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Speaker 1: Pushing. Well, y'all, y'all actually read the book. After man,

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Speaker 1: we don't play. We don't play. Here are some of

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Speaker 1: my best friends are my goodness, yeah, y'all not faking.

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Speaker 1: I'm Khalil Jibrad Muhammad and I'm Ben Austin. We're two

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Speaker 1: best friends, one black, one white. I'm a historian and

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Speaker 1: I'm a journalist. And this is some of my best

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Speaker 1: friends are. Some of my best friends are dot dot dot.

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Speaker 1: In this show, we wrestle with the challenges and the

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Speaker 1: absurdities of a deeply divided and unequal country. And this

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Speaker 1: week we're talking about the political history of interracial friendships.

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Speaker 1: Come on, man, our story. This is our story, political history,

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Speaker 1: all right. So a little while ago, we each got

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Speaker 1: a book in the mail. Yeah. This book is by

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Speaker 1: an author, a political scientist named Saladein Ambar. The books

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Speaker 1: titled Stars and Shadows the Politics of Interracial Friendship from

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Speaker 1: Jefferson to Obama, The whole Gamut of Black and White

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Speaker 1: Friendship in the History of the United States, Alpha to

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Speaker 1: the Omega. And you know, we get this book in

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Speaker 1: the mail and the first thing we think about is

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Speaker 1: are we in it? That's right? Yeah, because I mean

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Speaker 1: how could we not be. I mean, who's had an

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Speaker 1: interracial friendship for thirty six years that you know, you

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Speaker 1: at least weren't sleeping with the other person. I was

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Speaker 1: leafing through it. I was looking through it. And so

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Speaker 1: this book totally intrigued us. We start going to the

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Speaker 1: table of contests and looking what's in it and these

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Speaker 1: pairings of black and white friendships from the last two

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Speaker 1: hundred years. Yeah, it was. It was surprising. I mean,

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Speaker 1: first of all, I didn't even know about some of

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Speaker 1: these relationships. And then others which I knew about, like

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Speaker 1: Benjamin Bannaker, the famous black mathematician, had a correspondence with

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Speaker 1: Thomas Jefferson. It was like holding Thomas Jefferson's feet to

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Speaker 1: the fire, like, dude, you know, you got to show

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Speaker 1: up for black people. And then the most famous black

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Speaker 1: intellectual W. E. B. Du Boys is celebrating his relationship

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Speaker 1: with the most famous philosopher of the time, a guy

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Speaker 1: named William James. And I was like, hum, I was

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Speaker 1: a little surprised, And we were also dubious about this book.

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Speaker 1: I mean got to admit, you know that in many

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Speaker 1: of these cases, these people were not especially close friends,

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Speaker 1: and you know, so much of the premise of our show,

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Speaker 1: like here we have the show where we're interracial friends,

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Speaker 1: is that those kind of connections alone are not the

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Speaker 1: thing that are going to bring about structural change in

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Speaker 1: the country. That's right, that's right. So we had soliden

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Speaker 1: on the show. He goes by Dean because now he's

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Speaker 1: one of our friends as well, and you know, like

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Speaker 1: we had to talk to him about this, and one

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Speaker 1: of the things he points out that like, even when

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Speaker 1: there's not a lot of there there in the friendship,

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Speaker 1: what he's interested in is the politics of it, which

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Speaker 1: is in a way sort of like friendship as symbolism.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, And because that cuts against the grain

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Speaker 1: in many ways of our show, we're poking fun of that,

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Speaker 1: you know, like some of our best friends are. He's

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Speaker 1: making kind of a stronger argument that actually, in that

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Speaker 1: symbolism suggests the possibility of something of structural change, of

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Speaker 1: what he calls democratic possibilities. So let's talk to him. Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so let's talk to Dean. Heyy, welcome, welcome, We are

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Speaker 1: so excited, Professor Salah Dean, I'm bar is on. Some

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Speaker 1: of my best friends are then, yes, yes, this is

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Speaker 1: a conversation we have been dying to have about interracial friendships. Yep,

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Speaker 1: right up our alley. Yes, I appreciate you guys building

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Speaker 1: a podcast around this book, so thank you very much.

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Speaker 1: That was very kind of you. The heart of our

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Speaker 1: podcast is that we built this idea that friendships are

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Speaker 1: important but then not going to get us to the

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Speaker 1: promised land. I wanted us to start this conversation with

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Speaker 1: you being sort of talking about the inspiration for the book,

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Speaker 1: because I have to say, when I saw the title

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Speaker 1: and I skimmed the cover of the book before I

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Speaker 1: read it, I thought, no, I'm not convinced, Like, what's

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Speaker 1: this guy talking about like interracial friendships and like political

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Speaker 1: projects and something about democracy? So I'm packed that a

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Speaker 1: little bit. You know, what is this book really about?

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Speaker 1: I was a little bit concerned too, to be honest

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Speaker 1: with you. And you know, the last thing I wanted

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Speaker 1: was to write a book where people thought, well, we

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Speaker 1: could just friend our way out of white supremacy, right,

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Speaker 1: and there we go, hintred we could just you know,

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Speaker 1: just be friends. Why can't we get along? That was

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Speaker 1: the last thing I was hoping for. If you really

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Speaker 1: look at the two books I wrote Before this, I

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Speaker 1: wrote a book called Malcolm x At for Union, Politics

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Speaker 1: of Global Race Relations, and that book really spoke to

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Speaker 1: sort of my upbringing, my conversion Islam during my teen years,

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Speaker 1: and how that influenced me politically. And I was very

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Speaker 1: much drawn like a lot of people growing up in

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Speaker 1: New York were who were black. Anyway, to Malcolm's teachings,

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Speaker 1: you dropped some nuggets there. So so grew up in

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Speaker 1: New York, came of age sometime assuming in the late

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Speaker 1: eighties as a teenager when Malcolm was becoming a kind

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Speaker 1: of avatar for black resistance to the world drugs and

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Speaker 1: all that deal. Yeah, this is the era of public enemy. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, the power all of that man. And did

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Speaker 1: you have did you have white friends at the time

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Speaker 1: or people who were Latino or Asian? Was was your

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Speaker 1: crew integrated? Well yes and no. So it's you know,

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Speaker 1: I kind of lived a bit of a double life,

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Speaker 1: you know. I was about to say. The next book

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Speaker 1: I wrote was about Mario Cuomo for New York and

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Speaker 1: because he was because he's really a black dude. Maybe

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Speaker 1: maybe maybe, but you know, Mario and his Italian heritage

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Speaker 1: spoke to my own because my mom's family, you know,

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Speaker 1: comes from sicily her side. Um. And so you know,

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Speaker 1: the point about Malcolm was, I think I needed to reaffirm,

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Speaker 1: you know, who Malcolm meant to me, what my blackness

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Speaker 1: meant to me. But also moving on to you know, Mario,

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Speaker 1: I had to focus on or I was drawn to

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Speaker 1: focusing on that side of my heritage as well. And

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Speaker 1: then I think this is a kind of this book

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Speaker 1: is in many ways a kind of synthesis, you know,

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Speaker 1: of me dealing with both ends of uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: that sort of psychological backdrop to who I am as

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Speaker 1: a human being. And so I think I was grappling,

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Speaker 1: frankly with some of my own questions about identity and

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Speaker 1: who I am in the world. In Stars and Shadows,

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Speaker 1: the book that we read, you look at ten different friendships.

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Speaker 1: They're spanning two hundred years of American history, starting with

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Speaker 1: Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Bannaker and going all the way

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Speaker 1: to Obama and Biden. And on the way you've got

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Speaker 1: James Baldwin and Marlon Brando. You've got Angela Davis and

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Speaker 1: Gloria Steinham. You've got a lot of different relationships in there.

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Speaker 1: And don't forget the ultimate Black and Jewish relationship doctor

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Speaker 1: Martin Luther King Junior and Rabbi Joshua Heschel. Boy, how

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Speaker 1: could I forget on? Man? Yeah? Man? Right? You know,

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Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, the book is also a

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Speaker 1: history of America and a history of race and racism

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Speaker 1: told through these these relationships. I thought we could pause

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Speaker 1: for a second though, and like actually try to talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit more about what friendship really means in

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Speaker 1: this context, and to talk about like the terms we're using,

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Speaker 1: like what is an interracial friendship? And how are we

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Speaker 1: talking about it here? Well, you know, I've tried to

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Speaker 1: go back to, you know, the French revolutionary ideal of

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Speaker 1: Herne Tay because I think unlike ordinary you know, daily

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Speaker 1: friendship among ordinary citizens, for Tony Tay had political implications.

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Speaker 1: You know, Benjamin Bannaker had a lot of white friends.

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Speaker 1: All his friends were white. He was a free black

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Speaker 1: man in rural Maryland. He was a farmer, and he

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Speaker 1: was surrounded by whites and they were his friends and

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Speaker 1: he got along, but you know, he was not involved

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Speaker 1: in a political project with them. And I think what

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Speaker 1: happened with Jefferson and he is that he got involved

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Speaker 1: in a political project. So Dean, what you mean by

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Speaker 1: political project is that Jefferson had written a racist book

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Speaker 1: called Notes on the State of Virginia that essentially said

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Speaker 1: black people were fundamentally inferior to white people. And here

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Speaker 1: Bannaker is, who's helped build the nation's capital and is

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Speaker 1: now sending Jefferson and almanac, and he's like, dude, if

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Speaker 1: we're inferior, how can I be this incredible scientist and mathematician.

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Speaker 1: That's right. In other words, he wanted to use an

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Speaker 1: attempted friendship, in his case, a connection he was trying

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Speaker 1: to make, you know, signing his letter using the language

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Speaker 1: of my brethren, and you know, your humble, obedient servant,

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Speaker 1: Jefferson responds back to him. He's using a kind of

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Speaker 1: breakthrough of social relations to make a political statement. And

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Speaker 1: I think these ten case studies are about taking with

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Speaker 1: what one has on a private level. And I think

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Speaker 1: maybe you guys can speak to this better than most.

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Speaker 1: You had your friendship, it was what it was. But

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Speaker 1: now when when it's a podcast becomes part of a

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Speaker 1: public form, man, you know, it involves something a little heavier.

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Speaker 1: It becomes it's not just you know, two guys getting

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Speaker 1: bagels or hanging out or listening to music or whatever

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Speaker 1: y'all do. Yeah, well, you definitely nailed us on the

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Speaker 1: bagels and the music that is a hangout. Come on

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Speaker 1: man then used to deliver bagels. But let's let's let's

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Speaker 1: talk about this work because you you know, in some ways,

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Speaker 1: i'm you know, it's interesting to about why these relationships

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Speaker 1: are so difficult in America. And you know, you cite

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Speaker 1: this study during the Obama years that you said, three

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Speaker 1: quarters of white people don't have a black friend, and

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Speaker 1: two thirds of black people don't have a white friend,

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Speaker 1: and that is the state of America. And even even

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Speaker 1: your book's title Stars and Shadows, it comes from Mark

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Speaker 1: Twain's Huckleberry Finn. Right, Huck and Jim are on the

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Speaker 1: raft and there it's nighttime and they look up and

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Speaker 1: all they have to navigate by our stars and shadows.

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Speaker 1: And so you think about Huck and Jim on the raft,

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Speaker 1: about their friendship and they're bond, you could call it

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Speaker 1: if it's not a friendship, but that it exists really

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Speaker 1: only on the raft and the raft of this idea

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Speaker 1: of being, you know, between two shores of not being

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Speaker 1: in America, of being this liminal space, and that's really

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Speaker 1: the only realm in which they can have this connection. Man,

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Speaker 1: that was deep. You see us the word liminal? Man,

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Speaker 1: You know, I han't heard uson's grad school. Man. So

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Speaker 1: that's I'm here with two professors. I'm trying to like

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Speaker 1: punch above my weight. So yeah, man, of course you're

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Speaker 1: punching outside your way class, but we're gonna give you

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Speaker 1: a chance to catch up with us. Look, we've been

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Speaker 1: in this relationship for thirty five years, and I'm beginning

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Speaker 1: to wonder are we even in an interracial relationship or friendship?

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Speaker 1: What the hell's going on? So when we come back

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Speaker 1: from the break, we're gonna actually nail this thing down.

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Speaker 1: What is an interracial friendship? Welcome back to some of

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Speaker 1: my best friends are We're talking with saladein Ambar, who

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Speaker 1: goes by Dean. So, Dean, what is an interracial friendship?

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Speaker 1: Let's define this. I think, you know, these interracial friendships

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Speaker 1: carry great possibilities in part because they involve, you know,

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Speaker 1: a kind of spiritual dimension to life, because they involved

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Speaker 1: matters of the heart, you know. And I think that

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Speaker 1: because because of what they overcome, I mean, why would

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Speaker 1: that be different than another relationship? Well, I think back

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Speaker 1: to your point about we're in America, you know, UM,

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Speaker 1: and and pretty much any multi racial society that has

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Speaker 1: and all of them have been tanked, if not driven

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Speaker 1: by white supremacy these several hundred years now. UM, you know,

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Speaker 1: place a premium on um, you know, following suit with

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Speaker 1: what is alike rather than what is different. There's a

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Speaker 1: kind of stress and inherent stress, I would say, involved

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Speaker 1: in these kinds of relationships and connections that don't take

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Speaker 1: place in the same way that they do in ordinary friendships,

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Speaker 1: which it can be stress stressful enough, you know, if

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Speaker 1: people are being truly honest with themselves. Well, this is

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Speaker 1: something that I want to just take a moment to

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Speaker 1: discuss a bit further. And that is in your ten

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Speaker 1: case studies. And this is not a criticism so much

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Speaker 1: as an observation. Man, most of these cats weren't actually friends. Yeah, Like,

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Speaker 1: what would you call it if it's a well, I

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Speaker 1: would call it a relationship, right, because I can think

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Speaker 1: of a thousand different scenarios, particularly in my professional work,

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Speaker 1: where I am connected to someone and that through that

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Speaker 1: connection we make something happen, and it might even be

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Speaker 1: something of some political important to happen, but I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: necessarily call those folks friends. And I'm curious for you,

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Speaker 1: how important was it that people see these as friendships

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Speaker 1: rather than as connections, relationships somewhat even transactional. It's a

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Speaker 1: great point. I think the key to is the politics

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Speaker 1: of inter racial friendship. So you take two boys and

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Speaker 1: William James at Harvard. You know, these are not people

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Speaker 1: who are hanging out. They're not getting the bagels and

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Speaker 1: go and you know, going to the jazz spot, right

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Speaker 1: And I think this is to your point, Khalila, you know,

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Speaker 1: the authenticity and depth of the friendships if they were

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Speaker 1: friends at all, it's in ordinary terms, we would not

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Speaker 1: describe the boys and James as friends. But the boys

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Speaker 1: uses that language. He goes out of his way to

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Speaker 1: call James my friend. He you know, extols his relationship

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Speaker 1: and connection with him for many years because in part,

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Speaker 1: the boys has a political project in mind here. He

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Speaker 1: first of all, he wants to connect himself and black

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Speaker 1: intellect to the greatness that James represented. So that's an important,

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Speaker 1: you know, project of his own right there. He wants

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Speaker 1: to situate himself as a social equal with James, an

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Speaker 1: intellectual equal. With James, but also um by extension in

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Speaker 1: proxy all other black folk in the country. I think

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Speaker 1: that's his political project, and he goes out of his

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Speaker 1: way to talk about James in those terms. James does

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Speaker 1: not call the boys his friend ever. He has a

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Speaker 1: letter that he just says, some mulatto grad student I have.

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Speaker 1: He writes a letter to his brother. That's right, and

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Speaker 1: so well, y'all, y'all actually read the book. We don't play.

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Speaker 1: We don't know. Some of my best friends are my goodness. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'll not faking it. You're appreciate it. So but I

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Speaker 1: think that's the point though. Okay, can we just talk

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Speaker 1: for a minute about the friendship between the writer James

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Speaker 1: Baldwin and the actor Marlon Brando. I could have been somebody.

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Speaker 1: I could have been a contender, Yes, Marlon Brando and

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Speaker 1: James Baldwin probably was the most intimate, you know, meaningful

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Speaker 1: relationship on a personal level that you know, most likely lovers,

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Speaker 1: and they were friends with benefits. Absolutely, Yeah, that was

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Speaker 1: a very powerful and real connection and friendship. You know,

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Speaker 1: You're right. Most of these would not be described conventionally

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Speaker 1: as friendships. These are not always people socially hanging out,

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Speaker 1: but all of them. I think the key is that

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Speaker 1: all of them have some of the parties, or if not,

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Speaker 1: both of them make the effort to use their friendship,

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Speaker 1: however lightly regarded it was, or held by either party,

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Speaker 1: to make some kind of democratic statement. Yeah, I got

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Speaker 1: a question for you, Khalil about that. You know, in

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Speaker 1: a way, that's a definition of not a friendship, like

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Speaker 1: if there's a use value to it. And it makes

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Speaker 1: me think about like after George Floyd and you know,

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Speaker 1: all the sort of concern that white people had in America,

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Speaker 1: they're thinking about their white privilege. It was really a

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Speaker 1: reckoning and and you know, this sort of permeated much

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Speaker 1: of the culture. I don't know if that was like,

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Speaker 1: that's not friendship, or maybe is that the moving toward

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Speaker 1: I think that what's interesting about how Dean just explained

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Speaker 1: this is there's something in the performance of the reaching

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Speaker 1: out in the midst of George Floyd that creates the

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Speaker 1: possibility for something more substantial. Hey, you're someone I know.

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Speaker 1: Can we talk about this as friends might? And so

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Speaker 1: the relationships may be superficial, but it's the invitation for

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Speaker 1: a deeper reflection that I think that Dean, you would say,

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Speaker 1: creates quote unquote democratic possibilities. I think so. Look, stagecraft

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Speaker 1: is important in politics. It's very important in a multiracial democracy.

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Speaker 1: And stagecraft, you mean the appearance of something as a

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Speaker 1: public good or a positive or a relationship. Even when

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Speaker 1: Lincoln calls out to Douglas in the White House, when

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Speaker 1: the guards in that their third meeting after the second

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Speaker 1: inaugural address, when they're escorting Douglas out of the White House,

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Speaker 1: Lincoln calls out to him, there's my friend Douglas. Now

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Speaker 1: they were not homies. They had two meetings prior to that,

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Speaker 1: two meetings and a letter. That's it. But you know,

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Speaker 1: when Lincoln calls out, there's my friend Douglas. That's for

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Speaker 1: the white guards. That's for the white attendees at the

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Speaker 1: inaugural ceremony and ball. That's for white America. Look, y'all,

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Speaker 1: when this thing is over, when this war ends, we

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Speaker 1: just can't, you know, have a de facto in name

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Speaker 1: only kind of citizenship for these folks. We have to

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Speaker 1: be their friends and that stagecraft. But we need it,

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Speaker 1: you know, yeah, yeah, you need it. That story reminds

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Speaker 1: me of this powerful New York leader introducing me to

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Speaker 1: a bunch of very wealthy white people, and in a

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Speaker 1: way that was like Khalil's demand, Like I came to

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Speaker 1: despise the term because this, like this euphemism of like

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Speaker 1: he's a smart, articulate black person as you the man,

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Speaker 1: or he's the man. Also felt like it not only

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Speaker 1: cheapened me as kind of a set piece in a

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Speaker 1: stage production, but also was not for my benefit. It

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Speaker 1: didn't actually credential me in any way. It just it

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Speaker 1: just said he's okay, Like he's okay in this space. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if we're talking about a low end project or not

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Speaker 1: even a personal project or something that is connected to

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Speaker 1: self affirmation or being seen as cool, this is hard work.

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Speaker 1: This is you know, um, the tendency to fall over

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Speaker 1: into the cheap and the profane and the silly with respect.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like American popular culture. Yeah, it's right there,

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Speaker 1: right there. You know. Someone asked me, well, it's like

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Speaker 1: Kanye and Trump, right well exactly. I mean, someone said,

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Speaker 1: well you should do Beyonce and what if Paul Trow.

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Speaker 1: I was like, I don't know if that's the book

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about here, but you know, so when we

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Speaker 1: come back, we're going to talk about two more of

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Speaker 1: these high profile interracial friendships, two of them in which

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Speaker 1: the symbolism, you know it matters in a different kind

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Speaker 1: of way. Yeah, yeah, like breaking the color barrier. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: welcome back to some of my best friends. Are we

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Speaker 1: are talking about interracial friendships, and we are going to

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Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties for a very special friendship. Who are

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Speaker 1: your favorite people? Well, who are favorite person? I love

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Speaker 1: her as a person as I think she's And that's

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Speaker 1: Ella Fitzgerald. Wow, that's Marilyn Monroe. Given big ups to

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Speaker 1: Ella Fitzgerald. That's the friendship we want to talk about next.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us about that story of like why

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Speaker 1: why it appealed to you? Well? What went down is

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Speaker 1: that Marilyn Monroe and Ella Fitzgerald had a kind of

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Speaker 1: casual friendship and connection. You know, it was not a

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Speaker 1: you know, a kind of acquaintance ship, you know, boring

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Speaker 1: on a friendship. And Marilyn Monroe is like every other

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Speaker 1: would be singer patterning herself off of Ella Fitzgerald. Why

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Speaker 1: wouldn't you. She's listening to tons of her music, trying

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Speaker 1: records and trying to learn, you know, her secrets. So

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Speaker 1: she has profound respect for for Ella, and ultimately she

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Speaker 1: hears that Ella will not be is not being booked

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Speaker 1: by Charlie Morrison, the owner of this mccambo club in Hollywood.

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Speaker 1: And the reason why she's not being booked is not

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Speaker 1: because she's black. It's because she's not sexy enough for

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Speaker 1: Charlie and for the white patrons who attend the Macombo Club.

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Speaker 1: They've had you know, the earth, the kids, and other

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Speaker 1: black women perform who fit the bill. So the point

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Speaker 1: is that, you know, so much of what transpires in

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Speaker 1: terms of how it's interpreted, is that somehow Marilyn uses

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Speaker 1: her stature to get Ella into the club because she

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Speaker 1: was opposed to racism. Well, Marilyn knew why she wasn't

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Speaker 1: being admitted into the club. It wasn't, again a color barrier.

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Speaker 1: It was a kind of you know, stereotype of women

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Speaker 1: and the kinds of women who should be allowed to

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Speaker 1: perform based on their looks. So you know, Marilyn does

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Speaker 1: stick her neck out. She does, you know, say hey,

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Speaker 1: you know, if you let Ella into the club, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to use my cache to have and tell all

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Speaker 1: my Hollywood friends to start to the Macombo. And right

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Speaker 1: away this gets a ton of publicity, like it's all

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Speaker 1: in the news, like Marilyn Monroe, and she's the actor,

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Speaker 1: and Fitzgerald is the acted upon like Merl Monroe is

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Speaker 1: kind of this white savior who gets talked about in

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Speaker 1: this way of getting her this gig and crossing the

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Speaker 1: color line. Yes, and you know, it becomes a white

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Speaker 1: savior story. I mean, I think I include a bunch

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Speaker 1: of headlines and Ella Saved by Maryland. Literally, these are

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Speaker 1: some of the kinds of titles for stories that go on.

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Speaker 1: But it doesn't make Marilyn Monroe any less courageous. And

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Speaker 1: what she did, she did stick her neck out of

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Speaker 1: another other people, other white performers would not have done

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Speaker 1: that and did not do what she did. So I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, we can't devalue her her politics, which were

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Speaker 1: pretty extraordinary for the time, and often undervalue because of

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00:23:04,356 --> 00:23:08,476
Speaker 1: her beauty and her presentation and her esthetic by the

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00:23:08,556 --> 00:23:11,636
Speaker 1: same tope, And I think that story is interesting to

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Speaker 1: me because of what it says about us, you know today,

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Speaker 1: right right, yeah, Yeah, that's one of the things that

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Speaker 1: you write about in the story, and that is that

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Speaker 1: there are children's books being written today published in twenty twenty.

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Speaker 1: You say that highlight this relationship, and of course there's

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Speaker 1: been an explosion of books since George Floyd. This isn't

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Speaker 1: one of the well, a couple of them that I

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Speaker 1: looked at weren't necessarily post Floyd, but they were part

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Speaker 1: of a moment of people searching for some example, some representation,

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Speaker 1: something symbolic. Yeah, yeah, I mean it really speaks to

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Speaker 1: why these stories are so appealing, even if there's not

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00:23:49,316 --> 00:23:52,156
Speaker 1: a lot there, Like this is really about the idea

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00:23:52,156 --> 00:23:54,076
Speaker 1: of it more than the substance, and in a way,

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00:23:54,116 --> 00:23:56,836
Speaker 1: the substance is not as important as what, like, what

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00:23:56,916 --> 00:24:00,396
Speaker 1: we're trying to pull through. It says that we want,

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Speaker 1: you know, to be validated for knowing the story as

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00:24:03,556 --> 00:24:05,636
Speaker 1: much as for the actual story. Right. We don't care

401
00:24:05,676 --> 00:24:07,516
Speaker 1: if this if we get the story right, we want

402
00:24:07,516 --> 00:24:09,396
Speaker 1: to you know, frame the story in a certain way

403
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Speaker 1: that we can be validated. And it's okay to know that,

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00:24:13,316 --> 00:24:16,756
Speaker 1: you know, Marilyn didn't save Ella. Her career was pretty

405
00:24:16,796 --> 00:24:18,756
Speaker 1: off the hook at that point. She was doing great,

406
00:24:18,876 --> 00:24:21,116
Speaker 1: you know, that's right. Yeah, I was doing just great.

407
00:24:21,156 --> 00:24:23,036
Speaker 1: They both were, but you know, she didn't get saved.

408
00:24:23,196 --> 00:24:25,236
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, she's playing plenty of other venues,

409
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Speaker 1: and she was doing all right. I was thinking about

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00:24:27,916 --> 00:24:32,356
Speaker 1: why Ella Fitzgerald and Marilyn Monroe's story is so alluring

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Speaker 1: for us today and maybe especially for white people, you know,

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Speaker 1: at a time when we're thinking a lot about being

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Speaker 1: fair and anti racist. And one of the things that

414
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Speaker 1: struck me is that it didn't really like what Marilyn

415
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Speaker 1: Monroe did. If we want to emulate that it doesn't

416
00:24:50,556 --> 00:24:53,436
Speaker 1: demand very much of us, then I hadn't thought about it,

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00:24:53,596 --> 00:24:56,156
Speaker 1: and quite as stark a term as you just describe.

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Speaker 1: But it also means that it's so much easier to

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Speaker 1: actually do the kind of work that people like Marylyn did.

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Speaker 1: In this instance of saying, hey, look out for the singer.

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Speaker 1: She's amazing and I'm not coming back until you do,

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00:25:09,436 --> 00:25:15,716
Speaker 1: the low hanging fruit almost makes the condemnation of the

423
00:25:15,836 --> 00:25:20,916
Speaker 1: slow pace of anti racist change even more revealing, Like

424
00:25:21,036 --> 00:25:23,756
Speaker 1: it in so many of these instances, it didn't even

425
00:25:23,796 --> 00:25:27,956
Speaker 1: demand much for someone to actually do something meaningful to

426
00:25:27,996 --> 00:25:36,236
Speaker 1: create the space of possibility. All right, So let's talk

427
00:25:36,236 --> 00:25:40,516
Speaker 1: about one more inter racial friendship, perhaps the most consequential

428
00:25:41,076 --> 00:25:45,356
Speaker 1: of all time. President Barack Obama and Vice President Joe

429
00:25:45,396 --> 00:25:49,716
Speaker 1: Biden man the most important of all time. Wow, So

430
00:25:49,836 --> 00:25:52,756
Speaker 1: we want to know give us your take on these guys.

431
00:25:52,916 --> 00:25:54,836
Speaker 1: Was this a hard chapter to write? I mean, how

432
00:25:54,876 --> 00:25:58,436
Speaker 1: were you thinking about putting them into this story? How

433
00:25:58,516 --> 00:26:02,636
Speaker 1: did you want the reader to come away taking something

434
00:26:02,636 --> 00:26:06,956
Speaker 1: substantive about Barack Obama's the first black president and Joe

435
00:26:06,956 --> 00:26:10,076
Speaker 1: Biden as his vice president. You know that moment when

436
00:26:10,076 --> 00:26:14,196
Speaker 1: Barack Obama puts that Presidential Medal of Freedom around you know,

437
00:26:14,476 --> 00:26:18,796
Speaker 1: Joe Biden's neck, and Biden, you know, is holding can't

438
00:26:18,796 --> 00:26:22,396
Speaker 1: hold back the tears. That's a powerful moment, in part

439
00:26:22,436 --> 00:26:26,916
Speaker 1: because it says, you know, what's possible, and also I

440
00:26:26,956 --> 00:26:30,476
Speaker 1: think what's fearful for many white Americans? You know, I

441
00:26:30,476 --> 00:26:35,436
Speaker 1: don't know who fear the loss of them? You know,

442
00:26:35,516 --> 00:26:38,876
Speaker 1: rooted in demographic change, The idea that we're going to

443
00:26:38,956 --> 00:26:42,316
Speaker 1: have a sequence or series of black or multiracial presidents,

444
00:26:42,836 --> 00:26:47,956
Speaker 1: you know, leaders, etc. Conferring these honors is somewhat problematic

445
00:26:47,996 --> 00:26:50,556
Speaker 1: to them. So I think that that was that was

446
00:26:50,836 --> 00:26:54,036
Speaker 1: one of the critical elements to draw the contrast to

447
00:26:54,076 --> 00:26:56,996
Speaker 1: what had come before, all right, and so digging into

448
00:26:57,036 --> 00:27:01,796
Speaker 1: the actual substance of Joe Biden's and Barack Obama's friendship.

449
00:27:02,076 --> 00:27:03,876
Speaker 1: You know, it starts out kind of rocky. I mean

450
00:27:03,876 --> 00:27:06,676
Speaker 1: you you cite this moment in the Senate when Barack

451
00:27:06,676 --> 00:27:09,436
Speaker 1: Obama is listening to Joe Biden like go on and on,

452
00:27:09,476 --> 00:27:12,036
Speaker 1: and he's he's talking about how bored he is. And

453
00:27:12,116 --> 00:27:15,756
Speaker 1: when Biden drops out of the president election in two

454
00:27:15,796 --> 00:27:18,396
Speaker 1: thousand and eight, he has one of these lines which

455
00:27:18,476 --> 00:27:21,676
Speaker 1: is like, exactly what you fear, like your white friend

456
00:27:21,796 --> 00:27:24,076
Speaker 1: or you're just waiting for them to say something offensive.

457
00:27:24,476 --> 00:27:30,516
Speaker 1: First short of main stream African American who is articulate

458
00:27:30,556 --> 00:27:36,116
Speaker 1: and bright and clean and my looking guy, man, Joe,

459
00:27:36,556 --> 00:27:39,996
Speaker 1: I mean you said the first sort of mainstream African

460
00:27:40,036 --> 00:27:45,796
Speaker 1: American who is articulate and bright and damn clean. Come on, man,

461
00:27:47,476 --> 00:27:50,516
Speaker 1: I actually love it. I'm gonna tell you why. Well,

462
00:27:50,516 --> 00:27:54,436
Speaker 1: this is you know, he's bright and clean, uh and

463
00:27:54,676 --> 00:28:01,516
Speaker 1: new uh inarticulate, inarticulate. It's the clean that is like

464
00:28:03,476 --> 00:28:10,876
Speaker 1: he's really I know, I know he's not as using

465
00:28:10,916 --> 00:28:14,396
Speaker 1: the butters and he's got all the butters. You know,

466
00:28:14,436 --> 00:28:20,116
Speaker 1: he's looking clean. Biden's language there, I'm not surprised by.

467
00:28:20,276 --> 00:28:24,156
Speaker 1: I'm not necessarily even hurt by. I understand where it

468
00:28:24,196 --> 00:28:26,116
Speaker 1: comes from. And I look at Biden's life in the

469
00:28:26,196 --> 00:28:28,596
Speaker 1: arc of his political life and personality and who he

470
00:28:28,716 --> 00:28:31,116
Speaker 1: is in the world, who he's been, And I'm also

471
00:28:31,236 --> 00:28:34,276
Speaker 1: not struck in a way by it, because I think

472
00:28:34,316 --> 00:28:37,196
Speaker 1: Biden it just comes from who he is as a

473
00:28:37,316 --> 00:28:39,396
Speaker 1: what is he close to eighty year old white man

474
00:28:39,556 --> 00:28:43,236
Speaker 1: now in life? And I'm you know, I'm not excusing it.

475
00:28:43,276 --> 00:28:47,076
Speaker 1: I'm saying I understand it, and I'm not informed by

476
00:28:47,116 --> 00:28:49,276
Speaker 1: it in the same way I would be. But then

477
00:28:49,356 --> 00:28:53,476
Speaker 1: I hear um other political leaders speak, you know, who

478
00:28:53,476 --> 00:28:55,956
Speaker 1: are younger, who are you know whose heart is not

479
00:28:55,996 --> 00:28:57,836
Speaker 1: in the right place. You're also deemed pointing to like

480
00:28:58,396 --> 00:29:00,996
Speaker 1: the dynamic and a lot of these friendships. And I'm

481
00:29:01,036 --> 00:29:04,076
Speaker 1: speaking from the white side here, but you know, you're

482
00:29:04,076 --> 00:29:07,596
Speaker 1: we're friends up to an extent, and you're you're imagining,

483
00:29:07,636 --> 00:29:10,276
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, he's gonna say something fucked up or

484
00:29:10,316 --> 00:29:11,996
Speaker 1: you know, you know, that's just who he is. But

485
00:29:12,116 --> 00:29:14,196
Speaker 1: apart from that, he's cool. And so what you just

486
00:29:14,196 --> 00:29:16,556
Speaker 1: said about Biden, of like, I know where he comes from,

487
00:29:16,596 --> 00:29:18,996
Speaker 1: I know all that stuff. It is exactly the kind

488
00:29:19,036 --> 00:29:22,836
Speaker 1: of limits on full friendship that we often fear in

489
00:29:22,516 --> 00:29:26,196
Speaker 1: these in these dynamics. Yes, I mean, damn, it can't

490
00:29:26,196 --> 00:29:28,676
Speaker 1: just be mister Rogers and John Brown as the only

491
00:29:28,676 --> 00:29:31,716
Speaker 1: white people in American political history. It'd be a narrow

492
00:29:31,756 --> 00:29:34,916
Speaker 1: list of folks you could really get with if if

493
00:29:34,956 --> 00:29:37,996
Speaker 1: you set the bar where it really should be. Frankly,

494
00:29:38,556 --> 00:29:43,156
Speaker 1: you know, I take into account the difficulty factor of

495
00:29:43,196 --> 00:29:45,756
Speaker 1: being a white person living in a white supremacist society,

496
00:29:45,756 --> 00:29:48,356
Speaker 1: who's told you all these wonderful things about you, etc.

497
00:29:49,036 --> 00:29:52,076
Speaker 1: I have a degree of difficulty measure that I'm applying

498
00:29:52,116 --> 00:29:54,396
Speaker 1: to who you are as a human being. In the

499
00:29:54,436 --> 00:29:57,756
Speaker 1: same way that I think black folks deserve credit for

500
00:29:57,876 --> 00:30:00,836
Speaker 1: surviving and thriving. You're greating us on a curve what

501
00:30:00,876 --> 00:30:04,156
Speaker 1: you're saying a little bit, A little bit relatives and

502
00:30:04,236 --> 00:30:07,796
Speaker 1: all kind of folk included, Yes, a little bit. Sure. Well.

503
00:30:07,796 --> 00:30:10,276
Speaker 1: That's the thing that I think is interesting about your

504
00:30:10,276 --> 00:30:15,556
Speaker 1: discussion of Barack and Joe, because you use the term

505
00:30:15,836 --> 00:30:20,236
Speaker 1: in this chapter about performance art, and you talk about

506
00:30:20,276 --> 00:30:22,996
Speaker 1: how much it mattered. I mean, there's this famous scene

507
00:30:23,076 --> 00:30:28,436
Speaker 1: of President Obama and Vice President Biden walking or jogging

508
00:30:28,596 --> 00:30:30,996
Speaker 1: at the White House with both of their jackets off,

509
00:30:31,036 --> 00:30:34,356
Speaker 1: and you know, they're both looking vigorous and strong, and

510
00:30:34,436 --> 00:30:41,556
Speaker 1: yet submerged underneath this genuine working relationship that you know,

511
00:30:41,676 --> 00:30:46,156
Speaker 1: by all accounts over eight years was productive. Is this

512
00:30:46,636 --> 00:30:51,036
Speaker 1: kind of tortured underbelly of like Joe Biden's own history

513
00:30:51,116 --> 00:30:56,356
Speaker 1: from anti bussing to the crime Bill to his role

514
00:30:56,436 --> 00:30:58,916
Speaker 1: in Anita Hill. And I'm not here to relitigate so

515
00:30:59,036 --> 00:31:03,076
Speaker 1: much as to say, there's that tension between what you

516
00:31:03,236 --> 00:31:07,236
Speaker 1: so aptly described as this shared history of loss between

517
00:31:07,276 --> 00:31:09,836
Speaker 1: the two of them and this genuine relation relationship. And

518
00:31:09,916 --> 00:31:12,396
Speaker 1: yet at what costs because it seems like all that

519
00:31:12,436 --> 00:31:18,636
Speaker 1: other stuff wasn't actually part of their legislative agenda. Right, No,

520
00:31:18,916 --> 00:31:23,036
Speaker 1: And look, Barack Obama himself, with all of his blackness,

521
00:31:24,156 --> 00:31:27,636
Speaker 1: is still you know, again to a certain percentage of

522
00:31:27,996 --> 00:31:32,116
Speaker 1: black political followers, thinkers, you know, problematic in his own

523
00:31:32,156 --> 00:31:33,996
Speaker 1: way from the standpoint of what he was able to

524
00:31:34,156 --> 00:31:37,516
Speaker 1: or not able to accomplish in his presidency visa v

525
00:31:37,996 --> 00:31:42,516
Speaker 1: You know, black folks, teaching our sons to treat women

526
00:31:42,596 --> 00:31:47,436
Speaker 1: with respect and to realize responsibility does not end at

527
00:31:47,476 --> 00:31:52,316
Speaker 1: conception that what makes them a man does not the

528
00:31:52,316 --> 00:31:55,236
Speaker 1: ability to have a child, but to raise one. You know,

529
00:31:55,316 --> 00:31:57,596
Speaker 1: every day in this in the United States, there are

530
00:31:58,036 --> 00:31:59,716
Speaker 1: you know, there's a certain percentage black folks who go

531
00:31:59,716 --> 00:32:02,916
Speaker 1: to the office every day. Maybe they're supervised, they supervised,

532
00:32:03,036 --> 00:32:06,356
Speaker 1: you know, white workers who who have to take orders

533
00:32:06,356 --> 00:32:08,636
Speaker 1: from them, and they you know, and that's its own

534
00:32:08,716 --> 00:32:11,836
Speaker 1: kind of head all at times for them. And here

535
00:32:12,516 --> 00:32:16,596
Speaker 1: was Joe Biden, who didn't say boo, you know, to

536
00:32:17,236 --> 00:32:21,396
Speaker 1: do anything really to hurt Obama. He never stabbed Obama

537
00:32:21,396 --> 00:32:23,596
Speaker 1: in the back. He was loyal as the day as long,

538
00:32:23,676 --> 00:32:27,076
Speaker 1: loyal as a dog, you know, And and black folk

539
00:32:27,196 --> 00:32:30,236
Speaker 1: looked at that, particularly the older you were and are

540
00:32:30,316 --> 00:32:33,836
Speaker 1: as an African American in this country, that relationship resonated

541
00:32:33,836 --> 00:32:36,556
Speaker 1: with you big time because you remember what it was

542
00:32:36,636 --> 00:32:39,196
Speaker 1: like to go into a workplace and be the only

543
00:32:39,236 --> 00:32:42,316
Speaker 1: one and then have and maybe be the first of

544
00:32:42,356 --> 00:32:46,676
Speaker 1: your generation to have leadership roles where where whites were,

545
00:32:46,716 --> 00:32:51,076
Speaker 1: you know, um, your subordinates. And to see Biden, you know,

546
00:32:51,716 --> 00:32:55,556
Speaker 1: act gracefully towards Obama and never throw him under the bus.

547
00:32:55,956 --> 00:32:58,636
Speaker 1: So I think those things matter to black folk. Hey,

548
00:32:58,676 --> 00:33:02,196
Speaker 1: before we go, so Khalil and I are an interracial friendship.

549
00:33:02,636 --> 00:33:04,596
Speaker 1: Do you have any questions for us? You know, as

550
00:33:04,636 --> 00:33:07,756
Speaker 1: far as a question for you guys, I think, um,

551
00:33:08,196 --> 00:33:11,436
Speaker 1: when one is maybe a about your own relationship and

552
00:33:11,876 --> 00:33:15,956
Speaker 1: having begun this podcast, has it changed the way you've

553
00:33:15,956 --> 00:33:19,436
Speaker 1: thought about it? Or is it do you even want

554
00:33:19,436 --> 00:33:22,036
Speaker 1: to be involved in like a kind of or see

555
00:33:22,076 --> 00:33:24,156
Speaker 1: yourself involved in a political project or is that kind

556
00:33:24,156 --> 00:33:28,276
Speaker 1: of cheapen what you have? Or is this podcast sort

557
00:33:28,276 --> 00:33:32,756
Speaker 1: of intentionally, you know, part of an idea of you know,

558
00:33:33,276 --> 00:33:35,676
Speaker 1: moving the country forward. Yeah, I mean we started out

559
00:33:35,756 --> 00:33:39,316
Speaker 1: this conversation by saying, you know, the our show is

560
00:33:39,356 --> 00:33:41,756
Speaker 1: almost premised on this idea that here we are a

561
00:33:41,756 --> 00:33:43,676
Speaker 1: black guy and a white guy. That's not going to

562
00:33:43,716 --> 00:33:45,636
Speaker 1: get us to the promised Land. And did you get

563
00:33:45,716 --> 00:33:48,116
Speaker 1: us a podcast? And and and as you write, as

564
00:33:48,156 --> 00:33:51,276
Speaker 1: you write like those are steps that are important. It

565
00:33:51,396 --> 00:33:54,636
Speaker 1: is not the thing. But you know, we believe in

566
00:33:54,676 --> 00:33:57,996
Speaker 1: the ideal of a multiracial democracy. How could you not like,

567
00:33:58,036 --> 00:34:00,276
Speaker 1: how could you not feel like that's something where we

568
00:34:00,396 --> 00:34:03,356
Speaker 1: have to try to strive for in some way? And

569
00:34:03,876 --> 00:34:07,076
Speaker 1: you know, so so these kinds of conversations, these kinds

570
00:34:07,076 --> 00:34:11,516
Speaker 1: of connections are not the fruition, but it's certainly, like,

571
00:34:12,596 --> 00:34:15,556
Speaker 1: you know, a small way to start moving forward, to

572
00:34:15,276 --> 00:34:18,676
Speaker 1: have to at least have dialogue absolutely, Dean. You know,

573
00:34:18,716 --> 00:34:22,956
Speaker 1: we wanted this podcast to be a post Trump conversation

574
00:34:23,636 --> 00:34:27,356
Speaker 1: about how did we get there and this notion of

575
00:34:27,396 --> 00:34:31,156
Speaker 1: individualism and proximity to one another, And we came of

576
00:34:31,196 --> 00:34:33,796
Speaker 1: age as MTV babies, and we grew up in an

577
00:34:33,836 --> 00:34:38,996
Speaker 1: integrated community, largely middle class. I will add, but with

578
00:34:39,036 --> 00:34:42,996
Speaker 1: all those markings of the possibility of a change country,

579
00:34:43,476 --> 00:34:46,916
Speaker 1: the country in some ways, by so many measures, is

580
00:34:46,956 --> 00:34:49,436
Speaker 1: as worse as it was before the Civil Rights era,

581
00:34:50,156 --> 00:34:53,396
Speaker 1: and in other instances, when we talk about mass incarceration,

582
00:34:53,716 --> 00:34:55,956
Speaker 1: it's worse than it was in a Civil rights era.

583
00:34:56,436 --> 00:34:59,716
Speaker 1: So clearly we wanted to be able to talk about

584
00:34:59,716 --> 00:35:01,836
Speaker 1: our coming of age story and to talk about this

585
00:35:01,916 --> 00:35:05,276
Speaker 1: relationship as a window onto all the things we were

586
00:35:05,316 --> 00:35:09,076
Speaker 1: deliberately not taught in school, that we were not encouraged

587
00:35:09,236 --> 00:35:12,236
Speaker 1: to think about, and to ultimately reflect on that in

588
00:35:12,316 --> 00:35:15,076
Speaker 1: a productive way at this moment to say, we got

589
00:35:15,076 --> 00:35:17,556
Speaker 1: a lot of work to do to understand the actual

590
00:35:17,596 --> 00:35:20,356
Speaker 1: history and the present of this crazy country we live in.

591
00:35:20,876 --> 00:35:22,956
Speaker 1: And in that sense, I think your book is, you know,

592
00:35:23,156 --> 00:35:25,876
Speaker 1: is an invitation to that history. You Actually, that's what

593
00:35:25,916 --> 00:35:27,916
Speaker 1: I love about the book, that it's more than just

594
00:35:28,276 --> 00:35:32,476
Speaker 1: this meditation on the politics of friendship. It's actually set

595
00:35:32,556 --> 00:35:36,876
Speaker 1: a way of saying, at these particular crossroads, these relationships

596
00:35:37,236 --> 00:35:41,716
Speaker 1: were fraught, and yet they were symbolically meaningful, and there

597
00:35:41,716 --> 00:35:44,876
Speaker 1: were opportunities to take that symbolism and make its substantive

598
00:35:44,916 --> 00:35:47,836
Speaker 1: going forward. Well, we are so grateful to have had

599
00:35:47,876 --> 00:35:51,076
Speaker 1: you on this show. We certainly count you as one

600
00:35:51,116 --> 00:35:54,196
Speaker 1: of our best friends. Thank you so much, Dean for

601
00:35:54,236 --> 00:35:57,276
Speaker 1: being your conversation with us. Appreciate you. Thank you so

602
00:35:57,356 --> 00:35:59,996
Speaker 1: much for having me. Really truly has been been a pleasure.

603
00:36:00,036 --> 00:36:11,196
Speaker 1: Thank you. Yeah, thank you, Dean. Well, that was a

604
00:36:11,236 --> 00:36:15,036
Speaker 1: great conversation. It was, I mean, I definitely learned a lot.

605
00:36:15,156 --> 00:36:18,716
Speaker 1: I was surprised at how convincing Solidine was in a

606
00:36:18,756 --> 00:36:20,956
Speaker 1: lot of ways. So yeah, So I have a question

607
00:36:20,996 --> 00:36:23,876
Speaker 1: for you. Who are you in the book? Who do

608
00:36:23,916 --> 00:36:29,516
Speaker 1: you identify with? Definitely Frederick Douglas. I mean, come on,

609
00:36:30,356 --> 00:36:41,036
Speaker 1: you know, handsome, articulate, clean, boom boot certain certainly like

610
00:36:41,436 --> 00:36:43,956
Speaker 1: the commitment Douglas head to speak in truth to power.

611
00:36:44,076 --> 00:36:47,076
Speaker 1: So that's that's who I most identify with. And all right,

612
00:36:47,116 --> 00:36:48,996
Speaker 1: you asked me, so I'm asking you. How about you?

613
00:36:49,036 --> 00:36:53,476
Speaker 1: Marilyn Monroe? Uh oh, really using my sexuality for good.

614
00:36:56,436 --> 00:36:59,796
Speaker 1: Oh boy, we're in trouble. No wonder that didn't didn't

615
00:36:59,916 --> 00:37:04,036
Speaker 1: end sistific races in America. All right, man, all right,

616
00:37:04,116 --> 00:37:06,436
Speaker 1: I love you, all right, I love you too, man.

617
00:37:13,436 --> 00:37:15,796
Speaker 1: Some of My Best Friends Are is a production of

618
00:37:15,876 --> 00:37:19,196
Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. The show is written and hosted by me

619
00:37:19,436 --> 00:37:23,116
Speaker 1: Khalil Jibrad Muhammed and my best friend Ben Austin. It's

620
00:37:23,156 --> 00:37:27,276
Speaker 1: produced by John Assanti and Lucy Sullivan. Our editor is

621
00:37:27,356 --> 00:37:31,156
Speaker 1: Jasmine Morris, our engineer is Amanda ka Wang, and our

622
00:37:31,196 --> 00:37:35,716
Speaker 1: executive producer is Mio Lobell. At Pushkin thanks to Leta Mullad,

623
00:37:36,156 --> 00:37:41,596
Speaker 1: Julia Barton, Heather Faine, Carly Migliori, John Schnars, Gretta Khne,

624
00:37:41,916 --> 00:37:46,316
Speaker 1: and Jacob Weisberg. Our theme song, Little Lily, is by

625
00:37:46,356 --> 00:37:50,756
Speaker 1: fellow chicagoan the brilliant Avery R. Young, from his album Tubman.

626
00:37:51,196 --> 00:37:53,116
Speaker 1: You definitely want to check out his music at his

627
00:37:53,156 --> 00:37:56,756
Speaker 1: website Avery R. Young dot com. You can find Pushkin

628
00:37:56,836 --> 00:38:00,396
Speaker 1: on all social platforms at Pushkin pods, and you can

629
00:38:00,436 --> 00:38:03,516
Speaker 1: sign up for our newsletter at pushkin dot fm. To

630
00:38:03,596 --> 00:38:08,036
Speaker 1: find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app Apple

631
00:38:08,076 --> 00:38:15,916
Speaker 1: podcasts wherever you like to listen. Hell, you know nobody

632
00:38:16,916 --> 00:38:24,956
Speaker 1: you like You know nobody. I'm gonta know you would

633
00:38:24,996 --> 00:38:25,436
Speaker 1: like Al