1 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: Hi guys, and welcome back to You Need Therapy. My 2 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: name is Cat and I'm so glad you made it here. 3 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:20,240 Speaker 1: I am a licensed therapist who lives and works in Nashville, 4 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: where I do therapy all day. But quick reminder, this 5 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: podcast is not therapy or a substitute for therapy. Rather, 6 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: this is a resource and something that may supplement your 7 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,479 Speaker 1: own work or encourage you to start it. Now. For 8 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: today's episode, I'm so excited. We have author Lori Gottlieb, 9 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:42,520 Speaker 1: who is a psychotherapist and the New York Times best 10 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: selling author of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, which 11 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with this book. It has also sold over 12 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: a million copies and is currently being adapted as a 13 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: television series. I could not be more excited about this. 14 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: This book was really it became my best friend and 15 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: corn teen. It is such a good book. I'm obsessed 16 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: with it now. In addition to her writing and her 17 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 1: clinical practice, she is also co host of the Deer 18 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: Therapist podcast, which is executive produced by Katie Kuruk, and 19 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:18,559 Speaker 1: she writes The Atlantic's weekly Dear Therapist advice column. Also 20 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: mind You, Her recent Ted Talk was one of the 21 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: top ten most watched of the year, so she is 22 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:27,039 Speaker 1: killing it. She's incredible. I cannot stress enough how much 23 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: I loved her book. It just was. It was really 24 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: helpful to me. And in this episode together we talk 25 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: about the book, but we also talk about the themes 26 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:36,559 Speaker 1: inside of the book that came up for me during 27 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,639 Speaker 1: my own experience reading it. Laurie is another therapist who 28 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 1: goes to therapy, which you will find out by reading 29 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: the book and listening to this conversation. And I will 30 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: say her candor and exceptional writing has really humanized being 31 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 1: a therapist for me in a way that I really needed. 32 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: So I really appreciate her and the work that she's doing. 33 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: Now you can learn more about Lori at Lori Gottlieb 34 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: dot com or by following her on Instagram at Lori 35 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 1: gottlie one and Instagram at Lori Gottlieb Underscore Author. I'll 36 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: put that in the show notes, so you guys can 37 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 1: click on all that and make sure you find her. 38 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 1: Now here's my conversation with Lori. Al Right, so I 39 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 1: have somebody really exciting here today who I've been waiting 40 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 1: a couple of months now to talk to. Her name 41 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: is Lori Gottlieb, and she wrote a book that was 42 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: huge for me during the pandemic, and she's also a 43 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 1: therapist herself. So welcome, well, thank you, thank you so 44 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: much for having me. Yeah, and I want to start 45 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:38,359 Speaker 1: with this because I actually was recommended to read your 46 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: book probably last March. So in the beginning of Quarantine, 47 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 1: the woman who does my nails was like, I'm reading 48 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:47,919 Speaker 1: this book and she was like, I can't stop thinking 49 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:50,800 Speaker 1: about you, because I mean, like a lot of people, 50 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: the person that she does my nails, and I tell 51 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: her a lot about my life and what I'm going through, 52 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: and then she also knows that I'm a therapist, and 53 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: she was like, I just can't stop thinking about you. 54 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: And I'm reading this book because the way you wrote 55 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 1: and I it's genius to me. The way you wrote 56 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 1: your book. Maybe you should talk to someone. Is you 57 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 1: have your story right next to the stories of some 58 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: of the clients that you're working with, and you talk 59 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: about your process as you're talking about the stories of 60 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: some of these clients, and it very much humanizes normalizes 61 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 1: the experience of a therapist. That was my takeaway. Yeah, 62 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: I mean, for me, it's interesting because I think that 63 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: even though the book takes place in therapy, it's really 64 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: for everybody. It's sort of a story about the human condition. 65 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: And you know, you don't have to be interested in 66 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: therapy to be interested in the stories of these people. 67 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: And so just for people who haven't read the book, 68 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: you know, in the book, I follow the lives of 69 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: for very different patients as their therapist and as they 70 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: go through various life issues and struggles. And there's a 71 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: fifth patient in the book, and that's me as I 72 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: go to a therapist as I go through something in 73 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: my own life and need to work that through. And 74 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: I say it the big ending of the book that 75 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: my most significant credential is that I'm a card carrying 76 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: member of the human race. That you know, I didn't 77 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: want this to be a book of I'm the expert 78 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: and let me show you these cases. It's it's yes, 79 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: I'm I'm a therapist and I help people through this 80 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:18,559 Speaker 1: thing we called life. But then I also am human. 81 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 1: I know what it's like to be a person in 82 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: the world, and we all struggle, and so you see 83 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: me going through my process of growth and change as well, 84 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: which was so powerful for me to read that because 85 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:34,600 Speaker 1: I often will describe myself as a therapist who goes 86 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:37,479 Speaker 1: to therapy, and I think it's really important. I think 87 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 1: it's very important. But I also think, and this is 88 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 1: part of my bias, and it's part of things that 89 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 1: I've just heard, is I think a lot of people 90 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 1: look at therapists and they're like, their lives must be perfect. Well, 91 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 1: I think there are two stereotypes of therapists. Actually, I 92 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,599 Speaker 1: think there's the they have it all together. There's that one, 93 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: and then the other one, which is in the media. 94 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: You know, when you watch television, it's you know, oh, 95 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: it's the therapist is really great to work with, they're 96 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 1: hot mess outside of work. There's not just like therapists 97 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: are just like us. They're normal people, right, Um, it's 98 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 1: sort of one extreme or the other, and that's why 99 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 1: they're you know, we're making a TV series from Maybe 100 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: You Should Talk to Someone, And my biggest goal with 101 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: that TV series is just to make it just like 102 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 1: the book, about a bunch of people who happen to 103 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: be working through things in life. And so it's not 104 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 1: a show about therapy. It's a show about people who 105 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: happened to be therapists. So it's not that typical thing 106 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: you see on TV where it's like, here's all this 107 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 1: you know this, this person is having affairs and this 108 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: person is like you know, they're this, this crisis is 109 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's just like the normal stuff of life, 110 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 1: which I think is much more relatable. I think that 111 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 1: that's why people really responded to the book is because 112 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: they can see themselves in every single one of these people. 113 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: Because and and because you did such a good job 114 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 1: of the were the people that you talked about. They're 115 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: so different, but even I saw a little bit of 116 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: me and eat every single and especially you because one 117 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 1: of the things that I went through a couple of 118 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: years ago was and I'm not going to give too 119 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 1: much about the book because if you haven't read it, 120 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:10,840 Speaker 1: you need to just go read it. So good. It's 121 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 1: a book that this is what I do with books. 122 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,159 Speaker 1: I don't read a lot of them, but when I 123 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 1: find one that I like, I like, don't let myself 124 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: finish it. So I started reading and I couldn't put 125 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:23,280 Speaker 1: it down. And my friends, it was quarantine, so I 126 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:25,239 Speaker 1: had a lot of time. But people I was quarantine 127 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:26,600 Speaker 1: with would be like, I want to come hang out, 128 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 1: and I'm like I have to read. But then when 129 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: I got but then when I got to the end, 130 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: I had like fifty pages left, and I swear it 131 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 1: took me like six months to read the last fifty 132 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 1: pages because I didn't want to be done with it. 133 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:39,039 Speaker 1: So I'm very excited that it's going to be a 134 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: TV show because that's a book that I'll definitely read again. 135 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 1: But I a couple of years ago, UM had an 136 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 1: experience of a really really traumatic for me, but a 137 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: really hard breakup, and I started going to therapy again. 138 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 1: I restarted, and I had this dissonance of I'm going 139 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 1: to therapy and I'm like crying and I'm like getting angry, 140 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: and I'm I'm I'm mad at life and I'm mad 141 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: at all these things. And I go to my office 142 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: and I'm working with my clients and some of them 143 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: are going through similar things as me, but also like 144 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: sometimes I have just like wiped my tears and taken 145 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: a deep breath and then I walk into the room. 146 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 1: And for me, at that time, I wasn't talking to 147 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: anybody that was like going through something just like that, 148 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: and so reading that book, I was like, this is 149 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: us being humans, This is just therapists being humans and 150 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: having their own stuff. And in the long run, for me, 151 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: it was very helpful going through that experience. It's helped 152 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 1: me be a better therapist. But it was just very 153 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: comforting to read something that I felt so connected to 154 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: in that way. I want to say thank you for 155 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: being I would call it pretty courageous to put parts 156 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 1: of your story in the book. Yeah, I mean it 157 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: wasn't just parts of the story. I mean it was 158 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 1: the story there, there, and and And It's interesting because 159 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: so if you read the book, you know that I 160 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: wasn't going to write this book. This was never a 161 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: book that I intended to write. So I was going 162 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 1: to write well, I had written this piece for I 163 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 1: So I'm a journalist in addition to being a therapist. 164 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 1: I was a journalist long before I became a therapist. 165 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: Therapy became sort of a second career for me later on. 166 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: And so I had written this piece for The Atlantic. 167 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: It was a cover story called how to Land Your 168 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: kidd in Therapy, Why our obsession with our kids happiness 169 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: may be dooming them to unhappy adulthoods And it went viral. 170 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: It was, you know, one of those things that went 171 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 1: sort of crazy viral and publishers wanted me to write 172 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: that book, and they offered me this exorbitant sum of 173 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: money to write that book. And I say that only 174 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: because I said no, and everyone thought I was crazy. 175 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 1: They said, you did all the research already. There was 176 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 1: so much written the piece you you you know, it's 177 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 1: a it's a fast, easy book to write, and you know, 178 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: I needed to pay off like my internship, and you know, 179 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 1: all these things like why wouldn't you do that? But 180 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: it just did not feel like the book that needed 181 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: to be out there. I felt like there were a 182 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: lot of overparenting books out there, and especially when you 183 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: become a therapist, I think you really lean toward meaning, 184 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 1: you lean toward purpose, and you lean towards sort of 185 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:07,079 Speaker 1: what would be useful in the world. So I didn't 186 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: do that. And I said, I'm really interested in what's 187 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 1: happening with the adults. And they said, oh, you want 188 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:13,439 Speaker 1: to write a happiness book. And I said, no, I 189 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: don't want to write a happiness book. But that that 190 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: that ended up sort of being what they thought that 191 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 1: I was going to write, and I was sort of stuck. 192 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 1: And you know, that's one of the subplots in the 193 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:24,199 Speaker 1: book is and maybe you should talk to someone? Is 194 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: this this thing about my really finding my voice? And um, 195 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: Eventually I canceled that book and I and I decided 196 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 1: to write this book. And I brought myself in for 197 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: the reason that I said, which is that I really 198 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 1: wanted this to be, you know, an experience of showing 199 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 1: how we're all more the same than we are different. 200 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: And I wanted every single person reading it to see 201 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 1: themselves in every single person, including me, and so as 202 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,319 Speaker 1: a mirror reflected back so they could really almost like 203 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 1: like go through a therapeutic experience themselves. And so nobody 204 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: wanted this book, so I could not know. Now it 205 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: sold over a million copies, it's all over the world. 206 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 1: It's and and but but I think that what's interesting 207 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:08,199 Speaker 1: is that nobody wanted it. I almost couldn't sell it. 208 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: And you know, this one publisher took it on, and 209 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: by the way, not for a lot of money compared 210 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: to the other one. And and so I just I'm 211 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 1: free to write whatever I want to write. If they think, 212 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 1: like only three people will read this, then I'm really free. 213 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: I don't have to worry about people reading my story. 214 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: And then I turned it into the publisher after I 215 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 1: wrote it, and they were like, oh my gosh, I laughed, 216 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: I cried, I learned, I grew. I gave it to people. 217 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:36,680 Speaker 1: These people are like living in my mind, my soul, 218 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,319 Speaker 1: and I thought, okay, well, maybe like three thousand people 219 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 1: will read it. And I had this moment where I thought, 220 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: maybe I should kind of clean myself up with my story, 221 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 1: maybe I should take out the parts where you know, 222 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 1: I'm being extremely vulnerable. But I didn't, and I think 223 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 1: that's why so many people have read it and why 224 00:10:55,480 --> 00:11:00,080 Speaker 1: it became sort of this this massive success, because I 225 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 1: think that people want authenticity. They want to see the real, 226 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 1: the raw, the you know, like every thought feeling that 227 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: they feel like they're alone in Oh my gosh, somebody 228 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: else has that. Not only do somebody else have that, 229 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: but a therapist has that. It was an invitation. That 230 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 1: book is an invitation to show up and that be okay, 231 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 1: Like that's really what it is, because that last sentence 232 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: you said, like, not just another person doesn't feel like this, 233 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: but a therapist does. It's an invitation to be yourself, 234 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 1: and that be literally okay, and be yourself in the 235 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 1: sense that like the messy parts, because that's one of 236 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: the struggles that I think our culture is having a 237 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 1: lot right now. As much as I love social media 238 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: and Instagram and all of that, but it always is 239 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: going to be a majority highlight reel in that book 240 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: is an invitation that like with the good because there's 241 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:51,199 Speaker 1: so much goodness in that book. Oh yeah, I think, 242 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's a very hopeful, but you know, 243 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:55,959 Speaker 1: it's like it's a very funny book and it's very hopeful, 244 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:58,680 Speaker 1: and it's also you know, it will there's a tissue 245 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: box on the cover for a reason, you will cry. 246 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: Oh for sure. You mentioned something that I kind of 247 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,319 Speaker 1: I'm curious about. So your first career was not being 248 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: a therapist, right, And I am just so curious about 249 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 1: that process for you because that's something that comes up, 250 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: I'm sure in your office in my office all the time, 251 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: is purpose and passion and finding the one thing you're 252 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 1: going to do with your life and how do you 253 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: know if it's right. And I'm very curious about that 254 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 1: process for you and what that looked like in the 255 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 1: internal struggle of like I'm doing this, but now maybe 256 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: I want to do this, but maybe I want to 257 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: do this, and how you listened to yourself because you 258 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 1: listened to yourself. Yeah, that's such an important question because 259 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 1: I really had to let go of society's expectations of, 260 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 1: you know, what a career is supposed to look like, 261 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:48,679 Speaker 1: and what people are supposed to do with their lives. 262 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 1: And I think at the end of the day, you 263 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:52,680 Speaker 1: kind of say, well, I get this one life, and 264 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: so why wouldn't I want to be the one making 265 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: the decisions about how I spend my time every day 266 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 1: in my life. But most of us don't think that way. 267 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 1: We think we think that way, but then we really 268 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: get influenced by a lot of these louder voices outside 269 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: and we can't hear that voice inside, that place of 270 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 1: knowing that we all have inside. It gets drowned out 271 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,959 Speaker 1: by those louder voices. So when I graduated from college, 272 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 1: I was always an avid reader. I loved story and 273 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 1: I loved the human condition, and I loved stories that 274 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: really captured the human condition in a way that resonated, 275 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: that moved me, that transformed me, and it made me 276 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 1: feel like, oh, I connect with this person, this character 277 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 1: in a novel, this um, this situation, or or it 278 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 1: elucidates some truth about the human condition that I related 279 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:46,079 Speaker 1: to that I had experienced, um or I had seen 280 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: in the people that I love. And so I started 281 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,679 Speaker 1: working in the entertainment business, first doing film development, and 282 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: then I moved over to network television development. And I 283 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 1: write about all of this in the book. It's because 284 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: I wanted this story to be told as well. This 285 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: this evolution I think other people have seen. Have felt 286 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 1: so much freedom by reading it and really questioned some 287 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: of their choices and gave them permission to say, wait 288 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 1: a minute, am I really stuck in this thing? Or 289 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 1: can I do something else? And so I went over 290 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: to NBC. It was the year that Friends and There 291 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 1: were premiering, so this was a long time ago. And 292 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: one of the things that I was doing on there 293 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: was we had a consultant on the show who was 294 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: in the R doc and I would spend time in 295 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 1: the e R with him and come up the story ideas. 296 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: And he kept saying to me, I think you like 297 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: it better here than you like your day job. Because 298 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: I always wanted to be there, even when I didn't 299 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 1: need to be. And eventually I decided to apply to 300 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 1: medical school because I loved the real stories. The stories 301 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: on the R were amazing. I mean, that's why that 302 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 1: show resonated with so many people. But I think when 303 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: you're dealing with real, live human beings in the moment, 304 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: there's there's a completely different level of I think engagement 305 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: and connection and purpose and meaning again going back to that, 306 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: and so I I went to medical school, UM, and 307 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: when I was in medical school, I started writing, and 308 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: I ended up leaving medical school to become a journalist 309 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 1: where I felt like I could really tell people's stories. 310 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: I felt like there was so much about like getting 311 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 1: in the trenches with people and really you know, being 312 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 1: able to examine those stories and tell those stories and 313 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: share those stories. And it was later after I had 314 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 1: a baby, when for anybody who's had a baby, UM, 315 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 1: they know that it can be very isolating in terms 316 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: of adult conversation. And so I remember that, like we 317 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: would get so many deliveries in the ups. Guy would 318 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: come to the door all the time, and I would 319 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 1: detain him with like, how's the weather out there? And 320 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: do you have kids? And he would like kind of 321 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: like try to you know, back away to his big 322 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 1: round track. And eventually we actually became friends in those 323 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 1: story in the book about that. But anyway, I decided 324 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: to call up the dean at the medical school that 325 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: I was at and they said, you know, maybe I 326 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 1: should come back and do psychiatry. And she said, you know, 327 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: psychiatry has a lot of medication management. It you would 328 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: go through all this training with baby with a toddler, 329 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 1: and um, do you really want to do that when 330 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: you could do the deep work that you want to 331 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: do and get a graduate degree in clinical psychology and 332 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: and and do what you've always talked about doing, which is, 333 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: you know, going through these deep experiences with people and 334 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 1: sort of guiding and witnessing. And it was excellent advice 335 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 1: and that's what I did. And so I feel like 336 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: I went from telling people stories as a journalist to 337 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: helping people to edit their stories as a therapist. And 338 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: I did a ted talk about this, how you know, 339 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: how changing our stories can change our lives, and how 340 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: people come into therapy with one story and what we 341 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: really do in there is edit that story so they 342 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 1: can leave with a completely different story and a much 343 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 1: more accurate story and accurate yes, And you know what 344 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 1: you're speaking to which is so important is also this 345 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: timeline idea that runs rampant in in society about because 346 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 1: you're saying, you started one career, then you went to 347 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: medical school, and then you left medical and then you 348 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 1: felt comfortable going back, but you didn't, and then you 349 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: did this other thing. I don't hear you saying. And 350 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,920 Speaker 1: maybe you have these feelings, but it's too late, or 351 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 1: my time has passed, or by the time I graduate 352 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: will be this age, like I think so often that's 353 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: what people think. But also, you were doing right now 354 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,400 Speaker 1: what you were created to do, and the only way 355 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: you would have be doing that is you let yourself. 356 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 1: Like the timeline thing just drives me wild, and I 357 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:28,719 Speaker 1: struggle with it too. I think there's this idea of 358 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:32,199 Speaker 1: sunk costs that um, you know, someone, I've invested this 359 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 1: many years in this career, so I can't switch now 360 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 1: because look at all, look at all the time that 361 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: I invested in this career, and then if I start over, 362 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:42,679 Speaker 1: I'll be starting at the bottom, which you will, right. 363 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:45,159 Speaker 1: But the thing is, you know, I remember when I 364 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 1: was doing my internship, and I was one of the 365 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: oldest people there obviously because most people were just out 366 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,160 Speaker 1: of um, you know, they were in grad school and 367 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 1: we're just out of grad school, and I was like, 368 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 1: a good you know, fifteen years older than they were. 369 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: And I remember everybody was sort of like, oh, how 370 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 1: many more? You know, how long will it take before 371 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,360 Speaker 1: I get my hours for licensure and then I'll take 372 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 1: my boards and then I'll get licensed. And one of 373 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 1: our supervisors heard this, and she walked by and she said, 374 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 1: what does it matter how old you're going to be, Like, 375 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: you're gonna turn forty anyway, you know, it doesn't matter. 376 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: You know, you don't you want to be doing what 377 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 1: you're doing, right, So she said something like, well, the 378 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 1: speed of light is outdated now. Everybody moves at the 379 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 1: speed of want. And I thought that was so so 380 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: important for us to hear, but we couldn't hear it, 381 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:30,679 Speaker 1: Like we couldn't hear it at that time. We were 382 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 1: just rushing, rushing, rushing through our days like most of 383 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 1: us do, just like get through the day, rush through 384 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: the days, achieve this, get this, accomplished this, and then 385 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 1: we always say, when this happens, when my child turns 386 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: this age, I will this. You know, when this happens, 387 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 1: I will do this. You know, in five years, here's 388 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: the play at But you don't know, you know, And 389 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 1: I think one of the things that maybe you should 390 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: talk to someone my book does is it really brings 391 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: home this idea that we don't know how long we 392 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 1: have on this earth, right that you know, life has 393 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: a hundred percent mortality rate, and that's not just for 394 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: other people. That hundred percent includes us, and we don't 395 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 1: know how or when we're going to die. And I 396 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: think that we are all death deniers. We say, well, 397 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 1: that's not going to happen to me for a very 398 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:15,880 Speaker 1: long time. And then the reality is, and you see 399 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: this in medical school, by the way, people of all 400 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 1: ages die at all different times, for all different reasons, 401 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 1: even getting hit by a car or a sudden stroke 402 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: or heart attack or whatever it is. And I don't 403 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 1: say that too to make people anxious. I say that 404 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 1: because I think an awareness of death helps us to 405 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 1: live our lives more fully. It helps us to be 406 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: more alive in the moment. And so many of us 407 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,199 Speaker 1: are not living in the present. We're living in the 408 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: future or the past. And so when I was doing 409 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 1: all of these careers, which is so many people said 410 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:45,360 Speaker 1: to me, you know, well, why would you do that, 411 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 1: or you're you know, you're your thirty and you're going 412 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:49,639 Speaker 1: to med school and why would you do that? Or 413 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,479 Speaker 1: you're gonna you you did all these all these post 414 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: back pre med classes to get into med school and 415 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 1: you got into Stanford, right, so you like worked really 416 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,440 Speaker 1: hard to do this and you're gonna leave you don't 417 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 1: do that, like at least finish. At least finish and 418 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 1: then you can say you got the m D. And 419 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: I'm like, why, I know that that's not what I 420 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 1: want to do. So I've done my two years. Why 421 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 1: I do the next two years when I can go 422 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,120 Speaker 1: and do the thing I want to do. I don't 423 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: want to like just spend those two years that I'm 424 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:19,679 Speaker 1: never going to get back doing something I know I 425 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:21,919 Speaker 1: don't want to do well. And there's in't that speaking 426 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:23,879 Speaker 1: to you what you said earlier about like you are 427 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: the one that has to live your life. So if 428 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,680 Speaker 1: if you're going to school and getting that degree, because 429 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 1: then you have that degree, okay, but if you don't 430 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 1: want it, why is it's not going to matter? Well 431 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: that's the thing about again. So going back to sun 432 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 1: costs and opportunity costs and the sun cost is, yes, 433 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: I invested all that time and money in the first 434 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,920 Speaker 1: two years of medical school. But the opportunity cost would 435 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: be if I stay in medical school, I'm losing the 436 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:47,360 Speaker 1: opportunity right to go do the thing that I want 437 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 1: to do during those two years, which will help me 438 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 1: move forward in the things that I want to do. 439 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 1: So you have to look at it in terms of 440 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 1: opportunity costs. What are you giving up by doing the 441 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: thing that you don't actually want to do. People do 442 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 1: this in relationships all the time. By the way, They're like, 443 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 1: I've been in this relationship for so long. I really 444 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: want to David, I really want to keep working at 445 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 1: this relationship, and clearly that is not the relationship. And 446 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 1: yet people feel like, oh, but then I have to 447 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: start all over and I don't know what's going to happen, 448 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: and maybe I won't meet another person. And then they 449 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,360 Speaker 1: spend another three years in that relationship with three years 450 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: later they're like, I wish I had left three years ago. 451 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,919 Speaker 1: I wasted three more years in this relationship that I 452 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: knew was not the right relationship for me. And I 453 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,200 Speaker 1: think what people failed to see in that, because you're right, 454 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: people do all day long, is that that two years 455 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 1: of medical school you benefited from that. You still got 456 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 1: something out of that, and that's helping a lot of 457 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,359 Speaker 1: what you are doing now. Probably what you've seen and 458 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: what you learned in that area, what you learn in relationships, 459 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:49,639 Speaker 1: you take that into the next relationship, you take that 460 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: into the next moment of your life. What you're learning 461 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 1: about yourself, people and in the world. So it's it's 462 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 1: not so much the wasted time thing is so hard 463 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: for me to hear sometimes because I know I've said 464 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 1: it myself. But also it's like, no, like you were 465 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 1: living in those moments. You were still gaining experience in 466 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 1: those moments. Like in relationships, you're still allowed to enjoy 467 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,360 Speaker 1: the moments that were joyful in those relationships. They're not wasted, 468 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:18,160 Speaker 1: you are happy, well, right, So so people with such 469 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: a good point, because people when they leave a relationship, 470 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 1: they say, well, that was just wasted type. First of all, 471 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,479 Speaker 1: you probably learned a lot about yourself and how you 472 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 1: are in relationship, and you also probably had some really 473 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: good times that that are that are not erased because 474 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,879 Speaker 1: the relationship ended, Right, Those hives are still part of 475 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 1: your life experience, just like the other times are part 476 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: of your life experience. Why I do think people do that. 477 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,120 Speaker 1: Why just your perspective of why do you think when 478 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: a somebody and it doesn't always happen, but oftentimes when 479 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,920 Speaker 1: people end a relationship, it's like all of that is wasted. 480 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 1: And I'm like, but wait a second. Two months ago, 481 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:52,959 Speaker 1: you were telling me about how much fun you had 482 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 1: on a trip or this night or this date or 483 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 1: this conversation that you learned, Like, why do you think 484 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,439 Speaker 1: people are so quick to like everything's bad the sudden? 485 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 1: I think because it brings up the pain and people 486 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:06,399 Speaker 1: don't want to feel the discomfort of that. You know, 487 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 1: it's complicated the feelings that people have when something ends, 488 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 1: and so it's so much easier for people to say 489 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:14,920 Speaker 1: it was all bad and I'm done with that, because 490 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 1: then they don't have to feel those complicated feelings of 491 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,399 Speaker 1: But there were things I loved about this person and 492 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: I had to lose that when I gave up this relationship, 493 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 1: and so they can't sit with the I gave up 494 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 1: certain things that were that I really loved, and I 495 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: gave up certain things that and I gave up this 496 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:33,400 Speaker 1: this idea of the future that I had with this 497 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 1: person had to die, right because when you're with someone, 498 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: You're not just in the present with them, you're in 499 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,119 Speaker 1: the future with them too. You're thinking, like, this is 500 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 1: how the future is going to go. And when something 501 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,399 Speaker 1: like that ends, not only did that experience end, but 502 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,679 Speaker 1: the future you associated with it ended as well. You know, 503 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 1: it happens to with any kind of loss. Like let's 504 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,159 Speaker 1: say that they have like they're pregnant and they have 505 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: a miscarriage. Right, people think, oh, well, if they'll you know, 506 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,119 Speaker 1: they'll get pregnant again or or or they'll it's you know, 507 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: it's like a like a discrete incident. But no, it's 508 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,679 Speaker 1: like you want not only lost the baby that you 509 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,880 Speaker 1: were carrying, right, but you lost the future you associated 510 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,400 Speaker 1: with that you had had a whole story in your head. 511 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 1: And we as humans tell stories. That's why story was 512 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 1: such an important part of maybe you should talk to someone, 513 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 1: and it's also what my ted talk is about, and 514 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:19,960 Speaker 1: it's also what we do on our on our podcast, 515 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 1: on that Your Therapist podcast. I think that people think 516 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: in stories. Humans make sense of our world in our 517 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: lives through story, and so anything that happens in our lives, 518 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 1: it's a story that we create. And there's not just 519 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: the present moment of it, but there's the history of it, 520 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 1: and then there's the future that we envision will happen. 521 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,199 Speaker 1: And so now it's like you've lost the baby, but 522 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 1: you've lost this this whole story you had about what 523 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,639 Speaker 1: would happen with this child that you were carrying. And 524 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:47,159 Speaker 1: so people think people are going to get over in 525 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 1: miscarriage very quickly, and often you know they don't because 526 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,640 Speaker 1: it's like a silent loss. People feel like you don't 527 00:24:52,720 --> 00:25:02,679 Speaker 1: understand what I've actually lost here. Now, I want to 528 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 1: transition a little bit because I do want you to 529 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: talk about this because this was I think a really 530 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,880 Speaker 1: important part of some of the stuff that I read 531 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: part of your book. I want you to talk a 532 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 1: little bit about the difference between because as a therapist 533 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,239 Speaker 1: and you're giving all this awesome like truth and and 534 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 1: stuff that some people aren't willing to say. I want 535 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,199 Speaker 1: you to talk about the difference between the wise and 536 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: idiot compassion a little bit. Can you explain that? Yeah, 537 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 1: I think that people who haven't been to therapy, I think, well, 538 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: I can just talk to my friends about this stuff, 539 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,120 Speaker 1: and we should talk to our friends, right that these 540 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,680 Speaker 1: relationships are very important. The thing is that your friends 541 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 1: are not therapists, and so they don't see you in 542 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 1: the way that maybe um, somebody who's trained to see 543 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,880 Speaker 1: certain things does. And your friends, most of all, are 544 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,120 Speaker 1: not objective. Now we're not objective either. We're human beings 545 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 1: that we have all kinds of thoughts and feelings and 546 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 1: our own life experience. Like you go to one therapist, 547 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: they're going to be very different from another therapist. So 548 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,439 Speaker 1: it's not it's not like you're going to a robot, right, 549 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:01,919 Speaker 1: You're going to human being and every therapist you go 550 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: to will will be different. But I think that one 551 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:06,680 Speaker 1: thing that all therapists have in common is that going 552 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 1: to a therapist is kind of like getting a really 553 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 1: good second opinion on your life from someone who's not 554 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,120 Speaker 1: already in your life. And that's the part that's so important. 555 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: We are not already in your life, so we can 556 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,199 Speaker 1: see things from a different vantage point and we have 557 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 1: that advantage. And so idiot compassion is like your friend says, 558 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 1: you know, here's what happened with my my partner, my sibling, 559 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 1: my mother, my boss, right, And we say, yeah, you 560 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 1: were right, they were wrong. That's terrible, right, So we 561 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 1: just support them blindly, we go along with them because 562 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:40,919 Speaker 1: we feel like that is going that's what being a 563 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,439 Speaker 1: good friend is. Now. I think in our heads we know, well, 564 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: being a good friends is also being honest, so we 565 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 1: want to be honest. But I think our tendency is like, 566 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 1: we don't want to hurt our friends feelings, and we're 567 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 1: righteously indignant on behalf of our friends because we're only 568 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,239 Speaker 1: hearing their version of the story. We don't actually know 569 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 1: what the other version of the story is. So based 570 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 1: on their version of the story, we're like, yeah, absolutely, 571 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: that's terrible. But if you actually listen to your friends 572 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 1: stories over time, you might hear a pattern. It's kind 573 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 1: of like if a fight breaks out in every bar 574 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: you're going to, maybe it's you. We don't say that 575 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 1: to our friends, so it's kind of like, oh, wait, 576 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,199 Speaker 1: that's the third time that someone has broken up with 577 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:17,359 Speaker 1: her because she has kind of like been overly needy 578 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,959 Speaker 1: or she's snooped through his things or you know, or 579 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 1: whatever it is, right or she or she or she 580 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,479 Speaker 1: can't handle intimacy and she she you know, kind of 581 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 1: like pushes the person away or whatever it is. And 582 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 1: by the way, Amasing is she or it could be anybody. Okay, 583 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,400 Speaker 1: I just want to be clear. This happens with any gender. 584 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 1: And so you know we we support our friends in 585 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,399 Speaker 1: that way. Wise compassion is what you get in therapy 586 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: as we hold up a mirror to you and we 587 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:42,919 Speaker 1: help you to see something about yourself that maybe you 588 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 1: haven't been willing or able to see. And we do 589 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 1: it with compassion. That's why it's called wise compassion. But 590 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 1: we're helping you to see another version of the story. 591 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 1: We're helping you to see another perspective. We're helping to 592 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,879 Speaker 1: shine a light on your blind spots, something that you 593 00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: haven't been able to see. And the purpose of that 594 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 1: is to give you agency in your own life, to 595 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: make you not a role player in your own life, 596 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: but to be the protagonist in your life. Because if 597 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 1: you're reacting to everything and you feel like helpless and 598 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 1: here's what happens to you, what is your role in that? 599 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 1: How can you? And not only and by the way, 600 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,120 Speaker 1: there's a saying you know that we have this therapist, 601 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 1: which is that before diagnosing someone with depression, make sure 602 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 1: they aren't surrounded by assholes, right and so and so 603 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 1: it's not we're not saying there are difficult people out there. 604 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:29,920 Speaker 1: We're not saying that people maybe are not treating you well. 605 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,360 Speaker 1: We're saying, but but what do you do in reaction 606 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 1: to that? Why are you in a relationship with this person? 607 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 1: Do you need to be? And maybe if you need 608 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 1: to be for lots of reasons that people do need 609 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 1: to be, family members, etcetera. And by the way, you 610 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 1: don't always need to be, but say you want to be, 611 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: then you know, what is the dance that you're doing 612 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 1: with this person? And can you change your dance steps 613 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: so that you have more power control agency choices In 614 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 1: this interaction, you're talking about coming from a victim stance 615 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 1: to the hero in your story, like if you bring 616 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: it back to the story, like I would say, like 617 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 1: a helpless helpless stance, right, Um, you know we see that. 618 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: So I have this this podcast called Deer Therapists and 619 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 1: we do sessions like you can hear actual sessions on 620 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: the podcast. I have a co therapist guy went with me. 621 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 1: And what's so interesting about that is it goes right 622 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 1: to this question that you're asking of you know, how 623 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 1: do people change and how does wise compassion help them 624 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 1: to change? And so here you have two therapists, right, 625 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: So it's not it's it's actually you're getting two doses 626 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 1: of wise compassion. And you see how even one session 627 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 1: that people can go from coming in with one story 628 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: and if you listen to the episode, it's it's an 629 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: actual therapy session. At the end of it. They have 630 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 1: a very different perspective on the issue that they came 631 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 1: in with, no matter what it is. And I think 632 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 1: that that helps so many people. It's kind of like 633 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: free therapy for people, because people have said, like, I 634 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 1: didn't have that particular issue, but I used so much 635 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: of what was said in that session in my own life. 636 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 1: And so I think, you know therapy, and you know 637 00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: this as a clinician, that therapy happens in the room, 638 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 1: and not a lot of people get to have that experience. 639 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: And so what we're doing is we're bringing therapy out 640 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 1: of the therapy room and into people's earbuds so that 641 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 1: they can have that experience too. Because I think that 642 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: the more that we talk about this, the more we 643 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,960 Speaker 1: just normalize these conversations, the more that people have tools 644 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 1: and understanding and self understanding and especially self compassion, but 645 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: self compassion with a perfect self compassion with with an 646 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:27,480 Speaker 1: eye toward and how can I grow and change and 647 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 1: move forward. It's good not only for individual people, but 648 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 1: for the for like the people that were in relationship 649 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 1: with and for society at large. Yeah, there's a nuance 650 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: to what you're doing too, right, So wise compassion isn't 651 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 1: you being an asshole to your client and being like 652 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 1: this is your fault, you're doing this, blah blah blah. 653 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 1: It comes with like compassion generally, but grace and a 654 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 1: relationship that you've built and an understanding. And I think 655 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: another thing, and I don't know if I've heard you 656 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 1: say this in your book, but also when you're you're 657 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 1: giving the feedback that needs to be given, you don't 658 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 1: give it to them in the middle of their like 659 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 1: most painful moment. Well so, right, So I think it's 660 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: interesting because what happens in the therapy room is a 661 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,960 Speaker 1: microcosm of what happens outside the therapy room. So whatever 662 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: people do outside, if they pull away when they get 663 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 1: too close, if they hide things, if they're not honest, um, 664 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: if they project onto you all kinds of things like 665 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 1: you don't like me or you know, whatever it is, um, 666 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: they probably are doing that outside the therapy too. And 667 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 1: so what's great is in those moments where it's safe, 668 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: where they trust you and you build trust with them, 669 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: and you can say in this way where it's not 670 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 1: a criticism, right, they don't, It doesn't doesn't come across 671 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 1: that way. It's actually this very loving moment of I 672 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 1: see you and you and I'm embracing what I see 673 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 1: and you are lovable just the way you are, and 674 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 1: you're getting in your own way. And let's look at 675 00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 1: this moment. Let's look at what just happened here between us, 676 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: in this in this really love and compassionate space that 677 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: we've created between us. Let's look at this. And so 678 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: the reason people can't look at some of the things 679 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 1: that they're doing is because of shame. They just shame 680 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: is something where the doors are shut. If you feel shame, 681 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 1: you don't want to go anywhere near that. You don't 682 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 1: want anyone to see you. But if you can create 683 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,239 Speaker 1: a space in the therapy room for someone where they 684 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 1: don't feel shamed, where they feel embraced, where they feel accepted, 685 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: where they feel that you really care about that, and 686 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 1: we truly do, we can't we can't be effective with 687 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 1: people if we don't authentically feel that way about the 688 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: person who's sitting a few feet away from us. And 689 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: so when you have created that, it's this magical space 690 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 1: that we don't get so much out in the world, 691 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 1: and that's where you can say things to people like, 692 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 1: let's notice what's happening. Let's understand that I see you 693 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: just did this. I think that also happens outside of 694 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 1: here too. Can we just slow down and understand that 695 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 1: a little bit better right now? And the feeling when 696 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 1: someone does that for you, because obviously so in the book, 697 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: you see my therapists do that for me too. It's 698 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: just the most delicious feeling of Wow, I feel so 699 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 1: connected right now. I feel so loved right now, I 700 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 1: feel so cared for right cared for. That's like that, 701 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 1: that's what it's coming to me. It's like cared for 702 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: the moment where somebody is willing to notice these little 703 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 1: things that nobody else is noticing in your life and 704 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 1: and sit in this uncomfortable spot with you and share 705 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: that with you. That is huge. It's that expression we 706 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 1: have a feeling felt. Yeah, right, it's that expression I 707 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 1: feel felt, And that's what you wanted therapisically want the 708 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 1: people who come to see you. You want them to 709 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 1: have that feeling of feeling felt, and then they can 710 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 1: translate that out into the world. So then it's like, 711 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 1: how do they get that out in the world, How 712 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 1: do they set boundaries, how do they ask for it, 713 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 1: how do they show up? How how can they be 714 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 1: the person they want to be in their relationships as 715 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 1: well as find people who will be the person that 716 00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 1: they want to be in a relationship with. Right And 717 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 1: you see that in Charlotte in the book, because this 718 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 1: young woman in her twenties who who comes to me 719 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 1: and um, she keeps ending up in these relationships with 720 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 1: these guys who just you know, are not good for her, 721 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:13,400 Speaker 1: and she doesn't see her own role in that. She 722 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 1: thinks it's like, oh, guys, man, they're like that. Um, 723 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 1: you know. At one point she even ends up like 724 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:19,880 Speaker 1: hooking up with a guy in the waiting room. I 725 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:21,239 Speaker 1: don't mean by the way that they're hooking up with 726 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 1: the wa waiting room. They're not. They're I have a 727 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 1: suite of therapists and um, this this guy is there 728 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 1: to see another therapist. But I know he's bad news. 729 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 1: I know it because she has radar for that, because 730 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:33,799 Speaker 1: it's this repetition compulsion that I talked about in the 731 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 1: book of you know, trying to kind of recreate this 732 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 1: thing from childhood that she thinks is different from people 733 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,799 Speaker 1: who disappointed her in childhood, but end up she has 734 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 1: radar for people who have some of the same qualities 735 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 1: that she can't see yet. And and so it isn't 736 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 1: until she sort of untangles that that that she's able 737 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:54,399 Speaker 1: to find people who who are the kinds of people 738 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,480 Speaker 1: that she wants to be in relationship with. But I 739 00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 1: think that that's what therapy does. And that's the difference 740 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:00,879 Speaker 1: between idiot comassion and lized passion, that it's the wise 741 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: compassion that helps you to to really understand the role 742 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 1: that you're playing in your own life, instead of the 743 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,719 Speaker 1: idiot compassion, which is like, yeah, oh my gosh, they 744 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 1: were wrong, I'm so sorry that happened. You know, it's 745 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 1: a really transformative experience to sit in a room with 746 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 1: somebody who can see the truth of you, and for 747 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,919 Speaker 1: you to be able to show the truth of who 748 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,840 Speaker 1: you are and not be ashamed of it, and to 749 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,319 Speaker 1: say this is who I am and I'm showing up. 750 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 1: I always say that like therapy, and I love that 751 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 1: you even brought this up. Like therapy to me is 752 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 1: an experiment for the real world. Because you're do you 753 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 1: are doing things that you end up doing the real world. 754 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:39,759 Speaker 1: And so this is an experiment of how can you 755 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 1: play around with something different and showing up full and 756 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 1: letting somebody see you and letting somebody like open up 757 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 1: certain wounds and letting somebody like that's all an experiment. 758 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,320 Speaker 1: And if we can do it in this safe environment, 759 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 1: maybe one day you can do it out in the world. 760 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:56,879 Speaker 1: Maybe one day you can take that out right, right. 761 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,360 Speaker 1: And we don't learn this growing up, right, So what 762 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 1: do we learn grow growing up? We learned, you know, 763 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,759 Speaker 1: all the subjects that we learned in school, but we 764 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,880 Speaker 1: don't learn relationships. And by the way, by relationships, I 765 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: mean relationship to self as well as relationship to others. 766 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,839 Speaker 1: And why by relationship to self, I mean we don't 767 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,040 Speaker 1: know how to be kind to ourselves. So when I 768 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,239 Speaker 1: when I'm giving talk so often I will say to people, 769 00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:19,880 Speaker 1: who is the person that you talk to most in 770 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: the course of your life? You know, show of hands, 771 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:23,799 Speaker 1: I'll say that from the stage, and you get lots 772 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:25,759 Speaker 1: of hands for is it is it your partner, is 773 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 1: it your parents, is it your sibling, is it your 774 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 1: best friend? Lots of hands, But the person that we 775 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,759 Speaker 1: talked to most in the course of our lives is ourselves. 776 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,920 Speaker 1: And what we say to ourselves isn't always kind or 777 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:41,000 Speaker 1: true or useful. And and so I had this therapy 778 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,359 Speaker 1: client who was so self critical and actually pained me 779 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 1: to watch her beat herself up like that. It's like 780 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:49,440 Speaker 1: you can feel it, as therapists, you can feel in 781 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:51,919 Speaker 1: your body, you know, something that maybe you can't even 782 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 1: express with words. And I would just get this like 783 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,240 Speaker 1: not in my stomach when she would just insult herself 784 00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:59,319 Speaker 1: all the time, and she didn't even hear herself do this. 785 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 1: And I said, listen, I want you to go home, 786 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:03,399 Speaker 1: and I want you to write down everything you say 787 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,360 Speaker 1: to yourself over the course of a few days. I 788 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,239 Speaker 1: want you to listen for that voice, and then come 789 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 1: back and we'll talk about it next week. And when 790 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 1: she came back the next week, she started, you know, 791 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:14,319 Speaker 1: she had written everything down. She started to read it 792 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:16,799 Speaker 1: and she just turned to cry, and she said, I 793 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,239 Speaker 1: am such a bully to myself. And the things that 794 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 1: she said to herself were things like she she was 795 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:26,360 Speaker 1: typing an email and she said to herself, you're so stupid. Why, 796 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:29,360 Speaker 1: you know, would would you say that to a friend? 797 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:31,839 Speaker 1: Would you even think that about your friends? If your 798 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:33,880 Speaker 1: friend made a typo while typing an email where she 799 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,360 Speaker 1: caught her reflection in you know, like walking down the 800 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:39,359 Speaker 1: street and she was like, God, you look terrible, right, 801 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:42,760 Speaker 1: just the ways that we could be so self critical. 802 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:44,719 Speaker 1: And so you know, she she had this new madra 803 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,000 Speaker 1: is it kind? Is it true? As it useful? And 804 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,160 Speaker 1: it really changed the internal dialogue that she was having. 805 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 1: But nobody teaches us this. Nobody makes us aware of this. 806 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 1: Nobody teaches us that and makes us aware of that. 807 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:57,359 Speaker 1: But what I think the world teaches us a lot 808 00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,720 Speaker 1: is like that criticism is like motivate in a sense, 809 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 1: right that that somehow if you self flagellate, then you're 810 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 1: holding yourself accountable. And what self flagellation does is it 811 00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:09,839 Speaker 1: really just shroud you and shange. You start to feel 812 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,120 Speaker 1: like I'm bad, I'm worthless, I'm not good enough. And 813 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,759 Speaker 1: eventually what it does is it makes you not want 814 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,640 Speaker 1: to even try. And so what you do with self 815 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 1: compassion is it says like, even when you've done something regrettable, 816 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,560 Speaker 1: if you can have compassion and say I regret that 817 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,200 Speaker 1: and I take responsibility for it, that's the most important part. 818 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 1: I can take responsibility for something and have compassion for myself. 819 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:36,160 Speaker 1: I can hold those two things together. I can be responsible, 820 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:38,279 Speaker 1: I can I can do what I need to do 821 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,600 Speaker 1: to repair what I need to repair, and I can 822 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:43,960 Speaker 1: have compassion for the person I was in that moment, 823 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,279 Speaker 1: and I can do it differently next time. And all 824 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:49,279 Speaker 1: of that will help you to grow and change. If 825 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:51,279 Speaker 1: you self flagelate, it's going to be harder to do 826 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:53,160 Speaker 1: something different next time because you're still going to be 827 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:56,880 Speaker 1: beating yourself up. Yes, Amen beautifully said thank you, and 828 00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:58,680 Speaker 1: I want to keep going on this, but I know 829 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:00,439 Speaker 1: we're out of time, so we're gonna it's a good 830 00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 1: kind of wrap up place. But I think that is 831 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,960 Speaker 1: so important for that message to be spread and that 832 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:09,720 Speaker 1: lesson to be taught. And we can teach that through therapy, 833 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,279 Speaker 1: but we can even just teach that through conversations like 834 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:14,720 Speaker 1: this and sharing these kinds of conversations that we're having. 835 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 1: So thank you, so right, that's what That's why people say, 836 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 1: you know, why did you write this this book? Maybe 837 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:22,520 Speaker 1: you should talk to someone's because I feel like once 838 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:25,720 Speaker 1: people see what these conversations look like, they can start 839 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:27,640 Speaker 1: having them in their own lives and staying with the 840 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,040 Speaker 1: Dear Therapist podcast, right, like, once you hear these conversations, 841 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:33,920 Speaker 1: you can actually just listen to them. Um, then it 842 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,680 Speaker 1: started starts to becoming part of your own internal dialogue, 843 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 1: and it starts to becoming part of your way of 844 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,920 Speaker 1: relating to other people too. So we you know, we 845 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:43,880 Speaker 1: as therapists, I think, you know, if we could just 846 00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,719 Speaker 1: see everybody, we would, but we have limited space in 847 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 1: our practices, and so this is a way of really 848 00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:53,920 Speaker 1: democratizing therapy, democratizing emotional health, and really bringing it to 849 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,440 Speaker 1: everybody so that we can all live the lives that 850 00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,840 Speaker 1: we want to live. Yeah, yes, normalizing all of it 851 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,400 Speaker 1: for sure. So thank you so much. And obviously, guys 852 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:05,960 Speaker 1: you need to read her book. It's so good and 853 00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:08,680 Speaker 1: listen to the podcast because that's a unique experience in 854 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:11,200 Speaker 1: itself that I don't know anybody else who's doing that, 855 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,319 Speaker 1: and because as you it's you, I know that it's 856 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,319 Speaker 1: done in a in a good, helpful, useful way. So 857 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,680 Speaker 1: thank you. For having this conversation so much. Appreciate having 858 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:23,840 Speaker 1: these conversations on your podcast. I'm so glad you're doing this. Yeah. 859 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,520 Speaker 1: Well it's fun and it speaks to what we just 860 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:28,600 Speaker 1: ended with, So yeah, thank you. I think people are 861 00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:30,520 Speaker 1: going to get a lot out of this, for sure. 862 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:31,520 Speaker 1: My pleasure