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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

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Speaker 2: I am worried about Intel, No, for real.

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Speaker 1: We're recording this on October first, So I'm worried about

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Speaker 1: some other things. But sure, sure, no.

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Speaker 2: There's plenty to worry about in the world. But like,

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Speaker 2: I'm worried about.

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Speaker 3: Intel specifically, because it's all nice to talk about industrial

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Speaker 3: policy and we're going to build these you know, build

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Speaker 3: out all these industries, et cetera. But here we have

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Speaker 3: one of the true industrial giants, one of the flagship

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Speaker 3: companies of the United States getting a lot of support,

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Speaker 3: are leading company in the field of semiconductors, which is

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Speaker 3: a major strategic priority for the US, and they do

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Speaker 3: not seem to be doing.

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Speaker 4: Well at all.

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Speaker 2: The stock is absolutely dismal. They're cutting jobs.

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Speaker 3: If this is the flagship company like them and Boeing

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Speaker 3: loomed very large in my head about I guess what

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Speaker 3: I would say is like, I don't know if corporate

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Speaker 3: rot is too strong of a word, but yeah, like

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Speaker 3: corporate rot.

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Speaker 1: Not to add to your anxiety, but did you also

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Speaker 1: see some of the headlines coming out of North Carolina

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Speaker 1: about quartz sand.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know what that's all about.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of an interesting one. So after Hurricane Helene,

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Speaker 1: there's a town called Spruce Pine where apparently most of

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Speaker 1: the world's supply of pure quartz sand comes from, and

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Speaker 1: that could have an impact on the production of semiconductors.

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Speaker 1: So we get to I guess we get to unveil

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Speaker 1: the bullhorn for the bullwhip effect. Again.

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Speaker 2: We're not doing this. Apparently we are doing this again.

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Speaker 2: I did a deadlift.

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Speaker 1: One two, Jimmy okay, uh barges.

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Speaker 3: This isn't after school Special, except.

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Speaker 1: I've decided I'm going to base my entire personality going

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Speaker 1: forward on campaigning for a strategic pork reserve in the US.

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Speaker 2: Where's the best costa?

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Speaker 1: These are the important question? Is it robots taking over

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Speaker 1: the world?

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Speaker 3: No, I think that like in a couple of years,

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Speaker 3: the AI will do a really good job of making

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Speaker 3: the odd Launch podcast And people say, I don't really

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Speaker 3: need to listen to Joe and Tracy anymore.

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Speaker 2: We do have touching, the perfect welcome to lots More

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Speaker 2: where we catch up with friends about what's going on

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Speaker 2: right now.

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Speaker 1: Because even when Odd Lots is over, there's always lots

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Speaker 1: more And.

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Speaker 2: We really do have the perfect guest stacy, what's going

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Speaker 2: wrong until.

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Speaker 4: What's not going wrong? At Intel? Right now?

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Speaker 5: They're in a tough spot, right, I mean they are

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Speaker 5: embarking on a very risky and capital intensive strategy. I

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Speaker 5: say embarking, but frankly they've been along on the strategy

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Speaker 5: for quite a few years.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because CEO Pat Gelsinger came in in twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 3: and so we're like at least three years into what

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Speaker 3: is supposedly an embarkment on a new strategy. And if

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Speaker 3: I just look at the stock price, it's lower than

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Speaker 3: was in twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, in fact, you know it's I actually look, I

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Speaker 5: launched on the stock in June of two thousand and nine.

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Speaker 5: I think it was fifteen dollars and ninety four cents,

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Speaker 5: so fifteen or sixteen years ago, and it's.

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Speaker 4: Not that far off of there. Now.

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Speaker 5: It's had a bit of a balance in the recent weeks.

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Speaker 5: We can talk about why, but in general they're in

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Speaker 5: a tough spot. Yeah, I mean the biggest issue that

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Speaker 5: they're having, and we can argue, is the.

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Speaker 4: Strategy the right one or the wrong one. That's a

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Speaker 4: discussion we.

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Speaker 5: Can have, but it might be the biggest issue is

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Speaker 5: just the core business that was supposed to support them

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Speaker 5: as they rolled that strategy out is no longer really

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Speaker 5: sufficient to support it anymore.

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Speaker 4: But they maybe too far along their path to stop. Right.

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Speaker 5: The whole idea was, you know, we're gonna be doubling

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Speaker 5: down on manufacturing.

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Speaker 4: We're going to building lots of factories in the US

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Speaker 4: and everywhere else.

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Speaker 5: We're going to be building up a significant third party

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Speaker 5: foundry business to make parts not just for ourselves but

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Speaker 5: for other third party customers as well. We're getting a

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Speaker 5: lot of external funding to do this, and you know,

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Speaker 5: eventually we'll get there and it's going to be great.

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Speaker 5: But that the problem is that the you know, these

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Speaker 5: things are very you know, intensive, like they cost a

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Speaker 5: lot of money, and because of the deterioration that we've

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Speaker 5: seen in Intel's core business for a variety of reasons,

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Speaker 5: the macro's not been great. You know, they were over

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Speaker 5: earning as many were during COVID and and that bubble

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Speaker 5: is popped. They're still losing share in many of their

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Speaker 5: key markets. They've completely missed the AI revolution, which is

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Speaker 5: one of the few areas of semiconductors today that's actually

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Speaker 5: really on fire. And they effectively have nothing to show

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Speaker 5: in that as and and those markets are starting to

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Speaker 5: eat into some of the core stuff that Intel does.

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Speaker 5: That core business doesn't doesn't really support that the path

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Speaker 5: that they're on anymore, even after the subsidies and and

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Speaker 5: frankly doing some other things that are probably not you

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Speaker 5: wouldn't want to do if you didn't have to. They've

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Speaker 5: been selling parts of some of their factories to private

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Speaker 5: equity and getting cash for that. But even after all

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Speaker 5: of that, you know, it's still costing them like a

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Speaker 5: bunch of money that they don't really have anymore. They

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Speaker 5: put out some targets recently that sort of showed a

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Speaker 5: path to you know, a better companies, but in twenty thirty,

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Speaker 5: it's twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 4: Right now, that's a long ways away.

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Speaker 5: There's a lot of wood to chop between now and then,

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Speaker 5: even if they can manage to execute on that.

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Speaker 4: So they're in a tough spot.

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Speaker 1: So we are speaking with Stacey Raskin, who is of

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Speaker 1: course the semiconductor analyst over at Bernstein. We've spoken to

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Speaker 1: him before. We also have McKenzie Hawkins, who is our

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Speaker 1: colleague here at Bloomberg. McKenzie, how existential are the next Oh,

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Speaker 1: I guess, let's see October, November, December, next three months.

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Speaker 1: For Intel.

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Speaker 6: This is a crucial stretch for Intel, in part because

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Speaker 6: it's a crucial stretch for the Biden administration. The company

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Speaker 6: is the single largest beneficiary of this massive US effort

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Speaker 6: to resource semiconductor manufacturing through Call twenty twenty two Chips

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Speaker 6: in Science Act. They're in line to receive eight and

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Speaker 6: a half billion dollars in grants for projects across four

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Speaker 6: US states for commercial partners. They're also supposed to get

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Speaker 6: three billion dollars to make chips for the Pentagon and

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Speaker 6: eleven billion dollars in loans, not to mention twenty five

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Speaker 6: percent tax breaks on their US investments. There isn't really

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Speaker 6: a fear that the broader SEPSTY program will go away

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Speaker 6: after President Biden leaves office. But Intel's been negotiating this

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Speaker 6: award package with officials in the Biden administration for well

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Speaker 6: over a year now. It's not yet finalized, and they

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Speaker 6: really want to prove two officials that yes, we need

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Speaker 6: to sign these documents. We want to get money out

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Speaker 6: the door, ideally by the end of this administration, because

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Speaker 6: who really knows what will come after January, and they're

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Speaker 6: all trying to do that before they really really prove

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Speaker 6: in the technology stack on which these awards are premised.

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Speaker 3: Stacy two questions in your when you think of Intel,

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Speaker 3: how important is the aid from the US government to

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Speaker 3: its future? And when you think of the US government,

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Speaker 3: how important is Intel to the policy objectives of the

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Speaker 3: United States.

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Speaker 5: They're clearly both important. The aid from the government is

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Speaker 5: helping them. And by the way, I will say, I

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Speaker 5: don't think they're in a critical situation from a cash

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Speaker 5: standpoint right now, partially because of some.

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Speaker 4: Of those government funds.

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Speaker 5: So if you add up what they've just done, some

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Speaker 5: of the were structuring that they've just announced, the CAPEX cuts,

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Speaker 5: the op X cuts, the suspended dividend, they suspended their

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Speaker 5: dividend right, the governmental funds both from the tax credit

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Speaker 5: as well as the grants of those rolling as well

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Speaker 5: as some of those private equity funds. It's something like

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Speaker 5: forty billion dollars of incremental cash that lends on the

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Speaker 5: balance sheet like through the end of twenty five of

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Speaker 5: twenty twenty five, versus not doing anything at all. So

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Speaker 5: like again, I think their cash position is okay because

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Speaker 5: of this stuff. I don't think they're desperate. It's partially

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Speaker 5: be due to those government funds. I will say, however,

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Speaker 5: to get those grants, it's not like they don't get

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Speaker 5: an eight and a half billion dollar check like they're

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Speaker 5: milestone base. They have to do the projects and build

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Speaker 5: them out and hit the milestones and then that money

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Speaker 5: get gets apportioned. But that money is important in terms

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Speaker 5: of like how important is Intel for the for the

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Speaker 5: government's efforts. I mean, it's clearly very important. Although I

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Speaker 5: will say, you know, if if the goal is really

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Speaker 5: to get a ton of leading edge manufacturing capacity built

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Speaker 5: in the US, you could argue if the government was

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Speaker 5: only goal oriented, maybe picking Intel as their champion was

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Speaker 5: not the best way to go. There are other players

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Speaker 5: that you could have encouraged, who whether they're all building here,

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Speaker 5: but you could have encouraged, for example, somebody like a

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Speaker 5: TSMC to build a lot more here than they're doing.

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Speaker 4: Now that being set, we're not just goal already.

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Speaker 5: Other like politics is a huge piece. It's not politically

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Speaker 5: viable to do something like that. Intel is the only

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Speaker 5: US based company that can even hope to build out

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Speaker 5: a leading edge footprint, and so I understand why they've

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Speaker 5: been named the national champion, but I mean, it's just

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Speaker 5: given the issues that they're having, it does sort of

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Speaker 5: throw the eventual success of the program, especially especially around

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Speaker 5: the leading edge side, into a little bit of a loop,

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Speaker 5: like we'll have to see how things go for them.

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Speaker 6: And you think it's important to remember here. Intel is

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Speaker 6: the largest beneficiary of the Chips Act, but definitely not

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Speaker 6: the only one. The US is in line to give

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Speaker 6: more than six billion dollars to TSMC, the unambiguous industry leader.

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Speaker 6: There's also more than six billion dollars lated for Samsung,

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Speaker 6: which is building leading edge capacity in Texas. But Intel

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Speaker 6: is really important one because the Pentagon has decided that

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Speaker 6: we need an American company to make cutting edge chips

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Speaker 6: for military and intelligence purposes. They've had early conversations about

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Speaker 6: buying those chips from foreign owned foundries that are on

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Speaker 6: US soil. It's crucial that we're having TSMC building three

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Speaker 6: fabs in Arizona, and that was a commitment that the

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Speaker 6: US government got from them with the carot of these subsidies.

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Speaker 6: But Intel, I mean, Gelsinger kind of hinged his entire

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Speaker 6: turnaround plan on this US manufacturing expansion was a major

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Speaker 6: lobbyist pushing for the Ships Act, riding the coattails of

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Speaker 6: that subsidy program. And yes, you know this says really

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Speaker 6: high political stakes for the Biden administration and for industrial

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Speaker 6: policy writ large. You know, I think it's a feature,

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Speaker 6: not a bug of the program that Intel hasn't gotten

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Speaker 6: any money yet. As Stacy mentioned, these are milestone based awards.

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Speaker 6: You know, companies will get a tranch of money and

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Speaker 6: they have you know, first wafers out of their facilities.

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Speaker 6: Look at a trants of money when facilities are completed.

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Speaker 6: But for a company that is, you know, not acutely

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Speaker 6: running out of cash, but not in a great financial

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Speaker 6: position like Intel, it really matters when that money actually flows.

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Speaker 6: And the US government is still vetting the viability of

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Speaker 6: these manufacturing plans in the first place before they're willing

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Speaker 6: to sign a final agreement. All they've announced is a

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Speaker 6: preliminary award.

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Speaker 1: Is there a viable alternative to Intel? I get the

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Speaker 1: sense that maybe there isn't.

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Speaker 5: I mean, there are three companies in theory that can

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Speaker 5: do leading edge semiconductor manufacturing global It's TSMC, Samsung, and Intel.

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Speaker 5: And of those three, only really TSMC is hitting out

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Speaker 5: of the park in terms of executing to their roadmaps.

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Speaker 5: Like Intel, cole is having problems and again we can

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Speaker 5: talk about their roadmap and where that may be going,

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Speaker 5: but they've been having issues and Samsung as well as

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Speaker 5: also having issues, Like this stuff is not easy, Like yeah, I.

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Speaker 3: Always Samsung by the way, by the way, by the way,

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Speaker 3: on the day we're recording this October first, Bloomberg reporting

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Speaker 3: some substantial layoffs at Samsung and they're losing some shared

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Speaker 3: to competitors like Skhnix, et cetera in certain lines. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: just to talk about it's not just Intel having the struggles. Okay,

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Speaker 3: keep going, Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so it's the stuff is hard to do. Again,

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Speaker 5: I'm always amazed that any of it works at all.

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Speaker 4: But to McKenzie's probably one of the three.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the administration has said they want an American

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Speaker 1: company to do this, and so I guess I'm wondering, like,

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Speaker 1: are there ways that they could structure something with TSMC

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Speaker 1: or Samsung or does it have to be an American company,

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Speaker 1: in which case it seems like Intel is the only option.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, if if you want an American company to do

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Speaker 5: this stuff, they are the only option. It may be

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Speaker 5: helpful to talk about their roadmap. So Patt has talked

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Speaker 5: a lot about what he calls five nodes in four years,

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Speaker 5: and according to Intel, they're executing, although if you kind

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Speaker 5: of look at it, it's kind of kind of questionable.

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Speaker 5: I mean, they're delivering what they're calling seven animeter today

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Speaker 5: in volume. That's the old what they used to call ten.

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Speaker 5: They are now starting to ship Intel four animeter. It's

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Speaker 5: a single product that's called Meteor Lake, and in fact

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Speaker 5: is it's a client PC product. It has a tiled architecture.

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Speaker 5: There was one tile on there that's on Intel four

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Speaker 5: and the other three tiles are made it actually outsourced.

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Speaker 4: They made it TSMC, and.

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Speaker 5: The margins of that product are not very good and

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Speaker 5: it's actually it impacted their margins in the most recent quarter.

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Speaker 5: They're getting ready to now to ship another client product

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Speaker 5: which is called Lunar Lake, which actually from some of

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Speaker 5: the ben shorts looks like a decent product, but it's

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Speaker 5: one hundred percent outsource. There's no Intel technology and process

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Speaker 5: technology and it all it's all made at TSMC, and

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Speaker 5: they've talked about that further impacting their margins as we

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Speaker 5: go into next year. The big one and I think

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Speaker 5: the one that Pat is kind of betting the company

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Speaker 5: on it is what's called eighteen A.

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Speaker 4: So there were two flavors. There was a twenty eight.

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Speaker 5: Process that was supposed to come out with a product

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Speaker 5: called arrow Lake that they have canceled. So the five

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Speaker 5: nodes in four years of the canceled they're going to

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Speaker 5: jump straight.

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Speaker 4: To eighteen A.

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Speaker 5: Their characterization of that is an eighteen A is so

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Speaker 5: good they don't need twenty get twenty eight, So I

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Speaker 5: guess we'll have to see eighteen A in theory is

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Speaker 5: when they start bringing volume back from the foundries back

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Speaker 5: into their own fabs, which in theory is supposed to

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Speaker 5: make their cost structure better. And if you think about

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Speaker 5: the dream case that they laid out, the idea was,

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Speaker 5: we do this, we bring all this stuff back. It

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Speaker 5: makes our margins better because the cost are better because

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Speaker 5: we're now internal. It's a better process, so we can

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Speaker 5: take back market share and we can charge more for

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Speaker 5: our product because we can design better products. And it

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Speaker 5: gives customers like lots of confidence that things are going good,

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Speaker 5: so they're confident to put a lot of volume with us,

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Speaker 5: and we grow from there. And they talked about hitting

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Speaker 5: the manufacturing business kind of hitting break even around twenty

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Speaker 5: twenty seven and then growing to like very sizeable amounts

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Speaker 5: by twenty thirty, so that.

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Speaker 4: That's the dream. It's all riding on the success of

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Speaker 4: eighteen A.

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Speaker 5: Many of the sort of you know, kind of like

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Speaker 5: supply change ets and channels that can pick up for

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Speaker 5: eight and right, they're kind of mixed at best, I

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Speaker 5: would say. On the positive, they just announced Amazon as

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Speaker 5: a customer, and I guess Amazon was willing to have

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Speaker 5: their name attached to it, so I guess that's good.

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Speaker 4: It doesn't look like it's a high volume part.

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Speaker 5: I think it's going to take time for this to

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Speaker 5: ramp and I guess we're just waiting around and seeing

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Speaker 5: and that's probably about how long they have. You know,

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Speaker 5: in theory, eighteen A is supposed to be here next year.

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Speaker 5: They've got a low volume server part called Clearwater Force

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Speaker 5: that launches in the first half of next year. Panther Lake,

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Speaker 5: which is a higher volume client product, launches in the

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Speaker 5: second half of next year.

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Speaker 4: I guess it'll be volume, real volume in twenty twenty six.

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Speaker 5: So you got about a year a year and a

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Speaker 5: half to see whether or not they can actually manage

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Speaker 5: to make stuff in a cost effective manner for themselves

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Speaker 5: on eighteen A and then we'll see if that drives

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Speaker 5: volume or not. But that's about how long they have

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Speaker 5: I think twelve months, maybe twelve to eighteen months, and

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Speaker 5: then we'll see if this works or not. But at

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Speaker 5: this point we don't know.

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Speaker 6: And you know, Intel's ability to secure major customer commitments

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Speaker 6: is of course a really key metric for US government

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Speaker 6: officials that are trying to evaluate the viability of there

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Speaker 6: should we be giving them eight and a half billion

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Speaker 6: dollars of tax payer money for commercial manufacturing. I mean,

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Speaker 6: they already have three billion dollars set aside for the

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Speaker 6: Pentagon as a customer. But if you talk to anybody

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Speaker 6: in the chip industry, the Defense Department is a really

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Speaker 6: difficult customer. Foundaries that have been in a secure Pentagon

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Speaker 6: supply chain in the past of struggle to make a

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Speaker 6: return on products manufactured. Those fabs and Commerce Secretary Gina Raimondo,

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Speaker 6: in many ways, her legacy and her image and her

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Speaker 6: the kind of main purpose of her department is riding

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Speaker 6: a lot of the success of this program, and therefore,

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Speaker 6: in part on the success of Intel not in a

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Speaker 6: whole She's been calling up chip makers and saying, would

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Speaker 6: you consider using Intel fabs? She asked in Vidia, she

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Speaker 6: asked AMD to consider manufacturing at Intel's ohio facilities, and

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Speaker 6: you know, in Vidias in the earliest stages of evaluating

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Speaker 6: whether that's a possibility. AMD is happy with their current supplier,

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Speaker 6: which is TSMC. And so you know, as much as

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Speaker 6: the government really wants intels to succeed, the industry wants

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Speaker 6: intels to succeed, even TSMC does. Intel's a four to

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Speaker 6: five billion dollar customer of TSMC's. The custom comments just

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Speaker 6: aren't there right now, and.

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Speaker 5: There can't really you can't anything infirment. So you know,

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Speaker 5: if they can deliver, yeah, right, So I think anyone

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Speaker 5: that wants leading edge is going to evaluate them, like

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Speaker 5: why wouldn't you, Like you want second sources, you want

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Speaker 5: geographically secure supply. But I mean, if they can't deliver,

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Speaker 5: they can't deliver. If they can deliver, they can And

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Speaker 5: that's what we're waiting for. Throwing whatever money you want

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Speaker 5: to throw at it, it isn't going to solve that problem.

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Speaker 3: This gets back to like some of our first ever

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Speaker 3: episodes that we did on semiconductors years ago. We're just

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Speaker 3: about this basic challenge that like it's brutal to get

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Speaker 3: hot yields. That there's all these processes and if you

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Speaker 3: get it, if you get every process at ninety nine

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Speaker 3: point nine to nine percent, right, that still doesn't get

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Speaker 3: you the yields that you need to get. And so

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Speaker 3: their strategy is like, Okay, you're building for this product,

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Speaker 3: you're building for this end consumer, you're building, you're doing

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Speaker 3: in house, and then there's execution and the big question

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Speaker 3: mark is just this execution question and we just still

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Speaker 3: don't know.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, we don't know this. This again, even under the

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Speaker 5: best of circumstances is very difficult. You know, they're going

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Speaker 5: through a lot of other turmoil right now. So they

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Speaker 5: have clearly in the midst of a big layoff. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: they're actually like canceling some of these projects. So remember

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Speaker 5: they weren't just trying to build in the US. They

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Speaker 5: had a big Germany project with other subsidies that they

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Speaker 5: just paused. They had a packaging plant in Poland. I

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Speaker 5: think they just paused. So they don't need the capacity,

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Speaker 5: right and they don't have the money.

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Speaker 4: To pay for it. Even with the subsidies.

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Speaker 5: So there's a lot of like other like internal turmoil

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Speaker 5: that is going on there right now while they are

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Speaker 5: still trying to execute on everything else that they have

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Speaker 5: to do.

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Speaker 4: Like it doesn't make it easier.

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Speaker 6: You know, this is an intensely cyclical industry, right and

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Speaker 6: you know, when we think about what does you know,

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Speaker 6: Intel's success or failures say about the design of US

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Speaker 6: industrial policy, you have to remember the ship sacked. Biden

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Speaker 6: signed the ship sacked two years ago. That was sort

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Speaker 6: of at the earliest stages of the AI boom, and

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Speaker 6: were there were maybe warning signs about Intel, certainly, but

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Speaker 6: not kind of the flashing red light that we see now.

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Speaker 6: And so government officials not known necessarily for being super

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Speaker 6: nimble or having to evaluate that in real time. We

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Speaker 6: had a lot of preliminary announcements earlier this year. We

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Speaker 6: saw basically a multi billion dollar announcement a week in

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Speaker 6: March and April, and markets change, company dynamics change. And

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Speaker 6: I think the challenge is that, you know, there's a

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Speaker 6: sort of lack of understanding even among folks who pay

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Speaker 6: attention to this sometimes in Washington, about whether the money

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Speaker 6: has actually gone out the door. It hasn't but the

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Speaker 6: public is expecting that. Intel is expecting that. I mean,

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Speaker 6: the state of Ohio is investing two billion dollars in

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Speaker 6: Intel's Ohio facility. Those plans are contingent on getting money

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Speaker 6: from the US government, but officials also have to evaluate,

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Speaker 6: you know, if a company, you know, Intel or anybody else,

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Speaker 6: isn't able to execute on the timeline that we set out,

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Speaker 6: at the scale that we set out, at what point

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Speaker 6: do we start talking about other options of where to

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Speaker 6: spend this money. Thirty nine billion dollars set aside for grants,

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Speaker 6: that's a lot of taxpayer dollars.

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Speaker 1: I just remember, the first time we ever had Stacy

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Speaker 1: on was back in twenty twenty, which is kind of

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Speaker 1: a blur for me. But Stacy, you were bearish on

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Speaker 1: Intel even back then. In fact, I think like the

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Speaker 1: title of the episode was something like, why the US's

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Speaker 1: number one like semiconductor company is doing terribly something like that.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious, in twenty twenty four, is there anything that

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Speaker 1: would that you could possibly see that would induce you

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Speaker 1: to be bullish on Intel? Like what would they need

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Speaker 1: to do to prove their business case?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: I mean, look, so they gave some targets. But like

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Speaker 5: I said, which we're twenty thirty, my biggest takeaway from

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Speaker 5: that was from those presidents was come.

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Speaker 4: Back in twenty thirty. Right, call me twenty thirty.

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Speaker 5: But if you sort of if I sort of started

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Speaker 5: to articulate some of that dream thesis earlier, but if

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Speaker 5: you think about it, you know it was, like I said,

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Speaker 5: they execute on the new road maps, they take market share,

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Speaker 5: you know, they build out their foundry business.

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Speaker 4: And if you look at the targets, and again I'm

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Speaker 4: going to refrain from.

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Speaker 5: Giving like investment conclusions on this podcast, but just factually,

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Speaker 5: what they presented for their twenty thirty model had them

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Speaker 5: doing roughly one hundred billion dollars in total revenues, roughly

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Speaker 5: sixty billion on their product groups, forty billion on their

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Speaker 5: foundry manufacturing side. Of that forty billion, twenty five billion

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Speaker 5: was internal revenues.

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Speaker 4: What they're actually doing now, by the way, is they.

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Speaker 5: Are charging their internal groups effectively a price to use

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Speaker 5: the manufacturing base. So the internal does have to buy

436
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Speaker 5: the wafers from the internal manufacturing when they're using and

437
00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,720
Speaker 5: the net revenue nets out at the end. But you

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Speaker 5: had forty billion in foundry twenty five billion internal and

439
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,040
Speaker 5: fifteen billion external, So it'd be if you nit up

440
00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:45,840
Speaker 5: the twenty five billion, it would be seventy five billion

441
00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:48,080
Speaker 5: in total revenues. The company's doing a little over fifty

442
00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:52,440
Speaker 5: right now, maybe fifty billion. That fifteen billion in external

443
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,000
Speaker 5: foundry revenue would be double what Samsung does in foundry

444
00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:55,720
Speaker 5: revenues today.

445
00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:56,920
Speaker 4: So it's pretty big.

446
00:20:57,240 --> 00:20:58,800
Speaker 5: But if you start to run numbers and then they

447
00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:01,360
Speaker 5: give some margin targets, you start to run numbers like that,

448
00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,080
Speaker 5: it looks like a good it's good. Like they're they're

449
00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:08,040
Speaker 5: generating cash, they're making profits, right, and that would be

450
00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:10,080
Speaker 5: you know, that would be a scenario where where things

451
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:12,760
Speaker 5: could be great, right. I think on the other side

452
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:14,120
Speaker 5: of it, you know, I get a lot of calls

453
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,800
Speaker 5: these days unlike the breakup value, Like what would it

454
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:17,560
Speaker 5: be would it call?

455
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, the qualcot, Yeah the QUI.

456
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:22,760
Speaker 4: Let's talk about that because that was in the news recently.

457
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,320
Speaker 5: There was a newsflow that suggested Qualcom may be interested

458
00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:30,000
Speaker 5: in buying them, and we run the numbers on it,

459
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,040
Speaker 5: as I want to do, and look, I can argue

460
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:37,640
Speaker 5: for Qualcom potentially, you know, there's there's a diversification strategy

461
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,480
Speaker 5: Qualcom's revenues are if I have the licensing and it's

462
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:43,200
Speaker 5: eighty percent handsets, and there's a diversification story there for Qualcom,

463
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,119
Speaker 5: but it is slow going. And you know, Intel, if

464
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:47,920
Speaker 5: I just look at the product side of it, you know, look,

465
00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,000
Speaker 5: if you just slap them together, you'd have a company

466
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,159
Speaker 5: that was I don't know, a third handsets, a third client,

467
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,640
Speaker 5: maybe fifteen percent data center. You'd have some auto in there.

468
00:21:55,960 --> 00:22:00,399
Speaker 5: It would look more diverse and have more and more drivers. Right. Issues,

469
00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:02,400
Speaker 5: I can't make it work if the fabs go along

470
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:05,560
Speaker 5: with it, oh right, And that's the problem because it's big.

471
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,120
Speaker 5: If you stock or qualk them, it would be massively deluded.

472
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,040
Speaker 5: And you start adding even a little bit of cash,

473
00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,600
Speaker 5: the leverage gets to tow untenable levels. And so now

474
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:15,480
Speaker 5: to get back to the breakup, these says, this is

475
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:18,639
Speaker 5: my biggest issue with it. Intel is clearly prepping to

476
00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:22,080
Speaker 5: split the company between products and manufacturing at some point.

477
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:24,359
Speaker 5: They've separated out the financials and they've even put it

478
00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:27,400
Speaker 5: in an independent subsidiary. The issues right now, the foundry

479
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,720
Speaker 5: cannot stand on its own if if they were to devestigate,

480
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,400
Speaker 5: goes bankrupt immediately, it's losing twelve billion dollars a year

481
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,840
Speaker 5: and it's got one customer, right Intel. So that's not

482
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,119
Speaker 5: viable until they build a third party business, and that

483
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 5: still becomes questionable.

484
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:40,080
Speaker 4: Can they build that or not.

485
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:42,760
Speaker 5: I don't think they can just sell the factory, say

486
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,120
Speaker 5: to TSMC or somebody like. I don't think TSMC wants

487
00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:47,360
Speaker 5: to run them. Right again, they're losing a bunch of money,

488
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,440
Speaker 5: and TSMC's process flow is completely different, I think hypothetically,

489
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:54,520
Speaker 5: and this gets to the regula, you could just you

490
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 5: scrap them, right, you sell the tools for whatever there were,

491
00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 5: but maybe that covers your restructuring and you go a

492
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,240
Speaker 5: whole to outsource stand So this is what AMD did,

493
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:04,840
Speaker 5: like effectively back from twenty eight to like twenty fourteen.

494
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:06,480
Speaker 4: That was sort of where they ended up.

495
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:08,440
Speaker 5: My issue with that is, at least right now, I

496
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:09,879
Speaker 5: don't think that's politically vital.

497
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've just given all the conversations we've been having,

498
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:13,679
Speaker 4: and so that's the thing.

499
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,679
Speaker 5: I don't know those fabs unless they can build the mountain,

500
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,200
Speaker 5: actually build those businesses they're in income. This is one

501
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,320
Speaker 5: could if you were but that it's maybe there's you know,

502
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,159
Speaker 5: maybe there's value to break up. But I think you

503
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,120
Speaker 5: have to destroy the company down locked. I don't think

504
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 5: we're ready to do that right now.

505
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 6: And to the point about political viability, that raises a

506
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 6: really important question of you know, it is the Commerce

507
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 6: Department and Secretary of Gena Raimondo's priority to get these

508
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:39,879
Speaker 6: fabs up and running in the US. The minute that

509
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,960
Speaker 6: we start talking about in acquisition, that gets kicked over

510
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,720
Speaker 6: to anti trust folks. And we don't know that Lena

511
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:48,720
Speaker 6: con that's see will have the same priorities as Gino Raimondo.

512
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,440
Speaker 6: It's a really really interesting test. And you know, right

513
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 6: now there's obviously been a lot of news about Qualcom.

514
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,760
Speaker 6: We also saw ARM make an approach for Intel's design

515
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 6: business and until said no. But ARM wasn't even interested

516
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 6: in the manufacturing operation. And it's hard to see you know,

517
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,479
Speaker 6: anybody who's been working on the Chips Act interested in

518
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 6: any type of acquisition that wouldn't see Intel move forward

519
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 6: with its US factories. But who wants to take on

520
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:15,159
Speaker 6: one hundred billion dollars worth of manufacturing investments on American

521
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,199
Speaker 6: soil that don't seem likely to turn a profit.

522
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 3: This is the problem. The main thing we want in

523
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 3: this country is not advanced chips. We want the ability

524
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 3: for American companies to be able to produce advanced chips,

525
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 3: and there's no way to just sort of financially engineer

526
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 3: your way out of investments that aren't delivering on that.

527
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 3: Like we can talk about all kinds of combinations, we

528
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 3: can talk about all kinds of whatever, but they're right, like.

529
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,160
Speaker 1: This is the core problem that money can't see.

530
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly right.

531
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:46,879
Speaker 5: What you would need is somebody to go in and

532
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 5: capitalize these ascid This is kind of what AMD did

533
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:51,119
Speaker 5: back back in two thousand and eight. You know, they

534
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 5: sold their factories to the Middle East, Tabu Dhabi, to

535
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 5: the bottle of them, but they were bleeding, right, this is.

536
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 4: Actually what formed global founderies. Say Global Founderies actually.

537
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,160
Speaker 5: Only profitable day because they gave up on the leading

538
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 5: edge and AMD actually like ditched them and they went

539
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 5: whole hogged at TSMC back in the days. But that

540
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:09,400
Speaker 5: was the path they had, like a deep pocketed investor

541
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 5: who apparently didn't really care about making decisions that were

542
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:13,920
Speaker 5: necessarily economically motivated.

543
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 4: I mean clearly right now.

544
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:17,160
Speaker 5: It's like you were just to see something like with Intel,

545
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 5: you need something that like investor levels would be one

546
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:21,640
Speaker 5: or two orders of magnitude higher than what we saw

547
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 5: back then with AMD and their fabs, you know, ten,

548
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 5: fIF fifteen, or twenty years ago.

549
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 4: And I don't know, like where would that come from.

550
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 5: Like I've had people suggest, oh, the government could do it,

551
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:32,480
Speaker 5: but I mean, the government's already funding them, like they

552
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 5: don't have any other.

553
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 4: Like dollars that are allocated.

554
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 5: And I've had people suggest, oh, Intel's customers could do that,

555
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 5: but if in those customers were interested in supporting, they

556
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 5: could put foundry volume there. They don't need to like

557
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 5: buy out the manufacturing and support the manufacturing assets, like

558
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 5: I don't.

559
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 4: This is what I meant when I talked earlier.

560
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,439
Speaker 5: I said, I, you know, they're the business as it

561
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,359
Speaker 5: stands doesn't necessarily support the path along the strategy, but

562
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:55,919
Speaker 5: they may be too late and maybe too late for

563
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:56,920
Speaker 5: them to stop what they're doing.

564
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,360
Speaker 4: This is kind of what I meant, So I kind

565
00:25:59,400 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 4: of stuck.

566
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 1: So I know, we've been focused on the problems at Intel,

567
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,120
Speaker 1: but I joked earlier that we might have to get

568
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 1: the bullwhip bullhorn back out because of what's been happening

569
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 1: in North Carolina how seriously should we take those headlines?

570
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:15,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean so.

571
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 5: For those of you that don't know, spruce primee is

572
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 5: one of the largest global sources something called high purity quartz.

573
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 5: High puriody quartz is used to make the crucibles that

574
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 5: hold the silicon melt that are used to make silicon

575
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 5: wafers for semiconductor manufacturing. The way you make silicon wafers

576
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 5: by the ways, you have a big cauldron effectively of

577
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,479
Speaker 5: melted silicon. You dope it with all with specific amounts

578
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 5: of impurities to get the properties you want, and then

579
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 5: you touch a little piece of single crystal silicon to

580
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 5: this molten silicon and you start to pull it up,

581
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 5: and you rotate the crucible as you're doing this, and

582
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 5: you pull out this effectively a big inget. It's called

583
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 5: a bull of silicon. Who think can be I don't know,

584
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:54,119
Speaker 5: twelve or fifteen feet high at the end of it.

585
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 1: That sounds so satisfying.

586
00:26:55,600 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 5: Actually, it's called the Sharalski process or the CZ it's

587
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 5: really really cool, and you can control the diameter of

588
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 5: this bull via the pull speed and the rotational speed

589
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 5: of this cauldron. And then they slice this thing up

590
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 5: and they make silicon wafers out of it. So the

591
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 5: high purity court to the ultri purity courts from Spruce

592
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 5: Pine and a few other places used to make the

593
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,199
Speaker 5: quartz crucibles that holds the milk, and it is one

594
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 5: of the largest sources. And the area just got pounded,

595
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 5: I mean be inundated by Hurricane Helene.

596
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 3: So the method is named after Polish scientist Jon Scheralski.

597
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:27,680
Speaker 2: God, there really are a lot of.

598
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 3: Steps in semiconductor manufacture. The crucible.

599
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, this is just to make the wafers by the

600
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:35,640
Speaker 5: process been around for over one hundred years.

601
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 4: Like it's a pretty remarkable Anyways.

602
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 3: Mckennessee lawyer here, we're about to wrap any questions as

603
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,639
Speaker 3: a journalist, anything you need to ask Stacy.

604
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 6: Oh gosh, I mean the big question is doesn't even fail?

605
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 6: What do they have to do to not fail? And

606
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 6: when we think about, you know, large, what does this

607
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 6: policy need to look like to not justic scene and

608
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,879
Speaker 6: tell about to saying the ecosystem overall? Stacey, if you

609
00:27:57,960 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 6: had to design a ship sacked too, what would it

610
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:00,160
Speaker 6: look like?

611
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 5: Oh? Yeah, I mean first just done, Intel, Like I'm

612
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 5: not gonna knock them. I think their biggest mistakes were

613
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 5: not necessarily the strategy.

614
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 4: And we can argue with strategy yes or no.

615
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 5: But their biggest mistake I think was coming in and

616
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,159
Speaker 5: I mean when look when Pack got there, he kind

617
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 5: of sounded more like a cheerleader than the CEO. I

618
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 5: mean it was the AMD's in a review mirror, and

619
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 5: he had these ludicrous targets that they were hiring to.

620
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 5: I mean, he should have come in and said, look,

621
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 5: I'm so happy to be back get intell, but like

622
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 5: you're gonna have to be patient.

623
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 4: It's going to be a slug.

624
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 1: Wait till twenty thirty.

625
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 5: I have to fix yeah, And it was always it

626
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 5: took ten years to break it.

627
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 4: Why would it take less than ten years to fix that?

628
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:35,919
Speaker 4: It was always going to take the twenty thirty.

629
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 1: En I'm tempted to put this in my performance review.

630
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: Wait till twenty thirty and see.

631
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 4: That's talked lately.

632
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 5: He wished that he took like harder actions on costs

633
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 5: and everything earlier.

634
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 4: Clearly they should have done that right.

635
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 5: Instead, he went on a hiring spreel, you know, like

636
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 5: headcount was up twenty one thousand employees in the seven

637
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 5: quarters after he took the job, and then they had

638
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 5: to lay off. Then they started hiring again. Now they're

639
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 5: doing a bigger laugh. It's demoralizing. So those are clearly

640
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 5: mistakes above and beyond. Again, we can talk about the

641
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 5: strategy or not, but I certainly would have recommended they take.

642
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 4: A harder line right right when they got there.

643
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 5: In terms of the Chip to Act itself, I'm not

644
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 5: going to say it's not successful. So the dollar amounts

645
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 5: aren't actually that. They're thirty nine billion dollars for manufacturing.

646
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 5: Plus you know, the tax got to probably be as

647
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 5: big or bigger, you know, over like five years for

648
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 5: the whole industry. Is actually not that big, but it

649
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 5: is stimulating a lot of other incremental investment. And like

650
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:29,719
Speaker 5: the majority of the actual dollars that eventually will get

651
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 5: spent or not coming from the Chips Actor, It's coming

652
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 5: from the companies themselves, I mean, as it should so

653
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 5: as a mechanism to stimulate like domestic investment in SEMIS,

654
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 5: I think it is a success. Could we use more sure,

655
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 5: although you have to even talk about its cyclical industry.

656
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 5: You have to think about what's the right time in

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Speaker 5: place to spend these dollars and in terms of like

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Speaker 5: betting on Intel, what was a national champion. I mean

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Speaker 5: that may or may not have been a good idea,

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00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 5: but again, I don't know what choice they had just

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Speaker 5: given the political realities of what they're doing. It's again

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Speaker 5: I won't knock them, and it's a good first step.

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Speaker 5: I just helped the wear with the political warrelhol is

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Speaker 5: there to continue again. We've got an administration change coming up,

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Speaker 5: and who the heck knows what's going to happen.

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Speaker 4: I don't know, but I hope they can continue with this.

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Speaker 3: Lots More is produced by Carmen Rodriguez and dash El Bennett,

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Speaker 3: with help from Moses Onam and kil Brooks.

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Speaker 1: Our sound engineer is Blake Maples. Sage Bauman is the

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Speaker 1: head of Bloomberg Podcasts.

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Speaker 3: Please rate, review, and subscribe to Odd, Lots and Lots

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00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 3: More on your favorite podcast platforms.

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Speaker 1: And remember that Bloomberg subscribers can listen to all our

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Speaker 1: podcasts at free by connecting through Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening.

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Speaker 1: I just realized it's Stacy, Tracy and McKenzie. Oh you're

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Speaker 1: the odd one out show. Joey