a tip, Jim 28 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:45,399 Speaker 2: had gotten a tip, and an editor had said, you know, 29 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 2: I think you guys should pair up. And Jim had 30 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 2: the benefit of sitting on the outside aisle where his 31 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 2: desk was, so that all the foot traffic coming and 32 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 2: going from the newsroom would pass by, and I passed 33 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 2: by one day I said, oh, you know, let me 34 00:01:57,080 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 2: just stop and ask Jim. And I had to introduce 35 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 2: myself because we didn't even know each other, but I 36 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 2: asked him what he was working on. I told him 37 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 2: about this source that had come forward with a treasure 38 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 2: trove of materials that really complimented some materials that Jim 39 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 2: was already getting from his source. And we paired up 40 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 2: and started reporting out the story for The New York Times, 41 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 2: And at some point Jim and I looked at each 42 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 2: other and we just thought, Wow, this whole saga with 43 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 2: less Moonvest and the Redstone family. This is such an 44 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 2: incredible family drama and human drama. This really deserves a book. 45 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 2: So that's kind of how it started. 46 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd never done a book with anyone before, and 47 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 3: what we worked together really good on the stories that 48 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:35,640 Speaker 3: kind of spawned it. But looking back on it now, 49 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:37,959 Speaker 3: I think, wow, that was a big risk. I keep 50 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 3: pinching myself that it worked out so well because we've 51 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 3: had a wonderful time working together on this, and Rachel said, 52 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 3: I'm glad we had each other because these revelations were 53 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 3: so amazing that you know, Rachel will call me and said, 54 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:52,519 Speaker 3: can you believe this? And I'd call back and say, 55 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 3: oh my god, guess what I just found? Because it 56 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 3: was great to have someone to kind of share those 57 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 3: discoveries with as they unfolded. 58 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: Was it a little startling, as you were in the 59 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: middle of all this to have Succession show up as 60 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: a TV series. 61 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,359 Speaker 3: I remember our editor mentioned quite early on that there 62 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 3: were similarities, and at that point I deliberately decided I'm 63 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 3: not going to watch this. I didn't want it in 64 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 3: any way influencing how we ended up interpreting our material 65 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 3: and then presenting it in written form. So I only 66 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 3: watched Succession after we had turned in the manuscript. Of course, 67 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 3: now I'm an avid watcher. I'm like waiting every Sunday 68 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 3: night for the latest episode to drop. And the parallels 69 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 3: are incredibly interesting, and the difference. It's Rachel and I've 70 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 3: spent some time talking about all that, but I don't know, Rachel, 71 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 3: you might have plunged in sooner than I did. I've 72 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 3: been obsessed. 73 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 2: It's so great. I think it was really good to 74 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 2: have one of us not have seen it and one 75 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 2: of us have seen it, just because now being asked 76 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 2: to compare the show, it's fresh in both of our minds, 77 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 2: and I've of course been stewing on this for a 78 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 2: little while longer. We're so grateful for the Succession audience 79 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 2: because truly, the audience that likes Succession will love this book, 80 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 2: because this is such a good example of the truth 81 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 2: can be stranger than fiction. 82 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 3: We were at a party in Los Angeles recently and 83 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 3: somebody walked up and said, your book, Unscripted makes Succession 84 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:25,479 Speaker 3: look like Little House on the Prairie. 85 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, that does seem like there's a pathology 86 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:34,599 Speaker 1: of families of enormous wealth, the ones that are healthy 87 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:36,919 Speaker 1: are fine, but the ones that are unhealthy have the 88 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: resources to become really pretty strange. 89 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 2: H that's a very good way of putting it. 90 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. 91 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 3: I think one of Rachel's famous lines, because you dug 92 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 3: this up, Rachel, was that the Redstones gave each other 93 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 3: subpoenas for Christmas. 94 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 2: Yes, that was the joke around CBS. That was the joker, 95 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 2: and that the employees would use. 96 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 3: There's all this litigation, and this high powered litigation with 97 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 3: expensive lawyers. I mean, you have to be very rich 98 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 3: to be going around suing everybody and defending lawsuits and 99 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 3: launching lawsuits. And there were a lot of lawsuits here, which, 100 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 3: by the way, was good for us because they all 101 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:14,599 Speaker 3: produce a treasure trove of original materials as evidence, much 102 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 3: of which we were able to get our hands on 103 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 3: or see at one time or another, even if some 104 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:22,039 Speaker 3: of it had been sealed from public view. If there's 105 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 3: an overriding moral of this story, it's if you want 106 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 3: to be a billionaire, and you might think twice about it. 107 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 3: I think money can enhance people's quality of life, no 108 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 3: doubt about it. But too much money sows its own problems. 109 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 3: I know. That's not a new idea because all the 110 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 3: way back to Shakespeare, but it's very dramatic in this tale. 111 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 3: I think a point that Rachel has made and I 112 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 3: agree with it, is that you would think that when 113 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 3: you have that much money, you would be surrounded by 114 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 3: the best advisors and the best of everything. Really, you 115 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 3: can afford that the accountants, the lawyers, the pr people, 116 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 3: and they were. There was an army of them there, 117 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 3: and yet the guardrails went off. And what explains that? 118 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 3: And it's fascinating to see again, when you have that 119 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 3: much money, even though you're paying for all this high 120 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 3: powered advice, so few of these people seem willing to 121 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 3: tell in this case, some the Redstone what he didn't 122 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 3: want to hear. It's an echo chamber where everybody is 123 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 3: current favor and trying to get something out of you, 124 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 3: and so they feed you what they think you want 125 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:27,479 Speaker 3: to hear, rather than what the best advice might be. 126 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 3: I think that's part of it. And then I totally 127 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 3: agree that the psychology of this, particularly in a world 128 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 3: where nobody ever contradicts you. You're rich, you're powerful. People 129 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 3: want to do what you want, and I guess your 130 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 3: ego sort of swells and you know, you're complimented all 131 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 3: the time, every says you're a genius, you start to 132 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 3: believe it. It creates a lot of problems. 133 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 1: In the case of the Redstone family, how many of 134 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 1: the problems came from Sumner and how many of them 135 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:00,159 Speaker 1: came from other members of the family who so how 136 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 1: would sour well. 137 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 2: Certainly Sumner's temperament and his ruthlessness and his need to 138 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 2: win at any cost really was detrimental to his relationships 139 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 2: and caused him problems later in life. Jim has said, 140 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 2: for example, that this book really made him think and 141 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 2: made both of us think that what matters is the 142 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 2: relationships you have in your life, especially at the end 143 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 2: of your life when you become vulnerable. And Sumner pushed 144 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 2: away his son, they were not on speaking terms for 145 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 2: years after a dispute. He was ruthless and mean and 146 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 2: abusive to his daughter, and so basically the way that 147 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 2: he treated people this is just one example from the book, 148 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 2: but the way that he treated his own family and 149 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 2: people that might have cared about him more and been 150 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 2: in position to protect him left him vulnerable for users 151 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 2: and hangers on. In particular, the two women who moved 152 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 2: into the mansion and basically took over his life and 153 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 2: isolated him from his family and made off with at 154 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 2: least one hundred and fifty million dollars and by the way, 155 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 2: almost took over his entire media empire. So that's just 156 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 2: one example of the way that he treated people, really 157 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 2: coming back to haunt him later in life. 158 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 3: I think the core relationship here is I think Sumner 159 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 3: and his daughter, Sherry. We think it's interesting that literature 160 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 3: and particularly nonfiction hasn't explored that father daughter relationship in 161 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 3: much depth, at least compared to fathers and sons and 162 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 3: mothers and daughters. It's really very interesting to see the 163 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 3: mix that Sumner subjects her to of both competition, belittling 164 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 3: her because she's a woman, having expectations of her because 165 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 3: she's a woman, but in the end treating her horribly. 166 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 3: And it's incredible. He did drive his son away, and 167 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 3: it's amazing that he didn't drive his daughter away. I mean, 168 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 3: he came close. There were points where she said, look, 169 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 3: I'm just going to sell get out of this, try 170 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 3: to detach, but she hung in there, and in the 171 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 3: end express is maybe the only person left who really 172 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:59,079 Speaker 3: loved him. And I think It is a tribute to 173 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 3: that very strong family. Beyond that she still had this 174 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 3: yearning for his love and affection despite everything that he 175 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 3: inflicted on her. 176 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: In March nineteen seventy nine, Sumner was staying at the 177 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: Copley Plaza and caught fire. He escaped through a window. 178 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: He hung from a ledge and literally the flames apparently 179 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: engulfed his arm and his hand. After sixty hours of 180 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:29,239 Speaker 1: surgery at Mass General, his right hand was permanently deformed 181 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 1: a little more than a claw. How much do you 182 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: think having that disfigurement affected him and shaped him. 183 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 2: I think that he himself would often use this as 184 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 2: an example of how he could survive anything, and he 185 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:46,839 Speaker 2: would half jokingly say that he didn't need a succession 186 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 2: plan because he was going to live forever. And I 187 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 2: don't think it's a stretch to say that this incident 188 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 2: really gave Sumner a sense of invincibility and certainly a 189 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 2: need to win it all costs, because to him, this 190 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 2: incident was an example of if I could s this, 191 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 2: I could survive anything, and I should be able to 192 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 2: win and get whatever I want. 193 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 1: So instead of disfiguring him psychologically in a negative way, 194 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 1: it actually gave him a sense of empowerment, which may 195 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:15,319 Speaker 1: have been a way of coping with walking around every 196 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 1: day with a deformed hand. That you can't hide it, 197 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:20,959 Speaker 1: so it either makes you feel bad or it's proof 198 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:22,199 Speaker 1: of your invincibility. 199 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 2: It's certainly impossible to get inside his head, but I 200 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 2: would argue that if you want to measure it as 201 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 2: a positive by how it affected him and his ability 202 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 2: to be successful in business. Sure, maybe it did drive 203 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 2: him business wise, but I would argue that that temperament 204 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 2: really destroyed some of his relationships and his personal life 205 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 2: in ways that we were talking about that really came 206 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,679 Speaker 2: back to bite him at its heart. People love Succession 207 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 2: because it's a family drama that is not about the business. 208 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 2: The business is just the backdrop. And this too, it's 209 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 2: not about Paramount and yacommon CBS. That's the backdrop to 210 00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 2: this really difficult, sad, torture times abusive family story. And 211 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 2: I think if you measure in that sense, that fire 212 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:07,199 Speaker 2: was really very destructive. 213 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 3: He had his insecurities, believe me, and there was a 214 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,839 Speaker 3: poignant exchange that we were able to report between him 215 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 3: and one of his many many women that he was 216 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 3: involved in and purported to love whatever. But he said, 217 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 3: at one point, would you be interested in me if 218 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 3: you know I wasn't you know, this rich and powerful mogul. 219 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 3: And you know, she said she had to pause and said, well, 220 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 3: you know, I don't know. You know, you're not very nice. 221 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 3: I thought that was a really very poignant exchange. But 222 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 3: you know, it was never about his hand. He didn't 223 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 3: have an insecurity about that. As best I could tell, 224 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 3: there wasn't ever any in the many many interviews we did, 225 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 3: no one ever said that he was the least bit 226 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 3: defensive about that. He didn't hide it. He would play 227 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 3: tennis with it, with the tennis racket strap to his arm. 228 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 3: I think, as Rachel said anything, he was kind of 229 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 3: proud of this sort of badge of revival and a 230 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 3: testament to his incredible will power. And it was very fierce. 231 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 1: It strikes me it's almost a Shakespearean play. They have 232 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 1: all these different tensions and greatness and darkness mixed together. Yeah. 233 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 3: One of the things I people say, oh, and business reporting, 234 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 3: whatever you know business reporting, or even you know, as 235 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:26,079 Speaker 3: you well know, political reporting, it's people reporting. I mean, 236 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 3: we all share these qualities to varying degrees. And they're 237 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 3: on full display here. It's just that in this context 238 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:38,200 Speaker 3: you add a big helping of money and power, which 239 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 3: maybe you kind of magnify some of this, But I 240 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 3: think anybody can identify with the powers and recognize some 241 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:48,119 Speaker 3: of these qualities, in many cases in their own families, 242 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 3: stripped of the fact that these people have billions of dollars. 243 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: What surprised you the most as you researched the book? 244 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: And was it the same thing or was each of 245 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 1: you surprised by something different? 246 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 3: We had so many do you want to start, Rachel? 247 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 2: I think it's kind of what you were saying before, 248 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 2: Jim about the lack of guardrails around this guy. Yes, 249 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 2: of course Sumner's money made him a target for some 250 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 2: of the abuse and some of the people who took 251 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,319 Speaker 2: advantage of him. But I was so shocked that there 252 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 2: wouldn't be more guardrails around him to keep those types 253 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:38,719 Speaker 2: of people out. And it was really very sobering, thinking, well, 254 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 2: if it could happen to him, it could happen to anybody. 255 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:44,319 Speaker 2: I think anybody who's listening to this podcast who's ever 256 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 2: had to deal or take care of somebody they loved 257 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:51,599 Speaker 2: as they grew older and was becoming more infirm, more vulnerable. 258 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 2: I think they'll be able to relate to this book 259 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 2: because this is a guy who should have, as Jim said, 260 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 2: had so many more protections around him, he could afford 261 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 2: all the things in the world, and he didn't. And 262 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 2: I think people will understand people who have cared for 263 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:08,680 Speaker 2: an aging love would one will really understand how difficult 264 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 2: that can be. I think this is a good cautionary 265 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:12,839 Speaker 2: tale that no matter how much money and power you have, 266 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 2: you need people that love you around you to help 267 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 2: you at the end of your life. 268 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 3: These two women who moved in the house with him, 269 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 3: one of them was his so called fiancees you had 270 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 3: a none caret diamond ring. The other was a former 271 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 3: girlfriend who also kind of moved in and just stayed. 272 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 3: And they really took control of his life in many 273 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 3: ways as he deteriorated mentally and physically as the age, 274 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 3: and I was very surprised to see how close they 275 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 3: came to taking over the whole media empire and the fortune. 276 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 3: There was a supposedly irrevocable trust that made sure that 277 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 3: this was going to descend to his previous wife and 278 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 3: to their children, not that all that they had the 279 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 3: best lawyers that could never be broken. But what I 280 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 3: came to realize is they gained influence as long as 281 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 3: he was a lot he controlled the truees. And for example, 282 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 3: that trust that he control could have sold these company 283 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 3: CBS Viacom, the cable channel's paramount studio, to these women 284 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 3: for essentially a nominal sum, and the trustees, because he 285 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 3: controlled that, would have approved that, and that would have 286 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 3: been the end of it. And they were consulting a 287 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 3: high powered New York lawyer, and they were well on 288 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 3: their way to that when very dramatic events in the book, 289 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 3: it all kind of blew up. But like I said 290 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 3: at one point, to be interesting to see at that 291 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 3: big moguls conference in some valley every year, if suddenly 292 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 3: these two women Sydney and Manuela were wanding around there 293 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 3: as media moguls. 294 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 1: Were they sort of explicit collaborators. 295 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 2: Sydney and Manuela. Well, they certainly formed some kind of 296 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 2: an alliance when it was convenient when the two of 297 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 2: them were both living in the mansion. They were aligned 298 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 2: with one another because their interests were aligned up until 299 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 2: the moment that they weren't. And what I mean by 300 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 2: that is the second it appeared that Sidney Holland, one 301 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 2: of the two in was going to get booted from 302 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 2: the mansion, or that she had come into Sumner's disfavor 303 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 2: because he had found out about a secret affair that 304 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 2: she was having with one of our other main characters 305 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 2: who we haven't even talked about yet, who is such 306 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 2: a trip, George Pilgrim. But the second that Manuela found 307 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 2: out that Sydney had fallen into Sumner's bad graces, she 308 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 2: started plotting to basically oustrf. I guess you could say 309 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 2: that that alliance was over the second it didn't favor Manuela. 310 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, But to say they were collaborating, they definitely were. 311 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 3: Again another surprising thing that we report in the book. 312 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 3: They siphoned off over one hundred and fifty million dollars, 313 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 3: which almost all of which they have kept, And there 314 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 3: was one afternoon where they cut off all communications from 315 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 3: Sumner to the outside world as usual lawyer and then 316 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 3: he proceeded to wire ninety million dollars into their accounts. 317 00:16:55,800 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 3: Now to call that collaboration, They were orchestrating this, and 318 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:06,239 Speaker 3: they were moving on many fronts to enrich themselves and 319 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 3: gain even more influence over him. So I would say 320 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 3: if they were beyond collaborators in many cases in this endgame, 321 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 3: they were the masterminds of this at. 322 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: That stage of his life. Were they more caretakers than lovers. 323 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,879 Speaker 2: It's a little hard to know. It's sort of like 324 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 2: at various moments, based on a reporting, it appeared that 325 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 2: they were romantically involved. Manuela was certainly romantically involved at 326 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 2: one point, and then what would you say, Jim short 327 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 2: of transition to like house guest slashed caretaker slash companion. 328 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 2: But it just certainly seems like their roles might have 329 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 2: shifted over time, and they were also involved in bringing 330 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:47,120 Speaker 2: in other women to have more intimate relationships with Sumner 331 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 2: that perhaps they were not having. 332 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's very detailed testimony, and I will say we 333 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:57,120 Speaker 3: didn't put all of it in the grounds of taste, 334 00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 3: but yes, I think what happened is they we had 335 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 3: both been romantic glovers at one point, and then they 336 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 3: began bringing in other women that Sumner was fixated on 337 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 3: to administer shall we say, his sexual appetites. Now we're 338 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 3: talking about someone you know now well into his nineties. 339 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 3: And there was testimony about exactly what this entailed, and 340 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 3: there were limitations, shall we say, but that didn't stop 341 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,479 Speaker 3: them from trying, and they paid out a lot of 342 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 3: money to these women who would come in and try 343 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 3: to administer it to Somener's appetites. But I think by 344 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:41,360 Speaker 3: this point Sydney and Manuel themselves, perhaps by design, had 345 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 3: shifted these responsibilities to the women they were bringing in. 346 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 1: So here you have an aging billionaire who clearly is 347 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:52,880 Speaker 1: very smart. But to what extent do you think he's 348 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 1: aware that he's being isolated. I mean, at what point 349 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: does he rebell and say, no, you can't cut me 350 00:18:59,040 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: off from the world. 351 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:05,400 Speaker 3: Well, until the news of the affair very dramatically disrupted 352 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:12,920 Speaker 3: that relationship, he seemed either unwilling or incapable of breaking 353 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 3: those ties, even though it's clear, or the best we 354 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 3: can tell, he was growing increasingly unhappy. I mean, the 355 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,399 Speaker 3: staff and the nurses would report that he would have 356 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 3: these episodes of crying, and he would beg Sydney and 357 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 3: Manuel for one thing or another, and they were quite 358 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,719 Speaker 3: harsh with him and in some cases sort of belittled 359 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 3: him in his condition, and his family would occasionally visit 360 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,679 Speaker 3: and get through, but the women kept reducing that and 361 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 3: cutting it off and then sometimes he'd cry and say, oh, 362 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 3: you know, to his daughter, I wish you know, I 363 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 3: wish you could stay, but you have to go because 364 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,159 Speaker 3: Sydney doesn't want you here. He seemed to enthralled to 365 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:59,160 Speaker 3: them until news of this affair, which caused him to irrupt. 366 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 3: And that was the one thing that he had always 367 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 3: said he wouldn't tolerate. And that did lead to a 368 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 3: rupture here, and that was the opening for share, his 369 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 3: daughter and his family members to re enter his life. 370 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 3: But until that point, and again, I think when Rachel 371 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 3: said this is a problem many families face, there's no 372 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 3: question that he was mentally and physically deteriorating at that 373 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 3: phase of his life. He'd alienated so many other people, 374 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 3: and he was very very dependent on these women. And 375 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 3: one of the things that they did to maintain their 376 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,679 Speaker 3: influence over him was threatened to leave him, and they 377 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 3: would say, you'll be all by yourself. No one else 378 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,359 Speaker 3: loves you. We're the only people who love you. And 379 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 3: they kept drumming that in and that is according to 380 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 3: the testimony that came out in some of the trials. 381 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 3: That's a classic element in cases of alleged elder views. 382 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 1: In that sense, you have people who become sort of 383 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 1: his surrogate family, cutting him off from his real family. 384 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, and then the chief executive of Viacom, which 385 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:03,920 Speaker 3: owned the Paramount Studio and the cable channels, was openly 386 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,920 Speaker 3: reported to be his so called surrogate's son. Again, having 387 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 3: completely alienated his real son, the chief executive there stepped 388 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 3: into that role. And the financial performance of the company 389 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 3: was horrible. It was terrible, and yet he absolutely remained 390 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 3: loyal to this surrogate son. And even after the women 391 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 3: were out and Cherry reasserted herself and was sort of saying, 392 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 3: you know, I think there's some problems here, and he said, 393 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:35,399 Speaker 3: don't tell me to fire him, because I'm not going 394 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 3: to do that. The story it took some very dramatic 395 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 3: events for that relationship to deteriorate. But again, I think 396 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 3: it shows this melding of business and personal emotions which 397 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 3: really began to influence the course of the business empire. 398 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: But the business empire remained pretty remarkable and up to 399 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:56,119 Speaker 1: his death. 400 00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 2: Yes it did, but certainly it was Jim. Wouldn't she 401 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,199 Speaker 2: say that they were not particularly prepared for some of 402 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 2: the forces that were overtaking the media industry more broadly, 403 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 2: and arguably they could have been had they had shall 404 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 2: we say, less distracted leadership force. 405 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,440 Speaker 3: Yes, I think that everyone would agree, including members of 406 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:18,400 Speaker 3: the Redstone family, now that they were very important, in 407 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 3: some cases, very healthy company. CBS was indisputably the number 408 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:26,439 Speaker 3: one rated broadcast network, but at a time when the 409 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 3: broadcast networks were beginning to lose their grip on the 410 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 3: entertainment landscape. And that was true of all almost all 411 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 3: the assets that the digital revolution, the rival of streaming 412 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 3: of the Netflix, Amazon, of Disney Plus getting underway. All 413 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 3: of this was happening while this fighting was going on, 414 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 3: and the boards were locked in combat, and I don't 415 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 3: know there's any question that they lost two or three 416 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 3: very critical years squabbling over the future of who was 417 00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 3: going to control all of this and in what form 418 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 3: that would take, while the world was dramatically changing, and 419 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:08,439 Speaker 3: now the paramount global empire is struggling to contend with 420 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 3: these giants that emerged in the entertainment space. 421 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: It struck me as kind of amazing that his family 422 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 1: starts with drive in theaters. If you think about the 423 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,879 Speaker 1: scale of change from there to hear and he rode 424 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: most of that wave until he finally became older. He didn't, 425 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 1: but there was a long stretch there where he seemed 426 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: to be a genius. 427 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:46,440 Speaker 3: He took credit and I don't know that anyone disputes 428 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 3: it for inventing the idea of the multiplex. They started 429 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 3: with two drive in movie theaters outside of Boston, and 430 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 3: the advantage of that was they were in suburban locations 431 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:03,880 Speaker 3: readily accessible by auto, unrelatively inexpensive land as opposed to say, 432 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 3: the downtown traditional marquee movie theaters. So he had the 433 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:13,879 Speaker 3: idea of turning those into the standalone brick and mortar 434 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 3: theaters where you had many films showing at once, and that, 435 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 3: of course became a very very successful model for movie 436 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,120 Speaker 3: distribution spread all over the country. So that was clearly 437 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 3: a brilliant breakthrough, and he was obsessed with the business. 438 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 3: He knew the box office numbers from memory at like 439 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 3: every theater in their chain, and like we call he's 440 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:40,159 Speaker 3: writing to the Davenport, Iowa newspaper when Jaws opens, they 441 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 3: hit theaters all over the country. He knew it all. 442 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:45,360 Speaker 3: He was very on top of the business. 443 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 1: So in a sense, the business had absorbed him, and 444 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: to some extent, that may explain why I had such 445 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: difficulty with personal relationships. 446 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,439 Speaker 3: Well, he was certainly obsessed with that and making the 447 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 3: money and making deals. So that really is what launched 448 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,439 Speaker 3: it from being a movie theater chain to owning the 449 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:11,400 Speaker 3: content creation. And he participated in the junk bond revolution. 450 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 3: He made bids for other companies. That's how he got CBS, 451 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,720 Speaker 3: That's how he got Viacom, and then in many ways, 452 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 3: the crown jewel that he cared about the most was 453 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 3: Paramount Pictures, and he got into a bidding war with 454 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:30,719 Speaker 3: Barry Diller. Barry Diller was very, very successful media executive 455 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,639 Speaker 3: started the Fox Network years ago, had emerged as and 456 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:40,159 Speaker 3: he's still a brilliant successful media executive today. But Sumner 457 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:44,479 Speaker 3: Resident beat him in the bidding for Paramount, and that 458 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 3: was a triumph that really was in some ways the 459 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,439 Speaker 3: high point of his dealmaking life. But it also was 460 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 3: the path to Hollywood. And Sumner was seventy six by 461 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,399 Speaker 3: the time he finally put this empire together and he 462 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 3: moved to Hollywood, so he was already kind of getting 463 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 3: up there, maybe a little late to be arriving on 464 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 3: the Hollywood scene, but that move to Beverly Hills seemed 465 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:13,160 Speaker 3: to mark a very significant turning point in his life 466 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 3: where he was no longer just ruthfully focusing on his business. 467 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,440 Speaker 3: But he got divorced. He had an second wife, he 468 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 3: got rid of her. He started seeing all these women. 469 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 3: You know, it is kind of a cliche, but he 470 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 3: got a taste of the glamor and the prestige and 471 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:32,679 Speaker 3: the excitement of the movie business in Hollywood, and it 472 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 3: was a turning point in his life, and not one 473 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 3: for the better. 474 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: Now, as I understand that his daughter, Sherry has ended 475 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: up with most of the empire, would that be an 476 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 1: accurate Stevemen, Yes, what happens to her brother? 477 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 2: Her brother has been living on a ranch in Colorado 478 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 2: for years now, and he had a falling out with 479 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 2: his father when he felt that his father was truncating 480 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 2: this a bit, but essentially felt that his father was 481 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 2: giving Jerry too much power and control over the family business. 482 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 1: Right. 483 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:05,639 Speaker 2: They didn't speak for how many years, Jim did? They 484 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:07,400 Speaker 2: not speak for like decades? I want to say. 485 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, he didn't go to his father's funeral, didn't. 486 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:12,639 Speaker 2: Go to his father's funeral, wanted nothing to do with 487 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:16,120 Speaker 2: the business after that, and he is absent from this story. 488 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,360 Speaker 2: Basically from the time that our story starts, Sumner had 489 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 2: described Philippe Dlmond, as Jim said, as a surrogate son. 490 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,199 Speaker 2: One can only imagine how that made his real son feel, 491 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:29,160 Speaker 2: to the extent that his real son was even paying 492 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,160 Speaker 2: attention anymore to his father's business. 493 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,119 Speaker 3: One of the diabolical things that I think Sunder did 494 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 3: was to pit his children against each other and to 495 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 3: favor one and the other, which, by the way, you 496 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,640 Speaker 3: see very much in the Succession drama also on TV 497 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 3: happens in there. But this went back and forth, and 498 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 3: of course, naturally it did create tensions and resentments between 499 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:55,440 Speaker 3: brother and sister, who are not in contact either anymore. 500 00:27:55,760 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 3: But there is an interesting wrinkle in the story where granddaughter, 501 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:06,920 Speaker 3: his son, Brent's daughter did surface in the story and 502 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 3: aligned herself with the two women who had moved in 503 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:16,160 Speaker 3: with Sumner against Sherry in that wing of the family. 504 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 3: So those resentments built her down to the next generation 505 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,920 Speaker 3: and has led to more tension and trouble, and her 506 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,640 Speaker 3: bet on the two women did not pay off, obviously, 507 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 3: when they were ejected, she went with them, and there's 508 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 3: still bad blood at that level of the family. 509 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 1: This was Brent's daughter. 510 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 3: Brent's daughter is. 511 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 1: It does yet to be interestingly complex. 512 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, and there's some incredible scenes that are like kind 513 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 3: of right out of succession, where there'd be these birthday 514 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 3: parties you can only imagine, like the two women were 515 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 3: hosting first dated his ninetieth and his ninety first is 516 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:56,239 Speaker 3: ninety second, and they would invite the family members, and 517 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 3: then there's these family feuds break out at the table 518 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 3: Sunder's birthday party where the two women are the unofficial hostesses. 519 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 3: We call this a book unscripted because it's true. But 520 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 3: you couldn't make this up, you know, if this was fiction, 521 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 3: nobody would believe it. 522 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 1: Does Brent get a portion of the money anyway, even 523 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 1: though he's on a ranch in Colorado. 524 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 3: He sold his entire interest in the family enterprise for 525 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 3: I think it was two hundred and fifty million dollars, 526 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 3: which of course is a lot of money and I 527 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 3: think has enabled him to live. 528 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: That's a pretty big consolation prize. 529 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 3: And this was many years ago. By the day, I'm 530 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 3: sure it's grown. By today's standards, it would even more. 531 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 3: Although that really was pretty small percentage of the total value. 532 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 3: I mean this empire, I mean Sumner himself. I think 533 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 3: his fortune probably was estimated by Forbes four billion dollars 534 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 3: his personal fortune, and that the empire's you know, worth 535 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 3: was above ten billion at its peak. Now it's lower. 536 00:29:57,840 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 3: So the two hundred and fifty million, it's a lot. 537 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 3: It was a relatively small amount. At one point, Cherry 538 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 3: was negotiating to sell her part or about a billion. 539 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 3: That all fell through for reasons that are clear in 540 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 3: the book. 541 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: So she was forced to accept the four billion because 542 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: she couldn't negotiate the one billion. 543 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 3: Well, that deal fell through, so she kept her interest, 544 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 3: She kept her ownership stake, which was twenty percent, and 545 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:25,479 Speaker 3: then when her father died, she gained control of the 546 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 3: trust and the family company that owned the underlying assets. 547 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 3: So she now has her father's interests passed to her 548 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 3: and her family members. 549 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: An amazing story. Now there was one other person you 550 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 1: had mentioned. 551 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 2: George George Pilgrim. 552 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 1: Yes, what's the deal with him? 553 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 2: George Pilgrim seems like he is straight out of Central 554 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 2: casting if you read this book. I mean he still 555 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 2: has these chiseled features from when he was a soap 556 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 2: opera star. He was an aspiring actor. He never quite 557 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 2: got to the A list, but he certainly had a 558 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 2: bunch of credits to his name. He was very good looking, 559 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 2: and he was running around town in La He ends 560 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 2: up running some kind of a scheme. I'm trying to 561 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 2: remember exactly what he went to prison for. I think 562 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 2: it was a combination of male fraud and possibly wire 563 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 2: fraud as well. So he ends up in prison. He's 564 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 2: out of prison, and he ends up romantically involved, somewhat 565 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 2: unexpectedly with Sydney Holland, one of these two women who 566 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 2: ends up living with Sumner, and he proceeds to have 567 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 2: this really secret, torrid affair with him. She'll take the 568 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 2: company jet and fly out to Sedona, where he lives. 569 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 2: They'd make passionate love, and then she'd fly back before 570 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 2: Sumner went to sleep. So he was none the wiser 571 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 2: and George Pilgrim he thinks that he's in love with 572 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 2: this woman, they're going to get married, and he ends 573 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 2: up being there undoing. He's basically the butterfly that flaps 574 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 2: its wings and causes its tsunami halfway around the world 575 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 2: because when he finds out that Sydney is actually involved 576 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,720 Speaker 2: more than she's represented with some no red Stone. He 577 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 2: goes berserk and he gives an interview to Vanity Fair 578 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 2: where he basically spills the beans. He says, I've been 579 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 2: involved with Sydney, and when Sumner finds out about that, 580 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 2: well that gets the ball rolling to get Sydney kicked 581 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 2: out of the mansion and then Manuela out of the 582 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 2: mansion and ultimately serves up Cherry Redstone a victory of 583 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 2: getting back into her father's life. 584 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 1: So he's start of the character who's dropped in who 585 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 1: changes the whole story. 586 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 2: George was constantly telling us things that Jim and I 587 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 2: would think that, okay, well that's obviously not true, and 588 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 2: then we'd verify it, you know, we would be able 589 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 2: to confirm it in some way. And Jim has a 590 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 2: great story about how George took over the story. 591 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 3: Basically, well, yeah, you know, we'd actually started writing the book. 592 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 3: We're working on it, and Rachel, it's calling me from Sedona, 593 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 3: Arizona with tales of George. And this was some of 594 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 3: these calls when we kept say, oh my god, I 595 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 3: can't believe this, can you believe this? This can't be true. 596 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 3: I was thinking, you know, we's Harry Moore, this it 597 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 3: was totally fascinating, and I was thinking to myself, I'm 598 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 3: kind of annoyed here because it feels like George is 599 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 3: trying to take over the story. When we started this, 600 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 3: we didn't even know George existed, and he was looming 601 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 3: larger and larger. And then one day I think I 602 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 3: woke up and I thought, you know, let George take 603 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 3: over the story, because it's so integral to the whole thing. 604 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 3: So the whole kind of the arc of the story change. 605 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 3: And we opened the book now with a scene in 606 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 3: which George and Sydney are meeting at the Peninsula Hotel 607 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 3: swimming pool in Beverly Hills. We threw out like a 608 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 3: lot that we'd already written and started over again, and amazingly, 609 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,520 Speaker 3: it clarified the story so much, and suddenly all the 610 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 3: pieces fell together and the arc of the tale unfolded 611 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 3: in a very I won't say easy, because writing's never easy, 612 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 3: but it seemed like it just was meant to happen 613 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 3: that way. 614 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 1: You, too, are so fun and the story you're telling 615 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: is so amazing. Have you begun to think possibly of 616 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 1: doing another book together? 617 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 2: I'm still trying to bask in the glory of this one. No. 618 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 2: I think if Jim and I had a great idea 619 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 2: that we could team up on, we'd love to do 620 00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 2: that again. But it all comes down to the idea. 621 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, I have to say. One of the reasons that's 622 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 3: worked out so well, I think is we have a 623 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 3: lot of common, but we're also obviously we're very different 624 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 3: where there's a different gender, a different age, and so 625 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 3: it's certainly especially in the reporting of this, it broke 626 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 3: down very nicely. Our background and skills were very complimentary 627 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,840 Speaker 3: working on this, and so another saga like that, you know, 628 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 3: would lend itself to that. I'd be perfectly happy to 629 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:24,320 Speaker 3: go at it again. 630 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,879 Speaker 1: Given the success of Succession, I wouldn't be at all 631 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,879 Speaker 1: shocked to see you two approach by Hollywood about a movie, 632 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 1: although I suspect maybe Paramount wouldn't do it. There are 633 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:37,279 Speaker 1: a lot of other folks who are going to read 634 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:39,839 Speaker 1: your book and think, Okay, this could be a real 635 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:40,799 Speaker 1: docu drama. 636 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,800 Speaker 3: Well, I think it was just announced that the streaming 637 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,839 Speaker 3: movie rights have been just acquired, so you were very 638 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:49,320 Speaker 3: excited about that. 639 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 1: That's great. I want to thank you. This has been 640 00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:55,120 Speaker 1: one of the most interesting and fun podcasts that we've done, 641 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 1: and literally in the last couple of days, folks all 642 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 1: around me have been talking about Succession and saying how 643 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,839 Speaker 1: I have to watch it, And now I can tell them, yes, 644 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 1: and they have to listen to this podcast and buy 645 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 1: your book because it's the real thing, not just fiction. 646 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 1: James and Rachel, I really want to thank you for 647 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 1: joining me. We're going to have a link to your 648 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: book on our show page. Everybody who's heard this, nos, 649 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:19,799 Speaker 1: it's fascinating. You've done an amazing job. And I now 650 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,360 Speaker 1: have to tell literally half the folks on our team 651 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 1: are watching Succession, so I'm going to tell them all 652 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,520 Speaker 1: they now have a homework assignment and they've got to 653 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,319 Speaker 1: go to the real thing to back up the fictional thing. 654 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 1: But thank you very much for being with us. 655 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,759 Speaker 3: Well, thank you, thank you so much. 656 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest James B. Stewart and Rachel Abrams. 657 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:43,240 Speaker 1: You can get a link to buy their new book 658 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,920 Speaker 1: on Scripted on our show page at Newtsworld dot com. 659 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 1: News World is produced by Ginglid three sixty and iHeartMedia. 660 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Guernsey Sloan and our researcher is 661 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,920 Speaker 1: Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show, Who's created by 662 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 1: Steve Penley. Special things to the team at Gingrid three sixty. 663 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 1: If you've been enjoying newts World, I hope you'll go 664 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,320 Speaker 1: to Apple Podcasts and both rate us with five stars 665 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 1: and give us a review so others can learn what 666 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 1: it's all about. Right now, listeners of Neutrold can sign 667 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 1: up for my three free weekly columns at gingrichthree sixty 668 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: dot com slash newsletter. I'm new Gingrich. This is neut World.