Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to What Future. I'm your host, Joshua Topolski,
Speaker 1: and I am back in front of a real microphone.
Speaker 1: Times are good. Things are feeling really good right now,
Speaker 1: liras to sound better to you. Yeah, what's your new
Speaker 1: gadget you were talking about? Oh? Yeah, I was just
Speaker 1: telling Lyra before. Maybe we should give people a peek
Speaker 1: behind the curtains of the production of the show. You know,
Speaker 1: we we have to record all the time because very
Speaker 1: often we're having a great conversation that's super interesting and
Speaker 1: I'm rambling about something and then it's not recorded. So
Speaker 1: just prior to this, I started to talk about something
Speaker 1: and then you were like, start recording. You didn't yell
Speaker 1: at me. I mean that makes it sound like you're cruel,
Speaker 1: but you're not. You're actually I was very nice for anybody, know,
Speaker 1: even though she was made fun of my audio in
Speaker 1: the last episode. Okay, I'll tell you the story of
Speaker 1: how I came to purchase my new gadget. Are you
Speaker 1: familiar with Instagram? Have you ever used the service? It's
Speaker 1: a photo photo sharing service owned by Facebook. Well, the
Speaker 1: company is called Metta now formerly known as Facebook. Anyhow,
Speaker 1: I was on Instagram which I'm increasingly on because I
Speaker 1: don't want to look at Twitter. Uh, and I have
Speaker 1: to say, like, I'm that seems fine. So far, it
Speaker 1: seems fine to not look at Twitter. I was on
Speaker 1: Instagram and I was looking at there's a tab on
Speaker 1: Instagram which I don't know how many people interact with it,
Speaker 1: but I want to say that the symbol for the
Speaker 1: tab is maybe what is it? Is it a Is
Speaker 1: it a magnifying glass? Perhaps? Is it a what is it?
Speaker 1: Is it a magnifying glass? Yeah? That sounds right. It
Speaker 1: used to be called the Discover the Discover tab, yes, correct.
Speaker 1: So so every so often when I feel like I've
Speaker 1: exhausted my Instagram sort of scrolling or story watching, I
Speaker 1: will go to the to the Discover tab just to
Speaker 1: see what's going on. Now, I have to say, their
Speaker 1: curation of things that I might be interested in is
Speaker 1: second to none. So um. A little while ago, I
Speaker 1: started following this musician whose name is Fred Again. Do
Speaker 1: you have ever heard of Fred Again? Fred Again is
Speaker 1: a British guy. He looks like a classic white British clubgoer.
Speaker 1: I can't describe it any better than that. He just
Speaker 1: looks like he just looks like a classic British guy
Speaker 1: who's into raves from train spotting. You know those people
Speaker 1: are heroin attics. This is like a look um, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he has like a short like a closely cropped haircut
Speaker 1: maybe some I don't think he's any facial hair, but
Speaker 1: he kind of maybe always has a little bit of
Speaker 1: a five o'clock shadow. I think he wears like a
Speaker 1: vest all the time for some reason. Like I don't
Speaker 1: know if I've ever seen him not wearing a vest
Speaker 1: in any of the photos or videos I've seen. Anyhow,
Speaker 1: Fred Again makes like kind of euphoric pop house music.
Speaker 1: He's fairly well known, he's fairly popular, He's got like
Speaker 1: a following. It also sounds like rave music from the
Speaker 1: Nine Ties, which I used to produce, So you know,
Speaker 1: for me, it's it's like catnet. So I started following
Speaker 1: the Instagram, I started listening to some of his music,
Speaker 1: and and then I went to the Discover tab one
Speaker 1: day and there was a video of Fred Again talking
Speaker 1: to Zane Low. Also like Fred Again. His whole vibe
Speaker 1: is like he's really possy, Like everything's like super positive,
Speaker 1: like loving smiles, hugs, like it's all like very it's
Speaker 1: very plur. Do you know what plur is. Plur is
Speaker 1: the thing that people used to put on rave flyers
Speaker 1: in the nineties and early two thousands. It stood for peace, love,
Speaker 1: unity in respect. It was like an ethos by which
Speaker 1: the raver lived by. So there's a video of Fred
Speaker 1: Again and Zane Low and Fred again is playing this
Speaker 1: instrument and it's it's something made by a company called
Speaker 1: Native Instruments. It's called the Machine. Plus this is like
Speaker 1: a more advanced version of it. I mean, I assume
Speaker 1: you've seen the types of samplers that like in hip
Speaker 1: hop and in rap, like if like you think of
Speaker 1: like how do like rap producers work. It is like
Speaker 1: the thing that you think of iconic. So it's like
Speaker 1: kind of that. But it also has like two screens
Speaker 1: on it, and it has like all these buttons like
Speaker 1: in knobs and stuff. It's not much bigger than a laptop, okay,
Speaker 1: And the entire thing is like a self contained like
Speaker 1: music production device. And in the video Fred again, I'm
Speaker 1: assuming his first name is Fred, but I can't be sure.
Speaker 1: Fred is like talking about how this thing had completely
Speaker 1: changed the way he makes music, and I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's interesting because this guy's music is pretty interesting and
Speaker 1: what he was playing on it was pretty interesting, and
Speaker 1: I had never really explored the device at all anyhow,
Speaker 1: So I ordered one, like just rant just was like,
Speaker 1: I'm going to check this out. I want to. I
Speaker 1: want to play with it, and and I have. I've
Speaker 1: been messing around with and in fact, I was late
Speaker 1: to this recording because I was messing around with it.
Speaker 1: And it's so fascinating to me because it's a completely
Speaker 1: tactile experience. It is a completely new experience for me.
Speaker 1: I don't know how it works. Actually, so most technology,
Speaker 1: I have a very very deep understanding of how it
Speaker 1: func and this is a thing that's like, I mean,
Speaker 1: for sure, if I put it in front of anybody
Speaker 1: who has not produced music, they would be completely just
Speaker 1: dumbfounded by its functionality. And even as a person who
Speaker 1: has used very complex software and hardware to make music,
Speaker 1: it's still like it's kind of vexine to me in
Speaker 1: a good way, though, in like a fun way, like
Speaker 1: I don't know how it works, and so I'm experimenting
Speaker 1: and learning things. But the thing that's really interesting about
Speaker 1: it to me is that it is completely offline right,
Speaker 1: I mean it is. It does connect to Wi Fi.
Speaker 1: You can download sounds and stuff like that, but it
Speaker 1: is not a computer. Now, I'm used to making music
Speaker 1: on a computer. When you're on a laptop, you're still
Speaker 1: like on the Internet or whatever. You might get a notification,
Speaker 1: you might decide to like look at something on Amazon,
Speaker 1: or you know, research something. This is like you can't
Speaker 1: really do anything else when you're using it, and it
Speaker 1: is just unbelievably pleasant to be doing something creative that
Speaker 1: has no material connection to any of the other things
Speaker 1: that exists in the digital realm. Like it is just
Speaker 1: it is essentially air gapped from the stuff that would
Speaker 1: be otherwise distracting to you. And um and yeah, and
Speaker 1: I've been like I've had it for a couple of days,
Speaker 1: and I think it's like I find it like endlessly
Speaker 1: fascinating and and extremely good at what it does, with
Speaker 1: like you know, having learned probably one percent of all
Speaker 1: of its functions. Anyhow, Native Instruments, by the way, not
Speaker 1: sponsoring yet, but I would love to do some reads
Speaker 1: for them about how much I love the machine. Plus
Speaker 1: the other thing that I've been doing in the same
Speaker 1: set of days that I've been messing with this is
Speaker 1: that we have recently purchased several landline telephones for the house.
Speaker 1: Laura has been buying old telephones, like from the sixties
Speaker 1: and seventies and eighties, and god, they sound so good
Speaker 1: first off when you use them. But secondly, there's something
Speaker 1: really amazing about taking a call and being like locked
Speaker 1: to a place and like literally not receiving a notification
Speaker 1: while you're in the middle of it, or you know,
Speaker 1: having somebody like, you know, face time you or whatever.
Speaker 1: Why are you getting landlines? Well, you know, that's a
Speaker 1: great question. We were telling Zelda what a land line
Speaker 1: was like a few years ago, and she was like,
Speaker 1: could we get one? And I think we thought it
Speaker 1: would be novel and fun. And she probably has used
Speaker 1: the landline more than anybody. She likes to make calls
Speaker 1: on the phone, So that was the original reason. And
Speaker 1: then and then Laura, I don't know, recently got this
Speaker 1: idea that she wanted one in her office, and um,
Speaker 1: she has an office here at our house. And and
Speaker 1: then you know, now we have one in the kitchen
Speaker 1: and they're just springing up all over the place, like
Speaker 1: the kitchen landline the kitchen. Yeah, we got like the
Speaker 1: iconic kitchen. It's like hangs on the wall. We actually
Speaker 1: got this like bright orange phone. It's like hangs on
Speaker 1: the wall. It's got like the curly you know, cable
Speaker 1: connecting the handset. I mean, Laura had told me the
Speaker 1: story about how one time, you know, her mother like
Speaker 1: you know, accidentally like let go of the phone and
Speaker 1: had it pulled all the way across like two rooms
Speaker 1: and it went like flying out of her hand and
Speaker 1: it like whipped into her brother's head or something, you know,
Speaker 1: which is a real thing that used to happen with
Speaker 1: these phones. Yeah, I mean that was the whole thing.
Speaker 1: It was how far could you go to have your
Speaker 1: private twelve year old conversation exactly? Well, now I think
Speaker 1: we're for Christmas. We're gonna get one for Zelda's room
Speaker 1: because she's been asking for one. Like we're gonna have
Speaker 1: like a full house of of landlines. It's going to
Speaker 1: be like But this is why I feel like it's
Speaker 1: connected to my interest in this music making gadget, which
Speaker 1: is obviously it's very very futuristic, but it's self contained
Speaker 1: in a way that I don't think that enough things
Speaker 1: feel these days. And you know, I think that's increasingly
Speaker 1: important to people for their sanity, Like a little sliver
Speaker 1: of of all of of these things are like trying
Speaker 1: to find a way back to some form of living
Speaker 1: that feels more sane and familiar. I might argue cozy,
Speaker 1: some style of living where you have like much closer connections.
Speaker 1: Like the phone is a great example of a thing
Speaker 1: where you know, who do you call on the phone
Speaker 1: If you're not prying calling, you know you're calling like
Speaker 1: your friends and family. You had to memorize their phone numbers.
Speaker 1: There was an infinite amount of people you could call.
Speaker 1: Laura reminded me that you used to be able to
Speaker 1: call an operator, and you would talk to an operator
Speaker 1: like a person. She said that sometimes, like when her
Speaker 1: parents didn't pick her up from school or something and
Speaker 1: she had no money, she would call the operator and
Speaker 1: like kind of beg the operator to put her through
Speaker 1: to her parents, and they would do it. Sometimes like
Speaker 1: on a pay phone. Oh, we would do the what
Speaker 1: is that? I was that like where it tells you
Speaker 1: that you've got to collect call coming through or whatever.
Speaker 1: We had a baby, it's a boy. What does that mean?
Speaker 1: That was the commercial We had a baby, It's a boy.
Speaker 1: Is that because that code? Will you accept this collect
Speaker 1: call from we had a baby? It's a boy? I see.
Speaker 1: So it's you just get the message out in that
Speaker 1: manner and I'm ready to get picked up, right. I see.
Speaker 1: You'd stay it as fast as possible and then they
Speaker 1: would just get that like a page. Well that's a
Speaker 1: little more advanced. That's probably ten years later, you know,
Speaker 1: but still to your point, and perhaps to my point,
Speaker 1: I do think we're kind of seeking out at this
Speaker 1: point as the world around us has become unfathomably and
Speaker 1: uncontrollably large. And I have definitely touched on this in
Speaker 1: other episodes. I do think we're kind of seeking out
Speaker 1: like more of what would be considered a traditional. Well,
Speaker 1: the word traditional is loaded. You can't say traditional anymore
Speaker 1: because that's like Nazi stuff basically. But like if you
Speaker 1: say a traditional now, people are like, oh, that's coded language,
Speaker 1: meaning like white Aryan family or whatever. I think maybe
Speaker 1: I'm wrong, but I feel like it is. But you know,
Speaker 1: just sort of like scale down way of living where
Speaker 1: your world is much smaller and your communities are much smaller,
Speaker 1: and you have sane real world interactions with people and anyhow,
Speaker 1: and thinking about all this site, I thought about the
Speaker 1: writer and podcaster and author and Helen Peterson, who has
Speaker 1: written a about well, She's written a lot about a
Speaker 1: lot of things, but definitely has kind of developed this
Speaker 1: community around her work and around talking about sort of
Speaker 1: modern life and all of its pitfalls and traps and
Speaker 1: sort of out of wax scale. She's written a lot
Speaker 1: about burnout, which is a topic that is sort of
Speaker 1: the byproduct of a world where our jobs are our
Speaker 1: entire personality. Anyhow, So I thought we should talk to
Speaker 1: Anne Helen and talk about what's happening to the world
Speaker 1: right now and how we how we get back to sanity.
Speaker 1: So here's my conversation with Anne Helen Peterson. Hello, we
Speaker 1: have someone digging out our old step dick tank and
Speaker 1: replacing it with a new septic tank in our backyard,
Speaker 1: just the normal today nightmare scenario. As a person with
Speaker 1: a septic tank, I can tell you that I dread
Speaker 1: the day was the only matter of time. Isn't it
Speaker 1: that they're going to be like, you need to get
Speaker 1: a new septic tank? Our is this from? Like? And
Speaker 1: well our house built nine so we're right behind you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so our house is built in nineteen o four and
Speaker 1: was like a fishing camp and then they slowly turned
Speaker 1: it into a habitable place. But the septic is very
Speaker 1: very old, and when there are metal septic tanks, they
Speaker 1: rest out and they fail. And and we didn't know
Speaker 1: when we bought the house, like there was no red
Speaker 1: flag next to septic tank as metal. We're just like, oh, really,
Speaker 1: you didn't have like you had an inspection. Yeah, we
Speaker 1: had an inspection, but they weren't like bad, bad bad.
Speaker 1: We actually had an older inspection because you know, it
Speaker 1: was during the pandemic. So it was like, oh, this
Speaker 1: house sold two years ago, just use this old inspection.
Speaker 1: They were like, it's fine, we just looked at this
Speaker 1: two years ago. Yeah, like everyone was waving inspections then too. Anyway, No, no,
Speaker 1: I mean, you don't write. You don't want to go
Speaker 1: in and get COVID, you know, looking at the septics
Speaker 1: tank at somebody's house, So just go whatever. It's fine
Speaker 1: it is. We didn't know. It was a big deal
Speaker 1: and it didn't fail. This is actually very in fact,
Speaker 1: what I'm about to tell you, it's very germane to
Speaker 1: many years of your output about like burnout and also
Speaker 1: like obviously working from home and all this, you know whatever,
Speaker 1: But like, okay, did you know we just talked to
Speaker 1: our septic people here, who like, God, this is so disgusting,
Speaker 1: by the way, but here's the thing. The rate at
Speaker 1: which they need to pump out septic tanks has gone
Speaker 1: up like tenfold over the pandemic. Like they were like, yeah,
Speaker 1: like everybody shiftied all the time now and the septic
Speaker 1: tanks are getting full in like they're like we used
Speaker 1: to come every it's like two years or something. Now
Speaker 1: they're coming like every six months or whatever. It's like,
Speaker 1: this is the most disgusting. Anyhow, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 1: This is exactly I don't know if this is what
Speaker 1: you were planning on talking about. I love this. I
Speaker 1: love this whole. I like everything is happening right now,
Speaker 1: and I never I've read enough scene that you're all
Speaker 1: of your new content is basically septic related. I mean,
Speaker 1: your entire new world of output is all about septic stuff.
Speaker 1: So I think you're an expert in just a couple
Speaker 1: of things septic tanks and work life better. Uh And Okay,
Speaker 1: thank you first off for joining the podcast and doing this.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. You're a person who, like I
Speaker 1: know you from online. I feel like we've interacted at
Speaker 1: some point probably, but we don't actually know each other where,
Speaker 1: just like a person on the internet. Yeah. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: it's like person on the internet knowing person like particular currency. Uh. Now,
Speaker 1: we're not here to talk about Twitter, but it is
Speaker 1: kind of in the news, and I have a question
Speaker 1: specifically about you and Twitter that I'm sort of curious about.
Speaker 1: Correct me if I'm wrong, But I feel like I've
Speaker 1: seen this a few times that you like to crowdsource
Speaker 1: people on Twitter. You'll like ask them questions about stuff.
Speaker 1: And if Twitter goes away, which it seems like pretty
Speaker 1: possib able now, or maybe doesn't go away but becomes
Speaker 1: way less. I don't want to say cool, because I
Speaker 1: don't think it was ever exactly cool to be on
Speaker 1: But you know, do you have a backup plan for
Speaker 1: that kind of engagement, that kind of interaction, Like what
Speaker 1: happens to those kinds of activities for you? If like
Speaker 1: elat Musk makes it totally intolerable on Twitter, well, you know,
Speaker 1: the first place I started doing that was Facebook, because
Speaker 1: I started this Facebook page related to like an old
Speaker 1: word plus blog that I had called celebrity gassap academic
Speaker 1: style back in the late two thousand's, like two thousands seven.
Speaker 1: I'm just interrupt. Sorry, I hate to interrupt you, but
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do you have like a degree in celebrity.
Speaker 1: I have an actually PhD in the history of celebrity.
Speaker 1: So it's not right you're like a doctor of celebrities.
Speaker 1: So I have my PhDs and media studies because oftentimes
Speaker 1: people say, like those are the real thing. So it's
Speaker 1: in Media Studies University of Texas at Austin. I wrote
Speaker 1: my dissertation on the history of celebrity gassa, So it's
Speaker 1: really like a study of the way that start images
Speaker 1: were formed, sold, consumed, all that sort of thing. And
Speaker 1: that's what I started writing that that word press blog
Speaker 1: as I was studying for my comprehensive exams. It was
Speaker 1: bored out of my mind. Wanted some sort of like
Speaker 1: interaction with the outside world, and so I started writing
Speaker 1: this blog and then like in a hint of what
Speaker 1: it would come with my life, I know, did not
Speaker 1: ever think journalism was in the future. I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm also bored. What if I made a Facebook page
Speaker 1: for this to get even more engagement. And I ran
Speaker 1: that group. You know, it was people like it ran
Speaker 1: for a long time. Yeah, that's a lot of people. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then I noticed that like it also was getting
Speaker 1: hidden by Facebook all the time, you know, like it
Speaker 1: just and also, you know, everything that we all know
Speaker 1: to do with Facebook controversial was a controversial no no,
Speaker 1: no no. It was like people would join it and
Speaker 1: we have like clear moderation. And I just also got
Speaker 1: sick of like doing every single platform. So I think
Speaker 1: this is kind of a history that you'll see with
Speaker 1: people who like, oh it was on that platform. And
Speaker 1: then I've had more and more interesting conversations on Twitter,
Speaker 1: and I actually have seen over the course of the
Speaker 1: last couple of years, like I'm less interested in those
Speaker 1: responses on Twitter, in part because everyone is in that
Speaker 1: moment of what the podcasters Sarah Marshall calls like like
Speaker 1: if you're like I like poppy seed bagels, the responses
Speaker 1: are all like this is garlic eracer, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, Like it's just very combative, like how dare
Speaker 1: you think not like pose this question in this way?
Speaker 1: Very reactionary hair trigger even if they like you, I
Speaker 1: believe I completely understand. Have you been on Twitter for
Speaker 1: a long time. It's like when you open it, right,
Speaker 1: it's pretty bad news. Every time you look at it,
Speaker 1: you're like, yikes, like it's a word were why are
Speaker 1: we hanging out? It's like things are so bad in
Speaker 1: ways I didn't even realize. Yes, and I've moved. You're
Speaker 1: doing a lot more of it on Instagram because you
Speaker 1: can do the like box where people can fill in
Speaker 1: the question. So I'll put in a question there and
Speaker 1: then people can respond. That community there is like women,
Speaker 1: so it's it's filling this well, it's filling in a
Speaker 1: different niche. And then a lot of it too, happens
Speaker 1: on my newsletter for subscribers. There are these really rich
Speaker 1: and interesting conversations that we have in the comments and
Speaker 1: then also in the weekly threads, and then also in
Speaker 1: our discord, which is where I think a lot of
Speaker 1: the conversation is migrating right now from Twitter for people
Speaker 1: who are in good faith want to have conversations. Okay,
Speaker 1: so you've got sub stack, you've got a discord. Obviously,
Speaker 1: you still have the social stuff. You've got Instagram. It
Speaker 1: sounds exhausting like everything you just described not not to
Speaker 1: knock it, but no, it is it is. You know,
Speaker 1: I think that I am a person who likes chatting
Speaker 1: with other people online. Some people do not have that
Speaker 1: part of them that is not interesting to them. I've
Speaker 1: like chatting with people online. It just has felt so
Speaker 1: unfun for so long now, Like I mean, I remember
Speaker 1: like loving being online, Like I can remember the feeling,
Speaker 1: you know how talking about of just being like I'm
Speaker 1: surfing this is I'm like surfing the information. I'm like
Speaker 1: high fiving all my buds as I go along, you know,
Speaker 1: as I hit the waves or whatever. And it is
Speaker 1: so good. It is like the best day at the
Speaker 1: beach of all time every time I log on and
Speaker 1: and I can remember that palbably like for a long
Speaker 1: period of my life. But you know, like since like
Speaker 1: twenty somewhere around there, it started to get real maybe
Speaker 1: even earlier, honestly, just real bad. And now I feel
Speaker 1: like we're kind of at this strange Maybe I'm old,
Speaker 1: by the way, This is totally possible that I'm just
Speaker 1: an old guy. Yeah, Like I like chatting with people,
Speaker 1: but I haven't found a lot of people to chat
Speaker 1: with recently. Maybe this is the reason why I need
Speaker 1: to do a sub stack. I need to just go
Speaker 1: inside anybody who would subscribe to sub stack. But the
Speaker 1: problem sometimes in situations like that as you get like
Speaker 1: a bad echo chamber. So you really have to encourage
Speaker 1: conversation that's not just with you, right, um, And then
Speaker 1: it also takes moderation, and that's something that I think
Speaker 1: most platforms are unwilling to do. And also most participants
Speaker 1: are unwilling to do with each other and with themselves,
Speaker 1: Like they're just not willing to try to have a
Speaker 1: better conversation. They just want to like scream into the
Speaker 1: ether because there are a lot of things to scream about.
Speaker 1: You know, I have to do this work all the
Speaker 1: time in the threads and the comments like do not
Speaker 1: be butts to one another, like and don't be assholes,
Speaker 1: and there's a lot that goes into that. But let's
Speaker 1: try to keep this a good place on the internet.
Speaker 1: Like that's a constant refrain, right And you know, we
Speaker 1: have moderators in the discord because even like nice liberal
Speaker 1: people devolve into behaviors that are everybody could be an
Speaker 1: assholet yes, no, I mean nobody is like purely good.
Speaker 1: There's everybody has a dark side. Now, I think that's
Speaker 1: so interesting. Like I actually I was in a back
Speaker 1: and forth on Twitter about you know, I don't know whatever.
Speaker 1: We're talking to Tony Hale, who was at Twitter for
Speaker 1: a long time and trying to figure out their content,
Speaker 1: and anyway, we got into a conversation about like if
Speaker 1: you look at places like Reddit and you're talking about
Speaker 1: discord moderators, like you know, people human beings who are
Speaker 1: like one, they decide there want they want to be
Speaker 1: in a place for a very specific reason, not just randomly.
Speaker 1: And two you've got people who are there to make
Speaker 1: sure things stay on track or stay in a place
Speaker 1: that's somewhat reasonable for everybody. It really matters. And like
Speaker 1: I think that increasingly it just feels more like what
Speaker 1: would you do in a normal human situation, right, Like
Speaker 1: you wouldn't just let the party be completely open ended,
Speaker 1: like anybody could be invited to it, and even if
Speaker 1: somebody's a complete assholt the party, you just let them
Speaker 1: keep doing it. Right, there's some sense of ofly you
Speaker 1: just scale it down a little bit. If you make
Speaker 1: it about like Okay, it's this group of people in
Speaker 1: this place and there's rules, it's a becomes a lot
Speaker 1: more manageable. So maybe you've got the right solution here,
Speaker 1: And you know, it's it's hard to because it's not
Speaker 1: just like what can't you do? You know, like we
Speaker 1: have these whole community guidelines that we worked as a
Speaker 1: group to come up with. And it's not just like
Speaker 1: no turf is um, no bigotry like that stuff is
Speaker 1: easy to moderate. It's more like, how do we not
Speaker 1: make this like an incredibly white space even if the
Speaker 1: majority of the people who are there are white? Like,
Speaker 1: how do we descenter that? How do we not make
Speaker 1: it so incredibly us centric? What are the small things
Speaker 1: we can do to try to remind ourselves over and
Speaker 1: over again to try to like not just go with
Speaker 1: the status quo of how we already have conversations online.
Speaker 1: So it's hard, it's hardware, No, it is again, I'm
Speaker 1: saying that sounds like a lot of work. I'm like
Speaker 1: exhausted just hearing about it, just right. But here's the
Speaker 1: big thing is I don't have a company slack that
Speaker 1: I have to check into, so I'm not wasting my
Speaker 1: time pretending to work, right, which used to take up
Speaker 1: so much of my time. Now I actually work when
Speaker 1: I want to wear don't work when I don't want
Speaker 1: to work, and that frees up time to do the
Speaker 1: things that I actually want to do. Kind of sounds
Speaker 1: so so good now, I would say one of the
Speaker 1: things that you became very well known for is talking
Speaker 1: about burnout, which to me, everything you're saying makes me
Speaker 1: feel I'm like, I'm burning out just hearing about the discord,
Speaker 1: you know. But like, so you've written a lot about
Speaker 1: and talked a lot about a feeling of exhaustion, you know,
Speaker 1: sort of stretched thinness of this generation, Like, how do
Speaker 1: you avoid it with all the things that you have
Speaker 1: to personally be responsible for. Well, first of all, I
Speaker 1: think that one of the primary sources of burnout is
Speaker 1: lack of community, just generally, right, people who because they
Speaker 1: have been forced or feel like they have been forced
Speaker 1: to really dedicate themselves to working all of the time,
Speaker 1: and all of their mental energy goes into work, and
Speaker 1: they feel bad if they're dedicating any extra time to
Speaker 1: anything that isn't work. And then when they aren't working,
Speaker 1: they're so tired that the only thing they can do
Speaker 1: are like things that seem appealing but that aren't actually
Speaker 1: the things they want to do, like scrolling their phone forever. Right, Yes,
Speaker 1: that is a perfect example. It's like I'm doing it.
Speaker 1: It feels good, but is it good? Is it good?
Speaker 1: And I have had to spend a lot of time
Speaker 1: thinking about how do I mindfully like actually norrish community
Speaker 1: in my life that makes it so that I have
Speaker 1: things that I want to do besides working, and then
Speaker 1: also give me that time away from work that is
Speaker 1: really restorative and makes me feel like I have the
Speaker 1: safety net, right, like I have people, and so I've
Speaker 1: done that in my like in person life with choices
Speaker 1: about where we moved and like I don't have kids,
Speaker 1: but we take care of my friends kids twice a
Speaker 1: week after school, Like that is an important thing. Like yeah,
Speaker 1: it's basically like the fun part. That's what I was
Speaker 1: gonna say, Like that sounds like so much fun. I
Speaker 1: mean I don't know how old they are, but like
Speaker 1: kids are a blast their kindergarten in third grade. So
Speaker 1: I walk over pick them up from school. We like
Speaker 1: get to do the fun stuff and then right when
Speaker 1: they get cranky. It's like that's definitely yeah. I was
Speaker 1: gonna say, like definitely, Like it's like a babysitter mode.
Speaker 1: You're like, yeah, I had a blast of the kids,
Speaker 1: like give me my twenty bucks, I'm out of here.
Speaker 1: So I've done that in my real life in meaningful
Speaker 1: ways and then in the community that and it sounds corny,
Speaker 1: but it really is a community that we have in
Speaker 1: this discord, like and as a subscriber community, like the
Speaker 1: threads are hundreds to thousands of comments every week, Like
Speaker 1: it is about stuff that is really meaningful to people's lives.
Speaker 1: They are really seeking community. Twice a year, we raise
Speaker 1: between twenty and thirty dollars in mutual aid, Like this
Speaker 1: is a it's a real thing. And so when I'm
Speaker 1: participating in the community, Yes, there are those harder parts
Speaker 1: of like moderating and being like guys, stop being like
Speaker 1: so white bougie right now, or like whatever you know, um,
Speaker 1: But then it also is a source of community for
Speaker 1: me too. It's newshing. So if it ceased to feel
Speaker 1: like that, I think I would step away from it.
Speaker 1: But for me right now, like it doesn't feel overwhelming.
Speaker 1: It feels like there are people who are also taking
Speaker 1: labor off of my plate too, Like this is the
Speaker 1: reason that there are moderators who do this work for
Speaker 1: comp subscriptions, you know, like it feels important to them,
Speaker 1: you know, like Venomo the money. I could vent with
Speaker 1: the money, but all of them are in the position
Speaker 1: where they don't need extra money, so I'm not suggesting
Speaker 1: you should. It makes sense, like it's like, okay, this
Speaker 1: is a bad example maybe, but I'm like, you know,
Speaker 1: in the Mechanical Keyboards Reddit, it used to be pretty small.
Speaker 1: Actually now there's like a million people in it. But
Speaker 1: for sure the people who were investing time and energy
Speaker 1: into it were there to like make it. They wanted
Speaker 1: to make it a positive experience. And there's actually a
Speaker 1: lot of Reddit communities are not read it is in
Speaker 1: any way perfect, But they did figure out some basic
Speaker 1: stuff on the Internet, which is people really want to
Speaker 1: be part of, like to your point, a community, and
Speaker 1: when you're there, you invest send it in a way
Speaker 1: that when you're a part of it that you might
Speaker 1: not if it's like this kind of free floating anything
Speaker 1: goes space like a for instance, like a Twitter. Yes,
Speaker 1: so I get that. I get that. I mean, like
Speaker 1: any community that I'm a part of, and there are
Speaker 1: very few because I'm horrible loser, but there aren't a
Speaker 1: lot of places on the Internet that feel pleasant anymore.
Speaker 1: So maybe I'll have to join your discord and hang out.
Speaker 1: I mean, you should come and look. It's like it's
Speaker 1: an interesting place. There's like some thread that would make
Speaker 1: total sense in terms of like interests, Like I don't know,
Speaker 1: there's like a running thread that some people like that's
Speaker 1: the only place to hang out out is the running thread.
Speaker 1: They're like, I want to hang out with other people
Speaker 1: who run, who think about running this way, which is like,
Speaker 1: let's take a load of rest and also let's let's
Speaker 1: congratulate each other. But it's just like not people who
Speaker 1: run until they throw up. There, like people who run reasonably.
Speaker 1: They're not fast. Holes is the name for like a
Speaker 1: certain type of I've never heard that before, and I
Speaker 1: didn't realize this is that a lot of online spaces
Speaker 1: for running are incredibly toxics. So it's people who really
Speaker 1: some of that community. Yeah, yeah, really toxic. It's so
Speaker 1: funny how any online space for anything is toxic. It's
Speaker 1: like any Babies collectors forum. Actually it was extremely toxic
Speaker 1: and political turns out well, and you know, like the
Speaker 1: best example of this is like the knitting forums are
Speaker 1: incredibly toxic. I just saw something I don't know what
Speaker 1: it was. I was like randomly seeing something about letters
Speaker 1: to a knitting magazine about some people are really angry
Speaker 1: because they have like modern like knitting patterns in it.
Speaker 1: But then other people are like, well, I'm a young
Speaker 1: knitter and I think this is really cool that these
Speaker 1: are I was like, wow, this seems so contentious. People
Speaker 1: are always in a community. People are always going to
Speaker 1: like push back against different things no matter what. But
Speaker 1: if you can figure out, like, okay, how do we
Speaker 1: come to a consensus when we disagree about something like
Speaker 1: what does that look like? How do we how do
Speaker 1: we do that? Right? So, Okay, we've talked a lot
Speaker 1: about your many many online communities that you have to
Speaker 1: deal with, which actually sounds like you're doing very well with.
Speaker 1: So tell me about the podcast and tell me about
Speaker 1: the sub stack, because it feels like, you know, I
Speaker 1: think it would have been very easy for you, given
Speaker 1: that you have written so much and talked so much
Speaker 1: about this whole like culture burnout and like work life
Speaker 1: balance and stuff like that. Obviously, just to do more
Speaker 1: of that. But tell me about like the culture study
Speaker 1: world that you're in now or what you're trying to
Speaker 1: do with it. It is so obvious to me in
Speaker 1: hindsight that it should have been a sociologist, right, because
Speaker 1: I I really just I'm fascinated by the way that
Speaker 1: society works, how we set up different functions within our society,
Speaker 1: how we work within those functions. It's all that sort
Speaker 1: of thing, and media studies actually has a lot of
Speaker 1: overlap depending on the department that it's in with sociology.
Speaker 1: And I think like in my current work, I am
Speaker 1: really engaging in a lot of like basic sociological questions
Speaker 1: of like why is that thing the way that it
Speaker 1: is right? Like how did we arrange it that way?
Speaker 1: And who does it benefit? Who does it harm? But
Speaker 1: also like isn't this weird? Like making the things that
Speaker 1: we understand is the status quo kind of making them
Speaker 1: seem weird and questioning them and how they came to
Speaker 1: be right. And there's a couple of sociologists that I
Speaker 1: really am sometimes think about sociology is like reverse gaslighting,
Speaker 1: so being like, you know, it isn't it isn't normal,
Speaker 1: Like this is this is a construction the way that
Speaker 1: we've come to Wait, what is reverse Explain reverse gaslighting
Speaker 1: conceptually to me, because it sounds like something I should understand,
Speaker 1: but I can't grasp what that would be. Right, Okay,
Speaker 1: so let's talk about like mothering in America right now,
Speaker 1: where everyone's just like, yeah, it's hard, but you got this,
Speaker 1: like Mama, you got this, like like you're made for this,
Speaker 1: like you're going to get through it, you know, just
Speaker 1: like continual messages of support is that when you can
Speaker 1: do it all? You know, that's gaslighting that like you've
Speaker 1: got this, right, Like the reverse gaslighting is no, you
Speaker 1: don't have this, and here are all the reasons why
Speaker 1: you don't have it, like heure, all the ways that
Speaker 1: have been set up to make this incredibly hard for
Speaker 1: people trying to mother to parent in America today. So
Speaker 1: it's like breaking down the gaslighting to reveal the truth
Speaker 1: or like I mean, if we don't want to use
Speaker 1: the term gaslighting because I think sometimes people like stop
Speaker 1: listening when you hear that term. It's breaking down things
Speaker 1: that we have normalized, right right, and saying like, Okay,
Speaker 1: how did we come to normalize this? Why is it
Speaker 1: actually strange? And like who does it benefit when we
Speaker 1: normalize these things? Like there's always a critique of structures
Speaker 1: of power. I think inherent to sociology too. It's also
Speaker 1: just like everything is really interesting if you can just
Speaker 1: push a little bit more. And this is true. And
Speaker 1: the way that I think about celebrity the newsletter is
Speaker 1: called culture study is kind of a fun cultural studies,
Speaker 1: which is looking at things that sometimes people are like,
Speaker 1: there's nothing interesting here. It's just an artifactive pulp culture.
Speaker 1: It's just an artifact of material culture, just just the
Speaker 1: thing that is around us and saying, actually, there's a
Speaker 1: whole lot of interesting stuff to unpack here. So whether
Speaker 1: it's the construction of a celebrity or when I'm thinking
Speaker 1: through right now, is like what happened to the team Babysitter,
Speaker 1: Like there's a lot to unpack there. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: I personally would like to know. I'm fascinated by this
Speaker 1: question because so my daughters eight and for a while
Speaker 1: we were reading the Babysitters Club books. Yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: would imagine you've read, or at least you maybe revisiting
Speaker 1: for and it's like these girls are like thirteen or
Speaker 1: something or twelve, and they're like babysitting whole groups of kids.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, n Zelda was younger, you know, I
Speaker 1: couldn't imagine having like a thirteen year old over here
Speaker 1: to like babysitter and be like, okay, bye, we're going
Speaker 1: out for the day. I did that starting when I
Speaker 1: was twelve. I was one year old. Cool. Yeah, it's crazy. No.
Speaker 1: I talked to Laura about it all the time, and
Speaker 1: she's like, oh, yeah, I did that. Like me and
Speaker 1: my friend Emily would go over and we babysit these
Speaker 1: like three kids. And I'm like, that's nuts. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think we've learned a lot about I don't know,
Speaker 1: maybe we're wrong. I feel like in the seventies and
Speaker 1: in the eighties, people didn't know that much. No, I
Speaker 1: think it's actually okay to have a thirteen year old babysitter,
Speaker 1: especially now that we have cell votes. Act feel very nervous,
Speaker 1: like right, but that's because of like hyper parenting norms
Speaker 1: like and I'm not criticizing them, and they've just been
Speaker 1: really normalized. But we've changed our whole perspective on kids,
Speaker 1: like like you can't leave a child alone in a
Speaker 1: car even for like two minutes now, like the amount
Speaker 1: of time I spent in the car when my mom
Speaker 1: was going to the grocery store right now, Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: you just be they just be like you don't want
Speaker 1: to go to the store, like you're just gonna sit
Speaker 1: here and like and I used to do that all
Speaker 1: the time. But now if you leave your kids sit
Speaker 1: in the car, even if you're only got for like
Speaker 1: five minutes or ten minutes, you like you could literally
Speaker 1: be arrested for it. So I feel like there's one
Speaker 1: of these things. Yes, I agree, there's definitely an over
Speaker 1: do you say over parenting as that was the term used,
Speaker 1: or like hyper parenting ROMs, like just like you know,
Speaker 1: like a high intensity parenting, right, I don't feel that way,
Speaker 1: Like I don't feel like we're I mean, of course
Speaker 1: a person would say they don't feel like they're hyper
Speaker 1: parenting or whatever. But it is interesting, like I don't know,
Speaker 1: maybe the world feels so much more complicated. I know,
Speaker 1: so many more horrible things than I feel like my
Speaker 1: parents knew at this age. Like, I mean, my parents
Speaker 1: certainly were, I mean, they're definitely worried people. They would
Speaker 1: voice the most insane worries about any subject, but like still,
Speaker 1: I feel like they weren't as aware of all of
Speaker 1: the possible things that could happen in the world. And
Speaker 1: now we seem so aware. I mean it's kind of
Speaker 1: like the Twitter mind, right, like where you can see
Speaker 1: every bad thing happening all at once. Yeah, this is
Speaker 1: a sociological finding that like when there is more violence
Speaker 1: on television and you pull people after watching more violence
Speaker 1: on television, the perception of violence in their neighborhood or
Speaker 1: in their city goes up, and you can make people
Speaker 1: believe there's more cry and then there actually is. Or
Speaker 1: the way that like on house people, like if you
Speaker 1: see an on housed person, even if they're not committing
Speaker 1: a crime, they up the perception of crime in an area.
Speaker 1: So like all these things that have bearing I think
Speaker 1: on our on our fears and all that sort of thing.
Speaker 1: But another huge thing is even parents who are totally
Speaker 1: on board, especially with like a fifteen year old or
Speaker 1: a sixteen year old, there is no teen babysitting supply,
Speaker 1: and that is also hyper parenting because all of these
Speaker 1: kids are scheduled to the gills, don't have any space
Speaker 1: too babysit, and that is a problem in it of itself.
Speaker 1: It's funny, I mean, you're still on topic for me,
Speaker 1: but we actually have a neighbor whose daughter is sixteen
Speaker 1: and we've been trying to pin her down for some
Speaker 1: babysitting and it's been very difficult to schedule her. And
Speaker 1: I think there's I mean, listen, you know, it is
Speaker 1: a busy time. We're all, you know, we're cramming for
Speaker 1: the I don't know whatever tests that sixteen year olds
Speaker 1: are taking. But p s A T p s A T. Sure.
Speaker 1: I mean there's not a lot of free time anymore
Speaker 1: because you can just look at the internet. I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know what your teen experience was like. But
Speaker 1: like I baby said, all the time, because there wasn't
Speaker 1: anything else to do. Um, I did not do a
Speaker 1: lot of babysitting. Well that's also a gender thing. That's
Speaker 1: pretty messed up. I should say I did a couple
Speaker 1: of babysitting gigs. I will tell you boys are great babysitters.
Speaker 1: I thought I was excellent. We mostly watched movies, to
Speaker 1: be honest, totally well, and that's what most people want.
Speaker 1: So the first time I saw The Little Mermaid was
Speaker 1: while I was babysitting, and I was like, I've never
Speaker 1: seen this movie before, and the kids loved it, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, wow, this is very interesting. It's pretty pretty enjoyable. Yeah. No,
Speaker 1: I think that the kids who need babysitting and then
Speaker 1: also the ones who would be doing the babysitting, And
Speaker 1: there's a real understanding that all time can be kind
Speaker 1: of colonized for self enrichment and like lines on a resume,
Speaker 1: and because babysitting can't be a way to get into college,
Speaker 1: it's it's devalued in that list of things that should
Speaker 1: be taking up kids time. Right, I feel like babysitting
Speaker 1: should tell if you get into college, Like I think
Speaker 1: if you're good at it, like, it's pretty impressive. I mean,
Speaker 1: kids are insane and taking care of them is very hard. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I also think it just generally gives you incredible perspective,
Speaker 1: Like so many parents I know who have never changed
Speaker 1: a diaper before they have kids, and then they're like
Speaker 1: what happened? Uh? And yeah, you can learn all of
Speaker 1: those skills. But I think that having a lot of
Speaker 1: experience with it also makes you make a more informed decision.
Speaker 1: Don't you think that this idea of like it being
Speaker 1: hard to find a teen babysitter also has something to
Speaker 1: do with I feel like we've like really fucked up communities,
Speaker 1: like real world communities in a big way. Like obviously
Speaker 1: the pandemic had an impact on how we associate with
Speaker 1: the people around us, But I think the existence and
Speaker 1: I don't want to blame everything on the Internet, but
Speaker 1: it definitely is way easier now, much easier than ever before,
Speaker 1: to totally disengage with the people around you, like, particularly
Speaker 1: if you don't live in a major city, right. I mean,
Speaker 1: this is to me, like the root of a lot
Speaker 1: of the problems in the world is like you're never
Speaker 1: worse to like interact with other people, and if like
Speaker 1: you have to interact with other people that are not
Speaker 1: like you, it's very easy to not care or think
Speaker 1: about them at all. And I do think the Internet
Speaker 1: is part of it. I think like Amazon is part
Speaker 1: of it. I think like this whole sort of disconnected
Speaker 1: way that we live is like not to go all
Speaker 1: the way back to Twitter or anything. But I had
Speaker 1: Tolentino on and we talked about this, that there's this
Speaker 1: conception of the Internet being this town square or Twitter
Speaker 1: being a town square, and it's like a town square
Speaker 1: is a physical place where you interact with the people
Speaker 1: that you live near, right, And it's like a very
Speaker 1: specific kind of personal interaction, like if you think historically
Speaker 1: about what they're like, and we've sort of removed a
Speaker 1: lot of that. Like I only just met my next
Speaker 1: door neighbor. I live, you know, about an hour outside
Speaker 1: of New York and I've lived here for eight years
Speaker 1: and I only just physically interact with my next door
Speaker 1: neighbor for the first time, like three months ago. I
Speaker 1: want to point to another sociologist, Robert Putnam, whose book
Speaker 1: Bowling Alone from two thousand, Like he didn't theorize this.
Speaker 1: There are other people who had kind of been talking
Speaker 1: about this before, but he brought together a bunch of
Speaker 1: data and put it all together to say, like, here's
Speaker 1: what has happened to our loose ties, which are like
Speaker 1: the people that you just kind of know, right your
Speaker 1: next door neighbor, the people the people would go to
Speaker 1: church with. It's called bowling alone because people used to
Speaker 1: be part of things like if you grew up in
Speaker 1: America and your grandparents generation that generation were joiners, Like
Speaker 1: they were part of so many different clubs, you know,
Speaker 1: the Elks, the Moose, and in addition to whatever religious
Speaker 1: organization that they were part of, and that was just
Speaker 1: the norm, that was the status quo. And there are
Speaker 1: many reasons why that cohesion, that social cohesion really rose
Speaker 1: after World War Two and stayed strong for several decades
Speaker 1: and then began to fall apart over the course of
Speaker 1: the seventies, eighties, and nineties. And I think the Internet
Speaker 1: is an accelerant, but also there's so many other things
Speaker 1: that were insisting in that basically, like when people no
Speaker 1: longer feel compelled to go to church all the time,
Speaker 1: may because of other things happening with face structures or
Speaker 1: just loosening of moral structures that make it so like, oh,
Speaker 1: I don't have to go to church every weekend to
Speaker 1: be a part of a community. Actually, like I can
Speaker 1: live with someone before I get married, right, There's so
Speaker 1: many reasons for the decline of these and I think,
Speaker 1: you know, and a lot of these organizations, like the
Speaker 1: ku Klux Klan was one of these organizations, people feel
Speaker 1: like they were part of something. Are you recommending just
Speaker 1: to make sure I'm hearing this, you're recommending more like
Speaker 1: there's nothing like, you know, purely good about being in
Speaker 1: the same community as someone necessarily, but that stuff, and
Speaker 1: it also coincides with the need to spend more time,
Speaker 1: more hours working in order for a family to survive, right,
Speaker 1: So if you're spending all of this time working and
Speaker 1: then when you get home you're so tired. And then
Speaker 1: we also have all of these new standards of parenting,
Speaker 1: especially for like middle class parents, in order to get
Speaker 1: your kid ready for college in order to hopefully have
Speaker 1: them be more successful theoretically than you are, or at
Speaker 1: least equal successful. Like, all of those things come together
Speaker 1: to really create these highly individualized situations where people are
Speaker 1: desperate for community and have no idea how to make it.
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, there's a lot of people
Speaker 1: that I really admire who talk a lot about what
Speaker 1: it takes to build community. Garrett Box to rates things
Speaker 1: like the White Pages is one of my favorites, but
Speaker 1: sometimes it's weird and awkward and boring. Like I think
Speaker 1: that we also have this expectation that if we sign
Speaker 1: up to go to something, it should be really compelling
Speaker 1: and like all about us the way, right, Like it
Speaker 1: should be like an instagram able experience, because some of
Speaker 1: the work of community building is like showing up for
Speaker 1: the library committee meeting and just it's kind of boring,
Speaker 1: but that's how you meet people. Sometimes it's doing boring stuff. No,
Speaker 1: I mean it's interesting, Like the religion thing is is
Speaker 1: so fascinating because it is kind of one of the
Speaker 1: things that's like a very clear forcing mechanism to make
Speaker 1: you interact with your community typically, right, like a church
Speaker 1: going community is going to be people from around you
Speaker 1: who are going to the same place, and even if
Speaker 1: you're not religious or whatever, you're just you end up
Speaker 1: there and you end up meeting people. But like, I mean,
Speaker 1: I would never argue that, like we should have more religion,
Speaker 1: Like I think that it's good that people feel they
Speaker 1: have the option to not be religious that they don't
Speaker 1: want to, but we have not replaced that with anything
Speaker 1: really meaningful and and in fact, everything we do kind
Speaker 1: of reinforces that, like the less you interact with people,
Speaker 1: the better you can be, or like the better it
Speaker 1: is for you. And to me, it's like it's a
Speaker 1: very political thing. Like when you think about some of
Speaker 1: the major political problems of our time or the cultural
Speaker 1: things that are happening, like it's very easy to see
Speaker 1: that we've just become very focused on ourselves and everything
Speaker 1: kind of reinforces that. Well, it's defensive Crouch, right, It's
Speaker 1: like everything feels so tenuous economically, societally in so many
Speaker 1: different ways that you have to be on the defensive
Speaker 1: and really just focus your energy and preservational energy on
Speaker 1: me and mine, right. And I see this a lot, right,
Speaker 1: And that's like I don't want to fund anything that
Speaker 1: isn't benefiting me in mine. Right. It's very selfish, right,
Speaker 1: It's like a weirdly like obviously selfish thing to just go, well,
Speaker 1: sure there's a lot of stuff going on, but that's
Speaker 1: not my problem. Like I need to figure out how
Speaker 1: I can get what I need. That's not my problem. Right.
Speaker 1: I have seen a voting strategy that I that I like,
Speaker 1: which is that you vote in the interests of the
Speaker 1: most vulnerable in your right. And that's a very different
Speaker 1: voting strategy than vote for things that immediately benefit me
Speaker 1: in mine. You are reminding me of a few years ago.
Speaker 1: I mean, Laura's dad. He's a person who like kind
Speaker 1: of never voted. There's a kind of a certain like
Speaker 1: older person in this country who's like they're all bumbs
Speaker 1: or whatever, you know, which like to be fair probably accurate, um.
Speaker 1: And he sort of sat it out and I remember,
Speaker 1: you know, Laura talking to him and saying, like, you're
Speaker 1: not vote for you, You're voting for like Zelda. If
Speaker 1: you think about voting for like our kid and the
Speaker 1: world she's going to live in, like you can just
Speaker 1: completely think differently about why you're voting or what you're
Speaker 1: voting for. And he definitely was like, oh yeah, Like
Speaker 1: I never thought of it that way. And I think
Speaker 1: it requires some level of empathy to be able to
Speaker 1: go what would it be like if I were that
Speaker 1: person and let me think about it for a second
Speaker 1: and actually care, which I think it's become increasingly hard
Speaker 1: to do. I will say, there's this whole school thing,
Speaker 1: and during the pandemic, it became really obvious to me
Speaker 1: how much we lost. And of course I have a
Speaker 1: perspective because we have, you know, a child who's like
Speaker 1: had just gotten into like the public school system here,
Speaker 1: and and you couldn't go to the school, like there's
Speaker 1: a period where they weren't going, but then like you
Speaker 1: couldn't go in, We couldn't meet any of her teachers,
Speaker 1: Like we couldn't talk to the principle, Like we didn't
Speaker 1: know the other parents because nobody was allowed to assemble
Speaker 1: in the same place. So it's like, we have all
Speaker 1: this stuff happening with religion, We have the Internet, we
Speaker 1: have like modern society, and Amazon will deliver you anything.
Speaker 1: You no longer have to go to this or for it.
Speaker 1: But then the pandemic kind of hit, and it was
Speaker 1: like even some of these places where you still were
Speaker 1: finding yourself interacting with people in a way that you
Speaker 1: never would have expected or you know, you sort of
Speaker 1: forced to in some way, went away. And I think
Speaker 1: that kind of hastened whatever state we're in now. It's
Speaker 1: like we're in a very dark zone, right. But I
Speaker 1: think it also like highlighted how much we need those
Speaker 1: bonds too, so it hastened their decline and also accelerated
Speaker 1: the need for them. You know. I think when I
Speaker 1: was talking to people about the team babysitter thing, there
Speaker 1: were some people who said, you know, because I don't
Speaker 1: live in the proximity of either of my parents, and
Speaker 1: and or like my parents aren't longer with us, like
Speaker 1: all sorts of different reasons. If you don't have immediate
Speaker 1: familial childcare. They're like, we don't have any childcare either
Speaker 1: can't afford it or we can't find it. And they're like,
Speaker 1: this has affected my life in many ways, like it
Speaker 1: has affected our marriage, it has affected my personal health,
Speaker 1: Like people need time away from their children, I think,
Speaker 1: and it's meaningful, and then they find themselves thinking like
Speaker 1: I can't you know, I can't build community, like to
Speaker 1: find the babysitters, to be away from my kid, because
Speaker 1: I can't be away from my kid, Like it's a
Speaker 1: chicken and the egg kind of self fulfilling prophecy. And
Speaker 1: a lot of parents in particular have found themselves mired
Speaker 1: in that situation. And there are things that we could
Speaker 1: do structurally to make community building easier, whether it's you know,
Speaker 1: funding childcare, is infrastructure, or or just things that make
Speaker 1: it so that you're not just where you're not in
Speaker 1: that defensive crouch all the times that make that possible.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's funny, big you go back to it,
Speaker 1: and you could go, well, it's kind of capitalism. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to be like, well, if
Speaker 1: we could just do away with capitalism, but there is
Speaker 1: an argument not to do away with it, Like if
Speaker 1: we just could slightly rearrange the way we have ordered
Speaker 1: priorities in our society, a lot of stuff might be
Speaker 1: quickly alleviated. But meanwhile, this is we're not doing that apparently, um,
Speaker 1: and we're unfortunately where we're almost out of time, like
Speaker 1: I have, I feel like there's a million things that
Speaker 1: we can talk about, No, for sure, like I we
Speaker 1: did like a full half an hour old Like I
Speaker 1: don't even know what septic ts, yeah, exceptic tanks, which
Speaker 1: I think is honestly some some of the best stuff
Speaker 1: we've done on this podcast yet. But before you go,
Speaker 1: if somebody wants to engage with the Anne Helen Peterson
Speaker 1: Extended universe, like what is it? Where to start? You
Speaker 1: have so many things going on? Where should a person start? Well?
Speaker 1: The new podcast is work appropriate. It's from Cricket Media,
Speaker 1: and I have heard it alternately described as like Delilah,
Speaker 1: Like you know Deliva, the like late night romance UM
Speaker 1: talk show that you can get syndicated across America. What now,
Speaker 1: I have no idea what you're talking about? What is Delilah?
Speaker 1: Listeners to the show will know Delilah for work or
Speaker 1: car talk for work, Like basically it's an advice show
Speaker 1: car talk. I do under yeah, but now I'm really
Speaker 1: interested in Delilah. Look it up like a Delilah talk
Speaker 1: And really what it is is it's like looking at
Speaker 1: work with people who don't have n b as, like
Speaker 1: who aren't like you know, publishing in Harvard Business Review
Speaker 1: and like LinkedIn influencers, but are just trying to make
Speaker 1: work better. And so people right in with their work
Speaker 1: quandaries and me and a co host go through and
Speaker 1: try to address them to try to make work survivable
Speaker 1: sustainable in different ways. I love this idea, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: And then my newsletter culture Study and Helena's subject dot com.
Speaker 1: I like when people are not just one thing. I
Speaker 1: think like we have too many people, and I think
Speaker 1: by the world and the Internet to some extent, expects
Speaker 1: people to go like you just do this one thing
Speaker 1: and that's who you are. I think a lot of
Speaker 1: people think of you and you're like, oh, you're the
Speaker 1: burnout person. But there's so much more to talk about,
Speaker 1: and like you're so smart about this stuff. Like just
Speaker 1: this conversation is and utterly fascinating. We can talk so
Speaker 1: much more about babysitting. I mean just I know when
Speaker 1: you look at your sub stack, I feel like you're
Speaker 1: doing that where you're not just on this like a
Speaker 1: single thing, but it is like there is a lens
Speaker 1: and it's your lens, and your lens is super interesting,
Speaker 1: and so you have to come back. We have to
Speaker 1: talk more, because this feels like part one of a
Speaker 1: multi part for sure. We have so much more to
Speaker 1: talk about. I mean, I got to hear what happens
Speaker 1: when you get the new septic tank in, because like,
Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever met anybody with a brand
Speaker 1: new septic tank, to be honest with you, so please do.
Speaker 1: The great thing is that you're not gonna be able
Speaker 1: to see anything else. It's one of those home investments
Speaker 1: where you're like, oh, we just like spend a bunch
Speaker 1: of money and it's something that will never affect my
Speaker 1: daily life except for the fact that we will not
Speaker 1: have a poop catastrophe in our backyard. And I think
Speaker 1: that is the best you could ask for in life,
Speaker 1: is you don't see it, but you have no poop
Speaker 1: catastrophes because of it. And Helen, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for doing this. I really appreciate. I've super serious, heavily
Speaker 1: enjoyed this conversation, and you have to come back and
Speaker 1: uh and discuss things even beyond the septic tank. I
Speaker 1: very much look forward to it. Thank you so much. Well,
Speaker 1: that was fun. Oh my god, that was the best.
Speaker 1: We have to have many more conversations with than Helen,
Speaker 1: I think. Yeah. I have to say I've been such
Speaker 1: a huge fan of hers for you know, ten plus years.
Speaker 1: It's a long time. Every couple of years, I feel
Speaker 1: like she hones in on a new expertise topic and
Speaker 1: and it's just has the most interesting way of presenting
Speaker 1: her findings. That's all true, I believe. But also I'm
Speaker 1: I'm kind of on the edge of my seat about
Speaker 1: the septic tank. You know, I'm thankful that I don't
Speaker 1: have to worry about a septic tank. Oh wow, that's right.
Speaker 1: It's Thanksgiving right now. This episode is actually out on Thanksgiving.
Speaker 1: This is the way I say thanks to all the
Speaker 1: listeners by giving them more of me. This most selfless
Speaker 1: thing I can think of doing, to be honest, is
Speaker 1: just putting myself out there for them. No, yeah, it's Thanksgiving.
Speaker 1: It's a weird time to feel thankful about anything, to
Speaker 1: be honest, I mean, I guess we're still alive. That's good,
Speaker 1: you know, no, no nuclear war so far. Pretty good. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's something that I used to worry about a lot more.
Speaker 1: I've lately, I've been more worried about it. For some
Speaker 1: that's like the older I get, the less concerned I
Speaker 1: am with being wiped out. Then you should not read
Speaker 1: any articles about the war in Ukraine. It's my recommendation.
Speaker 1: Well it's yeah, it's not that I don't think it's
Speaker 1: less likely to happen that I think you care less,
Speaker 1: Like yeah, yeah, yes, wipe me out in a flash
Speaker 1: of white hot fire. Good, you know, is it? I
Speaker 1: don't know. There's only one way to find out. I
Speaker 1: think very dark stuff for Thanksgiving, extremely dark, but um, yeah,
Speaker 1: what don't you know. Listen, I'm thankful for my landlines,
Speaker 1: my new layout lines, and uh, you know, I just
Speaker 1: think Thanksgivings a perfect time to actually be thinking about
Speaker 1: all this stuff for you about like scaling down life.
Speaker 1: It's one of my favorite times of the year, and
Speaker 1: there's always a lot to do, and then you get
Speaker 1: to hang out with people. And I guess I'm lucky.
Speaker 1: I have a kind of privileged view of Thanksgiving because
Speaker 1: I don't have any relatives that show up that are
Speaker 1: like horrible, you know, somehow I've lucked out. And I
Speaker 1: say this in this year, it'll they'll probably some wild
Speaker 1: card situation. But I know a lot of people go
Speaker 1: home for Thanksgiving or whatever, it's very fraught because there's
Speaker 1: some like uncle. It's always like the uncle who's like
Speaker 1: racist and a Trump voter or whatever. But um, I
Speaker 1: don't have that. All of my uncles are democratic social
Speaker 1: I have that, but they're not outspoken, so they just
Speaker 1: stay quiet because they know how outnosed they are. I
Speaker 1: think that's about as good as you can expect, really
Speaker 1: in those situations. You know, it's because the thing about
Speaker 1: it is, if you're friends or something you find out
Speaker 1: they're like a Nazi, you can always be like, well,
Speaker 1: we're not gonna be friends anymore. But yeah, with your family,
Speaker 1: you might end up at a wedding with them or
Speaker 1: a Thanksgiving dinner, and then you've got to tolerate their
Speaker 1: terrible opinions. So I think if they don't say anything,
Speaker 1: that's actually the best possible, the best. Yeah, that's what
Speaker 1: you're thinking for all right, Well, I think we should
Speaker 1: wrap this up. I mean, frankly, all of this is
Speaker 1: making me think about eating some eating some food. What's
Speaker 1: your essential Thanksgiving dish? You mean, like the Thanksgiving dish
Speaker 1: I can't live without? Well, Laura makes these things called
Speaker 1: spinach balls, which are like a ball of spinach and
Speaker 1: bread and cheese. Uh, and then they're baked and they
Speaker 1: are just unbelievably good. It's like a ball of Thanksgiving
Speaker 1: in my opinion. What about you? Do you have a
Speaker 1: favorite Thanksgiving? I love cranberry sauce. My mom's pool on
Speaker 1: the stove, cranberry sauce, never from the can. And then
Speaker 1: when I moved out here, I told her I was
Speaker 1: making cranberry sauce. I called her for the recipe. We're
Speaker 1: on the phone for like an hour. I'm confused. Her
Speaker 1: directions are kind of vague. Keep asking like more specifics,
Speaker 1: and then eventually she goes, I don't know. It's on
Speaker 1: the back of the bag. It's just it's just the
Speaker 1: ocean spray very recipe. I'm not a big cranberry sauce person.
Speaker 1: Have I ever even had it. It's the thing that
Speaker 1: I'm wondering I'm going to have some this year. But
Speaker 1: the flavor tart start, Yeah, and you put it on something.
Speaker 1: You don't need to buy it, so you can put
Speaker 1: it on you garnish something with the cranberry sauce, yeah,
Speaker 1: or you or you just eat it in a bowl
Speaker 1: for days. You spoon it out into your mouth and
Speaker 1: from a bowl. That doesn't sound right to me, but
Speaker 1: fair enough. You know, everybody's got there something as they say, well,
Speaker 1: that's what I'm gonna do. That's great. Sound very dismissive,
Speaker 1: like get good you do you? Okay, have your bowl
Speaker 1: of cranberry sauce. It does sound. Now I'm signing for
Speaker 1: a sort of intreat. I'm gonna you know what, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna report back about the cranberry sauce in the next episode.
Speaker 1: I think I'm gonna give you my my take on
Speaker 1: cranberry sauce. In fact, the next episode will probably just
Speaker 1: be one hour of talking about cranberry sauce. I would
Speaker 1: love it. All right, Well, that is our show for
Speaker 1: this week. We'll be back next week with more what future.
Speaker 1: And as always, I wish you and your family the
Speaker 1: very best, and I hope they don't need too much
Speaker 1: Thanksgiving dinner because think you get very, very sick.