WEBVTT - Creating excellent conversations, with Charles Duhigg 0:00:02.960 --> 0:00:06.600 Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:08.720 --> 0:00:13.720 Good Morning, This is Laura, Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. 0:00:14.360 --> 0:00:17.360 Today's episode is going to be a longer one part 0:00:17.400 --> 0:00:20.239 of the series where I interview fascinating people about how 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:22.880 they take their days from great to awesome and any 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:25.560 advice they have for the rest of us. So today 0:00:25.640 --> 0:00:28.920 I'm delighted to welcome Charles Duhig back to Before Breakfast. 0:00:29.280 --> 0:00:32.720 Charles is the author of several best selling books, including 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:36.440 the Power of Habit and Super Communicators, which is newly 0:00:36.479 --> 0:00:37.480 out in paperbacks. 0:00:37.520 --> 0:00:38.920 So Charles, welcome to the show. 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:40.360 Thanks for having me. 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:42.840 Yeah, really excited to have you back. 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:45.400 So, if we have any new listeners who've joined us 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:46.800 in the last year or so, maybe you could tell 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:48.599 everybody just a little bit about yourself. 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:52.360 Absolutely, I'm an author. I wrote the book The Power 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:55.680 of Habit, and also my most recent book is Super Communicators, 0:00:56.120 --> 0:00:58.800 and I'm a writer at the New Yorker magazine previously 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:01.800 with The New York Times. I write about business and 0:01:01.840 --> 0:01:05.240 investigations and tech for the most part. 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:09.319 In AI, Absolutely, so, I know you have written about 0:01:09.400 --> 0:01:12.080 a ton of different topics, but I thought, in our 0:01:12.160 --> 0:01:14.520 time here today we could focus a little bit on 0:01:14.720 --> 0:01:18.360 your most recent book with communication and in particular how 0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:22.840 better communication can save us time, because that was a 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:25.639 big thing for people who listen to this show. So first, 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:30.000 what tends to go wrong with communication that winds up 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:31.640 being a major time suck? 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:35.559 Yeah. Absolutely, it's a great question because oftentimes, when we're 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:38.760 in a conversation and we want to actually communicate with 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:41.840 the other person and miscommunication is happening, which means they 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:44.880 can't understand us, we can't understand them. The consequences are 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:47.199 pretty dire, right. They can go off and spend days 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:49.600 working on a project without understanding that you actually asked 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:52.480 for something different, or there can be these hurt feelings. 0:01:52.560 --> 0:01:55.760 So for this miscommunication and what's often happening there is 0:01:55.800 --> 0:02:00.440 that people are having different kinds of conversations without realizing it. Right, 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:04.200 what neuroscience tells us is that almost all discussions fall 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:08.160 into one of three buckets. There are these practical conversations 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:12.240 where we're talking about plans and making choices together and 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:16.080 solving problems. But then there's emotional conversations where I tell 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:17.960 you what I'm feeling and I don't want you to 0:02:18.040 --> 0:02:20.679 solve my feelings. I want you to empathize, I want 0:02:20.720 --> 0:02:24.040 you to relate to me. And then finally, there's social conversations, 0:02:24.080 --> 0:02:26.120 which is about how you and I relate to each 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:29.280 other in society and the identities that are important to us. 0:02:29.960 --> 0:02:32.680 And all three of these different kinds of conversations are important, 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:35.480 and frankly, all three of them might happen during a 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:38.800 long discussion or a big discussion. But what researchers have 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:41.440 found is if we aren't having the same kind of 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:44.360 conversation at the same moment, I cannot hear what you 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:46.320 are trying to tell me, and you cannot fully hear me, 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:49.520 and in fact will feel disconnected from each other. So 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:52.119 if I'm telling you how like, oh, go ahead. 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:54.480 No, it's just gonna say that's interesting, because you know, 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:57.560 when we're talking about how bad communication saves us time, 0:02:57.600 --> 0:02:59.560 I was going to say it would even just be 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:02.160 the back and forth, like having you know, ten different 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:06.120 messages go back and forth of trying to figure something out. 0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:08.160 But you're saying it's it's not even so much that 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:10.600 is that people are having a different conversation. 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:12.160 Well, and oftentimes that back and forth. In fact, one 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:14.520 of the things that we know about productive conversations is 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:15.960 that they tend to involve a lot of what's known 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:18.600 as ping ponging, Right, Like I'll say something and then 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:19.799 you kind of pick up on it, and you might 0:03:19.800 --> 0:03:22.160 interrupt me, and then I'll interrupt you, and like that 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:24.799 means that we're both involved in the conversation. We're really 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:27.680 hearing each other. It's not that the goal is to 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:30.600 make conversations as brief as possible, because if you think 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:33.080 about it, if the goal of a conversation is simply 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:37.880 to import impart information, then it shouldn't really be a conversation. 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:40.640 I should just tell you, Laura, the weather today is this, 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:43.800 and so therefore you should wear a raincoat. But I 0:03:43.800 --> 0:03:46.440 think what's important is that when we are in a conversation, 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:48.880 we're actually trying to learn from each other. We're trying 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:51.560 to share our own perspective, and to do that, we 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:53.920 have to be able to hear the other person. And 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:55.360 that means we have to get a ligned on what 0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:56.720 kind of conversation we're having. 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:00.200 So, what are some best practices then for make making 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:03.119 sure that we are having an effective conversation? 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:05.880 Absolutely so, the first and most important thing is to 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:07.480 ask more questions. One of the things that we know 0:04:07.520 --> 0:04:10.520 about consistent supercommunicators, and we're all super communicators at one 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:13.520 time or another, but consistent supercommunicators people who can connect 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:16.080 with almost anyone, is that they tend to ask ten 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:19.000 to twenty times as many questions as the average person. 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:21.800 And some of those questions don't even register as questions. 0:04:21.880 --> 0:04:23.320 Are things like oh, oh, what'd you think about that? 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:24.920 Or what'd you say next? Or what do you think 0:04:24.920 --> 0:04:29.320 about this? They're invitations to a conversation. But some of 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:32.040 the questions are what are known as deep questions. And 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:34.360 a deep question is something that asks about our values 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:38.080 or beliefs, or our experiences. And that can sound a 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:39.960 little intimidating, but it's as simple as if you meet 0:04:39.960 --> 0:04:43.039 someone who's a doctor, for instance, instead of asking them, oh, 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:45.280 what hospital do you work at, you can ask them, oh, 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:47.840 what made you decide to go to medical school? Right? 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:50.640 That second question, that second question is actually an invitation 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:53.159 for someone to tell me something about themselves that's real, 0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:57.520 and that's how we tend to get aligned. That's the 0:04:57.600 --> 0:05:00.120 best practice for getting aligned with the other person, making 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:01.840 sure we're having the same kind of conversation at the 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:02.400 same moment. 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:04.960 Yeah, well, I'm curious about. 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:07.400 I mean, you know, that's one thing for if we're 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:10.880 having a face to face person, you know, in person conversation, 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:14.200 but so many of these conversations take place like back 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:17.000 and forth over email. Are there way is to make 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:20.599 sure that we are communicating more effectively in that medium. 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:22.160 Yeah, there's a couple of things that we know about 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:24.400 email in particular. The first is that asking questions on 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:27.279 email is actually even more powerful. Right, So if you 0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:28.920 just have two people saying this is what I think, 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:30.600 this is what I think, that's not really going to 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:33.480 work out. But if somebody says, look, I'm just wondering, like, 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:35.080 like you said that this was really important to you, 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:36.719 Can you just give me a little bit of background 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:39.320 on why it's important to you. That's as easy to 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:41.200 do in an email as it is at face to face. 0:05:41.760 --> 0:05:43.440 But we do know that some of the things about 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:46.080 email that are true are that, first of all, it 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:49.320 tends to be there's a set of rules around email 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:52.279 that we've all internalized, but sometimes we forget to remind 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:55.760 ourselves of We know, for instance, that sarcasm does not 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:57.920 work an email. Right when I'm speaking to you, can 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:00.360 hear the sarcasm in my voice. When I'm type something, 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:02.839 you don't know if I'm being serious or sarcastic. We 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:08.600 also know that politeness pays huge dividends when we're conversing online. 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:12.120 The simply saying please and thank you oftentimes, and studies 0:06:12.120 --> 0:06:15.520 show this can bring down the temperature of a conversation significantly. 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:19.960 But equally, the thing about email is that it's asynchronous, right. 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:22.200 That's really one of the huge benefits of it is 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:24.040 that it's immediate and when I hit send, you get 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:26.719 it right away. But also I can hit send tonight 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:28.679 and you don't have to look at it until tomorrow morning. 0:06:29.200 --> 0:06:32.760 And so I think recognizing that an asynchronous kind of 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:36.360 communication sometimes means you need to explain something a little 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:38.720 bit more. Oh, last night, you know, I went home 0:06:38.760 --> 0:06:43.120 with my wife and we had this conversation. Really, communication 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:46.640 is about trying to over communicate, or at least thinking 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:49.600 about how we're communicating. And it's not hard, it doesn't 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:52.000 take much time. But the people who are the best 0:06:52.000 --> 0:06:54.200 communicators are the ones who just spend half a percent 0:06:54.279 --> 0:06:56.120 more thinking about what they're saying. 0:06:56.680 --> 0:06:59.880 And what about in meetings, for instance, I wonder if 0:06:59.880 --> 0:07:03.919 this sort of norms around communication that can make meetings 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:07.560 more effective and hopefully, you know, not drag on as 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:08.720 long as many tend to do. 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:11.720 Yeah, there's actually a lot of research into how to 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:15.240 communicate in meetings, and the goal of all this communication 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:17.520 in a meeting is to create what's known as psychological safety. 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:21.080 Psychological safety is the most important characteristic in bringing a 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:24.120 team together, allowing them to feel like a cohesive unit 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:26.760 as opposed to just individuals operating next to each other. 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:30.280 And there's two things that researchers have found particularly helped 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:34.040 create psychological safety. The first is what's known as equality 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:39.440 in conversational turntaking. If you have dominated the conversation, you've 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:41.680 spoken way more than anyone else. That's not a great sign. 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:44.920 On the other hand, if you've spoken way less than 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:48.240 everyone else, that might mean that you're not being invited 0:07:48.320 --> 0:07:50.880 or feel comfortable enough to voice your opinion. And so 0:07:50.960 --> 0:07:53.480 for a leader of a meeting like that, what's really 0:07:53.520 --> 0:07:55.520 important is to draw people out. Hey, Susie, you know 0:07:55.840 --> 0:07:58.240 you mentioned this thing last meeting, and I haven't heard 0:07:58.320 --> 0:07:59.720 much from you. Tell me what you think about this. 0:08:00.240 --> 0:08:02.520 That's the first thing in quality and conversational turn ticking 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:06.800 The second important tactic is what's known as ostentatious listening. 0:08:07.000 --> 0:08:10.200 And it's particularly important that leaders do this that when 0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:14.360 I listen, I make it obvious to you that I'm listening. Hey, Jim, 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:16.360 that's a really good point you brought up. Let me 0:08:16.400 --> 0:08:18.320 repeat it back just to make sure I understand it, 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:22.320 or you know, Frank, I remember earlier this meeting you 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:24.320 said this, and I'm wondering how it connects to this 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:28.320 new idea. What happens when a leader engages in ostentatious 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:32.200 listening is that other people start to echo him, or 0:08:32.240 --> 0:08:36.400 mirror him, or copy him or her, almost unconsciously, and 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:38.080 so as a result, what you get is a room 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:40.800 where people are talking up in roughly equal measure. And 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:42.360 that doesn't mean the same number of minutes or the 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:45.240 same number of words, but roughly everyone has a chance 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:48.040 to participate, and that we are all showing that we 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:50.000 are listening to each other, which means we are actually 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:50.840 listening to each other. 0:08:51.360 --> 0:08:53.920 That's going to work, wonders Yeah, Well, I love the 0:08:53.960 --> 0:08:56.880 phrase ostentatious listening. I'm going to have to start using 0:08:56.920 --> 0:08:59.440 that one. That's great to going above and beyond with 0:08:59.480 --> 0:09:01.320 the listening. Well, We're going to take a quick ad 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:03.200 break and then we'll be back talking with more about 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:13.120 ways that better communication can save us time. So I'm 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:16.600 here talking with Charles Doujig about ways we can communicate better. 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:20.880 We've been talking about communication and email communication in meetings. 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:24.360 I want to throw out one of the sort of 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:30.440 most difficult ways to communicate, the group text that you know, 0:09:30.600 --> 0:09:33.000 I think many people have had the experience of things 0:09:33.000 --> 0:09:35.079 sort of going off the rails, or even a simple 0:09:35.080 --> 0:09:38.640 thing of trying to get everyone together for lunch. You 0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:41.640 know that many people are involved, it goes many directions. 0:09:41.720 --> 0:09:43.840 You want everyone to be heard, but sort of making 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:46.439 a decision with five people is often very difficult. I 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:48.880 wonder if there are ways we can communicate effectively in 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:50.120 those situations. 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:52.880 Yeah. Absolutely, Well let me ask you, so, when's the 0:09:52.960 --> 0:09:55.120 last time you were in a group text that you 0:09:55.160 --> 0:09:56.360 thought went well. 0:09:57.360 --> 0:09:59.080 Well, I've had a few. I've had a few. 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:02.080 You know. Usually it's if you've gotten together recently and 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:04.160 you're all sort of chatting about. 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:05.040 Something that just happened. 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:08.960 You know, you're rehashing what happened, sharing the inside jokes 0:10:09.000 --> 0:10:10.920 of what came out of that, and laughing on it 0:10:10.960 --> 0:10:12.720 as sort of a way to send everyone off into 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:13.160 the world. 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:16.680 Yeah, and I think what's happening there is that because 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:20.240 you are you've been together recently, there's kind of an 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:24.559 almost meta conversation happening in that group text. Right, remember 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:27.400 when we were all together and Jane said this one thing, 0:10:27.840 --> 0:10:29.720 like I'm going to make a joke about that. That'll 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:33.120 harken back to it. What we know is that one 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:34.840 of the best things you can do for communication is 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:38.080 engaging what's known as meta communication, which is very simple 0:10:38.120 --> 0:10:40.480 and time efficient. It's a matter of saying, hey, look, 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:43.160 my goal in this conversation. I want to have a 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:45.600 meeting with you to sit down, and my goal is X. 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:48.800 That's a meta conversation. I've told you what my goal 0:10:48.880 --> 0:10:50.960 is for this conversation, and I might ask you what's your goal, 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:52.679 like what do you hope to get out of this discussion. 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:58.640 Oftentimes in group chats, we don't engage in meta conversation. Right, 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:01.640 So somebody says, hey, you know, I'm wondering if you 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:05.679 should go see that movie on Friday night, And you 0:11:05.679 --> 0:11:09.000 don't know, are they proposing this, are they asking it? 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:11.600 If you guys really want to go? Are they suggesting 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:14.160 that we actually make a plan, and so as a result, 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:17.079 one person says like, oh, yeah, that sounds good, and 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:19.120 another person says, yeah, I can be there at six 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:21.080 fifty five in the evening and I'll meet you guys 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:24.040 exactly in front of the theater. So what's happening there 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:26.360 is that people are having different kinds of conversations. Right, 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:29.000 someone's making a general comment, someone's making a specific comment. 0:11:29.800 --> 0:11:31.280 The other thing that happens in a group text, and 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:33.720 this is true group emails, is that nobody feels the 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:37.280 obligation to respond because it's a group that was sent 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:39.080 the message was sent to, So for the sender, it 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:42.000 feels very very lonely that they send, you know, twenty 0:11:42.040 --> 0:11:43.480 of their best friends, Hey, does anyone want to go 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:45.760 to the movies? No one person responds. I think that 0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:48.400 they all their friends hate them. But it's actually because 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:51.160 when you're in a group, you don't feel any obligation 0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:53.360 to respond. You assume that it's up to the group. 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:55.320 So the things that we can do that can make 0:11:55.320 --> 0:11:57.640 them better is just to be very explicit about why 0:11:57.679 --> 0:12:00.800 we are texting. Hey, guys, I want to see if 0:12:00.800 --> 0:12:03.439 you'd like to go see the movie on Tuesday. If so, 0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:05.480 then can you meet at the movie theater at six 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:09.600 fifty five. Please respond to me either privately or or 0:12:09.679 --> 0:12:12.880 over the group. Okay, that's great, Right. Everyone knows exactly 0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:15.200 what they're supposed to do, they know why you're having 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:18.319 this conversation, and they can easily opt out and say, hey, 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:21.560 I'm not interested. But that's what often happens in group 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:24.480 text is that the meta conversation gets very muddled. 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:25.720 Well, so what I'm. 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:28.439 Hearing you say here is that conversations in general need 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:31.720 an intention, right. I mean, we run our mouths all 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:34.240 the time, we have no idea why we are doing so. 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:38.880 But pausing to think about why I am having this conversation, 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:42.280 either by email, by group text, by in person with 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:44.280 another person can go a long way. 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:46.439 Well, and it's actually a little bit tiger than that, 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:50.000 which is that every conversation you have already has an intention. Right. 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:51.960 You are opening your mouth for a reason. Now you 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:53.800 might not be aware of what that reason is, and 0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:56.240 that reason might be I want to make my friend laugh, 0:12:56.679 --> 0:12:59.440 or I want to find out how my spouse's day went, 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:02.439 or I want them to understand that I'm angry. There 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:05.079 is an intention behind every time we open our mouth. 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:08.600 There's two questions. Number one, do we know what our 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:11.000 intention is? Have we taken just half a second to say, 0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:14.360 like why am I having this conversation? And number two, 0:13:14.880 --> 0:13:17.400 are we trying to communicate clearly what that intention is 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:20.280 to the other person and ask them what their intention is? 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:23.760 If we do, the conversation is going to get much better? Yeah? 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:26.920 Absolutely, Well, I wonder if there's sort of a I mean, 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:28.600 when we talk about that one with a group text, 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:30.400 you kind of wanted to get to a decision. 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:31.720 I mean, I've had a lot. 0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:34.600 Of experiences some people kind of go back and forth, 0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:35.880 and I don't know if it's that they're trying to 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:38.280 seek consensus. They don't want to put something out there, 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:41.800 but if you're trying to schedule something or get together. 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:45.040 I've had some people who are also like, Okay, yes 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:47.760 we want to do lunch. Let's do either you know 0:13:47.880 --> 0:13:50.719 this restaurant, this restaurant or this restaurant on Tuesday. Name 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:53.280 your thing, right, There's some people who go very quickly 0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:54.920 to making it happen. 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:57.400 I wonder what we have going on there? Is it 0:13:57.480 --> 0:13:57.880 good to do? 0:13:57.920 --> 0:13:59.760 I mean, it does reduce back and forth if somebody 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:01.839 takes I mean it depends on what the like. 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:04.560 Let me ask you, when somebody said, which which kind 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:06.480 of conversation do you prefer? Do you prefer one where 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:08.160 someone says, hey, we should all have lunch and then 0:14:08.280 --> 0:14:10.360 you know, like a week and a half later people 0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:12.199 have chimed in and a month later you get together, 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:14.720 which is totally fine. Or do you prefer something where 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:16.679 someone says, we should have lunch. Here's three dates for 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:19.480 you to choose from at twelve o'clock and we're going 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:22.320 to do it next week. Which one do you prefer? 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:22.840 Oh? 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:25.840 I love the second one because because it puts you 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:27.360 in an easy place that you can say yes or 0:14:27.400 --> 0:14:30.560 no right with one more step and if it works 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:32.520 for you, great, If it doesn't, it doesn't, but you 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:35.880 don't have to continually come back to it and see 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:38.080 what's going on and follow up and all that. It's 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:40.800 it's that we've gone from intention to reality and like 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:41.880 one small step. 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:44.640 And that doesn't mean that the first kind of conversation 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:47.160 is the bad kind of is a bad conversation. Right. 0:14:47.160 --> 0:14:49.640 There's sometimes when we're just making jokes with our friends 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:51.840 where we don't want to be really efficient. We don't 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:53.720 want to be practical. The whole goal of it is 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:55.600 just to make each other laugh and to have something 0:14:55.640 --> 0:14:57.880 to go spend, you know, five minutes on in the 0:14:57.920 --> 0:15:00.120 middle of the work day. But I think what that's 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:02.720 important there is to understand and recognize what you want 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:05.160 out of a conversation. If your goal is to go 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:08.400 from hey, let's have lunch to a plan on when 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:11.600 we're going to meet up in you know, twelve hours, 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:14.640 then you should be very explicit and say here's three 0:15:14.760 --> 0:15:17.120 dates and tell me which one works for you, or 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:19.440 tell me that you don't you can't join us. But 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:21.520 if your goal is just to kind of like reconnect 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:23.280 with people and you don't really want to have a plan, 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:25.080 and if you have lunch, it's okay, But the point 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:27.440 is that you ask to have lunch, then that's all 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:32.040 right as well. What's important is knowing in your own 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:35.640 head what you're looking for, and what studies tell us 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:38.720 is that if you just take literally two seconds and 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:42.840 say why am I having this conversation, you'll know immediately 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:45.880 why you're having that conversation. It doesn't take much time 0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:49.200 to figure out what your intent is. What does take 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:52.720 time is not knowing your intent and then moving around 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:54.320 like a blind person in the dark. 0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:57.920 I think the idea of what I mentioning having lunch 0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:00.480 but not really wanting to have lunch is a whole 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:04.000 different set of social cues I have not really entirely 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:07.400 figured out. But that's a subject for an entirely different matter. 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:09.000 We're going to take a quick ad break and then 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:11.080 I will be back with more from Charles Doing. 0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:18.400 Well. 0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:20.920 I am back talking with Charles Doing who's the author 0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:23.320 of the book Super Communicator, switched out last year and 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:26.560 is out nearly in paperback, so please go check that out. 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:28.400 So, Charles, I'm curious about you. 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:30.960 Do you have any sort of norms around like email 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:34.600 for yourself, like ways that you deal with email more effectively, 0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:35.680 any routines. 0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:36.520 That help you. Oh? 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:38.960 Yeah, absolutely. So when I send emails, I tend to 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:42.960 use many more bullet points, right, And the reason why 0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:45.120 is because what I'm trying to do is I'm trying 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:48.440 to visually suggest to the person what my goal is. Right. 0:16:48.640 --> 0:16:50.600 So I say like, hey, look, I wanted to talk 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:52.880 about this new apartment that we're buying. There's three things 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:55.280 that I'd like to address. A view number one number two, 0:16:55.400 --> 0:16:58.480 number three, And what I'm saying explicitly is here are 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:00.880 the three questions that I'm asking, right, I'm not just 0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:03.320 sending you an email and hoping that you pill out 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:04.960 the questions that are important to me. I'm going to 0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:07.440 make it explicit. The other thing is we have this 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:11.639 saying in journalism, which is I didn't have enough time 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:14.760 to write short, right, And I think this gets it 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:18.359 something kind of important, which is everyone who's written knows 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:21.480 this feeling that when you're rushed and in a hurry, 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:26.080 oftentimes you write longer more than when you're not in 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:28.120 a hurry, and you have the time and the luxury 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:29.840 to figure out what you want to say and to 0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:32.800 write short. And the same thing is true of sending 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:36.240 emails or any other kind of communication. Oftentimes we use 0:17:36.280 --> 0:17:39.240 an email to figure out what we mean to say 0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:42.320 through the process of writing the email, and that's helpful 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:44.159 because then we know what we want to get across, 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:45.680 we know what we want to ask, we know what 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:48.800 our intent is. But if we've used an email to 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:51.000 help us figure out what we want to say, it's 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:55.320 worthwhile to reread that email and take out the fluff, 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:58.520 because inevitably the path of figuring out what I want 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:02.200 to say involves a lot of side avenues that aren't 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:05.000 that useful to me and or useful to the other person. 0:18:05.680 --> 0:18:07.800 So I think one of the things with written communications 0:18:07.880 --> 0:18:10.760 is that if we self edit, even just the lightest 0:18:10.840 --> 0:18:14.600 kind of self edit, that we know that that actually 0:18:14.600 --> 0:18:17.919 makes the communication much richer and actually more efficient for 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:18.840 everyone involved. 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:21.200 All right, so we're going to use bullet points, we're 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:22.200 going to edit ourselves. 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:24.399 Right, But if you were figuring out what you were 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:25.879 trying to say, you're going to go back, take all 0:18:25.920 --> 0:18:29.159