1 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:05,120 Speaker 1: Were you aware at any time that Jake and your 2 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: dad and your mom weren't planning to kill the Rose? 3 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:08,160 Speaker 2: No? 4 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:10,079 Speaker 3: Was that ever discussed with you? 5 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 2: No? 6 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 4: He said straight up, we don't get along. He said 7 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:16,639 Speaker 4: there were times he wanted to leave, and I wondered 8 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 4: if that was really true, and maybe he did want. 9 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:20,919 Speaker 3: To leave, but he didn't do it. 10 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 2: Describe your relationship name I looked hand as a baby sister. 11 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 5: I personally was surprised that the sent specifically said were 12 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 5: you there? Did you do anything you know about it? 13 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 5: Any time? When did you find out that they were 14 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 5: guilty or that they had actually participated? 15 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 2: I never would have believed my family would be capable 16 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 2: of doing something of this magnitude. 17 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 6: This is the Pike Did Massacre Returned to Pike County 18 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 6: Season four, episode twenty one, George Wagner takes the stand. 19 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 6: I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Kat's Studios with 20 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 6: Stephanie Leidecer and Jeff Shane. It's important to note that 21 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 6: George Wagner has pleaded not guilty and has maintained he 22 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:14,400 Speaker 6: did not kill anyone. His father, Billy Wagner, whose trial 23 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 6: is upcoming, has also pleaded not guilty to all charges. 24 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,400 Speaker 6: Facing a mountain of evidence and testimony placing George Wagner 25 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:24,320 Speaker 6: the Fourth at the center of the plot to kill 26 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 6: the Rodent family, his lawyers made a surprising decision to 27 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 6: call him to the stand. The unexpected move was described 28 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 6: as a quote Hail Mary by many trial watchers. During 29 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 6: his testimony, George Wagner's lawyers painted him as the black 30 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,400 Speaker 6: sheep of the family. During the first day of his testimony, 31 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,839 Speaker 6: George calmly disputed nearly everything that had been said about 32 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 6: him by other witnesses, and while describing his criminal upbringing, 33 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 6: George Wagner frequently spoke of wanting to escape from his 34 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 6: own family. Today. 35 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 3: It was a bombshell day, if you will, of testimony. 36 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 6: For nine weeks, George Wagner the Fourth has sat quietly 37 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 6: as a parade of witnesses, from police investigators to his 38 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 6: own brother and mother picked apart his claim of innocence 39 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 6: and ignorance. 40 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 3: George, let me adjust this microphone for you. Just keep 41 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 3: your voice up real loud so hear you. Please stage 42 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 3: your full name for the. 43 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 2: Record, George washing King Wagner the Fourth. 44 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:24,640 Speaker 3: You've been sitting in this trial for any weeks. 45 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 2: Right, yes. 46 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 6: But on the forty second day of the trial, wearing 47 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:30,639 Speaker 6: a white collar dress shirt, dark tie, and a gray vest, 48 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 6: George Wagner took the stands in his own defense. His 49 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 6: attorney began by asking George to describe the troubled environment 50 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 6: he grew up in. 51 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 3: Let's talk about your education first. Okay, did you ever 52 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 3: go to a public school. 53 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:48,079 Speaker 2: For a very short period of time? 54 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 3: So how did you get your education? 55 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 6: My mother homeschooled, but George Wagner's homeschooling didn't last long. 56 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 6: By the age of fourteen, his official education was over. 57 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 6: It was replaced by a different type of education. 58 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 3: When did you quit? 59 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 2: I felt that I didn't need anymore and I just 60 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 2: wanted to do my own thing. My father quit in 61 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 2: the sixth grade. 62 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:13,239 Speaker 3: And so what did you want to do? Qu school? 63 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:16,079 Speaker 3: What did you do with your life? Did you have 64 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 3: any or aspiration? 65 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:19,799 Speaker 2: When I was a young kid, I wanted to be 66 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 2: either a game warden or a forester. And when I 67 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 2: got older, my father pushed me more towards being a 68 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 2: decent mechanic and a truck driver. Was that my father 69 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 2: didn't want nobody in the family that wore a badge? 70 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:34,239 Speaker 3: Why was that? 71 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 2: He thought all law enforcement was crooked? 72 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 6: George Wagner said when he was young, he and his 73 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 6: father had a great relationship and that the pair spent 74 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 6: many days hunting and fishing together. But his father, Billy Wagner, 75 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 6: was also responsible for George Wagner's other education. 76 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 3: In your youth, did he teach you other things? 77 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 2: My father taught me how to open a lock, how 78 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 2: to steal fuel, how the steel loads or break into loads? 79 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 3: How did he actually do it? Did he set you 80 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 3: down and explain. 81 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 2: How he bought uh, like a lock pick set in 82 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 2: terms of like a whole bunch of different locks and picks, 83 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 2: And then you sit us down for hours until we 84 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 2: could figure out how to open it? 85 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 3: And what would what would he do? If anything? Would 86 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 3: you want you learn how to do that? 87 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 2: After my brother and I learned how to do it, 88 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 2: he would go from my hotel to hotel in different 89 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:28,719 Speaker 2: counties and open the vending machines in them. 90 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 3: Would he do it? 91 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 2: Usually you'd have my brother do it. Why your brother, 92 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 2: My brother can open the lock in a matter of seconds, right, well. 93 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 3: What about your three four minutes? So your brother was 94 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 3: a little better picking locks? To me, Yes that your 95 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 3: dad took both in and around to pick one. Yes, 96 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 3: what kind of locks would you have? Your pick? 97 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 2: Pad locks? Vending machine locks was the most common door 98 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,720 Speaker 2: locks on trucks. Ignition, which is all right? And what 99 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 2: would be the purpose vending machines? Yeah, he would take 100 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 2: the coin box and the cash box out of it. 101 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:09,039 Speaker 3: And did he teach you anything else around that age? 102 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 2: Just how to break in the trailers and drive off 103 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 2: his loads. 104 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 7: And with the loads, you go around, take the padlock 105 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 7: and the hinges off so you don't break the seal. 106 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 2: It's it's the seal is broken. It's instantly. Somebody's been 107 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 2: in it. So you got to take a hinge off 108 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 2: and open it without it. But you see what's in 109 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 2: the trailer. If it's something you wanted, then you'd unload it. 110 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 2: If it's not, you put the handback on the way. 111 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 3: Ever knows it was opened, right and your was with you? 112 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 2: Yes, all right? 113 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 3: And he would pick out the truck. Yes, did he 114 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:52,160 Speaker 3: have any like methods or codes or anything like that 115 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 3: as far as how would he pick out truck? 116 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:58,279 Speaker 2: Usually it had to end up being a company truck. 117 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 2: But Walmart was like the one he went after more 118 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 2: than anything. 119 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 3: And why was that you do? 120 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 2: He despises Walmart. I don't know why. 121 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 3: Now did your mother know about these activities? 122 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 2: Yes? She was there ninety nine percent of the time. 123 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 3: Yes, and she knew your father was teaching. 124 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:17,239 Speaker 6: Yes. 125 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 3: Were there other things that your father taught you around 126 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 3: how the steel fuel steal fuel? Yes, so your dad 127 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 3: taught you to steel fuel and pick lots. When you 128 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:32,840 Speaker 3: would go out with your father, would he ever teach 129 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 3: you to look out for things or not look out 130 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 3: for things? Is or anything like that? 131 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 2: So the job was you were always supposed to make 132 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 2: sure you could see a top before they seen you, 133 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 2: or to know where every camera was. 134 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 3: All right, So why did you explain how he touched it? Uh? 135 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 2: It really goes back to when I was a kid 136 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 2: and he was still around in Pennsylvania a lot for 137 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:55,840 Speaker 2: every cop me or my brother would see, we'd get 138 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 2: a dollar when we were a kid, all right, And 139 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 2: that goes back to like eight years old, even before 140 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:01,359 Speaker 2: he started the theft. 141 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:04,679 Speaker 3: And how old is that life's weird? 142 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 2: Can eleven? He would go around and start out with 143 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 2: the we'd go down one street or something and if 144 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 2: we missed one that he missed, then we'd lose four 145 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 2: wheeler for a week. Or if he pointed one out, 146 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 2: the wee get and see we get four wheeler taken 147 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 2: for a week. 148 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 6: Here's Stephanie and Jeff. 149 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 8: The fact that George Wagner took the stand in his 150 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 8: own defense unexpectedly. 151 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 2: Nobody in the. 152 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 8: Courtroom was anticipating him to take the stand that day, 153 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 8: and I have to say he was very composed. He 154 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 8: seemed very prepared. I mean, think about it. The stakes 155 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 8: could not be higher for him. And when he describes 156 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 8: his childhood, it's almost as though he was born into 157 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 8: a family of con artists. You know, here he is 158 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 8: being taught how to pick padlocks and steal fuel and 159 00:07:56,400 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 8: steal coins from vending machines. These are crimes. Granted, they 160 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 8: are petty crimes and nowhere equivalent to murder, but it 161 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 8: does paint a picture of what was happening in his 162 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 8: early days. 163 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 9: It's possible that the defense was feeling the pressure and 164 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 9: decided it can't hurt to have George Wagner take the stand. 165 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 9: And I think he did a pretty good job. He 166 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 9: does not seem emotional to me. He seems more credible 167 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 9: than Jake and Angela Wagner. Now it might be different 168 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 9: because Jake and Angela Wagner's stories line up, she said, 169 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 9: versus he said. I mean, he's extremely prepared for this moment. 170 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:33,679 Speaker 9: You know, we might be surprised, but I imagine this 171 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 9: is something he and his lawyers were working on for 172 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 9: weeks and probably running through potential questions and potential answers. 173 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 9: So for him, this is the culmination of probably a 174 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:45,479 Speaker 9: lot of practice. 175 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 8: And remember accused killer Dad Billy Wagner, he's very anti government, 176 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 8: anti law enforcement. We've heard many, many stories about him 177 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 8: preparing for the end of days. So the other side 178 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 8: of this is, you know, in a very rural area 179 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 8: in the event of a disaster, Billy Wagner wanted to 180 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 8: make sure that their kids were prepared and could survive 181 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 8: in any situation. That's the nice way of framing it. 182 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 8: But the truth was they were stealing, and they were 183 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 8: stealing on a very high level at a very young age. 184 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:22,839 Speaker 9: If I'm the Rodent family, I'm thinking, I don't care. 185 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 9: There's no excuse for allegedly murdering eight people. To me, 186 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 9: you know, you got your ATV taken. 187 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 3: Away as a kid. 188 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 9: I don't know how that equates to being a part 189 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 9: of an eight person homicide. But again, I mean this 190 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 9: whole case. You know, we've heard a lot of things 191 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 9: that we don't think are relevant, and what the jury 192 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 9: is thinking and what the judge's thinking, we can't say. 193 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean, it's interesting context because obviously George Wagner's 194 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 8: attorneys are really painting a picture of a guy who 195 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 8: was considered maybe second best to his brother. Much has 196 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 8: been made about perhaps Jake was favored by his parents 197 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 8: and that George was always the outcast and trying to 198 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 8: step away from the family and maybe look away from 199 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 8: their scams and cons and just try to get out 200 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 8: to make a better life for himself. It matters, maybe 201 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 8: because it offers some insight into how he just has 202 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 8: always been used to ignoring them, and maybe that's how 203 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 8: he was able to ignore the fact that his family 204 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 8: was commiserating to murder eight people. Or is that just 205 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 8: wildly far fetched now decades later? Does that excuse you 206 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,959 Speaker 8: of what you're being accused of? On the other hand, 207 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 8: it also does paint a picture of how people are 208 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 8: potentially indocrinated into really dangerous behavior. 209 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 6: By the time George Wagner was a teenager. He said 210 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 6: he was growing apart from his own family and that 211 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 6: he was growing closer to his uncle Chris Nucom. The 212 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 6: two regularly went hunting and rode ATVs around the farm. 213 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 3: Let's talk about chrispher More. Explain your relationship with Chris. 214 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 2: Chris is more like a brother to me than an uncle. 215 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 2: That we were almost identical, and everything we like and do. 216 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 3: And what type of things would you do to you go. 217 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 2: Mudd and hunting, fishing, Just see how far we could 218 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 2: go on four wheeler in a day. 219 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:22,079 Speaker 3: And would Jake be part of. 220 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:24,680 Speaker 2: This in his own way? Sometimes? 221 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 3: Yes? All right? 222 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 2: He was always left behind? 223 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:28,959 Speaker 3: And what was he left hunt? 224 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:31,440 Speaker 2: He didn't want to get his four wheeler as dirt Michael, ever, 225 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 2: he had dirty and he'd run like two mile an hour? 226 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 3: And how were you and kristin? 227 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 2: Kind of like a bad out help. 228 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:42,559 Speaker 6: George Wagner said his brother Jake preferred to play video 229 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 6: games and to play with action figures. 230 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 2: He had hundreds of them. Every time he got as 231 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 2: a young kid, he spent on action figures. He would 232 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 2: set them up on the shelf and stare at them 233 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 2: for hours. 234 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 3: And did you play with him as well? 235 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,719 Speaker 2: No? But I would go in and move them when 236 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 2: he was there, just to see if he'd knows it, 237 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 2: and you could move with like a centimeter he'd know. 238 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 3: And did that ever cause any products? 239 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 2: Many many of fights? 240 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:09,959 Speaker 3: Would you do that just to kind of double your brother? 241 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 2: Just to antagonizing this? 242 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 3: Antagonize him? Did he have any particular video games he liked? 243 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 2: Marvel Universe, Resident Evil left for Dad? That's another one. 244 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:23,080 Speaker 2: I can't remember what it was. 245 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 3: What other type of things would you and Chris as. 246 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 2: You got over right? Party run girls? 247 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 6: Wagner testified he started drinking alcohol at age thirteen and 248 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 6: was partying regularly around the time he was eighteen years old. 249 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 6: George met Frankie Rodin the pair became quick friends. 250 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 2: Did you consider it a good friend or I can 251 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 2: said you one of my best friends? 252 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:48,559 Speaker 6: George said his life changed once he got his driver's license. 253 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 6: He made new friends and was able to get away 254 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 6: from his mother Angela and brother Jake. 255 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 2: Because I have freedom. Freedom I could leave when I wanted, 256 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,959 Speaker 2: hang out for my uncle or Frankie or John and 257 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 2: Nathan Walls Garrett Leaf all right? 258 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 3: And did that cause any problems? 259 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 2: Back home on Bethel Hood, my mom was never happy 260 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 2: about it. 261 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 3: Tell us about that. 262 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 2: She always said that I was leaving my brother to 263 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:17,719 Speaker 2: do all the work, and I needed to be more 264 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:18,680 Speaker 2: like him to stay home. 265 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 6: Around the time George got his driver's license, his father, 266 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 6: Billy Wagner, bought him a huge Chevy pickup truck for 267 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 6: about twenty five hundred dollars. But even that purchase created 268 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 6: lasting tension because Billy Wagner also bought more expensive pickup 269 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:32,080 Speaker 6: for Jake. 270 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 2: He got his three or four months before mine. My 271 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 2: mother made my father buy it for him, all right. 272 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 3: Was it a cheap truck and expensive truck? 273 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:42,719 Speaker 2: It was sixteen thousand dollars, So he. 274 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 3: Got this sixteen thousand dollars truck before you got any truck? 275 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 2: Yes? And how did that make you feel considering the 276 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 2: one I wanted? Was I was told no for? And 277 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 2: then a couple of weeks later they bought my brother's 278 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 2: truck that was the same price. It not a good 279 00:13:58,200 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 2: feeling for a fifteen year old. 280 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:01,719 Speaker 3: Did you express your feelings? 281 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 2: I brought it up many times my entire life. 282 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 3: A little bit bitter about that. 283 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 6: Yes, Still there, with freedom and new friends, George Wagner 284 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 6: spent most of his free time partying with Frankie roodin 285 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 6: at nearby Big Bear Lake. 286 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 3: Describe the drinking parties or whatever that you did. 287 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 2: You played drinking games and drink until one of us 288 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 2: fell out, which was usually me. 289 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 3: Right, Did you enjoy that? 290 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 2: Yes? 291 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 3: Did that cause any problems back at the home? 292 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 2: Yeah? My mother didn't let me being down there. 293 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 3: Why. 294 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 2: She said it was a bad environment and a bad 295 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 2: influences and I was basically going to end up sending 296 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 2: myself to hell from it. 297 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 3: And how would she tell you that or when would 298 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 3: she tell you that? 299 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 2: Almost daily? 300 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 6: George testified that his mother, Angela, regularly berated him for 301 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 6: his amoral lifestyle, also that she viewed Jake is an angel. 302 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 2: When my mother had him paranoid that he was going 303 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 2: to go to hell, and she kept beating into everybody's 304 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 2: head if you do anything that you're making Jesus cry 305 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 2: and you're going to end up going to hell. She 306 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 2: would say that all the time. If you say one 307 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 2: curse word, or if you do anything which she thought 308 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 2: was that appropriate. What would she say that you're in, 309 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 2: you know, going down entirely bad road, or you're making 310 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 2: Jesus cry for this or that or depending on the situation. 311 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 2: What was your reaction, I really didn't have one. I 312 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 2: did what I wanted to do. 313 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 3: What about Jake? 314 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 2: Jake was always terrified of going to help. 315 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 3: How would you describe Jake as compared to you at 316 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 3: this point? 317 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 2: At this point, yeah, we are nothing alike. 318 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 3: And how would you describe your relationship as you went 319 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 3: through your teams. 320 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 2: I spend as much time away from Jake as I 321 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 2: possibly could. 322 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 6: We're going to take a break. We'll be back in 323 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 6: a moment. George described his brother Jake as rude and 324 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 6: lacking a filter. 325 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 2: He goes with somebody's house and he thinks he's dirty. 326 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 2: He's gonna tell him your house is filthy. If he 327 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 2: thinks you stink, he'll tell you go take a shower. 328 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 2: He has no filter. 329 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 3: Did that cause a problem. 330 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 2: Yes. He insults people, and a lot of my friends 331 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 2: and stuff didn't like him being around. Did that cause 332 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 2: you yes, because then they didn't want to hang out 333 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 2: with me. My brother thinks that he's a satan, can 334 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 2: do no wrong, and he's better than everybody. And he 335 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 2: thinks that him being honest with people is what people 336 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 2: wants to hear about his opinion of their self, and did. 337 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 3: That cause a problem with your relationship with your mom? 338 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 2: Yes, my mother thinks that I should be like him. 339 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 2: She's always said that, what do you mean. She thinks 340 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 2: that he's a satan, does no wrong, and she thinks 341 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 2: that I'm basically going to help. 342 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 6: Here's investigative journalists and lawn crime reporter Anjeanette Levy. 343 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:07,160 Speaker 4: He made it sound like, you know, angela favorite Jake. 344 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 4: He always got in trouble for what Jake did. Jake 345 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 4: would blame him for things when they were kids. But 346 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 4: I mean, he said, straight up, we don't get along. 347 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 4: We'd fight all the time, and sometimes we get along, 348 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:21,680 Speaker 4: and then most of the times we didn't. I can't 349 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:24,440 Speaker 4: imagine existing like that. He said there were times he 350 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 4: wanted to leave, and I wondered if that was really true, 351 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:29,639 Speaker 4: and maybe he did want to leave, but he didn't 352 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 4: do it. 353 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 6: Later, George told the jury that his younger brother Jake, 354 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 6: was also regular at Big Bear Lake, but instead of partying, 355 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 6: Jake would hang out with his new thirteen year old girlfriend, 356 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 6: Hannah Mee Rodin. 357 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 2: He would sit in the tan or around the campfire, 358 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 2: back and ark where he was with Hannah all night. 359 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 3: He wouldn't join in with the Drew. 360 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 2: No, he wouldn't let Hannah either. 361 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 3: Did Anna try to join sometimes? 362 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 2: Yes, Jake wouldn't let her go. What he getting more 363 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:00,879 Speaker 2: in Hannah having bad influences dranking her party. 364 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 6: At this point in George's testimony, Having set up the 365 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 6: tensions between George and his mother and brother, defense attorney 366 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:09,919 Speaker 6: John Parker pivoted back to the Wagner's life on Bethel 367 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 6: Hill and began to unpack the Wagner's history of criminal activity. 368 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 2: The first house was a single white trailer. When six 369 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 2: years old, my mother tried to burn the house down. 370 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:24,360 Speaker 2: That failed because she didn't know what she was doing 371 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 2: in the beginning, all right, explain the if there was 372 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 2: no heir, it's mother's out. And she had everything closed 373 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 2: up in the beginning, so just a kitchen, living room. 374 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 3: Mary barn all right, and your mother set that on fire. 375 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 2: She had my father set it on fire. But it 376 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 2: was her plan, and she's the one taught my father 377 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 2: how to do it right. 378 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: And you remember this when you were six or seven 379 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 1: years old? And what did you think about that when 380 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 1: you were a kid. 381 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 6: Really had no improt on it, George said, after his 382 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 6: parents remodeled their first trailer. They added a second one, 383 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 6: but once again, his parents set fire to their newly 384 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 6: remodeled home. 385 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 3: In two thousand. You were about nine years old roughly, 386 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 3: all right? And what do you mean they. 387 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:12,160 Speaker 2: Burned hy burned that one down and succeeded with that one. 388 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:13,119 Speaker 3: Who's dead? 389 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 2: My father and my mother? 390 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 3: And how did they burned? 391 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,680 Speaker 2: Same MESSI there's always a whole batch of newspapers stuck 392 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 2: underneath the fusebox. 393 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 1: So at this point in time, when you're nine years old, 394 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: approximately your first two homes have been burned by your 395 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: mom and dad. 396 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 6: Yes, later, the Wagoners built a more permanent home on 397 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 6: their property. It was nicknamed the quote Kentucky Wonder Mansion, 398 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 6: and George said he was fond of this house because 399 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 6: he had his own area that allowed him to leave 400 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 6: whenever he wanted. George said he often did this to 401 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 6: avoid working with his mother in her dog breeding business. 402 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:50,399 Speaker 2: She expected me and my brother to put in eight 403 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:54,479 Speaker 2: to ten hour days and basically not get paid for it. Okay, 404 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 2: So every time she'd turn her back, I'd be gone. 405 00:19:57,840 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 3: And so what did your mom played? 406 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 2: She'd always throw a fit for me leaving my brother. 407 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:05,919 Speaker 3: And did she sell a lot of dogs? Lots of 408 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:10,880 Speaker 3: them made money at it? A lot, right? And what 409 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 3: type of dogs. 410 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 2: At that point? English bulldogs and laborator treads? 411 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:18,400 Speaker 3: Yes, were they always pure bread? 412 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 2: She would well start with the labs. The English bulldogs 413 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:28,400 Speaker 2: were legit because it's hard to find something that looks 414 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 2: like them. But the labs. If one of the females 415 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:34,639 Speaker 2: had eight puffs, she would go to the pound and 416 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:36,920 Speaker 2: get four or five more if it look like them. 417 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 2: And if she sold the eight, she'd just say she 418 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:42,440 Speaker 2: didn't sell the eight, and then she'd resell the ones 419 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 2: that she got from the pound that may or may 420 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 2: not be a lab. Occasionally, if it had a white 421 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 2: spot on a black dog that looked identical to a lab, 422 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 2: she'd just dye the hair. Who was she would dye 423 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 2: the hair so it would turn it black and you 424 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 2: wouldn't have had a white spot on it. And how 425 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,919 Speaker 2: long did the dog business go on until it burned? 426 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 3: What happened? 427 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,120 Speaker 2: We came home from Columbus one night, late at night, 428 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,880 Speaker 2: and it was laying in ashes, all four a dog 429 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,439 Speaker 2: cannels And how many dogs close to one hundred? 430 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 3: Did you ever find out how that dog kill or burn? 431 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 6: But the fires didn't stop. George said his parents burnt 432 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:24,640 Speaker 6: the Kentucky Wonder Mansion in two thousand and seven. When 433 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 6: his parents considered moving to Alaska, however, they decided to 434 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 6: stay in Ohio and built a new house, which contained 435 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 6: a special room in the basement for a new business 436 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 6: opportunity with Chris Roden Sr. 437 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 3: All Right, what was ever used? 438 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 2: It was used for growing marijuana. 439 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 3: Explain that it. 440 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:44,400 Speaker 2: Was ten foot wide by forty foot long. 441 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 3: All right? And were you ever in that room? 442 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 2: No? 443 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 3: Why not? 444 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 2: I don't agree with drugs. 445 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,640 Speaker 6: George also testified that his family once stole a truckload 446 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 6: of boots. 447 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 2: From the beginning, my father and other people that he 448 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 2: drove with had choices. Basically, they were either going to 449 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 2: take a load of diapers or a load of rocky boots. 450 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,440 Speaker 2: Who actually hooked the trailer? I can't say. I was 451 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 2: not there. I don't live who hooked it. But the 452 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 2: plan was either the diapers or the boots. My mother 453 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 2: was pushing for the diapers, and my father and his 454 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,439 Speaker 2: friends all wanted the boots, so my mother sided with 455 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 2: them and they went with the boots. 456 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 3: Okay, So what happened then? 457 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 2: The boots showed up, and my dad's friends and hit 458 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 2: their family. My dad, my brother, and I my mom 459 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 2: unloaded the trailer, all right. 460 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 3: And so what what happened next? 461 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 2: We unloaded it and he got divided three ways, and 462 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,919 Speaker 2: then they hauled the trailer out. Why everybody hauled their 463 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 2: boots to whoever's house they were going to? 464 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 3: And how many boots are we talking about it? 465 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 2: Fifty three one oh two load thousands. 466 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,120 Speaker 3: Thousands of boots? Yes, and your mom. 467 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 2: Was involved in that, Yes, she helped plant, She helped plant. 468 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 3: Yes, and so did you guys get some of the boots. 469 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 2: Everybody in Pike County was wearing Rocky boots at that point. 470 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 1: Are you aware of any other deaths between two thousand 471 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:02,399 Speaker 1: and five twenty fourteen, bomb or dad or family? 472 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,680 Speaker 2: How many do you want me to go into, because 473 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 2: I can go for days. 474 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 6: George Wagner detailed many other crimes his family committed, from 475 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 6: stealing Dell computers to copper wiring after the items were sold. 476 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,440 Speaker 6: George said his father, Billy Wagner, would hide money around 477 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 6: the country. 478 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 3: Did your dad ever tell you something about a pension 479 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 3: plant he had? 480 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 2: My father used to say that he buried money across 481 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 2: the US in different spots. When he gets big, big 482 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 2: loads of stuff that he would take in all to 483 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 2: Mexico and sell. He would take the money and bury it. 484 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 3: Where would he bury it? 485 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 2: I can't say that, just know somewhere between here and Texas, 486 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 2: That's what he told. He said, multiple places. 487 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,640 Speaker 3: So if your standard, he would take a load. 488 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 2: Of what copper, aluminum, and he would come back. 489 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 3: Yes, what would he come back with? 490 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 2: Brown paper bags full of money? 491 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 3: How much money? 492 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 2: Anywhere? One hundred and two hundred thousand, depending on what 493 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 2: the price of scrap was at that time. 494 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 3: How do you know it? 495 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 2: Because my brother and I would count it. 496 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:11,880 Speaker 3: That was your job, Yes, to count that one. 497 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:16,359 Speaker 6: Yes, here again, Stephanie and Jeff. 498 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 8: This is pretty shocking. It's a pretty wild detail. Two 499 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 8: hundred thousand dollars in a little brown bag is a 500 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:28,639 Speaker 8: lot of cash. So you're buying scraps, You're stealing scraps 501 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 8: of aluminum and copper, and then hiding the money in 502 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:34,920 Speaker 8: various places throughout the country. 503 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 3: It's a big plan. 504 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 8: It shows a lot of thinking. By the way, if 505 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 8: any of the wagoners were using some of these clever 506 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 8: ways of making money legally, imagine how successful they would be. 507 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 8: It takes a lot of thought and preparation and care 508 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 8: to even come up with the plan to be able 509 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,200 Speaker 8: to hide money in various parts of the country, And 510 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 8: all of the stealing and the thieving and the oursin 511 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 8: and the receipts, it's just all used for bad. Does 512 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 8: that mean it's not such a leap to imagine them 513 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:09,439 Speaker 8: as murderers? Maybe not. 514 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,400 Speaker 9: Where I think George Wagner's testimony goes a little off 515 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 9: the rails is this section about bearing money and all 516 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 9: of the things, because to me, it just makes the 517 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 9: whole family only seem more out of their minds, and 518 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 9: they looked at themselves as this criminal enterprise who everyone 519 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 9: was out to get them, and they were being trailed 520 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 9: and tracked at all the moments of the day, so 521 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:29,679 Speaker 9: much so that they had to hide money across the 522 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,399 Speaker 9: country and brown paper bags. It only to me adds 523 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,439 Speaker 9: to the level of depravity and true lunacy that was 524 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 9: going on inside this home that, by all accounts, George 525 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 9: Wagner the fourth was very much a part of. 526 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 6: Let's stop here for another break. Despite being close to 527 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 6: his father as a young boy, the pair grew apart 528 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 6: when George was a teenager and after his father Billy, 529 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 6: began driving long haul truck. 530 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 2: Routes after the dog kennels burned the last one, my 531 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:06,639 Speaker 2: father started driving the truck. 532 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 3: And did you notice any changes in your father after 533 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:10,920 Speaker 3: he started driving. 534 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 2: Yes, my father has a habit of wanting to be 535 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,239 Speaker 2: identical to whoever he takes to the father figure at 536 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 2: the time. 537 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:19,920 Speaker 3: What do you mean by that? 538 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:21,160 Speaker 2: He has daddy issues? 539 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 3: Okay? And so when he started driving truck, did you 540 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 3: notice a change? 541 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 2: Yes? 542 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 3: What did you know? 543 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 2: The guy he was driving with took multiple different things 544 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 2: to stay awake, and my father couldn't keep up with him, 545 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 2: so he started doing the same thing. 546 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 3: What do you mean he started doing the thing. 547 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 2: He would take? What's that guy he was driving with 548 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:43,159 Speaker 2: was taking, like taking multiple handfuls of ad effects and 549 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 2: pain pills. 550 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,120 Speaker 3: And did you notice any changes in his. 551 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 2: Behaf It made him very irritable, hard to be around. 552 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 3: Did that cause any problems in your relationship. 553 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,880 Speaker 1: With I loved it, He said he had a tumultuous 554 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 1: relationship with his father, Billy ever called three fist fights 555 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: they got into over the years. 556 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 2: My brother ran me over with my own truck when 557 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 2: he was trying to look up a trailer and I 558 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,199 Speaker 2: was yelling at my brother, and for some reason my 559 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:11,120 Speaker 2: father went off on me, right, and. 560 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,919 Speaker 3: He said, your brother, Randy Lowe, was a a purpose. 561 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 2: Or an accident. He was not paying attention. 562 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 3: Were you injured? 563 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 2: Not really? Just a little black and blue, all right? 564 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 3: And so what happened? 565 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 2: My father thought I was just yelling at my brother 566 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 2: for no reason and pushed me up against my truck 567 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 2: and dared me to hit him. 568 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 3: Okay, and you were sixteen, yes, and so what happened? 569 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 2: I was just fed up with it, so I hit him. 570 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 2: What do you mean I hauled off and hit. 571 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 3: Him with your fist? Yes, And what happened? 572 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:41,880 Speaker 2: Then he hit the ground and he got back up 573 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:43,360 Speaker 2: and we went into a fist fight. 574 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:45,360 Speaker 3: How long did that? 575 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,479 Speaker 2: A few minutes till my mother broke it up? 576 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 3: And so did that first fist fight affect your relationship 577 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 3: with your death? 578 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:55,359 Speaker 2: We didn't speak for a few weeks after that. 579 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,159 Speaker 1: And so were there other instances or other times you 580 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 1: got into a fight. 581 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:01,640 Speaker 3: With your dad? 582 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,680 Speaker 2: Yes? Three more. I remember two more fist fights. In 583 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 2: one that was just like a massive verbal argument. He 584 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 2: called me dumb, say I wouldn't listen. Call me ignorant 585 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:17,159 Speaker 2: all the time I worry about in my late teens. 586 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 3: So what happened? 587 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:20,120 Speaker 2: Then I hit him again? 588 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 3: Did he hit your back? 589 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 2: Yes? 590 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 3: What happened? 591 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 2: We got into another fist fight for four or five 592 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 2: minutes until it endedn't. 593 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:28,919 Speaker 3: Did that affect your relationship? 594 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 2: Another three or four weeks and they're talking to each other. 595 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 6: In early twenty sixteen, there was another fight between George 596 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 6: and Billy. This one nearly turned deadly. 597 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 2: My father got upset and while I was leaving and 598 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 2: broke the passenger's side window out of the truck and 599 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 2: shattered me a glass. 600 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 3: How did he do that? 601 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 2: He punched the window and then then my aari always 602 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 2: kept on my dash, He grabbed it and threw it 603 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 2: across the yard into the dog pin. 604 00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 6: Fift. 605 00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: That's a gun, yes, and so you broke out the 606 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 1: passenger side window and grabbed your gun that was on 607 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: the dash. 608 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 3: And so what happened after? 609 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 2: I got upset because he just threw my arm But 610 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 2: I just recently bought a few months prior, and me 611 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 2: and my father went to another fist fight. Not to 612 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 2: really go into a lot of detail, but my father lost. 613 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 3: So did that affect your relationship? 614 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 2: Yes, we went over two months without speaking. I want to. 615 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 6: Say more on that next time. For more information on 616 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 6: the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at 617 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 6: katie Underscore Studios. The piked In Maskers produced by Stephanie Leidecker, 618 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 6: Jeff Shane, Connor Powell, Andrew Arnell, Gabriel Castillo and me 619 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 6: Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Ta Music 620 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 6: by Jared Aston. The piked In Masker is a production 621 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 6: of iHeartRadio on Katie's Studios. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, 622 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 6: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 623 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 6: to your favorite shows.