WEBVTT - Judging Sam: The Hail Mary That Wasn’t 0:00:15.316 --> 0:00:23.916 Pushkin. Welcome to Judging Sam, the trial of Sam Bankman Freed. 0:00:24.036 --> 0:00:27.876 I'm Michael Lewis. We're recording this on Tuesday evening, Halloween, 0:00:28.116 --> 0:00:31.116 October the thirty first, and we're finally in the home stretch. 0:00:32.116 --> 0:00:34.716 The prosecution finished their cross examination of Sam today and 0:00:34.756 --> 0:00:37.196 then the defense followed up with a redirect and then 0:00:37.236 --> 0:00:41.716 everybody rested. Tomorrow we'll start closing arguments. Lydia Jean, you 0:00:41.756 --> 0:00:45.516 waited outside the courthouse for nearly seven hours last night. 0:00:46.036 --> 0:00:46.756 What was that like? 0:00:48.596 --> 0:00:51.916 Honestly, I feel embarrassed that I did that, especially because 0:00:51.956 --> 0:00:54.636 there was no need because people were arriving at six 0:00:54.676 --> 0:00:56.716 am and able to get into the courthouse. Fine, but 0:00:56.836 --> 0:00:58.596 I got scared from yesterday. 0:00:59.156 --> 0:01:01.436 Well, the market turned right. It was so interesting to 0:01:01.436 --> 0:01:04.796 hear people talk there this etiquette that nobody divulged what 0:01:04.956 --> 0:01:08.356 time they got there because the night the night before, 0:01:08.636 --> 0:01:10.276 because it is going to cause people to get there 0:01:10.316 --> 0:01:13.076 even earlier the next day. Yeah. I've been this creep 0:01:13.156 --> 0:01:15.436 to the point where two days ago the first guy 0:01:15.476 --> 0:01:17.156 shows up at like eleven o'clock at night. 0:01:17.356 --> 0:01:19.436 Yeah, I feel like I've done every hour I've done 0:01:19.636 --> 0:01:21.516 at this point, I've done two. I've done three, I've 0:01:21.516 --> 0:01:25.916 done four. I always thought I've never really considered part 0:01:25.916 --> 0:01:26.876 of my day before. 0:01:27.556 --> 0:01:29.276 So you got there, you said one in the morning 0:01:29.556 --> 0:01:32.196 to fifteen. I think two fifteen. You got there to fifteen, 0:01:32.236 --> 0:01:35.636 And how many people were ahead of you? Thirteen? But 0:01:36.236 --> 0:01:37.876 at six in the morning you could still get a. 0:01:37.876 --> 0:01:40.196 Spot in the cause twenty one people can usually get in, 0:01:40.236 --> 0:01:42.196 and I think the twenty first person arrived at like 0:01:42.236 --> 0:01:43.036 six thirty am. 0:01:43.676 --> 0:01:45.956 So I was in the overflow room for the first 0:01:45.956 --> 0:01:48.836 half of the day anyway, with people. I was surrounded 0:01:48.836 --> 0:01:51.196 by people who'd foresworn in the morning line, so that 0:01:51.556 --> 0:01:56.556 wasn't worth it and they didn't care anymore. It round sick. Yeah, 0:01:56.916 --> 0:01:58.756 this is no way to lead a life. And there 0:01:58.796 --> 0:02:00.436 was all that kind of stuff going on in the 0:02:00.596 --> 0:02:03.556 in the overflow room, but there were I don't know 0:02:03.836 --> 0:02:06.396 eighty people there, ninety people there, it was. There was 0:02:06.436 --> 0:02:09.636 a crowd still, So give this a brief summary of 0:02:09.676 --> 0:02:10.436 what happened today. 0:02:11.196 --> 0:02:15.156 Yeah, So the prosecution finished questioning Sam, and I'd say 0:02:15.276 --> 0:02:18.836 it wasn't too different from yesterday where he kept saying 0:02:18.836 --> 0:02:22.516 that he didn't remember things. Then the defense did to redirect, 0:02:23.236 --> 0:02:25.796 and then they rested, and then the prosecution decided not 0:02:25.836 --> 0:02:26.996 to do a rebuttal. 0:02:27.436 --> 0:02:29.116 And then what happened for the back end of the day. 0:02:30.156 --> 0:02:33.756 Then there was it's called a charging conference, which is 0:02:33.796 --> 0:02:38.716 when the lawyers and the judge talked about what instructions 0:02:38.756 --> 0:02:41.116 the jury should get about each of about the charges, 0:02:41.396 --> 0:02:43.916 so basically what they're supposed to consider when they're considering 0:02:44.276 --> 0:02:44.956 Sam's case. 0:02:45.436 --> 0:02:46.476 And did they finish with that? 0:02:47.036 --> 0:02:47.796 They did, yes? 0:02:48.396 --> 0:02:50.396 And what did they did you were you able to 0:02:50.436 --> 0:02:51.396 hear what they were saying? 0:02:52.396 --> 0:02:55.516 Basically, the judge is going to read to the jury 0:02:55.596 --> 0:03:00.396 this sixty page document that explains every single charge and 0:03:01.036 --> 0:03:03.476 how they need to think about that charge. And they 0:03:03.516 --> 0:03:06.956 went through the sixty page document pretty much line by line, 0:03:07.276 --> 0:03:09.756 and it was everything from fixing typo was like talking 0:03:09.796 --> 0:03:12.516 about like whether a sentence should be in the subjunctive 0:03:12.596 --> 0:03:17.596 or not, which they actually did disagree about, to more 0:03:18.436 --> 0:03:19.836 substantial things as well. 0:03:20.036 --> 0:03:23.196 So what did you sense was there were the bones 0:03:23.236 --> 0:03:27.076 of contention between the defense and either the judge or 0:03:27.116 --> 0:03:27.756 the prosecution. 0:03:28.116 --> 0:03:29.916 It was pretty much what you would expect. For instance, 0:03:29.956 --> 0:03:34.276 the prosecution wanted to have a clause that said conscious avoidance, 0:03:34.356 --> 0:03:38.116 so basically the idea of purposefully not knowing something. If 0:03:38.116 --> 0:03:41.916 you're purposefully not knowing, it doesn't make you not guilty 0:03:41.956 --> 0:03:42.676 of the thing like. 0:03:43.716 --> 0:03:46.756 Skipping the meeting where you're talking about the bug and 0:03:46.756 --> 0:03:48.476 how to fix the bug exactly. 0:03:48.516 --> 0:03:51.956 And then the defense said that they don't want conscious 0:03:52.116 --> 0:03:54.436 avoidance to be one of the charges. 0:03:55.276 --> 0:03:58.636 Gotcha, What did you make of Sam on the stand? 0:03:58.836 --> 0:04:02.596 Did he seem that he had shifted his strategy at all? No? 0:04:02.756 --> 0:04:05.316 I think it was still it was just a daze 0:04:05.316 --> 0:04:07.596 of I don't remember, I don't remember, I don't remember. 0:04:08.436 --> 0:04:11.516 Yeah, I ever seen anybody not remember so many memorable things? 0:04:12.436 --> 0:04:14.276 Well, yeah, well that's because he had so much more 0:04:14.316 --> 0:04:16.636 to lose by remembering, you know what I mean, Like 0:04:16.876 --> 0:04:19.876 nothing that he would remember could actually help him that much, 0:04:20.596 --> 0:04:23.796 and things that he said could actually hurt him. So 0:04:23.956 --> 0:04:26.556 probably his lawyer said it was a safer strategy to 0:04:26.596 --> 0:04:29.596 just say he doesn't remember, because that way he can't 0:04:29.596 --> 0:04:31.876 get caught for lying on the stand, which could add 0:04:31.916 --> 0:04:32.516 extra time. 0:04:33.436 --> 0:04:36.676 Yeah, that part of it was kind of unsatisfying. I 0:04:36.676 --> 0:04:38.996 thought that what did you think of the redirect? The 0:04:39.076 --> 0:04:42.276 redirect to me is very satisfying because he finally will 0:04:42.316 --> 0:04:45.276 talk and sort of explain stuff, and a lot of 0:04:45.316 --> 0:04:47.076 what you know, and a lot of what he's explaining 0:04:47.156 --> 0:04:50.076 makes sense. The frustration with the courtroom is neither side 0:04:50.196 --> 0:04:52.996 is actually operating in the spirit of honesty. They're both 0:04:53.036 --> 0:04:55.476 trying to make a case and so taking stuff out 0:04:55.516 --> 0:04:58.236 of context and blowing stuff up and making it mean 0:04:58.276 --> 0:05:01.156 something different than it actually meant back when it was happening, 0:05:01.596 --> 0:05:04.756 and it was I find it kind of a relief 0:05:04.916 --> 0:05:08.316 to let him go a little bit, let him explain. 0:05:09.236 --> 0:05:19.116 Judging Sam will be right back. Welcome back to Judging Sam. 0:05:19.556 --> 0:05:21.156 The trial of Sam Bangman freed. 0:05:21.636 --> 0:05:23.196 You told me at lunch that you learned I think 0:05:23.196 --> 0:05:24.596 you said you learned two things today. 0:05:24.676 --> 0:05:27.076 Right, We're now at the end of the testimony, and 0:05:27.116 --> 0:05:29.316 I have a long list of things that I'm surprised 0:05:29.356 --> 0:05:32.156 I didn't learn more about. You know, I thought the 0:05:32.156 --> 0:05:34.036 trial was going to clear some stuff up for me 0:05:34.076 --> 0:05:37.436 that it did that. It just didn't today. You know, 0:05:37.516 --> 0:05:40.196 one thing that was interesting to me. They gave us 0:05:40.196 --> 0:05:43.236 a glimpse of a memo that Caroline had written to Sam. 0:05:43.876 --> 0:05:46.716 And most of the random stuff was very very positive 0:05:46.716 --> 0:05:48.996 stuff like oh, we made ten billion dollars this quarter 0:05:49.076 --> 0:05:51.476 or on FTT or whatever it was. But they had. 0:05:51.556 --> 0:05:54.716 It was. It was the moment they took the loss 0:05:55.036 --> 0:05:58.956 for what was essentially a theft of the exchange. It 0:05:58.996 --> 0:06:02.276 was a gaming of the risk engine using a couple 0:06:02.316 --> 0:06:06.796 of obscure crypto tokens. I thought the loss from that 0:06:08.076 --> 0:06:10.756 episode was six million, and she listed it at eight 0:06:10.796 --> 0:06:12.996 hundred and fifty million, and that was you know, I've 0:06:12.996 --> 0:06:15.716 been humbering for. There's still money that's not accounted for. 0:06:16.076 --> 0:06:18.156 If you listen to the prosecution case from the point 0:06:18.156 --> 0:06:19.956 of view of a jury who's sort of like only 0:06:19.956 --> 0:06:23.476 half paying attention, you might come away with the belief that, oh, 0:06:23.636 --> 0:06:29.556 Sam Bankman Freed stole eleven billion dollars in customer money 0:06:29.596 --> 0:06:32.876 and spent it all. Kept using that term who you 0:06:32.916 --> 0:06:35.476 spent it? You spent it, You spent Yes, you spent 0:06:35.716 --> 0:06:38.276 very little of it. Most of it is either there 0:06:38.916 --> 0:06:42.236 or invested in things that actually have some value, some 0:06:42.276 --> 0:06:44.076 of some things that have some great value. 0:06:44.196 --> 0:06:46.396 Because you know, in the judge's eyes, right, it's like 0:06:46.676 --> 0:06:48.836 if you stole money and then you win the lottery, 0:06:48.876 --> 0:06:51.316 you're luckily found it. It doesn't really impact that you 0:06:51.356 --> 0:06:53.676 stole the money. 0:06:53.796 --> 0:06:56.596 Yeah, but that's not what happened here. The bankruptcy. People 0:06:56.636 --> 0:07:01.236 have collected seven point three billion dollars of liquid assets 0:07:00.516 --> 0:07:04.156 that seem to have been stuffed in various exchanges and 0:07:04.236 --> 0:07:06.836 bank accounts. And there was a bunch of liquid assets 0:07:06.916 --> 0:07:09.996 still on hand when they collapsed, and he made a 0:07:10.036 --> 0:07:13.396 big bunch of venture capital investments. And so I was 0:07:13.396 --> 0:07:15.716 surprised I didn't find its way in. They still the 0:07:15.756 --> 0:07:18.036 opportunity to call witnesses, for example, in the rebuttal, I 0:07:18.036 --> 0:07:18.956 didn't know who to recall. 0:07:19.276 --> 0:07:21.316 Yeah, and they said they were going to call some yesterday. 0:07:21.716 --> 0:07:24.356 There were four or five characters. Five characters from the 0:07:24.356 --> 0:07:28.116 book got principal characters in the book. And in particular, 0:07:28.916 --> 0:07:33.716 I thought, you know, Ramnick Aurora was basically on a 0:07:33.756 --> 0:07:35.476 plane to come here. He thought he was on he 0:07:35.516 --> 0:07:37.076 thought he was on the witness stand. He thought he 0:07:37.116 --> 0:07:39.196 had a date, I think at one point, and. 0:07:39.236 --> 0:07:41.756 Romni Ga is one of He was a pretty high 0:07:41.796 --> 0:07:43.276 up FTX person, race. 0:07:43.516 --> 0:07:47.236 Very high up. I kind of half thought that a 0:07:47.276 --> 0:07:50.196 couple of things from other things from the book were 0:07:50.196 --> 0:07:54.036 going to make their way in via the prosecution. And 0:07:54.076 --> 0:07:56.836 we found out that the book was apparently disallowed or something. 0:07:57.876 --> 0:07:59.836 I got a note today that the Wall Street Journal 0:07:59.956 --> 0:08:03.036 I guess it's in the transcripts reported that the defense 0:08:03.116 --> 0:08:05.596 tried to introduce a passage from the book, and we're 0:08:05.596 --> 0:08:06.596 told they couldn't do it. 0:08:07.116 --> 0:08:09.796 Yeah, was doing a side panel, so we couldn't hear 0:08:09.796 --> 0:08:10.356 it in quirt. 0:08:10.636 --> 0:08:12.556 If you'd ask me what was going to be introduced 0:08:12.556 --> 0:08:14.876 from the book? And I thought, how could it not be? 0:08:16.156 --> 0:08:21.876 Sam telling me when I asked him what he would 0:08:21.916 --> 0:08:25.236 have said if someone had directly, precisely asked him the question, 0:08:25.996 --> 0:08:29.756 is Alameda subjected to the same risk engine as every 0:08:29.796 --> 0:08:33.116 other trader on on FTX? And he says, I would 0:08:33.116 --> 0:08:35.196 have made a word, Salid, or I would have or 0:08:35.316 --> 0:08:37.076 I have found some way to answer a different question. 0:08:37.476 --> 0:08:39.796 I just thought, wow, so damning that that would Yeah, 0:08:40.276 --> 0:08:42.756 how did that and not find its way in? But 0:08:42.796 --> 0:08:44.516 it didn't. It just shows you that, like telling a 0:08:44.556 --> 0:08:46.596 story in a courtroom is different from telling the story 0:08:47.356 --> 0:08:48.796 as you would as a as a writer. 0:08:49.156 --> 0:08:51.556 What was it like to hear because moments that you 0:08:51.716 --> 0:08:54.596 spent with Sam came up in court right Like they 0:08:54.596 --> 0:08:57.116 asked him about when he took a private debt to 0:08:57.156 --> 0:08:58.196 a Super Bowl game. 0:08:58.916 --> 0:09:00.636 I remember that it was a private plane because I 0:09:00.636 --> 0:09:01.716 was on the plane. 0:09:02.636 --> 0:09:03.876 You don't not recall. 0:09:04.196 --> 0:09:06.276 I don't not recall, and in fact I can. I 0:09:06.356 --> 0:09:09.596 can give you blow by a blow of being on 0:09:09.636 --> 0:09:12.116 the plane. Kind of. I mostly remember who was on 0:09:12.156 --> 0:09:16.356 the plane. I remember conversations from the super Bowl. I mean, 0:09:16.476 --> 0:09:18.756 I could kind of understand when he says, I don't 0:09:18.796 --> 0:09:21.556 remember exactly what I said to this journalist or that journalist. 0:09:21.756 --> 0:09:24.156 That I understand. You know, it's like one interview after 0:09:24.156 --> 0:09:27.876 another you just forget. But stuff you do like that 0:09:27.996 --> 0:09:31.356 seems stranger. Like he was asked if he had dinner 0:09:31.396 --> 0:09:34.636 with Bill Clinton in the Prime Minister of the Bahamas, 0:09:35.236 --> 0:09:37.556 and he kind of basically tried to say no, and 0:09:37.596 --> 0:09:39.636 then he said he wasn't sure of Yeah, he said. 0:09:39.476 --> 0:09:41.636 He didn't know if it was a dinner, but it 0:09:41.716 --> 0:09:43.716 was an evening gathering. 0:09:44.356 --> 0:09:47.596 It was during his crypto Bahamas thing last April. And 0:09:47.796 --> 0:09:49.476 it was a moment because they showed a video of 0:09:49.516 --> 0:09:52.116 them all together, and that was kind of a cool 0:09:52.116 --> 0:09:56.396 moment because Clinton appointed Lewis Kaplan to the bench. I mean, 0:09:56.556 --> 0:09:59.516 so scout Kaplan was seeing his benefactor up there on 0:09:59.556 --> 0:10:01.756 the screen. But I did, you know, I did have 0:10:01.796 --> 0:10:08.876 a thought about the prosecution's strategy of trying to make 0:10:08.876 --> 0:10:13.196 the case that Sam was trying to basically bribe the 0:10:13.996 --> 0:10:15.236 Prime Minister of the Bahamas. 0:10:15.356 --> 0:10:17.156 Yeah, I wanted to bring that up with you because 0:10:17.196 --> 0:10:19.516 they also mentioned that he said he was going to 0:10:19.836 --> 0:10:21.716 pay off the national debt of the Bahamas, which is 0:10:21.756 --> 0:10:23.276 also in your book, and. 0:10:23.196 --> 0:10:26.636 I've never seen it anywhere else. That was so not 0:10:27.676 --> 0:10:31.076 in the beginning, an attempt to bribe the Prime Minister 0:10:31.156 --> 0:10:33.836 of the Bahamas. It was an idea that it was 0:10:33.876 --> 0:10:36.676 one of the many bonkers ideas Sam had, including like 0:10:36.716 --> 0:10:38.836 paying Trump five billion dollars not to run for president, 0:10:39.316 --> 0:10:42.436 that he had immediately upon arrival in the Bahamas when 0:10:42.436 --> 0:10:45.556 they first moved the company there days after, because he 0:10:45.636 --> 0:10:49.556 was he was having trouble getting his whole company to 0:10:49.636 --> 0:10:51.436 move from Hong Kong, and especially a lot of the 0:10:51.516 --> 0:10:54.476 Chinese people staff said there's no place to put their 0:10:54.516 --> 0:10:57.676 kids in school. The roads had botholes. You're complaining about the. 0:10:57.596 --> 0:11:01.596 Country, and he was, so he was like, I'll fix 0:11:01.636 --> 0:11:02.196 the country. 0:11:02.476 --> 0:11:04.996 I'll fix the country. Yes, that's exactly what it was. 0:11:05.196 --> 0:11:06.916 He thought. He didn't know what he was thinking. Maybe 0:11:06.916 --> 0:11:08.876 I'll have to do this in order to attract the 0:11:08.916 --> 0:11:11.356 ten to come work in the Bahamas. So that was 0:11:11.396 --> 0:11:14.236 the original notion. But anyway, the thought I had about 0:11:14.236 --> 0:11:17.076 that was, no matter what happens in this trial, and 0:11:17.156 --> 0:11:20.876 it seems unlikely that anything's going to happen but a conviction, 0:11:21.196 --> 0:11:24.036 they're supposed to be a second trial in March or 0:11:24.116 --> 0:11:27.476 April with these other charges that the Bahamas government had 0:11:27.476 --> 0:11:30.716 not agreed to, and that they have to agree to 0:11:31.036 --> 0:11:33.916 allow them to proceed with the charges in order to 0:11:33.956 --> 0:11:37.196 bring them to even have that trial. And it seemed 0:11:37.196 --> 0:11:40.476 a strange strategy, indeed, to antagonize the Prime Minister of 0:11:40.476 --> 0:11:44.076 the Bahamas before you're asking the Bahamas permission to do 0:11:44.116 --> 0:11:47.116 this all over again. That surprised me a bit, but 0:11:47.196 --> 0:11:51.356 it also made me wonder if the prosecutions basically decided 0:11:51.396 --> 0:11:53.036 that they're going to win so big and Sam's going 0:11:53.076 --> 0:11:54.676 to go away for so many years that there's never 0:11:54.676 --> 0:11:55.676 going to be a second trial. 0:11:56.076 --> 0:11:57.796 That's what I've That's kind of what I've assumed. 0:11:58.356 --> 0:12:01.036 The second trial would be very interesting because a lot 0:12:01.036 --> 0:12:04.196 of American politicians who will be implicated, and that that 0:12:04.556 --> 0:12:10.156 could be a show. One of Sam's advisors suggested to 0:12:10.196 --> 0:12:14.916 me a weird possibility that if Sam is convicted and 0:12:14.996 --> 0:12:20.356 remanded to the Metropolitan Detention Center, awaiting sentencing from the judge. 0:12:20.836 --> 0:12:24.036 That the judge could actually wait to sentence him for 0:12:24.876 --> 0:12:27.956 you know, many many months and allow the second trial 0:12:27.996 --> 0:12:30.876 to happen before he even sentenced him for the first. 0:12:32.556 --> 0:12:35.756 Just actually, yeah, because sentencing can normally take a while. 0:12:36.236 --> 0:12:38.836 Yeah, And so that is it's conceived. It's gonna be 0:12:38.876 --> 0:12:42.476 up to captain. But it's conceivable that Katherlin could will 0:12:42.516 --> 0:12:45.156 into being the second trial, which apparently would be in 0:12:45.196 --> 0:12:46.076 his courtroom too. 0:12:46.516 --> 0:12:48.396 Oh my god, really, we could all renate. 0:12:49.316 --> 0:12:53.076 There are things that made an impression on me. The 0:12:53.116 --> 0:12:56.756 cross examination over the two days. It surprised me that Sam, 0:12:56.796 --> 0:12:58.796 if Sam was going to testify, and he did as 0:12:58.796 --> 0:13:01.516 he did, if you're going to scheme up a hail Mary, 0:13:01.996 --> 0:13:04.436 you've got to throw the pass. And I felt he 0:13:04.476 --> 0:13:07.396 didn't throw the pass. I felt like that they're not answering, 0:13:07.476 --> 0:13:10.036 kind of choking it off and not responding to the 0:13:10.036 --> 0:13:15.036 prosecution made him look evasive to the jury, that his 0:13:15.156 --> 0:13:18.916 one one hope was to be radically open. I thought, 0:13:19.676 --> 0:13:22.916 but that might be just stupid. But I thought, if 0:13:22.956 --> 0:13:23.516 you're going to if. 0:13:23.476 --> 0:13:26.276 You're gonna go through, you're already in that world though 0:13:26.356 --> 0:13:27.676 right of like, that's right. 0:13:27.556 --> 0:13:31.076 That's right, that's that's right. The other thing is it's 0:13:31.196 --> 0:13:34.036 started lurking in the background because it was it's like 0:13:34.316 --> 0:13:35.956 a buzz in my head when I'm listening to the 0:13:35.956 --> 0:13:39.836 prosecutors because their line, their insistent line, is you stole 0:13:39.916 --> 0:13:43.796 the money, you stole the money. The sin, through my eyes, 0:13:44.196 --> 0:13:47.436 is that he risks the money without permission. He borrowed 0:13:47.436 --> 0:13:50.036 it and put it at risk without asking anybody's permission, 0:13:50.636 --> 0:13:55.076 and he put people at risk without their consent, which 0:13:55.116 --> 0:13:58.036 is something he does pretty naturally. He does it in 0:13:58.156 --> 0:14:03.116 his romantic life, he does it in his relationship with 0:14:03.156 --> 0:14:05.996 his employees. Some of the characters were particularly upset that 0:14:05.996 --> 0:14:07.636 he put them in a position of lying for him. 0:14:07.916 --> 0:14:09.836 I always felt like the way they were coming at 0:14:09.916 --> 0:14:13.716 him wasn't capturing the spirit of the Yeah, I hear you. 0:14:13.756 --> 0:14:16.476 I think so. Soon had one time where she said, 0:14:16.876 --> 0:14:19.236 you know, would you say that you're someone who would 0:14:19.236 --> 0:14:23.276 take a huge risk and risk a big loss or something? Right, 0:14:24.116 --> 0:14:26.036 the one time she kind of got at it, and 0:14:26.076 --> 0:14:29.116 when she said that that's something maybe like I actually 0:14:29.156 --> 0:14:33.996 think maybe she does understand same makeman freed. Yeah, but 0:14:34.116 --> 0:14:38.436 maybe the story of him as a gambler, isn't It's 0:14:38.436 --> 0:14:42.276 a slightly more complicated story than just him as a thief, right, right, 0:14:42.396 --> 0:14:44.396 You have a little bit more sympathy for a gambler 0:14:44.436 --> 0:14:47.276 than a crook, right, And he was both, so she 0:14:47.316 --> 0:14:49.476 could choose a story that worked best. 0:14:49.756 --> 0:14:54.276 And while it's very hard for a person to contrive 0:14:54.996 --> 0:14:59.436 a self defense after a simple theft, if I steal 0:14:59.476 --> 0:15:02.196 your person run off with it, it's totally understandable what 0:15:02.276 --> 0:15:06.596 I did. But if I put you at risk because 0:15:06.596 --> 0:15:07.956 I've misjudged the risk. 0:15:07.836 --> 0:15:11.436 And isn't that the gambler mindset, like being forever optimistic 0:15:11.516 --> 0:15:15.916 and always believing in yourself and that it will work out, 0:15:15.956 --> 0:15:19.436 which is why you can always continue to take risks well. 0:15:19.436 --> 0:15:23.876 And the added twist being that it's conceivable that it 0:15:23.916 --> 0:15:28.836 could work out, It could work after so that's even weirder, right, 0:15:28.956 --> 0:15:33.436 So it's conceivable. The money is there and more because 0:15:33.636 --> 0:15:34.796 this stake in anthropic. 0:15:34.916 --> 0:15:36.756 But at the end of the day, like even if 0:15:36.796 --> 0:15:39.636 you're a good gambler, doesn't it you know, doesn't it 0:15:39.676 --> 0:15:42.676 always come does anyone just always win in the end? 0:15:42.796 --> 0:15:44.716 Like it was always going to come crushing down? 0:15:45.276 --> 0:15:47.236 Yeah, eventually, And the way this place was run, it 0:15:47.276 --> 0:15:49.876 was chaos. Something was going to happen. Judging Sam will 0:15:49.876 --> 0:15:59.796 be right back. So I have a question for you, 0:15:59.996 --> 0:16:02.756 because maybe this isn't an odd thing about this trial, 0:16:02.756 --> 0:16:04.236 but it seems like an odd thing to me about 0:16:04.236 --> 0:16:08.116 this trial that a lot of the facts were agreed upon, 0:16:08.316 --> 0:16:10.396 like the fact fact that the money was in the 0:16:10.436 --> 0:16:13.156 wrong place from the start, and that the reason the 0:16:13.156 --> 0:16:15.476 money was in the wrong place was this risk engine 0:16:15.556 --> 0:16:19.036 exemption and this this FIAT at account where they were 0:16:19.076 --> 0:16:22.556 taking deposits directly in Alameda rather than taking them into FTX. 0:16:23.236 --> 0:16:26.396 When they find out that the money's not just in 0:16:26.436 --> 0:16:30.036 the wrong place, but that it's at risk, So when 0:16:30.076 --> 0:16:34.436 they know, and then what they do about what they know? 0:16:35.316 --> 0:16:37.316 That was sort of what was at issue during this 0:16:37.356 --> 0:16:40.876 whole trial, and the prosecutors never really go back before 0:16:40.996 --> 0:16:43.916 May of last year in their in their argument. 0:16:43.596 --> 0:16:46.556 About this right briefly but mostly are. 0:16:46.596 --> 0:16:49.676 So my question is, having listened to this whole trial, 0:16:50.116 --> 0:16:54.476 when do you think Sam Bankman Freed knew that this 0:16:54.556 --> 0:16:57.076 huge sum of money was in the wrong place And 0:16:57.116 --> 0:16:58.916 when did you think he was really worried it was 0:16:58.916 --> 0:16:59.156 that right? 0:16:59.236 --> 0:17:01.436 I don't think that mattered to him I. 0:17:01.356 --> 0:17:03.516 Think that's true. It didn't even occur to him. It's 0:17:03.556 --> 0:17:05.956 just a big post. Yeah, okay, so that's that's which 0:17:05.996 --> 0:17:08.316 is so I agree with that. Then. So second and 0:17:08.356 --> 0:17:10.476 the second part of this is when do you think 0:17:11.716 --> 0:17:16.756 he was actually alarmed and being devious about it? 0:17:16.836 --> 0:17:19.556 Okay? I think it's weird because in all of the 0:17:19.596 --> 0:17:25.796 conversations that even Adam Yddia, Caroline Gary, and Nishad recount, 0:17:26.156 --> 0:17:28.756 he's always acting a bit weird in those conversations, Like 0:17:28.796 --> 0:17:31.836 even in their stories, he's not acting like a man 0:17:31.876 --> 0:17:35.996 who's like, we're in a terrible situation. You know, even 0:17:36.036 --> 0:17:38.916 in their stories he's kind of saying, but our nett 0:17:39.036 --> 0:17:43.036 acid value is okay. Like he sounds always a little 0:17:43.076 --> 0:17:45.396 bit worried, but no one ever describes him as panicked, 0:17:45.436 --> 0:17:48.276 even you know, after everything has crashed, when he's talking 0:17:48.316 --> 0:17:51.836 to can Sun about asking him for legal you know, 0:17:52.356 --> 0:17:53.876 legal reason for why the money could be in the 0:17:53.876 --> 0:17:56.876 wrong place, he doesn't even sound that worried. Right, His 0:17:57.036 --> 0:17:59.956 reactions don't really ever seem to match what they you 0:18:00.036 --> 0:18:01.996 think they should be, I guess, and all these stories 0:18:02.116 --> 0:18:03.956 his reactions read odd to me. 0:18:04.516 --> 0:18:06.316 Do you find him an interesting character? Still? 0:18:06.796 --> 0:18:09.396 He just reminds me of like those guys at the 0:18:09.436 --> 0:18:11.396 lunch table who are really good at math and science 0:18:12.716 --> 0:18:14.756 talk forever and you're just like, none of this is 0:18:14.756 --> 0:18:19.996 actually relevant to my life. And then but I wouldn't 0:18:19.996 --> 0:18:22.756 say that. I feel like I completely understand him. And 0:18:22.796 --> 0:18:25.036 maybe that is partly why I woke up at two 0:18:25.036 --> 0:18:28.276 ten this morning and slept on, you know, a poncho 0:18:28.676 --> 0:18:32.796 and my laptop is because I did want to see 0:18:32.836 --> 0:18:34.836 him talk, because I was hoping that if I could 0:18:34.876 --> 0:18:38.716 see him. I think I do understand him. 0:18:38.836 --> 0:18:40.996 So, but you do feel imm elusive. You don't feel 0:18:41.036 --> 0:18:42.276 like you completely understand it. 0:18:43.316 --> 0:18:46.116 I think you're right. I think if I felt like 0:18:46.196 --> 0:18:48.996 I could confidently say I understand him, I wouldn't have 0:18:49.076 --> 0:18:52.756 been so keen on feeling like I had to see him. 0:18:53.916 --> 0:18:58.316 The second question is does it surprise you now you've 0:18:58.356 --> 0:19:01.636 heard this, all the evidence, you've heard all the testimony, 0:19:02.436 --> 0:19:06.276 that no one identified the problem like that. 0:19:06.796 --> 0:19:09.916 You know, people were worried about FTX and elom relationship, 0:19:09.956 --> 0:19:13.356 but that no one was No one suggested that actually 0:19:13.396 --> 0:19:16.196 Alameda was just taking and using ftx's money. 0:19:16.556 --> 0:19:19.076 Yeah, I think there's a reason no one called uh 0:19:19.156 --> 0:19:21.836 huh it didn't make It didn't make any sense. Like, 0:19:21.876 --> 0:19:23.996 it wouldn't make a lot of sense for Alameda to, 0:19:24.956 --> 0:19:28.076 I don't know, get preferential access to customers trading data 0:19:28.156 --> 0:19:32.716 and do on FTX what high frequency traders do on 0:19:32.716 --> 0:19:36.396 the New York stocky stage and it's legal there. That 0:19:36.396 --> 0:19:40.396 would make a lot of sense. It was so dumb 0:19:40.516 --> 0:19:43.156 for the all for these principles. His wealth was all 0:19:43.236 --> 0:19:46.756 tied up in just the success of FTX. To allow 0:19:46.876 --> 0:19:50.516 Alameda to do that, you don't guess it. It's not 0:19:50.596 --> 0:19:54.956 an obvious crime to commit. The obvious thing to do 0:19:55.796 --> 0:19:59.036 end of twenty nineteen, beginning twenty twenty, when FTX is 0:19:59.076 --> 0:20:04.476 just exploding, like in a good way, is do everything 0:20:04.676 --> 0:20:09.836 keep FTX safe. That's the obvious thing to do, and 0:20:10.716 --> 0:20:13.916 like either get rid of Alameda or do this. Alameda 0:20:13.996 --> 0:20:16.476 is is in the beginning very helpful. But when the 0:20:16.476 --> 0:20:19.436 minute Alomed is not really necessary to make markets on FTX, 0:20:20.396 --> 0:20:26.236 the minute it becomes unimportant there, you do everything to 0:20:26.276 --> 0:20:28.796 distance it. You can get rid of it. You do 0:20:28.876 --> 0:20:31.076 everything to preserve FTX because it's a source of such 0:20:31.236 --> 0:20:36.316 vast wealth. You don't jeopardize it by making weird venture 0:20:36.316 --> 0:20:40.916 capital investments with customers money in Alameda, it's just dumb. 0:20:41.476 --> 0:20:44.036 Why that's I mean, I have been wondering why. 0:20:44.356 --> 0:20:47.596 Actually, yeah, the trial, the trial has not asked answered 0:20:47.596 --> 0:20:50.156