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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast am on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: And welcome back to Coast to Coast George Norrie back.

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Speaker 2: Andy Thomas with us. One of the United Kingdom's leading

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Speaker 2: researchers into the unexplained mysteries and conspiracy theories. As many

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Speaker 2: works and books include the acclaimed The Truth Agenda, which

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Speaker 2: explores paranormal phenomena, global cover ups and prophecies and Vital Signs,

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Speaker 2: widely described as the definitive guide to the controversial crop

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Speaker 2: circle phenomenon and nominated for a Kindred Spirit Magazine's Best

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Speaker 2: Book Award. Andy lectures regularly around the world, makes many

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Speaker 2: regular appearances on radio and television, and here he is

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Speaker 2: back on Coast to Coast. Hello, Andy, welcome back.

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Speaker 3: It's good to be back. Thank you, George.

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Speaker 2: Our things out there in the United Kingdom.

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Speaker 3: Well a bit topsy turvy. I think, like everywhere, like you,

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Speaker 3: We've got big elections coming up this year, but nobody

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Speaker 3: is really quite sure which way to go. And you know,

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Speaker 3: I think we're living in times now where nothing will

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Speaker 3: be the same anymore, and everybody feels it in their bones,

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Speaker 3: but we're all trying to pretend that everything's going to

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Speaker 3: carry on as it was, and I don't think it will.

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Speaker 3: I think we're very much in a new era of

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Speaker 3: huge change. And you know, I think that's what you know,

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Speaker 3: people like yourselves, and you know, the work we're doing

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Speaker 3: over here, we're trying to tap into really give a

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Speaker 3: new perspective, stand back from it all and look at

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Speaker 3: maybe the bigger things that are going on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like the world has just slipped upside down,

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Speaker 2: doesn't it.

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Speaker 3: Yes, it has. But I guess that's not entirely a

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Speaker 3: bad thing as long as we respond in a positive

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Speaker 3: way to that. But I think hanging on with our fingernails,

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Speaker 3: you know, pretending that all the old things that used

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Speaker 3: to work are going to carry on working, I don't

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Speaker 3: think that that's the solution anymore. So we've got to

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Speaker 3: accept that, you know, with the advent of AI and

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Speaker 3: all of this that's coming up very quickly, some computing,

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Speaker 3: it is going to be different. So we need to

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Speaker 3: try to kind of cut the way through that that

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Speaker 3: where we get the best out of it and we

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Speaker 3: survive as human beings. And you know, we don't find

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Speaker 3: ourselves in a world that is no longrained at us.

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Speaker 2: You've got a new book coming out next year. We'll

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Speaker 2: talk about that a little bit later on and definitely

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Speaker 2: get you back on Andy when that book comes out.

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Speaker 2: But the book you wrote several years ago, the new

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Speaker 2: heretics tell us about that title.

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Speaker 3: So the new heretics, So yeah, I mean that's really

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Speaker 3: my current book came out a couple of years ago,

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Speaker 3: but it's turned out to be very relevant. So a heretic,

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Speaker 3: of course, is somebody that is deemed to be no

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Speaker 3: longer speaking the orthodoxy. And you know, throughout history we've

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Speaker 3: had heretics who've been condemned for speaking out on things

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Speaker 3: that they felt were important. And the new heretics, well

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Speaker 3: that's people like yourself, people like me, people like anybody

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Speaker 3: out there that is trying to study things that are

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Speaker 3: branded alternative this or in a branded conspiracy. And of course,

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Speaker 3: rather cleverly, what's happened over the years, is there anybody

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Speaker 3: that talks about that is now the portrayed as the

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Speaker 3: enemy because they are disrupting, you know, all the kind

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Speaker 3: of the normal things of life. Well that's how it's

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Speaker 3: put across. Whereas, of course those of us who believe

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Speaker 3: we need to talk about these areas we're saying, well, no,

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Speaker 3: it's not like that. We're not here to disrupt with

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Speaker 3: a deliberate intent for harm, which is the way that

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Speaker 3: it's put across in the media. We're trying to get

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Speaker 3: conversations going that actually, you know, reveal a layer of

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Speaker 3: reality that just needs to be looked at. So the

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Speaker 3: book is about, you know, how do we become heretics,

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Speaker 3: How can we get a world where we can actually

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Speaker 3: talk about this without polarization. And you know, we all

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Speaker 3: know polarization is one of the big topics of the time,

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Speaker 3: and we've now got everybody on one side or the

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Speaker 3: other or on any sub jet shouting at each other

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Speaker 3: across the divide, and the book The New Heretics, is

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Speaker 3: a way to try to sort of see how we

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Speaker 3: can do it differently, you know, speak our truth, get

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Speaker 3: it out there without winding up in a conflict situation.

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Speaker 3: And it's certainly you know, I'm pleased to say I've

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Speaker 3: had a lot of very positive reaction to it. It

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Speaker 3: has brought some people to looking at the other side

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Speaker 3: and considering that okay, it's all right to have a

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Speaker 3: different view, and it has stood up for people like

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Speaker 3: ourselves and got word out there that, look, we actually

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Speaker 3: have a right to exist, to question the orthodoxes that

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Speaker 3: are all around us, and you know, hopefully it will

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Speaker 3: keep doing that because we need to. We need to

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Speaker 3: keep the word out there that there are things going

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Speaker 3: on in the world that are not reflected in the mainstream.

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Speaker 2: And the mystery seem to be more acceptable today than

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Speaker 2: they were ten twenty years ago, don't they.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's interesting, I would say that is probably true

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Speaker 3: where you are. I think that's true over here. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I think because you've had in America. Of course, you've

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Speaker 3: had the US Congressional hearings right on UAPs and UFOs,

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Speaker 3: and you know that got a lot of coverage. It's funny,

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Speaker 3: our media are much more cynical over here. And although

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Speaker 3: there's been a bit of coverage of that and the

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Speaker 3: issues that's raised, there's still a sneering quality here. There's

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Speaker 3: still a feeling that you know, this is minor stuff.

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Speaker 3: It will all blow over. You know that we don't

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Speaker 3: need to take it very seriously. But that's the impression

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Speaker 3: that we get from the media. So although when you

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Speaker 3: talk to people and I give an awful lot of

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Speaker 3: lectures over here and in other countries, including your own,

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Speaker 3: you realize that actually there are people that are very

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Speaker 3: open to the paranormal, to looking at things in a

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Speaker 3: way that might be branded conspiracy and all of that,

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Speaker 3: but they're afraid to speak out. And the reason they're

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Speaker 3: afraid is that they feel they will be ridiculed or

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Speaker 3: condemned if they do. So that's the thing, especially here.

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Speaker 3: The impression given by the media is that nobody believes

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Speaker 3: in these things, and if you do, you're a terrible person.

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Speaker 3: But actually, when you talk to people one to one,

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Speaker 3: that's not how it is. A lot of them are

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Speaker 3: far more open than you would think. And I'm really

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Speaker 3: hoping that there will be some more level of well,

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Speaker 3: let's call it disclosure, whatever that turns out to be,

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Speaker 3: where the media here especially are going to have to

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Speaker 3: eat a few words and actually come back to the

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Speaker 3: table and reconsider their position. That would be very nice

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Speaker 3: if they did.

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Speaker 2: Was the British media always skeptical?

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Speaker 3: I don't think always. I think there was a time,

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Speaker 3: certainly back in the nineteen seventies, in the nineteen eighties,

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Speaker 3: you have people like Uri Gallery and all that talking

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Speaker 3: openly about psychic phenomena, and you know, there were people

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Speaker 3: Eric von Danakin and UFOs and I think there was

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Speaker 3: a time when there was a kind of a feeling, well,

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Speaker 3: this could be something, but that all changed, that all

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Speaker 3: got turned around, and then the debunking came in, and

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Speaker 3: that was similar with crop circles, which is, you know,

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Speaker 3: an area that I have long been very involved with

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Speaker 3: over the years. Most people here think the whole thing's joke,

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Speaker 3: that it all ended twenty years ago, that you know,

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Speaker 3: every single crop circle ever was all made by people,

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Speaker 3: because that's what was put out there in the mainstream

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Speaker 3: in the nineteen nineties. And although actually that position was

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Speaker 3: never proved and some of the alleged people who've made

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Speaker 3: the crop circles were really not very good at actually

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Speaker 3: making them. Nonetheless, it's stuck in the public's mind. And

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Speaker 3: you know, for the newspapers, especially here, which are famously

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Speaker 3: voracious in their attitude, you know, they just don't want

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Speaker 3: to hear anything other than what they've already stated. They

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Speaker 3: don't want to be shown to be wrong. And that's

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Speaker 3: why we've got a problem with the whole UFO UOP thing.

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Speaker 3: They've been so cynical about it for so many decades

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Speaker 3: now they don't want to turn that around. They don't

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Speaker 3: want to have to admit that perhaps they were wrong

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Speaker 3: all along, and I think that's one of the key problems.

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Speaker 3: And of course that just adds to the polarization.

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Speaker 2: Our Defense Department, Andy has an organization called the All

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Speaker 2: Domain Anomaly Resolution Office, which came out a few months

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Speaker 2: ago with a report that basically says no evidence whatsoever

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Speaker 2: of ET involvement and reverse engineering, none of this. I mean,

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Speaker 2: they almost like destroyed the whole concept. What do you

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Speaker 2: think's going on there?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so this is I think we pronounced the arrow

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Speaker 3: as a here, but yeah, absolutely so. This is where

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Speaker 3: an opportunity was missed. So we had the congressional hearings,

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Speaker 3: We had a couple of well known pilots, and of

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Speaker 3: course David Grush, the intelligence officer, saying, look, there is

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Speaker 3: a phenomenon here. We need to look at this. Now.

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Speaker 3: Not everybody is comfortable with what was said, but a

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Speaker 3: lot of people feel that this was certainly a subject

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Speaker 3: that should have been discussed. And so there was a

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Speaker 3: moment there where there was an opportunity for, you know,

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Speaker 3: the authorities to at the very least say you, all right,

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Speaker 3: look there is something here. We're not quite sure what's

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Speaker 3: going on, but we're going to let you know a

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Speaker 3: little bit more. And that was the hope, and it

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Speaker 3: looked for a brief time like that's where it was going.

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Speaker 3: But as you say, suddenly this new report comes out

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Speaker 3: at a very old world. It's absolutely like going back

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Speaker 3: to nothing here to see it's all a big joke.

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Speaker 3: I mean, the original kind of director of Arrow, who

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Speaker 3: was Sean Kirkpatrick, he resigned and he basically said, this

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Speaker 3: whole kind of thing's been hijacked by conspiracy theorists. You know,

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Speaker 3: you don't want to listen to them. I've seen no

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Speaker 3: evidence of alien intell agent blah blah blah. And the

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Speaker 3: problem with that is that there is actually an awful

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Speaker 3: lot of evidence that at the very least, even though

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Speaker 3: it might not be absolute proof, that a lot of

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Speaker 3: people in high places have revealed details which need to

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Speaker 3: be looked at, there is a phenomenon and we do

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Speaker 3: have it is said, you know, whistleblower is queuing up

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Speaker 3: to be heard. But of course now by this new

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Speaker 3: report basically trying to take us back thirty years, they're

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Speaker 3: now wondering, well, maybe this isn't the time we thought

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Speaker 3: this was the time to come forward. Maybe it isn't.

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Speaker 3: So we're at this really interesting moment where there's a

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Speaker 3: hell of a lot of interest bubbling up and endless

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Speaker 3: podcasts and researchers saying this is obviously real, we need

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Speaker 3: to know more. And then you've got the authorities saying no,

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Speaker 3: it's nothing to see here. So it's disappointing, But I

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Speaker 3: don't think it's going to end here. I think, without

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Speaker 3: any question, this is going to go somewhere. But as

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Speaker 3: the number of people are pointed out, there's a choice here.

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Speaker 3: There could have been some level of official disclosure, however mild,

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Speaker 3: or you get what's called catastrophic disclosure, where actually it

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Speaker 3: all comes out in the wrong way unexpectedly and there

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Speaker 3: might be revelations that could upset things in a way

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Speaker 3: that's actually very sort of unsilted, which is presumably not

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Speaker 3: what the authorities want. So yeah, we're at a very

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Speaker 3: very interesting time here where it goes in the next

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Speaker 3: year or so, it's going to be very interesting to see.

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Speaker 2: You had an incredible UFO case years ago in the

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Speaker 2: United Kingdom called rendelshamp Forest. Does that come up much anymore?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? So, I mean that's kind of like our version

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Speaker 3: of Roswell really, which by the way, I visited just

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Speaker 3: about three weeks ago. I've never actually physically been there before,

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Speaker 3: so I was fascinating to see the landscape round there,

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Speaker 3: visit the museum and so on. But over here we

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Speaker 3: have randals from forest. So it's where in the late

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Speaker 3: seventies and the early eighties there there was a couple

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Speaker 3: of years but there were a series of USO sightings

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Speaker 3: around the US military base there, and we've got so

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Speaker 3: much testimony that something really did occur that there really

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Speaker 3: is no question. But that in itself is another sort

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Speaker 3: of ridiculous situation where despite all the people that testified

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Speaker 3: to seeing this craft coming down, and indeed other craft

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Speaker 3: and lights that are simply inexplicable, the world was told no,

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Speaker 3: all they saw was a lighthouse which stood a few

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Speaker 3: miles away. Now, the lighthouse was there every single day,

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Speaker 3: you know what, they think the soldiers wouldn't have noticed it,

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Speaker 3: and then one night they thought a lighthouse was a UFO.

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Speaker 3: These are the kinds of ridiculous things that get put

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Speaker 3: out there in the media because if you don't know

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Speaker 3: the evidence, if you don't think about it, it sounds

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Speaker 3: credible enough to put the average. First off, anybody that

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Speaker 3: knows what actually was seen at Randullsham Forest will know

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Speaker 3: that that simply makes no sense. And Colonel Holt, who

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Speaker 3: was one of the kind of keyperson the time, you know,

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Speaker 3: he himself has said something did happen. Now, there's been

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Speaker 3: arguments about that, stories have got changed over the years,

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Speaker 3: but nonetheless it's absolutely clear that there was something there

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Speaker 3: that was covered up for a long while, but in

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Speaker 3: the end they couldn't hold it down. And that's just

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Speaker 3: one of many similar side things experiences around the world.

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Speaker 3: And this seems to be going on actually somewhere all

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Speaker 3: the time. And I think that's the thing. It's not

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Speaker 3: now just a few isolated cases. There's so many whistleblowers

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Speaker 3: coming forward who are very credible saying that there is

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Speaker 3: a near constant interaction with this craft. Let's called them

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Speaker 3: that for the sake of an argument, and you know,

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Speaker 3: authorities and they're holding it down. But how long can

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Speaker 3: you hold that down for before something has to give?

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Speaker 3: So there was an opportunity in the last year to

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Speaker 3: try to shift the conversation. It's just a bit disappointing

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Speaker 3: at the moment. They're trying to pull it back, and

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Speaker 3: I know there's a lot of forces within kind of

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Speaker 3: like the industrial military complex and governments that don't want

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Speaker 3: this to come out because of course, this kind of technology,

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Speaker 3: wherever it comes from, it's something they want to keep

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Speaker 3: for themselves and get the upper hand on the world

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Speaker 3: stage with. But I'm just not sure in the end

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Speaker 3: that that's going to keep working.

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Speaker 2: Andy. Our friend Nick Polpe used to work for the

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Speaker 2: British Ministry of Defense, a great ufologist. Does his name

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Speaker 2: come up much in the United Kingdom anymore?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean so Nick is kind of the go

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Speaker 3: to guy for the papers because you know, when next

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Speaker 3: story came out about the work he had done for

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Speaker 3: the Ministry of Defense over USOS, of course, you know

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Speaker 3: that was quite an interesting person to have there. There

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Speaker 3: are some people that feel, you know, there are others

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Speaker 3: that perhaps have got more to say, but you can't

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Speaker 3: deny Nick's done a good job in getting this stuff

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Speaker 3: out there, and I mean he's just one of many

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Speaker 3: people that are now trying to kind of put this stuff.

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Speaker 3: We've got great organizations like the Soul Foundation, you know,

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Speaker 3: led by people like Gary Nolan. I mean that they

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Speaker 3: are making huge advances in holding events, trying to get

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Speaker 3: speakers who are very high level to actually talk about

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Speaker 3: the whole UAP situation. And then there's some amazing podcasters

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Speaker 3: now that are putting out really excellent work. And you've

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Speaker 3: got people like Daniel Sheehan who's trying to kind of

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Speaker 3: from a legal point of view, get, if not disclosure,

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Speaker 3: at least you know, a more open conversation about all

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Speaker 3: of this. So you know, you've got so many people

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Speaker 3: now out there who were constantly talking about this, and

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Speaker 3: every day they're covering new footage of UFOs and new events,

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Speaker 3: and yet you've got this complete silence from the media

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Speaker 3: and the authorities as if this isn't actually happening. And

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Speaker 3: I think that is in the end a kind of

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Speaker 3: a dangerous situation because it's got to go somewhere. And

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Speaker 3: I know there've been big USO flats before, but I

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Speaker 3: do feel this time is different. And because so many

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Speaker 3: other things in the world do you seem to be

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Speaker 3: turning upside down, and I mentioned AI and that is,

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Speaker 3: you know, an area that I think is going to

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Speaker 3: change many many things. There are, of course, some people

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Speaker 3: that believe that the ets that people meet the graves

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Speaker 3: and all of that are in themselves the kind of

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Speaker 3: biological AI. So it's bringing a number of objects together.

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Speaker 3: And some think the fact that this is coming to

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Speaker 3: a head now is actually not coincidental.

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Speaker 2: Do you think there are people within government ours and

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Speaker 2: yours that are resistant to disclosure? Is there a faction

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Speaker 2: there that's fighting this.

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Speaker 3: Yes, it we definitely seem so, and certainly in the

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Speaker 3: US because like after the congressional hearings, you know, and

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Speaker 3: obviously there were very good people there that were open

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Speaker 3: to this, you know, people like Tim Burcher has done

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Speaker 3: amazing work in trying to just get a conversation going

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Speaker 3: about it. But equally, yeah, they have the opposition. There

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Speaker 3: are people in very high places that you know, on

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Speaker 3: the surface they will say that we don't want to

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Speaker 3: talk about it because it's obviously or false, there's nothing

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Speaker 3: worth talking about. But of course a lot of people

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Speaker 3: see that as just to cover for the fact that

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Speaker 3: actually there very much is something worth talking about. But

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Speaker 3: you've got an issue, I suppose, because ayes, they probably

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Speaker 3: want this kind of technology kept under wraps because they

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Speaker 3: want it for themselves. They want to get the upper hand.

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Speaker 3: But there's the other argument, and kind of Davy Grush

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Speaker 3: sort of hinted at this in the congressional hearings, which

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Speaker 3: is that, of course there might be things that might

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Speaker 3: well disturb the public if you announce that ets are here.

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Speaker 3: That is a big thing. And although perhaps you and

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Speaker 3: I and many people listening today wouldn't be so worried

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Speaker 3: about that because we're used to that idea, unfortunately, I

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Speaker 3: think a lot of the world would react, probably quite

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Speaker 3: so that they're in a very shocked way to that.

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Speaker 3: And then you've got to deal with the fallout from that.

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Speaker 3: And then you are basically saying, well, actually the authorities

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Speaker 3: cannot control their own airspace. That doesn't look terribly good.

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Speaker 3: People won't feel so secure. And then the day you

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Speaker 3: announce that the etes are here and we've got some

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Speaker 3: of their technology, you suddenly realize that authority is stepped

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Speaker 3: up to another level, that actually our authority is our

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Speaker 3: governments may not be the bottom line, because if their

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Speaker 3: power is higher than men and more powerful than them,

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Speaker 3: then what you know, who's controlling the show. So it

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Speaker 3: does raise I think many serious issues, and I do

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Speaker 3: feel that that is one of the reasons why there

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Speaker 3: is I think a conflict going on within governments and

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Speaker 3: you know, probably beyond to right down to the black

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Speaker 3: ops levels where yeah, this is it is a serious debay.

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Speaker 3: So it's not straightforward. I know that, you know, we

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Speaker 3: all want some level of disclosure, but of course even

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Speaker 3: if some extra level did come, now there's always going

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Speaker 3: to be people feeling, well, they're not telling us the

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Speaker 3: whole truth, and are they giving us any truth? Is

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Speaker 3: this in itself another distraction? So you know, we've all

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Speaker 3: got into the situation where nobody's going to be quite

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Speaker 3: sure what to believe anymore, and that in itself, of

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Speaker 3: course presents a lot of difficulties.

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