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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: How dare she conduct herself as a modern woman of

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Speaker 2: the nineteen twenties?

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Speaker 3: How dare she step out on her husband?

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Speaker 2: How dare she do things that were previously just the

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Speaker 2: business of men.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical

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Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked on Exactly Right. I've

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Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've

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Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home

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Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've

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Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories, and now we

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Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have

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Speaker 1: never been published. Tenfold More Wicked presents Wicked Words is

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Speaker 1: about the choices that writers make, good and bad. It's

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Speaker 1: a deep dive into the stories behind the stories. Abbott

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Speaker 1: Kaylor is an author who wrote a book called The

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Speaker 1: Ghosts of Eden Park. It's this fantastic mystery set during

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Speaker 1: Prohibition and it's about a bootlegger and his wife and

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Speaker 1: they're millions of dollars and their terrible marriage, it says

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Speaker 1: Karen Abbot on this particular book. But how should I

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Speaker 1: introduce you?

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Speaker 2: So on the book it's Karen Abbot, which is now

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Speaker 2: a pen name for Abbot Taylor.

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Speaker 1: So tell me briefly how this evolution happened, because you've

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Speaker 1: been writing for a really long time.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 2: So it was back in twenty thirteen I got an

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Speaker 2: email from a reader who said, do you know that

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Speaker 2: if you google yourself, it says that you died in

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Speaker 2: twenty ten? And when this is one reason I do

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Speaker 2: not google myself. I do not want to know surnough.

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Speaker 2: I googled myself. There was my picture, there was my

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Speaker 2: alma mater, and it says I died in twenty ten.

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Speaker 2: I was turning forty, so I was in a little

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Speaker 2: bit of a midlife crisis, and I was like, you

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Speaker 2: know what, I am just going to change my name.

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Speaker 3: You know, all of my old friends.

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Speaker 2: Always called me Abbot back in college in high school,

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Speaker 2: and so it was kind of a natural thing for

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Speaker 2: me to just do that and then take my husband's

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Speaker 2: last name, which is Kaylor.

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Speaker 1: It's so good to have options. It's nice just to

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Speaker 1: remake yourself.

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Speaker 2: Like that exactly if I go into witness protection, it

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Speaker 2: would serve me.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's start from the beginning, and there seem to

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Speaker 1: be very few in the main players, very few good people.

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Speaker 1: And all I mean the heroes are law enforcement and

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Speaker 1: the attorneys.

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Speaker 3: The big hero of the book is Jaggar Hoover.

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Speaker 2: He was the one really solid, virtuous guy.

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Speaker 3: Which is really saying something.

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Speaker 1: It is this, this sleazy story.

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Speaker 2: I always look for a story first. Can this story

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Speaker 2: be told in a novelistic way? Does that have a beginning, middle,

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Speaker 2: and end? Our stakes rising? Are there twists and turns?

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Speaker 2: Can I tell this as if it were a piece

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Speaker 2: of really good fiction. So that's number one, And then

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Speaker 2: number two, you have to have the primary source materials

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Speaker 2: to back up that kind of story. There's got to

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Speaker 2: be some memoirs in there, there's got to be tons

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Speaker 2: of new paper coverage, contemporary interviews with the players. In

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Speaker 2: this case, I had a incredible trial transcript, which I'm

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Speaker 2: sure we'll talk talk about later that really gave me

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Speaker 2: amount of detail unprecedented for any previous book I've ever written.

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Speaker 3: But then, of course, when you go to sell.

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Speaker 2: It to an agent or a publisher, I want to

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Speaker 2: persuade my agent who wants to persuade my publisher. You say,

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Speaker 2: you know, this is a story that embodies in the

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Speaker 2: nineteen twenties pretty much like no other story has. In

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Speaker 2: the nineteen twenties was such an important decade because it

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Speaker 2: was really America's coming of age.

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Speaker 3: It was America becoming.

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Speaker 2: A modern country, coming out of World War One, really

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Speaker 2: experiencing some changing maris, very quickly changing Morris. Women were

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Speaker 2: empowering themselves, getting the vote. And this story I don't

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Speaker 2: think could have happened, and George Remis as a character

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Speaker 2: could not.

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Speaker 3: Have happened in any other decade.

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Speaker 2: And to me, it really just was the embodiment of

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Speaker 2: that decade, and they were sold on that.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's start from the beginning of this decade. So

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Speaker 1: where are we in time when we drop in on

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Speaker 1: George Remis.

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Speaker 2: I actually wanted to start the book and set it

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Speaker 2: up as a nonfiction who'd done it? There is a

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Speaker 2: gun that goes off in the very first scene, and

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Speaker 2: you don't find out until much much later who shot

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Speaker 2: the gun and who received the bullet from that gun.

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Speaker 2: And so then I backtrack and talk about George Remis,

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Speaker 2: who also was really the embodiment of the American dream,

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Speaker 2: the dark side of the American dream. Here is an

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Speaker 2: incredibly brilliant person who was born in Germany and who

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Speaker 2: arrived in the United States, never became a citizen, very

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Speaker 2: poor growing up, suffered at the hands of an abusive

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Speaker 2: father who was a drunk, very difficult childhood, had to

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Speaker 2: drop out of school to in order to support his family,

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Speaker 2: was able to get a job at an uncle's pharmacy,

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Speaker 2: learned the pharmacy business, studied law at night, became a lawyer,

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Speaker 2: and then just quite brilliantly, once prohibition was passed, decided

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Speaker 2: that he was going to combine his talents and knowledge

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Speaker 2: of both the pharmaceutical industry and the legal industry to

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Speaker 2: find a loophole, which of course he did. And the

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Speaker 2: loophole being that you could manufacturer, sell, distribute alcohol for

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Speaker 2: quote unquote medicinal purposes, which no one was really doing.

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Speaker 3: It was just a great loophole for bootleggers to exploit.

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Speaker 2: And George Remis, well before Campone or any of the

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Speaker 2: other big bootleggers that people speak about today, did this

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Speaker 2: the best.

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Speaker 3: He did it first, and he did it the best.

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Speaker 1: Where are we is this Cincinnati or Chicago, and tell

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Speaker 1: me the year.

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Speaker 2: Well, he starts off in Chicago. He grew up in Chicago.

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Speaker 2: He was a very popular defense attorney in Chicago. He

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Speaker 2: was called the weeping crying Remis because he would go

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Speaker 2: around and leap and cry and tear out his hair

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Speaker 2: and attack a posing council.

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Speaker 3: So that's in Chicago, and this is in the late teens.

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Speaker 2: As soon as Probus passed in nineteen twenty, he became

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Speaker 2: aware of a new type of client. These men, who

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Speaker 2: he said they had no brains at all, were making

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Speaker 2: money hand over fists. They were paying these fines easily,

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Speaker 2: and he decided he could do their illegal activity much

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Speaker 2: better than they themselves were conducting it. And so about

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Speaker 2: nineteen twenty, nineteen twenty one, he moved to Cincinnati and

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Speaker 2: began his business as a bootlighter.

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Speaker 1: Why did he flip the switch? Why did he go

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Speaker 1: from legal to illegal?

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Speaker 2: Remus was always a borderline personality, I'm sure. I think

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Speaker 2: the potential for criminal activity and series criminal activity was

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Speaker 2: always present in his psyche, and he just saw the

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Speaker 2: opportunity to do it. I will say this, you know,

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Speaker 2: I think one of the reasons that he's not as

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Speaker 2: famous as say Al Capone was that Remus considered himself

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Speaker 2: to be a gentleman bootle He was somebody who wanted

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Speaker 2: to conduct his business with decorum as much as was

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Speaker 2: possible for him. He aspired to be a respected member

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Speaker 2: of high society. I don't think Capone ever had those aspirations.

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Speaker 2: And if Remus was going to be violent, it certainly

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Speaker 2: wasn't going to be out in the open with shooting

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Speaker 2: a bunch of men up against a wall, as Copone did,

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Speaker 2: or public executions. I think that Remus, while conducting major

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Speaker 2: criminal activity, still had a strange code of ethics that

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Speaker 2: he tried to adhere to to the best of his ability.

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Speaker 1: Remus is the gentleman bootlegger. He is making tons of money,

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Speaker 1: but he also has a personal life. So tell me

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Speaker 1: about the personal life. Maybe starting in Cincinnati.

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Speaker 2: He had a daughter with his first wife. He was

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Speaker 2: not a very good husband. I actually looked up their divorce.

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Speaker 2: One of the problems she mentioned on their filing was

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Speaker 2: that he quote had a habit of coming home.

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Speaker 3: Early in the morning flight. That was one of the

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Speaker 3: things that you could cite in.

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Speaker 2: The nineteen twenties divorce application. But anyway, he divorces her.

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Speaker 2: He meets the actually the dust girl or the cleaning

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Speaker 2: person in his office in Chicago and in his law office,

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Speaker 2: which turns out to be the woman who becomes his

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Speaker 2: second wife. Her name was Imogen Holmes. He sort of

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Speaker 2: was impressed and taken with her right away. He not

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Speaker 2: only was impressed with her beauty, he thought she was

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Speaker 2: a beautiful woman, but also with her intellect.

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Speaker 3: Her business savvy. She was very street smart.

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Speaker 2: He called her his prime minister and sort of sought

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Speaker 2: her advice on some of his business dealings. Imaging also

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Speaker 2: had aspirations. She wanted to climb socially. She was very

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Speaker 2: interested in Remas's money, and she called him daddy, which

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Speaker 2: almost seems like something from a pulp novel at the time,

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Speaker 2: but yes, it is true she called him daddy.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So what do we know about her and her background,

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Speaker 1: because she's such a sensual character in the story.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she was also married, and in fact they met,

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Speaker 2: you know, she was cleaning his office and they began talking,

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Speaker 2: and they began commiserating about their mutually miserable marriages. You know,

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Speaker 2: Remus was his wife was upset with him, and her

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Speaker 2: husband also was a flander, never home, didn't pay child

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Speaker 2: support for her daughter, basically spent any money they had

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Speaker 2: on women who were not her, so Remas decided to

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Speaker 2: represent her in her divorce.

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Speaker 1: So what do you think the difference was between his

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Speaker 1: marriage with his first wife and his marriage with Emma

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Speaker 1: Jean is at the intelligence and peer to peer feeling

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Speaker 1: that he had with Immajeen versus his other wife. What

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Speaker 1: do you think the difference was his.

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Speaker 2: First way he met before he was financially successful. Once

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Speaker 2: he met Immageen. There's a quote where he said she

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Speaker 2: was a flashy dresser, and I think he really liked

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Speaker 2: the way she knew how to mingle. She was impressive.

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Speaker 2: I think she probably had a charisma. In the book,

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Speaker 2: I mentioned a couple parties they throw where the guests

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Speaker 2: make comments about the way she looks her sort of

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Speaker 2: her cat like features and her cat like expression. She

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Speaker 2: seems sort of slinky and mysterious and sort of seemed

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Speaker 2: like the kind of person who expected people to be

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Speaker 2: impressed with her.

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Speaker 3: And I think that's herd of attitude goes a long way.

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Speaker 2: You know, she also was from a very humble beginning,

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Speaker 2: but she she was determined to make her mark in

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Speaker 2: the world, and once she became Missus George Remas, she

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Speaker 2: really saw that as her chance.

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Speaker 1: You know, the press in the nineteen twenties. I have

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Speaker 1: a book set in the nineteen twenties also, and the

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Speaker 1: press in the nineteen twenties was just an expert on

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Speaker 1: sexualizing women. And I mean that is yes, it was unbelievable.

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Speaker 1: So I'm really going to be interested in how they

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Speaker 1: frame immagen later on. Did you get a sense for

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Speaker 1: what kind of I guess stepmother she would have been

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Speaker 1: to Remus's daughter from his first marriage.

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Speaker 2: Oh, she was horrible to Reema's daughter from his first marriage.

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Speaker 2: Immageen did not like anyone else who required any of

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Speaker 2: Remas's money. She wanted all of Remis's money for herself.

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Speaker 2: Anytime he bought a gift for his first daughter. She's

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Speaker 2: protested about this. She wanted all the money to go

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Speaker 2: to her daughter, her daughter, Ruth, whom Remis actually officially adopted.

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Speaker 2: And she even resented Remus's mother because he still supported

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Speaker 2: his mom and was really just sort of very interested

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Speaker 2: in material things. There's several little anecdotes in the book

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Speaker 2: about how she goes shopping and doesn't even look at

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Speaker 2: the Price Tech.

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Speaker 1: Things are okay. He seems to be relatively happy in

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Speaker 1: this relationship, right, and he has his daughter there and

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Speaker 1: his adopted daughter. And I'm assuming as what would happen

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Speaker 1: during Prohibition if you're part of an organized crime. His

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Speaker 1: business is growing and he's making more and more money.

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Speaker 1: What's the next benchmark of things that happened to George

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Speaker 1: Rema in his life?

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Speaker 2: Well, I'd love to talk about the way that he

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Speaker 2: enjoyed his money first, I should talk about it. He

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Speaker 2: became a folk hero in Cincinnati. You can imagine that.

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Speaker 3: A large number of jobs were lost with Prohibition.

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Speaker 2: Brewers of course, bartenders, people at saloons, people at restaurants,

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Speaker 2: bottle makers, truck drivers, anyone who was even tangentially involved

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Speaker 2: in the process of bottling and selling or distributing alcohol was.

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Speaker 3: Out of a job.

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Speaker 2: Henry miss shows up and suddenly provides the city with

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Speaker 2: about thirty five hundred jobs and also providing them with

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Speaker 2: liquor to spend that money on me. So it was

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Speaker 2: a win win for him. He was a very very

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Speaker 2: popular character in Cincinnati. He had this lavish mansion in

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Speaker 2: a very pricey neighborhood in Price Hill, it's called in Cincinnati,

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Speaker 2: the most prestigious neighborhood.

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Speaker 3: He had a pool.

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Speaker 2: He would let the neighborhood kids come and swim in

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Speaker 2: his pool. He wanted it had a field where they

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Speaker 2: could come and play baseball. He threw this party, and

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Speaker 2: he not only invited Cincinnati luminaries, very important families like

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Speaker 2: the Tafts, William Howard Taft and the whole pat family

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Speaker 2: was prominent Cincinnati, but just prominent people around the country.

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Speaker 2: And if I could just spend a moment talking about

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Speaker 2: the party favors and sort of the extent he went

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Speaker 2: to to really try to impress these people. You know,

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Speaker 2: he gave a brand new nineteen twenty two car to

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Speaker 2: every woman at the party.

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Speaker 3: You know, you know, decades before Oprah Winfrey.

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Speaker 2: You know, you get a car, wow, a diamond stickpin

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Speaker 2: to every man, and engraves watch every man. Every single

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Speaker 2: person had one thousand dollar bill tucked beneath their plate,

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Speaker 2: which is sort of the equivalent of you and I

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Speaker 2: looking under our chairs right now and finding fourteen thousand dollars.

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Speaker 3: Wow. He lit guests, Thegars with one hundred dollars bill.

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Speaker 1: Oh gosh, this is very William Tweed Boss Tweed.

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Speaker 2: Oh yes, And of course Jay Gatsby, you know, and

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Speaker 2: Remis is said to be one of the inspirations for

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Speaker 2: Ja Gatsby. There's all these apocofal stories that f Scott

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Speaker 2: Fitzgerald and George Ramas met when Fitzgerald was stationed in Louisville.

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Speaker 2: But there's no proof, hard proof that they ever met.

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Speaker 2: But I think that it's very true that the Gatsby

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Speaker 2: similarities with Remis are pretty conspicuous.

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Speaker 1: How do these guys, how are they so arrogant that

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Speaker 1: they can expect that the government is is obviously going

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Speaker 1: to see all of this happening and not start focusing

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Speaker 1: in on them. Did he just not care or did

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Speaker 1: he think he was above it? Oh?

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Speaker 3: He just bribed them all, of course. You know.

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Speaker 2: Of course he had a man in the Harding administration

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Speaker 2: who was his liaison, who was going to provide him

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Speaker 2: with legitimate government certificates to get the whiskey out of

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Speaker 2: the warehouses, and who also promised legal protection. You know,

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Speaker 2: if George George Reamas would not get arrested, If George

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Speaker 2: Rereamas were arrested, George Reamas would not.

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Speaker 3: Go to jail. If he went to jail, he would

283
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Speaker 3: be acquitted at his trial.

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Speaker 2: If he were convicted at his trial, he wouldn't spend

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Speaker 2: any time in jail.

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Speaker 3: If you went in jail, he would get out.

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Speaker 2: Wow, you know this whole system, And of course it

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Speaker 2: doesn't quite end up that way for George Remas, but

289
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Speaker 2: he was very confident that his system of bribing officials

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Speaker 2: was going to go a long way, because, of course

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Speaker 2: many of the officials also were openly disdainful of prohibition.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so lavish parties, marriage children. George Remas has it all.

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Speaker 1: When does he start to see signs of weaknesses? So

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Speaker 1: what year is this and what's the situation.

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Speaker 2: The mistake he made was trusting that his underlings were

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Speaker 2: as meticulous as he was. Remas did not make mistakes.

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Speaker 2: Actually he made a fatal mistake. He made a mistake

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Speaker 2: and trusting one of his underlings to say that that

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Speaker 2: Death Valley was clear that there was no alcohol in

300
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Speaker 2: the premises.

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Speaker 1: So Death Valley was one of Remus's fortified distilleries in Cincinnati.

302
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Speaker 2: They would get rid of the alcohol during certain times,

303
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Speaker 2: and they knew when alcohol was there, they knew an

304
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Speaker 2: alcohol was not there. And if they knew that there

305
00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:24,680
Speaker 2: might be a raid coming, or if police were going

306
00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:26,280
Speaker 2: to come or detectives were going to come and check

307
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Speaker 2: the premises. They made sure it was a time when

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Speaker 2: they knew no alcohol was going to be there. One

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Speaker 2: of his underlings reported it was all clear and Remas

310
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Speaker 2: was fine, even though we had had a tip that

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Speaker 2: there was probition agents in town.

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Speaker 3: So of course the prohibition agents come.

313
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Speaker 2: To Death Valley, they do a sweep, and what do

314
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Speaker 2: they find but a bunch of alcohol, and George Remas's

315
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Speaker 2: is implicated, and that's where his troubles really start happening.

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Speaker 2: And I would like to just say that the person

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Speaker 2: who was in charge of this early raid, who actually

318
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Speaker 2: began the domino falling of bad things against George Remas,

319
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Speaker 2: was a man named Franklin Dodge, who goes on to

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Speaker 2: becoming even bigger nemesis for Remis as time goes on.

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Speaker 1: So what happens with Remiss he arrested is this whole

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Speaker 1: Remis gets out of anything that happens to him planned

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Speaker 1: kick in.

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Speaker 3: Well, it does.

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Speaker 2: He is assured by his government sources and his government

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Speaker 2: friends that it was not going to be a big deal,

327
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Speaker 2: that he was going to be able to avoid jail.

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Speaker 2: He goes to trial, and to Reemas's great surprise, he

329
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Speaker 2: is convicted at trial, and he's sentenced to jail in

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Speaker 2: Atlanta federal penitential for several prohibition violations, and Remis is

331
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Speaker 2: just out of his mind. I've been paying you upwards

332
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Speaker 2: of a million dollars in bribes, not adjusted for inflation.

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Speaker 2: It's a lot of money back in nineteen twenty one,

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Speaker 2: and look where it got him. You know, he's in trouble.

335
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Speaker 2: So Remus is counting on a man named Jess Smith.

336
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Speaker 2: Jess Smith was his liaison in the federal government. He's

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Speaker 2: the one who had been providing Remis with whiskey certificates

338
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Speaker 2: to get alcohol out of the warehouses. He has been

339
00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,080
Speaker 2: the one that's been promising Remis legal protections. But you know,

340
00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,240
Speaker 2: just as Remus his trial went through, just as Remus

341
00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:55,400
Speaker 2: was convicted, and looking to Jes Smith for help to

342
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Speaker 2: sort of mitigate the aftermath of the trial and make

343
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Speaker 2: sure he did not go to prison, meize by suicide.

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Speaker 1: Do we know what happened? Was it connected to a

345
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Speaker 1: different case?

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Speaker 3: You know, there's a lot of speculation, of course, yes.

347
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Speaker 2: As in many things in this book and in George

348
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Speaker 2: Reamas's life. There's speculation, there's various theories. One of them

349
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Speaker 2: is that he actually was murdered and it was set

350
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Speaker 2: up to look like a suicide.

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Speaker 1: So, for lack of a better phrase, it sounds like

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Speaker 1: George Remas is pretty screwed right now, yes, because his

353
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Speaker 1: one good source is now gone. So he's in jail

354
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Speaker 1: and he's upset and mad, I'm assuming or he's been convicted,

355
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Speaker 1: so he's in prison.

356
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Speaker 2: Atlanta Federal Penitentiary, which i was actually a very fascinating

357
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Speaker 2: place at this time in its own right. It was

358
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Speaker 2: the home to various very prominent and wealthy bootleggers. They

359
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Speaker 2: actually had a section of the jail devoted just to

360
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Speaker 2: these bootleggers. It was called Millionaire's Row. They each had

361
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Speaker 2: their own suites, you know, they could have their own cooks,

362
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Speaker 2: their own cleaning person. They had organized dinners with fresh

363
00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,400
Speaker 2: flowers in their own cooks and fresh table linens and

364
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Speaker 2: beautiful settings. And Remus was sort of the king of

365
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Speaker 2: Millionaire's Row. Meanwhile, Remus was miserable because Remis is a

366
00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,200
Speaker 2: control freak, and of course, if you're in prison, you

367
00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:07,680
Speaker 2: really cannot control what's going on in the outside, least

368
00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:10,600
Speaker 2: of all his wife, Imma Jean, who by this time

369
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Speaker 2: was busy looking for her next mark.

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Speaker 1: Well, so what's the problem with Emma Jean? Does she

371
00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:18,720
Speaker 1: have access to all of the millions that he's collected

372
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Speaker 1: over the years, because this is his wife.

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Speaker 2: Actually, yes, right before he went to prison, he made,

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Speaker 2: I guess later retrospect, a very grave error of putting

375
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Speaker 2: all of his various accounts in the home and everything

376
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Speaker 2: under her name. Oh boy, yeah, because he was worried

377
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Speaker 2: that the government was going to seize all of his

378
00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,160
Speaker 2: assets and if he switched them to Imageen it would

379
00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:40,320
Speaker 2: be a harder battle.

380
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Speaker 3: I supposed to do that.

381
00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:44,600
Speaker 2: Meanwhile, Imageen had really started to tire of her life

382
00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,640
Speaker 2: with George Remis and had become enamored with a new man,

383
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Speaker 2: a man who happened to have had a very prominent

384
00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,640
Speaker 2: hand in Remas's downfall, the very probition agent who had

385
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Speaker 2: sent him to jail.

386
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Speaker 1: And this is Franklin Dodge.

387
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Speaker 3: This is Franklin Dodge.

388
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Speaker 1: Yes, So we have an Assistant Attorney General for the

389
00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:05,480
Speaker 1: United States who is now alerted to George Remas's illegal activities.

390
00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:07,280
Speaker 3: You know, here's me able to Walker Will Brant.

391
00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:09,560
Speaker 2: She was thirty two years old, was five years out

392
00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,119
Speaker 2: of law school, had never prosecuted a single case in

393
00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,679
Speaker 2: her career. She was actually working as a public defender

394
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:18,439
Speaker 2: in California. She only represented female clients. She was a

395
00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:21,960
Speaker 2: true pioneer, an advocate for women's rights, and was tapped

396
00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:25,040
Speaker 2: by Lauren Harding to be the Assistant Attorney.

397
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Speaker 3: General of the United States.

398
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Speaker 2: And you have to wonder why this group of men

399
00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:30,919
Speaker 2: decided that she was going to be their pick. You know,

400
00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,600
Speaker 2: I'm sure they had a conference and that the thinking

401
00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:35,920
Speaker 2: was along the lines of let's put the little lady

402
00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:38,560
Speaker 2: in charge. She's in experience, she's young, she's not going

403
00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:40,600
Speaker 2: to know what she's doing. Let's put her in this role,

404
00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:43,520
Speaker 2: and she's going to just be overwhelmed, and of course

405
00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:45,400
Speaker 2: we will walk awill and brand gets into this role

406
00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,080
Speaker 2: and just begins kicking ass. She surprises them all. She

407
00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,640
Speaker 2: takes her role very seriously. One of the first things

408
00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,240
Speaker 2: that she does is decide to go after George Remas

409
00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:56,000
Speaker 2: in his bootlegging empire. And one of the other remarkable

410
00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:58,720
Speaker 2: things about her she was almost entirely deaf, and she

411
00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:01,600
Speaker 2: spent every morning trying to conceal her earing aids with

412
00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:05,639
Speaker 2: her hairstyle, and she wrote these really beautiful, heartbreaking letters

413
00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:08,320
Speaker 2: to her parents talking about they think I'm impressive now,

414
00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:10,480
Speaker 2: they think I'm good. Now if only I could hear

415
00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:12,680
Speaker 2: oh wow, what kind of work could I be doing?

416
00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:12,960
Speaker 4: Men?

417
00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:15,520
Speaker 1: So she's really the one who kind of kicked all

418
00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:19,320
Speaker 1: this stuff off and connected Franklin Dodge with Imma Jean

419
00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:21,600
Speaker 1: and George Remas. Is that right?

420
00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:24,359
Speaker 3: She becomes aware of Franklin Dodge. She was somebody who

421
00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:25,320
Speaker 3: had a government job.

422
00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:27,880
Speaker 2: I'm sure his father, who was a very prominent politician

423
00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,240
Speaker 2: in Michigan, got him a job in the federal government.

424
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Speaker 3: But she saw something in him. She thought he was smart,

425
00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:33,320
Speaker 3: She thought he was daring.

426
00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:35,680
Speaker 2: He was willing to go undercover to try to get

427
00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:36,959
Speaker 2: some information on bootleggers.

428
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,240
Speaker 3: He was involved in a big case in Savannah. She

429
00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:40,320
Speaker 3: was impressed with that work.

430
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,119
Speaker 2: She actually called him her acet detectives and decided that

431
00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,080
Speaker 2: he should be the one to organize the investigation into

432
00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:48,919
Speaker 2: George Remas' empire. So it is fair to say that

433
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,879
Speaker 2: Mabel Walker will and Brandt really started this entire miss.

434
00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:55,120
Speaker 1: So now the man who went after him is now

435
00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:58,440
Speaker 1: courting his wife talk about unethical.

436
00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,480
Speaker 2: Yes, the man who went after Remus and who gathered

437
00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:04,520
Speaker 2: the evidence that was used against him atrial that eventually

438
00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:07,320
Speaker 2: sent him to prison, is now courting George Reamas's wife.

439
00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,959
Speaker 2: So Remus is starting to hear about their you know,

440
00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:15,320
Speaker 2: being seen in public together and questionable embraces, various settings

441
00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:16,840
Speaker 2: where it would not be appropriate for.

442
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:19,639
Speaker 3: Them to be together. I should say he is going nuts,

443
00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:20,560
Speaker 3: He's going insane.

444
00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,760
Speaker 1: Okay, so he's on millionaire's row. Is there a chance

445
00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,600
Speaker 1: he can get out on some kind of technicality? Does

446
00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:29,480
Speaker 1: he have a good defense team working on the case.

447
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:31,760
Speaker 2: Well, this is one of my favorite twists in the

448
00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:34,359
Speaker 2: whole book was that you know, Imagen came to visit

449
00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,560
Speaker 2: George Remas in prison, and this is HALLIMG meets Franklin Dodge.

450
00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:41,320
Speaker 2: Imaging comes to visit George Ramaiz in Atlanta, and he says, look,

451
00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,960
Speaker 2: there is a prohibition Asian here who is investigating corruption

452
00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:45,679
Speaker 2: at this prison.

453
00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:47,200
Speaker 3: His name is Franklin Dodge.

454
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:50,159
Speaker 2: I know his background, but I've heard that he is

455
00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:52,760
Speaker 2: amenable to bribes, He's amenable to quid pro quo.

456
00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:55,159
Speaker 3: With the right offer, he.

457
00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:57,960
Speaker 2: Might actually agree to help me out of the situation.

458
00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,160
Speaker 2: He says, I want you to go cultivate Franklin Dodge.

459
00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,439
Speaker 2: So Imagen of course goes to cultivate Franklin Dodge, but

460
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:05,400
Speaker 2: not quite in.

461
00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:07,000
Speaker 3: The way that George Reamis had hoped.

462
00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,000
Speaker 1: Mm hm, in a naughty way. And I'm sure George

463
00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,159
Speaker 1: Remis went through the roof when he heard this.

464
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:16,240
Speaker 2: Yes, George Remis started sending her really unhinged letters.

465
00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,040
Speaker 3: In fact, George Rumas had such a kind of a.

466
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:22,560
Speaker 2: Brilliant and funny and eccentric and bizarre way with words,

467
00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:24,800
Speaker 2: and some of the letters he said to Imaging from

468
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,159
Speaker 2: prison really are our window into his deteriorating mental condition

469
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,040
Speaker 2: at this time, and are some of my favorite passages

470
00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:31,480
Speaker 2: in the book.

471
00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:34,160
Speaker 1: Do you think that she is worried? I mean, does

472
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,720
Speaker 1: she not just give a fig about any of this?

473
00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:39,520
Speaker 1: At this point, her husband's in jail, she has all

474
00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:43,439
Speaker 1: his money, and she's got this attractive prohibition agent on

475
00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,360
Speaker 1: her side. Right now, life seems pretty good for Immagen.

476
00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:49,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think Imagine is actually enjoying herself at this point.

477
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,520
Speaker 2: At some point things must have turned very dark between

478
00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,280
Speaker 2: her and Remus. There was an estrangement which he never

479
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:57,520
Speaker 2: speaks about. Of course, he acts like he's still very

480
00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:00,040
Speaker 2: much in love with her, but she figures, hey, I

481
00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:02,800
Speaker 2: have this prohibition agent. He's from a wealthy family, He's

482
00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,040
Speaker 2: from a prominent family. These are things that Remas never

483
00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:07,159
Speaker 2: offered her. While he had money, he never had the

484
00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:09,480
Speaker 2: prestige or any kind of pedigree that she would have

485
00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:12,080
Speaker 2: been proud of in public. And Dodge had all these things,

486
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:14,800
Speaker 2: and now she also was in charge of Remas's money.

487
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:17,639
Speaker 2: She really must have been feeling the power then and figured,

488
00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:18,320
Speaker 2: you know, she might.

489
00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:19,399
Speaker 3: As well just do what she wants.

490
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,040
Speaker 2: And what she wanted at that moment was to go

491
00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:25,080
Speaker 2: off with Franklin Dodge and ruin her husband in the process.

492
00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,639
Speaker 1: George Remis is still in jail, and Emma Jean and

493
00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:47,480
Speaker 1: Franklin Dodge are running all over town, not hiding anything.

494
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,120
Speaker 1: Were there tabloid magazines at the time.

495
00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,240
Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely, there were sightings about Franklin Dodge and Imaging

496
00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:56,200
Speaker 2: being seen together. And in fact, one of Remas's bootlegger

497
00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:58,359
Speaker 2: friends in Atlanta pulled him aside at one of their

498
00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:00,560
Speaker 2: fancy dinners and says, look, you're not going to like this,

499
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:04,040
Speaker 2: but I'm hearing things. I'm hearing things about Franklin Dodge

500
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,720
Speaker 2: and imaging that I really felt compelled to tell you,

501
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,240
Speaker 2: and Remiss in first is in denial and reacts very

502
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,480
Speaker 2: strongly and actually hits the guy, hits his fellow bootlegger

503
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,000
Speaker 2: men apologizes and starts realizing this terrible thing might actually

504
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:17,840
Speaker 2: be happening to him.

505
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,560
Speaker 1: And this is when Remiss is in prison. Still is

506
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:21,520
Speaker 1: that right or jail or.

507
00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,159
Speaker 2: Yes, he's still in jail, so he's kind of powerless,

508
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 2: powerless at this point to do anything about it. Every

509
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,520
Speaker 2: time he asks, Imagen, you know what's going on? Is

510
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:31,280
Speaker 2: anything untoward going on between.

511
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,520
Speaker 3: You and Dodge? He says, don't worry, Daddy, mister Dodge

512
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:38,920
Speaker 3: is our friend. Yeah, that's a direct question.

513
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to know how Franklin Dodge is getting

514
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,760
Speaker 1: away with any of this. He's having an affair with

515
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 1: the wife of a convicted bootlegger gangster. How is the

516
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 1: federal government okay with this? Are they not reprimanding him?

517
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,360
Speaker 2: Jayander Hoover who had been appointed the director of the

518
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:00,679
Speaker 2: of the Bureau of Investigation of the time. This was

519
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,119
Speaker 2: a precursor to the FBI. They didn't add the federal

520
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,520
Speaker 2: until later, but he's in charge of Bureau of Investigation

521
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 2: and jagg Ar. Hoover, of course, has many horrible chabbers

522
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,600
Speaker 2: in his career, but at this time, in this place,

523
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 2: he was very serious about having an honest force of

524
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,879
Speaker 2: prohibition agents. He did not want anybody taking bribes, he

525
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,440
Speaker 2: didn't want anybody doing anything.

526
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,960
Speaker 3: Illegal, covarding with bootleggers. And he actually.

527
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:24,920
Speaker 2: Sends one of his own men to go follow Franklin

528
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,200
Speaker 2: Dodge and Immagen Remus, so sort of a spy versus

529
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,719
Speaker 2: by situation where one of Hoover's guys starts trailing a

530
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 2: prohibition agent Franklin Dodge around the country. There's actually a

531
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:39,680
Speaker 2: scene where Hoover's guy catches Franklin Dodge with his pants down,

532
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 2: literally with his pants down, which is about the I

533
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:45,720
Speaker 2: think the only time in a nonfiction book where you

534
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 2: actually get to write a scene where somebody's caught with

535
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,880
Speaker 2: their pants down, and it was a lot of fun

536
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:51,360
Speaker 2: to write.

537
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:56,040
Speaker 1: Okay, Franklin Dodge is really tempting fate here because he's

538
00:23:56,119 --> 00:24:01,919
Speaker 1: courting this wife of a organized crime gangster leader who's

539
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,880
Speaker 1: in jail. He's risking his job, he's got all these

540
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,119
Speaker 1: eyes on him from the federal government. Is anybody concerned

541
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 1: that George Remis could order a hit on either Imagen

542
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,200
Speaker 1: or Franklin Dodge. Does that happen in the nineteen twenties.

543
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,880
Speaker 2: Oh, I think Franklin Dodge was equally as arrogant as Remiss.

544
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 3: They sort of met their match in each other.

545
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 2: I think they probably had similar personality disorders, and in fact,

546
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,919
Speaker 2: they would just trade quips, you know, through intermediaries, Like

547
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 2: Remis became friendly with the newspaper reporter, a Louisville newspaper

548
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 2: reporter who then went to interview Franklin Dodge. And there's

549
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 2: another really crazy scene where Dodge just shows the newspaper

550
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 2: reporter his muscles, like actually rolls up his sleeve and

551
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:41,919
Speaker 2: shows him his muscles and says, you know, give my

552
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,920
Speaker 2: regards to Remis while he's showing off his muscles, and

553
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,239
Speaker 2: they basically just threw these taunts back and forth at

554
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 2: each other. And of course Dodge has the upper hand.

555
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 2: He also has the production of the law at this

556
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 2: point because he is a man of the law and

557
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 2: Remis is stuck in jail. So I suppose, you know,

558
00:24:57,880 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 2: what did you think Remis was going to do?

559
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:01,800
Speaker 1: Remus is going to get out at some point.

560
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 2: So Remus does get out of jail, and there's sort

561
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 2: of a great odyssey of Remas going back and forth

562
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 2: between trying to win imaging back over and trying to

563
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:14,120
Speaker 2: find where his money is, and also discovers that Imageen

564
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,440
Speaker 2: and Franklin Dodge have hired a hitman to kill him.

565
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 1: Oh no, yeah, how does he find wait? Wait wait,

566
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 1: how does he find that out?

567
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,879
Speaker 2: He hears about it, and he actually he starts trailing

568
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,200
Speaker 2: the hit man. I mean, it gets to the point

569
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 2: where it's such a farce that this hitman, this hired killer,

570
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 2: becomes so terrified of both Georgiana McGee and Reemas that

571
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:35,399
Speaker 2: he thinks he himself is the one who's going to

572
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 2: be killed. And he's like, I get you away from

573
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 2: these two. I don't want anything to do with this situation.

574
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 2: So even the hit man is like, these two are

575
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 2: crazy and I am just going to extricate myself before

576
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 2: I get murdered.

577
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 1: We just interviewed the author who wrote the book about

578
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 1: the hat Fields and the McCoys.

579
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 3: Oh, I love that book.

580
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 1: I love that book, Yes, Dean King. So he told

581
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,159
Speaker 1: me about a murder trial involving both families, and the

582
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 1: judge was a hat Field and the jury was half

583
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 1: McCoy half hat Field, And I said, was there no

584
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 1: else around to be on this jury? And he said,

585
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 1: would you want to be on a jury with Hatfields

586
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 1: and McCoy's.

587
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:13,159
Speaker 3: That's true.

588
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 1: So you're stuck in the middle between two crazy people

589
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 1: in this story, poor hit man. Yeah, so how does

590
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 1: he actually get out of millionaire's road? Does he make

591
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 1: some kind of a deal or something.

592
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 3: Marina serves his time.

593
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,680
Speaker 1: So this was not a heavy, big sentence or anything.

594
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 3: No, No, it was a couple of years, a couple

595
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,160
Speaker 3: of years in Atlanta. Yeah, and then when he gets out,

596
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 3: of course, he really discovers.

597
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 2: The extent to which Imageing had basically pillaged his home,

598
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 2: the mansion, the beautiful mansion. They renovated together millions of

599
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 2: dollars worth of furnishings and valuables, including his signature of

600
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 2: George Washington, which was one of his prize possessions fifty

601
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 2: thousand dollars at the time.

602
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 3: Yeah.

603
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 1: So Imagean took it all.

604
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 3: She took it off.

605
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 1: She just took it and drained everything.

606
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 2: One of my favorite scenes is when he actually gets

607
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 2: back to the mansion it's four in the morning, and

608
00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:00,160
Speaker 2: takes a tour through it, and it's just absolutely devastated.

609
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 1: Scared, I would think so knowing that he has gotten out,

610
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:04,680
Speaker 1: I mean, has she freaked out?

611
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,120
Speaker 2: I think she is on top of this, I should say,

612
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 2: on top of the romance with the federal agent who

613
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,120
Speaker 2: put him in jail, on top of ransacking his home,

614
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 2: on top of stealing his money. She also tries to

615
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 2: get him.

616
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:16,120
Speaker 1: Deported back to Germany.

617
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,880
Speaker 2: Departed back to Germany, she contacts the immigration authority, saying,

618
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 2: this man has never had the proper papers processed and

619
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 2: he should be deported. I think she sort of is

620
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 2: under the impression that the Dodge is going to protect her,

621
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:31,640
Speaker 2: but she increasingly becomes aware of the depth of remisus

622
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 2: anger and rage and starts to realize he is capable

623
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 2: of what she's capable of. I think Imagen and George

624
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 2: were very well matched in terms of their capacity for

625
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 2: wrongdoing and revenge and pure sociopathy. Really, I think they're

626
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 2: equal in that regard. They've really kind of deserved each other.

627
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 1: Until they didn't. And so, do you have any idea

628
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 1: this is a little bit of a side but what

629
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 1: happens with the relationships with the children? I mean, does

630
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: he get to see the children. I don't know how

631
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 1: it works in the nineteen twenties as far as visitation

632
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 1: or custody.

633
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 2: Once he moved to Cincinnati, he did not go back

634
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,440
Speaker 2: to Chicago too often. But later on he would reconnect

635
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 2: with his first daughter and she'd become a very important

636
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 2: person in his life. But during his time with Imagen,

637
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 2: I think Imagen really discouraged that, And at that time

638
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,640
Speaker 2: he was interested in pleasing Immageen and sort of went

639
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 2: along with it to his own detriment, of course.

640
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:27,199
Speaker 1: I mean, it sounds like she really was trying to

641
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,359
Speaker 1: isolate him, for sure from his family.

642
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 3: She was, but you know, I hate to put the

643
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 3: blame for that on her.

644
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 2: That he totally could have gone to see his daughter

645
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 2: anytime he pleased, but he was really focused on Ruth

646
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 2: at the time, who was living with them, and who

647
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 2: was young, and who was Imagin's daughter.

648
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 1: Is George remus able to go back to being the

649
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 1: king of bootlegging in Cincinnati once he gets out of jail.

650
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 1: Do things sort of go back to normal for him?

651
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 2: No, he contemplates the idea. But at that time, you know,

652
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 2: a few years had passed and the game had completely changed.

653
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 2: Capone and all of those players in Chicago were really

654
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 2: sort of running things. You know, New York had many

655
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 2: prominent bootleggers as well. He did not like the violent aspect.

656
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 2: I think those two groups of bootleggers and helpings were

657
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 2: being conducted, and really didn't get back into it. And

658
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 2: I think was very preoccupied with the fact that his

659
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 2: marriage was disintegrating and he had basically lost all of

660
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 2: his money, which still remains a mystery to me. You know,

661
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 2: I would love to know he had millions and millions

662
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 2: of dollars. You know, at one point this man had

663
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 2: so much money that he considered opening his own bank

664
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 2: just for his own money.

665
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: Where did it all go? Though she couldn't have spent

666
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 1: all of it.

667
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 2: A lot of it was in possessions, okay, property, jewelry,

668
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 2: expensive furnishings, artifacts, whiskey, certificates, warehouses, alcohol, So it wasn't

669
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:41,479
Speaker 2: all liquid cash or anything like that.

670
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 3: But still where did it go?

671
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 1: So he is out, he is broke. He is going

672
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 1: back and forth between Emma Jeen trying to get her back,

673
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 1: and I'm assuming she's not interested in him to potentially

674
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 1: hiring hitman on her. So where does this relationship go

675
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 1: as the years go on.

676
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 2: There are actually some quite poignant He's trying to persuade

677
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 2: her not to get a divorce.

678
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 3: He wants a reconciliation.

679
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 2: And the newspaper reporter friend I mentioned earlier in Remas's

680
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 2: right hand man, George Connor's get together and try to

681
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 2: facilitate as sort of a chat where they could discuss things.

682
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 2: Remus brings her flowers. He's really sort of seems sincere

683
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 2: and earnest about this. And this happens a couple times,

684
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 2: and every time the efforts to sort of fall apart,

685
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 2: and Remas becomes increasingly desperate.

686
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 1: Why is he so fixated on her? Is it the challenge?

687
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 1: Is it that he's an abuser? What is it?

688
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 2: I do think he had it in his strange, demented way.

689
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 2: He did have a genuine love for her. He sought

690
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 2: her advice, he saw her input. He would give her

691
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 2: an allowance, of course, and she will put that money back.

692
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 3: In the business. He would advise her and how to

693
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 3: do it.

694
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 2: I think she was his equal in a way that

695
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 2: his first wife was not, or at least in Remus's mind.

696
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 2: And I think Remis was also somebody who didn't want

697
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 2: to lose to Dodge. At this point it was a

698
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 2: battle with another man, and he was not going to

699
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 2: lose if Immagean was a piece of his property, as

700
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 2: I'm sure he viewed her in that way in some regard,

701
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 2: did not want to lose yet one more thing to

702
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 2: Franklin Dodge. The climatic incident is the day that they

703
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 2: were supposed to get divorced. This is in October of

704
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 2: nineteen twenty seven, beautiful fall morning. The divorce proceeding is

705
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 2: scheduled before early in the morning. I should say during

706
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 2: this time that Imageen carried a gun. She had a

707
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 2: pearl handled revolver. She was always armed. She was increasingly armed.

708
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 2: When she knew Remis was getting out of prison, she

709
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 2: made sure she always had a gun with her. She

710
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 2: thought Remis was going to kill her, and Remus thought

711
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:28,719
Speaker 2: that she was going to kill him. There was actually

712
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 2: a very equal neutral fear of murder at the hands

713
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 2: of the other.

714
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 1: So now we've arrived at the day of the divorce

715
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: proceedings in Cincinnati.

716
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 2: Remus goes to the Sitton Hotel where Imagina is staying

717
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 2: with daughter Ruth, and he sees them coming out of

718
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 2: the hotel in the morning, ready to get into a car,

719
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 2: and he wants the car to stop so.

720
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 3: He can talk to Imageen. And then there's a car chase.

721
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 2: There's actually a car chase, and then the gun goes off.

722
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 2: We're back to the prologue where the gun goes off.

723
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 1: Does he just fling open the door and fire.

724
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 2: No, there's a long chase. It's actually quite horrifying. At

725
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 2: some point there's a gem in the traffic and she

726
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 2: gets out of the cab that she's riding in. Hermus

727
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 2: gets out of the car he's riding in. He runs

728
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 2: after her. He runs after her for Eden Park, which

729
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 2: is this beautiful bucolic stretch of green in the middle

730
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 2: of Cincinnati that's really peaceful and lovely and at this

731
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 2: point crowded with rush hour traffic.

732
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 3: You can imagine.

733
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 2: It's a car to car runs toward a gazebo again,

734
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 2: this very scenic area in the park, and he shoots her.

735
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 3: It's horrifying.

736
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 2: It was one of those horrifying things I've ever written,

737
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 2: because he shoots her right in front of Ruf the

738
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 2: daughter and I went through this incredible trial transcript and

739
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 2: just hearing that the accounts you know, Imageen would try

740
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 2: to bang on a car door and let me in,

741
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 2: Let me in.

742
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 3: I've been shot.

743
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 2: I've been shot, and people would just dry by or

744
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 2: keep their doors closed and not look at her.

745
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 3: It was really really difficult to write.

746
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 1: It just seems like, I know it's not out of nowhere,

747
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 1: but it just doesn't seem like it fits him. I mean,

748
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 1: I know he's a erratic. I know that he's frustrated

749
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 1: and upset. Was it just too much to think that

750
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 1: she was divorcing him and that this would be it?

751
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 1: He had no more control over her.

752
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 3: He would say that he was insane.

753
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 2: Of course, you know that was going to be his argument,

754
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 2: and that the minute that he shot her, he had

755
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 2: been such a frenzy that he didn't know what he

756
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 2: was doing. But the minute he shot her, his sanity

757
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 2: was restored. And I do think we mis knew exactly

758
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 2: what he was doing.

759
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 1: So does he give up? Is he immediately arrested.

760
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 3: He is arrested, he admits what he did.

761
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 2: He said that you know, he actually conducted a great

762
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 2: good for society that morning, And I almost think that

763
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 2: some of the things he said were so outrageous that

764
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 2: I almost think it was an early part of his defense.

765
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 2: Let me say the most outrageous overt things I can

766
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 2: think of, because in retrospective they were going to look

767
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 2: like I'm crazy. And if you were somebody who just

768
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 2: killed your spouse and were maybe hoping not to be

769
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 2: convicted of that, you would think you might not be

770
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 2: so overtly awful and derogatory and really crazy sounding unless

771
00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 2: you were planning to claim you were crazy.

772
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 1: What is the challenge for you humanizing a victim like

773
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:07,959
Speaker 1: Emma Jean, who is not the most likable person in

774
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,959
Speaker 1: this story. This is difficult. Yeah.

775
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 2: I can't tell you how many people you know read

776
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 2: the book and said, you know what, I'm so glad

777
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:19,800
Speaker 2: he did it. Really, I can't tell Oh my god, everybody, everybody.

778
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 1: Boy, I don't feel like that. I don't think anybody

779
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 1: deserves to die like that.

780
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 3: And she was a mother, I agree.

781
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 2: The only person I truly felt sorry for in the

782
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 2: entire book was her daughter, Ruth, because witnessed this horrible

783
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 2: thing and actually rode with her mother in the cab

784
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 2: to the hospital.

785
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 3: Heard her mother's dying words, you know, be good. I

786
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:36,879
Speaker 3: want you to be good.

787
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 2: I mean, just horrible, really visceral scenes. But I can't

788
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:42,360
Speaker 2: tell you how many people were like, I'm reading for Remus.

789
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,319
Speaker 2: I was reading for she was a terrible woman, in

790
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,479
Speaker 2: which is an interesting reaction because when you think about it,

791
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 2: it had to be part of the mentality of the

792
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 2: George at the trial. It wasn't towards Remas on trial.

793
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 2: It was prohibition on trial. They loved the idea that

794
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 2: Remus was flouling prohibition, and it was also imaging on

795
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 2: trial because how dare she do these things and think

796
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:02,840
Speaker 2: that she might get away with it? So I believe

797
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 2: the machine herself was on trial as well.

798
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 1: Is this first degree murderer or what are they charging

799
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:07,799
Speaker 1: him with?

800
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 3: They are charging with first agree murder.

801
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 1: Yes, this is serious, the most serious charge he's ever faced.

802
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: And he has a defense attorney. What is the game plan?

803
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 1: We've kind of hinted at it already, But isn't this

804
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 1: a game plan that he sort of developed himself back

805
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 1: in Chicago when he was a defense attorney.

806
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 2: Well, he decides that he's going to plead temporary in sanity.

807
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 2: He almost got a client off in Chicago using the

808
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 2: same defense, and so he was very confident in his

809
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,799
Speaker 2: ability to present this case, he was confident in his

810
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 2: ability to make this argument. The craziest aspect of all

811
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:46,359
Speaker 2: of this is that he represents himself fleeting insanity and

812
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,280
Speaker 2: is able to finagle it so that he could represent himself.

813
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 2: Of course, he has co counsel, but Remus was really

814
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 2: the star of the show, and he was the one

815
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:54,360
Speaker 2: who's really in charge of his own defense.

816
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 1: So does it sound like George Remis is is he

817
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 1: positioned in some way as the hero throughout this whole

818
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,279
Speaker 1: thing in this trial? I mean we were talking. I

819
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 1: know he's on trial for murder, but it sounds like

820
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,280
Speaker 1: imaging's characters put on trial, prohibition is put on trial.

821
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 1: How is this whole thing framed around him?

822
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 2: Well, you know, Charlie Taft is trying to make the

823
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:17,320
Speaker 2: argument that Remus was not insane.

824
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:19,800
Speaker 3: It's a ruse. He was never insane. He wasn't insane

825
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 3: the day he shot her.

826
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 2: He wasn't insane all the times he's in prison, and

827
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 2: he claims he has these brainstorms. You know, Reems kept

828
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 2: talking about having brainstorms, which he tried to translate into

829
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 2: meeting that he was in temporary flights of insanity where

830
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 2: he wasn't aware of his surroundings, and he was ranting

831
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 2: and raving, and then he would snap out of it

832
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 2: a few minutes later and sort of be bewildered as

833
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 2: to where he'd been. How much of this is insanity

834
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 2: and how much of this is an actual, very well

835
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 2: honed performance.

836
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 1: It sounds like he was actually really captivating and the

837
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 1: jury paid attention. I guess he.

838
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 2: Had actually made the Jews cry several times. He actually

839
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 2: threw a tantrum that was quite worrying to many of

840
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 2: the jurors. You know, they worried about his health, as

841
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 2: only Remus can do. I think Remas was probably the

842
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:05,279
Speaker 2: champion tantrum thrower in American history. They came back very

843
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 2: quickly with the verdict, what was it, not guilty by

844
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 2: reason of insanity? And they actually wanted to just declare

845
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 2: him not guilty of you know, straight not guilty, but

846
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 2: that was that wasn't an option.

847
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, So what ends up happening with George remis he's

848
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 1: not going to prison, So he ends up.

849
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 3: Of course, in a hospital.

850
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 2: George Remas, as he always does, finds a way eventually

851
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,239
Speaker 2: pretty soon to be free of that situation as well.

852
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 1: How did that happen just.

853
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 3: A legal wranglings.

854
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 2: He's released, and I have to say, though, George Remas

855
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 2: is still alive, of course, but it's not a triumphant

856
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 2: ending for him. He gets to Outlin. His empire is gone,

857
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 2: the spotlight is gone. He doesn't court attention anymore. All

858
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 2: of the things he had craved and worked toward in

859
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:44,399
Speaker 2: the nineteen twenties more gone.

860
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:44,919
Speaker 3: At this time.

861
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,240
Speaker 2: He spent quite a bit of time trying to find

862
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 2: his money, filing lawsuits and scrounging around. And you know,

863
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 2: if he would sue people who he thought owed him money,

864
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 2: even for like ridiculous sums, low sums that really weren't

865
00:37:57,560 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 2: going to make a difference to him, and really live

866
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 2: the the rest of his life in a sort of

867
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 2: sad obscurity faded from you and if people approached him

868
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 2: on the street, he.

869
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 3: Kind of ran away.

870
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 1: Did he ever get remarried.

871
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 3: He did end up marrying his accountant.

872
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 1: Okay, he keeps it close. First he married as cleaning woman,

873
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 1: and now he's married his accountant.

874
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:17,399
Speaker 3: He does, Yeah, he really does keep it close. And

875
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,400
Speaker 3: she was sort of a discreet woman. They lived quietly together.

876
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 2: He dies and he's buried in Kentucky, Northern Kentucky.

877
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 1: Ultimately, what do you think the story's about.

878
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 2: It's the culture of celebrity, It's greed, it's opulence, the

879
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 2: dangers of excess. I really just want people to come

880
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,760
Speaker 2: away and say, I can't believe that was a true story.

881
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 2: That's what I really want when I write nonfiction. I

882
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 2: want people to say, I can't believe this actually happened.

883
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 2: This is stranger than any novel I've ever read. I

884
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:43,759
Speaker 2: want you to close the book and think, God, that

885
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 2: was a really crazy, interesting story. That's really all I

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00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 2: care about.

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00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:54,840
Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words.

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00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,320
Speaker 4: In eighteen fifty six, he drew all these sort of

889
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 4: con men figure years to the island, and some former

890
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 4: true believers became disaffected, as happens in these groups, and

891
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 4: really angry with him, furious with him, and they started

892
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 4: conspiring to kill him.

893
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime, please check out my

894
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:30,839
Speaker 1: books American Sherlock and Death in the year this has

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00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 1: been an exactly right tenfold more media production. Alexis and

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00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 1: Morosi is our producer, Andrew Epan is our sound designer.

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00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 1: Ellen Middleton is a researcher for US. Curtis Heath does

898
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 1: the composition. Nick Toga did the artwork, and Ilsa Brink

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00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 1: designed the website. The executive producers are Georgia Hartstark, Karen

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00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 1: Kilgarriff and Daniel Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and

901
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 1: Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold more.

902
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 1: If you are an advertiser interested in advertising on our show,

903
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 1: go to midroll dot com slash ads, and if you

904
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:02,719
Speaker 1: know of a historical true crime story that could use

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00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:05,920
Speaker 1: some attention from the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email

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00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 1: us at info at Tenfoldmorewicked dot com, Listen, subscribe, and

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Speaker 1: leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever

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00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.