1 00:00:01,840 --> 00:00:08,719 Speaker 1: Welcome to Brainstuff, a production of iHeartRadio, Hey Brainstuff, Lauren Volabahm. Here. 2 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: Popular media and social media alike are full of casual 3 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:18,920 Speaker 1: diagnoses of sociopathy and psychopathy. You've probably heard these terms 4 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 1: come up in everything from true crime podcasts to horror 5 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 1: films to advice articles like seven Signs You're Dating a Sociopath. 6 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: According to a therapist, the words sociopath and psychopath are 7 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:34,199 Speaker 1: both often used to describe someone who does things for 8 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: personal gain or who hurts other people, from telling lies 9 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: to stealing to committing grizzly violent crimes. But what do 10 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 1: these terms actually mean? Talk to various mental health providers 11 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: and psychological researchers, and you may get different answers before 12 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: the article. This episode is based on How Stuff Work. 13 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: Spoke via email psychotherapist Terry Cole. She said the terms 14 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: are often used interchangeably in popular literature, chronology writing, and 15 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: within the media at large, but they are not diagnostic 16 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: terms and not exactly the same. That means that you 17 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 1: won't find the definition for psychopath or sociopath in the 18 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:19,199 Speaker 1: Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders because doctors don't 19 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: give an official diagnosis for psychopath or sociopath. Instead, they 20 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: may diagnose someone with antisocial personality disorder. This is a 21 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: mental health condition in which a person consistently shows no 22 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 1: regard for moralistic concepts of right and wrong. Also displays 23 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:39,759 Speaker 1: a profound lack of empathy and a dominant self importance. 24 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 1: How stuff works also spoke by email with Eileen Anderson, 25 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 1: a professor of bioethics an adjunct professor of psychiatry in 26 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: the School of Medicine at Case Western Reserve University. She said, 27 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: typically sociopathy and psychopathy are lay terms to describe what 28 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: gets diagnosed as antisocial personality disorder. However, other personality disorders, 29 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: such as narcissistic personality disorder or borderline personality disorder could 30 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:11,519 Speaker 1: be invoked to the extent that there's a difference between 31 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: a quote unquote psychopath and a sociopath. Anderson explained that 32 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: research indicates that those whom lay people refer to as 33 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 1: sociopaths might feel some remorse proceed with antisocial behavior that 34 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: fits their agendas anyway. Meanwhile, by common definitions, quote psychopaths 35 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 1: feel no conscience or remorse for risky behavior. They feel 36 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: entitled to achieve their personal goals, even when those goals 37 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: might include acts that most would include as unconscionable, such 38 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: as lying, stealing, assault, or even killing someone. When you 39 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: hear the word psychopath, you might think of pop culture 40 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: examples of villains from movies or books like Hannibal Lecter, 41 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: a person who has violent tendencies and seems to enjoy 42 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: hurting others. The latter quality is referred to as sadism. 43 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 1: These two traits are not the same thing, but they 44 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: are correlated, That is, they tend to appear with one another. 45 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: In general, mental disorders don't fit neat labels, partially because 46 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: we're developing and updating our understanding of mental health all 47 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: the time. For example, the term psychopath was coined as 48 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:27,519 Speaker 1: psychopastiche by German psychiatrist J. L. A. Cock in eighteen 49 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: eighty eight to describe subjects with a tendency to hurt 50 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: themselves or others. It was a characteristic that he believed 51 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: someone was born with Another German psychiatrist Karl Bernbaum observed 52 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: the same sort of pervasive pattern of antisocial behavior, but 53 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: felt it was caused by societal forces that made it 54 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: difficult for young adults to learn a more acceptable way 55 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 1: to act. He came up with a different term, sociopathy 56 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 1: to describe this in nineteen o nine. American psychologist George E. 57 00:03:56,400 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: Partridge helped popularize the term in the nineteen thirties. Over 58 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: the years, both terms were used in psychological literature, sometimes interchangeably, 59 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 1: but again, neither of these terms are used as a 60 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: diagnosis today. How Stuff Works also spoke with David Schester, 61 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: an associate professor of social psychology at Virginia Commonwealth University 62 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: whose research focuses upon understanding the psychological and biological processes 63 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 1: that motivate and constrain aggressive behavior. He explained, we're referring 64 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: to what we call a psychological construct or trait. People 65 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:37,919 Speaker 1: can't be reduced down to a single trait, so instead 66 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: of using the term psychopath, for example, he might describe 67 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:45,679 Speaker 1: someone as having high psychopathy. He said, it's a dimension 68 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 1: of personality, kind of a cluster of traits, the same 69 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 1: way that extraversion is a personality dimension. Psychopathy really reflects 70 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 1: what we call an antagonistic disposition, in which my own 71 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 1: desires and wishes and things like that are placed well 72 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 1: above the well being and desires and outcomes of other people. 73 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: The most common Psychopathic traits include negative affect or neuroticism, 74 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: detachment or low extraversion, disinhibition or low conscientiousness, and antagonism 75 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: or low agreeableness. Chester said that the hallmark feature of 76 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 1: psychopathy is a quote callous indifference to other people's suffering. 77 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: That is, where most people who see someone else in 78 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:35,040 Speaker 1: pain might experience an empathetic or sympathetic response. A person 79 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 1: with a high degree of psychopathy might feel a blunted 80 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: reaction or a lack of empathy. Altogether, the portrayal of 81 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: these and similar traits in popular culture definitely muddles the definitions. 82 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: You may have seen sociopathy described as volatile and impulsive 83 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 1: and psychopaths as cold and heartless, but again, they are 84 00:05:56,200 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: not two distinct disorders, and these tendencies are highly correlated. 85 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: The same person might act like a hothead and lash 86 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:07,039 Speaker 1: out in some situations, but at other times behave cunning 87 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: and stone cold. Chester said, instead of being hot and 88 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 1: cold versions of the antagonistic personality, it's really that these 89 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 1: are two strategies occurring in the same individual. At the 90 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: core of both is a basic antagonism and indifference to 91 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: others well being, especially when it comes to one's own 92 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 1: personal gain. But again, traits like antagonism and personal attachment 93 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: are found in varying degrees in different people, along with 94 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: other less scary or even admirable traits. Chester said, in 95 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 1: the overall population, one or two percent of people have 96 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: serious diagnosable levels of psychopathic tendencies. But that's not to 97 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: say that outside of that, psychopathy isn't an important critical 98 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: trait that people have varying degrees of. A person who 99 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,599 Speaker 1: has a high degree of psychopathy might even seem kind 100 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:03,719 Speaker 1: and pathetic in some situations. I think of Tony Soprano, 101 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:07,239 Speaker 1: the likable fictional mobster who's the protagonist of the TV 102 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: series The Sopranos. He's capable of forming attachments and being 103 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: an affectionate father. He even cares about the welfare of 104 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: a family of ducks living in a swimming pool, but 105 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: has no qualms about killing an ex mobster who's turned 106 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: to government witness, or about beating up a guy for 107 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: dating his ex a. Chester said, Tony Soprano is not 108 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: a paradoxical character. He's very realistic and that sometimes he's nice, 109 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 1: sometimes he's not interested. He's honestly one of the better 110 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 1: examples of psychopathy because he displays it in all its messiness. 111 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: A mental health professionals debate whether people with the high 112 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 1: degree of psychopathy lack empathy or sympathy, or whether they 113 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 1: have the ability but choose not to use it. According 114 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: to Chester, the can't feel camp has been the dominant narrative, 115 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: but he be a growing number of other researchers think 116 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: the choice does fact. During the equation, he explained that 117 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 1: brain scans of subjects with psychopathies show they not only 118 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: have empathetic circuits, but they do use them, though not 119 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 1: necessarily in the way that most of us do, and 120 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: individual psychopathic tendencies might want to understand someone else's pain 121 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: not because they want to help, but because that knowledge 122 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: would enable them to hurt someone in the future more 123 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: effectively if that helps get them something that they want today. 124 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 1: We still don't know who will or won't develop antisocial 125 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 1: personality disorder. There's no single cause. Instead, research indicates that 126 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: it results from a complex combination of genetic factors and 127 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 1: environmental factors, including early family life and emotional attachments to 128 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 1: parents during childhood. As with any mental health issue, if 129 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:52,680 Speaker 1: you're concerned about yourself or someone you care for, reach 130 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: out to a healthcare professional for more resources. We are, 131 00:08:56,240 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 1: after all, just a podcast. Today's episode is based on 132 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: the article What's the Difference between a Sociopath and a Psychopath? 133 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: On HowStuffWorks dot com written by Patrick J. Higer. Brainstuff 134 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 1: is production of iHeartRadio in partnership with how Stuffworks dot 135 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: Com and is produced by Tyler Klang. Four more podcasts 136 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 1: my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 137 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.