1
00:00:16,311 --> 00:00:16,711
Speaker 1: Pushkin.

2
00:00:23,751 --> 00:00:26,911
Speaker 2: You can't predict these things. You have to make your

3
00:00:26,951 --> 00:00:30,351
Speaker 2: decision on the best available knowledge. You know, once you

4
00:00:30,391 --> 00:00:35,150
Speaker 2: get into retroactive clairvoyance, is nobody left of anything.

5
00:00:35,431 --> 00:00:39,311
Speaker 3: You had all of these different people calling from Florida

6
00:00:39,391 --> 00:00:43,271
Speaker 3: and leaving messages saying do something. Why don't you do something?

7
00:00:47,711 --> 00:00:51,191
Speaker 1: Hello, Fiasco listeners, it's Leon Vok. This is the fourth

8
00:00:51,231 --> 00:00:53,751
Speaker 1: in a series of bonus episodes we're dropping in this feed.

9
00:00:54,511 --> 00:00:56,671
Speaker 1: The goal is to showcase some of the best interviews

10
00:00:56,671 --> 00:00:59,191
Speaker 1: we did for Bush v. Gore, in which we covered

11
00:00:59,191 --> 00:01:01,551
Speaker 1: the ins and outs of the two thousand Florida recount.

12
00:01:02,191 --> 00:01:05,271
Speaker 1: In today's episode, we're looking at the two thousand campaign

13
00:01:05,831 --> 00:01:08,671
Speaker 1: as in the campaign itself, the thing that happened in

14
00:01:08,711 --> 00:01:11,071
Speaker 1: the months leading up to the recount, for all the

15
00:01:11,151 --> 00:01:14,431
Speaker 1: what ifs packed into the thirty days that followed election Day.

16
00:01:14,911 --> 00:01:18,071
Speaker 1: The campaign that preceded it was full of tiny turning

17
00:01:18,111 --> 00:01:20,911
Speaker 1: points that could have changed the outcome one way or another.

18
00:01:21,751 --> 00:01:23,591
Speaker 1: As you heard me say on the first episode of

19
00:01:23,591 --> 00:01:27,071
Speaker 1: the show, the Elian Gonzales saga and the environmental activism

20
00:01:27,111 --> 00:01:29,951
Speaker 1: around the Homestead Air Force Base were just two factors

21
00:01:29,991 --> 00:01:32,791
Speaker 1: that might have changed the razor thin margin on election day.

22
00:01:33,711 --> 00:01:36,671
Speaker 1: So today we have two interviews taking a deeper dive

23
00:01:36,711 --> 00:01:39,951
Speaker 1: into the what ifs that might have prevented or recount altogether.

24
00:01:46,631 --> 00:01:50,671
Speaker 1: First up, Ralph Nader. Nader has been America's most famous

25
00:01:50,711 --> 00:01:54,391
Speaker 1: consumer advocate since nineteen sixty five, when he published a

26
00:01:54,391 --> 00:01:59,031
Speaker 1: groundbreaking expose about the auto industry. Nader trained an entire

27
00:01:59,111 --> 00:02:03,151
Speaker 1: generation of activists. They called themselves Nator's Raiders, and he

28
00:02:03,191 --> 00:02:07,471
Speaker 1: deputized them to investigate all kinds of injustice, inefficiency, and corruption.

29
00:02:08,631 --> 00:02:11,911
Speaker 1: By two thousand was an icon, and he ran for

30
00:02:11,951 --> 00:02:15,071
Speaker 1: president as the Green Party candidate, railing against the two

31
00:02:15,111 --> 00:02:17,511
Speaker 1: party system and sold out arenas.

32
00:02:17,031 --> 00:02:19,751
Speaker 4: What about poverty in the Land of the Free, Home

33
00:02:19,791 --> 00:02:22,911
Speaker 4: of the brave, booming economy. On the one hand, twenty

34
00:02:22,951 --> 00:02:26,471
Speaker 4: percent child poverty in the USA, richest country in the world.

35
00:02:26,711 --> 00:02:29,631
Speaker 4: There are countries in Western Europe that have abolished poverty.

36
00:02:29,791 --> 00:02:30,191
Speaker 4: They did it.

37
00:02:30,391 --> 00:02:32,631
Speaker 1: We interviewed Nator for the first episode of the season

38
00:02:32,791 --> 00:02:35,711
Speaker 1: because his candidacy is so often blamed for Gore's defeat

39
00:02:36,111 --> 00:02:38,751
Speaker 1: and we wanted to hear his perspective on it. Nator

40
00:02:38,831 --> 00:02:41,311
Speaker 1: mapped out why he thought he was a necessary alternative

41
00:02:41,431 --> 00:02:43,991
Speaker 1: and why he thought Gore struggled as a candidate.

42
00:02:43,991 --> 00:02:46,591
Speaker 2: Because he was the front runner, he was too cautious,

43
00:02:46,991 --> 00:02:51,911
Speaker 2: and because he was too cautious, he didn't take pioneering stands.

44
00:02:51,991 --> 00:02:54,031
Speaker 2: He thought he could just say to the public, Look,

45
00:02:54,351 --> 00:02:57,311
Speaker 2: I had eight years of experience in Washington's vice president,

46
00:02:57,391 --> 00:03:00,111
Speaker 2: I was senator, I was representative. I was a journalist

47
00:03:00,191 --> 00:03:05,591
Speaker 2: in Vietnam. And who's this guy, this bumbling governor from

48
00:03:05,671 --> 00:03:08,631
Speaker 2: Texas who couldn't put four sentences together and had a

49
00:03:08,671 --> 00:03:13,231
Speaker 2: horrible record on children's poverty to a corporate pollution.

50
00:03:13,791 --> 00:03:15,831
Speaker 1: And when you when you looked at him and Bush

51
00:03:15,871 --> 00:03:17,791
Speaker 1: side by side on the campaign trail, and I realized,

52
00:03:17,791 --> 00:03:19,631
Speaker 1: you know, you're making distinction between the old al Gore

53
00:03:19,711 --> 00:03:21,550
Speaker 1: and the al Gore who was running for president. When

54
00:03:21,551 --> 00:03:23,511
Speaker 1: you looked at them side by side, what did you see?

55
00:03:23,991 --> 00:03:26,551
Speaker 2: Bush was horrible? I mean, one of the reasons I

56
00:03:26,671 --> 00:03:31,191
Speaker 2: ran was to push the Democrats into a more comprehensive

57
00:03:31,311 --> 00:03:36,151
Speaker 2: assault on Bush's record, because they weren't doing it, and

58
00:03:36,191 --> 00:03:38,351
Speaker 2: so I was saying to myself, well, you know, I

59
00:03:38,391 --> 00:03:41,151
Speaker 2: got to show them how to do it. Unfortunately, in

60
00:03:41,231 --> 00:03:44,591
Speaker 2: the two party duopoly, the press doesn't pay attention to

61
00:03:44,671 --> 00:03:47,191
Speaker 2: third party agendas. By and large.

62
00:03:48,431 --> 00:03:49,991
Speaker 1: When you were on the trail, I know that you

63
00:03:50,591 --> 00:03:53,271
Speaker 1: sort of had a recurring argument that you would make

64
00:03:53,271 --> 00:03:55,631
Speaker 1: that these two guys are in many ways the same,

65
00:03:55,751 --> 00:03:58,151
Speaker 1: or that they were that they you could make distinctions

66
00:03:58,151 --> 00:04:00,711
Speaker 1: on certain policy areas, but that you saw them in

67
00:04:00,751 --> 00:04:02,991
Speaker 1: some ways as fundamentally the same. Can you elaborate on

68
00:04:03,031 --> 00:04:03,831
Speaker 1: that or explain it?

69
00:04:04,071 --> 00:04:07,711
Speaker 2: Yeah, on certain social safety nets, obviously, they're very different.

70
00:04:08,191 --> 00:04:12,631
Speaker 2: On things like child health, health and childcare and medicare

71
00:04:12,751 --> 00:04:18,231
Speaker 2: preservation and some of the more basic civil liberty, civil rights,

72
00:04:18,791 --> 00:04:22,951
Speaker 2: housing issues. The Democrats were of course better, I mean

73
00:04:23,151 --> 00:04:26,231
Speaker 2: nowhere near enough, but they were very distinctly better than

74
00:04:26,271 --> 00:04:30,150
Speaker 2: the Republicans. But on the biggest issue of AWE, which

75
00:04:30,191 --> 00:04:37,431
Speaker 2: is the corporate state, crony capitalism, corporate welfare, militarism, they

76
00:04:37,471 --> 00:04:39,510
Speaker 2: were increasingly alike.

77
00:04:40,151 --> 00:04:43,751
Speaker 1: Did that carry over into a sense among the electorate

78
00:04:43,871 --> 00:04:47,190
Speaker 1: that this election wasn't that important? Did you detect an

79
00:04:47,311 --> 00:04:51,391
Speaker 1: unusual level of disengagement due to these these pacific candidates.

80
00:04:51,911 --> 00:04:54,271
Speaker 2: Let's put it this way, it was not an exciting election.

81
00:04:54,471 --> 00:04:57,591
Speaker 2: You had boring candidates. Al Gore is very boring candidate.

82
00:04:57,631 --> 00:05:01,190
Speaker 2: George W. Bush was a boring candidate. They agreed with

83
00:05:01,271 --> 00:05:04,991
Speaker 2: each other incredible number of times on the debate. Somebody

84
00:05:05,031 --> 00:05:08,511
Speaker 2: counted once that Bush and Gore agreed with each other

85
00:05:08,631 --> 00:05:12,551
Speaker 2: over twenty times in one residential debate. And so the

86
00:05:12,591 --> 00:05:16,671
Speaker 2: attention of the activists was they would paint George W.

87
00:05:16,791 --> 00:05:20,911
Speaker 2: Bush as bad on the environment, which is true. But

88
00:05:21,031 --> 00:05:24,911
Speaker 2: then Gore, he allowed Bill Clinton to shut him down

89
00:05:24,991 --> 00:05:32,190
Speaker 2: on regulating auto pollution, fuel efficiency standards, and generally were

90
00:05:32,671 --> 00:05:36,071
Speaker 2: very unexciting in the area of environment, which is his

91
00:05:36,191 --> 00:05:40,871
Speaker 2: principal claim to fame. People saw that he wasn't authentic

92
00:05:40,991 --> 00:05:43,871
Speaker 2: when he said I'm for power for the people, not

93
00:05:44,071 --> 00:05:48,031
Speaker 2: the corporations. I'm not for the insured companies, I'm not

94
00:05:48,231 --> 00:05:53,711
Speaker 2: for the oil companies. People really didn't believe them. It

95
00:05:53,791 --> 00:05:57,911
Speaker 2: was too little, too light, and not specific enough. He

96
00:05:57,951 --> 00:06:01,111
Speaker 2: could have done a lot, but he was coasting because

97
00:06:01,351 --> 00:06:02,671
Speaker 2: he thought he had it in a bag.

98
00:06:03,591 --> 00:06:06,071
Speaker 1: It's interesting to hear you say that he was cautious

99
00:06:06,071 --> 00:06:08,070
Speaker 1: because he thought he had it in the bag. I

100
00:06:08,071 --> 00:06:11,111
Speaker 1: feel like there's a competing narrative, or at least one

101
00:06:11,151 --> 00:06:14,391
Speaker 1: I've absorbed somehow that he was cautious because he didn't

102
00:06:14,391 --> 00:06:14,991
Speaker 1: know who he was.

103
00:06:16,431 --> 00:06:18,911
Speaker 2: Well, when I say he was cautious because he thought

104
00:06:18,911 --> 00:06:20,751
Speaker 2: he had it in a bag. That wasn't the only

105
00:06:20,791 --> 00:06:25,190
Speaker 2: reason he was cautious. He's a cautious politician to begin

106
00:06:25,271 --> 00:06:29,871
Speaker 2: with in his prior races, very very cautious. Finger to

107
00:06:29,951 --> 00:06:32,791
Speaker 2: the wind of the powers that be? That's Al Gore

108
00:06:33,071 --> 00:06:35,551
Speaker 2: fingers to the wind of the powers that be.

109
00:06:36,991 --> 00:06:39,871
Speaker 1: Do you agree that there's this phrase that he didn't

110
00:06:39,911 --> 00:06:42,591
Speaker 1: know who he was? Is that something that you subscribe to?

111
00:06:42,831 --> 00:06:42,951
Speaker 5: Oh?

112
00:06:42,991 --> 00:06:45,911
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. If you look at the way he came

113
00:06:45,951 --> 00:06:48,351
Speaker 2: out for each debate, he was a different Al Gore.

114
00:06:49,351 --> 00:06:53,591
Speaker 2: One time he was aggressive, another time he was aloof

115
00:06:54,231 --> 00:06:57,431
Speaker 2: a third time he was like a boxer in a clinch.

116
00:06:58,031 --> 00:07:04,111
Speaker 2: I agree with Governor Bush. You know, over twenty times.

117
00:07:04,191 --> 00:07:08,031
Speaker 1: In one debate you said you didn't do much campaigning

118
00:07:08,031 --> 00:07:09,711
Speaker 1: in Florida, that you'd just gone down for I think

119
00:07:09,751 --> 00:07:12,351
Speaker 1: you said two and a half days. Was that because

120
00:07:12,391 --> 00:07:14,431
Speaker 1: you didn't want to draw votes from Gore in a

121
00:07:14,471 --> 00:07:16,191
Speaker 1: battleground state as close as Florida.

122
00:07:16,991 --> 00:07:22,511
Speaker 2: No, it was not the best management of my schedule.

123
00:07:23,191 --> 00:07:26,151
Speaker 2: I mean, I wasn't pulling that high in Florida. I

124
00:07:26,231 --> 00:07:31,311
Speaker 2: was pulling much higher in places like Massachusetts, California, Oregon,

125
00:07:31,511 --> 00:07:35,711
Speaker 2: Washington State, Illinois, and that's where I wanted to spend

126
00:07:36,151 --> 00:07:39,071
Speaker 2: a lot of time because I was looking for the

127
00:07:39,151 --> 00:07:43,031
Speaker 2: aggregate vote. I wasn't in the running for electoral college votes.

128
00:07:43,071 --> 00:07:46,111
Speaker 2: I was looking try to get five percent of the

129
00:07:46,231 --> 00:07:50,951
Speaker 2: total popular vote so we could qualify four years hence

130
00:07:51,391 --> 00:07:52,471
Speaker 2: for federal funds.

131
00:07:53,151 --> 00:07:56,271
Speaker 1: Were there gore people or people from the DNC who

132
00:07:56,471 --> 00:07:59,831
Speaker 1: begged you to not campaign in battleground states.

133
00:08:00,231 --> 00:08:03,111
Speaker 2: Well, in the last few weeks, they didn't beg me.

134
00:08:03,151 --> 00:08:07,311
Speaker 2: They opposed me. They literally took people like Lauria Steinem

135
00:08:07,351 --> 00:08:11,031
Speaker 2: and so on on a tour to turn again against

136
00:08:11,031 --> 00:08:15,151
Speaker 2: my candidacy. Some of them took out ads attacking me.

137
00:08:16,031 --> 00:08:17,911
Speaker 1: Were there any backchannel efforts to get you to not

138
00:08:18,031 --> 00:08:21,511
Speaker 1: go to those states like ay other Buchanan, for example,

139
00:08:21,751 --> 00:08:24,191
Speaker 1: like very deliberately did not go to battleground states. You

140
00:08:24,271 --> 00:08:26,231
Speaker 1: only can't because he was only also going for five percent.

141
00:08:27,431 --> 00:08:30,271
Speaker 1: He campaigned only in safe states that were safe for Bush.

142
00:08:30,431 --> 00:08:33,831
Speaker 2: Yeah. I just thought of principle, I wouldn't listen to

143
00:08:33,871 --> 00:08:35,910
Speaker 2: that sort of thing because you have to respect the

144
00:08:36,030 --> 00:08:38,670
Speaker 2: voters in every state. You can't say I'm not going

145
00:08:38,751 --> 00:08:41,831
Speaker 2: to go to a state because it's a battleground state.

146
00:08:42,310 --> 00:08:46,910
Speaker 2: That's disrespecting potential voters and the interest of all voters

147
00:08:46,910 --> 00:08:50,111
Speaker 2: to have more voices and choices. That's why I rigorously

148
00:08:50,550 --> 00:08:54,430
Speaker 2: campaigned in every fifty states. No other candidate did that,

149
00:08:54,631 --> 00:08:58,311
Speaker 2: small candidate or major party candidate, because it was a

150
00:08:58,310 --> 00:08:59,511
Speaker 2: matter of principle with me.

151
00:09:00,471 --> 00:09:04,351
Speaker 1: Do you remember the emergence of the Nators raiders for Gore?

152
00:09:05,550 --> 00:09:10,991
Speaker 2: Yeah, very much. I was campaigning in Minnesota and got

153
00:09:11,751 --> 00:09:15,550
Speaker 2: their one or two days press. But you know, they

154
00:09:15,550 --> 00:09:19,151
Speaker 2: weren't in a position to adopt the principle I had.

155
00:09:19,190 --> 00:09:22,670
Speaker 2: They weren't running, Therefore, they didn't want to be obliged

156
00:09:22,710 --> 00:09:26,391
Speaker 2: to respect the voters. They just saw the winner take

157
00:09:26,430 --> 00:09:30,991
Speaker 2: all electoral college duopoly, culled the sac and had to

158
00:09:31,030 --> 00:09:31,790
Speaker 2: adjust to it.

159
00:09:33,391 --> 00:09:35,950
Speaker 1: Did you feel betrayed by them at all, that these

160
00:09:35,950 --> 00:09:38,551
Speaker 1: were your supporters who were going against this principle of

161
00:09:38,590 --> 00:09:41,950
Speaker 1: yours about respecting the voters. That it feel like, I like,

162
00:09:42,231 --> 00:09:43,711
Speaker 1: these guys don't really understand you.

163
00:09:43,950 --> 00:09:46,231
Speaker 2: Well, they were more numerous in two thousand and four.

164
00:09:47,190 --> 00:09:53,231
Speaker 2: Almost the entire progressive lineup of well known progressives dropped

165
00:09:53,271 --> 00:09:55,111
Speaker 2: their supported me in two thousand and four.

166
00:09:56,710 --> 00:09:59,111
Speaker 1: Is that because they just felt so sad about the

167
00:09:59,111 --> 00:10:02,910
Speaker 1: fact that your votes in Florida could have been Gore votes,

168
00:10:02,950 --> 00:10:04,431
Speaker 1: and thus Gore could have been present.

169
00:10:05,231 --> 00:10:08,631
Speaker 2: It's like all smart people they were fact deprived and

170
00:10:08,710 --> 00:10:13,910
Speaker 2: they didn't realize that there were tens sena quantons, any

171
00:10:13,950 --> 00:10:17,190
Speaker 2: one of which, if change, would have won for Gore

172
00:10:18,070 --> 00:10:24,190
Speaker 2: and electoral college and three hundred thousand Democrat voters going

173
00:10:24,231 --> 00:10:29,151
Speaker 2: for Borsch's Supreme Court loss of Tennessee. They bought into

174
00:10:29,190 --> 00:10:33,830
Speaker 2: blaming the Greens and me for every other sena quantone,

175
00:10:34,511 --> 00:10:39,151
Speaker 2: giving us delusions of grandeur. It's amazing. It's almost a

176
00:10:39,351 --> 00:10:42,511
Speaker 2: intellectual tick. It doesn't matter how smart they are, how

177
00:10:42,590 --> 00:10:45,271
Speaker 2: savvy they are. All they look at is the difference

178
00:10:45,790 --> 00:10:49,350
Speaker 2: between the two major candidates and how many votes I got.

179
00:10:50,231 --> 00:10:53,591
Speaker 2: Every third party candidate in Florida got more than five

180
00:10:53,670 --> 00:10:57,190
Speaker 2: hundred and thirty five votes, by the way, But the

181
00:10:57,550 --> 00:11:00,431
Speaker 2: one thing you can look back on is that a

182
00:11:00,471 --> 00:11:06,230
Speaker 2: winner take all system electoral college determination is full of mischief,

183
00:11:11,151 --> 00:11:11,551
Speaker 2: all right.

184
00:11:11,631 --> 00:11:14,471
Speaker 1: That was Ralph Nader, the Green Party presidential candidate in

185
00:11:14,511 --> 00:11:22,351
Speaker 1: two thousand. For many frustrated Gore supporters, Ralph Nader's candidacy

186
00:11:22,430 --> 00:11:24,991
Speaker 1: is one of the most enduring what ifs of the election.

187
00:11:25,790 --> 00:11:28,711
Speaker 1: But there's another election day question mark, one that received

188
00:11:28,830 --> 00:11:32,470
Speaker 1: much less attention during the recount that's coming up after

189
00:11:32,511 --> 00:11:32,910
Speaker 1: the break.

190
00:11:38,670 --> 00:11:40,990
Speaker 3: Some people said that they went down and they were

191
00:11:40,991 --> 00:11:43,951
Speaker 3: told they weren't on the registration rolls, and they couldn't

192
00:11:44,030 --> 00:11:46,310
Speaker 3: understand why they weren't on the roles because they'd been

193
00:11:46,391 --> 00:11:47,070
Speaker 3: voting before.

194
00:11:47,590 --> 00:11:50,830
Speaker 1: This is Mary Francis Berry, a professor at the University

195
00:11:50,830 --> 00:11:54,271
Speaker 1: of Pennsylvania. She's referring to a population of largely African

196
00:11:54,310 --> 00:11:57,030
Speaker 1: American and Latino voters who said they were turned away

197
00:11:57,030 --> 00:12:00,310
Speaker 1: from the polls on election Day. In two thousand, Barry

198
00:12:00,391 --> 00:12:02,791
Speaker 1: was the chair of the US Commission on Civil Rights,

199
00:12:03,030 --> 00:12:06,670
Speaker 1: which was tasked with investigating complaints of disenfranchisement around the country.

200
00:12:06,950 --> 00:12:09,151
Speaker 3: We had to set up a hot land before the

201
00:12:09,231 --> 00:12:12,950
Speaker 3: election so that if there were any complaints, we would

202
00:12:12,950 --> 00:12:15,030
Speaker 3: have a number out there that people could call. We

203
00:12:15,070 --> 00:12:18,070
Speaker 3: had done that in other elections, but in this one

204
00:12:18,151 --> 00:12:22,030
Speaker 3: you had all of these different people calling from Florida

205
00:12:22,070 --> 00:12:26,030
Speaker 3: and leaving messages saying do something, Why don't you do something?

206
00:12:26,590 --> 00:12:29,151
Speaker 1: And so this was like an unusual volume of complaints

207
00:12:29,310 --> 00:12:31,391
Speaker 1: and they were specifically concentrated in Florida.

208
00:12:31,430 --> 00:12:35,351
Speaker 3: Absolutely, they were a volume higher than any I had

209
00:12:35,391 --> 00:12:37,590
Speaker 3: seen and all the time I'd been on the Commission,

210
00:12:37,590 --> 00:12:41,190
Speaker 3: and I was first appointed to the Commission in nineteen eighty.

211
00:12:41,910 --> 00:12:44,471
Speaker 1: In early two thousand and one, the Commission on Civil

212
00:12:44,550 --> 00:12:47,391
Speaker 1: Rights investigated the large number of Florida voters who had

213
00:12:47,430 --> 00:12:50,191
Speaker 1: reported problems at polling sites that prevented them from voting.

214
00:12:50,751 --> 00:12:53,631
Speaker 1: Over the course of their investigation, Barry and her colleagues

215
00:12:53,670 --> 00:12:56,991
Speaker 1: her testimony from dozens of Florida voters and officials, including

216
00:12:57,030 --> 00:12:58,870
Speaker 1: Governor Jeb bush I.

217
00:12:58,830 --> 00:13:03,470
Speaker 5: Asked for a briefing on the alleged concern that felons

218
00:13:04,111 --> 00:13:08,310
Speaker 5: were voting and that non felons were not allowed to

219
00:13:08,391 --> 00:13:11,231
Speaker 5: vote because they were allegedly felons.

220
00:13:12,271 --> 00:13:14,910
Speaker 1: One of the priorities of the investigation was to get

221
00:13:14,950 --> 00:13:19,030
Speaker 1: to the bottom of what's now known as Florida's felon purge.

222
00:13:19,070 --> 00:13:21,431
Speaker 1: In two thousand, it was illegal for anyone with a

223
00:13:21,430 --> 00:13:24,830
Speaker 1: felony conviction to vote in Florida, even after they had

224
00:13:24,871 --> 00:13:28,351
Speaker 1: served their time. So in two thousand, the state of

225
00:13:28,351 --> 00:13:31,710
Speaker 1: Florida commissioned a contractor to create a list of felons

226
00:13:31,751 --> 00:13:34,910
Speaker 1: living in the state and to ensure that they weren't

227
00:13:34,991 --> 00:13:39,271
Speaker 1: registered to vote. The list was deeply flawed and resulted

228
00:13:39,310 --> 00:13:41,990
Speaker 1: in more than a thousand legal voters being turned away

229
00:13:42,070 --> 00:13:45,111
Speaker 1: at the polls. The state office in charge of this

230
00:13:45,190 --> 00:13:47,670
Speaker 1: operation was one that you might be familiar with at

231
00:13:47,670 --> 00:13:48,111
Speaker 1: this point.

232
00:13:49,030 --> 00:13:52,990
Speaker 3: Catherine Harris, as Secretary of State, had direct responsibility under

233
00:13:52,991 --> 00:13:57,271
Speaker 3: the law for the elections, and she testified. I recall

234
00:13:57,310 --> 00:13:59,831
Speaker 3: her saying something like she was in a hurry and

235
00:13:59,871 --> 00:14:02,151
Speaker 3: didn't have much time because she was going to New

236
00:14:02,231 --> 00:14:05,551
Speaker 3: York on a shopping trip or some thing like that,

237
00:14:05,631 --> 00:14:08,190
Speaker 3: which I didn't understand why she told us that, but anyway,

238
00:14:09,111 --> 00:14:14,550
Speaker 3: she said that she had handed it over to her subordinates,

239
00:14:14,790 --> 00:14:19,230
Speaker 3: and we in particular asked her we had testimony from

240
00:14:19,271 --> 00:14:23,671
Speaker 3: a firm that her office had hired to purge clean

241
00:14:23,751 --> 00:14:26,351
Speaker 3: up the voting roles, to make sure that there were

242
00:14:26,391 --> 00:14:29,791
Speaker 3: in no extraneous names and it was all clear, and

243
00:14:31,151 --> 00:14:35,791
Speaker 3: to do it scientifically. And the head of this company,

244
00:14:35,991 --> 00:14:40,191
Speaker 3: which had many contracts with the government, testified that under

245
00:14:40,231 --> 00:14:44,431
Speaker 3: oath that they told her office that if they did

246
00:14:44,511 --> 00:14:47,071
Speaker 3: the procedure the way they had asked them to do it,

247
00:14:47,671 --> 00:14:51,711
Speaker 3: they would get a lot of false positives of people

248
00:14:51,751 --> 00:14:54,830
Speaker 3: who were actually registered, and asked if they should change

249
00:14:54,830 --> 00:14:58,711
Speaker 3: the procedure, and that Harris's office and her staff told

250
00:14:58,751 --> 00:15:00,431
Speaker 3: them to go ahead and do it the way they

251
00:15:00,471 --> 00:15:03,470
Speaker 3: had told them to do it, which they did, and

252
00:15:03,511 --> 00:15:07,791
Speaker 3: so the result was that there were people whose names

253
00:15:07,830 --> 00:15:11,271
Speaker 3: were confused with other people's names, people who had told

254
00:15:11,311 --> 00:15:15,871
Speaker 3: they weren't registered when they were. And one black minister

255
00:15:16,031 --> 00:15:19,351
Speaker 3: testified that when he went to vote and took his

256
00:15:19,351 --> 00:15:21,631
Speaker 3: family with him, he liked his kids to watch when

257
00:15:21,631 --> 00:15:25,511
Speaker 3: he went to vote, to get the experience of seeing

258
00:15:25,551 --> 00:15:27,951
Speaker 3: the polling place and all that. And he went in

259
00:15:28,031 --> 00:15:30,471
Speaker 3: and he'd voted before, and they told him in a

260
00:15:30,551 --> 00:15:34,031
Speaker 3: very loud voice where everyone could hear, that he was

261
00:15:34,071 --> 00:15:38,710
Speaker 3: a convicted felon. And he was outraged because he said,

262
00:15:38,951 --> 00:15:42,471
Speaker 3: not only aim, I'm not ever convicted of anything. I've

263
00:15:42,551 --> 00:15:46,031
Speaker 3: even been charged with anything, and the only time I've

264
00:15:46,071 --> 00:15:48,391
Speaker 3: been to the courthouse is when I served on a jury,

265
00:15:48,551 --> 00:15:52,231
Speaker 3: So I don't understand how I could be a convicted felon.

266
00:15:52,311 --> 00:15:55,111
Speaker 3: Could you call up somebody and find out, you know,

267
00:15:55,191 --> 00:15:57,431
Speaker 3: this is a mistake. And then they said they couldn't

268
00:15:57,471 --> 00:16:00,551
Speaker 3: get through to the office where they would check this,

269
00:16:00,710 --> 00:16:02,791
Speaker 3: so he ended up having to slink out of the

270
00:16:03,111 --> 00:16:07,351
Speaker 3: room with everybody looking at him as this convicted felon,

271
00:16:08,111 --> 00:16:10,431
Speaker 3: when in fact his name was on the roll and

272
00:16:10,471 --> 00:16:12,511
Speaker 3: he had been on the rolls. He said he felt

273
00:16:12,551 --> 00:16:15,830
Speaker 3: slingshotted back to slavery when they told him that he

274
00:16:15,871 --> 00:16:18,711
Speaker 3: was just and he was so disconsolate even by the

275
00:16:18,791 --> 00:16:21,031
Speaker 3: time he came to the hero and so it was

276
00:16:21,111 --> 00:16:24,911
Speaker 3: really sort of an outrageous sort of thing that happened.

277
00:16:25,231 --> 00:16:28,470
Speaker 6: Was it your sense at that point that the fellon

278
00:16:28,551 --> 00:16:31,591
Speaker 6: purge list was the primary driver of the problems you

279
00:16:31,590 --> 00:16:33,791
Speaker 6: were getting reports on election day?

280
00:16:34,071 --> 00:16:36,791
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was our understanding, or it seemed to me

281
00:16:37,391 --> 00:16:43,151
Speaker 3: that that list, that process was a major problem, that

282
00:16:43,191 --> 00:16:47,391
Speaker 3: there were any number of people who were not on

283
00:16:47,431 --> 00:16:51,951
Speaker 3: the rolls. The other major problem that compounded it was

284
00:16:52,231 --> 00:16:57,351
Speaker 3: that we found out in one county that the election

285
00:16:58,391 --> 00:17:02,231
Speaker 3: office state election office made sure that there were cell

286
00:17:02,271 --> 00:17:07,591
Speaker 3: phones given to some of the precincts, but there weren't

287
00:17:07,631 --> 00:17:10,671
Speaker 3: any given to the precincts where there were Latino voters

288
00:17:10,791 --> 00:17:11,391
Speaker 3: or whether they were.

289
00:17:11,351 --> 00:17:14,791
Speaker 6: Black voters, so that cell phones they could use to

290
00:17:15,150 --> 00:17:15,670
Speaker 6: the election.

291
00:17:15,830 --> 00:17:18,831
Speaker 3: That the volunteers who were there or who were hired

292
00:17:19,110 --> 00:17:21,511
Speaker 3: to conduct the election, the people who sit there at

293
00:17:21,551 --> 00:17:24,150
Speaker 3: the tables, you know, during election checking the rolls and

294
00:17:24,191 --> 00:17:26,871
Speaker 3: so on could call up if they had some problem,

295
00:17:27,390 --> 00:17:30,831
Speaker 3: and they didn't give cell phones. In some district. They

296
00:17:30,870 --> 00:17:34,270
Speaker 3: were very particular about who had a cell phone and

297
00:17:34,311 --> 00:17:36,230
Speaker 3: who could call up and who could not. And it

298
00:17:36,390 --> 00:17:39,231
Speaker 3: just turned out that the ones who couldn't call up

299
00:17:39,311 --> 00:17:41,231
Speaker 3: were the district where there were the problems.

300
00:17:41,511 --> 00:17:41,751
Speaker 4: Right.

301
00:17:42,311 --> 00:17:46,471
Speaker 6: Can you describe the reaction to your report and how

302
00:17:46,511 --> 00:17:48,791
Speaker 6: it worked politically, what its impact was politically.

303
00:17:49,390 --> 00:17:56,511
Speaker 3: Sometimes when you do reports in government agencies like the

304
00:17:56,551 --> 00:18:01,670
Speaker 3: Commission that are investigative and informative, the reports sort of

305
00:18:01,711 --> 00:18:04,191
Speaker 3: collect dust. You know, there might be a one day

306
00:18:04,231 --> 00:18:08,110
Speaker 3: half story about you did a report, but then after

307
00:18:08,150 --> 00:18:11,031
Speaker 3: that you know it served its purpose. It has been

308
00:18:11,071 --> 00:18:13,511
Speaker 3: a safety valve for people who want to talk about it,

309
00:18:13,590 --> 00:18:16,870
Speaker 3: to complain or do whatever, and you make your recommendations.

310
00:18:17,471 --> 00:18:19,551
Speaker 3: But I was determined when I was chair of the

311
00:18:19,551 --> 00:18:23,031
Speaker 3: Commission that we would only do reports that were important

312
00:18:23,071 --> 00:18:26,431
Speaker 3: and substantive, and that we would make sure that our

313
00:18:26,471 --> 00:18:30,911
Speaker 3: recommendations had some kind of teeth and were in conformity

314
00:18:30,951 --> 00:18:35,630
Speaker 3: with what we found, and that we would look toward

315
00:18:35,791 --> 00:18:38,670
Speaker 3: trying to get some kind of legislation help the Congress

316
00:18:39,590 --> 00:18:41,471
Speaker 3: and the President is trying to get some kind of

317
00:18:41,630 --> 00:18:45,390
Speaker 3: legislation to remedy whatever problems we found. Okay, so the

318
00:18:45,431 --> 00:18:50,150
Speaker 3: report came out, and it did not just gathered us

319
00:18:50,951 --> 00:18:55,791
Speaker 3: the Senate, thank Senator Dodd from Connecticut. Chris Dodd was

320
00:18:55,911 --> 00:18:58,430
Speaker 3: chair of the committee over there that considered it. I

321
00:18:58,511 --> 00:19:02,950
Speaker 3: remember Diane Feinstein was on the committee, a leading member

322
00:19:02,951 --> 00:19:06,750
Speaker 3: of it. That committee and its staff held hearings on

323
00:19:06,830 --> 00:19:12,630
Speaker 3: the report. We recommended that the federal government pass a

324
00:19:12,791 --> 00:19:17,631
Speaker 3: law which set up some kind of election commission and

325
00:19:17,751 --> 00:19:21,110
Speaker 3: in fact required the states to change and clean up

326
00:19:21,150 --> 00:19:24,910
Speaker 3: their procedures so that we wouldn't have this kind of

327
00:19:24,951 --> 00:19:28,510
Speaker 3: purge that took place from this company that ended up

328
00:19:28,551 --> 00:19:31,711
Speaker 3: calling people felons who weren't felons and all that sort

329
00:19:31,791 --> 00:19:34,910
Speaker 3: of stuff. And that the states looked to see that

330
00:19:35,630 --> 00:19:41,470
Speaker 3: polling places are accessible, and that the Congress and also

331
00:19:41,711 --> 00:19:46,150
Speaker 3: that discouraged the states from having police officers patrolling up

332
00:19:46,231 --> 00:19:48,990
Speaker 3: and down a highway patrolment on the roads leading to

333
00:19:49,031 --> 00:19:53,910
Speaker 3: the polling places, which sometimes intimidated people who wanted to

334
00:19:53,991 --> 00:19:58,111
Speaker 3: vote and didn't know what was happening. And that all

335
00:19:58,150 --> 00:20:01,710
Speaker 3: of these different problems ought to be addressed by legislation.

336
00:20:02,031 --> 00:20:06,830
Speaker 3: And I was pleased to see. The Congress passed some

337
00:20:06,991 --> 00:20:10,910
Speaker 3: legislation called Help America Vote Act up and the Election

338
00:20:11,031 --> 00:20:15,390
Speaker 3: Assistance Commission and appropriated a bunch of money. Sometimes Congress

339
00:20:15,511 --> 00:20:19,151
Speaker 3: authorizes things, but they don't appropriate any money to give

340
00:20:19,231 --> 00:20:23,190
Speaker 3: to the states in order for them to fix some

341
00:20:23,390 --> 00:20:24,511
Speaker 3: of these problems.

342
00:20:25,431 --> 00:20:29,431
Speaker 6: How effective was that legislation and the formation of that organization?

343
00:20:29,751 --> 00:20:33,390
Speaker 3: Well after the law passed and the money came and

344
00:20:33,471 --> 00:20:40,350
Speaker 3: people's attention went elsewhere. The Election Assistance Commission had no teeth.

345
00:20:40,630 --> 00:20:43,751
Speaker 3: I knew that to begin with, because the Constitution in

346
00:20:43,870 --> 00:20:47,830
Speaker 3: Article one leaves the way elections are conducted to the

347
00:20:47,870 --> 00:20:53,630
Speaker 3: states unless there is discrimination under the fourteenth Amendment, and

348
00:20:53,671 --> 00:20:56,110
Speaker 3: then you can file a civil rights complaint, which is

349
00:20:56,150 --> 00:21:00,351
Speaker 3: what we had been looking at. But the normal election process,

350
00:21:00,551 --> 00:21:04,071
Speaker 3: that is, how do they handle the roles and where

351
00:21:04,110 --> 00:21:07,351
Speaker 3: the polling play. All that stuff is under the control

352
00:21:07,390 --> 00:21:11,351
Speaker 3: of the states. So the Election Assistance Commission was not

353
00:21:11,431 --> 00:21:15,231
Speaker 3: given the authority to force the states to do anything,

354
00:21:15,390 --> 00:21:18,150
Speaker 3: because Congress couldn't give them the authority to do that.

355
00:21:18,590 --> 00:21:20,590
Speaker 3: But they thought that if they gave them the money

356
00:21:21,951 --> 00:21:25,151
Speaker 3: and then monitored how they spent the money, then indeed

357
00:21:25,231 --> 00:21:27,830
Speaker 3: they might change some of these procedures, and some of

358
00:21:27,870 --> 00:21:30,071
Speaker 3: the states did a lot of them did. They used

359
00:21:30,110 --> 00:21:33,830
Speaker 3: the money to buy new equipment and so you wouldn't

360
00:21:33,870 --> 00:21:38,031
Speaker 3: have all those chad things again and to use paper ballots,

361
00:21:38,071 --> 00:21:43,430
Speaker 3: and they some of them put out policies where they

362
00:21:43,471 --> 00:21:51,271
Speaker 3: wouldn't have an overriding police presidence around the roads to elections.

363
00:21:51,311 --> 00:21:55,071
Speaker 3: I mean, there were some things actually that actually got

364
00:21:55,150 --> 00:21:56,350
Speaker 3: changed as a result.

365
00:21:57,471 --> 00:21:59,231
Speaker 1: You sort of got up this with the answer you

366
00:21:59,271 --> 00:22:03,031
Speaker 1: just gave. But do you think there's the fact that

367
00:22:03,511 --> 00:22:06,950
Speaker 1: a federal national election is administered by the states in

368
00:22:06,951 --> 00:22:10,430
Speaker 1: the federal system that we have is inherently flawed. Do

369
00:22:10,471 --> 00:22:12,670
Speaker 1: you think it's possible for a national election to be

370
00:22:13,630 --> 00:22:17,031
Speaker 1: fair and fairly administered and equally administered across the country

371
00:22:17,271 --> 00:22:19,390
Speaker 1: when each state is in charge of their own operation.

372
00:22:20,350 --> 00:22:23,271
Speaker 3: Well, one answer to that question is that we've had

373
00:22:23,311 --> 00:22:30,311
Speaker 3: federal elections in which federal officials have involved in corrupt behavior.

374
00:22:30,671 --> 00:22:35,190
Speaker 3: So it doesn't necessarily mean that because they're state officials.

375
00:22:35,390 --> 00:22:40,951
Speaker 3: So that's one answer. Okay, I think that it's okay

376
00:22:41,271 --> 00:22:45,391
Speaker 3: to unless we amend the constitution, which is hard to do,

377
00:22:46,390 --> 00:22:51,311
Speaker 3: you can't change that procedure. I do think the answer

378
00:22:51,511 --> 00:22:57,710
Speaker 3: is for now for the Congress to give more powers

379
00:22:57,751 --> 00:23:02,870
Speaker 3: to the Election Assistance Commission to hold hearings which it

380
00:23:02,911 --> 00:23:07,870
Speaker 3: doesn't have, to call people in to monitor them, to

381
00:23:07,951 --> 00:23:12,391
Speaker 3: staff them, to show that some people weren't serious about it.

382
00:23:12,511 --> 00:23:14,991
Speaker 3: They didn't give their much staff to the commission that

383
00:23:15,191 --> 00:23:18,751
Speaker 3: commissioned it, didn't hardly had anybody to do anything. So

384
00:23:19,711 --> 00:23:23,311
Speaker 3: just putting some sunlight on what people were doing and

385
00:23:23,350 --> 00:23:26,671
Speaker 3: having enough staff to do that, I think would help

386
00:23:26,711 --> 00:23:30,110
Speaker 3: the process.

387
00:23:31,711 --> 00:23:34,991
Speaker 1: In twenty eighteen, Florida voters passed an amendment to the

388
00:23:34,991 --> 00:23:39,751
Speaker 1: state constitution restoring voting rights to approximately one million Floridians

389
00:23:39,751 --> 00:23:44,230
Speaker 1: with felonies on their records. The following year, Republican legislators

390
00:23:44,271 --> 00:23:47,551
Speaker 1: passed a law stating that people with felonies cannot cast

391
00:23:47,590 --> 00:23:50,751
Speaker 1: a ballot until they've paid off their outstanding fines and

392
00:23:50,791 --> 00:23:54,271
Speaker 1: court fees. As a result, most of the one million

393
00:23:54,271 --> 00:23:56,431
Speaker 1: people who regained the right to vote back in twenty

394
00:23:56,471 --> 00:24:08,031
Speaker 1: eighteen still can't actually do it. Fiasco BUSHVII Gore is

395
00:24:08,071 --> 00:24:11,350
Speaker 1: produced by Prolog Projects and district bed by Pushkin Industries.

396
00:24:11,870 --> 00:24:15,071
Speaker 1: The show is produced by Madeline kaplan Ulla Culpa, Andrew

397
00:24:15,110 --> 00:24:19,071
Speaker 1: Parsons and me Leon nafak We. Had additional editorial support

398
00:24:19,110 --> 00:24:22,670
Speaker 1: from Lisa Chase and Daniel Riley. Thanks for listening, We'll

399
00:24:22,671 --> 00:24:23,350
Speaker 1: see you next week.