1 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:06,600 Speaker 1: Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 2: Good Morning, This is Laura, Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. 3 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 2: Today's episode is going to be a longer one part 4 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 2: of the series where I interview fascinating people about how 5 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 2: they take their days from great to awesome and any 6 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 2: advice they have for the rest of us. So today 7 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 2: I'm delighted to welcome Charles Duhig back to Before Breakfast. 8 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 2: Charles is the author of several best selling books, including 9 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 2: the Power of Habit and Super Communicators, which is newly 10 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:37,480 Speaker 2: out in paperbacks. 11 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 1: So Charles, welcome to the show. 12 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. 13 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:42,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, really excited to have you back. 14 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 2: So, if we have any new listeners who've joined us 15 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 2: in the last year or so, maybe you could tell 16 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:48,599 Speaker 2: everybody just a little bit about yourself. 17 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 3: Absolutely, I'm an author. I wrote the book The Power 18 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 3: of Habit, and also my most recent book is Super Communicators, 19 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 3: and I'm a writer at the New Yorker magazine previously 20 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 3: with The New York Times. I write about business and 21 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 3: investigations and tech for the most part. 22 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:09,319 Speaker 2: In AI, Absolutely, so, I know you have written about 23 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 2: a ton of different topics, but I thought, in our 24 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 2: time here today we could focus a little bit on 25 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 2: your most recent book with communication and in particular how 26 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 2: better communication can save us time, because that was a 27 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:25,639 Speaker 2: big thing for people who listen to this show. So first, 28 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 2: what tends to go wrong with communication that winds up 29 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 2: being a major time suck? 30 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:35,559 Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, it's a great question because oftentimes, when we're 31 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 3: in a conversation and we want to actually communicate with 32 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 3: the other person and miscommunication is happening, which means they 33 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 3: can't understand us, we can't understand them. The consequences are 34 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,199 Speaker 3: pretty dire, right. They can go off and spend days 35 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 3: working on a project without understanding that you actually asked 36 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 3: for something different, or there can be these hurt feelings. 37 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 3: So for this miscommunication and what's often happening there is 38 00:01:55,800 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 3: that people are having different kinds of conversations without realizing it. Right, 39 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 3: what neuroscience tells us is that almost all discussions fall 40 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 3: into one of three buckets. There are these practical conversations 41 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 3: where we're talking about plans and making choices together and 42 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 3: solving problems. But then there's emotional conversations where I tell 43 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 3: you what I'm feeling and I don't want you to 44 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:20,679 Speaker 3: solve my feelings. I want you to empathize, I want 45 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 3: you to relate to me. And then finally, there's social conversations, 46 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 3: which is about how you and I relate to each 47 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 3: other in society and the identities that are important to us. 48 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 3: And all three of these different kinds of conversations are important, 49 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 3: and frankly, all three of them might happen during a 50 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:38,800 Speaker 3: long discussion or a big discussion. But what researchers have 51 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 3: found is if we aren't having the same kind of 52 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 3: conversation at the same moment, I cannot hear what you 53 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 3: are trying to tell me, and you cannot fully hear me, 54 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 3: and in fact will feel disconnected from each other. So 55 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,119 Speaker 3: if I'm telling you how like, oh, go ahead. 56 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 2: No, it's just gonna say that's interesting, because you know, 57 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 2: when we're talking about how bad communication saves us time, 58 00:02:57,600 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 2: I was going to say it would even just be 59 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 2: the back and forth, like having you know, ten different 60 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 2: messages go back and forth of trying to figure something out. 61 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 2: But you're saying it's it's not even so much that 62 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 2: is that people are having a different conversation. 63 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 3: Well, and oftentimes that back and forth. In fact, one 64 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 3: of the things that we know about productive conversations is 65 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 3: that they tend to involve a lot of what's known 66 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 3: as ping ponging, Right, Like I'll say something and then 67 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:19,799 Speaker 3: you kind of pick up on it, and you might 68 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 3: interrupt me, and then I'll interrupt you, and like that 69 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:24,799 Speaker 3: means that we're both involved in the conversation. We're really 70 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 3: hearing each other. It's not that the goal is to 71 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 3: make conversations as brief as possible, because if you think 72 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 3: about it, if the goal of a conversation is simply 73 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 3: to import impart information, then it shouldn't really be a conversation. 74 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 3: I should just tell you, Laura, the weather today is this, 75 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 3: and so therefore you should wear a raincoat. But I 76 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 3: think what's important is that when we are in a conversation, 77 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 3: we're actually trying to learn from each other. We're trying 78 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 3: to share our own perspective, and to do that, we 79 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 3: have to be able to hear the other person. And 80 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 3: that means we have to get a ligned on what 81 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 3: kind of conversation we're having. 82 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 2: So, what are some best practices then for make making 83 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,119 Speaker 2: sure that we are having an effective conversation? 84 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 3: Absolutely so, the first and most important thing is to 85 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 3: ask more questions. One of the things that we know 86 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 3: about consistent supercommunicators, and we're all super communicators at one 87 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 3: time or another, but consistent supercommunicators people who can connect 88 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 3: with almost anyone, is that they tend to ask ten 89 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 3: to twenty times as many questions as the average person. 90 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 3: And some of those questions don't even register as questions. 91 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 3: Are things like oh, oh, what'd you think about that? 92 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 3: Or what'd you say next? Or what do you think 93 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 3: about this? They're invitations to a conversation. But some of 94 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 3: the questions are what are known as deep questions. And 95 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 3: a deep question is something that asks about our values 96 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 3: or beliefs, or our experiences. And that can sound a 97 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 3: little intimidating, but it's as simple as if you meet 98 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:43,039 Speaker 3: someone who's a doctor, for instance, instead of asking them, oh, 99 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:45,280 Speaker 3: what hospital do you work at, you can ask them, oh, 100 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:47,840 Speaker 3: what made you decide to go to medical school? Right? 101 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 3: That second question, that second question is actually an invitation 102 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 3: for someone to tell me something about themselves that's real, 103 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 3: and that's how we tend to get aligned. That's the 104 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 3: best practice for getting aligned with the other person, making 105 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:01,840 Speaker 3: sure we're having the same kind of conversation at the 106 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 3: same moment. 107 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I'm curious about. 108 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, that's one thing for if we're 109 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 2: having a face to face person, you know, in person conversation, 110 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 2: but so many of these conversations take place like back 111 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 2: and forth over email. Are there way is to make 112 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 2: sure that we are communicating more effectively in that medium. 113 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a couple of things that we know about 114 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 3: email in particular. The first is that asking questions on 115 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 3: email is actually even more powerful. Right, So if you 116 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 3: just have two people saying this is what I think, 117 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:30,600 Speaker 3: this is what I think, that's not really going to 118 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 3: work out. But if somebody says, look, I'm just wondering, like, 119 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 3: like you said that this was really important to you, 120 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 3: Can you just give me a little bit of background 121 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 3: on why it's important to you. That's as easy to 122 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 3: do in an email as it is at face to face. 123 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 3: But we do know that some of the things about 124 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 3: email that are true are that, first of all, it 125 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 3: tends to be there's a set of rules around email 126 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,279 Speaker 3: that we've all internalized, but sometimes we forget to remind 127 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 3: ourselves of We know, for instance, that sarcasm does not 128 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 3: work an email. Right when I'm speaking to you, can 129 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 3: hear the sarcasm in my voice. When I'm type something, 130 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 3: you don't know if I'm being serious or sarcastic. We 131 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:08,600 Speaker 3: also know that politeness pays huge dividends when we're conversing online. 132 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 3: The simply saying please and thank you oftentimes, and studies 133 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 3: show this can bring down the temperature of a conversation significantly. 134 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 3: But equally, the thing about email is that it's asynchronous, right. 135 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 3: That's really one of the huge benefits of it is 136 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 3: that it's immediate and when I hit send, you get 137 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 3: it right away. But also I can hit send tonight 138 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:28,679 Speaker 3: and you don't have to look at it until tomorrow morning. 139 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 3: And so I think recognizing that an asynchronous kind of 140 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 3: communication sometimes means you need to explain something a little 141 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:38,720 Speaker 3: bit more. Oh, last night, you know, I went home 142 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 3: with my wife and we had this conversation. Really, communication 143 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 3: is about trying to over communicate, or at least thinking 144 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:49,600 Speaker 3: about how we're communicating. And it's not hard, it doesn't 145 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 3: take much time. But the people who are the best 146 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 3: communicators are the ones who just spend half a percent 147 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 3: more thinking about what they're saying. 148 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 2: And what about in meetings, for instance, I wonder if 149 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:03,919 Speaker 2: this sort of norms around communication that can make meetings 150 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 2: more effective and hopefully, you know, not drag on as 151 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 2: long as many tend to do. 152 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's actually a lot of research into how to 153 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 3: communicate in meetings, and the goal of all this communication 154 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 3: in a meeting is to create what's known as psychological safety. 155 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 3: Psychological safety is the most important characteristic in bringing a 156 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 3: team together, allowing them to feel like a cohesive unit 157 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 3: as opposed to just individuals operating next to each other. 158 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 3: And there's two things that researchers have found particularly helped 159 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 3: create psychological safety. The first is what's known as equality 160 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 3: in conversational turntaking. If you have dominated the conversation, you've 161 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 3: spoken way more than anyone else. That's not a great sign. 162 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 3: On the other hand, if you've spoken way less than 163 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 3: everyone else, that might mean that you're not being invited 164 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 3: or feel comfortable enough to voice your opinion. And so 165 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 3: for a leader of a meeting like that, what's really 166 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 3: important is to draw people out. Hey, Susie, you know 167 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 3: you mentioned this thing last meeting, and I haven't heard 168 00:07:58,320 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 3: much from you. Tell me what you think about this. 169 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 3: That's the first thing in quality and conversational turn ticking 170 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 3: The second important tactic is what's known as ostentatious listening. 171 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 3: And it's particularly important that leaders do this that when 172 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 3: I listen, I make it obvious to you that I'm listening. Hey, Jim, 173 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 3: that's a really good point you brought up. Let me 174 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 3: repeat it back just to make sure I understand it, 175 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 3: or you know, Frank, I remember earlier this meeting you 176 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 3: said this, and I'm wondering how it connects to this 177 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 3: new idea. What happens when a leader engages in ostentatious 178 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 3: listening is that other people start to echo him, or 179 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 3: mirror him, or copy him or her, almost unconsciously, and 180 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 3: so as a result, what you get is a room 181 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 3: where people are talking up in roughly equal measure. And 182 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 3: that doesn't mean the same number of minutes or the 183 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 3: same number of words, but roughly everyone has a chance 184 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 3: to participate, and that we are all showing that we 185 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 3: are listening to each other, which means we are actually 186 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 3: listening to each other. 187 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 2: That's going to work, wonders Yeah, Well, I love the 188 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 2: phrase ostentatious listening. I'm going to have to start using 189 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 2: that one. That's great to going above and beyond with 190 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 2: the listening. Well, We're going to take a quick ad 191 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 2: break and then we'll be back talking with more about 192 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 2: ways that better communication can save us time. So I'm 193 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 2: here talking with Charles Doujig about ways we can communicate better. 194 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 2: We've been talking about communication and email communication in meetings. 195 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 2: I want to throw out one of the sort of 196 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 2: most difficult ways to communicate, the group text that you know, 197 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 2: I think many people have had the experience of things 198 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:35,079 Speaker 2: sort of going off the rails, or even a simple 199 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 2: thing of trying to get everyone together for lunch. You 200 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 2: know that many people are involved, it goes many directions. 201 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 2: You want everyone to be heard, but sort of making 202 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,439 Speaker 2: a decision with five people is often very difficult. I 203 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 2: wonder if there are ways we can communicate effectively in 204 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 2: those situations. 205 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, Well let me ask you, so, when's the 206 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 3: last time you were in a group text that you 207 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 3: thought went well. 208 00:09:57,360 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 1: Well, I've had a few. I've had a few. 209 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 2: You know. Usually it's if you've gotten together recently and 210 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 2: you're all sort of chatting about. 211 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: Something that just happened. 212 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 2: You know, you're rehashing what happened, sharing the inside jokes 213 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 2: of what came out of that, and laughing on it 214 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 2: as sort of a way to send everyone off into 215 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 2: the world. 216 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think what's happening there is that because 217 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 3: you are you've been together recently, there's kind of an 218 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:24,559 Speaker 3: almost meta conversation happening in that group text. Right, remember 219 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 3: when we were all together and Jane said this one thing, 220 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 3: like I'm going to make a joke about that. That'll 221 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 3: harken back to it. What we know is that one 222 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 3: of the best things you can do for communication is 223 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 3: engaging what's known as meta communication, which is very simple 224 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 3: and time efficient. It's a matter of saying, hey, look, 225 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 3: my goal in this conversation. I want to have a 226 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 3: meeting with you to sit down, and my goal is X. 227 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 3: That's a meta conversation. I've told you what my goal 228 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 3: is for this conversation, and I might ask you what's your goal, 229 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 3: like what do you hope to get out of this discussion. 230 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 3: Oftentimes in group chats, we don't engage in meta conversation. Right, 231 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 3: So somebody says, hey, you know, I'm wondering if you 232 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 3: should go see that movie on Friday night, And you 233 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 3: don't know, are they proposing this, are they asking it? 234 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 3: If you guys really want to go? Are they suggesting 235 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 3: that we actually make a plan, and so as a result, 236 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,079 Speaker 3: one person says like, oh, yeah, that sounds good, and 237 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 3: another person says, yeah, I can be there at six 238 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 3: fifty five in the evening and I'll meet you guys 239 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 3: exactly in front of the theater. So what's happening there 240 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 3: is that people are having different kinds of conversations. Right, 241 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 3: someone's making a general comment, someone's making a specific comment. 242 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 3: The other thing that happens in a group text, and 243 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 3: this is true group emails, is that nobody feels the 244 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 3: obligation to respond because it's a group that was sent 245 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 3: the message was sent to, So for the sender, it 246 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 3: feels very very lonely that they send, you know, twenty 247 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 3: of their best friends, Hey, does anyone want to go 248 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 3: to the movies? No one person responds. I think that 249 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 3: they all their friends hate them. But it's actually because 250 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 3: when you're in a group, you don't feel any obligation 251 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 3: to respond. You assume that it's up to the group. 252 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:55,320 Speaker 3: So the things that we can do that can make 253 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 3: them better is just to be very explicit about why 254 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 3: we are texting. Hey, guys, I want to see if 255 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:03,439 Speaker 3: you'd like to go see the movie on Tuesday. If so, 256 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 3: then can you meet at the movie theater at six 257 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 3: fifty five. Please respond to me either privately or or 258 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 3: over the group. Okay, that's great, Right. Everyone knows exactly 259 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 3: what they're supposed to do, they know why you're having 260 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 3: this conversation, and they can easily opt out and say, hey, 261 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 3: I'm not interested. But that's what often happens in group 262 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 3: text is that the meta conversation gets very muddled. 263 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: Well, so what I'm. 264 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,439 Speaker 2: Hearing you say here is that conversations in general need 265 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 2: an intention, right. I mean, we run our mouths all 266 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 2: the time, we have no idea why we are doing so. 267 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 2: But pausing to think about why I am having this conversation, 268 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 2: either by email, by group text, by in person with 269 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 2: another person can go a long way. 270 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:46,439 Speaker 3: Well, and it's actually a little bit tiger than that, 271 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 3: which is that every conversation you have already has an intention. Right. 272 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:51,960 Speaker 3: You are opening your mouth for a reason. Now you 273 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 3: might not be aware of what that reason is, and 274 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 3: that reason might be I want to make my friend laugh, 275 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 3: or I want to find out how my spouse's day went, 276 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:02,439 Speaker 3: or I want them to understand that I'm angry. There 277 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:05,079 Speaker 3: is an intention behind every time we open our mouth. 278 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 3: There's two questions. Number one, do we know what our 279 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 3: intention is? Have we taken just half a second to say, 280 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 3: like why am I having this conversation? And number two, 281 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 3: are we trying to communicate clearly what that intention is 282 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 3: to the other person and ask them what their intention is? 283 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 3: If we do, the conversation is going to get much better? Yeah? 284 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 2: Absolutely, Well, I wonder if there's sort of a I mean, 285 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 2: when we talk about that one with a group text, 286 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 2: you kind of wanted to get to a decision. 287 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 1: I mean, I've had a lot. 288 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 2: Of experiences some people kind of go back and forth, 289 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 2: and I don't know if it's that they're trying to 290 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 2: seek consensus. They don't want to put something out there, 291 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 2: but if you're trying to schedule something or get together. 292 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 2: I've had some people who are also like, Okay, yes 293 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 2: we want to do lunch. Let's do either you know 294 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,719 Speaker 2: this restaurant, this restaurant or this restaurant on Tuesday. Name 295 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 2: your thing, right, There's some people who go very quickly 296 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 2: to making it happen. 297 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 1: I wonder what we have going on there? Is it 298 00:13:57,480 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 1: good to do? 299 00:13:57,920 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 2: I mean, it does reduce back and forth if somebody 300 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:01,839 Speaker 2: takes I mean it depends on what the like. 301 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 3: Let me ask you, when somebody said, which which kind 302 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 3: of conversation do you prefer? Do you prefer one where 303 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 3: someone says, hey, we should all have lunch and then 304 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 3: you know, like a week and a half later people 305 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:12,199 Speaker 3: have chimed in and a month later you get together, 306 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 3: which is totally fine. Or do you prefer something where 307 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:16,679 Speaker 3: someone says, we should have lunch. Here's three dates for 308 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 3: you to choose from at twelve o'clock and we're going 309 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 3: to do it next week. Which one do you prefer? 310 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: Oh? 311 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 2: I love the second one because because it puts you 312 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 2: in an easy place that you can say yes or 313 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 2: no right with one more step and if it works 314 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 2: for you, great, If it doesn't, it doesn't, but you 315 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 2: don't have to continually come back to it and see 316 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 2: what's going on and follow up and all that. It's 317 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 2: it's that we've gone from intention to reality and like 318 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 2: one small step. 319 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 3: And that doesn't mean that the first kind of conversation 320 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 3: is the bad kind of is a bad conversation. Right. 321 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 3: There's sometimes when we're just making jokes with our friends 322 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 3: where we don't want to be really efficient. We don't 323 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 3: want to be practical. The whole goal of it is 324 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 3: just to make each other laugh and to have something 325 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 3: to go spend, you know, five minutes on in the 326 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:00,120 Speaker 3: middle of the work day. But I think what that's 327 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 3: important there is to understand and recognize what you want 328 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 3: out of a conversation. If your goal is to go 329 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 3: from hey, let's have lunch to a plan on when 330 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 3: we're going to meet up in you know, twelve hours, 331 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 3: then you should be very explicit and say here's three 332 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 3: dates and tell me which one works for you, or 333 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 3: tell me that you don't you can't join us. But 334 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 3: if your goal is just to kind of like reconnect 335 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 3: with people and you don't really want to have a plan, 336 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 3: and if you have lunch, it's okay, But the point 337 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 3: is that you ask to have lunch, then that's all 338 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 3: right as well. What's important is knowing in your own 339 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 3: head what you're looking for, and what studies tell us 340 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 3: is that if you just take literally two seconds and 341 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 3: say why am I having this conversation, you'll know immediately 342 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 3: why you're having that conversation. It doesn't take much time 343 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 3: to figure out what your intent is. What does take 344 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 3: time is not knowing your intent and then moving around 345 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 3: like a blind person in the dark. 346 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 2: I think the idea of what I mentioning having lunch 347 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 2: but not really wanting to have lunch is a whole 348 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 2: different set of social cues I have not really entirely 349 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 2: figured out. But that's a subject for an entirely different matter. 350 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 2: We're going to take a quick ad break and then 351 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 2: I will be back with more from Charles Doing. 352 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 3: Well. 353 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 2: I am back talking with Charles Doing who's the author 354 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 2: of the book Super Communicator, switched out last year and 355 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 2: is out nearly in paperback, so please go check that out. 356 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: So, Charles, I'm curious about you. 357 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 2: Do you have any sort of norms around like email 358 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 2: for yourself, like ways that you deal with email more effectively, 359 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 2: any routines. 360 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: That help you. Oh? 361 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. So when I send emails, I tend to 362 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 3: use many more bullet points, right, And the reason why 363 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 3: is because what I'm trying to do is I'm trying 364 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 3: to visually suggest to the person what my goal is. Right. 365 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 3: So I say like, hey, look, I wanted to talk 366 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 3: about this new apartment that we're buying. There's three things 367 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 3: that I'd like to address. A view number one number two, 368 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 3: number three, And what I'm saying explicitly is here are 369 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 3: the three questions that I'm asking, right, I'm not just 370 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 3: sending you an email and hoping that you pill out 371 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 3: the questions that are important to me. I'm going to 372 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,440 Speaker 3: make it explicit. The other thing is we have this 373 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 3: saying in journalism, which is I didn't have enough time 374 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 3: to write short, right, And I think this gets it 375 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 3: something kind of important, which is everyone who's written knows 376 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 3: this feeling that when you're rushed and in a hurry, 377 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 3: oftentimes you write longer more than when you're not in 378 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:28,120 Speaker 3: a hurry, and you have the time and the luxury 379 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 3: to figure out what you want to say and to 380 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 3: write short. And the same thing is true of sending 381 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 3: emails or any other kind of communication. Oftentimes we use 382 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 3: an email to figure out what we mean to say 383 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 3: through the process of writing the email, and that's helpful 384 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:44,159 Speaker 3: because then we know what we want to get across, 385 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:45,680 Speaker 3: we know what we want to ask, we know what 386 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 3: our intent is. But if we've used an email to 387 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 3: help us figure out what we want to say, it's 388 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 3: worthwhile to reread that email and take out the fluff, 389 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 3: because inevitably the path of figuring out what I want 390 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 3: to say involves a lot of side avenues that aren't 391 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 3: that useful to me and or useful to the other person. 392 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 3: So I think one of the things with written communications 393 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 3: is that if we self edit, even just the lightest 394 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 3: kind of self edit, that we know that that actually 395 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,919 Speaker 3: makes the communication much richer and actually more efficient for 396 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 3: everyone involved. 397 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 1: All right, so we're going to use bullet points, we're 398 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 1: going to edit ourselves. 399 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:24,399 Speaker 2: Right, But if you were figuring out what you were 400 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 2: trying to say, you're going to go back, take all 401 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:29,159 Speaker 2: that out, put in what you're actually going to say. 402 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 1: Then I'm curious about subject lines. 403 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 2: Because I think this is this is just I mean, 404 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 2: it's only a few words, and yet in and of itself, 405 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:40,440 Speaker 2: that can be whether the email gets opened, it can 406 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:44,439 Speaker 2: be you know, how quickly it gets responded to. And 407 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 2: yet most of us are not you know, professional email marketers, 408 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:49,919 Speaker 2: like we have no idea how to title an email 409 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 2: to get somebody to open it. 410 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 3: Well, I think that we should think of a subject 411 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 3: line as marketing. Right. Sometimes we use the subject line 412 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,239 Speaker 3: as like, here's the here's the summary of what I'm 413 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 3: about to email you. That's not what a SA subject 414 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 3: line should be A subject line should be a little 415 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 3: bit of marketing. Hey, here's a funny joke for you. Okay, 416 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:09,439 Speaker 3: Now if I yeah, there's one weird trick and so 417 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 3: and so. I think the thing is that you know, obviously, 418 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 3: we know what's interesting to us, we know what's likely 419 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 3: to cause us to open an email, and if we 420 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 3: just think about that for the other person that we're 421 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 3: sending an email to, I think it'll work. So when 422 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 3: I send emails out to people I don't know, I 423 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 3: often say from Charles Dohig, the author of Supercommunicators in 424 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 3: the Power of Habit, because I think for some percentage 425 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 3: of people they are familiar with my work and so 426 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:36,440 Speaker 3: they think, oh, I got an email from Charles doing. 427 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 3: But for other people, I might say, you know, uh, 428 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 3: from the New Yorker, a quick question for you for 429 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 3: an article I'm writing, right, And for a certain type 430 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 3: of person, they're thinking, oh, if they have a quick 431 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:49,199 Speaker 3: question for me, I might appear in this article. And 432 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 3: that's something that I enjoy. I'm very aware of how 433 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,919 Speaker 3: a subject line is read by the recipient, and in 434 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:56,919 Speaker 3: doing so, I'm using it as just a little bit 435 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 3: of marketing. Doesn't have to be over the top, doesn't 436 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 3: have to be you know, one trick that will cause 437 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 3: you to lose weight, but it should be something that 438 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:06,680 Speaker 3: entices you into this correspondence. 439 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:09,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm probably opening the one about the one weird trick. 440 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: I don't know. I think we're all helpless. 441 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 2: So when it comes to that subject line, how about 442 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 2: in terms of the rhythm of your days, are you 443 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:18,639 Speaker 2: the sort of person who's in and out of email 444 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 2: a lot or you'd have set times when. 445 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 1: You check it. 446 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 3: Oh no, I'm in and out of email all day now. 447 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:25,680 Speaker 3: I will say my ideal day in my actual days 448 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 3: tend to differ quite a bit. But one thing I 449 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 3: do do is every night before I go to bed, 450 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 3: I just look at my calendar for the next day 451 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 3: and I fill in blocks with the work that I 452 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 3: want to do. So, for instance, for today, it has 453 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 3: this conversation with you, and then on my calendar it 454 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 3: says for the next forty five minutes answer emails, and 455 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 3: then I have another conversation, and then for forty five 456 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 3: minutes after that, I have something that says work on 457 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,880 Speaker 3: fact checking letters. So basically what I'm trying to do 458 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 3: is I'm trying to plan out my entire day. Now, 459 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 3: that doesn't mean that I hit all of those exactly 460 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 3: on the nose, but I know that today I have 461 00:20:57,600 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 3: forty five minutes to deal with all the emails that 462 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 3: I need to do deal with, and then I'm not 463 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 3: going to have another chance to look at them until 464 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,159 Speaker 3: six or seven tonight, and that's going to help me 465 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 3: prioritize what I actually look at. So I think. I 466 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:12,920 Speaker 3: think oftentimes starting is the hardest part, right. Deciding to 467 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 3: choose switch from one task to the next is challenging. 468 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 3: But if we can make that decision in advance, if 469 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:21,479 Speaker 3: we tell ourselves when we're in a what's known as 470 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 3: a cool period, when the work isn't right in front 471 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 3: of us, that tomorrow at nine o'clock, when I'm in 472 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 3: a hot mindset, instead of going and doing something pointless, 473 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,159 Speaker 3: I'm going to spend forty five minutes on email. But 474 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:34,880 Speaker 3: that's it. It makes it easier. 475 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 2: I love the idea of scheduling the exact amount of 476 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 2: time you are going to spend on email as well. 477 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 2: I think for many people it becomes I mean it's 478 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 2: like tidying the house. I mean, you can fill any 479 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:44,880 Speaker 2: amount of time that you choose to give. 480 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 3: Oh, absolutely, And the more you answer emails, the more 481 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 3: emails you get, right, It's it's I think that oftentimes 482 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 3: people use their email inbox as a to do list, 483 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 3: and that's exactly the wrong way to use it, because 484 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:57,880 Speaker 3: what you're doing is you're letting other people put items 485 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 3: on your to do list that you might not want 486 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 3: to do. What's important is to take control of that. 487 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 3: So I don't have I don't have inbox zero. I 488 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 3: don't have a certain number of emails in my inbox 489 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 3: that I care whether it's above or below that number. 490 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 3: I just glance at it at least once a day 491 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 3: to see if there's anything pressing that needs to be 492 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 3: dealt with right now. And if the answer is no, 493 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:21,920 Speaker 3: then I'll wait until I have more time. I think 494 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 3: the most important thing is to forgive yourself for email. 495 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 3: You should feel no guilt over not returning an email. 496 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 3: Just because somebody has emailed you does not imply an 497 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,439 Speaker 3: obligation on your part to reply or return that email 498 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 3: unless it's something you want to do. 499 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 2: All right, Well, that's tough love, but we'll try to 500 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,159 Speaker 2: keep that in mind. So, Charles, since you've been our 501 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,399 Speaker 2: guests on the show before, I always ask people something 502 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 2: you have done recently to take a day from great 503 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:49,360 Speaker 2: to awesome. 504 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 3: Well, so it's a great question. So we just moved 505 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 3: right from from one house to another house, and in 506 00:22:58,160 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 3: one of the things that's been driving me crazy is 507 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,120 Speaker 3: that there's been boxes all over and having a having 508 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,880 Speaker 3: like this visual clutter in my in my eyesight has 509 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 3: been really hard. And so what I did is yesterday 510 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 3: I just spend a bunch of time picking up boxes 511 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 3: and putting them into into basically this side room that 512 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 3: we were not using. Now, this is not particularly efficient. 513 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 3: I'm gonna have to take those boxes back out of 514 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 3: that room. I'm gonna have to unpack them. Not only that, 515 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,200 Speaker 3: but in that room it's very hard to get organized 516 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 3: because there's a whole bunch of boxes in there. But 517 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 3: what I recognize is that I'm more efficient and more 518 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,440 Speaker 3: productive when I have sort of a clean, simple visual 519 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 3: field around me. And taking the time to create the 520 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 3: environment that makes you most productive is oftentimes one of 521 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 3: the most productive things you can do. 522 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 1: I love it. 523 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 2: Well, it's it's kind of like putting the emails at 524 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 2: a folder that you don't want to see at this 525 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 2: point to maybe deal with them later. 526 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,199 Speaker 3: But yeah, exactly, And I have a folder like that. 527 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 3: I have a folder called AA to Do. And what 528 00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:59,199 Speaker 3: happens is if an email has been sitting in my 529 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:00,920 Speaker 3: inbox and like I don't want to deal with it, 530 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:02,200 Speaker 3: and it's been there for a long time and it's 531 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 3: stressful just to see it, I put it in that folder. 532 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 3: And the key is I never opened that folder. 533 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 1: It's gone. 534 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 2: It's like the stuff I was put in the donation box, 535 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 2: and you wait for a while and then if you 536 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 2: don't open it in six months, it's out, and. 537 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:17,360 Speaker 3: I don't have to feel guilty that I deleted it. 538 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,199 Speaker 3: In fact, I still have it. Someday, who knows, one 539 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 3: hundred years from now, I might actually open that folder. 540 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 3: But the point is that right now I've decided I 541 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,160 Speaker 3: don't need to and that there's no point in having 542 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 3: it on my consciousness. 543 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 2: Absolutely if we love getting rid of clutter. So what 544 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 2: are you looking forward to right now? 545 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:36,880 Speaker 3: One of the things I'm looking forward to is I'm 546 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 3: looking forward to hearing from people about how they communicate better. 547 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 3: You know. One of the things that's been such a 548 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,159 Speaker 3: delight is that after writing this book, I get emails 549 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:46,879 Speaker 3: from people saying, I haven't talked to my brother in 550 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,880 Speaker 3: you know, four years, and then I read this book 551 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 3: and it gave me a way to go and have 552 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 3: this conversation. Or I've been meaning to ask for a 553 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 3: raise for the last six months and I didn't know 554 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 3: how to do it, and then I read your book 555 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 3: and it gave me a gave me a step by 556 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:03,959 Speaker 3: step guide on how to have that kind of conversation. 557 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 3: And so if anyone listening, if you've had a great conversation, 558 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 3: I would love to hear from you and to hear 559 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 3: how it went and why you think it went so 560 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 3: well and what you learned from it. 561 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:13,640 Speaker 1: Awesome. 562 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,119 Speaker 2: Well, be sure to reach out to Charles, and so 563 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 2: I should ask you, how can people find you? 564 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,639 Speaker 3: Yeah? Absolutely, they can find me online. I'm at Charles 565 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 3: Duhig dot com, which is Duhigg or I have a 566 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 3: substack newsletter called the Science of Better And if you 567 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 3: just google Science of Better or my name, or even 568 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 3: Power of Habit or Supercommunicators, it'll certainly come up. And 569 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 3: I'd love to love to hear from you and love 570 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 3: to have you as a subscriber. Awesome. 571 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 2: We'll be sure to check that out so Charles, thank 572 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,400 Speaker 2: you so much for joining us. Thank you to everyone 573 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,200 Speaker 2: for listening. If you have feedback about this or any 574 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,879 Speaker 2: other episode, you can always reach me at Laura at 575 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 2: Laura vandercam dot com and in the meantime, this is Laura. 576 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening, and here's to making the most of 577 00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 2: our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast. If you've 578 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 2: got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach me at 579 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 2: Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast is a 580 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 2: production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts from iHeartMedia, please visit 581 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,639 Speaker 2: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 582 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 2: your favorite shows.