1
00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:23,956
Speaker 1: Pushkin. Do you ever feel like you don't have the

2
00:00:24,036 --> 00:00:26,196
Speaker 1: time for all the things that you need to do

3
00:00:26,276 --> 00:00:28,716
Speaker 1: in your daily life, let alone the space to do

4
00:00:28,756 --> 00:00:31,396
Speaker 1: the fun stuff that might bring you joy. Many of

5
00:00:31,476 --> 00:00:34,756
Speaker 1: us have a whole host of responsibilities dealing with errand's,

6
00:00:34,796 --> 00:00:38,036
Speaker 1: caring for children, helping out elderly parents, but most of

7
00:00:38,116 --> 00:00:40,996
Speaker 1: us are also holding down a job. On top of that,

8
00:00:41,356 --> 00:00:45,116
Speaker 1: you might easily spend forty fifty, maybe even sixty hours

9
00:00:45,156 --> 00:00:47,316
Speaker 1: a week at work, and then there's all the stuff

10
00:00:47,356 --> 00:00:51,116
Speaker 1: that creeps in after hours, like emails from customers, clients,

11
00:00:51,236 --> 00:00:55,076
Speaker 1: or your boss. Unfortunately, feeling completely overwhelmed by a packed

12
00:00:55,116 --> 00:00:57,756
Speaker 1: schedule is not great for your well being. It can

13
00:00:57,836 --> 00:01:00,236
Speaker 1: even feel like drowning. But what if I said I

14
00:01:00,236 --> 00:01:02,956
Speaker 1: could give you back nearly a whole day every week

15
00:01:03,316 --> 00:01:06,036
Speaker 1: and with no impact on your ability to pay your bills?

16
00:01:06,436 --> 00:01:08,996
Speaker 1: Sounds amazing, right, Well, that's a big idea from the

17
00:01:09,156 --> 00:01:11,116
Speaker 1: author of one of my favorite new books.

18
00:01:11,516 --> 00:01:15,436
Speaker 2: I'm Juliette Sure, and I'm the author of Four Days

19
00:01:15,476 --> 00:01:18,716
Speaker 2: a Week, a book on companies that are giving their

20
00:01:18,796 --> 00:01:22,356
Speaker 2: employees for eight hour days with no reduction in pay.

21
00:01:22,756 --> 00:01:26,236
Speaker 1: Juliet is an economist and sociologist at Boston College. Her

22
00:01:26,236 --> 00:01:28,756
Speaker 1: new book explains all the reasons we should cut down

23
00:01:28,756 --> 00:01:31,396
Speaker 1: our standard work week. She also addresses lots of the

24
00:01:31,436 --> 00:01:34,596
Speaker 1: old arguments that have always been made to keep Americans

25
00:01:34,636 --> 00:01:37,396
Speaker 1: from having more free time. Remember, of course, that one

26
00:01:37,476 --> 00:01:40,156
Speaker 1: hundred years ago, there was no such thing as a weekend.

27
00:01:40,476 --> 00:01:44,036
Speaker 1: Six day work weeks were the norm. Activist back then

28
00:01:44,196 --> 00:01:46,996
Speaker 1: pushed for less time on the job, but employers wouldn't

29
00:01:47,036 --> 00:01:49,876
Speaker 1: have it. A five day work week would destroy the economy.

30
00:01:49,916 --> 00:01:52,796
Speaker 1: Employers argued less time at work would increase the price

31
00:01:52,836 --> 00:01:55,956
Speaker 1: of goods in stores, it make workers decadent and lazy,

32
00:01:56,276 --> 00:01:58,556
Speaker 1: It would disadvantage people who wanted to get ahead in

33
00:01:58,596 --> 00:02:01,396
Speaker 1: their careers, and would hurt workers who were happy to

34
00:02:01,436 --> 00:02:05,276
Speaker 1: work long hours. But labor union encountered that companies could

35
00:02:05,316 --> 00:02:08,636
Speaker 1: find clever ways to maintain productivity and that workers with

36
00:02:08,676 --> 00:02:11,396
Speaker 1: more free time time would spend more money and actually

37
00:02:11,476 --> 00:02:15,076
Speaker 1: boost the economy. Eventually, a few companies decided to try

38
00:02:15,116 --> 00:02:18,236
Speaker 1: out this radical idea, and they kind of liked it.

39
00:02:18,596 --> 00:02:21,796
Speaker 1: Now decades later, the five day work week ain't so radical.

40
00:02:22,396 --> 00:02:25,036
Speaker 1: In four days a week, Julia argues that it's now

41
00:02:25,116 --> 00:02:29,156
Speaker 1: time that we reduce work hours again. Lots of people disagree,

42
00:02:29,476 --> 00:02:32,156
Speaker 1: and for exactly the same reasons that folks used over

43
00:02:32,156 --> 00:02:34,956
Speaker 1: one hundred years ago. But could those reasons now be

44
00:02:35,156 --> 00:02:38,036
Speaker 1: just as wrong as they were before. I begin my

45
00:02:38,116 --> 00:02:40,676
Speaker 1: chat with Juliette by asking her how she stumbled on

46
00:02:40,716 --> 00:02:42,556
Speaker 1: this area of study in the first place.

47
00:02:43,236 --> 00:02:46,556
Speaker 2: Well, without dating myself too much, I did start studying

48
00:02:46,556 --> 00:02:48,476
Speaker 2: this when I was an assistant professor back in the

49
00:02:48,556 --> 00:02:51,836
Speaker 2: nineteen eighties. And then I went to the data and

50
00:02:51,956 --> 00:02:56,276
Speaker 2: was very shocked to find that rather than working hours

51
00:02:56,316 --> 00:03:00,636
Speaker 2: declining as they had been for seventy five eighty five

52
00:03:00,756 --> 00:03:05,996
Speaker 2: years beginning somewhere in the sixties, that sort of stalled out.

53
00:03:06,356 --> 00:03:10,356
Speaker 2: Then through the seventies eighties, working out hours were rising

54
00:03:10,436 --> 00:03:12,196
Speaker 2: in America, and so I wrote a book called The

55
00:03:12,236 --> 00:03:15,756
Speaker 2: Overworked America The Unexpected Decline of Leisure. At that time,

56
00:03:15,796 --> 00:03:18,596
Speaker 2: I tried to get some companies to reduce their working

57
00:03:18,636 --> 00:03:22,636
Speaker 2: hours without reductions in pay, and do some studies of

58
00:03:22,756 --> 00:03:26,516
Speaker 2: actual interventions. And in the end, none of those conversations

59
00:03:26,516 --> 00:03:29,716
Speaker 2: that I was having worked out. And when the pandemic hit,

60
00:03:30,036 --> 00:03:33,836
Speaker 2: I was getting more and more invitations, typically from Europe,

61
00:03:33,916 --> 00:03:37,156
Speaker 2: to talk about reducing work time. And after one of

62
00:03:37,156 --> 00:03:40,636
Speaker 2: those talks, a man approached me and said he was

63
00:03:40,916 --> 00:03:45,276
Speaker 2: organizing a trial of private sector employers in Ireland and

64
00:03:45,796 --> 00:03:47,836
Speaker 2: they were going to go to a thirty two hour

65
00:03:47,876 --> 00:03:50,596
Speaker 2: work week, no reduction in pay, and they were going

66
00:03:50,636 --> 00:03:52,796
Speaker 2: to be helped to figure out how to keep their

67
00:03:52,796 --> 00:03:55,716
Speaker 2: productivity up even in four days, and would I do

68
00:03:55,836 --> 00:03:59,516
Speaker 2: the research? And that is what led to studying hundreds

69
00:03:59,556 --> 00:04:02,916
Speaker 2: of companies. I think more than four hundred have gone

70
00:04:03,036 --> 00:04:07,436
Speaker 2: through these pilot programs or trials. Over eleven thousand employees

71
00:04:07,476 --> 00:04:10,516
Speaker 2: have been part of this research. So it's been very exciting.

72
00:04:10,836 --> 00:04:12,716
Speaker 1: So I want to go back to how you're thinking

73
00:04:12,756 --> 00:04:14,716
Speaker 1: about work back in the day, because I don't know,

74
00:04:14,796 --> 00:04:16,996
Speaker 1: it seems striking to me that it was forty years

75
00:04:16,996 --> 00:04:19,956
Speaker 1: ago that you wrote this book called The Overworked American

76
00:04:19,996 --> 00:04:22,836
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety two. It seems like people weren't talking

77
00:04:22,876 --> 00:04:24,956
Speaker 1: about that as much back then. Is that right?

78
00:04:25,556 --> 00:04:25,876
Speaker 3: Well?

79
00:04:25,996 --> 00:04:28,796
Speaker 2: It actually it's funny. It sort of has gone through

80
00:04:29,116 --> 00:04:32,636
Speaker 2: some ups and downs. So at the time I published

81
00:04:32,716 --> 00:04:37,156
Speaker 2: that book, as you say, nineteen ninety two, literally the

82
00:04:37,236 --> 00:04:41,836
Speaker 2: week that my book came out, a prominent Japanese politician

83
00:04:41,916 --> 00:04:45,556
Speaker 2: came out and said Americans are lazy, and that created

84
00:04:45,596 --> 00:04:49,956
Speaker 2: a whole big news thing around my book, so it

85
00:04:50,036 --> 00:04:52,556
Speaker 2: got a lot of attention, and there was kind of

86
00:04:52,756 --> 00:04:58,196
Speaker 2: widespread agreement that we were too stressed, people were too busy,

87
00:04:58,636 --> 00:05:02,036
Speaker 2: we didn't have enough time for families. And another interesting

88
00:05:02,116 --> 00:05:03,916
Speaker 2: thing about it was it sort of went across the

89
00:05:03,916 --> 00:05:08,116
Speaker 2: political spectrum because kind of everybody was agreeing Americans are

90
00:05:08,156 --> 00:05:12,796
Speaker 2: working too hard. But by the end of the decade,

91
00:05:12,876 --> 00:05:16,516
Speaker 2: I would say we'd sort of switched into we can

92
00:05:16,556 --> 00:05:19,036
Speaker 2: call it austerity mode or scarcity mode.

93
00:05:19,076 --> 00:05:19,916
Speaker 3: Two things happen.

94
00:05:20,076 --> 00:05:23,396
Speaker 2: One is this idea that we're getting poorer, the country's

95
00:05:23,436 --> 00:05:26,756
Speaker 2: de industrializing, et cetera, we need to work harder, So

96
00:05:26,876 --> 00:05:32,636
Speaker 2: that became more prominent. And then among the constituency who

97
00:05:32,676 --> 00:05:36,556
Speaker 2: would have typically been more attuned to shorter work hours

98
00:05:36,556 --> 00:05:39,316
Speaker 2: and here I'm thinking about unions or sort of left

99
00:05:39,356 --> 00:05:43,756
Speaker 2: liberal economist types and so forth, they were just increasingly

100
00:05:43,836 --> 00:05:48,996
Speaker 2: concerned about inequality, which of course is understandable, but it

101
00:05:49,156 --> 00:05:52,036
Speaker 2: kind of pushed work time off the table. So then

102
00:05:52,076 --> 00:05:54,876
Speaker 2: there was a long period where there was just no

103
00:05:55,036 --> 00:05:59,196
Speaker 2: traction for the issue. And then the pandemic hit and

104
00:05:59,236 --> 00:06:00,516
Speaker 2: that changed everything.

105
00:06:00,956 --> 00:06:04,116
Speaker 1: It also seems like in intervening years between nineteen ninety

106
00:06:04,116 --> 00:06:07,476
Speaker 1: two and the pandemic. Things that you saw as bad

107
00:06:07,516 --> 00:06:09,836
Speaker 1: in the early nineties were only getting worse. What are

108
00:06:09,836 --> 00:06:12,316
Speaker 1: some of the symptoms of our overwork getting worse, especially

109
00:06:12,356 --> 00:06:14,076
Speaker 1: in the US in the last few decades.

110
00:06:14,356 --> 00:06:17,756
Speaker 2: Well, I think we've got two things. One is, hours

111
00:06:17,756 --> 00:06:22,756
Speaker 2: of work were creeping up. You have the introduction of technology,

112
00:06:22,956 --> 00:06:26,116
Speaker 2: which expanded the day for many people, even if it

113
00:06:26,156 --> 00:06:30,796
Speaker 2: wasn't showing up in their official working hours. So if

114
00:06:30,836 --> 00:06:34,796
Speaker 2: your workplace, your boss could contact you outside of work

115
00:06:34,836 --> 00:06:38,036
Speaker 2: hours now with a smartphone or with email. There was

116
00:06:38,076 --> 00:06:42,876
Speaker 2: that always on problem. And another dimension of this which

117
00:06:42,876 --> 00:06:47,476
Speaker 2: has been documented by my collaborators Philis Moohen, Aaron Kelly,

118
00:06:47,596 --> 00:06:50,356
Speaker 2: and others. They wrote a really great book called Overload,

119
00:06:50,916 --> 00:06:55,916
Speaker 2: about a big software firm, and what happened was as

120
00:06:56,756 --> 00:07:00,316
Speaker 2: many of these American companies started outsourcing work to other

121
00:07:00,676 --> 00:07:05,076
Speaker 2: countries far away, the work day expanded because there were

122
00:07:05,076 --> 00:07:09,916
Speaker 2: teams in India and Korea, and so the people in

123
00:07:09,956 --> 00:07:13,116
Speaker 2: the US had to be communicating with those people, and

124
00:07:13,476 --> 00:07:16,756
Speaker 2: the work day really was stretching. And then the other

125
00:07:16,836 --> 00:07:21,276
Speaker 2: thing that happened is on the home front, a phenomenon

126
00:07:21,316 --> 00:07:27,956
Speaker 2: that sociologists have called intensive parenting, the continual escalation of

127
00:07:27,996 --> 00:07:31,116
Speaker 2: what is expected from parents and the amount of time

128
00:07:31,196 --> 00:07:34,396
Speaker 2: that they have to parent, and the pressures on parents

129
00:07:34,476 --> 00:07:38,836
Speaker 2: and the growing competitiveness in the college admission and the

130
00:07:38,956 --> 00:07:41,596
Speaker 2: labor market and so forth. That creates a lot of

131
00:07:41,596 --> 00:07:44,756
Speaker 2: anxiety for parents and the scheduling of children and all

132
00:07:44,796 --> 00:07:47,996
Speaker 2: of that. So you have those two forces, you know,

133
00:07:48,036 --> 00:07:51,716
Speaker 2: and of course they combine into ever greater time squeeze.

134
00:07:51,716 --> 00:07:55,356
Speaker 2: That's the term I have historically used. It's a really

135
00:07:55,436 --> 00:07:58,836
Speaker 2: high pressure situation for many American families.

136
00:07:59,036 --> 00:08:01,276
Speaker 1: So that reason is a question of why Americans are

137
00:08:01,276 --> 00:08:04,196
Speaker 1: so overworked. And I think that culturally we have this

138
00:08:04,236 --> 00:08:07,396
Speaker 1: one explanation, which is like, well, it's always been that way, right.

139
00:08:07,436 --> 00:08:10,276
Speaker 1: The United States is a culture of the stant work ethic.

140
00:08:10,396 --> 00:08:13,356
Speaker 1: We're always working so hard. Talk to me about why.

141
00:08:13,476 --> 00:08:15,716
Speaker 1: Historically there's reason to question that view.

142
00:08:15,876 --> 00:08:18,436
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that is the most common view, and

143
00:08:19,156 --> 00:08:22,076
Speaker 2: one of the reasons I really think it's important to

144
00:08:22,156 --> 00:08:25,396
Speaker 2: argue against it is that view thinks there's no way

145
00:08:25,436 --> 00:08:29,436
Speaker 2: we can reduce working hours. But if you look historically,

146
00:08:29,556 --> 00:08:31,996
Speaker 2: what you see is that the US was the world

147
00:08:32,116 --> 00:08:36,276
Speaker 2: leader in work time reduction until you know, sometime after

148
00:08:36,436 --> 00:08:38,476
Speaker 2: the Second World War. So we were the first to

149
00:08:38,516 --> 00:08:41,956
Speaker 2: get a five day week. We had lower working hours

150
00:08:42,076 --> 00:08:46,156
Speaker 2: than many countries, and part of it's that we were wealthier,

151
00:08:46,476 --> 00:08:50,196
Speaker 2: you know, we had a successful rapid industrialization, and we

152
00:08:50,276 --> 00:08:53,636
Speaker 2: had labor unions that pushed for shorter hours and so forth.

153
00:08:54,156 --> 00:08:57,036
Speaker 2: And then we start to diverge pretty much around the

154
00:08:57,156 --> 00:09:00,836
Speaker 2: seventies and eighties is when you see big divergence with Europe.

155
00:09:00,956 --> 00:09:03,796
Speaker 2: They were on a path of worktime reduction. That worktime

156
00:09:03,836 --> 00:09:08,156
Speaker 2: reduction path started in about eighteen seventy before that, by

157
00:09:08,196 --> 00:09:10,396
Speaker 2: the way, and this isn't interesting if we talk about

158
00:09:10,436 --> 00:09:14,076
Speaker 2: AI or some other things. The First Industrial Revolution led

159
00:09:14,076 --> 00:09:17,596
Speaker 2: to big increases in people's hours of work through the

160
00:09:17,956 --> 00:09:21,156
Speaker 2: nineteenth century up until that last quarter, and then you

161
00:09:21,236 --> 00:09:23,636
Speaker 2: start to go in the other direction. That's the peak

162
00:09:23,676 --> 00:09:26,116
Speaker 2: of work in all of human history. That's the peak

163
00:09:26,156 --> 00:09:30,036
Speaker 2: of work hours. So the idea that this is deep

164
00:09:30,076 --> 00:09:33,756
Speaker 2: in our culture from you know, the Protestant settlers and

165
00:09:33,876 --> 00:09:36,396
Speaker 2: all that, it just doesn't make sense. It's a pretty

166
00:09:36,476 --> 00:09:41,316
Speaker 2: recent phenomenon of the US becoming, you know, a long

167
00:09:41,476 --> 00:09:42,596
Speaker 2: hour's country.

168
00:09:42,956 --> 00:09:44,516
Speaker 1: And just to put that in perspective, I mean that

169
00:09:44,556 --> 00:09:47,356
Speaker 1: seems like we had decades and decades where the move

170
00:09:47,756 --> 00:09:50,516
Speaker 1: was reducing work hours. We were going down and down

171
00:09:50,556 --> 00:09:53,796
Speaker 1: and down, and then something shifted, like in the post

172
00:09:53,796 --> 00:09:56,196
Speaker 1: war maybe nineteen seventies, where we start to go up again.

173
00:09:56,356 --> 00:09:58,316
Speaker 1: So this idea that it all has always been that

174
00:09:58,356 --> 00:10:00,916
Speaker 1: way is just because we've forgotten our history of a

175
00:10:00,916 --> 00:10:01,716
Speaker 1: few decades ago.

176
00:10:01,836 --> 00:10:04,116
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's part of the myth that capitalism

177
00:10:04,196 --> 00:10:08,556
Speaker 2: reduced us from toil, because that myth forgets that long

178
00:10:08,716 --> 00:10:11,956
Speaker 2: period from you know, starting the eighteenth century through to

179
00:10:12,036 --> 00:10:14,796
Speaker 2: the later part of the nineteenth in which the development

180
00:10:14,796 --> 00:10:18,196
Speaker 2: of a capitalist economy and industrial economy led to big

181
00:10:18,316 --> 00:10:21,956
Speaker 2: increases and hours of work. So there's myopia there, right,

182
00:10:21,996 --> 00:10:24,916
Speaker 2: there's that kind of looking at the wrong point in

183
00:10:25,116 --> 00:10:26,316
Speaker 2: history and drawing the.

184
00:10:26,236 --> 00:10:27,436
Speaker 3: Wrong conclusion from it.

185
00:10:27,476 --> 00:10:31,236
Speaker 2: Whether we're talking about failing to look at seventeen seventy, I.

186
00:10:31,156 --> 00:10:33,476
Speaker 1: Think we also have some mistaken notions that are coming

187
00:10:33,596 --> 00:10:35,796
Speaker 1: up more recently. You talked in the book about this

188
00:10:35,916 --> 00:10:39,476
Speaker 1: idea of the ideal worker norm what's that and how

189
00:10:39,476 --> 00:10:42,676
Speaker 1: has it made our normal work hours today even worse.

190
00:10:42,836 --> 00:10:46,236
Speaker 2: It's the idea that the ideal worker is the one

191
00:10:46,276 --> 00:10:50,516
Speaker 2: who puts the job first always, and family or a

192
00:10:50,596 --> 00:10:54,356
Speaker 2: person's own passions and activities and so forth comes second.

193
00:10:54,756 --> 00:10:59,116
Speaker 2: So in practice, that ideal worker norm is one in

194
00:10:59,116 --> 00:11:01,916
Speaker 2: which the person is available twenty four to seven and

195
00:11:01,956 --> 00:11:05,876
Speaker 2: in which they don't have family or other outside obligations

196
00:11:05,916 --> 00:11:09,476
Speaker 2: that prevent them from giving all to the firm. And

197
00:11:10,036 --> 00:11:13,356
Speaker 2: it's been identified by people who were looking at gender

198
00:11:13,636 --> 00:11:17,156
Speaker 2: issues in the workplace. And if the ideal worker is

199
00:11:17,196 --> 00:11:20,276
Speaker 2: the person who has someone at home taking care of

200
00:11:20,316 --> 00:11:25,916
Speaker 2: the family, there's gender inequality there because women are disproportionately

201
00:11:25,956 --> 00:11:28,916
Speaker 2: the ones doing that, and so it privileges the men

202
00:11:29,356 --> 00:11:33,356
Speaker 2: who have a support system. And once you get into

203
00:11:33,396 --> 00:11:37,356
Speaker 2: a dual earner family situation or a single parent family

204
00:11:37,596 --> 00:11:42,396
Speaker 2: where there is no person back there supporting the worker,

205
00:11:42,876 --> 00:11:46,596
Speaker 2: it's really key to understanding those high levels of stress, burnout,

206
00:11:46,756 --> 00:11:50,556
Speaker 2: family and work life conflict. I had a little anecdote.

207
00:11:50,676 --> 00:11:52,556
Speaker 2: There was an excerpt of my book published in the

208
00:11:52,556 --> 00:11:55,396
Speaker 2: Wall Street Journal, and I got it kind of eventually.

209
00:11:55,436 --> 00:11:58,196
Speaker 3: He did agree that his email was hostile.

210
00:11:59,236 --> 00:12:03,196
Speaker 2: From a guy who talked about how he'd worked.

211
00:12:03,316 --> 00:12:03,876
Speaker 3: I don't remember.

212
00:12:03,916 --> 00:12:06,556
Speaker 2: It was sixty or seventy hours a week, and you

213
00:12:06,556 --> 00:12:09,236
Speaker 2: know that this four day week idea was terrible, and

214
00:12:09,276 --> 00:12:11,676
Speaker 2: he'd put all this time in and everybody else should

215
00:12:11,676 --> 00:12:13,636
Speaker 2: be doing that today and so forth. And then he

216
00:12:13,716 --> 00:12:17,116
Speaker 2: talked about his wonderful sweetheart of fifty five.

217
00:12:16,996 --> 00:12:20,516
Speaker 1: Years who was doing all the emotional labor in the background,

218
00:12:20,596 --> 00:12:21,196
Speaker 1: right and.

219
00:12:21,076 --> 00:12:24,716
Speaker 2: Not just and I said, and I bet that person

220
00:12:25,516 --> 00:12:27,396
Speaker 2: was a big part of why you were able to

221
00:12:27,476 --> 00:12:31,076
Speaker 2: work seventy hours a week because she was taking care

222
00:12:31,076 --> 00:12:32,116
Speaker 2: of your kids and so forth.

223
00:12:32,156 --> 00:12:34,196
Speaker 3: I mean, we're talking about a traditional guy.

224
00:12:34,716 --> 00:12:38,556
Speaker 2: He didn't actually come back on that, because I think

225
00:12:38,636 --> 00:12:39,236
Speaker 2: it was true.

226
00:12:39,676 --> 00:12:41,716
Speaker 1: And so we were talking about how, you know, things

227
00:12:41,796 --> 00:12:44,236
Speaker 1: changed to the nineties and people weren't really talking about this.

228
00:12:44,356 --> 00:12:47,796
Speaker 1: But then March of twenty twenty hit explain how the

229
00:12:47,876 --> 00:12:50,156
Speaker 1: conversation changed during the pandemic.

230
00:12:50,796 --> 00:12:55,636
Speaker 2: So things started happening. In terms of workplace dynamics. Number one,

231
00:12:55,956 --> 00:13:01,156
Speaker 2: lots of stress among the workforce, some of it unrelated

232
00:13:01,476 --> 00:13:04,436
Speaker 2: to what was going on inside the workplace, like kids

233
00:13:04,436 --> 00:13:07,516
Speaker 2: at home having to be schooled, people just really anxious

234
00:13:07,596 --> 00:13:10,956
Speaker 2: about the disease, their loved ones dying and so on

235
00:13:10,956 --> 00:13:13,916
Speaker 2: and so forth. But then within the workplace also a

236
00:13:13,916 --> 00:13:18,036
Speaker 2: lot of stress, So we have highly stressed employees. Number two,

237
00:13:18,516 --> 00:13:24,596
Speaker 2: we have companies employers who never thought work from home

238
00:13:24,876 --> 00:13:29,236
Speaker 2: could work and suddenly everything's okay. Work from home is working,

239
00:13:29,276 --> 00:13:31,876
Speaker 2: and so their minds are kind of opening up a

240
00:13:31,916 --> 00:13:33,996
Speaker 2: little bit, not all of them, but many of them

241
00:13:34,116 --> 00:13:37,796
Speaker 2: to like other kinds of changes that might be viable.

242
00:13:37,836 --> 00:13:39,996
Speaker 2: This is one of the things I've heard from, you know,

243
00:13:40,076 --> 00:13:43,956
Speaker 2: some of the employers who transitioned to a four day week, Like,

244
00:13:44,076 --> 00:13:47,116
Speaker 2: we didn't think work from home could work, but it did,

245
00:13:47,156 --> 00:13:48,916
Speaker 2: and so then we thought we'd give this a chance.

246
00:13:49,316 --> 00:13:52,636
Speaker 2: And then the other really big thing was the great resignation.

247
00:13:53,116 --> 00:13:57,316
Speaker 2: And even before the peak of it, you have companies

248
00:13:57,356 --> 00:14:02,316
Speaker 2: that are experiencing high levels of quits and feeling like

249
00:14:02,396 --> 00:14:05,916
Speaker 2: they've got to do something and understanding that that stress

250
00:14:05,956 --> 00:14:08,916
Speaker 2: that I started with is key to it. So you

251
00:14:08,956 --> 00:14:11,876
Speaker 2: have quite a few who sort of said, we got

252
00:14:11,956 --> 00:14:14,676
Speaker 2: to do something. Let's try the four day week as

253
00:14:14,716 --> 00:14:17,636
Speaker 2: a way of keeping employees and dealing with all that stress.

254
00:14:17,716 --> 00:14:21,036
Speaker 2: So I think those are the big changes in terms

255
00:14:21,116 --> 00:14:24,876
Speaker 2: of what sort of triggered. And then once we started

256
00:14:25,036 --> 00:14:28,596
Speaker 2: getting results and more and more evidence. There were case

257
00:14:28,636 --> 00:14:32,276
Speaker 2: studies before our research, so individual companies had done it,

258
00:14:32,316 --> 00:14:35,236
Speaker 2: and so you had a little bit of interest in it,

259
00:14:35,276 --> 00:14:37,876
Speaker 2: but it was sort of bubbling along at very very

260
00:14:37,916 --> 00:14:40,996
Speaker 2: low levels of take up until you get groups of

261
00:14:41,076 --> 00:14:43,916
Speaker 2: companies doing it, and we had lots of publicity about

262
00:14:43,956 --> 00:14:45,356
Speaker 2: the great results we were getting.

263
00:14:45,396 --> 00:14:47,596
Speaker 1: And so it seems like there were these massive changes

264
00:14:47,596 --> 00:14:50,116
Speaker 1: that happened during the pandemic. But it seems like these

265
00:14:50,156 --> 00:14:53,916
Speaker 1: trends have continued post pandemic too, right, not just like

266
00:14:54,316 --> 00:14:56,636
Speaker 1: at people actually quitting their jobs, but this idea of

267
00:14:56,756 --> 00:14:59,756
Speaker 1: quiet quitting or even folks who aren't quiet quitting. I

268
00:14:59,756 --> 00:15:03,036
Speaker 1: think what the productivity expert cal Nupert calls the Great exhaustion.

269
00:15:03,596 --> 00:15:05,916
Speaker 1: It just seems like the stress that we experienced during

270
00:15:05,916 --> 00:15:08,476
Speaker 1: the pandemic has not gone away. And if anything has

271
00:15:08,516 --> 00:15:10,596
Speaker 1: gotten worse, you know, it seems like people are really

272
00:15:10,636 --> 00:15:12,036
Speaker 1: questioning their life choices.

273
00:15:12,476 --> 00:15:17,396
Speaker 2: Yeah, well it's come down from the absolute peak, but

274
00:15:17,516 --> 00:15:20,476
Speaker 2: it's it's still really high. So you're right that it's

275
00:15:20,476 --> 00:15:24,556
Speaker 2: gotten worse I think compared to pre pandemic. So there

276
00:15:24,556 --> 00:15:27,356
Speaker 2: are still high levels of quits and unfilled position. The

277
00:15:27,476 --> 00:15:32,436
Speaker 2: stress levels are very high, that exhaustion is very high. Yes,

278
00:15:32,556 --> 00:15:36,276
Speaker 2: we haven't returned to a base. The baseline was tough anyway,

279
00:15:36,316 --> 00:15:39,596
Speaker 2: there was already a lot of exhaustion and stress burnout,

280
00:15:39,756 --> 00:15:42,516
Speaker 2: but we haven't gotten back to that, and you can

281
00:15:42,556 --> 00:15:47,516
Speaker 2: look at I mean that's global Gallup does ongoing studies

282
00:15:47,516 --> 00:15:52,036
Speaker 2: of things like stress and various types of employee engagement,

283
00:15:52,116 --> 00:15:55,596
Speaker 2: the quiet quitting, the loud quitting. Are people thriving, are

284
00:15:55,636 --> 00:15:58,596
Speaker 2: they struggling? Are they you know? And it's just really

285
00:15:58,716 --> 00:16:01,716
Speaker 2: high levels of distress on all of their metrics.

286
00:16:01,756 --> 00:16:03,076
Speaker 1: So one of the reasons I love your book so

287
00:16:03,196 --> 00:16:05,436
Speaker 1: much is that it's pushing for what might seem like

288
00:16:05,476 --> 00:16:08,236
Speaker 1: a radical solution. What is this radical solution?

289
00:16:08,476 --> 00:16:13,116
Speaker 2: So the radical solution is a four day week, not

290
00:16:13,316 --> 00:16:15,956
Speaker 2: four tens. Often when people hear four day week, they

291
00:16:15,956 --> 00:16:19,276
Speaker 2: immediately go to four tens. These are four eight hour days,

292
00:16:19,316 --> 00:16:23,476
Speaker 2: so it's a thirty two hour work week, no reduction

293
00:16:23,596 --> 00:16:26,396
Speaker 2: in pay. So people get there one hundred percent of

294
00:16:26,476 --> 00:16:28,636
Speaker 2: pay they're working thirty two hours.

295
00:16:28,836 --> 00:16:30,996
Speaker 3: And what most.

296
00:16:30,796 --> 00:16:33,156
Speaker 2: Although no, not all, and we can talk about the

297
00:16:33,196 --> 00:16:35,756
Speaker 2: differences the ones who do and don't. Most of these

298
00:16:35,836 --> 00:16:41,236
Speaker 2: companies are expecting one hundred percent of people's productivity in

299
00:16:41,276 --> 00:16:44,716
Speaker 2: those four days, so they're not expecting to lose productivity

300
00:16:44,836 --> 00:16:48,716
Speaker 2: or production or output or revenue in that time. There

301
00:16:48,716 --> 00:16:51,156
Speaker 2: are some that are in a different category. So that

302
00:16:51,356 --> 00:16:56,756
Speaker 2: first model of maintaining all the productivity. The entrepreneur who

303
00:16:56,796 --> 00:17:00,156
Speaker 2: did this at his company and then started the NGO

304
00:17:00,276 --> 00:17:02,876
Speaker 2: and four day Week Global that organized these trials that

305
00:17:02,956 --> 00:17:05,716
Speaker 2: I was doing the research from closet the one hundred

306
00:17:05,756 --> 00:17:08,636
Speaker 2: eighty hundred model one hundred percent of the money, eighty

307
00:17:08,636 --> 00:17:10,676
Speaker 2: percent of the time, one hundred percent of the production

308
00:17:10,836 --> 00:17:14,556
Speaker 2: or the output. There's also an one hundred eighty eighty

309
00:17:14,596 --> 00:17:18,516
Speaker 2: model I talk about. I mean, that's my terminology. But basically,

310
00:17:19,396 --> 00:17:23,076
Speaker 2: companies where people are so overworked they're leaving at such

311
00:17:23,116 --> 00:17:25,636
Speaker 2: high rates that the company just gives them a break

312
00:17:25,676 --> 00:17:27,636
Speaker 2: and it turns out to work out for them. They

313
00:17:27,636 --> 00:17:29,956
Speaker 2: save a lot of money because people stop.

314
00:17:29,836 --> 00:17:32,996
Speaker 1: Leaving, so people only working thirty two hours a week.

315
00:17:33,316 --> 00:17:36,076
Speaker 1: How novel is this idea? I mean, before you started

316
00:17:36,076 --> 00:17:38,316
Speaker 1: thinking about it, were there any companies that were already

317
00:17:38,316 --> 00:17:38,876
Speaker 1: trying it out.

318
00:17:39,236 --> 00:17:40,756
Speaker 2: I don't think most of them were on that one

319
00:17:40,796 --> 00:17:44,316
Speaker 2: hundred eighty one hundred model. There were four day week companies.

320
00:17:44,356 --> 00:17:47,276
Speaker 2: I mean, I co founded an NGO back in the

321
00:17:47,396 --> 00:17:50,556
Speaker 2: nineteen nineties that was called the Center for a New

322
00:17:50,596 --> 00:17:52,716
Speaker 2: American Dream, and part of the New American Dream was

323
00:17:52,756 --> 00:17:55,236
Speaker 2: working less. So our folks were all on a four

324
00:17:55,276 --> 00:17:57,836
Speaker 2: day work week from day one, and so there are

325
00:17:57,916 --> 00:18:00,796
Speaker 2: places that were in four day weeks. Increasingly you had

326
00:18:00,836 --> 00:18:03,716
Speaker 2: a number of companies that were on those nine day,

327
00:18:03,756 --> 00:18:07,076
Speaker 2: fortnight schedules, So one week five, the next week four,

328
00:18:07,156 --> 00:18:10,196
Speaker 2: back and forth the four day one weeks. Like at

329
00:18:10,276 --> 00:18:15,876
Speaker 2: our organization, we didn't explicitly say we had eighty percent salary,

330
00:18:16,276 --> 00:18:18,356
Speaker 2: but you know, we tended to be a little bit

331
00:18:18,396 --> 00:18:21,316
Speaker 2: on the lower side with salary, and so I think

332
00:18:21,476 --> 00:18:25,116
Speaker 2: until this movement, the more dominant idea was that there'd

333
00:18:25,156 --> 00:18:29,796
Speaker 2: be some trade off of income, whereas this model is saying, no,

334
00:18:30,196 --> 00:18:32,836
Speaker 2: you can get everything done in four days, and therefore

335
00:18:33,156 --> 00:18:35,436
Speaker 2: there shouldn't be a reduction in income because you're just

336
00:18:35,476 --> 00:18:36,156
Speaker 2: as productive.

337
00:18:36,436 --> 00:18:38,236
Speaker 3: To some extent, I think this has.

338
00:18:38,116 --> 00:18:42,476
Speaker 2: To do with the fact that there was increasing discussion

339
00:18:42,716 --> 00:18:47,436
Speaker 2: in the media of white collar workers kind of having

340
00:18:47,596 --> 00:18:49,996
Speaker 2: you know, what we would call the kind of low

341
00:18:50,076 --> 00:18:53,596
Speaker 2: intensity work, right, that there was slack in their work

342
00:18:53,716 --> 00:18:57,956
Speaker 2: day or work week that could be engineered out, or

343
00:18:57,956 --> 00:19:00,596
Speaker 2: that there were the companies were spending a lot of

344
00:19:00,676 --> 00:19:03,836
Speaker 2: time that wasn't very productive. The you know, poster child

345
00:19:03,876 --> 00:19:06,716
Speaker 2: for that being meetings, like so many meetings that people

346
00:19:06,756 --> 00:19:09,116
Speaker 2: had to go to and escaping them from doing their work.

347
00:19:09,276 --> 00:19:10,956
Speaker 2: And if they could just you know, have a more

348
00:19:10,996 --> 00:19:14,476
Speaker 2: functional meetings culture, maybe they could get everything done in

349
00:19:14,516 --> 00:19:15,196
Speaker 2: four days.

350
00:19:15,436 --> 00:19:17,916
Speaker 1: And so you had this radical idea. You know, there's

351
00:19:17,916 --> 00:19:20,436
Speaker 1: been some kind of interest in it, but you really

352
00:19:20,436 --> 00:19:23,716
Speaker 1: decided to test whether this was possible. So tell me

353
00:19:23,756 --> 00:19:26,476
Speaker 1: the story of how the four day work week tests

354
00:19:26,636 --> 00:19:27,316
Speaker 1: came about.

355
00:19:27,556 --> 00:19:30,436
Speaker 2: So during the pandemic, I was giving talks on shorter

356
00:19:30,516 --> 00:19:33,236
Speaker 2: worktime and I was approached by a man named Joe

357
00:19:33,276 --> 00:19:38,036
Speaker 2: O'Connor who said he was organizing a trial of private

358
00:19:38,116 --> 00:19:40,916
Speaker 2: sector companies who were going to do six months on

359
00:19:40,956 --> 00:19:44,796
Speaker 2: this one hundred eighty hundred model of giving a thirty

360
00:19:44,836 --> 00:19:47,116
Speaker 2: two hour work week with no reduction in pay. But

361
00:19:47,516 --> 00:19:50,916
Speaker 2: the trial was going to be preceded by two months

362
00:19:50,956 --> 00:19:55,676
Speaker 2: of coaching, onboarding, mentoring to help companies figure out how

363
00:19:55,716 --> 00:19:58,876
Speaker 2: to get one hundred percent of their output or productivity

364
00:19:58,876 --> 00:20:01,476
Speaker 2: in those four days. Now, one of the interesting things

365
00:20:01,516 --> 00:20:04,996
Speaker 2: about O'Connor was that he actually worked for a union,

366
00:20:05,236 --> 00:20:09,076
Speaker 2: the largest public sector union, maybe the largest union in Ireland.

367
00:20:09,276 --> 00:20:13,636
Speaker 2: It's called FORSA, and they had sort of released some

368
00:20:13,756 --> 00:20:19,596
Speaker 2: of his time to organize this trial because they wanted

369
00:20:19,796 --> 00:20:23,156
Speaker 2: to argue for shorter work time for their members, but

370
00:20:23,316 --> 00:20:26,796
Speaker 2: they felt unless there was private sector proof of concept,

371
00:20:26,916 --> 00:20:28,636
Speaker 2: they weren't going to get it because it would just

372
00:20:28,676 --> 00:20:30,316
Speaker 2: look I mean, he haven't said this, but you know,

373
00:20:30,316 --> 00:20:34,276
Speaker 2: maybe lazy public sector workers or something. So that's how

374
00:20:34,316 --> 00:20:36,796
Speaker 2: it came about. He knew my work. He asked if

375
00:20:36,876 --> 00:20:40,596
Speaker 2: I would lead the research for this. But very quickly

376
00:20:41,196 --> 00:20:45,116
Speaker 2: Joe teamed up with this group, four Day Week Global,

377
00:20:45,516 --> 00:20:49,316
Speaker 2: the entrepreneur from New Zealand who co founded it, Andrew

378
00:20:49,316 --> 00:20:54,956
Speaker 2: Barnes and his wife Charlotte Lockhart, and we began organizing

379
00:20:55,276 --> 00:20:58,076
Speaker 2: a North American trial and then a large British and

380
00:20:58,116 --> 00:21:00,916
Speaker 2: so it was the start of a year in which

381
00:21:00,996 --> 00:21:05,036
Speaker 2: every two months we had another trial groups of companies,

382
00:21:05,836 --> 00:21:08,516
Speaker 2: starting with the UK trial being the largest. I think

383
00:21:08,716 --> 00:21:11,956
Speaker 2: there were seventy companies in all. So they asked me

384
00:21:11,996 --> 00:21:13,796
Speaker 2: to do the research. We sort of set up as

385
00:21:13,796 --> 00:21:18,636
Speaker 2: an independent research team, and we developed a protocol with

386
00:21:18,956 --> 00:21:24,476
Speaker 2: employee surveys before and after, with getting administrative data from

387
00:21:24,516 --> 00:21:28,836
Speaker 2: the companies, and then where we had capacity doing interviews

388
00:21:28,876 --> 00:21:33,956
Speaker 2: with people, sometimes before and after and occasionally just you know,

389
00:21:34,076 --> 00:21:37,156
Speaker 2: mid midpoint after. So we have hundreds and hundreds of

390
00:21:37,156 --> 00:21:40,636
Speaker 2: interviews also with employees at you know, various levels of

391
00:21:40,676 --> 00:21:43,636
Speaker 2: the corporations or the organizations.

392
00:21:43,236 --> 00:21:44,956
Speaker 1: And what was really the goal to find out with

393
00:21:45,316 --> 00:21:46,476
Speaker 1: kind of all this data you're.

394
00:21:46,356 --> 00:21:49,996
Speaker 2: Collecting, So what happened when you go to a four

395
00:21:50,076 --> 00:21:52,356
Speaker 2: day week? We had a lot of access to employees.

396
00:21:52,436 --> 00:21:55,476
Speaker 2: So one of the big questions is what about their stress,

397
00:21:55,636 --> 00:21:59,556
Speaker 2: their burnout levels, their work family conflict, their emotions, their

398
00:21:59,596 --> 00:22:02,916
Speaker 2: satisfaction with their job, and whether they're thinking about leaving.

399
00:22:02,956 --> 00:22:04,916
Speaker 2: How much is a four day week worth to them?

400
00:22:05,156 --> 00:22:08,156
Speaker 2: But also what are they saying about their productivity and

401
00:22:08,196 --> 00:22:11,716
Speaker 2: how they're working. And people were worried they'd be less

402
00:22:11,756 --> 00:22:15,356
Speaker 2: socializing in the workplace and that might have a bad impact,

403
00:22:15,516 --> 00:22:18,916
Speaker 2: or what's happening to people's creativity, And so we collected

404
00:22:18,996 --> 00:22:21,396
Speaker 2: data on all of these things. Are they just getting

405
00:22:21,436 --> 00:22:24,876
Speaker 2: a second job or what about their work intensity? I mean,

406
00:22:24,916 --> 00:22:27,116
Speaker 2: the whole theory of this was to organize work and

407
00:22:27,116 --> 00:22:28,876
Speaker 2: get rid of things that take a lot of time

408
00:22:28,916 --> 00:22:31,196
Speaker 2: and don't yield much value. But what if it was

409
00:22:31,276 --> 00:22:34,556
Speaker 2: just a speed up. I mean, people still might like it,

410
00:22:34,996 --> 00:22:37,796
Speaker 2: but it's a very different thing than saying there's scope

411
00:22:37,836 --> 00:22:40,596
Speaker 2: to reorganize work, to get rid of a lot of

412
00:22:40,676 --> 00:22:44,596
Speaker 2: wasteful things. You can have a whole day back each

413
00:22:44,676 --> 00:22:47,396
Speaker 2: week from that and no lass of productivity.

414
00:22:47,756 --> 00:22:49,796
Speaker 1: It's time for a quick break, but we'll be back

415
00:22:49,836 --> 00:22:51,916
Speaker 1: soon to hear whether cutting a day from the work

416
00:22:51,956 --> 00:22:55,476
Speaker 1: week had employees signing up for second jobs or stressing

417
00:22:55,476 --> 00:22:58,836
Speaker 1: out trying to cram everything into shorter hours. The Happiness

418
00:22:58,916 --> 00:23:10,356
Speaker 1: Lab will be back in a moment. The economist Juliet

419
00:23:10,356 --> 00:23:13,796
Speaker 1: Shore explained all the fears employers had about giving their

420
00:23:13,836 --> 00:23:16,716
Speaker 1: workers an extra day off each week. Would cutting eight

421
00:23:16,756 --> 00:23:20,036
Speaker 1: hours out cause a bunch of unfortunate blowbacks? Would workers

422
00:23:20,036 --> 00:23:22,796
Speaker 1: feel more stressed out and less creative? Would they waste

423
00:23:22,796 --> 00:23:24,956
Speaker 1: the gift of extra time by just going out and

424
00:23:24,996 --> 00:23:25,956
Speaker 1: getting a second job.

425
00:23:26,676 --> 00:23:29,796
Speaker 2: The interesting thing is we didn't see those blowbacks. No

426
00:23:29,916 --> 00:23:33,556
Speaker 2: increase in second job holding, almost no increase in work intensity,

427
00:23:33,636 --> 00:23:38,276
Speaker 2: just a smidgeon higher and workload, but really wonderful big

428
00:23:38,316 --> 00:23:42,436
Speaker 2: increases in all those well being indicators, like sixty nine

429
00:23:42,516 --> 00:23:45,396
Speaker 2: percent of people who go through these trials have lower

430
00:23:45,476 --> 00:23:47,676
Speaker 2: levels of burnout in six months than they did at

431
00:23:47,756 --> 00:23:50,756
Speaker 2: the baseline. But the thing that was most surprising to us,

432
00:23:50,796 --> 00:23:54,476
Speaker 2: I think, was this huge jump in self reported productivity.

433
00:23:54,636 --> 00:23:57,836
Speaker 2: People just felt so much better about their jobs and

434
00:23:57,876 --> 00:24:00,356
Speaker 2: their performance and their jobs. And that turned out to

435
00:24:00,396 --> 00:24:03,876
Speaker 2: be so big and sort of understanding, you know, the

436
00:24:03,916 --> 00:24:05,796
Speaker 2: whole story of what was happening.

437
00:24:05,876 --> 00:24:08,556
Speaker 1: The first kinds of effects you tested were the change

438
00:24:08,796 --> 00:24:11,156
Speaker 1: for employees. What did you find?

439
00:24:11,556 --> 00:24:16,716
Speaker 2: So we find significant improvements in well being across the board.

440
00:24:16,996 --> 00:24:20,516
Speaker 2: So we measure people. We have the twenty well being

441
00:24:20,796 --> 00:24:25,676
Speaker 2: measures that they fill out before the trial starts. Interesting,

442
00:24:25,836 --> 00:24:29,356
Speaker 2: even in three months, you see significant increases. Then we

443
00:24:29,436 --> 00:24:32,876
Speaker 2: also surveyed at twelve months, and for a while we

444
00:24:32,876 --> 00:24:36,636
Speaker 2: were surveying at twenty four months. So basically every well

445
00:24:36,636 --> 00:24:42,076
Speaker 2: being indicator increases significantly, some with quite large increases. But

446
00:24:42,236 --> 00:24:47,596
Speaker 2: we're talking burnout, stress, fatigue, anxiety, physical health, mental health,

447
00:24:47,876 --> 00:24:53,236
Speaker 2: sleep levels, sleep problems, People exercise more. They score higher

448
00:24:53,276 --> 00:24:57,796
Speaker 2: on various types of satisfaction, satisfaction with time. Especially in

449
00:24:57,836 --> 00:25:01,196
Speaker 2: some cases, you see a big increase in satisfaction, say

450
00:25:01,196 --> 00:25:05,316
Speaker 2: with relationships with the restaurant workers who'd been working fifty

451
00:25:05,356 --> 00:25:08,676
Speaker 2: five hours before the trial. Now they got down to

452
00:25:08,716 --> 00:25:13,156
Speaker 2: about forty five hours, but their satisfaction with their relationships

453
00:25:13,236 --> 00:25:14,796
Speaker 2: went way up because they just.

454
00:25:14,916 --> 00:25:17,236
Speaker 3: Were able to be at home way more than they were.

455
00:25:17,356 --> 00:25:19,036
Speaker 1: One of the things I was shocked by in your

456
00:25:19,036 --> 00:25:21,916
Speaker 1: book was just the words that you talked about people using.

457
00:25:22,036 --> 00:25:24,276
Speaker 1: Give me a sense of just like how profound this

458
00:25:24,396 --> 00:25:26,196
Speaker 1: change was for the employees.

459
00:25:26,356 --> 00:25:29,036
Speaker 2: I think life changing. I mean some people would say

460
00:25:29,076 --> 00:25:35,516
Speaker 2: game changing, but life changing, transformational, best thing ever, very superlative.

461
00:25:36,596 --> 00:25:40,196
Speaker 2: Even I always think about this one comment I read

462
00:25:40,236 --> 00:25:43,156
Speaker 2: as a person just complaining about everything my job. There's

463
00:25:43,236 --> 00:25:46,116
Speaker 2: too much to do in four days and nobody else

464
00:25:46,156 --> 00:25:48,396
Speaker 2: can do it, and I don't you know this and that,

465
00:25:48,476 --> 00:25:51,516
Speaker 2: and then at the end the person says, but of

466
00:25:51,516 --> 00:25:55,556
Speaker 2: course this is so much better than a five day week.

467
00:25:55,956 --> 00:25:58,476
Speaker 1: So good, so good, I mean, and the reasons for

468
00:25:58,556 --> 00:26:00,396
Speaker 1: better were kind of surprising. I mean, some of the

469
00:26:00,476 --> 00:26:03,156
Speaker 1: changes really were emotional changes, like what people talked about

470
00:26:03,156 --> 00:26:05,676
Speaker 1: in terms of their stress and burnout. But I was

471
00:26:05,716 --> 00:26:07,556
Speaker 1: also shocked to see that you also saw a lot

472
00:26:07,596 --> 00:26:11,556
Speaker 1: of behavioral changes, like just people were using their time differently.

473
00:26:11,596 --> 00:26:13,516
Speaker 1: Give me a sense of what some of those behavioral

474
00:26:13,636 --> 00:26:14,156
Speaker 1: changes were.

475
00:26:14,516 --> 00:26:18,396
Speaker 2: So we did at the three month point, we did

476
00:26:18,396 --> 00:26:20,796
Speaker 2: what's called a time diaries. We wanted to see how

477
00:26:20,916 --> 00:26:23,516
Speaker 2: people were spending that off day. The thing that people

478
00:26:23,516 --> 00:26:29,236
Speaker 2: spent most time on was leisure activities and hobbies. They

479
00:26:29,396 --> 00:26:31,676
Speaker 2: just were able to get into things that they loved

480
00:26:31,836 --> 00:26:34,556
Speaker 2: or just relaxing in ways that they loved. You know,

481
00:26:34,596 --> 00:26:37,116
Speaker 2: some might have joined a chorus or a theater group,

482
00:26:37,156 --> 00:26:40,876
Speaker 2: but then others it's I can have a pedicure without guilt,

483
00:26:40,996 --> 00:26:43,916
Speaker 2: or I go visit my grandmother every Friday.

484
00:26:44,956 --> 00:26:46,036
Speaker 3: Gym is a big one.

485
00:26:46,156 --> 00:26:49,036
Speaker 2: Doing more exercise, which we know is so key to

486
00:26:49,316 --> 00:26:52,196
Speaker 2: people's wellbeing and happiness. I mean, the other thing is

487
00:26:52,436 --> 00:26:54,796
Speaker 2: sleeping more or catching up.

488
00:26:55,036 --> 00:26:55,236
Speaker 3: You know.

489
00:26:55,276 --> 00:26:57,716
Speaker 2: Part of what that having that extra day does is

490
00:26:57,756 --> 00:27:01,396
Speaker 2: it makes the other days less frenetic, especially where we

491
00:27:01,436 --> 00:27:04,436
Speaker 2: talked to some of the really senior people who just

492
00:27:04,676 --> 00:27:07,316
Speaker 2: you know, have overwhelming workloads. So they were able to

493
00:27:07,356 --> 00:27:09,476
Speaker 2: shift some of that to the Friday, and then that

494
00:27:09,516 --> 00:27:12,036
Speaker 2: would free up other parts of their week. So they

495
00:27:12,076 --> 00:27:14,196
Speaker 2: just had a much more they could catch up. They

496
00:27:14,236 --> 00:27:15,796
Speaker 2: didn't have to catch up on Sundays.

497
00:27:15,876 --> 00:27:18,396
Speaker 1: Right, And what's so remarkable about some of these changes

498
00:27:18,436 --> 00:27:20,356
Speaker 1: is that so many companies have been trying to figure

499
00:27:20,356 --> 00:27:24,556
Speaker 1: out a mechanism to help their employees feel less stressed. Right,

500
00:27:24,596 --> 00:27:27,636
Speaker 1: So so many companies bring in you know, wellness apps

501
00:27:27,716 --> 00:27:31,476
Speaker 1: or meditation classes and you know, while those techniques tend

502
00:27:31,476 --> 00:27:34,956
Speaker 1: to work, the research shows my understanding of the literature

503
00:27:34,956 --> 00:27:37,116
Speaker 1: and companies is that by and large those kinds of

504
00:27:37,116 --> 00:27:39,156
Speaker 1: things have mostly been a failure. They don't move the

505
00:27:39,196 --> 00:27:42,436
Speaker 1: needle that much. But this kind of intervention is moving

506
00:27:42,476 --> 00:27:44,396
Speaker 1: the needle a lot. Right. People are sleeping more and

507
00:27:44,436 --> 00:27:48,756
Speaker 1: exercising more and saying that they have transformationally less stress.

508
00:27:49,156 --> 00:27:51,036
Speaker 1: I mean, why do you think the four day work

509
00:27:51,036 --> 00:27:53,556
Speaker 1: week works so much better than some of these other techniques.

510
00:27:53,956 --> 00:27:56,596
Speaker 3: So I think there are two reasons. One is it's big.

511
00:27:57,196 --> 00:27:59,956
Speaker 2: I remember I once I was having migraines and I

512
00:27:59,996 --> 00:28:03,796
Speaker 2: went to the doctor and the doctor prescribed that I

513
00:28:03,876 --> 00:28:06,436
Speaker 2: go by an aquarium so I could look at the

514
00:28:06,476 --> 00:28:09,396
Speaker 2: fish and relax. I mean, anyway, that created a lot

515
00:28:09,436 --> 00:28:11,236
Speaker 2: of stress for me because then I had to gittle

516
00:28:11,316 --> 00:28:14,076
Speaker 2: buy the aquarium and keep the fish alive and whatever.

517
00:28:14,636 --> 00:28:18,836
Speaker 2: And there's a sense in which some of those wellness things,

518
00:28:18,996 --> 00:28:21,516
Speaker 2: you know, they just require people to perform and do

519
00:28:21,676 --> 00:28:24,156
Speaker 2: things that just puts one more thing on their plate. Now,

520
00:28:24,236 --> 00:28:27,436
Speaker 2: they may work for some, but also, as you say,

521
00:28:27,596 --> 00:28:30,836
Speaker 2: they are, they're small things. So number one is a

522
00:28:31,156 --> 00:28:34,916
Speaker 2: huge block of time, and number two it gives people

523
00:28:34,996 --> 00:28:39,076
Speaker 2: what they need, which is people are time stressed, and

524
00:28:39,396 --> 00:28:41,396
Speaker 2: those things don't give them more time.

525
00:28:41,436 --> 00:28:43,956
Speaker 3: In fact, they take time to do. So that's number one.

526
00:28:44,076 --> 00:28:46,916
Speaker 2: But I think there's another really important thing they don't

527
00:28:46,956 --> 00:28:50,956
Speaker 2: get at the underlying sources of the stress, part of

528
00:28:50,996 --> 00:28:55,236
Speaker 2: which is those excessive work time. And in the past

529
00:28:55,276 --> 00:28:59,236
Speaker 2: we've had individual accommodations to people, so you might go

530
00:28:59,276 --> 00:29:01,516
Speaker 2: on a part time schedule and give up that income

531
00:29:01,636 --> 00:29:04,316
Speaker 2: or whatever, and then you'd have a stigma, you would

532
00:29:04,356 --> 00:29:07,196
Speaker 2: stop progressing in your career and so forth. Where you

533
00:29:07,316 --> 00:29:12,916
Speaker 2: get the whole organization changes. This is really important. Everybody changes.

534
00:29:13,036 --> 00:29:16,796
Speaker 2: We have measures now in our surveys of the sense

535
00:29:16,876 --> 00:29:19,956
Speaker 2: to which people believe that at their company you have

536
00:29:20,036 --> 00:29:24,076
Speaker 2: to be an ideal worker in order to succeed, and

537
00:29:24,116 --> 00:29:28,116
Speaker 2: that falls with the four day week. Because the whole

538
00:29:28,156 --> 00:29:32,156
Speaker 2: culture changes, nobody's being penalized for taking that time off.

539
00:29:32,156 --> 00:29:35,396
Speaker 2: You think about, oh, we just gave our employees unlimited

540
00:29:35,436 --> 00:29:38,036
Speaker 2: paid time off, you know, but people can't take it

541
00:29:38,316 --> 00:29:40,916
Speaker 2: because they're worried about the stigma or because it doesn't

542
00:29:40,956 --> 00:29:44,596
Speaker 2: transform their workload. Here the whole company got together and

543
00:29:44,676 --> 00:29:47,356
Speaker 2: figured out how to takes stuff off people's plate and

544
00:29:47,396 --> 00:29:50,156
Speaker 2: give them the time back, and it's just such a

545
00:29:50,316 --> 00:29:53,956
Speaker 2: different thing. One is to put it onto the individual.

546
00:29:53,996 --> 00:29:56,396
Speaker 2: Oh you're stressed, Well, the problem is you don't do

547
00:29:56,476 --> 00:29:59,436
Speaker 2: enough yoga or you're not mindful. No, the problem is

548
00:29:59,716 --> 00:30:02,276
Speaker 2: you've organized a workplace that is too demanding.

549
00:30:02,556 --> 00:30:05,876
Speaker 1: So so many of these positive changes came about. And

550
00:30:06,316 --> 00:30:07,876
Speaker 1: the other cool thing about your book is that it

551
00:30:07,916 --> 00:30:10,756
Speaker 1: looked at the sort of path pathways towards these positive

552
00:30:10,836 --> 00:30:13,316
Speaker 1: changes right kind of where they came from. And one

553
00:30:13,356 --> 00:30:15,436
Speaker 1: pathway is one that we've talked about a lot. Right

554
00:30:15,596 --> 00:30:18,396
Speaker 1: outside of work, people are doing different things. They're exercising,

555
00:30:18,476 --> 00:30:21,116
Speaker 1: they're sleeping more, they're seeing their grandma, they're having more

556
00:30:21,116 --> 00:30:23,396
Speaker 1: time for their family. But I think I was shocked

557
00:30:23,436 --> 00:30:25,356
Speaker 1: by in your book is that there's a second pathway

558
00:30:25,356 --> 00:30:28,116
Speaker 1: to get towards these positive changes, and that's a set

559
00:30:28,156 --> 00:30:31,596
Speaker 1: of changes that employees are experiencing during the work day.

560
00:30:32,196 --> 00:30:35,396
Speaker 1: Talk about what's happening there to change how employees are

561
00:30:35,396 --> 00:30:36,876
Speaker 1: feeling and how stress they feel.

562
00:30:37,396 --> 00:30:41,436
Speaker 2: Yeah, that pathway, which is the transformation of people's work

563
00:30:41,516 --> 00:30:46,436
Speaker 2: experience from the five to four, was not necessarily something

564
00:30:46,476 --> 00:30:50,476
Speaker 2: that we had anticipated. But what happens is that people

565
00:30:50,756 --> 00:30:54,316
Speaker 2: feel so much more productive at work. They feel on

566
00:30:54,436 --> 00:30:57,796
Speaker 2: top of their work, instead of things like coming to

567
00:30:57,876 --> 00:31:00,956
Speaker 2: the middle of the week that hump day they call

568
00:31:01,036 --> 00:31:03,836
Speaker 2: Wednesday the hump day and feeling like, oh my god,

569
00:31:03,836 --> 00:31:06,636
Speaker 2: I can't get through the week, so already feeling stressed,

570
00:31:06,756 --> 00:31:11,996
Speaker 2: or so called Sunday scaries, really dreading going back to work. Instead,

571
00:31:12,116 --> 00:31:15,356
Speaker 2: what people tell us is they feel refreshed and ready

572
00:31:15,396 --> 00:31:18,036
Speaker 2: to get back in. And when they come back in

573
00:31:18,276 --> 00:31:21,676
Speaker 2: they use terminology like my whole self is there. I'm

574
00:31:21,876 --> 00:31:25,356
Speaker 2: energized to be back. I'm excited about the work. They

575
00:31:25,356 --> 00:31:29,436
Speaker 2: have energy levels and motivation, and it shows up in

576
00:31:29,476 --> 00:31:33,276
Speaker 2: their self reports of productivity and work ability. We ask

577
00:31:33,316 --> 00:31:36,836
Speaker 2: them your current workability compared to your lifetime best. But

578
00:31:37,276 --> 00:31:40,156
Speaker 2: the other thing is that because they feel so much

579
00:31:40,196 --> 00:31:42,796
Speaker 2: more competent and on top of their work, they score

580
00:31:42,876 --> 00:31:47,276
Speaker 2: higher on the smart working scale, So they feel competent

581
00:31:47,436 --> 00:31:50,516
Speaker 2: and smart efficient and that just.

582
00:31:50,476 --> 00:31:51,596
Speaker 3: Makes people feel good.

583
00:31:51,956 --> 00:31:54,796
Speaker 2: Why who we are at work, It's a big part

584
00:31:54,836 --> 00:31:57,956
Speaker 2: of our well being, and it's also a big.

585
00:31:57,796 --> 00:31:59,036
Speaker 3: Part of how we spend our time.

586
00:31:59,116 --> 00:32:01,196
Speaker 2: We spend a lot of time at work, so feeling

587
00:32:01,276 --> 00:32:05,356
Speaker 2: good about what we're doing rather than sort of ending

588
00:32:05,516 --> 00:32:10,116
Speaker 2: the day feeling drained and horrible. It's just it really

589
00:32:10,156 --> 00:32:15,236
Speaker 2: improves their emotional and physical They say it improved, you know,

590
00:32:15,236 --> 00:32:17,916
Speaker 2: I think it improves people's physical wellbeing as well.

591
00:32:18,356 --> 00:32:21,116
Speaker 1: I love this result about what's happening inside work so

592
00:32:21,196 --> 00:32:24,076
Speaker 1: much because I think a thing that people don't realize

593
00:32:24,076 --> 00:32:26,876
Speaker 1: about burnout, and this comes from the work of Christina Maslack,

594
00:32:27,316 --> 00:32:29,516
Speaker 1: is that one of the main symptoms of burnout is

595
00:32:29,516 --> 00:32:32,516
Speaker 1: what she calls a sense of personal ineffectiveness. You feel

596
00:32:32,556 --> 00:32:34,516
Speaker 1: like even if you were doing your job perfectly, it

597
00:32:34,556 --> 00:32:36,836
Speaker 1: kind of wouldn't matter, or would feel sort of crappy,

598
00:32:36,876 --> 00:32:38,916
Speaker 1: it wouldn't be worth it. And it seems like what

599
00:32:38,916 --> 00:32:40,996
Speaker 1: you're intervening on with the four day work week is

600
00:32:41,036 --> 00:32:43,676
Speaker 1: you get people to feel like they're effective at work.

601
00:32:43,956 --> 00:32:46,156
Speaker 1: And what happens is the opposite of all the emotions

602
00:32:46,156 --> 00:32:48,756
Speaker 1: that come with burnout. You feel kind of excited to

603
00:32:48,756 --> 00:32:51,396
Speaker 1: be on your job, you feel agency, you feel intentional,

604
00:32:51,396 --> 00:32:54,276
Speaker 1: and those things just contribute to people's happiness, I think

605
00:32:54,276 --> 00:32:56,236
Speaker 1: in lots of ways that we don't really expect.

606
00:32:56,316 --> 00:32:57,836
Speaker 3: Yeah, that seems so right to me.

607
00:32:58,036 --> 00:33:00,556
Speaker 2: And then the other piece of it I would add

608
00:33:00,796 --> 00:33:04,436
Speaker 2: is they also feel more loyal to their jobs.

609
00:33:04,476 --> 00:33:05,956
Speaker 3: They value their jobs more.

610
00:33:05,996 --> 00:33:08,756
Speaker 2: I mean, this gets to why people in four day

611
00:33:08,756 --> 00:33:13,236
Speaker 2: week companies don't quit. They almost ever quit. They's so

612
00:33:13,316 --> 00:33:17,236
Speaker 2: much more positive about their work. It's not a source

613
00:33:17,276 --> 00:33:20,916
Speaker 2: that's draining them. It's a source that they're getting energy from.

614
00:33:20,956 --> 00:33:23,796
Speaker 1: So it seems like people really enjoyed this. They got

615
00:33:23,836 --> 00:33:27,556
Speaker 1: a lot out of this emotionally, behaviorally. Did you get

616
00:33:27,596 --> 00:33:29,876
Speaker 1: a sense of how many employees wanted to keep this

617
00:33:29,916 --> 00:33:32,236
Speaker 1: new policy in place? How many were like, yes, let's

618
00:33:32,316 --> 00:33:33,316
Speaker 1: keep going with this trial.

619
00:33:33,596 --> 00:33:37,356
Speaker 2: Yes, it's about ninety four and ninety five percent when

620
00:33:37,396 --> 00:33:40,556
Speaker 2: we ask which you prefer? And then so we ask

621
00:33:40,636 --> 00:33:43,516
Speaker 2: which they prefer, And then we asked them if they

622
00:33:43,516 --> 00:33:46,236
Speaker 2: were going to another job, if it were a five

623
00:33:46,396 --> 00:33:50,356
Speaker 2: day week job, what would their salary requirements be, Because

624
00:33:50,396 --> 00:33:53,556
Speaker 2: if they prefer this, maybe they would want more money

625
00:33:53,636 --> 00:33:57,476
Speaker 2: to go to a five day And there's pretty significant

626
00:33:57,796 --> 00:34:01,356
Speaker 2: salary increases required all the way up to the thirteen

627
00:34:01,396 --> 00:34:04,556
Speaker 2: percent to say, no amount of money could induce me

628
00:34:04,636 --> 00:34:06,076
Speaker 2: to take five.

629
00:34:05,956 --> 00:34:08,436
Speaker 1: Day I'm never giving this up, no matter how much

630
00:34:08,436 --> 00:34:08,636
Speaker 1: you are.

631
00:34:09,236 --> 00:34:12,196
Speaker 2: That twenty five to fifty percent increase in salary that's

632
00:34:12,236 --> 00:34:13,356
Speaker 2: a lot of increase.

633
00:34:13,956 --> 00:34:16,756
Speaker 1: So most workers really value a four day week and

634
00:34:16,796 --> 00:34:19,516
Speaker 1: would even need a substantial pay rise to go back

635
00:34:19,516 --> 00:34:22,316
Speaker 1: to the old system. But are there any benefits for

636
00:34:22,396 --> 00:34:25,876
Speaker 1: companies to offer shorter weeks. We'll have the surprising answer

637
00:34:25,876 --> 00:34:28,836
Speaker 1: to that question when the Happiness Lab returns in a moment.

638
00:34:37,556 --> 00:34:39,836
Speaker 1: Here's a no brainer question for you. Would you like

639
00:34:39,876 --> 00:34:43,036
Speaker 1: a big reduction in your working hours with no corresponding

640
00:34:43,036 --> 00:34:45,636
Speaker 1: cut to your pay. That sounds like a great deal

641
00:34:46,076 --> 00:34:49,236
Speaker 1: unless you're an employer paying the same money just for

642
00:34:49,276 --> 00:34:52,636
Speaker 1: your staff to stay home. That sounds terrible. But economist

643
00:34:52,756 --> 00:34:56,076
Speaker 1: Juliette Shore has found that bosses also see the benefit

644
00:34:56,156 --> 00:34:57,356
Speaker 1: of a reduced work week.

645
00:34:57,916 --> 00:35:01,796
Speaker 2: So the model is called the one hundred eighty one

646
00:35:01,876 --> 00:35:07,556
Speaker 2: hundred model. It was invented or conceptualized by Andrew Barnes,

647
00:35:07,796 --> 00:35:11,476
Speaker 2: who was the New Zealand entrepreneur who did this at

648
00:35:11,476 --> 00:35:15,076
Speaker 2: his company. He actually asked his employees to sign a

649
00:35:15,196 --> 00:35:17,436
Speaker 2: contract saying that if they got a four day week

650
00:35:17,476 --> 00:35:19,436
Speaker 2: with no reduction in pay, they would do one hundred

651
00:35:19,436 --> 00:35:21,796
Speaker 2: percent of the work that they were currently doing. That

652
00:35:22,036 --> 00:35:24,676
Speaker 2: was the dominant model, based on the idea that there

653
00:35:24,676 --> 00:35:29,716
Speaker 2: were enough ways that companies could save time through looking

654
00:35:29,876 --> 00:35:33,396
Speaker 2: at things they were doing that were wasting time. Meetings

655
00:35:33,516 --> 00:35:37,556
Speaker 2: being really key there, like excessive numbers of meetings, too

656
00:35:37,636 --> 00:35:40,276
Speaker 2: many people at them, meetings that went on too long, etc.

657
00:35:40,716 --> 00:35:44,196
Speaker 2: Creating focused time for people where they could just put

658
00:35:44,196 --> 00:35:46,396
Speaker 2: the head down and get a lot done and not

659
00:35:46,596 --> 00:35:50,676
Speaker 2: be distracted by constant interruptions. There's a whole science of

660
00:35:50,756 --> 00:35:54,276
Speaker 2: work interruptions which shows that it's very bad for people.

661
00:35:54,636 --> 00:35:59,436
Speaker 2: It's stressful, but also obviously it's going to interrupt their productivity.

662
00:35:58,996 --> 00:36:00,356
Speaker 3: To other kinds of things.

663
00:36:00,396 --> 00:36:03,156
Speaker 2: Where they brought in speakers who talked about had they

664
00:36:03,196 --> 00:36:05,596
Speaker 2: done this in their own companies and figured out they

665
00:36:05,596 --> 00:36:08,276
Speaker 2: were spending a lot of time doing things that weren't

666
00:36:08,316 --> 00:36:11,916
Speaker 2: yielding much value, so kind of getting intentional about what

667
00:36:11,996 --> 00:36:15,676
Speaker 2: you do. What these companies did to reorganize work and

668
00:36:15,716 --> 00:36:19,276
Speaker 2: make it possible to get everything done in four days

669
00:36:19,556 --> 00:36:24,156
Speaker 2: really varied. Like at the brewery we studied, they did

670
00:36:24,196 --> 00:36:27,316
Speaker 2: time and motion studies for all the tasks. There are

671
00:36:27,316 --> 00:36:29,876
Speaker 2: many stat tasks that go into brewing, a lot of

672
00:36:29,996 --> 00:36:33,756
Speaker 2: cleaning equipment and you know, waiting around. They figured out

673
00:36:33,756 --> 00:36:37,276
Speaker 2: how much time each task could take. They sequenced them

674
00:36:37,276 --> 00:36:41,156
Speaker 2: differently so they could slot shorter tasks into things that

675
00:36:41,196 --> 00:36:42,956
Speaker 2: took a long time, but that had sort of dead

676
00:36:42,996 --> 00:36:45,116
Speaker 2: time in the middle and so for so that's one

677
00:36:45,196 --> 00:36:48,996
Speaker 2: model that was probably the dominant model. But one of

678
00:36:48,996 --> 00:36:53,116
Speaker 2: the things I realized as I was doing interviews for

679
00:36:53,236 --> 00:36:56,036
Speaker 2: my book, and as I was also looking at other

680
00:36:56,156 --> 00:37:00,156
Speaker 2: data and just hearing companies talk about what was going on,

681
00:37:01,236 --> 00:37:05,076
Speaker 2: was there was another model which was based less on

682
00:37:05,236 --> 00:37:09,676
Speaker 2: sort of meetings and time saving and more on keeping

683
00:37:09,716 --> 00:37:12,876
Speaker 2: people from leaving, and that you had a whole group

684
00:37:12,916 --> 00:37:18,356
Speaker 2: of companies who were experiencing high levels of quits which

685
00:37:18,396 --> 00:37:23,796
Speaker 2: are very costly, or high levels of burnout, which even

686
00:37:23,796 --> 00:37:26,636
Speaker 2: if they didn't lead to quits, were just leading to,

687
00:37:26,956 --> 00:37:27,396
Speaker 2: you know.

688
00:37:27,276 --> 00:37:28,476
Speaker 3: Not good outcomes.

689
00:37:28,956 --> 00:37:31,876
Speaker 2: Some of these were basically saying to me, we just

690
00:37:31,916 --> 00:37:35,476
Speaker 2: gave people a break most of the companies. Was that

691
00:37:35,556 --> 00:37:39,556
Speaker 2: one hundred eighty hundred. But as I was analyzing the

692
00:37:39,636 --> 00:37:42,436
Speaker 2: data and doing interviews and so forth for the book,

693
00:37:42,636 --> 00:37:45,596
Speaker 2: I realized you had a group of companies that I

694
00:37:45,716 --> 00:37:48,996
Speaker 2: called one hundred eighty eighty. People get one hundred percent

695
00:37:49,076 --> 00:37:51,716
Speaker 2: of the money, They only have to work eighty percent

696
00:37:51,756 --> 00:37:55,036
Speaker 2: of the time, and they're not expected to do more

697
00:37:55,156 --> 00:37:55,876
Speaker 2: than eighty.

698
00:37:55,676 --> 00:37:56,516
Speaker 3: Percent of the work.

699
00:37:56,596 --> 00:37:59,356
Speaker 2: So they work at their normal pace on those four days,

700
00:37:59,356 --> 00:38:01,916
Speaker 2: but they get an extra day, and those companies are

701
00:38:01,956 --> 00:38:05,916
Speaker 2: the ones where work intensity is very high. In other words,

702
00:38:05,956 --> 00:38:08,476
Speaker 2: we gave them a day off and we didn't really

703
00:38:08,596 --> 00:38:11,476
Speaker 2: change that much about what was happening on the other

704
00:38:11,556 --> 00:38:14,596
Speaker 2: four days. They didn't have a lot of meetings, they

705
00:38:14,596 --> 00:38:18,756
Speaker 2: didn't have slack time. People were running really fast. And

706
00:38:19,276 --> 00:38:23,236
Speaker 2: I call this the paradox of intensity, because that first

707
00:38:23,276 --> 00:38:27,316
Speaker 2: group are sort of low intensity workplaces, but these others

708
00:38:27,396 --> 00:38:30,276
Speaker 2: are really high intensity. And what was happening in the

709
00:38:30,276 --> 00:38:34,236
Speaker 2: healthcare organizations and in the restaurant chain that I looked into.

710
00:38:34,396 --> 00:38:38,636
Speaker 2: You know, kitchens run really efficiently in restaurants. They're not

711
00:38:38,796 --> 00:38:43,276
Speaker 2: sitting around having meetings there. You watch a kitchen out

712
00:38:43,316 --> 00:38:45,916
Speaker 2: of you know, a good restaurant, they're like, whooah, they're

713
00:38:45,916 --> 00:38:49,516
Speaker 2: really they're moving and they're really burned out at the

714
00:38:49,636 --> 00:38:51,516
Speaker 2: end of the day or the end of the week,

715
00:38:51,636 --> 00:38:54,436
Speaker 2: and so they're just, nope, you got an extra day off,

716
00:38:55,076 --> 00:38:57,796
Speaker 2: You're still going to do things pretty much the same

717
00:38:57,796 --> 00:38:59,356
Speaker 2: way on the FOSSE four days.

718
00:38:59,916 --> 00:39:02,556
Speaker 3: Same thing with some of the nurses studies.

719
00:39:02,836 --> 00:39:07,916
Speaker 2: So the nurses studies were nurse managers, So these were

720
00:39:07,996 --> 00:39:10,076
Speaker 2: a lot of the entry level nurses are on three

721
00:39:10,156 --> 00:39:12,436
Speaker 2: twelve hour shifts, so it's the four day week.

722
00:39:12,276 --> 00:39:13,716
Speaker 3: Is not so relevant for them.

723
00:39:13,916 --> 00:39:16,356
Speaker 2: But you have these nurse managers working five days with

724
00:39:16,476 --> 00:39:19,076
Speaker 2: really long hours, and they burning out a lot, and

725
00:39:19,116 --> 00:39:22,996
Speaker 2: they're the most experienced and responsible, you know, they're running things.

726
00:39:23,996 --> 00:39:26,556
Speaker 2: A couple of these hospitals just said you're on four

727
00:39:26,676 --> 00:39:30,876
Speaker 2: days now, So you had people rescinding their resignations when

728
00:39:30,876 --> 00:39:35,836
Speaker 2: they got that news, and they don't leave patient outcomes improve.

729
00:39:36,156 --> 00:39:38,916
Speaker 2: In both of these cases, they figured out how to

730
00:39:39,156 --> 00:39:42,676
Speaker 2: adjust their divisions of labor. In the restaurant, they hired

731
00:39:42,676 --> 00:39:45,356
Speaker 2: a few people, but the costs, they said was really

732
00:39:45,396 --> 00:39:48,716
Speaker 2: minimal compared to the benefits. In the nursing studies, they

733
00:39:48,796 --> 00:39:51,916
Speaker 2: tended not to actually hire new people. They just changed

734
00:39:51,956 --> 00:39:56,436
Speaker 2: responsibilities and they gave people that third full day off

735
00:39:56,516 --> 00:40:00,396
Speaker 2: where they could just decompress and rest and just had

736
00:40:00,476 --> 00:40:02,396
Speaker 2: really really strong results.

737
00:40:02,556 --> 00:40:04,236
Speaker 1: Give me a sense of the kinds of companies that

738
00:40:04,356 --> 00:40:05,156
Speaker 1: join this trial.

739
00:40:05,276 --> 00:40:08,636
Speaker 2: Well, we have all kinds of companies in these studies.

740
00:40:08,676 --> 00:40:12,636
Speaker 2: So we have some restaurants, brewery, there are healthcare, so

741
00:40:12,676 --> 00:40:18,796
Speaker 2: there's manufacturing. We have an RV customization manufacturing plant, a

742
00:40:18,876 --> 00:40:23,156
Speaker 2: company that makes skateboards, but most of them are white collar,

743
00:40:23,276 --> 00:40:26,196
Speaker 2: so the large number of white collar. The biggest group

744
00:40:26,436 --> 00:40:31,036
Speaker 2: are professional services, so there are a lot in graphic

745
00:40:31,156 --> 00:40:38,156
Speaker 2: design or PR, marketing, advertising. We have lawyers, architects, finance,

746
00:40:38,476 --> 00:40:41,876
Speaker 2: so there are banks, a lot of tech firms. There

747
00:40:41,916 --> 00:40:44,516
Speaker 2: are a lot of social services. There are also some

748
00:40:44,836 --> 00:40:48,756
Speaker 2: local governments, and we're seeing more and more local governments.

749
00:40:48,316 --> 00:40:50,116
Speaker 1: So it seems like it was really broad. This was

750
00:40:50,156 --> 00:40:52,516
Speaker 1: trying to ask whether the four day work week worked

751
00:40:52,756 --> 00:40:54,116
Speaker 1: across all kinds of form.

752
00:40:54,196 --> 00:40:58,276
Speaker 2: It does, but here are the caveats. Number one, these

753
00:40:58,276 --> 00:41:01,716
Speaker 2: are mostly small firms. The biggest firm that really did

754
00:41:01,716 --> 00:41:04,356
Speaker 2: it for a lot of employees was a five thousand

755
00:41:04,436 --> 00:41:08,236
Speaker 2: person kind of a social services healthcare firm in the UK,

756
00:41:08,676 --> 00:41:12,036
Speaker 2: which started with a thousand of its five thousand employees,

757
00:41:12,356 --> 00:41:14,676
Speaker 2: and then after the success of the trial, they've been

758
00:41:14,796 --> 00:41:17,356
Speaker 2: rolling it out to all of them. But a lot

759
00:41:17,436 --> 00:41:19,156
Speaker 2: of them are in the you know, sort of one

760
00:41:19,196 --> 00:41:22,876
Speaker 2: to five hundred person range, or the even the twenty

761
00:41:22,876 --> 00:41:24,996
Speaker 2: five to fifty, you know, and then we have the

762
00:41:25,276 --> 00:41:28,276
Speaker 2: big clump of really little firms to under twenty person,

763
00:41:28,796 --> 00:41:32,476
Speaker 2: so we don't have a giant firm that has transitioned

764
00:41:32,476 --> 00:41:35,196
Speaker 2: to everybody. Yet I think the giant firms are going

765
00:41:35,276 --> 00:41:37,996
Speaker 2: to do it. They're going to start with some divisions.

766
00:41:38,796 --> 00:41:43,196
Speaker 2: We are very overwhelmingly white collar, though, but a range

767
00:41:43,356 --> 00:41:46,876
Speaker 2: of white collar if you count I don't know, social

768
00:41:46,876 --> 00:41:50,596
Speaker 2: service workers. If you're a head start teacher, or you know,

769
00:41:50,636 --> 00:41:55,396
Speaker 2: a residential counselor in a facility for young people.

770
00:41:55,476 --> 00:41:57,196
Speaker 3: I don't know if that's considered white collar.

771
00:41:57,436 --> 00:41:59,356
Speaker 1: No, that makes sense. That makes sense. So starting with

772
00:41:59,396 --> 00:42:02,476
Speaker 1: the companies that really were not trying to decrease their productivity,

773
00:42:02,476 --> 00:42:04,596
Speaker 1: they were hoping in four days that workers could do

774
00:42:04,836 --> 00:42:07,116
Speaker 1: just about as much. How are they able to make

775
00:42:07,156 --> 00:42:09,116
Speaker 1: that change? Like what did they take off their place

776
00:42:09,276 --> 00:42:10,636
Speaker 1: to keep employees productive?

777
00:42:10,836 --> 00:42:13,636
Speaker 2: The biggest things, the bread and butter of what they

778
00:42:13,676 --> 00:42:17,396
Speaker 2: were taught was meetings and focused times. So those are

779
00:42:17,436 --> 00:42:22,076
Speaker 2: really key. But the process was a kind of employee

780
00:42:22,116 --> 00:42:26,276
Speaker 2: empowered work reorganization. Let's say you have a team, they

781
00:42:26,316 --> 00:42:30,476
Speaker 2: get together and they might do like a very intensive

782
00:42:30,596 --> 00:42:34,156
Speaker 2: scrutiny of everything that they do, all the documents they

783
00:42:34,196 --> 00:42:34,956
Speaker 2: have to fill out.

784
00:42:35,036 --> 00:42:36,196
Speaker 3: You know, what are the steps.

785
00:42:36,236 --> 00:42:38,756
Speaker 2: I remember talking to someone who did accounting in a firm,

786
00:42:38,836 --> 00:42:42,876
Speaker 2: like every step of approval of an invoice, you know,

787
00:42:42,916 --> 00:42:45,916
Speaker 2: and figure out where the bottlenecks were. I call that

788
00:42:45,956 --> 00:42:49,236
Speaker 2: in the book process engineering. That comes from manufacturing, where

789
00:42:49,276 --> 00:42:51,116
Speaker 2: you're looking at all your steps, but you can do

790
00:42:51,156 --> 00:42:52,316
Speaker 2: that in offices too.

791
00:42:52,716 --> 00:42:54,716
Speaker 3: But then you have some other kinds of things.

792
00:42:54,836 --> 00:42:57,756
Speaker 2: Like at Kickstarter, which is a tech firm, one of

793
00:42:57,756 --> 00:43:00,636
Speaker 2: the things I learned is that the senior leadership team

794
00:43:01,196 --> 00:43:03,836
Speaker 2: realized that it had to make changes in how it

795
00:43:03,916 --> 00:43:08,356
Speaker 2: gave instructions to its development teams. So once a new

796
00:43:08,396 --> 00:43:12,596
Speaker 2: product some some instructions, the development team goes down a road,

797
00:43:12,716 --> 00:43:14,796
Speaker 2: it gets to a fork in the road, very common

798
00:43:14,836 --> 00:43:18,756
Speaker 2: in software development. They don't know what the leadership perverts.

799
00:43:18,956 --> 00:43:21,236
Speaker 2: They'd go off on one and then the leadership looks

800
00:43:21,316 --> 00:43:23,196
Speaker 2: at it. No, no, we really wanted the others. So

801
00:43:23,876 --> 00:43:27,196
Speaker 2: what the leadership had to do is figure out how

802
00:43:27,236 --> 00:43:31,716
Speaker 2: to decide what they want earlier and give more detailed

803
00:43:31,756 --> 00:43:35,396
Speaker 2: instructions to the team and then give the team more autonomy.

804
00:43:35,716 --> 00:43:40,476
Speaker 2: And that point about more upfront investment came up in

805
00:43:40,556 --> 00:43:44,756
Speaker 2: some other contexts. So for example, where you have customer

806
00:43:45,196 --> 00:43:50,196
Speaker 2: service in IT companies providing internet service to rural areas

807
00:43:50,476 --> 00:43:52,636
Speaker 2: and they got a huge new contract at the same

808
00:43:52,636 --> 00:43:54,636
Speaker 2: time they started the four day week. And when I

809
00:43:54,676 --> 00:43:58,236
Speaker 2: went back to talk to them at six months, you know,

810
00:43:58,276 --> 00:44:00,356
Speaker 2: they tell me they'd just gotten this big contract. We

811
00:44:00,396 --> 00:44:03,756
Speaker 2: didn't know that when we when they started, Well, how

812
00:44:03,796 --> 00:44:05,716
Speaker 2: did you make it work? I mean it seems like

813
00:44:05,756 --> 00:44:08,156
Speaker 2: it would be impossible, And they said no, Actually, the

814
00:44:08,196 --> 00:44:10,476
Speaker 2: four day week made upon possible. So they had a

815
00:44:10,556 --> 00:44:13,036
Speaker 2: massive increase in demand. Well how could that be?

816
00:44:13,156 --> 00:44:13,636
Speaker 3: Number one?

817
00:44:13,836 --> 00:44:16,116
Speaker 2: They said it stopped people from getting burned out so

818
00:44:16,156 --> 00:44:19,316
Speaker 2: they could keep working hard. But the other big thing

819
00:44:19,516 --> 00:44:23,316
Speaker 2: was it forced them to document what they were doing.

820
00:44:23,356 --> 00:44:27,516
Speaker 2: So whenever a customer service complaint came in, they weren't

821
00:44:27,676 --> 00:44:30,196
Speaker 2: doing the documentation. So the next time the same one

822
00:44:30,236 --> 00:44:33,276
Speaker 2: comes in, somebody has to reinvent the wheel. If you

823
00:44:33,356 --> 00:44:38,596
Speaker 2: document upfront, I mean, it's a basic principle of customer service, right,

824
00:44:38,636 --> 00:44:42,076
Speaker 2: But unless you put in that upfront time, you may

825
00:44:42,196 --> 00:44:44,516
Speaker 2: just be constantly trying to keep your head above water

826
00:44:44,796 --> 00:44:47,516
Speaker 2: and not do it. And that's something that I talked

827
00:44:47,556 --> 00:44:49,956
Speaker 2: to a number of people about lose, like the things

828
00:44:49,996 --> 00:44:52,676
Speaker 2: that seemed obvious that they should have done, or like

829
00:44:52,876 --> 00:44:55,636
Speaker 2: why do you have so many dysfunctional meetings, or why

830
00:44:55,676 --> 00:44:59,076
Speaker 2: don't you give people more focused time, and it was like, Oh,

831
00:44:59,116 --> 00:45:01,756
Speaker 2: we're just trying to keep our head above water. So

832
00:45:02,556 --> 00:45:04,996
Speaker 2: I liken it too, that thing about you get a

833
00:45:04,996 --> 00:45:07,156
Speaker 2: new piece of software and you just start using it

834
00:45:07,236 --> 00:45:10,276
Speaker 2: instead of like learn it to figure out how it

835
00:45:10,356 --> 00:45:10,796
Speaker 2: can help.

836
00:45:10,876 --> 00:45:13,156
Speaker 1: It also seems like even though workers were kind of

837
00:45:13,196 --> 00:45:16,196
Speaker 1: in some ways having a higher pace at work because

838
00:45:16,196 --> 00:45:18,276
Speaker 1: they're kind of putting more work into the four days,

839
00:45:18,556 --> 00:45:21,876
Speaker 1: they actually enjoyed the busier pace more. And that seems

840
00:45:21,916 --> 00:45:24,316
Speaker 1: like in part because they were empowered during the busier pace,

841
00:45:24,356 --> 00:45:26,316
Speaker 1: but also because they had this lovely reward at the

842
00:45:26,396 --> 00:45:28,476
Speaker 1: end that they could look forward to, and that kind

843
00:45:28,476 --> 00:45:30,756
Speaker 1: of seemed to help a lot in terms of people's

844
00:45:30,756 --> 00:45:32,476
Speaker 1: happiness and sense of engagement too.

845
00:45:32,756 --> 00:45:36,676
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that question of pace sort of differed.

846
00:45:37,076 --> 00:45:40,036
Speaker 2: I mean, if you look at our survey results we

847
00:45:40,116 --> 00:45:43,196
Speaker 2: ask about pace of work and intensity of work, it

848
00:45:43,276 --> 00:45:46,276
Speaker 2: doesn't go up by much. It does go up a

849
00:45:46,316 --> 00:45:49,556
Speaker 2: little bit. And I don't know if it's that people

850
00:45:49,636 --> 00:45:52,356
Speaker 2: just don't like what you're saying, they just don't feel it,

851
00:45:52,356 --> 00:45:56,836
Speaker 2: it doesn't feel too sped up, or it really if

852
00:45:56,916 --> 00:45:59,916
Speaker 2: that work reorganization really did take a lot of stuff

853
00:45:59,916 --> 00:46:00,756
Speaker 2: off their plates.

854
00:46:00,996 --> 00:46:03,756
Speaker 3: But either way. The point is that it's working.

855
00:46:04,316 --> 00:46:06,876
Speaker 1: So that's in the companies that expected the same level

856
00:46:06,876 --> 00:46:10,556
Speaker 1: of productivity across the four days, these one hundred eighty

857
00:46:10,596 --> 00:46:13,476
Speaker 1: one hundred companies. But let's talk about companies that we're

858
00:46:13,636 --> 00:46:17,356
Speaker 1: more on the one hundred eighty eighty right where they

859
00:46:17,476 --> 00:46:19,996
Speaker 1: really got into the four day work week thinking, you know,

860
00:46:20,036 --> 00:46:22,196
Speaker 1: there's not a lot of meetings we can cancel. People

861
00:46:22,236 --> 00:46:24,796
Speaker 1: are at the max pace they can be at. We're

862
00:46:24,796 --> 00:46:27,156
Speaker 1: just going to give them some time off. How did

863
00:46:27,156 --> 00:46:29,436
Speaker 1: the companies react to the time off in this case?

864
00:46:29,676 --> 00:46:31,596
Speaker 1: Did they see any benefits in what were they?

865
00:46:31,756 --> 00:46:35,876
Speaker 2: I think in those cases they're two things. One is

866
00:46:36,756 --> 00:46:42,396
Speaker 2: you see improvements in product quality. So at the restaurant,

867
00:46:42,516 --> 00:46:46,236
Speaker 2: the level of service and the quality of what was

868
00:46:46,276 --> 00:46:49,876
Speaker 2: going on at the restaurants really improved a lot plots,

869
00:46:49,876 --> 00:46:53,516
Speaker 2: of course, not losing people. You do see the same

870
00:46:53,556 --> 00:46:55,716
Speaker 2: thing with the nurses. So these are the two sort

871
00:46:55,716 --> 00:47:00,636
Speaker 2: of purest cases of one hundred eighty eighties where the

872
00:47:00,756 --> 00:47:06,556
Speaker 2: nurses you get improvements and patient outcomes and you get

873
00:47:06,996 --> 00:47:10,196
Speaker 2: people stop quitting. One of the samples that I give

874
00:47:10,236 --> 00:47:12,676
Speaker 2: a lot of space two in the book is an

875
00:47:12,716 --> 00:47:16,316
Speaker 2: advertising team in Canada. It was I think a fifty

876
00:47:16,436 --> 00:47:21,556
Speaker 2: seven person team. During the pandemic, everybody was so stressed out.

877
00:47:21,596 --> 00:47:24,276
Speaker 2: They have very high rates of turnover in this industry,

878
00:47:24,516 --> 00:47:27,556
Speaker 2: maybe about thirty percent on average, is what the leader

879
00:47:27,596 --> 00:47:28,436
Speaker 2: of the team told me.

880
00:47:28,716 --> 00:47:29,556
Speaker 3: Before the pandemic.

881
00:47:29,596 --> 00:47:31,796
Speaker 2: She gave them three hours of time a week to

882
00:47:31,876 --> 00:47:34,876
Speaker 2: just take exercise, and then she figured. She was like,

883
00:47:34,956 --> 00:47:37,316
Speaker 2: oh my god, everybody is so stressed out with the pandemic.

884
00:47:37,356 --> 00:47:39,916
Speaker 2: What can I do to help them? And the obvious

885
00:47:39,956 --> 00:47:42,756
Speaker 2: thing was we just need time. This was at the

886
00:47:42,796 --> 00:47:46,276
Speaker 2: height of the pandemic and it was just really hard

887
00:47:46,276 --> 00:47:48,316
Speaker 2: for people to even get food and they had a

888
00:47:48,356 --> 00:47:51,596
Speaker 2: weight on. In Canada, the lines were really long, social

889
00:47:51,636 --> 00:47:55,916
Speaker 2: distancing in the groceries, and so she gave Friday afternoons off.

890
00:47:56,236 --> 00:47:58,476
Speaker 2: Someone came and said, you know, you already gave given

891
00:47:58,556 --> 00:48:01,676
Speaker 2: us three and then the four it's a four day week,

892
00:48:01,876 --> 00:48:04,756
Speaker 2: and she's like, okay, everybody has a four day week now.

893
00:48:05,076 --> 00:48:09,996
Speaker 2: But they had high turnover and after that nobody left

894
00:48:10,036 --> 00:48:14,436
Speaker 2: the team. What's fascinating about that story is this is

895
00:48:14,476 --> 00:48:19,276
Speaker 2: a very enterprising woman. She realized she could start to

896
00:48:19,436 --> 00:48:24,676
Speaker 2: monetize the team's stability, so she went to her finance

897
00:48:24,756 --> 00:48:26,916
Speaker 2: division say, okay, how much does it cost us to

898
00:48:26,956 --> 00:48:29,516
Speaker 2: lose a person? And it's a lot, and you know,

899
00:48:29,556 --> 00:48:33,556
Speaker 2: it was a big company, millions and millions of dollars.

900
00:48:34,516 --> 00:48:37,396
Speaker 2: And then she started talking to the clients and saying,

901
00:48:37,596 --> 00:48:40,676
Speaker 2: you know, I can promise you team's stability. Nobody is

902
00:48:40,716 --> 00:48:43,756
Speaker 2: going to leave for the course of this contract, and

903
00:48:43,796 --> 00:48:47,276
Speaker 2: if we achieve one percent turnover or something, we get

904
00:48:47,276 --> 00:48:51,556
Speaker 2: a bonus. The clients couldn't believe it because people are

905
00:48:51,596 --> 00:48:58,036
Speaker 2: always leaving and it creates a lot of wasted time hiring, onboarding, training,

906
00:48:58,276 --> 00:49:01,476
Speaker 2: exit interviews, all of that. And this came out in

907
00:49:01,556 --> 00:49:05,756
Speaker 2: another marketing agency, and what both of them experienced was

908
00:49:05,796 --> 00:49:10,476
Speaker 2: the ability to sell more business to exist clients because

909
00:49:10,476 --> 00:49:12,916
Speaker 2: they were providing a better service, so they didn't have

910
00:49:12,996 --> 00:49:15,196
Speaker 2: to be spending as much time just out there trying

911
00:49:15,236 --> 00:49:16,076
Speaker 2: to get new clients.

912
00:49:16,596 --> 00:49:18,676
Speaker 1: Did you think you were going to see this many

913
00:49:18,716 --> 00:49:20,436
Speaker 1: companies who wanted to stick with it when you first

914
00:49:20,436 --> 00:49:21,156
Speaker 1: started the trial.

915
00:49:21,596 --> 00:49:24,756
Speaker 2: We've been surprised at how positive the results are. I

916
00:49:24,756 --> 00:49:26,836
Speaker 2: guess it would be a way of saying that I

917
00:49:26,836 --> 00:49:29,716
Speaker 2: think we were pretty sure we'd get nice employee benefits.

918
00:49:29,876 --> 00:49:32,076
Speaker 3: But what really.

919
00:49:31,796 --> 00:49:36,236
Speaker 2: Surprised me is that if we had better measurements, I

920
00:49:36,316 --> 00:49:40,076
Speaker 2: could have done the one hundred eighty one hundred and

921
00:49:40,156 --> 00:49:40,876
Speaker 2: twenty five.

922
00:49:41,196 --> 00:49:41,516
Speaker 3: Right.

923
00:49:42,116 --> 00:49:46,076
Speaker 2: The companies who report much higher productivity, and there are

924
00:49:46,116 --> 00:49:49,756
Speaker 2: a lot of them, a lot I never expected that.

925
00:49:50,036 --> 00:49:52,716
Speaker 2: I figure the main thing is to just keep up

926
00:49:52,876 --> 00:49:55,476
Speaker 2: where you are, and then you get all these employee benefits,

927
00:49:55,476 --> 00:49:57,316
Speaker 2: so you have to be better off. You're no worse

928
00:49:57,556 --> 00:50:00,356
Speaker 2: on the productivity, and you're better off on this other stuff.

929
00:50:00,636 --> 00:50:03,956
Speaker 3: But it's a real business strategy for many.

930
00:50:03,996 --> 00:50:07,436
Speaker 2: It's actually something that's going to be really help your company,

931
00:50:07,796 --> 00:50:10,516
Speaker 2: as opposed to something you'll just be okay if you

932
00:50:10,596 --> 00:50:10,876
Speaker 2: do it.

933
00:50:11,396 --> 00:50:13,316
Speaker 1: Do you think we're in for a change? You know?

934
00:50:13,396 --> 00:50:15,516
Speaker 1: I guess when we changed the five day work week,

935
00:50:15,556 --> 00:50:18,156
Speaker 1: that was a huge transformation. It felt like no one

936
00:50:18,156 --> 00:50:20,876
Speaker 1: could possibly have us do this. And now a five

937
00:50:20,956 --> 00:50:23,276
Speaker 1: day work week just seems normal. Do you think in

938
00:50:23,916 --> 00:50:26,036
Speaker 1: fifty years or so, the four day work week will

939
00:50:26,076 --> 00:50:26,516
Speaker 1: be the normal?

940
00:50:26,676 --> 00:50:27,156
Speaker 3: Definitely.

941
00:50:27,236 --> 00:50:29,996
Speaker 2: I think we're going to be close to that in

942
00:50:30,196 --> 00:50:34,116
Speaker 2: ten Really, AI is going to make it a lot

943
00:50:34,156 --> 00:50:38,036
Speaker 2: easier to reduce work time, and I think there's momentum

944
00:50:38,116 --> 00:50:41,116
Speaker 2: here right now. We're in a little bit of the

945
00:50:41,156 --> 00:50:43,756
Speaker 2: companies are scared right now because there's a lot of

946
00:50:43,996 --> 00:50:47,796
Speaker 2: political turmoil. They don't know what AI is going to bring,

947
00:50:47,836 --> 00:50:50,276
Speaker 2: they don't know how the tariffs are going to affect

948
00:50:50,276 --> 00:50:53,156
Speaker 2: the economy, and it's just a period of a lot

949
00:50:53,156 --> 00:50:55,396
Speaker 2: of uncertainty. I think it's part of why they're calling

950
00:50:55,396 --> 00:50:57,996
Speaker 2: people back into the workplace, which they haven't actually been

951
00:50:58,036 --> 00:50:58,516
Speaker 2: able to do.

952
00:50:58,636 --> 00:50:59,356
Speaker 3: For the most part.

953
00:50:59,436 --> 00:51:04,036
Speaker 2: Those numbers of remote work are really holding steady. But

954
00:51:04,476 --> 00:51:09,076
Speaker 2: I feel that the pandemic transformed the four day week

955
00:51:09,276 --> 00:51:14,276
Speaker 2: into common sense. And what I hear from some of

956
00:51:14,316 --> 00:51:18,836
Speaker 2: these folks who interact with customers is that when they

957
00:51:18,836 --> 00:51:22,276
Speaker 2: tell their customers about it, instead of the customers freaking

958
00:51:22,316 --> 00:51:25,396
Speaker 2: out that they're not going to be able to contact

959
00:51:25,396 --> 00:51:29,276
Speaker 2: them on the off day, they're sending back messages with

960
00:51:29,436 --> 00:51:33,396
Speaker 2: all caps and tons of exclamation marks, saying, Oh, I'm

961
00:51:33,436 --> 00:51:35,436
Speaker 2: so excited for you, goo, I wish I had that.

962
00:51:35,676 --> 00:51:38,756
Speaker 2: When you talk to people about it, now it seems

963
00:51:39,036 --> 00:51:42,676
Speaker 2: realistic in a way that pre pandemic it seemed like, Oh,

964
00:51:42,676 --> 00:51:44,436
Speaker 2: we could never have that, but I would love it,

965
00:51:44,476 --> 00:51:46,356
Speaker 2: but that's not possible.

966
00:51:45,916 --> 00:51:48,356
Speaker 1: And now it just seems possible. We're just moving towards

967
00:51:48,436 --> 00:51:49,316
Speaker 1: the new era of.

968
00:51:49,516 --> 00:51:51,796
Speaker 3: Work weeks it does seem possible.

969
00:51:51,916 --> 00:51:53,676
Speaker 1: So imagine a lot of people who are hearing about

970
00:51:53,676 --> 00:51:56,476
Speaker 1: the benefits of this, who are themselves employees but might

971
00:51:56,516 --> 00:51:58,996
Speaker 1: not be employees at a place that is amenable to

972
00:51:59,036 --> 00:52:00,876
Speaker 1: a four day work week, are thinking, oh my gosh,

973
00:52:00,876 --> 00:52:03,756
Speaker 1: this sounds amazing. Any advice for them about how to

974
00:52:03,796 --> 00:52:06,076
Speaker 1: make this a reality in their own workplace or things

975
00:52:06,076 --> 00:52:08,276
Speaker 1: that they should be thinking about about how to change

976
00:52:08,516 --> 00:52:09,356
Speaker 1: their pace of work.

977
00:52:09,676 --> 00:52:10,596
Speaker 3: That's a great question.

978
00:52:10,756 --> 00:52:12,556
Speaker 2: I do have some discussion at the end of the

979
00:52:12,556 --> 00:52:15,116
Speaker 2: book about how to do it, but I think there

980
00:52:15,156 --> 00:52:18,236
Speaker 2: are resources online also how to talk to your boss

981
00:52:18,276 --> 00:52:20,596
Speaker 2: about a four day week. But I think the first

982
00:52:20,676 --> 00:52:23,356
Speaker 2: thing to do, like well, of course, read my book,

983
00:52:23,596 --> 00:52:29,036
Speaker 2: but also get educated on now the growing amount of

984
00:52:29,076 --> 00:52:32,196
Speaker 2: evidence about the benefits of a four day week. Start

985
00:52:32,196 --> 00:52:34,916
Speaker 2: a conversation at your workplace, whether it's first with your

986
00:52:34,916 --> 00:52:39,436
Speaker 2: boss or maybe with some co workers. Don't assume that

987
00:52:39,556 --> 00:52:43,396
Speaker 2: it's a non starter. Don't assume that it's impossible where

988
00:52:43,436 --> 00:52:46,756
Speaker 2: you work. Survey data that I talk about in the

989
00:52:46,756 --> 00:52:49,676
Speaker 2: book shows that something like close to a third of

990
00:52:49,876 --> 00:52:54,476
Speaker 2: all senior executives have been saying they're interested in a

991
00:52:54,516 --> 00:52:56,956
Speaker 2: four day week, that it's coming or they're open to it.

992
00:52:57,036 --> 00:53:00,316
Speaker 2: So there's just been a lot of increased openness at

993
00:53:00,396 --> 00:53:04,156
Speaker 2: higher levels of management about it. And I think sort

994
00:53:04,156 --> 00:53:07,236
Speaker 2: of trying to go about it in you know, in

995
00:53:07,316 --> 00:53:11,276
Speaker 2: all kinds of workplaces, is is a lot more viable now,

996
00:53:11,396 --> 00:53:13,156
Speaker 2: trying to start that conversation.

997
00:53:13,836 --> 00:53:14,996
Speaker 3: If you have a boss you.

998
00:53:14,956 --> 00:53:17,956
Speaker 2: Can talk to, you know, who might be willing ask

999
00:53:17,996 --> 00:53:19,756
Speaker 2: them to send me an email and all.

1000
00:53:19,676 --> 00:53:21,836
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, you're gonna you're gonna have rip in box

1001
00:53:21,916 --> 00:53:23,916
Speaker 1: with every every person listening to this.

1002
00:53:24,956 --> 00:53:28,236
Speaker 2: You know, I hear from employers on a regular basis

1003
00:53:28,276 --> 00:53:29,796
Speaker 2: and they say, you know, I'd be happy to come

1004
00:53:29,796 --> 00:53:32,196
Speaker 2: and talk to your team. I think it's it's really

1005
00:53:32,276 --> 00:53:37,076
Speaker 2: viable pretty much everywhere, and there are plenty of other

1006
00:53:37,116 --> 00:53:40,356
Speaker 2: people like me. There's an organization called workfor dot org,

1007
00:53:40,476 --> 00:53:45,676
Speaker 2: which is mostly volunteers working in different communities to bring

1008
00:53:45,876 --> 00:53:48,956
Speaker 2: groups of companies together to talk about it, creating what

1009
00:53:48,956 --> 00:53:52,756
Speaker 2: we call communities of practice. So you could try and

1010
00:53:52,836 --> 00:53:55,036
Speaker 2: do that just lots of way I think get the

1011
00:53:55,076 --> 00:53:58,716
Speaker 2: conversation going. The more people learn about it and think

1012
00:53:58,716 --> 00:54:01,436
Speaker 2: about it, the more open they are to trying it.

1013
00:54:01,636 --> 00:54:04,276
Speaker 1: You talked about all these emotional behavioral benefits of this

1014
00:54:04,316 --> 00:54:06,596
Speaker 1: four day work week. I'm curious if that applies to

1015
00:54:06,596 --> 00:54:09,756
Speaker 1: people who are working remotely too. How much of it

1016
00:54:09,796 --> 00:54:11,796
Speaker 1: is just kind of taking that full day off of work,

1017
00:54:11,796 --> 00:54:13,396
Speaker 1: and how much of it is not having to go

1018
00:54:13,436 --> 00:54:15,436
Speaker 1: to the office, not having to do the commute and

1019
00:54:15,476 --> 00:54:15,796
Speaker 1: so on.

1020
00:54:16,036 --> 00:54:18,796
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. So some people do reference

1021
00:54:18,836 --> 00:54:22,516
Speaker 2: their commutes and so forth. But a quarter of our

1022
00:54:22,556 --> 00:54:26,276
Speaker 2: sample is fully remote. We only have five or six

1023
00:54:26,356 --> 00:54:30,356
Speaker 2: percent who are fully in person, so most are hybrid.

1024
00:54:31,156 --> 00:54:36,196
Speaker 2: There's no difference in anything across these modalities in terms

1025
00:54:36,196 --> 00:54:40,236
Speaker 2: of these findings. So yeah, it works for all those modalities.

1026
00:54:40,716 --> 00:54:45,276
Speaker 2: Here's another surprising thing. It also works across all the

1027
00:54:45,356 --> 00:54:48,796
Speaker 2: sort of socio demographic categories that we look at, whether

1028
00:54:48,836 --> 00:54:55,476
Speaker 2: we're talking age, gender, race and ethnicity, parental status, disability status,

1029
00:54:55,836 --> 00:55:01,436
Speaker 2: great improvements for people with disabilities, managers, non managers, education levels,

1030
00:55:01,556 --> 00:55:06,076
Speaker 2: et cetera. I mean, very very similar well being impacts

1031
00:55:06,076 --> 00:55:09,476
Speaker 2: across all those groups. So it really is, you know,

1032
00:55:09,796 --> 00:55:13,756
Speaker 2: four for all. I think it really works for everyone.

1033
00:55:14,636 --> 00:55:17,116
Speaker 1: Well that's a pretty ringing endorsement to end on the

1034
00:55:17,196 --> 00:55:20,836
Speaker 1: four day week works for everyone. If Juliette's research has

1035
00:55:20,876 --> 00:55:23,356
Speaker 1: got you thinking about how transformative an extra day off

1036
00:55:23,396 --> 00:55:25,556
Speaker 1: each week could be for you, then you should check

1037
00:55:25,556 --> 00:55:28,076
Speaker 1: out her new book, Four Days a Week, The Life

1038
00:55:28,116 --> 00:55:31,996
Speaker 1: Changing Solution for Reducing Employee Stress, improving well being, and

1039
00:55:32,036 --> 00:55:35,876
Speaker 1: working Smarter. Juliette's book is packed with insights and it

1040
00:55:35,996 --> 00:55:38,716
Speaker 1: just might be the perfect gift to give your boss.

1041
00:55:39,236 --> 00:55:41,756
Speaker 1: Next time on the Happiness Lab, we'll hear about another

1042
00:55:41,836 --> 00:55:44,436
Speaker 1: of my favorite books of twenty twenty five. It's from

1043
00:55:44,476 --> 00:55:47,076
Speaker 1: an expert on decision making who has some important advice

1044
00:55:47,156 --> 00:55:49,996
Speaker 1: on how to make choices that more closely match our values.

1045
00:55:50,276 --> 00:55:52,796
Speaker 1: All that next time on the Happiness Lab with me

1046
00:55:53,036 --> 00:55:58,756
Speaker 1: Doctor Laurie Santos