1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from House Supports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 3 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline and Caroline Windledon's season is upon us. Yes, 4 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: the tennis tournament of all tennis tournaments taking placed June, 5 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: and we figured, Hey, you know what we haven't talked 6 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: about before on the podcast tennis, Women in Tennis, Women 7 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:36,200 Speaker 1: in Tennis, And there is so much to talk about 8 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:38,880 Speaker 1: when it comes to women in tennis. And I will 9 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: say that, unlike I feel like a lot of the 10 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 1: sports topics we've covered on Stuff Mom Never Told You 11 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: that usually goes along the lines of, well, men started 12 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: playing this sport, and then eight thousand years later, some 13 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: doctors decided that women's uteruses wouldn't explode, and so women 14 00:00:56,160 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: started playing tennis. Is an exception, though perhaps because us 15 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: of it's more uppercrust, country club esque roots. Uh So, 16 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: let's dive in a little bit to the history of 17 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: how tennis started and when women started playing it. Yeah, 18 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: in eighteen seventy three, a man with a name that 19 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: sounds like straight out of a Dickens novel, British major 20 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 1: Walter Clopton Wingfield, patented a tennis like game with an 21 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: hourglass shaped court called sporisticy maybe I'm pronouncing that correctly, 22 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 1: which is Greek for quote playing at ball. And he's 23 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: often cited as the inventor of tennis the way we 24 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 1: think about it today. Yeah, but there have been tennis 25 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: like games that have been going on for centuries even 26 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: before that. Um. Some trace it back to a thirteenth 27 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: century French nobility game called jude Palm or game of 28 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: the Palm, because humans apparently really enjoy hitting balls with paddles, 29 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: and we've just been doing that for a very long time. 30 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: But it was really with Clopton Wingfield that tennis got 31 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:12,079 Speaker 1: off the ground. Um Well. So then in the following year, 32 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 1: in eighteen seventy four, you have Marry you Ing outer 33 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: Bridge of Staten Island who introduced tennis to the United States. 34 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: She went all the way to Bermuda and purchased equipment 35 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 1: to use to set up the first tennis court on 36 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: the island. And three years later, speaking of Wimbledon, in 37 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: eighteen seventy seven, the All England Croquet Club stages the 38 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: first men's singles Championship at Wimbledon and twenty two players 39 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:40,079 Speaker 1: entered the tournament, so obviously it was a very small affair, 40 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 1: but still it didn't take that long for Wimbledon to 41 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 1: open its doors to women. In eighteen eighty four, Wimbledon 42 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: Championships were open to women for the first time. So 43 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: there wasn't that massive gap. Yeah, there wasn't that massive gap. 44 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 1: It was just the gap between the rich and the poor. Yeah, 45 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,399 Speaker 1: which we which we will get into you more. Um. 46 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: And three years later, in eighteen eighties seven, Ellen Hansel 47 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 1: was crowned the first women's singles tennis champion at the 48 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: US Open and Latti Dad love that name. Lattida won 49 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: the women's Wimbledon Championship for the first of her five 50 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:18,519 Speaker 1: time wins between eighteen eight seven and eight And hey, 51 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 1: fun Olympics. Fact, here you have the Paris Games and 52 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 1: it offered two events for women, lawn tennis and golf, 53 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:29,639 Speaker 1: because that's what the only sports really the proper ladies 54 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 1: of the day played, and tennis playing. Charlotte Chatty Cooper 55 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: became the first woman to win a gold medal. And 56 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: if you'd like to see uh an interview with her. 57 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: We just happened to have her on our stuff. Mom 58 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 1: never told you show her History, and you should totally 59 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: watch it. You can just go over to stuff Mom 60 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: never told you dot com. By the way, it's me, 61 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: I'm I pretend to be Charlotte Chatty Cooper. I haven't 62 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: gone completely off my rocker, although possibly you will think 63 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: so if you watch that episode of History. So this 64 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: brings us up to women are playing the game. But 65 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: we now want to take a little side road and 66 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: talk about from here the evolution of what women wore 67 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: on the tennis court, because that might seem like sort 68 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:20,839 Speaker 1: of a superfluous topic to focus on, but it actually 69 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: says a lot about women's roles and the amount of 70 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:30,479 Speaker 1: athleticism that they were permitted. Yeah, clothes are political. This 71 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 1: is something we know. This is something that we've talked 72 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 1: about that changing clothes is political. And so back in 73 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: the Victorian era, uh, women were wearing basically a full 74 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: suit of armor to play tennis or the equivalent of course, 75 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: it's under dark colored, high colored blouses with ground length 76 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: skirts typically made from fur trimmed flannel. I mean, just 77 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:59,160 Speaker 1: kill me, like I I like have a baseline sweat 78 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 1: that I'm always at like I'm always just like vaguely 79 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: anxious and sweaty, but put me in a Victorian tennis 80 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:08,720 Speaker 1: outfit and I would just stroke out. But so anyway, 81 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: but so anyway, as you can imagine, this outfit, so 82 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 1: to speak, restricted women's movement a lot, meaning that they 83 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 1: could only play the dainty pet ball. Yeah, it was 84 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 1: actually called pat ball because women's movements were so restricted 85 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: they could barely do much more than pat the bowl 86 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 1: get it over the neck or I don't know, maybe 87 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: they were. I just pictured them like very close together. 88 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: I pictured them on a on a tennis court that 89 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 1: is just the size of a ping pong table, and 90 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: they have to use these tiny paddles to get it 91 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 1: over dainty likes. But I thought it was funny that 92 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: by the nineties white had become the go to color, 93 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: thanks to a woman named Maud Watson, who wore white 94 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:58,480 Speaker 1: at Wimbledon in four. But I thought it was funny 95 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: that by the white had become the go to color 96 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:08,239 Speaker 1: for women's tennis attire a because player mod Watson wore 97 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: a white Wimbledon outfit in four and looked very fashionable 98 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: doing it. But also white helped conceal sweat stains, right, 99 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:21,479 Speaker 1: because sweating is like such like an underclass, like only 100 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: the lower classes are supposed to sweat, exactly, But how 101 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: could you not sweat playing tennis in all of those clothes, 102 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: And if you're just playing pet ball, maybe you weren't 103 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 1: sweat as much. But in nineteen o five American Mary 104 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: Sutton Bundy caused a stir. She rolled back her dress sleeves, 105 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:47,600 Speaker 1: thus showing her wrists, and the Wimbledon crowd went crazy. Yeah, 106 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: it was quite a scandal, I mean, and and that's 107 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 1: not even her ankles that was that was just her wrists. 108 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 1: But by the nineteen twenties, thanks largely to a very 109 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: fashion forward French player, of course she was French Suzanne Langlin. Uh, 110 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 1: they were essentially freed from corsets. And you should google 111 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: image though the pictures of her playing tennis, because she 112 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: was wearing this like bando around her head rather than 113 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:16,239 Speaker 1: a larger hat like a lot of ladies were wearing, 114 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: and shorter skirts and just sort of that more flapper style. 115 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: And honestly, Caroline, it was very fetching look that you 116 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 1: could possibly pull off even today, even today when I 117 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: played a bit of petball. Um. Well, in nine we 118 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 1: have another fashion forward individual, Gertrude gorgeous Gustie Moran. She 119 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 1: attracted a lot of attention for her lace trimmed balloomas 120 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: that she wore under her tennis skirt. Yeah, these weren't. 121 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 1: When I first read she wore lace trimmed underwear, I 122 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: was thinking that she must have had a really short 123 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: skirt on, but no, it was These were actually almost 124 00:07:56,320 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: like biker shorts with lace on them, kind of like 125 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 1: the ones we used to wear under baby doll dresses 126 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: in the early nineties. And again they were kind of cute, 127 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: but people flipped out over that that was highly inappropriate. 128 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: But really, what these women were doing by causing all 129 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: these scandals, particularly at Wimbledon, was essentially chipping away at 130 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: the amount of clothes that female players had to wear, 131 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: so that by the time you get to the nineteen fifties, 132 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: women tennis players weren't wearing things like tights, and their 133 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 1: hemlines were shortened and and gradually, you know, today, if 134 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 1: you think of the kinds of outfits we've seen Venus 135 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: and Serena Williams, where I mean it's you know, the 136 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: sky's the limit or the clothings the minimalist. If you 137 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 1: will well, I mean I think you know, like you said, 138 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 1: clothing seems like a superfluous topic, but but it's not. 139 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: I mean, I think as we've shown this and when 140 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:57,559 Speaker 1: you think about it, it has so many layers to it, 141 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: because you know, when they when Victorian women were wearing 142 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 1: like head to toe tight flannel, they their movements were 143 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 1: incredibly restricted. But the more clothing that you take away, 144 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: the more athleticism you let women exhibit, the more they 145 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:18,200 Speaker 1: can actually play a great competitive game of tennis, the 146 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: more that people are then interested in women's tennis, and 147 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: on and on and on. Well, and it ties into 148 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:26,959 Speaker 1: with the politics of women's bodies. And I mean, this 149 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 1: whole thing reminded me a lot of when we talked 150 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: about the evolution of women's swimwear to where you know, 151 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:34,839 Speaker 1: it used to be that women would have to wear 152 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: dresses with weighted down hymns into the water so they 153 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:41,839 Speaker 1: wouldn't billow out and perhaps show those scandalous ankles. It's 154 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 1: a similar kind of thing that is happening on the 155 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:49,679 Speaker 1: tennis courts during this time. But also speaking of witnessing 156 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: signs of social progress on the tennis court, we also 157 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: need to talk about the diversity of tennis because back 158 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: when it starts it It It was very much and still 159 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: kind of is to some extent a well healed sport 160 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 1: that often took place at exclusive clubs, and people who 161 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 1: were not white were often barred from playing or even 162 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: competing in some tournaments. For instance, um Forest Hills also 163 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 1: known as the West Side Club, which is home of 164 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: the US Open through the late nineteen seventies, was not 165 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 1: integrated for a long time, right, so the opportunities were 166 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: very limited for people of color, I mean, let alone 167 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: women of color. But there were a lot of women 168 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:36,559 Speaker 1: who made a name for themselves in tennis. Starting back 169 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventeen, Lucy dig Slow won the singles title 170 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 1: at the first American Tennis Association National Tournament. She then 171 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 1: went on to become the first female African American national 172 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 1: champion in sports. You might also know her name because 173 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:53,439 Speaker 1: she was one of the original founders of the Alpha 174 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 1: Kappa Alpha sorority. In fact, talk about a groundbreaker um 175 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:02,079 Speaker 1: and that American Tennis Association was largely African American, I 176 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: mean because they were having to form their own associations 177 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: because of racial segregation at the time. And then in 178 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 1: also have Or Washington, who was such a powerhouse. She 179 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: won her first American Tennis Association singles title in twenty 180 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: nine and she held that title for seven years, and 181 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 1: that was a record that she maintained until ALTHEA Gibson 182 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: came along and broke it with nine titles. But I 183 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 1: mean speaking about diversity in tennis, and I mean that 184 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: doesn't mean only skin color. That also means diversity of experience. 185 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: So whereas tennis had been this this domain of rich 186 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: white people, people of legia who were playing it at clubs, 187 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: people like or Washington had to work in domestic service 188 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: to support themselves. So it's not like for a large, 189 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,319 Speaker 1: you know, majority of people when tennis got its start, 190 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 1: it was just like, oh well I don't have to work. 191 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 1: I just get to participate in this fun leisure activity. 192 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 1: But for someone like or Washington, she had to work. 193 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:06,319 Speaker 1: She had to support herself through domestic service. So there 194 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,439 Speaker 1: is a definite diversity and experience that we're getting around 195 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: this time too well. And you see a similar kind 196 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: of socioeconomic diversity being brought to the table as well 197 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: with Althea Gibson, who is probably the name is probably 198 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: familiar to a lot of listeners, but she still had 199 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 1: struggles of her own because also at the time when 200 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: she was breaking all these records in the nineteen forties 201 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: and in particularly the nineteen fifties, Uh, she still had 202 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: to supplement her incomes in some ways. She actually started 203 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: playing golf for a little bit during the tennis off 204 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: season because it wasn't like, you know, Nike could come 205 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 1: along and sponsor her like they could today. Yeah. But 206 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: so in in nineteen forty seven, Althea Gibson won the 207 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: first of ten consecutive American Tennis Association National championships. She 208 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 1: went on to break multiple color barriers in the sport, 209 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: despite the fact that she was a little uncomfortable playing 210 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 1: such a significant, front page stage left role. Yeah. I mean, 211 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: she she talked about that about how she wanted to 212 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: just play for herself, and I can only imagine that 213 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: if you are on a tennis court competing against someone else, 214 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: there's all that pressure in the moment of going to 215 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 1: win that match. But then on top of that, she 216 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: I think felt sometimes like she had the weight of 217 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 1: her entire race on her shoulders when she was on 218 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 1: the court. But nonetheless, she still went on to be 219 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 1: such a trailblazer because in nifties, she became the first 220 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: African American to play in a major United States Lawn 221 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 1: Tennis Association event at the US Nationals, and her case 222 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:51,080 Speaker 1: was helped by white tennis player Alice Marble, who was 223 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: one of the top tennis players at the time. Because people, 224 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 1: you know, a lot of people didn't want to let 225 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 1: Althea Gibson play because the place where they were playing 226 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: was segregated and she would have to bring a color 227 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 1: line and people were really uncomfortable with that. But Marble 228 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: wrote this public letter saying, you know what, I want 229 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 1: to see how good I really am, and if she's 230 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: one of the best athletes in the US, then we 231 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: should compete against each other and then althe beater, which 232 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: is great. Well um. A year later, in ninetift one, 233 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: Gibson became the first black player ever to compete at Wimbledon, 234 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: and she goes on to be the first in many things. 235 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 1: In nifty six, she was the first black person to 236 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: win the French Championships, and in nine seven she was 237 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: the first black person to win Wimbledon and the US Open, 238 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: and she was voted the Female Athlete of the Year 239 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 1: by the Associated Press and Notice we're saying black person 240 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: because she was the first male or female player of 241 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: color to do this, and she's sort of known for 242 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 1: for breaking those color lines, breaking down barriers for other players. 243 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: But as we'll get into in a little while, I mean, 244 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: when you talk about players like Arthur Ashe or the 245 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 1: Williams sisters, there's really not that many other people of 246 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: color playing tennis. There's still a lot of barriers there. Yeah, 247 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 1: I mean, it's still a predominantly white sport. But when 248 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: it comes to women's tennis, it has been a standout 249 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: among other professional sports in terms of how women have 250 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 1: really been able to pave their own way and also 251 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: have ripple effects into social changes within the broader population 252 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 1: um and a lot of that was led by Billy 253 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 1: Jean King and the other quote unquote Original nine players 254 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 1: who started up the Women's Tennis Association in nineteen seventy 255 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: and protest of male tennis players getting paid so much 256 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: more for wins, because, for instance, in nineteen seventy, Billy 257 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: Jean King received six hundred dollars for winning the Italian 258 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 1: Open while the men's champion earned right and a lot 259 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: of these players, a lot of the Original Nine had 260 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: a lot of junk to deal with from you know, 261 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: there were some Australian players who were not allowed to 262 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: play for their country anymore. There was like this huge 263 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: upheaval about you're you're just gonna leave and like start 264 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: a girl's only club. Well, that's not fair. We don't 265 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: want you then, to which they were like, no, but 266 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: see what you're doing isn't fair. So we're going to 267 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: start our own thing. And it's worth noting too that 268 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 1: this is within the context of Title nine being passed 269 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy two, so there is a lot of 270 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: attention being focused during this time in the early seventies 271 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: on women in sports. Yeah, and their efforts certainly paid off. 272 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy three, they did start the Women's Tennis 273 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 1: Association Tour. In the same year, the US Open started 274 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 1: offering equal purses to both men and women, and for 275 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: people unfamiliar with the tournament system, purses means prize. My 276 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: when I was a kid, I thought it meant that 277 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: people got highly decorated purses, and I still wanted one, 278 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:09,640 Speaker 1: But I wondered in my child brain, what would guy 279 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 1: do with that? Maybe he would keep his tennis balls 280 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 1: in there? Yes, his his tennis balls. Tennis balls. Um. 281 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: Same year nine, big year for gender issues and tennis. 282 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:27,400 Speaker 1: Let me tell you, because that is the year that 283 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 1: Billy Jean King and Bobby Riggs faced off at the 284 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 1: Houston Astrodome in the famed Battle of the Sexes. King 285 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: was just twenty nine and had just won Wimbledon. She's 286 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 1: a champ. Meanwhile, Riggs was fifty five years old and 287 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: had just beaten Margaret Court, the world's number one women's 288 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: tennis player, in what was called the Mother's Day Massacre. Yeah. Essentially, 289 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 1: he was doing these exhibition matches against women as part 290 00:17:55,480 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 1: of his public persona of being this outspoken ovanist. He 291 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 1: I mean, he called himself a chauvinist pig. He he 292 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,400 Speaker 1: thought it was like really funny and needed to make 293 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 1: some cash, and so these kinds of exhibition matches were 294 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: away for him to make some money, and he had 295 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:16,159 Speaker 1: beaten Court. But the thing is leading up to this 296 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: tennis match, as Billy Jane King, of course, his training 297 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:22,679 Speaker 1: and watching videos of Rigs and like making sure that 298 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:24,919 Speaker 1: she can beat him because this means a lot to 299 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:28,719 Speaker 1: her because she's an outspoken feminist at the time, and 300 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: this is really being built up into something that has 301 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:37,360 Speaker 1: a much broader social significance beyond the tennis court. But 302 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:41,919 Speaker 1: Riggs was doing pretty much nothing to train because he 303 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: had beaten Court and he just assumed that he would 304 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 1: similarly beat Billy Jean King. But that is not what happened, 305 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen. Uh. The l A. Harold Examiner headline 306 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 1: the day after the match was pigs are dead, long 307 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: live the King Billy Jane King one. In other words, yeah, 308 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: she won. And while there are still to this day 309 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,639 Speaker 1: lots of questions about the Battle of the Sexes, a 310 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: lot of angry people asserted that Riggs through the match 311 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: from money. Billy Jane King says, that's ridiculous. She saw 312 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 1: it in his eyes that he had lost and that 313 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: he knew he was losing and he didn't want to. Yeah, 314 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 1: I mean she was. She was basically saying, you know, 315 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 1: everybody chokes at some point, and it was just clear 316 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: on the court that he choked. But he also choked 317 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 1: in front of the largest tennis audience ever. It was 318 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: held at the freaking Astrodome, like it was held on 319 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 1: a genormous on a genormous stage, and that event is 320 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: such a time capsule. When you read all of the 321 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 1: ways that it was being framed, and he even was 322 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 1: brought into the tennis match, it was very hammy the 323 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: whole thing. He was brought in wearing a Sugar Daddy 324 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: rand jacket. You know, they can't the Sugar Daddy Candy 325 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 1: sponsored him, and so he was wearing the Sugar Daddy 326 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:10,160 Speaker 1: jacket and had these you know, bucks, some babes escorting 327 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 1: him out. Meanwhile, Billy Jane King came out. I forget 328 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,440 Speaker 1: who her sponsor was, but it was something similarly pro 329 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: woman and she should have been sponsored by Ortho Tricycline, 330 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:26,120 Speaker 1: but she was brought out um by a bunch of 331 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: hulking dudes. And it was this entire spectacle. But it 332 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 1: made a huge difference to a lot of both girls 333 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: and boys watching tennis that day, just to see a 334 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: woman beating Bobby Riggs. Yeah, and King talks about how 335 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:46,159 Speaker 1: you know, she knows that it made a difference to 336 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: two boys and men also because she has a lot 337 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 1: of guys come up to her still and say, you know, 338 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: I watched that, and now my daughter is a tennis 339 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:57,640 Speaker 1: player and all this stuff, and so it really made 340 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 1: huge waves throughout the whole, not just the tennis community, 341 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,920 Speaker 1: but really American society. Well. In speaking of making huge waves, 342 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 1: this is also a time where women's tennis was a 343 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 1: very early platform for LGBT visibility. There was a great 344 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,920 Speaker 1: quote in the book Love Game by Elizabeth Wilson, which 345 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:20,160 Speaker 1: is about tennis, um, which goes in the nineteen seventies, 346 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: all the feminists followed tennis because of Martina Navratalova. It 347 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: was a lesbian thing and um, this was in the 348 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:32,199 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies. That was before Navratalova officially came out, but 349 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 1: both she and Billy Jean King came out publicly in 350 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: ninety one, although King, who was actually married at the time, 351 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 1: was sort of forced out of the closet by her 352 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: former secretary, who I guess she had had a relationship with, 353 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 1: or the secretary alleged she had had a relationship with 354 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: and there was a Palimoni suit that kind of forced 355 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 1: King out of the closet. But then later that year, 356 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: Navratalova came out on her own terms well, which is 357 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: pretty innate. It's prety amazing that she came out on 358 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: her own terms after what happened to King, because I mean, 359 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: she was forced out of the closet, and that's bad enough, 360 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 1: but then she proceeds to lose all of her her deals, 361 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 1: her endorsements, her support, and so she was like, you know, 362 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 1: I've been thinking about retiring or you know, stopping playing tennis, 363 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: but all of a sudden, I can't because i have 364 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,360 Speaker 1: no more additional funds coming in. I've got to keep 365 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 1: playing tennis. And you know, it was really hard for 366 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: her and her family, her parents, she's described as homophobic, 367 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: but she talks about how society large was homophobic at 368 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 1: the time, and she said even a lot of LGBT 369 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: people were themselves homophobic at the time, and so it 370 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 1: was incredibly difficult for her, as a very public athlete, 371 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: to be forced out of the closet like that. So 372 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: it's even that much more impressive than avratilovitchose to come 373 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: out on her own terms after that. Yeah, And I 374 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 1: wonder if that was almost a bit of solidarity with King, 375 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: because another layer on top of that, too is that 376 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 1: Billy Jean King had been so closely aligned as well 377 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,880 Speaker 1: with the second wave feminist movement that had its own 378 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,160 Speaker 1: troubled relationship with lesbians. There was a lot of fear 379 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 1: within those circles that if they aligned with lesbians too 380 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:13,639 Speaker 1: closely then that would only you know, confirm the very 381 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:17,679 Speaker 1: you know, sexist, misogynistic stereotype at all feminists are just 382 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:19,720 Speaker 1: man hating lesbians and they're like, well, we don't need 383 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 1: that for our PR team. So there was clearly a 384 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 1: lot of conflict going on within King in this whole process. 385 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 1: So yeah, I just wonder, um uh, it's good in 386 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,120 Speaker 1: that way then that Navratalova came out because I think 387 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:39,359 Speaker 1: it probably helped move that pushed that momentum forward instead 388 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 1: of leaving it stalled in this more controversial coming out 389 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 1: that King experienced. Yeah, and you know, we talked about 390 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: pay earlier, and if we're if we circle back and 391 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:53,879 Speaker 1: look at that issue today, after all of these women 392 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: like Billy Jan King and Navratalova have you know, been 393 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 1: public faces of women's rights and huge the stars, surely 394 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,159 Speaker 1: like that must mean that all women and men are 395 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: getting equal pay in tennis, right, Yeah, no, not that 396 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 1: that's not necessarily the case. Um. And and this is 397 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:17,399 Speaker 1: despite the fact that beyond you know, King, Navratalova, the 398 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: original nine et cetera. Through the late eighties and forward. 399 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 1: We have Jennifer Capriotti, Stephie Graft, the Williams Sisters, Lindsay Davenport, 400 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 1: Martina Hingis, Monica Sellis, Martina Charapova, all of these names. 401 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: We could keep ongoing, all these women who have clearly 402 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 1: cemented women's tennis as a world class professional sport, and 403 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 1: yet there is still a lingering gender gap. And speaking 404 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:48,120 Speaker 1: of Wimbledon, why is it that women just play three 405 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: sets whereas men play five because they're playing a little 406 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 1: bit of pet ball. It's just the pet ball, just 407 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 1: a little bit of the pet ball over the net. 408 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 1: That women are are athletes, guys, and and she'll probably 409 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: just play five. That's just like the guys do. Although 410 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:03,439 Speaker 1: you know what, if I was out on a tennis 411 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 1: court right now, I'd probably be like three. Fine, Well, 412 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 1: it's very humid here today in Atlanta. I will to 413 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 1: give you that. Um. But yeah, so this whole issue 414 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: of of equal pay and equal time spent broadcasting women's 415 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 1: tennis is definitely still an issue, even though, as we've 416 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 1: talked about, it is definitely a sport where women on 417 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,479 Speaker 1: are on a more equal footing with their male counterparts. UM. 418 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:32,680 Speaker 1: Back in about sixty female professional players signed a petition 419 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: to the Women's Tennis Association for equal Grand Slam prize money. Yeah, 420 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: and then in two thousand seven, Wimbledon finally caved and 421 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:45,199 Speaker 1: became the last major to offer equal prize money. So 422 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 1: now all the Grand Slams have equal purses for men 423 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 1: and women, but that's often not the case at a 424 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: lot of lower profile events. And for you know, considering 425 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 1: the fact that a majority of tennis players are not 426 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: Venus and Serena Williams making money hand over fist, there's 427 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: actually quite a pay gap when you look at tennis 428 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 1: on the whole. Right, there was a study called Advantage Men, 429 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 1: the Sex Pay Gap in Professional Tennis that found that 430 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 1: female professional tennis players earned twenty three point four percent 431 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 1: less than their male counterparts. And then when you take 432 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,640 Speaker 1: in the issue of like women earning less than their 433 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: male counterparts and having to support themselves, it's it's a 434 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 1: really awful situation. Yeah, it can. It can definitely be 435 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:40,679 Speaker 1: tough out there for a not a list tennis player 436 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,920 Speaker 1: if you're trying to make a living out of it. Um. 437 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 1: And then there's this question too with the the athleticism, 438 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,440 Speaker 1: the question of why in Grand Slams, women play those 439 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 1: three sets as opposed to five, and a lot of 440 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: people say this is really um kind of harkening back 441 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:01,160 Speaker 1: to the Victorian era of ten It's because when it started, 442 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: it was under the the idea that women simply could 443 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 1: not withstand playing tennis for that long, when clearly these 444 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 1: world class players can absolutely do that. So some are 445 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 1: arguing that it should also be evened out to where 446 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,919 Speaker 1: women also play five sets, sort of drive home that 447 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 1: point that these are two groups of equally trained and 448 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 1: equally competent and talented athletes, right, because the whole three 449 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: set thing is often used as an argument to not 450 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,239 Speaker 1: pay women the same amount and prize money because it's like, oh, well, 451 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:33,920 Speaker 1: they don't even play as much as men. Date. Yeah, 452 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,160 Speaker 1: it's almost like calling them the opener, you know, at 453 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 1: a at a at a Rock and Rule show, Caroline. 454 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 1: And another gender gap pointed out by the Wall Street 455 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 1: Journal is in tennis officiating. If you look at the umpires, 456 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 1: only twenty two percent of the bronze level and above 457 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 1: chair umpires are women. And this might this probably isn't 458 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,640 Speaker 1: because they're trying to keep women out. It might be 459 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 1: for lack of interest. Oregon, lack of visibility. I have 460 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 1: no idea, though I'm not in the tennis world. I 461 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 1: don't know if being a cheer umpire is a position 462 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:12,119 Speaker 1: that people really grapple for. I know though that umpires, 463 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 1: for instance, in baseball, make a lot of money, as 464 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 1: you referees in the NFL. Right. Well, one woman they 465 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,360 Speaker 1: interviewed who was training to be one of these chair 466 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: umpires said she's basically like, well, I don't know why 467 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 1: more women aren't interested in this, you know, but maybe 468 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 1: it's because women don't want to get yelled at, oh, 469 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 1: by tennis players and coaches, by by the tennis players 470 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 1: and coaches, also by the audience. Yeah, that definitely seems 471 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: like a downside of the job. But that's whether you're 472 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 1: a man or a woman. Um. But when it comes 473 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 1: to to how these a list female tennis players are 474 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 1: more broadly publicized, how we talk about them. Um. There's 475 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 1: also this interesting term called big babe tennis that was 476 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: coined by Mary Carrillo that some think is oh, well, 477 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 1: it's just sort of it describes the style of tennis 478 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: today where you have these larger, muscular, athletic women who 479 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 1: play really powerful tennis. But apparently they're also babes. Yeah, 480 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 1: and I mean that that's an issue a lot of 481 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: people have have had a problem with because you know, 482 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 1: they're just their athletes. Talk about them. You you don't 483 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 1: call the guys like stud muffins, you know, I mean, 484 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: although you could, you could, but I mean, you know, 485 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 1: it's this whole idea that women aren't allowed to just 486 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: be athletes. They also have to be sexy. They've got 487 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 1: to be babes on the court. Yeah, I mean, and 488 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 1: that's something though that when you look at women in 489 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 1: sports in general, if you just google image like a 490 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 1: female athlete, a lot of times it ends up being 491 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 1: like sexy pin up kinds of photos, which you don't 492 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: see quite so much with men. I feel like that's 493 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 1: not so much a problem for tennis, but more how 494 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 1: we I guess I don't want to grasp just women 495 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 1: women as athletes. There always needs to be this sort 496 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: of sexualizing that happens. Well. Speaking of that, people are 497 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 1: trying to tell women that they can't grunt on the 498 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,480 Speaker 1: court when they hit the ball. Okay, yeah, I read 499 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 1: about this, Caroline, how the Women's Tennis Association in fact 500 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 1: is trying to tamp down on female grunting on court, 501 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: and I'm not going to demonstrate what that is on 502 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 1: Mike because I don't want all of our podcast listeners 503 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 1: to have get a get a case of tonitus from that. 504 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,959 Speaker 1: But I will say when I play Caroline, one of 505 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 1: my favorite things to do is grunt. It feels so 506 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 1: good when you hit the ball and make contact. Hopefully 507 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 1: in my case you can never know and get out 508 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 1: a good grunt. I feel like it helps. Yeah. Well, 509 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: and a lot of people would argue that it is 510 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: a physiological thing that it does help people men and 511 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: women propel the ball, have that burst of energy and 512 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 1: act and other people say, oh, they're just out there 513 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 1: screaming like crazy women trying to distract their opponent. Yeah, 514 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 1: there there might be a tactical benefit to it, because 515 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 1: if you grunt at the same time, it uh sort 516 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: of masks the sound of where on the rack at 517 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:20,479 Speaker 1: the tennis ball hit, which if you are a seasoned player, 518 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: will tell you where the ball is going to go, 519 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 1: whereas if you're me, I'm going to be running like 520 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 1: a crazy person from side to side anyway, because I 521 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 1: have no idea, but the tone, the tone of the 522 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 1: discussion about women's grunting is very gross to me because 523 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 1: and I don't mean gross like, I just mean that 524 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 1: it's it's distressing because everybody seems to be like women 525 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,479 Speaker 1: making noises they might also make when doing something like 526 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 1: in the bedroom or giving birth to a child from 527 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 1: their vaginas, like, oh, well, that's grows. No. Men grunting 528 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 1: is okay, that's like, that's not a sexual thing. I 529 00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 1: don't have a problem with that, But women grunting I 530 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 1: have a problem with that. Do you think, though, I 531 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 1: will give the Women's Tennis Association, which, by the way, 532 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 1: they this conversation came up in two thousand twelve, and 533 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 1: they were going to actually come up with almost a 534 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 1: grunt ometer that measured the sound of a player's grunt 535 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: and if she kind of got out of control, then 536 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 1: they would maybe find her for it. I think it's 537 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: a pretty undisputed fact though, that female tennis players probably 538 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,960 Speaker 1: grunt more than male tennis players. But it might still 539 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 1: be that physiological aspect of it, when it comes to 540 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 1: sex differences and upper body's strength. Maybe the grunting that 541 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: women I'm now like for people, for people listening, I'm 542 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 1: now making air tennis racket movements with my arms. Um, 543 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 1: but perhaps the grunting sort of makes up perhaps for 544 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 1: differences in our upper body strength. It gives us a 545 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 1: little bit more muscle, a little bit more heft. Well, 546 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 1: I watched a YouTube clip of one of the Williams 547 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 1: sisters playing against a Sharapova, and so you've got Sharapova 548 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: screaming and you've got Williams like grunting, and it's just 549 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 1: you're like wow, because a lot of people do say that. Okay, no, 550 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:11,960 Speaker 1: I don't care if it's a woman or a man. 551 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 1: It's just plain distracting for the fans. But who cares though, 552 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 1: I mean, we're not playing, Who cares? Yeah, I think Yeah. 553 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 1: There was a lot of a lot of debate about 554 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 1: it with some Um I think it was Billy gene 555 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 1: King actually who was a little ambivalent, but she definitely 556 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 1: wasn't she wasn't staunchly against it. She thought, well, you 557 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 1: know what, if if this will, if this will move 558 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 1: women's tennis forward, then okay, let's do it. Let's cut 559 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 1: down on the grunting. Yeah, but a lot of people 560 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 1: are you know, the pitch they say that, you know, 561 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,240 Speaker 1: women just have a higher pitch and that is grading 562 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 1: on the average tennis viewer. Well, that's when it gets 563 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 1: to circles back around too. Well, now you're just being 564 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 1: rude about our voices. This is just how we talk 565 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 1: slash slash uh scream sometimes. Well, so you know I 566 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 1: mentioned before our our mid role break that you have 567 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,879 Speaker 1: a woman like Althea Gibson who broke down a lot 568 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 1: of color barriers in the sport and a lot of 569 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: barriers for women. Um, but that there was not this 570 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,960 Speaker 1: huge flood of people of color of women of color 571 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 1: after her. So obviously there are still these barriers today. 572 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 1: And so I mean, looking forward, I mean I hope 573 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 1: that we see more diversity coming up in tennis. Well, 574 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 1: I think tennis is a challenge has a challenging barrier 575 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 1: of entry because unlike say a team sport like football, 576 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:47,719 Speaker 1: where a kid from a lower socio economic background can 577 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 1: maybe hop on a team at school, Um, tennis I 578 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 1: think is a little more isolated. And I mean if 579 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,759 Speaker 1: you look at Serena and Venus Williams, so we really 580 00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 1: I mean we could have done an entire podcast just 581 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:05,600 Speaker 1: on them. Mean they trained for six plus hours a day, 582 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: I mean they were I mean, and it was their 583 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 1: father's intention to raise two world class tennis players, and 584 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,400 Speaker 1: it takes so much time and a lot of resources. 585 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 1: And I mean the Williams sisters did not grow up 586 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 1: wealthy at all. But it took a father who almost 587 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 1: like Tiger Woods as father who trained those kids from 588 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,319 Speaker 1: I mean they were I think five and six years 589 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 1: old when they started playing up until now to be 590 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 1: who they are. Yeah, So it still seems like their 591 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:40,799 Speaker 1: race aside, it does still seem like there is a 592 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,800 Speaker 1: socio economic barrier a lot of the time to getting 593 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 1: involved in this competitive tennis because you know, the Williams sisters, 594 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:49,359 Speaker 1: they all moved to Florida to train at a really 595 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:53,359 Speaker 1: elite tennis school in Florida. Like who who can do that? 596 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 1: Not everybody can do that well. And even today, if 597 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,839 Speaker 1: you think about the fancier suburban neighborhoods, they're the one 598 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 1: with tennis courts in the pool and they have access 599 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 1: to that, whereas it can be a lot harder. I mean, 600 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 1: we have there there's actually a public tennis court near me, 601 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:15,520 Speaker 1: but it's usually locked up and the nets you know, 602 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:17,880 Speaker 1: sometimes up, sometimes down. I mean a lot of times 603 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,359 Speaker 1: you know, those those more accessible resources aren't always kept 604 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,240 Speaker 1: up so well. Yeah, but what is interesting to see, 605 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:28,480 Speaker 1: um with this progression of tennis is that today if 606 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,880 Speaker 1: you look at the top two female tennis players in 607 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 1: the world, it's two women of color. It's Serena Williams 608 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 1: at number one and Lena at number two. Yeah, I mean, 609 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:40,759 Speaker 1: I think it's I think tennis is such a and 610 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 1: we've said this, but I mean, I think tennis is 611 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:47,840 Speaker 1: such an interesting example for our girls coming up behind 612 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:52,680 Speaker 1: us because it does have this history of gender equality. 613 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: Might be too strong to say, but I mean of 614 00:36:55,760 --> 00:37:00,640 Speaker 1: letting women in, of not keeping them out, and these 615 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:04,920 Speaker 1: these incredible names in African American tennis, these incredible women 616 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,560 Speaker 1: who made names for themselves and breakdown barriers in that 617 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 1: regard to Yeah, I mean, when it comes to sports, 618 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,520 Speaker 1: tennis usually is cited as the standout in terms of 619 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 1: gender equity. But it's also because women fought for it. 620 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,839 Speaker 1: You know, they formed the Women's Tennis Association, they demanded 621 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 1: equal purses and so far they've gotten it, which is 622 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:31,279 Speaker 1: pretty incredible too. So now we want to hear from 623 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:35,040 Speaker 1: folks out there. Are there any tennis fans listening? Tennis players, 624 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,319 Speaker 1: who's your favorite tennis player. Let us know all of 625 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 1: your tennis and Wimbledon thoughts. Mom Stuff at how stuff 626 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:43,680 Speaker 1: works dot Com is where you can email us. You 627 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 1: can also tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast or messages 628 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,440 Speaker 1: on Facebook, and we have a couple of messages to 629 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:55,880 Speaker 1: share with you right now. Okay, Well, I have a 630 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 1: letter here from Kara about our Women in Animation episode. 631 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,200 Speaker 1: She says, I recently started looking at GRAB schools for animation, 632 00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 1: and I've only gotten a chance to tour one of 633 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,160 Speaker 1: them so far. My boyfriend went with me to the school, 634 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:10,319 Speaker 1: and when we were there, we were introduced to many 635 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,040 Speaker 1: of the staff, all men. Every time we met a 636 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:16,239 Speaker 1: new staff member, they consistently started talking to my boyfriend 637 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,640 Speaker 1: about the program, not me. When they saw that I 638 00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,719 Speaker 1: was the one responding and asking questions, they stopped talking 639 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,320 Speaker 1: and asked which one of us was planning on attending. 640 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 1: At the end of the tour, the woman that was 641 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 1: showing us around, an administrator not an artist, apologized to 642 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:32,919 Speaker 1: me and told me that the classes are eighty five 643 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,239 Speaker 1: percent male, so no one would assume that I was 644 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:37,920 Speaker 1: the one applying. She seemed a little sad that it 645 00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,920 Speaker 1: was so male dominated and encouraged me to apply to 646 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,839 Speaker 1: help women get into the business just a little bit more. 647 00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:46,840 Speaker 1: Just one of the many times I've experienced a gender 648 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 1: gap in art recently. Uh, Kara, I'm sorry about that experience, 649 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,560 Speaker 1: but good for you forgetting an animation that's really cool. Yeah. Um. 650 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:59,240 Speaker 1: I've got one here from Joanna about our episode on imagination, 651 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:03,319 Speaker 1: and she writes, I do still at one spent a 652 00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:07,400 Speaker 1: lot of time daydreaming, slash imagining, slash telling myself stories 653 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,040 Speaker 1: in my head, but they're nowhere near as vivid and 654 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,000 Speaker 1: almost physical as the ones I had when I was 655 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 1: a kid. I was an avid lover of horses from 656 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:16,760 Speaker 1: an early age, and spent a lot of time pretending 657 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,200 Speaker 1: to have a horse or be a horse with friends 658 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,400 Speaker 1: or alone. And it's crazy how real it was. It 659 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,920 Speaker 1: was probably partly because I was regularly riding horses and 660 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:30,200 Speaker 1: interacting with horses, but still, when I was galloping around 661 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:32,919 Speaker 1: in the forest or on our lawn, it was so 662 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:36,080 Speaker 1: much like being on an actual horse, or even being 663 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,959 Speaker 1: a horse. And oh the horses I imagined I had, 664 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 1: and how I loved them. And Joanna, I can only 665 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:47,520 Speaker 1: recommend that you head over to stuff I've never told 666 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 1: you dot com and search for the video why Girls 667 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 1: Love Horses. There's also a podcast on it and you're 668 00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:57,719 Speaker 1: gonna love it. If you love horses that much, then 669 00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 1: we have a video and a podcast for you, and 670 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:03,799 Speaker 1: also for all of our other listeners as well. If 671 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:06,319 Speaker 1: you want to email us, you can write us Mom 672 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:08,800 Speaker 1: stuff at how stuff works dot com. You can also 673 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,400 Speaker 1: find links to again all of our videos, podcasts, and 674 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:19,239 Speaker 1: blogs at stuff mom Never Told You dot com. For 675 00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:21,719 Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics, is it 676 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:30,919 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com