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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg's Surveillance Podcast. I'm Tom Keane. Along

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Speaker 1: with Jonathan Ferrell and Lisa Brawmowitz Jaily, we bring you

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Speaker 1: insight from the best and economics, finance, investment, and international relations.

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Speaker 1: Find Bloomberg Surveillance on Apple Podcast, Suncloud, Bloomberg dot Com,

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Speaker 1: and of course, on the Bloomberg Terminal. Bob Miller, head

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Speaker 1: of America's Fundamental fixed income truly with decades of experience,

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Speaker 1: Bob Miller, what is the symbolism if the Lehman Barclays

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Total Return aggregate index breaks down to new lower

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Speaker 1: price and a higher yield, how do you redefine the

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Speaker 1: bear market if we get that technical breakdown? Well, good morning, Tom,

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Speaker 1: I hope all of you are well. It's good to

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Speaker 1: be with you. Um. Look, I I we we think

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Speaker 1: that yields are now reasonable. So yes, they can you know,

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Speaker 1: prices can go down and yields can go higher from here.

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Speaker 1: But but we're in the range of reasonable fixed income offers.

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Speaker 1: You know, some some reasonably attractive opportunities today after for

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Speaker 1: the first time since two thousand and eighteen UM and

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Speaker 1: and certainly after the period of of no opportunity two

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Speaker 1: years ago and a year ago. So you can build

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Speaker 1: a high quality portfolio that has a four to five

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Speaker 1: percent yield, including treasuries, you know, high quality credit even

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Speaker 1: high quality adds some high quality high yield in the

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Speaker 1: eight and a half to nine percent range. You can

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Speaker 1: build a pretty attractive portfolio for the first time in years,

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Speaker 1: and specifically in US fixed income. And we think that

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Speaker 1: that's uh, that's something that investors ought to be thinking

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Speaker 1: about for the next year. No doubt, things have been

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Speaker 1: ugly this year, and and there's no near term relief

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Speaker 1: in sight. But valuations matter, and and these valuations look

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Speaker 1: look reasonable to us. They look reasonable compared perhaps to

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Speaker 1: a year ago. They won't necessarily look as reasonable any year.

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Speaker 1: If ten your treasury yields are five, where some people

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Speaker 1: are gonna be suggesting they could be. Are you in

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Speaker 1: the camp that says that we have seen peak yields

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Speaker 1: on tenure, that we're close to it, even as we

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Speaker 1: do see them start to climb and push up against

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Speaker 1: and test some of the highs that we've seen of

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Speaker 1: the cycle. Yeah, at least I don't know if we've

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Speaker 1: seen the peak, but but I think we're close. Me

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Speaker 1: because we're in the camp that inflation is going to decelerate,

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Speaker 1: growth is going to decelerate. I think it's a it's

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Speaker 1: it's it's really important to keep in mind the magnitude

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Speaker 1: of the financial conditions tightening that the Fed has engineered.

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Speaker 1: In just six months time, they're going to raise rates

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Speaker 1: by another seventy most likely in less than two weeks time,

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Speaker 1: pushing the funds right to three. That's in a six

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Speaker 1: month period of time, three basis points off zero, six

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Speaker 1: d basis points annualized. Right, this is this is not

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Speaker 1: an insignificant move. It's a it's a meaningful move, and

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Speaker 1: and takes time, right the famous long and variable legs.

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Speaker 1: It takes time for policy adjustments easing and tightening to

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Speaker 1: work their way through all of the cracks in the economy.

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Speaker 1: It's coming, I think it'll be. It'll be very unlikely

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Speaker 1: that we we look up in three to six months

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Speaker 1: time and growth and inflation haven't slowed by a sufficient

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Speaker 1: amount that the Fed is probably able to pause with

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Speaker 1: rates around four percent and just sit there for a while.

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Speaker 1: So in order to get a five ten year on

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Speaker 1: a one year horizon, a lot of things have to

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Speaker 1: go wrong, right, I just that just maybe it could be,

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Speaker 1: but but a lot of things already have gone wrong,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's it's a little dangerous to extrapolate

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Speaker 1: the last nine months into the next nine months without

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Speaker 1: considering what's happening to financial conditions in the US economy.

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Speaker 1: They are tighter, yeah, though you do still see the

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Speaker 1: consumer having some strength, particularly with oil prices or at

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Speaker 1: least gasoline prices coming down a bit. Have we fully

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Speaker 1: taken into account the fact that Europe has also moved

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Speaker 1: away from negative fielding machine with the biggest ever rate

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Speaker 1: hike at the ECB meeting last week, and it's poised

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Speaker 1: to do more. That there is a cohesive and global

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Speaker 1: synchronized rate hiking cycle that we really haven't seen in

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Speaker 1: modern history. Yeah, it's a great point, and it would

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Speaker 1: I would argue that that adds to the the reality

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Speaker 1: of financial conditions tightening in a lot of different places,

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Speaker 1: not just the United States, and that will ultimately have

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Speaker 1: a delayed but but likely a real impact on growth

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Speaker 1: and inflation over the next year or two. Keep in mind,

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Speaker 1: there's one central bank that that isn't participating that we

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Speaker 1: think will will likely be forced to buy their own

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Speaker 1: inflation dynamics in Japan. Sometime over the next six to

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Speaker 1: nine months, we wouldn't be at all surprised to see

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Speaker 1: the yield curve control um program that's been in place

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Speaker 1: for some time at a minimum adjusted slightly, if not

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Speaker 1: adjusted by you know, a reasonable amount. I probably gotta

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Speaker 1: pick up on that phonic question, what does that mean?

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Speaker 1: And how would the rest of the global bond market

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Speaker 1: response to a move like that? Yeah, so, Jonathan, great question.

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Speaker 1: That that's where like if you asked me, what's the

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Speaker 1: scenario where the question Lisa mentioned about a five percent

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Speaker 1: treasury yield? What what's this? What's the scenario where that's

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Speaker 1: a reality? It's either it's either just unbelievably persistently high

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Speaker 1: inflation um that the FED cannot get under control, so

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Speaker 1: the front end is likely at five if not higher,

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Speaker 1: or it's some resumption of global term premium by the

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Speaker 1: you know, the ECB not only not only turning off QUI,

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Speaker 1: but perhaps even pursuing some balance you run off, and importantly,

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Speaker 1: the Bank of Japan abandoning yield curve control. I think

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Speaker 1: all of that, each one of those is individually pretty

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Speaker 1: pretty low odds. But but that is the scenario where

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Speaker 1: if you want to get really bearish on bonds, I

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Speaker 1: think you've got to have something like that in mind, Bob,

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Speaker 1: Thank you. Katy. Kamensk joins out. It's been a joy

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Speaker 1: to speak to a chief research strategist at Alpha Simplex

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Speaker 1: about trend because she off of Andrew lowd M I

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Speaker 1: t is a slave to trend is full disclosure. I

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Speaker 1: am too, Katy. What is the trend now and is

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Speaker 1: the trend different than what we saw in the last

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Speaker 1: two weeks of June. Yes, I mean, I think we've

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Speaker 1: seen the short bond signals as well as long long

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Speaker 1: positioning and dollar be very dominant recently. But in the

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Speaker 1: last two weeks we've really seen an influx of risk

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Speaker 1: on behavior, a lot of buying pressure, particularly in the

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Speaker 1: equity sector. And this is somewhat of an indication that

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Speaker 1: people are getting optimistic, they're ready to put money back

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Speaker 1: in the market. But the question is going to be

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Speaker 1: is it too early? That's the question that cities asking.

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Speaker 1: This is what Andrew hollen Host and the team had

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Speaker 1: to say this morning. They published just moments ago. Read

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Speaker 1: through it. Despite the pricing in of hikes, risk on prevails.

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Speaker 1: The message at Jackson Hall was clear the FED will

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Speaker 1: lean against LUCA financial conditions until inflation has convincingly slowed

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Speaker 1: the team. Ever, City go on to say, maybe the

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Speaker 1: FED will be incentivized to push against the nice and

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Speaker 1: risk rally. Do you agree with that, Katy? I do

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Speaker 1: agree with it, but I also think it could take

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Speaker 1: longer than people expect. And the fact that the FED

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Speaker 1: is remaining steady is they're setting a signal that they're

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Speaker 1: thinking a little differently than the market. And I think

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Speaker 1: we've been the most surprised to see that the market

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Speaker 1: is more optimistic than FED commentary, and that suggests that

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Speaker 1: there's perhaps maybe a little bit more that we need

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Speaker 1: to think about going forward, and that we might see

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Speaker 1: a little bit of reversion. We'll see what the CPI

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Speaker 1: looks like today, but you know, you're gonna have to

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Speaker 1: see how winter unfolds and how we handle some of

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Speaker 1: these energy issues and other problems. We haven't even really

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Speaker 1: seen q T yet, so I think it's going to

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Speaker 1: take time to know. But I'm a little bit less

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Speaker 1: optimistic than the market think. Katie John was talking earlier

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Speaker 1: about how we should just interview with med medeollergists all day,

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Speaker 1: and that might be as good as interviewing prognosticators on

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Speaker 1: the market, because that might be what determines the market.

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Speaker 1: So what is the bond response? What is the stock

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Speaker 1: response to uh, really cold winter one in which the

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Speaker 1: energy shortfall becomes more acute. I mean this is a

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Speaker 1: serious issue because if you see people dealing with higher

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Speaker 1: interest rates in terms of their payments, and you're also

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Speaker 1: seeing people dealing with higher costs, it could really be

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Speaker 1: a difficult situation, particularly for Europe UM and so I

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Speaker 1: think people really need to think about looking at those

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Speaker 1: prices as we roll into the winter season. We're just

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Speaker 1: now starting to move towards December contracts and farther out

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Speaker 1: in the curve. So I do agree with John that

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Speaker 1: you know, it's really going to depend on how we

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Speaker 1: weather the winter um as as the price pressure is real. Katie,

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Speaker 1: we're speaking with you after you got a thirty eight

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Speaker 1: percent gain in Alpha Simplex's main fund as a result

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Speaker 1: of selling short bonds, something that hasn't worked for years.

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Speaker 1: At what point do double down on that short position

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Speaker 1: at a time where you think the market's getting it

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Speaker 1: wrong and underestimating the Feds resolve. So I think one

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Speaker 1: thing to know about trend falling is what we do

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Speaker 1: is follow trends, And the truth is that the market,

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Speaker 1: particularly in really difficult environments, is often a better bastion

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Speaker 1: of information than one individual or anyone particular view. And

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Speaker 1: so what we've seen now, which is kind of why

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Speaker 1: I'm saying it's surprising, is that short bond trends are

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Speaker 1: still there, that positioning is still very strong in the data,

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Speaker 1: and we could definitely see even though rates are reasonable

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Speaker 1: than becoming more unreasonable in the short term. Can you

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Speaker 1: corral a short bond bond priced down yield up into

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Speaker 1: an equity bet on trend? Yes, I mean as once

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Speaker 1: we see that things have leveled out. I think I've

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Speaker 1: always said that this is an an equity story, it's

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Speaker 1: a bond story. So once we see that bonds have

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Speaker 1: stabilized and we have a much more healthy curve and

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Speaker 1: more of a risk premium out in the curve, so

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Speaker 1: we see much more of a steeper curve, I would

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Speaker 1: think that that's really sort of a risk on signal

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Speaker 1: that where you can all start to think about those

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Speaker 1: premiums as opposed to the potential destruction of great rises,

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Speaker 1: because we all forget even though it's better going forward,

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Speaker 1: the bonds were now really take a hit. They all

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Speaker 1: felt that this year. Okay, let's go mathy here. We're

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Speaker 1: doing this on a Monday. We can go math Monday

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Speaker 1: here as well. Is the disinversion of the curve important

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Speaker 1: or is it the first derivative rate of change of

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Speaker 1: sad disinversion? For me, it's much more the inversion of

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Speaker 1: the curve that's going to matter. I mean, that tells

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Speaker 1: us something about the disparity between what we're thinking about

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Speaker 1: short term rates and long term rates. And if you

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Speaker 1: look empirically at signals in terms of trend and direction

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Speaker 1: of bonds, you see that bonds have tended to fall

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Speaker 1: when the curve is more inverted. And thus, if we

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Speaker 1: continue to see that inversion signal, we're going to see

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Speaker 1: that there's some sort of bearished you on bonds until

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Speaker 1: we can kind of see that longer term risk premio,

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Speaker 1: that steepness really be an issue. So I'd say first

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Speaker 1: derivative Ketty Kamisney, thank you for Alpha simplex, the lightst

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Speaker 1: in the bond market. So right now we turn to Ukraine.

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Speaker 1: Has been a absolutely unique weekend of infantry movement, which

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Speaker 1: means only we can speak with General Hodges. Ben Hodges

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Speaker 1: is a former Commanding General for US Army Europe. He

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Speaker 1: is a perching chair and Strategic Studies at super But

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Speaker 1: so importantly, Ben Hodges, I'm going to go back to

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Speaker 1: you doing what you do best. You were an instructor

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Speaker 1: at the United United States Army Infantry School. When you

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Speaker 1: instruct infantry, and particularly if the Ukraine's going after rapidly

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Speaker 1: retreating Russians, what should they do? Uh? Three things? Number one,

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Speaker 1: do not let up the pressure. Do not give the

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Speaker 1: Russians a chance to stop and turn around and fight,

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Speaker 1: So that that's number one. Number two, keep using your

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Speaker 1: combined arms in other words, infantry, tanks, artillery, engineers, all

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Speaker 1: of these things working together. That's what Ukraine is doing

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Speaker 1: so well, and that the Russians have not done well.

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Speaker 1: And then finally, unleash Ukrainian air power. Um, even though

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Speaker 1: the Russians had all the advantages, they've never been able

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Speaker 1: to dominate the airspace over Ukraine. And I think Ukrainians

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Speaker 1: are gonna try and take advantage of that. This conversation

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Speaker 1: reminds me of one U. S. Grant, an unknown going

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Speaker 1: down the Mississippi River and teaching the North how to

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Speaker 1: prosecute a full force invasion. What do we need from

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Speaker 1: the Ukraine's Ukrainians now to be like Grant in our

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Speaker 1: civil war? Is it simply they need more MATI You're

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Speaker 1: real well, for sure, they have the same sort of

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Speaker 1: strategic eye as General Grant did. That this is about

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Speaker 1: you have to crush your enemy. And that's that's from

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Speaker 1: President jelinskying down. He said, this thing started with Crimeana,

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Speaker 1: is going to end with Crimea. And so what they

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Speaker 1: do need from us, of course two things. When they

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Speaker 1: need continued delivery of the type of weapons and ammunition

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Speaker 1: that are helping them make the difference to destroy Russian logistics,

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Speaker 1: destroy Russian command and control, but also the sanctions that

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Speaker 1: the sanctions really are having an effect on Russia's ability,

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Speaker 1: both in terms of their own defense industry, but also domestically.

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Speaker 1: I think more and more Russian people are beginning to

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Speaker 1: feel this war that Pugin was trying to shield from them. Well,

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Speaker 1: Lieutenant General, that's why I wanted to go. Because there

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Speaker 1: is some discussion about the possibility of conscription. If Vladimir

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Speaker 1: Putin does not want to come to the table does

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Speaker 1: not want to come to some sort of resolution, and

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Speaker 1: if he is running out of troops, as the reports

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Speaker 1: have suggested, what is Vladimir's Vladimir Putin's response to this.

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Speaker 1: How concerned are you about some retaliatory measure that we're

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Speaker 1: perhaps not expecting. Well, you're right that they have a

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Speaker 1: very serious manpower problem. Uh in the Russian military, which

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Speaker 1: is not doesn't sound like what I would have said

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Speaker 1: a year ago. Uh. Most of their recruits now, many

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Speaker 1: of them are conscripts, come from a way outside of Moscow,

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Speaker 1: in St. Petersburg. The Kremlin has tried to avoid drafting

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Speaker 1: anybody from the two major metropolitan areas because again they

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Speaker 1: want to shield the public from what's happening in Ukraine.

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Speaker 1: Uh that nobody wants to fight, nobody wants to get

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Speaker 1: involved in this war. They know what's going to happen

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Speaker 1: if they do get sent into Ukraine. So I think

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Speaker 1: part of the reason President Putin has avoided doing this

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Speaker 1: general mobilization is because he wants to preserve the fairy tale.

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Speaker 1: But also they'll be humiliated. People will not show up.

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Speaker 1: They don't have the equipment to to equip that at

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Speaker 1: the uniforms and weapons to equip another hundred thousand troops,

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Speaker 1: and it would still be months before they would be

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Speaker 1: effective in any way. So attend in general, how does

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Speaker 1: this end? And does it reassert Russia as a member

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Speaker 1: of the global economy or does it leave it incredibly isolated.

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Speaker 1: I think it's gonna be a long time before we

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Speaker 1: can look at Russian and work with them as if

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Speaker 1: things are quasa normal. Um this will end. I believe

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Speaker 1: early next year. The Ukrainians are going to push the

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Speaker 1: Russians back to the twenty three February line before the

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Speaker 1: end of this year. I believe, of course I could

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Speaker 1: be proven wrong here in another month or two, but

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Speaker 1: that's how I think that's going to happen. And then

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Speaker 1: Crimea probably early sometime next year, a combination of fighting

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Speaker 1: and perhaps some negotiated conclusion. But the Ukrainians are not

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Speaker 1: going to start, nor should they stop. What does Russia

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Speaker 1: look look like when this is over? Of course I

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Speaker 1: cannot for sure what kind of friction and things are

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Speaker 1: happening inside the Kremlin. We're all seeing various reports of

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Speaker 1: things that are happening. There, a lot of finger pointing,

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Speaker 1: and people may start falling out of windows again. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's going to be a pretty rough scene around Moscow,

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Speaker 1: I think for the next few months. General, thank you,

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Speaker 1: we appreciate it's on today, said ben Hall. It just

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Speaker 1: that a form of commanding general for the U S

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Speaker 1: Sami Shulmanack now joins us for an important briefing. Why

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Speaker 1: is this important? He is one of the great students

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Speaker 1: of continental economics. It matters for America right now with

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Speaker 1: the trading relationships that we have, Shelle, what is the

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Speaker 1: distinctive uncertainty you have in the fourth quarter. You are

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Speaker 1: covering on a global basis, but you are covering for

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Speaker 1: Europe a continent in war. What is the distinctive uncertainty

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Speaker 1: you face in the fourth quarter? Well, you know, Q

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Speaker 1: three we still had some support from the fact that

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Speaker 1: we reopen our economy a bit later than the US. So,

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Speaker 1: for instance, we had really nice spending on tourism, recreational

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Speaker 1: activities and and so forth. That goes away in in

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Speaker 1: Q four, and we have this major uncertainty on the

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Speaker 1: price of gas, and beyond the price of gas, the

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Speaker 1: availability of gas. So at this juncture we're still waiting

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Speaker 1: for the details of the EU policy on on the

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Speaker 1: possibility of of gas rationing and how the electricity marks

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Speaker 1: can be can be reformed um and we need to

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Speaker 1: to know whether or not they will need to be

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Speaker 1: some actual rationing of of gas of energy in general

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Speaker 1: this winter, because this could have a drastic impact on GDP.

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Speaker 1: If you forced to stop production of energy spending companies,

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Speaker 1: you will have a direct impact on GDP. The backdrop

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Speaker 1: appear as well over the weekends. Electoral tumult in Canada,

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Speaker 1: certainly the election in Sweden and a coming election of

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Speaker 1: some form in Italy as well give us the political

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Speaker 1: backdrop is it folds into two thousand and twenty three

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Speaker 1: and in Europe in recession, well, Italy is important obviously

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Speaker 1: because all the polls are saying that uh, the frater

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Speaker 1: Italia is probably going to to win in coalition with

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Speaker 1: with Lega and for the Italian and there are questions

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Speaker 1: obviously as to their approach to the commitments of Italy

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Speaker 1: towards towards Europe. To be fair, Georgia Malone is the

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Speaker 1: leader of Franti Italia has mellowed a loss honor and

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Speaker 1: European rhetorics to the market is probably you know, are

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Speaker 1: ready to to give some some leeway to a new

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Speaker 1: government in Italy in September. But mordinally, um, if you

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Speaker 1: look beyond the elections per se, what we've had so

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Speaker 1: far is a willingness by government's across Europe to accommodate

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Speaker 1: the shock from a rising energy prices um with rising

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Speaker 1: interest rates. It's going to be increasingly promatic for these

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Speaker 1: governments to maintain this kind of physical policy, and obviously

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Speaker 1: this could lead to some political trouble down the road.

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Speaker 1: So we are in sort of a tipping point for now.

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Speaker 1: Governments in journal has been able to mitigate a lot

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Speaker 1: of the rowing impact of the rising gas prices. That

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Speaker 1: may become more complicated as we get into days of

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Speaker 1: twenties three. Sorry, I want to double down on this

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Speaker 1: a little bit because we are here in London as

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Speaker 1: this sort of see change happens on multiple prongs. Whether

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Speaker 1: it's the loss of the Queen who has reigned for

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Speaker 1: seventy years, or whether it's the loss of negative yields,

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Speaker 1: which had been the base case for for more than

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Speaker 1: a decade, whether it's this energy crisis. And the point

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Speaker 1: that you just made is incredibly important that governments have

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Speaker 1: not realized that the more the e c B hikes rates,

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Speaker 1: the more unable they will be to plug the pain

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Speaker 1: for a lot of the residents. What are you looking

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Speaker 1: at in terms of translating into GDP growth in the

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Speaker 1: euroregion as a response to exactly that dynamic that something

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Speaker 1: has to give here, Yes, I mean basically what's happening

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Speaker 1: is that's we are mitigating the current shock. I mean

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Speaker 1: you can see that everywhere in Europe, including now in

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Speaker 1: the UK, which was hesitant actually as to whether they

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Speaker 1: would mitigate the shock. They are they are going to

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Speaker 1: cap energy prices, so the depth of the recession which

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Speaker 1: is looming right now is probably going to end up

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Speaker 1: shallower than one we could have fear just a few

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Speaker 1: months ago. But at the same time, what we're doing

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Speaker 1: is that we are obviously increasing public deficits, increasing public debt.

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Speaker 1: So at some point, and we don't know exactly when,

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Speaker 1: we're probably in three or in twenty twenty four at

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Speaker 1: at the latest, there will need to be some efforts

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Speaker 1: on on physical policy. This will probably have the dampening

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Speaker 1: impact on domestic demands. So in a way, we are

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Speaker 1: uh just changing the timing of the pain, and it

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Speaker 1: makes sense. I mean, we need to deal with the

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Speaker 1: current energy crisis right now, but this will come at

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Speaker 1: a price, and the price is likely to be some

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Speaker 1: measure of austerity in twenty twenty three or again at

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Speaker 1: the latest in there were reports over the weekend deal

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Speaker 1: of manufacturers in Germany industrial companies closing down their plants

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Speaker 1: at different times or early curtailing some of the activity

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Speaker 1: in response to the energy concerns. The energy cost, how

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Speaker 1: much is that going to really affect the restoring the

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Speaker 1: desire to try to avoid the interest rate hit and

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Speaker 1: the currency hit that a lot of nations have been

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Speaker 1: feeling now. I mean, it's it's it's it's a it's

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Speaker 1: a big issue for for Germany because the industrial specialization

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Speaker 1: of Germany make them very sensitive to the price of energy.

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Speaker 1: Beyond the fact that they've made themselves reliant on Russian gas,

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Speaker 1: the very fabric of German industry is quite energy energy intensive.

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Speaker 1: So there are questions actually as to how this model

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Speaker 1: could continue of maintaining on German territory those energy engency

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Speaker 1: of engency of companies. Um, it's not the first time

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Speaker 1: that we have questions as to the German industrial model,

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Speaker 1: their reliance on exports. This question is becoming even more

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Speaker 1: crucial today. So what's what's helping Germany obviously is that

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Speaker 1: they have massive policy space. They don't have much of

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Speaker 1: the hupper pacted public debt. They can actually take time

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Speaker 1: to you know, uh rejig the way their economy is

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Speaker 1: specialized at the moment. But yeah, there are questions specifically

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Speaker 1: to Germany at the moment to borrow for me and Brammer,

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Speaker 1: what is the power of Brussels now, the force of

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Speaker 1: Brussels right now or is it every nation for itself

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Speaker 1: actually full full standing. I would say that the level

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Speaker 1: of silarity that has been achieved in Europe in the

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Speaker 1: face of this crisis is quite high, mainly have, for instance,

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Speaker 1: this principle of European solidarity on gas. It was not

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Speaker 1: obvious and it has been actually a confirmed. The French

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Speaker 1: president said publicly in a TV address that from the

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Speaker 1: winter would actually help Germany with the gas supply this winter.

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Speaker 1: So actually there's quite a bit of saadity. One of

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Speaker 1: the issues we have, however, is that there's an issue

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Speaker 1: in terms of of leadership. Mario Dragi is nonger going

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Speaker 1: to be Prime Minister of Italy. He was playing a

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Speaker 1: big role in shaking things up if you want. At

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Speaker 1: the European level, the Chancellor of Germany UM is under

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Speaker 1: massive domestic pressure, probably doesn't have that much time and

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Speaker 1: energy to devote to European matters. And obviously I'm Mayor

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Speaker 1: nack Home is not in the same leading position in

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Speaker 1: which she was before the planet's redaction. So there's a

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Speaker 1: louit of of of of of a hesitancy if you want,

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Speaker 1: in terms of leadership, bosh at least fourth time being

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Speaker 1: solidarity is continuing. UM. It's there's not a lot of

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Speaker 1: science actually that it's it's every country for itself. We

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Speaker 1: have a few issues with some Eastern countries Hungary as

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Speaker 1: as usual, but by a large the system holds of access.

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Speaker 1: Investment Manager show got to catch alp me said. This

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Speaker 1: is the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. Thanks for listening. Join us

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Speaker 1: live weekdays from seven to ten AMI Eastern. I'm Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: Radio and on Bloomberg Television each day from six to

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Speaker 1: nine am for insight from the best in economics, finance, investment,

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Speaker 1: and international relations. And subscribe to the Surveillance podcast on

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00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 1: Apple podcast, SoundCloud, Bloomberg dot com, and of course on

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Speaker 1: the terminal. I'm Tom keen in this is Bloomer