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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to What Future. I'm your host, Joshua Topolski,

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Speaker 1: and I am back in front of a real microphone.

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Speaker 1: Times are good. Things are feeling really good right now,

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Speaker 1: liras to sound better to you. Yeah, what's your new

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Speaker 1: gadget you were talking about? Oh? Yeah, I was just

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Speaker 1: telling Lyra before. Maybe we should give people a peek

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Speaker 1: behind the curtains of the production of the show. You know,

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Speaker 1: we we have to record all the time because very

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Speaker 1: often we're having a great conversation that's super interesting and

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Speaker 1: I'm rambling about something and then it's not recorded. So

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Speaker 1: just prior to this, I started to talk about something

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Speaker 1: and then you were like, start recording. You didn't yell

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Speaker 1: at me. I mean that makes it sound like you're cruel,

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Speaker 1: but you're not. You're actually I was very nice for anybody, know,

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Speaker 1: even though she was made fun of my audio in

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Speaker 1: the last episode. Okay, I'll tell you the story of

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Speaker 1: how I came to purchase my new gadget. Are you

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Speaker 1: familiar with Instagram? Have you ever used the service? It's

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Speaker 1: a photo photo sharing service owned by Facebook. Well, the

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Speaker 1: company is called Metta now formerly known as Facebook. Anyhow,

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Speaker 1: I was on Instagram which I'm increasingly on because I

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Speaker 1: don't want to look at Twitter. Uh, and I have

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Speaker 1: to say, like, I'm that seems fine. So far, it

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Speaker 1: seems fine to not look at Twitter. I was on

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Speaker 1: Instagram and I was looking at there's a tab on

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Speaker 1: Instagram which I don't know how many people interact with it,

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Speaker 1: but I want to say that the symbol for the

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Speaker 1: tab is maybe what is it? Is it a Is

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Speaker 1: it a magnifying glass? Perhaps? Is it a what is it?

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Speaker 1: Is it a magnifying glass? Yeah? That sounds right. It

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Speaker 1: used to be called the Discover the Discover tab, yes, correct.

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Speaker 1: So so every so often when I feel like I've

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Speaker 1: exhausted my Instagram sort of scrolling or story watching, I

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Speaker 1: will go to the to the Discover tab just to

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Speaker 1: see what's going on. Now, I have to say, their

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Speaker 1: curation of things that I might be interested in is

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Speaker 1: second to none. So um. A little while ago, I

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Speaker 1: started following this musician whose name is Fred Again. Do

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Speaker 1: you have ever heard of Fred Again? Fred Again is

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Speaker 1: a British guy. He looks like a classic white British clubgoer.

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Speaker 1: I can't describe it any better than that. He just

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Speaker 1: looks like he just looks like a classic British guy

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Speaker 1: who's into raves from train spotting. You know those people

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Speaker 1: are heroin attics. This is like a look um, you know. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he has like a short like a closely cropped haircut

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Speaker 1: maybe some I don't think he's any facial hair, but

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Speaker 1: he kind of maybe always has a little bit of

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Speaker 1: a five o'clock shadow. I think he wears like a

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Speaker 1: vest all the time for some reason. Like I don't

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Speaker 1: know if I've ever seen him not wearing a vest

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Speaker 1: in any of the photos or videos I've seen. Anyhow,

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Speaker 1: Fred Again makes like kind of euphoric pop house music.

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Speaker 1: He's fairly well known, he's fairly popular, He's got like

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Speaker 1: a following. It also sounds like rave music from the

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Speaker 1: Nine Ties, which I used to produce, So you know,

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Speaker 1: for me, it's it's like catnet. So I started following

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Speaker 1: the Instagram, I started listening to some of his music,

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Speaker 1: and and then I went to the Discover tab one

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Speaker 1: day and there was a video of Fred Again talking

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Speaker 1: to Zane Low. Also like Fred Again. His whole vibe

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Speaker 1: is like he's really possy, Like everything's like super positive,

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Speaker 1: like loving smiles, hugs, like it's all like very it's

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Speaker 1: very plur. Do you know what plur is. Plur is

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Speaker 1: the thing that people used to put on rave flyers

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Speaker 1: in the nineties and early two thousands. It stood for peace, love,

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Speaker 1: unity in respect. It was like an ethos by which

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Speaker 1: the raver lived by. So there's a video of Fred

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Speaker 1: Again and Zane Low and Fred again is playing this

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Speaker 1: instrument and it's it's something made by a company called

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Speaker 1: Native Instruments. It's called the Machine. Plus this is like

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Speaker 1: a more advanced version of it. I mean, I assume

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Speaker 1: you've seen the types of samplers that like in hip

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Speaker 1: hop and in rap, like if like you think of

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Speaker 1: like how do like rap producers work. It is like

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Speaker 1: the thing that you think of iconic. So it's like

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Speaker 1: kind of that. But it also has like two screens

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Speaker 1: on it, and it has like all these buttons like

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Speaker 1: in knobs and stuff. It's not much bigger than a laptop, okay,

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Speaker 1: And the entire thing is like a self contained like

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Speaker 1: music production device. And in the video Fred again, I'm

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Speaker 1: assuming his first name is Fred, but I can't be sure.

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Speaker 1: Fred is like talking about how this thing had completely

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Speaker 1: changed the way he makes music, and I was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: that's interesting because this guy's music is pretty interesting and

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Speaker 1: what he was playing on it was pretty interesting, and

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Speaker 1: I had never really explored the device at all anyhow,

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Speaker 1: So I ordered one, like just rant just was like,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to check this out. I want to. I

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Speaker 1: want to play with it, and and I have. I've

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Speaker 1: been messing around with and in fact, I was late

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Speaker 1: to this recording because I was messing around with it.

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Speaker 1: And it's so fascinating to me because it's a completely

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Speaker 1: tactile experience. It is a completely new experience for me.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how it works. Actually, so most technology,

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Speaker 1: I have a very very deep understanding of how it

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Speaker 1: func and this is a thing that's like, I mean,

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Speaker 1: for sure, if I put it in front of anybody

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Speaker 1: who has not produced music, they would be completely just

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Speaker 1: dumbfounded by its functionality. And even as a person who

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Speaker 1: has used very complex software and hardware to make music,

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Speaker 1: it's still like it's kind of vexine to me in

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Speaker 1: a good way, though, in like a fun way, like

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Speaker 1: I don't know how it works, and so I'm experimenting

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Speaker 1: and learning things. But the thing that's really interesting about

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Speaker 1: it to me is that it is completely offline right,

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Speaker 1: I mean it is. It does connect to Wi Fi.

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Speaker 1: You can download sounds and stuff like that, but it

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Speaker 1: is not a computer. Now, I'm used to making music

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Speaker 1: on a computer. When you're on a laptop, you're still

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Speaker 1: like on the Internet or whatever. You might get a notification,

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Speaker 1: you might decide to like look at something on Amazon,

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Speaker 1: or you know, research something. This is like you can't

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Speaker 1: really do anything else when you're using it, and it

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Speaker 1: is just unbelievably pleasant to be doing something creative that

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Speaker 1: has no material connection to any of the other things

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Speaker 1: that exists in the digital realm. Like it is just

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Speaker 1: it is essentially air gapped from the stuff that would

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Speaker 1: be otherwise distracting to you. And um and yeah, and

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Speaker 1: I've been like I've had it for a couple of days,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's like I find it like endlessly

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Speaker 1: fascinating and and extremely good at what it does, with

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Speaker 1: like you know, having learned probably one percent of all

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Speaker 1: of its functions. Anyhow, Native Instruments, by the way, not

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Speaker 1: sponsoring yet, but I would love to do some reads

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Speaker 1: for them about how much I love the machine. Plus

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Speaker 1: the other thing that I've been doing in the same

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Speaker 1: set of days that I've been messing with this is

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Speaker 1: that we have recently purchased several landline telephones for the house.

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Speaker 1: Laura has been buying old telephones, like from the sixties

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Speaker 1: and seventies and eighties, and god, they sound so good

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Speaker 1: first off when you use them. But secondly, there's something

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Speaker 1: really amazing about taking a call and being like locked

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Speaker 1: to a place and like literally not receiving a notification

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Speaker 1: while you're in the middle of it, or you know,

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Speaker 1: having somebody like, you know, face time you or whatever.

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Speaker 1: Why are you getting landlines? Well, you know, that's a

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Speaker 1: great question. We were telling Zelda what a land line

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Speaker 1: was like a few years ago, and she was like,

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Speaker 1: could we get one? And I think we thought it

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Speaker 1: would be novel and fun. And she probably has used

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Speaker 1: the landline more than anybody. She likes to make calls

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Speaker 1: on the phone, So that was the original reason. And

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Speaker 1: then and then Laura, I don't know, recently got this

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Speaker 1: idea that she wanted one in her office, and um,

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Speaker 1: she has an office here at our house. And and

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Speaker 1: then you know, now we have one in the kitchen

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Speaker 1: and they're just springing up all over the place, like

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Speaker 1: the kitchen landline the kitchen. Yeah, we got like the

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Speaker 1: iconic kitchen. It's like hangs on the wall. We actually

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Speaker 1: got this like bright orange phone. It's like hangs on

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Speaker 1: the wall. It's got like the curly you know, cable

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Speaker 1: connecting the handset. I mean, Laura had told me the

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Speaker 1: story about how one time, you know, her mother like

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Speaker 1: you know, accidentally like let go of the phone and

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Speaker 1: had it pulled all the way across like two rooms

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Speaker 1: and it went like flying out of her hand and

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Speaker 1: it like whipped into her brother's head or something, you know,

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Speaker 1: which is a real thing that used to happen with

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Speaker 1: these phones. Yeah, I mean that was the whole thing.

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Speaker 1: It was how far could you go to have your

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Speaker 1: private twelve year old conversation exactly? Well, now I think

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Speaker 1: we're for Christmas. We're gonna get one for Zelda's room

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Speaker 1: because she's been asking for one. Like we're gonna have

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Speaker 1: like a full house of of landlines. It's going to

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Speaker 1: be like But this is why I feel like it's

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Speaker 1: connected to my interest in this music making gadget, which

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Speaker 1: is obviously it's very very futuristic, but it's self contained

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Speaker 1: in a way that I don't think that enough things

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Speaker 1: feel these days. And you know, I think that's increasingly

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Speaker 1: important to people for their sanity, Like a little sliver

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Speaker 1: of of all of of these things are like trying

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Speaker 1: to find a way back to some form of living

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Speaker 1: that feels more sane and familiar. I might argue cozy,

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Speaker 1: some style of living where you have like much closer connections.

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Speaker 1: Like the phone is a great example of a thing

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Speaker 1: where you know, who do you call on the phone

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Speaker 1: If you're not prying calling, you know you're calling like

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Speaker 1: your friends and family. You had to memorize their phone numbers.

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Speaker 1: There was an infinite amount of people you could call.

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Speaker 1: Laura reminded me that you used to be able to

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Speaker 1: call an operator, and you would talk to an operator

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Speaker 1: like a person. She said that sometimes, like when her

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Speaker 1: parents didn't pick her up from school or something and

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Speaker 1: she had no money, she would call the operator and

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Speaker 1: like kind of beg the operator to put her through

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Speaker 1: to her parents, and they would do it. Sometimes like

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Speaker 1: on a pay phone. Oh, we would do the what

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Speaker 1: is that? I was that like where it tells you

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Speaker 1: that you've got to collect call coming through or whatever.

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Speaker 1: We had a baby, it's a boy. What does that mean?

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Speaker 1: That was the commercial We had a baby, It's a boy.

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Speaker 1: Is that because that code? Will you accept this collect

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Speaker 1: call from we had a baby? It's a boy? I see.

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Speaker 1: So it's you just get the message out in that

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Speaker 1: manner and I'm ready to get picked up, right. I see.

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Speaker 1: You'd stay it as fast as possible and then they

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Speaker 1: would just get that like a page. Well that's a

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Speaker 1: little more advanced. That's probably ten years later, you know,

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Speaker 1: but still to your point, and perhaps to my point,

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Speaker 1: I do think we're kind of seeking out at this

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Speaker 1: point as the world around us has become unfathomably and

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Speaker 1: uncontrollably large. And I have definitely touched on this in

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Speaker 1: other episodes. I do think we're kind of seeking out

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Speaker 1: like more of what would be considered a traditional. Well,

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Speaker 1: the word traditional is loaded. You can't say traditional anymore

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Speaker 1: because that's like Nazi stuff basically. But like if you

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Speaker 1: say a traditional now, people are like, oh, that's coded language,

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Speaker 1: meaning like white Aryan family or whatever. I think maybe

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Speaker 1: I'm wrong, but I feel like it is. But you know,

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Speaker 1: just sort of like scale down way of living where

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Speaker 1: your world is much smaller and your communities are much smaller,

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Speaker 1: and you have sane real world interactions with people and anyhow,

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Speaker 1: and thinking about all this site, I thought about the

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Speaker 1: writer and podcaster and author and Helen Peterson, who has

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Speaker 1: written a about well, She's written a lot about a

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Speaker 1: lot of things, but definitely has kind of developed this

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Speaker 1: community around her work and around talking about sort of

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Speaker 1: modern life and all of its pitfalls and traps and

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Speaker 1: sort of out of wax scale. She's written a lot

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Speaker 1: about burnout, which is a topic that is sort of

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Speaker 1: the byproduct of a world where our jobs are our

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Speaker 1: entire personality. Anyhow, So I thought we should talk to

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Speaker 1: Anne Helen and talk about what's happening to the world

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Speaker 1: right now and how we how we get back to sanity.

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Speaker 1: So here's my conversation with Anne Helen Peterson. Hello, we

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Speaker 1: have someone digging out our old step dick tank and

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Speaker 1: replacing it with a new septic tank in our backyard,

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Speaker 1: just the normal today nightmare scenario. As a person with

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Speaker 1: a septic tank, I can tell you that I dread

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Speaker 1: the day was the only matter of time. Isn't it

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Speaker 1: that they're going to be like, you need to get

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Speaker 1: a new septic tank? Our is this from? Like? And

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Speaker 1: well our house built nine so we're right behind you. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so our house is built in nineteen o four and

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Speaker 1: was like a fishing camp and then they slowly turned

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Speaker 1: it into a habitable place. But the septic is very

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Speaker 1: very old, and when there are metal septic tanks, they

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Speaker 1: rest out and they fail. And and we didn't know

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Speaker 1: when we bought the house, like there was no red

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Speaker 1: flag next to septic tank as metal. We're just like, oh, really,

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Speaker 1: you didn't have like you had an inspection. Yeah, we

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Speaker 1: had an inspection, but they weren't like bad, bad bad.

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Speaker 1: We actually had an older inspection because you know, it

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Speaker 1: was during the pandemic. So it was like, oh, this

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Speaker 1: house sold two years ago, just use this old inspection.

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Speaker 1: They were like, it's fine, we just looked at this

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Speaker 1: two years ago. Yeah, like everyone was waving inspections then too. Anyway, No, no,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you don't write. You don't want to go

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Speaker 1: in and get COVID, you know, looking at the septics

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Speaker 1: tank at somebody's house, So just go whatever. It's fine

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Speaker 1: it is. We didn't know. It was a big deal

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Speaker 1: and it didn't fail. This is actually very in fact,

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Speaker 1: what I'm about to tell you, it's very germane to

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Speaker 1: many years of your output about like burnout and also

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Speaker 1: like obviously working from home and all this, you know whatever,

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Speaker 1: But like, okay, did you know we just talked to

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Speaker 1: our septic people here, who like, God, this is so disgusting,

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Speaker 1: by the way, but here's the thing. The rate at

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Speaker 1: which they need to pump out septic tanks has gone

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Speaker 1: up like tenfold over the pandemic. Like they were like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: like everybody shiftied all the time now and the septic

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Speaker 1: tanks are getting full in like they're like we used

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Speaker 1: to come every it's like two years or something. Now

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Speaker 1: they're coming like every six months or whatever. It's like,

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Speaker 1: this is the most disgusting. Anyhow, welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: This is exactly I don't know if this is what

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Speaker 1: you were planning on talking about. I love this. I

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Speaker 1: love this whole. I like everything is happening right now,

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Speaker 1: and I never I've read enough scene that you're all

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Speaker 1: of your new content is basically septic related. I mean,

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Speaker 1: your entire new world of output is all about septic stuff.

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Speaker 1: So I think you're an expert in just a couple

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Speaker 1: of things septic tanks and work life better. Uh And Okay,

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Speaker 1: thank you first off for joining the podcast and doing this.

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Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. You're a person who, like I

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Speaker 1: know you from online. I feel like we've interacted at

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Speaker 1: some point probably, but we don't actually know each other where,

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Speaker 1: just like a person on the internet. Yeah. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: it's like person on the internet knowing person like particular currency. Uh. Now,

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Speaker 1: we're not here to talk about Twitter, but it is

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Speaker 1: kind of in the news, and I have a question

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Speaker 1: specifically about you and Twitter that I'm sort of curious about.

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Speaker 1: Correct me if I'm wrong, But I feel like I've

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Speaker 1: seen this a few times that you like to crowdsource

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Speaker 1: people on Twitter. You'll like ask them questions about stuff.

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Speaker 1: And if Twitter goes away, which it seems like pretty

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Speaker 1: possib able now, or maybe doesn't go away but becomes

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Speaker 1: way less. I don't want to say cool, because I

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Speaker 1: don't think it was ever exactly cool to be on

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Speaker 1: But you know, do you have a backup plan for

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Speaker 1: that kind of engagement, that kind of interaction, Like what

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Speaker 1: happens to those kinds of activities for you? If like

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Speaker 1: elat Musk makes it totally intolerable on Twitter, well, you know,

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Speaker 1: the first place I started doing that was Facebook, because

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Speaker 1: I started this Facebook page related to like an old

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Speaker 1: word plus blog that I had called celebrity gassap academic

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Speaker 1: style back in the late two thousand's, like two thousands seven.

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Speaker 1: I'm just interrupt. Sorry, I hate to interrupt you, but

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna do you have like a degree in celebrity.

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Speaker 1: I have an actually PhD in the history of celebrity.

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Speaker 1: So it's not right you're like a doctor of celebrities.

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Speaker 1: So I have my PhDs and media studies because oftentimes

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Speaker 1: people say, like those are the real thing. So it's

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Speaker 1: in Media Studies University of Texas at Austin. I wrote

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Speaker 1: my dissertation on the history of celebrity gassa, So it's

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Speaker 1: really like a study of the way that start images

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Speaker 1: were formed, sold, consumed, all that sort of thing. And

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Speaker 1: that's what I started writing that that word press blog

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Speaker 1: as I was studying for my comprehensive exams. It was

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Speaker 1: bored out of my mind. Wanted some sort of like

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Speaker 1: interaction with the outside world, and so I started writing

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Speaker 1: this blog and then like in a hint of what

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Speaker 1: it would come with my life, I know, did not

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Speaker 1: ever think journalism was in the future. I was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm also bored. What if I made a Facebook page

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Speaker 1: for this to get even more engagement. And I ran

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Speaker 1: that group. You know, it was people like it ran

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Speaker 1: for a long time. Yeah, that's a lot of people. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And then I noticed that like it also was getting

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Speaker 1: hidden by Facebook all the time, you know, like it

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Speaker 1: just and also, you know, everything that we all know

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Speaker 1: to do with Facebook controversial was a controversial no no,

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Speaker 1: no no. It was like people would join it and

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Speaker 1: we have like clear moderation. And I just also got

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Speaker 1: sick of like doing every single platform. So I think

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Speaker 1: this is kind of a history that you'll see with

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Speaker 1: people who like, oh it was on that platform. And

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Speaker 1: then I've had more and more interesting conversations on Twitter,

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Speaker 1: and I actually have seen over the course of the

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Speaker 1: last couple of years, like I'm less interested in those

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Speaker 1: responses on Twitter, in part because everyone is in that

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Speaker 1: moment of what the podcasters Sarah Marshall calls like like

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Speaker 1: if you're like I like poppy seed bagels, the responses

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Speaker 1: are all like this is garlic eracer, you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean, Like it's just very combative, like how dare

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Speaker 1: you think not like pose this question in this way?

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Speaker 1: Very reactionary hair trigger even if they like you, I

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Speaker 1: believe I completely understand. Have you been on Twitter for

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Speaker 1: a long time. It's like when you open it, right,

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Speaker 1: it's pretty bad news. Every time you look at it,

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Speaker 1: you're like, yikes, like it's a word were why are

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Speaker 1: we hanging out? It's like things are so bad in

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Speaker 1: ways I didn't even realize. Yes, and I've moved. You're

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Speaker 1: doing a lot more of it on Instagram because you

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Speaker 1: can do the like box where people can fill in

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Speaker 1: the question. So I'll put in a question there and

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Speaker 1: then people can respond. That community there is like women,

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Speaker 1: so it's it's filling this well, it's filling in a

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Speaker 1: different niche. And then a lot of it too, happens

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Speaker 1: on my newsletter for subscribers. There are these really rich

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Speaker 1: and interesting conversations that we have in the comments and

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Speaker 1: then also in the weekly threads, and then also in

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Speaker 1: our discord, which is where I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: the conversation is migrating right now from Twitter for people

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Speaker 1: who are in good faith want to have conversations. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so you've got sub stack, you've got a discord. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: you still have the social stuff. You've got Instagram. It

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Speaker 1: sounds exhausting like everything you just described not not to

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Speaker 1: knock it, but no, it is it is. You know,

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Speaker 1: I think that I am a person who likes chatting

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Speaker 1: with other people online. Some people do not have that

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Speaker 1: part of them that is not interesting to them. I've

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Speaker 1: like chatting with people online. It just has felt so

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Speaker 1: unfun for so long now, Like I mean, I remember

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Speaker 1: like loving being online, Like I can remember the feeling,

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Speaker 1: you know how talking about of just being like I'm

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Speaker 1: surfing this is I'm like surfing the information. I'm like

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Speaker 1: high fiving all my buds as I go along, you know,

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Speaker 1: as I hit the waves or whatever. And it is

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Speaker 1: so good. It is like the best day at the

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Speaker 1: beach of all time every time I log on and

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Speaker 1: and I can remember that palbably like for a long

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Speaker 1: period of my life. But you know, like since like

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Speaker 1: twenty somewhere around there, it started to get real maybe

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Speaker 1: even earlier, honestly, just real bad. And now I feel

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Speaker 1: like we're kind of at this strange Maybe I'm old,

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Speaker 1: by the way, This is totally possible that I'm just

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Speaker 1: an old guy. Yeah, Like I like chatting with people,

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Speaker 1: but I haven't found a lot of people to chat

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Speaker 1: with recently. Maybe this is the reason why I need

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Speaker 1: to do a sub stack. I need to just go

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Speaker 1: inside anybody who would subscribe to sub stack. But the

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Speaker 1: problem sometimes in situations like that as you get like

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Speaker 1: a bad echo chamber. So you really have to encourage

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Speaker 1: conversation that's not just with you, right, um, And then

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Speaker 1: it also takes moderation, and that's something that I think

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Speaker 1: most platforms are unwilling to do. And also most participants

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Speaker 1: are unwilling to do with each other and with themselves,

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Speaker 1: Like they're just not willing to try to have a

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Speaker 1: better conversation. They just want to like scream into the

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Speaker 1: ether because there are a lot of things to scream about.

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Speaker 1: You know, I have to do this work all the

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Speaker 1: time in the threads and the comments like do not

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Speaker 1: be butts to one another, like and don't be assholes,

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Speaker 1: and there's a lot that goes into that. But let's

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Speaker 1: try to keep this a good place on the internet.

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Speaker 1: Like that's a constant refrain, right And you know, we

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Speaker 1: have moderators in the discord because even like nice liberal

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Speaker 1: people devolve into behaviors that are everybody could be an

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Speaker 1: assholet yes, no, I mean nobody is like purely good.

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Speaker 1: There's everybody has a dark side. Now, I think that's

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Speaker 1: so interesting. Like I actually I was in a back

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Speaker 1: and forth on Twitter about you know, I don't know whatever.

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Speaker 1: We're talking to Tony Hale, who was at Twitter for

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Speaker 1: a long time and trying to figure out their content,

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Speaker 1: and anyway, we got into a conversation about like if

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Speaker 1: you look at places like Reddit and you're talking about

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Speaker 1: discord moderators, like you know, people human beings who are

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Speaker 1: like one, they decide there want they want to be

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Speaker 1: in a place for a very specific reason, not just randomly.

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Speaker 1: And two you've got people who are there to make

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Speaker 1: sure things stay on track or stay in a place

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Speaker 1: that's somewhat reasonable for everybody. It really matters. And like

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Speaker 1: I think that increasingly it just feels more like what

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Speaker 1: would you do in a normal human situation, right, Like

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Speaker 1: you wouldn't just let the party be completely open ended,

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Speaker 1: like anybody could be invited to it, and even if

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Speaker 1: somebody's a complete assholt the party, you just let them

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Speaker 1: keep doing it. Right, there's some sense of ofly you

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Speaker 1: just scale it down a little bit. If you make

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Speaker 1: it about like Okay, it's this group of people in

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Speaker 1: this place and there's rules, it's a becomes a lot

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Speaker 1: more manageable. So maybe you've got the right solution here,

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Speaker 1: And you know, it's it's hard to because it's not

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Speaker 1: just like what can't you do? You know, like we

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Speaker 1: have these whole community guidelines that we worked as a

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Speaker 1: group to come up with. And it's not just like

428
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,720
Speaker 1: no turf is um, no bigotry like that stuff is

429
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,919
Speaker 1: easy to moderate. It's more like, how do we not

430
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:24,480
Speaker 1: make this like an incredibly white space even if the

431
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 1: majority of the people who are there are white? Like,

432
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:28,440
Speaker 1: how do we descenter that? How do we not make

433
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:32,120
Speaker 1: it so incredibly us centric? What are the small things

434
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,240
Speaker 1: we can do to try to remind ourselves over and

435
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,000
Speaker 1: over again to try to like not just go with

436
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,919
Speaker 1: the status quo of how we already have conversations online.

437
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,720
Speaker 1: So it's hard, it's hardware, No, it is again, I'm

438
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:44,359
Speaker 1: saying that sounds like a lot of work. I'm like

439
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,840
Speaker 1: exhausted just hearing about it, just right. But here's the

440
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,560
Speaker 1: big thing is I don't have a company slack that

441
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,240
Speaker 1: I have to check into, so I'm not wasting my

442
00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:56,760
Speaker 1: time pretending to work, right, which used to take up

443
00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,479
Speaker 1: so much of my time. Now I actually work when

444
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:01,200
Speaker 1: I want to wear don't work when I don't want

445
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:02,919
Speaker 1: to work, and that frees up time to do the

446
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,280
Speaker 1: things that I actually want to do. Kind of sounds

447
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:07,639
Speaker 1: so so good now, I would say one of the

448
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,200
Speaker 1: things that you became very well known for is talking

449
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:14,320
Speaker 1: about burnout, which to me, everything you're saying makes me

450
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:19,000
Speaker 1: feel I'm like, I'm burning out just hearing about the discord,

451
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:21,760
Speaker 1: you know. But like, so you've written a lot about

452
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,359
Speaker 1: and talked a lot about a feeling of exhaustion, you know,

453
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:28,639
Speaker 1: sort of stretched thinness of this generation, Like, how do

454
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:30,199
Speaker 1: you avoid it with all the things that you have

455
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 1: to personally be responsible for. Well, first of all, I

456
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 1: think that one of the primary sources of burnout is

457
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,919
Speaker 1: lack of community, just generally, right, people who because they

458
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,480
Speaker 1: have been forced or feel like they have been forced

459
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,520
Speaker 1: to really dedicate themselves to working all of the time,

460
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:46,399
Speaker 1: and all of their mental energy goes into work, and

461
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 1: they feel bad if they're dedicating any extra time to

462
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 1: anything that isn't work. And then when they aren't working,

463
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,439
Speaker 1: they're so tired that the only thing they can do

464
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,679
Speaker 1: are like things that seem appealing but that aren't actually

465
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 1: the things they want to do, like scrolling their phone forever. Right, Yes,

466
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 1: that is a perfect example. It's like I'm doing it.

467
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 1: It feels good, but is it good? Is it good?

468
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:12,360
Speaker 1: And I have had to spend a lot of time

469
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 1: thinking about how do I mindfully like actually norrish community

470
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:18,879
Speaker 1: in my life that makes it so that I have

471
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,880
Speaker 1: things that I want to do besides working, and then

472
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 1: also give me that time away from work that is

473
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 1: really restorative and makes me feel like I have the

474
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,920
Speaker 1: safety net, right, like I have people, and so I've

475
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 1: done that in my like in person life with choices

476
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 1: about where we moved and like I don't have kids,

477
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 1: but we take care of my friends kids twice a

478
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,920
Speaker 1: week after school, Like that is an important thing. Like yeah,

479
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,680
Speaker 1: it's basically like the fun part. That's what I was

480
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 1: gonna say, Like that sounds like so much fun. I

481
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 1: mean I don't know how old they are, but like

482
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 1: kids are a blast their kindergarten in third grade. So

483
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 1: I walk over pick them up from school. We like

484
00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:58,879
Speaker 1: get to do the fun stuff and then right when

485
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 1: they get cranky. It's like that's definitely yeah. I was

486
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 1: gonna say, like definitely, Like it's like a babysitter mode.

487
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:05,920
Speaker 1: You're like, yeah, I had a blast of the kids,

488
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 1: like give me my twenty bucks, I'm out of here.

489
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 1: So I've done that in my real life in meaningful

490
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 1: ways and then in the community that and it sounds corny,

491
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:24,399
Speaker 1: but it really is a community that we have in

492
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:29,159
Speaker 1: this discord, like and as a subscriber community, like the

493
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,480
Speaker 1: threads are hundreds to thousands of comments every week, Like

494
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,159
Speaker 1: it is about stuff that is really meaningful to people's lives.

495
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 1: They are really seeking community. Twice a year, we raise

496
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 1: between twenty and thirty dollars in mutual aid, Like this

497
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 1: is a it's a real thing. And so when I'm

498
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 1: participating in the community, Yes, there are those harder parts

499
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 1: of like moderating and being like guys, stop being like

500
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:57,680
Speaker 1: so white bougie right now, or like whatever you know, um,

501
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,159
Speaker 1: But then it also is a source of community for

502
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:04,119
Speaker 1: me too. It's newshing. So if it ceased to feel

503
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 1: like that, I think I would step away from it.

504
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,399
Speaker 1: But for me right now, like it doesn't feel overwhelming.

505
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:12,960
Speaker 1: It feels like there are people who are also taking

506
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 1: labor off of my plate too, Like this is the

507
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,159
Speaker 1: reason that there are moderators who do this work for

508
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 1: comp subscriptions, you know, like it feels important to them,

509
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 1: you know, like Venomo the money. I could vent with

510
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 1: the money, but all of them are in the position

511
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: where they don't need extra money, so I'm not suggesting

512
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 1: you should. It makes sense, like it's like, okay, this

513
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:33,439
Speaker 1: is a bad example maybe, but I'm like, you know,

514
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,159
Speaker 1: in the Mechanical Keyboards Reddit, it used to be pretty small.

515
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 1: Actually now there's like a million people in it. But

516
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 1: for sure the people who were investing time and energy

517
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,160
Speaker 1: into it were there to like make it. They wanted

518
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 1: to make it a positive experience. And there's actually a

519
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 1: lot of Reddit communities are not read it is in

520
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 1: any way perfect, But they did figure out some basic

521
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 1: stuff on the Internet, which is people really want to

522
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: be part of, like to your point, a community, and

523
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 1: when you're there, you invest send it in a way

524
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:02,440
Speaker 1: that when you're a part of it that you might

525
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:06,160
Speaker 1: not if it's like this kind of free floating anything

526
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,920
Speaker 1: goes space like a for instance, like a Twitter. Yes,

527
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 1: so I get that. I get that. I mean, like

528
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 1: any community that I'm a part of, and there are

529
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:17,119
Speaker 1: very few because I'm horrible loser, but there aren't a

530
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 1: lot of places on the Internet that feel pleasant anymore.

531
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 1: So maybe I'll have to join your discord and hang out.

532
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:25,360
Speaker 1: I mean, you should come and look. It's like it's

533
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,880
Speaker 1: an interesting place. There's like some thread that would make

534
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 1: total sense in terms of like interests, Like I don't know,

535
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: there's like a running thread that some people like that's

536
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 1: the only place to hang out out is the running thread.

537
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 1: They're like, I want to hang out with other people

538
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 1: who run, who think about running this way, which is like,

539
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 1: let's take a load of rest and also let's let's

540
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 1: congratulate each other. But it's just like not people who

541
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 1: run until they throw up. There, like people who run reasonably.

542
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 1: They're not fast. Holes is the name for like a

543
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 1: certain type of I've never heard that before, and I

544
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,479
Speaker 1: didn't realize this is that a lot of online spaces

545
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 1: for running are incredibly toxics. So it's people who really

546
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: some of that community. Yeah, yeah, really toxic. It's so

547
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,360
Speaker 1: funny how any online space for anything is toxic. It's

548
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 1: like any Babies collectors forum. Actually it was extremely toxic

549
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 1: and political turns out well, and you know, like the

550
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 1: best example of this is like the knitting forums are

551
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 1: incredibly toxic. I just saw something I don't know what

552
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 1: it was. I was like randomly seeing something about letters

553
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 1: to a knitting magazine about some people are really angry

554
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 1: because they have like modern like knitting patterns in it.

555
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 1: But then other people are like, well, I'm a young

556
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 1: knitter and I think this is really cool that these

557
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 1: are I was like, wow, this seems so contentious. People

558
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 1: are always in a community. People are always going to

559
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 1: like push back against different things no matter what. But

560
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 1: if you can figure out, like, okay, how do we

561
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 1: come to a consensus when we disagree about something like

562
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 1: what does that look like? How do we how do

563
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 1: we do that? Right? So, Okay, we've talked a lot

564
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 1: about your many many online communities that you have to

565
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 1: deal with, which actually sounds like you're doing very well with.

566
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 1: So tell me about the podcast and tell me about

567
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 1: the sub stack, because it feels like, you know, I

568
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 1: think it would have been very easy for you, given

569
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:22,479
Speaker 1: that you have written so much and talked so much

570
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 1: about this whole like culture burnout and like work life

571
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 1: balance and stuff like that. Obviously, just to do more

572
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 1: of that. But tell me about like the culture study

573
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 1: world that you're in now or what you're trying to

574
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 1: do with it. It is so obvious to me in

575
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 1: hindsight that it should have been a sociologist, right, because

576
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 1: I I really just I'm fascinated by the way that

577
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 1: society works, how we set up different functions within our society,

578
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 1: how we work within those functions. It's all that sort

579
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 1: of thing, and media studies actually has a lot of

580
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 1: overlap depending on the department that it's in with sociology.

581
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 1: And I think like in my current work, I am

582
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 1: really engaging in a lot of like basic sociological questions

583
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 1: of like why is that thing the way that it

584
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 1: is right? Like how did we arrange it that way?

585
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 1: And who does it benefit? Who does it harm? But

586
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 1: also like isn't this weird? Like making the things that

587
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: we understand is the status quo kind of making them

588
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 1: seem weird and questioning them and how they came to

589
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 1: be right. And there's a couple of sociologists that I

590
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 1: really am sometimes think about sociology is like reverse gaslighting,

591
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 1: so being like, you know, it isn't it isn't normal,

592
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 1: Like this is this is a construction the way that

593
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: we've come to Wait, what is reverse Explain reverse gaslighting

594
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: conceptually to me, because it sounds like something I should understand,

595
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 1: but I can't grasp what that would be. Right, Okay,

596
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 1: so let's talk about like mothering in America right now,

597
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 1: where everyone's just like, yeah, it's hard, but you got this,

598
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 1: like Mama, you got this, like like you're made for this,

599
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 1: like you're going to get through it, you know, just

600
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 1: like continual messages of support is that when you can

601
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 1: do it all? You know, that's gaslighting that like you've

602
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 1: got this, right, Like the reverse gaslighting is no, you

603
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 1: don't have this, and here are all the reasons why

604
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 1: you don't have it, like heure, all the ways that

605
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 1: have been set up to make this incredibly hard for

606
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:19,719
Speaker 1: people trying to mother to parent in America today. So

607
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 1: it's like breaking down the gaslighting to reveal the truth

608
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 1: or like I mean, if we don't want to use

609
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 1: the term gaslighting because I think sometimes people like stop

610
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 1: listening when you hear that term. It's breaking down things

611
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 1: that we have normalized, right right, and saying like, Okay,

612
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 1: how did we come to normalize this? Why is it

613
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 1: actually strange? And like who does it benefit when we

614
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 1: normalize these things? Like there's always a critique of structures

615
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: of power. I think inherent to sociology too. It's also

616
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 1: just like everything is really interesting if you can just

617
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 1: push a little bit more. And this is true. And

618
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 1: the way that I think about celebrity the newsletter is

619
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 1: called culture study is kind of a fun cultural studies,

620
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 1: which is looking at things that sometimes people are like,

621
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 1: there's nothing interesting here. It's just an artifactive pulp culture.

622
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 1: It's just an artifact of material culture, just just the

623
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 1: thing that is around us and saying, actually, there's a

624
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 1: whole lot of interesting stuff to unpack here. So whether

625
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 1: it's the construction of a celebrity or when I'm thinking

626
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 1: through right now, is like what happened to the team Babysitter,

627
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 1: Like there's a lot to unpack there. Oh my god,

628
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 1: I personally would like to know. I'm fascinated by this

629
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: question because so my daughters eight and for a while

630
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: we were reading the Babysitters Club books. Yeah, yeah, I

631
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 1: would imagine you've read, or at least you maybe revisiting

632
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 1: for and it's like these girls are like thirteen or

633
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 1: something or twelve, and they're like babysitting whole groups of kids.

634
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 1: And I'm like, n Zelda was younger, you know, I

635
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: couldn't imagine having like a thirteen year old over here

636
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 1: to like babysitter and be like, okay, bye, we're going

637
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 1: out for the day. I did that starting when I

638
00:32:55,440 --> 00:33:00,120
Speaker 1: was twelve. I was one year old. Cool. Yeah, it's crazy. No.

639
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: I talked to Laura about it all the time, and

640
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 1: she's like, oh, yeah, I did that. Like me and

641
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 1: my friend Emily would go over and we babysit these

642
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 1: like three kids. And I'm like, that's nuts. I mean,

643
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: I think we've learned a lot about I don't know,

644
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 1: maybe we're wrong. I feel like in the seventies and

645
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 1: in the eighties, people didn't know that much. No, I

646
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 1: think it's actually okay to have a thirteen year old babysitter,

647
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 1: especially now that we have cell votes. Act feel very nervous,

648
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 1: like right, but that's because of like hyper parenting norms

649
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 1: like and I'm not criticizing them, and they've just been

650
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 1: really normalized. But we've changed our whole perspective on kids,

651
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 1: like like you can't leave a child alone in a

652
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 1: car even for like two minutes now, like the amount

653
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 1: of time I spent in the car when my mom

654
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 1: was going to the grocery store right now, Oh yeah,

655
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 1: you just be they just be like you don't want

656
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 1: to go to the store, like you're just gonna sit

657
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 1: here and like and I used to do that all

658
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 1: the time. But now if you leave your kids sit

659
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 1: in the car, even if you're only got for like

660
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 1: five minutes or ten minutes, you like you could literally

661
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 1: be arrested for it. So I feel like there's one

662
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 1: of these things. Yes, I agree, there's definitely an over

663
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 1: do you say over parenting as that was the term used,

664
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 1: or like hyper parenting ROMs, like just like you know,

665
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 1: like a high intensity parenting, right, I don't feel that way,

666
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 1: Like I don't feel like we're I mean, of course

667
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 1: a person would say they don't feel like they're hyper

668
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 1: parenting or whatever. But it is interesting, like I don't know,

669
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 1: maybe the world feels so much more complicated. I know,

670
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 1: so many more horrible things than I feel like my

671
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 1: parents knew at this age. Like, I mean, my parents

672
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 1: certainly were, I mean, they're definitely worried people. They would

673
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,760
Speaker 1: voice the most insane worries about any subject, but like still,

674
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 1: I feel like they weren't as aware of all of

675
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 1: the possible things that could happen in the world. And

676
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 1: now we seem so aware. I mean it's kind of

677
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 1: like the Twitter mind, right, like where you can see

678
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 1: every bad thing happening all at once. Yeah, this is

679
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 1: a sociological finding that like when there is more violence

680
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:51,720
Speaker 1: on television and you pull people after watching more violence

681
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 1: on television, the perception of violence in their neighborhood or

682
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 1: in their city goes up, and you can make people

683
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 1: believe there's more cry and then there actually is. Or

684
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 1: the way that like on house people, like if you

685
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,240
Speaker 1: see an on housed person, even if they're not committing

686
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 1: a crime, they up the perception of crime in an area.

687
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 1: So like all these things that have bearing I think

688
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 1: on our on our fears and all that sort of thing.

689
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 1: But another huge thing is even parents who are totally

690
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 1: on board, especially with like a fifteen year old or

691
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 1: a sixteen year old, there is no teen babysitting supply,

692
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,359
Speaker 1: and that is also hyper parenting because all of these

693
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,880
Speaker 1: kids are scheduled to the gills, don't have any space

694
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 1: too babysit, and that is a problem in it of itself.

695
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 1: It's funny, I mean, you're still on topic for me,

696
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:42,280
Speaker 1: but we actually have a neighbor whose daughter is sixteen

697
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 1: and we've been trying to pin her down for some

698
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 1: babysitting and it's been very difficult to schedule her. And

699
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 1: I think there's I mean, listen, you know, it is

700
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 1: a busy time. We're all, you know, we're cramming for

701
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 1: the I don't know whatever tests that sixteen year olds

702
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 1: are taking. But p s A T p s A T. Sure.

703
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:00,400
Speaker 1: I mean there's not a lot of free time anymore

704
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 1: because you can just look at the internet. I mean,

705
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:05,879
Speaker 1: I don't know what your teen experience was like. But

706
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 1: like I baby said, all the time, because there wasn't

707
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 1: anything else to do. Um, I did not do a

708
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,240
Speaker 1: lot of babysitting. Well that's also a gender thing. That's

709
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:16,760
Speaker 1: pretty messed up. I should say I did a couple

710
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 1: of babysitting gigs. I will tell you boys are great babysitters.

711
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 1: I thought I was excellent. We mostly watched movies, to

712
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,760
Speaker 1: be honest, totally well, and that's what most people want.

713
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 1: So the first time I saw The Little Mermaid was

714
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 1: while I was babysitting, and I was like, I've never

715
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 1: seen this movie before, and the kids loved it, and

716
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 1: I'm like, wow, this is very interesting. It's pretty pretty enjoyable. Yeah. No,

717
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 1: I think that the kids who need babysitting and then

718
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 1: also the ones who would be doing the babysitting, And

719
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: there's a real understanding that all time can be kind

720
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 1: of colonized for self enrichment and like lines on a resume,

721
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 1: and because babysitting can't be a way to get into college,

722
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,319
Speaker 1: it's it's devalued in that list of things that should

723
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 1: be taking up kids time. Right, I feel like babysitting

724
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 1: should tell if you get into college, Like I think

725
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 1: if you're good at it, like, it's pretty impressive. I mean,

726
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 1: kids are insane and taking care of them is very hard. Yeah.

727
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 1: I also think it just generally gives you incredible perspective,

728
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 1: Like so many parents I know who have never changed

729
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 1: a diaper before they have kids, and then they're like

730
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 1: what happened? Uh? And yeah, you can learn all of

731
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 1: those skills. But I think that having a lot of

732
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,800
Speaker 1: experience with it also makes you make a more informed decision.

733
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 1: Don't you think that this idea of like it being

734
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:30,920
Speaker 1: hard to find a teen babysitter also has something to

735
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 1: do with I feel like we've like really fucked up communities,

736
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 1: like real world communities in a big way. Like obviously

737
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 1: the pandemic had an impact on how we associate with

738
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 1: the people around us, But I think the existence and

739
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 1: I don't want to blame everything on the Internet, but

740
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 1: it definitely is way easier now, much easier than ever before,

741
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 1: to totally disengage with the people around you, like, particularly

742
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:56,839
Speaker 1: if you don't live in a major city, right. I mean,

743
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 1: this is to me, like the root of a lot

744
00:37:58,440 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 1: of the problems in the world is like you're never

745
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 1: worse to like interact with other people, and if like

746
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 1: you have to interact with other people that are not

747
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 1: like you, it's very easy to not care or think

748
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 1: about them at all. And I do think the Internet

749
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 1: is part of it. I think like Amazon is part

750
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,359
Speaker 1: of it. I think like this whole sort of disconnected

751
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 1: way that we live is like not to go all

752
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 1: the way back to Twitter or anything. But I had

753
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: Tolentino on and we talked about this, that there's this

754
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:24,800
Speaker 1: conception of the Internet being this town square or Twitter

755
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 1: being a town square, and it's like a town square

756
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:30,720
Speaker 1: is a physical place where you interact with the people

757
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 1: that you live near, right, And it's like a very

758
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 1: specific kind of personal interaction, like if you think historically

759
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 1: about what they're like, and we've sort of removed a

760
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 1: lot of that. Like I only just met my next

761
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:44,760
Speaker 1: door neighbor. I live, you know, about an hour outside

762
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,840
Speaker 1: of New York and I've lived here for eight years

763
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 1: and I only just physically interact with my next door

764
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 1: neighbor for the first time, like three months ago. I

765
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:59,439
Speaker 1: want to point to another sociologist, Robert Putnam, whose book

766
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 1: Bowling Alone from two thousand, Like he didn't theorize this.

767
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 1: There are other people who had kind of been talking

768
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: about this before, but he brought together a bunch of

769
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 1: data and put it all together to say, like, here's

770
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 1: what has happened to our loose ties, which are like

771
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 1: the people that you just kind of know, right your

772
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 1: next door neighbor, the people the people would go to

773
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 1: church with. It's called bowling alone because people used to

774
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:25,320
Speaker 1: be part of things like if you grew up in

775
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:29,840
Speaker 1: America and your grandparents generation that generation were joiners, Like

776
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 1: they were part of so many different clubs, you know,

777
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,320
Speaker 1: the Elks, the Moose, and in addition to whatever religious

778
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:39,880
Speaker 1: organization that they were part of, and that was just

779
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 1: the norm, that was the status quo. And there are

780
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:45,959
Speaker 1: many reasons why that cohesion, that social cohesion really rose

781
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 1: after World War Two and stayed strong for several decades

782
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 1: and then began to fall apart over the course of

783
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 1: the seventies, eighties, and nineties. And I think the Internet

784
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 1: is an accelerant, but also there's so many other things

785
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:01,880
Speaker 1: that were insisting in that basically, like when people no

786
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 1: longer feel compelled to go to church all the time,

787
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 1: may because of other things happening with face structures or

788
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 1: just loosening of moral structures that make it so like, oh,

789
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 1: I don't have to go to church every weekend to

790
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 1: be a part of a community. Actually, like I can

791
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 1: live with someone before I get married, right, There's so

792
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 1: many reasons for the decline of these and I think,

793
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 1: you know, and a lot of these organizations, like the

794
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,840
Speaker 1: ku Klux Klan was one of these organizations, people feel

795
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,360
Speaker 1: like they were part of something. Are you recommending just

796
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 1: to make sure I'm hearing this, you're recommending more like

797
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 1: there's nothing like, you know, purely good about being in

798
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:45,279
Speaker 1: the same community as someone necessarily, but that stuff, and

799
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 1: it also coincides with the need to spend more time,

800
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 1: more hours working in order for a family to survive, right,

801
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 1: So if you're spending all of this time working and

802
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 1: then when you get home you're so tired. And then

803
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 1: we also have all of these new standards of parenting,

804
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 1: especially for like middle class parents, in order to get

805
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 1: your kid ready for college in order to hopefully have

806
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 1: them be more successful theoretically than you are, or at

807
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 1: least equal successful. Like, all of those things come together

808
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 1: to really create these highly individualized situations where people are

809
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 1: desperate for community and have no idea how to make it.

810
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:23,800
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, there's a lot of people

811
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 1: that I really admire who talk a lot about what

812
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 1: it takes to build community. Garrett Box to rates things

813
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:30,480
Speaker 1: like the White Pages is one of my favorites, but

814
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,359
Speaker 1: sometimes it's weird and awkward and boring. Like I think

815
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,439
Speaker 1: that we also have this expectation that if we sign

816
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 1: up to go to something, it should be really compelling

817
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 1: and like all about us the way, right, Like it

818
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 1: should be like an instagram able experience, because some of

819
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 1: the work of community building is like showing up for

820
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 1: the library committee meeting and just it's kind of boring,

821
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:56,759
Speaker 1: but that's how you meet people. Sometimes it's doing boring stuff. No,

822
00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 1: I mean it's interesting, Like the religion thing is is

823
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 1: so fascinating because it is kind of one of the

824
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 1: things that's like a very clear forcing mechanism to make

825
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 1: you interact with your community typically, right, like a church

826
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 1: going community is going to be people from around you

827
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 1: who are going to the same place, and even if

828
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 1: you're not religious or whatever, you're just you end up

829
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:17,919
Speaker 1: there and you end up meeting people. But like, I mean,

830
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 1: I would never argue that, like we should have more religion,

831
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 1: Like I think that it's good that people feel they

832
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 1: have the option to not be religious that they don't

833
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,360
Speaker 1: want to, but we have not replaced that with anything

834
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,359
Speaker 1: really meaningful and and in fact, everything we do kind

835
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 1: of reinforces that, like the less you interact with people,

836
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 1: the better you can be, or like the better it

837
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:37,719
Speaker 1: is for you. And to me, it's like it's a

838
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 1: very political thing. Like when you think about some of

839
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 1: the major political problems of our time or the cultural

840
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 1: things that are happening, like it's very easy to see

841
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 1: that we've just become very focused on ourselves and everything

842
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 1: kind of reinforces that. Well, it's defensive Crouch, right, It's

843
00:42:56,040 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 1: like everything feels so tenuous economically, societally in so many

844
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,320
Speaker 1: different ways that you have to be on the defensive

845
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 1: and really just focus your energy and preservational energy on

846
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:10,319
Speaker 1: me and mine, right. And I see this a lot, right,

847
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:12,360
Speaker 1: And that's like I don't want to fund anything that

848
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 1: isn't benefiting me in mine. Right. It's very selfish, right,

849
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:19,919
Speaker 1: It's like a weirdly like obviously selfish thing to just go, well,

850
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 1: sure there's a lot of stuff going on, but that's

851
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:24,319
Speaker 1: not my problem. Like I need to figure out how

852
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,719
Speaker 1: I can get what I need. That's not my problem. Right.

853
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 1: I have seen a voting strategy that I that I like,

854
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:32,279
Speaker 1: which is that you vote in the interests of the

855
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 1: most vulnerable in your right. And that's a very different

856
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:39,360
Speaker 1: voting strategy than vote for things that immediately benefit me

857
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 1: in mine. You are reminding me of a few years ago.

858
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 1: I mean, Laura's dad. He's a person who like kind

859
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,480
Speaker 1: of never voted. There's a kind of a certain like

860
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 1: older person in this country who's like they're all bumbs

861
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:55,320
Speaker 1: or whatever, you know, which like to be fair probably accurate, um.

862
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:57,280
Speaker 1: And he sort of sat it out and I remember,

863
00:43:57,400 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 1: you know, Laura talking to him and saying, like, you're

864
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 1: not vote for you, You're voting for like Zelda. If

865
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:04,400
Speaker 1: you think about voting for like our kid and the

866
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:06,279
Speaker 1: world she's going to live in, like you can just

867
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 1: completely think differently about why you're voting or what you're

868
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 1: voting for. And he definitely was like, oh yeah, Like

869
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 1: I never thought of it that way. And I think

870
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:16,920
Speaker 1: it requires some level of empathy to be able to

871
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 1: go what would it be like if I were that

872
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 1: person and let me think about it for a second

873
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:24,839
Speaker 1: and actually care, which I think it's become increasingly hard

874
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 1: to do. I will say, there's this whole school thing,

875
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:29,799
Speaker 1: and during the pandemic, it became really obvious to me

876
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 1: how much we lost. And of course I have a

877
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 1: perspective because we have, you know, a child who's like

878
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 1: had just gotten into like the public school system here,

879
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,919
Speaker 1: and and you couldn't go to the school, like there's

880
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:44,400
Speaker 1: a period where they weren't going, but then like you

881
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 1: couldn't go in, We couldn't meet any of her teachers,

882
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:48,959
Speaker 1: Like we couldn't talk to the principle, Like we didn't

883
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,280
Speaker 1: know the other parents because nobody was allowed to assemble

884
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:53,399
Speaker 1: in the same place. So it's like, we have all

885
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 1: this stuff happening with religion, We have the Internet, we

886
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 1: have like modern society, and Amazon will deliver you anything.

887
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 1: You no longer have to go to this or for it.

888
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 1: But then the pandemic kind of hit, and it was

889
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:05,720
Speaker 1: like even some of these places where you still were

890
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 1: finding yourself interacting with people in a way that you

891
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 1: never would have expected or you know, you sort of

892
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 1: forced to in some way, went away. And I think

893
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 1: that kind of hastened whatever state we're in now. It's

894
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 1: like we're in a very dark zone, right. But I

895
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 1: think it also like highlighted how much we need those

896
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,920
Speaker 1: bonds too, so it hastened their decline and also accelerated

897
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 1: the need for them. You know. I think when I

898
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 1: was talking to people about the team babysitter thing, there

899
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 1: were some people who said, you know, because I don't

900
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:40,760
Speaker 1: live in the proximity of either of my parents, and

901
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 1: and or like my parents aren't longer with us, like

902
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 1: all sorts of different reasons. If you don't have immediate

903
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 1: familial childcare. They're like, we don't have any childcare either

904
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:52,880
Speaker 1: can't afford it or we can't find it. And they're like,

905
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 1: this has affected my life in many ways, like it

906
00:45:57,200 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 1: has affected our marriage, it has affected my personal health,

907
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 1: Like people need time away from their children, I think,

908
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:05,880
Speaker 1: and it's meaningful, and then they find themselves thinking like

909
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 1: I can't you know, I can't build community, like to

910
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 1: find the babysitters, to be away from my kid, because

911
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 1: I can't be away from my kid, Like it's a

912
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 1: chicken and the egg kind of self fulfilling prophecy. And

913
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 1: a lot of parents in particular have found themselves mired

914
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 1: in that situation. And there are things that we could

915
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:29,279
Speaker 1: do structurally to make community building easier, whether it's you know,

916
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 1: funding childcare, is infrastructure, or or just things that make

917
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:36,400
Speaker 1: it so that you're not just where you're not in

918
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 1: that defensive crouch all the times that make that possible.

919
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:41,840
Speaker 1: I mean, it's funny, big you go back to it,

920
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 1: and you could go, well, it's kind of capitalism. Yeah,

921
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:47,279
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to be like, well, if

922
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 1: we could just do away with capitalism, but there is

923
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 1: an argument not to do away with it, Like if

924
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 1: we just could slightly rearrange the way we have ordered

925
00:46:56,160 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 1: priorities in our society, a lot of stuff might be

926
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 1: quickly alleviated. But meanwhile, this is we're not doing that apparently, um,

927
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 1: and we're unfortunately where we're almost out of time, like

928
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 1: I have, I feel like there's a million things that

929
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:13,440
Speaker 1: we can talk about, No, for sure, like I we

930
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:14,920
Speaker 1: did like a full half an hour old Like I

931
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:18,120
Speaker 1: don't even know what septic ts, yeah, exceptic tanks, which

932
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 1: I think is honestly some some of the best stuff

933
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 1: we've done on this podcast yet. But before you go,

934
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:26,240
Speaker 1: if somebody wants to engage with the Anne Helen Peterson

935
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 1: Extended universe, like what is it? Where to start? You

936
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 1: have so many things going on? Where should a person start? Well?

937
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 1: The new podcast is work appropriate. It's from Cricket Media,

938
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 1: and I have heard it alternately described as like Delilah,

939
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 1: Like you know Deliva, the like late night romance UM

940
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 1: talk show that you can get syndicated across America. What now,

941
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 1: I have no idea what you're talking about? What is Delilah?

942
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 1: Listeners to the show will know Delilah for work or

943
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 1: car talk for work, Like basically it's an advice show

944
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:00,879
Speaker 1: car talk. I do under yeah, but now I'm really

945
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 1: interested in Delilah. Look it up like a Delilah talk

946
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:09,759
Speaker 1: And really what it is is it's like looking at

947
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 1: work with people who don't have n b as, like

948
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 1: who aren't like you know, publishing in Harvard Business Review

949
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 1: and like LinkedIn influencers, but are just trying to make

950
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:23,879
Speaker 1: work better. And so people right in with their work

951
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 1: quandaries and me and a co host go through and

952
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:30,399
Speaker 1: try to address them to try to make work survivable

953
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 1: sustainable in different ways. I love this idea, yeah, yeah,

954
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:40,280
Speaker 1: And then my newsletter culture Study and Helena's subject dot com.

955
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:43,520
Speaker 1: I like when people are not just one thing. I

956
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 1: think like we have too many people, and I think

957
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:47,720
Speaker 1: by the world and the Internet to some extent, expects

958
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:49,839
Speaker 1: people to go like you just do this one thing

959
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:51,440
Speaker 1: and that's who you are. I think a lot of

960
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:53,440
Speaker 1: people think of you and you're like, oh, you're the

961
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 1: burnout person. But there's so much more to talk about,

962
00:48:57,160 --> 00:48:59,040
Speaker 1: and like you're so smart about this stuff. Like just

963
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 1: this conversation is and utterly fascinating. We can talk so

964
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 1: much more about babysitting. I mean just I know when

965
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 1: you look at your sub stack, I feel like you're

966
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:10,279
Speaker 1: doing that where you're not just on this like a

967
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 1: single thing, but it is like there is a lens

968
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 1: and it's your lens, and your lens is super interesting,

969
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:17,080
Speaker 1: and so you have to come back. We have to

970
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:19,799
Speaker 1: talk more, because this feels like part one of a

971
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 1: multi part for sure. We have so much more to

972
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:23,920
Speaker 1: talk about. I mean, I got to hear what happens

973
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 1: when you get the new septic tank in, because like,

974
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever met anybody with a brand

975
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:32,960
Speaker 1: new septic tank, to be honest with you, so please do.

976
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 1: The great thing is that you're not gonna be able

977
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:37,319
Speaker 1: to see anything else. It's one of those home investments

978
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:40,000
Speaker 1: where you're like, oh, we just like spend a bunch

979
00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:42,200
Speaker 1: of money and it's something that will never affect my

980
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 1: daily life except for the fact that we will not

981
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:47,759
Speaker 1: have a poop catastrophe in our backyard. And I think

982
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:50,840
Speaker 1: that is the best you could ask for in life,

983
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 1: is you don't see it, but you have no poop

984
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:56,839
Speaker 1: catastrophes because of it. And Helen, thank you so much

985
00:49:56,880 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 1: for doing this. I really appreciate. I've super serious, heavily

986
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:03,239
Speaker 1: enjoyed this conversation, and you have to come back and

987
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:06,759
Speaker 1: uh and discuss things even beyond the septic tank. I

988
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:19,399
Speaker 1: very much look forward to it. Thank you so much. Well,

989
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:21,960
Speaker 1: that was fun. Oh my god, that was the best.

990
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:25,200
Speaker 1: We have to have many more conversations with than Helen,

991
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:27,759
Speaker 1: I think. Yeah. I have to say I've been such

992
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 1: a huge fan of hers for you know, ten plus years.

993
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 1: It's a long time. Every couple of years, I feel

994
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:40,360
Speaker 1: like she hones in on a new expertise topic and

995
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:45,080
Speaker 1: and it's just has the most interesting way of presenting

996
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 1: her findings. That's all true, I believe. But also I'm

997
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 1: I'm kind of on the edge of my seat about

998
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 1: the septic tank. You know, I'm thankful that I don't

999
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:57,719
Speaker 1: have to worry about a septic tank. Oh wow, that's right.

1000
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 1: It's Thanksgiving right now. This episode is actually out on Thanksgiving.

1001
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:05,080
Speaker 1: This is the way I say thanks to all the

1002
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 1: listeners by giving them more of me. This most selfless

1003
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 1: thing I can think of doing, to be honest, is

1004
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 1: just putting myself out there for them. No, yeah, it's Thanksgiving.

1005
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:17,799
Speaker 1: It's a weird time to feel thankful about anything, to

1006
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 1: be honest, I mean, I guess we're still alive. That's good,

1007
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:25,720
Speaker 1: you know, no, no nuclear war so far. Pretty good. Yeah,

1008
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:28,760
Speaker 1: that's something that I used to worry about a lot more.

1009
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 1: I've lately, I've been more worried about it. For some

1010
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:38,200
Speaker 1: that's like the older I get, the less concerned I

1011
00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:41,720
Speaker 1: am with being wiped out. Then you should not read

1012
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 1: any articles about the war in Ukraine. It's my recommendation.

1013
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:48,279
Speaker 1: Well it's yeah, it's not that I don't think it's

1014
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,479
Speaker 1: less likely to happen that I think you care less,

1015
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:55,000
Speaker 1: Like yeah, yeah, yes, wipe me out in a flash

1016
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:58,960
Speaker 1: of white hot fire. Good, you know, is it? I

1017
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 1: don't know. There's only one way to find out. I

1018
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:05,160
Speaker 1: think very dark stuff for Thanksgiving, extremely dark, but um, yeah,

1019
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:07,280
Speaker 1: what don't you know. Listen, I'm thankful for my landlines,

1020
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:10,520
Speaker 1: my new layout lines, and uh, you know, I just

1021
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:13,919
Speaker 1: think Thanksgivings a perfect time to actually be thinking about

1022
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:15,839
Speaker 1: all this stuff for you about like scaling down life.

1023
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:18,320
Speaker 1: It's one of my favorite times of the year, and

1024
00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:21,879
Speaker 1: there's always a lot to do, and then you get

1025
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:23,839
Speaker 1: to hang out with people. And I guess I'm lucky.

1026
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:26,280
Speaker 1: I have a kind of privileged view of Thanksgiving because

1027
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 1: I don't have any relatives that show up that are

1028
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:33,920
Speaker 1: like horrible, you know, somehow I've lucked out. And I

1029
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 1: say this in this year, it'll they'll probably some wild

1030
00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:37,799
Speaker 1: card situation. But I know a lot of people go

1031
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:41,399
Speaker 1: home for Thanksgiving or whatever, it's very fraught because there's

1032
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 1: some like uncle. It's always like the uncle who's like

1033
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 1: racist and a Trump voter or whatever. But um, I

1034
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:51,880
Speaker 1: don't have that. All of my uncles are democratic social

1035
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 1: I have that, but they're not outspoken, so they just

1036
00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:59,680
Speaker 1: stay quiet because they know how outnosed they are. I

1037
00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:02,440
Speaker 1: think that's about as good as you can expect, really

1038
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:05,040
Speaker 1: in those situations. You know, it's because the thing about

1039
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:06,680
Speaker 1: it is, if you're friends or something you find out

1040
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:08,440
Speaker 1: they're like a Nazi, you can always be like, well,

1041
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 1: we're not gonna be friends anymore. But yeah, with your family,

1042
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 1: you might end up at a wedding with them or

1043
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:16,520
Speaker 1: a Thanksgiving dinner, and then you've got to tolerate their

1044
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:19,919
Speaker 1: terrible opinions. So I think if they don't say anything,

1045
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:22,719
Speaker 1: that's actually the best possible, the best. Yeah, that's what

1046
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:24,879
Speaker 1: you're thinking for all right, Well, I think we should

1047
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:26,680
Speaker 1: wrap this up. I mean, frankly, all of this is

1048
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:30,319
Speaker 1: making me think about eating some eating some food. What's

1049
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:34,439
Speaker 1: your essential Thanksgiving dish? You mean, like the Thanksgiving dish

1050
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:37,879
Speaker 1: I can't live without? Well, Laura makes these things called

1051
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:41,319
Speaker 1: spinach balls, which are like a ball of spinach and

1052
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:45,960
Speaker 1: bread and cheese. Uh, and then they're baked and they

1053
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:51,000
Speaker 1: are just unbelievably good. It's like a ball of Thanksgiving

1054
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:53,600
Speaker 1: in my opinion. What about you? Do you have a

1055
00:53:53,640 --> 00:54:00,680
Speaker 1: favorite Thanksgiving? I love cranberry sauce. My mom's pool on

1056
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:05,720
Speaker 1: the stove, cranberry sauce, never from the can. And then

1057
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:08,920
Speaker 1: when I moved out here, I told her I was

1058
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:11,600
Speaker 1: making cranberry sauce. I called her for the recipe. We're

1059
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:15,839
Speaker 1: on the phone for like an hour. I'm confused. Her

1060
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:19,719
Speaker 1: directions are kind of vague. Keep asking like more specifics,

1061
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:22,200
Speaker 1: and then eventually she goes, I don't know. It's on

1062
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:25,160
Speaker 1: the back of the bag. It's just it's just the

1063
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:30,600
Speaker 1: ocean spray very recipe. I'm not a big cranberry sauce person.

1064
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:33,040
Speaker 1: Have I ever even had it. It's the thing that

1065
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:35,200
Speaker 1: I'm wondering I'm going to have some this year. But

1066
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:38,520
Speaker 1: the flavor tart start, Yeah, and you put it on something.

1067
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:40,759
Speaker 1: You don't need to buy it, so you can put

1068
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:44,120
Speaker 1: it on you garnish something with the cranberry sauce, yeah,

1069
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:46,320
Speaker 1: or you or you just eat it in a bowl

1070
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:49,160
Speaker 1: for days. You spoon it out into your mouth and

1071
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:51,399
Speaker 1: from a bowl. That doesn't sound right to me, but

1072
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:55,640
Speaker 1: fair enough. You know, everybody's got there something as they say, well,

1073
00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:58,920
Speaker 1: that's what I'm gonna do. That's great. Sound very dismissive,

1074
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:02,560
Speaker 1: like get good you do you? Okay, have your bowl

1075
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 1: of cranberry sauce. It does sound. Now I'm signing for

1076
00:55:04,520 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 1: a sort of intreat. I'm gonna you know what, I'm

1077
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:08,400
Speaker 1: gonna report back about the cranberry sauce in the next episode.

1078
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:11,319
Speaker 1: I think I'm gonna give you my my take on

1079
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:13,680
Speaker 1: cranberry sauce. In fact, the next episode will probably just

1080
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:18,000
Speaker 1: be one hour of talking about cranberry sauce. I would

1081
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:25,520
Speaker 1: love it. All right, Well, that is our show for

1082
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 1: this week. We'll be back next week with more what future.

1083
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:30,680
Speaker 1: And as always, I wish you and your family the

1084
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:33,000
Speaker 1: very best, and I hope they don't need too much

1085
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:36,960
Speaker 1: Thanksgiving dinner because think you get very, very sick.