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Speaker 1: Well, brother, thank you so much for taking this time.

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Speaker 1: You you are a friend, You're also a pastor, You're

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Speaker 1: a you are You're so careful and bold and courageous

4
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Speaker 1: and humble and gentle, and it kind of kind of

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Speaker 1: all wrapped up into one. And I just I'm blessed

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Speaker 1: to know you and.

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Speaker 2: I feel the same, brother. What an honor to jump

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Speaker 2: on with you today. And just I think I told

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Speaker 2: you before like you're The way that you balance truth

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Speaker 2: and kindness is next level man, and so it's a

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Speaker 2: privilege to be your friend and watch you do ministry.

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Speaker 1: Well, thank you, brother. I was trying to think before

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Speaker 1: you got on here, how exactly we met, and so

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Speaker 1: I think I think I can give it a shot here.

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Speaker 1: I saw you on a podcast and it was with

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Speaker 1: Costy I know, that's the first time I saw you,

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Speaker 1: and I just thought, Wow, this is this guy, this

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Speaker 1: guy's story, you know, praise the Lord. So I went

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Speaker 1: and followed you on Instagram and then I believe this

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Speaker 1: is the part where he could teaze you. I believe

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Speaker 1: I was kind of liking your post commenting and at

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Speaker 1: some point somebody DMed each other it was you or me.

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Speaker 2: I I didn't know who you were. And I hate

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Speaker 2: to say that, because sure, you know, I've since learned,

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Speaker 2: But like, all I saw was there was a singer

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Speaker 2: guy that had followed and was liking things. And then

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Speaker 2: the first time I clicked on your name, I saw

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Speaker 2: the story obviously about about losing river. And so what

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Speaker 2: I did is I texted, I said, hey, man, is

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Speaker 2: this a story that you tell? And you said absolutely,

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Speaker 2: I'd love to. But I didn't. I didn't know you'd

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Speaker 2: written the book. I didn't know that you were telling

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Speaker 2: the world what the Lord had done. And so, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was so neat when you when you fired back,

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Speaker 2: and we've yeah, we've had a friendship ever since.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we at some point we exchanged phone numbers. I

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Speaker 1: remember we talked on the phone for a significant amount

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Speaker 1: of time, just kind of telling stories. I came up

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Speaker 1: and I think.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of similarities in our story because both

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Speaker 2: of us were coming up with a I think we

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Speaker 2: both have used the term cultural Christianity right like where Yeah,

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Speaker 2: we we just kind of assumed we were saved, and

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Speaker 2: we were we were growing up around church. But then

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Speaker 2: you know, later on in life, the Lord grabbed us,

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Speaker 2: woke us up and transformed us, and so I think

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Speaker 2: that's something that we share for sure.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Amen. So I've been out there a couple of

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Speaker 1: times to Coasta, Mesa to preach and once for a

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Speaker 1: marriage conference with Amber, and that is thanks for doing that, man. Man,

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Speaker 1: that's a beautiful place to go, you know, Southern.

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Speaker 2: Can I tell everybody what you said? What I'm like, Hey, man,

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Speaker 2: you thanks for coming. You said, Well, here's the big question.

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Speaker 2: Now are you still doing three services?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 2: Is that is that because you're tired? Bro? Come on, man,

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Speaker 2: you work out. I see the I see the the

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Speaker 2: biceps there. You know, you and I. I just never

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Speaker 2: had a guy come and by the time they're done

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Speaker 2: with that third service, not not say it was tough, man,

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Speaker 2: because you're back to back to back, So thanks for

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Speaker 2: doing it.

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Speaker 1: Of course it's it is tough, you know. I will

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Speaker 1: say the second one is not bad. The second one,

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Speaker 1: you think, Yeah, I think I I think I actually

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Speaker 1: perfected a little bit of what I was trying to

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Speaker 1: say in the first service. But then the third service,

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking, did I say this already? I think I

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Speaker 1: used this illustration before I forgot I think I'll just repeat.

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Speaker 2: I finally told the third service, you got to start

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Speaker 2: helping us, man like you got to be with us,

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Speaker 2: give us some amens, you know, kind of carry it

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Speaker 2: for me. Yeah, it's been fun, but thanks for being

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Speaker 2: willing to give up your time and come out and preach.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's a it's it's a church that I personally love,

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Speaker 1: love those people. And of course it's like I said,

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Speaker 1: it's a it's a beautiful place to go anyway. So

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Speaker 1: I I love what you have done there and that's

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Speaker 1: part of what I want to talk about today. And

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Speaker 1: you know, on this show, I have I've kind of

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Speaker 1: gently walked in several places showing people what what is

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Speaker 1: it what is it like to have a good church,

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Speaker 1: what's it like to be part of a good church?

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Speaker 1: What does that even mean? And we've gone there, we've

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Speaker 1: we've we've actually talked also about do I even need

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Speaker 1: to go to church? You know, maybe maybe I find

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Speaker 1: God in the woods. A lot of people say that,

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't need a church to get closer

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Speaker 1: to God, which in its essence and me saying that

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Speaker 1: is true, you know, but there's more, there's more to

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Speaker 1: the story that that doesn't end there. And so we've

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Speaker 1: we've kind of lightly walked down all these paths and

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Speaker 1: and what I want to talk about with you is

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Speaker 1: you have a fascinating story because you came from one

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Speaker 1: one way to church and you went to another way

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Speaker 1: to church and the Lord took you there in a

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Speaker 1: dramatic way. And so can you tell me a little

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Speaker 1: bit about the your first pastoral job.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, my first pastoral job. So I think most testimonies

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Speaker 2: are the same, especially in the ministry. You go from

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Speaker 2: like a you know, we're all rebels and we're depraved,

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Speaker 2: and the Lord regenerates this, and then I think a

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Speaker 2: lot of times we get locked into a revivalistic kind

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Speaker 2: of ministry. I call it revivalism, where the idea is

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Speaker 2: I'm on fire for the Lord. I got saved in

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Speaker 2: a very large attractional megachurch, and so I'm just a

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Speaker 2: guy armed with John three sixteen wanting to save everybody.

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Speaker 2: And so, long story short, the other pastor asked if

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Speaker 2: i'd want to teach on a Tuesday night. I get up,

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Speaker 2: I grab a microphone, I start yelling, and people started,

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Speaker 2: you know, attending. But that was all that I knew.

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Speaker 2: So when that ministry started growing, you know, at one point,

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Speaker 2: I think we were at we were over two thousand

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Speaker 2: students college students, and we were basically I call it pragmatism.

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Speaker 2: I mean it's where you're just putting on a show.

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Speaker 2: You are trying to get people in the door in order.

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Speaker 1: To save them.

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Speaker 2: And the idea is church as opposed to gathering to

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Speaker 2: worship and then scattering to witness just becomes a you're

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Speaker 2: gathering in order to see people saved.

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Speaker 1: Occasionally, I want to stop you because yeah, yeah, because

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Speaker 1: I've I've talked to you a lot about this, but

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Speaker 1: I also want to slow down so that people could

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Speaker 1: catch some of these words. We'll start by saying, big

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Speaker 1: church is not bad. I've said that many times on

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Speaker 1: this show. Big church not it is not bad. Small

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Speaker 1: church is not good, uh, and vice versa. So that

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Speaker 1: that's not what we're saying. But what do you mean?

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Speaker 1: I'll start with the definition of attractional church. What does

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Speaker 1: that mean?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great quote clarification. What I mean is

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Speaker 2: that the the ecclesiology of the church, or is that

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Speaker 2: if we just take a purely biblical framework, I'm going

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Speaker 2: to stop for the church. No, that's fine, We'll go

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Speaker 2: definition of terms and semantics right. Yeah, So if we

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Speaker 2: just take the Bible and go, okay, Jesus comes to earth,

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Speaker 2: he lives a perfect life, He dies a sinner's death

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Speaker 2: as a substitution in my place, in my stead, the

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Speaker 2: stead of his people. He rises on the third day,

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Speaker 2: according to the scriptures. He then in the day of

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Speaker 2: Pentecost sends, he goes to heaven, sends, the Holy Spirit

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Speaker 2: launches this beautiful thing we call the church. It's been

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Speaker 2: going on for two thousand years, all different expressions. Right.

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Speaker 2: What we do is we go back to the New

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Speaker 2: Testament and we go, okay, what would be the framework

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Speaker 2: or the guidelines for this beautiful organism that Jesus has

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Speaker 2: left us? And so by and large you'll see elements

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Speaker 2: that are the same across the board. You're going to

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Speaker 2: have a time of praise, You're gonna have a time

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Speaker 2: of prayer, you're gonna have a time of scripture, teaching,

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Speaker 2: and typically the ordinances are practiced, you know, baptism and communion,

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Speaker 2: So that's pretty normal. What then tends to change are

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Speaker 2: going to be how those things are practiced, sure in

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Speaker 2: different denominations. But also what I'm talking about would be

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Speaker 2: when I say attractional is instead of the saints, the

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Speaker 2: focus of the church being for the saints coming to

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Speaker 2: worship God in reverential awe and then grow in the

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Speaker 2: Word and then go out or scatter to witness. A

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Speaker 2: lot of times, what happens since the revivals of Charles

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Speaker 2: Finny and the Second grad Awakening, and there's a whole

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Speaker 2: western frontier expansion and go into another time. What happened

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Speaker 2: was church is realized we can actually use Sunday as

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Speaker 2: a and this goes back to Schuler and then Bill

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Speaker 2: Hybels and eventually realk Warm. We can use Sunday as

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Speaker 2: a time to witness. So we're going to preach on

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Speaker 2: the same seven or eight topics there tend to going

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Speaker 2: to be felt need based things that everyone's working through.

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Speaker 2: And then we're gonna maybe give an altar call and

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Speaker 2: give people a chance to respond to the Gospel and

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Speaker 2: then we'll trust that in our small groups or on

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Speaker 2: Wednesday nights whatever, then we can do the real deep growth, yes,

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Speaker 2: for the true Christians. And so what I bring up

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Speaker 2: all those buzzwords, all I'm saying is the folk g

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Speaker 2: is point folk point of the church as Christ intended.

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Speaker 2: It kind of kind of flipped somewhere in the early

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Speaker 2: eighties and the early nineties, and so that's what I

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Speaker 2: was saved in. Does that Does that help a little bit?

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Speaker 1: Yes, you're saying the focal point the flip happens when

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Speaker 1: you become instead of a church that's the purpose is

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Speaker 1: growing Christians. That flips to evangelizing unbelievers.

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Speaker 2: Correct. Yeah, primarily on Sunday mornings in corporate worship.

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Speaker 1: Which Christians should evangelize unbelievers. But you're saying you're using

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Speaker 1: the platform of the Sunday morning gathering for that purpose.

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Speaker 1: And when that happens, problems start.

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Speaker 2: Well, sure, because you're going to constantly begin engineering new

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Speaker 2: things to try to attract people with good intentions most often, yes,

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Speaker 2: but you're going to begin to lose the in the

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Speaker 2: purest sense, the primary focus that Christ intended.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that's what I was saved. So let's pick back

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Speaker 1: up in the story. You're this is what you're saved in,

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Speaker 1: and so this is all you know, that's it? Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I had grown up in a conservative Baptist church,

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Speaker 2: and so I had a framework underneath that that that

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Speaker 2: that remembers proper ecclesiology, biblical format for church but then

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Speaker 2: when I get saved, that's what I'm around. And so

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Speaker 2: I started doing it like everyone else that I knew,

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Speaker 2: and we did it good. I mean, we've all seen churches,

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Speaker 2: and I'm not picking on anybody. We've all been a

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Speaker 2: part of churches where you know, the bands are great,

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Speaker 2: the the hazers are on the you know, sometimes I'd

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Speaker 2: preach a sermon and you know, hang from a rope

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Speaker 2: to show how we need to cling to Jesus and

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Speaker 2: all that stuff. Uh. And it was young adult ministry.

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Speaker 2: It was fun. We did the same seven topics of

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Speaker 2: depression and loneliness and sex and all that stuff, and

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Speaker 2: it was and it worked. It really worked. I mean

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Speaker 2: there were where thousands that came, hundreds of people would

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Speaker 2: come forward on a Wednesday night. The entire city was

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Speaker 2: ignited through the outreach and the excitement the zeal of

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Speaker 2: the kids. So it was exciting. But that was where

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Speaker 2: you talk about the story. Then, you know, began to

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Speaker 2: change as we came out to plant Mission Bible in

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Speaker 2: twenty ten and the Lord broke me down. Man, it

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Speaker 2: was like all I knew was that Oprah Winfrey version

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Speaker 2: and kind of bait and switch getting them to come

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Speaker 2: back the next week. I come out here in Orange

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Speaker 2: County to plant the church. And long story short, the

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Speaker 2: Lord just the Lord just just just took my knees out.

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Speaker 2: And I was showing up on Sunday mornings. We were

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Speaker 2: doing that stuff and it wasn't. It wasn't working the

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Speaker 2: way that it had before. I kind of thought, we'll

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Speaker 2: come out here, plant the church, snap our fingers, and

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Speaker 2: it'll be a couple thousand, and it wasn't. And I

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Speaker 2: remember going home one Sunday afternoon after church and I

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Speaker 2: had a you know, a deep almost an extis central

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Speaker 2: crisis would be a word I would use. Where I

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Speaker 2: sat on my couch and I looked up at the wall. Uh,

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Speaker 2: and I just pray to said, Lord, if this is

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Speaker 2: what church is, this idea that on a on a

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Speaker 2: on a man level, I can go in, we can

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Speaker 2: go in and we just hype it, and that's what

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Speaker 2: church is. If that's what this is, I don't, I don't.

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Speaker 2: I don't know that I want to do it.

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Speaker 1: And so let me tell law here, because this is

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Speaker 1: this is an amazing moment. And you have been clear

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Speaker 1: before that you, you and the other pastors and the

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Speaker 1: and we could speak for a lot of other attractional churches.

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Speaker 1: They aren't actively trying to deceive people. They're doing this

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Speaker 1: out of what do you call it ignorant like it's

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Speaker 1: well intended.

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Speaker 2: It's well intended though sometimes non theologically attuned effort.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: So you have the best of intentions. Yes, yes, you're

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Speaker 2: armed with John three sixteen. You have a low anthropology,

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Speaker 2: you know, a low view maybe of of what's required

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Speaker 2: to have a man saved, and you're just you're just

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Speaker 2: pushing the ball downfield. Yes, but there comes a point

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Speaker 2: where you realize if this thing can be engineered on

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Speaker 2: a human level, that's frightening because it doesn't require supernatural efficacy.

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Speaker 2: That's what happened to me. Yeah, So I'm just sitting there, going, Lord,

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Speaker 2: if this is what it is, he was so gracious.

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Speaker 2: I got in the car the next morning to go

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Speaker 2: work out, and there's a guy barking on the radio.

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Speaker 2: I remember who it was, some old guy about the

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Speaker 2: glory of God, you know, and I'm listening and going,

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Speaker 2: whatever that is, that's what my heart is excited about,

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Speaker 2: which we know understand is big God theology. And so

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Speaker 2: I wait till the end of the program and I'm

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Speaker 2: getting online, I'm buying the books, and then the footnote

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Speaker 2: of that book actually led me down this trail, this

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Speaker 2: long trail of you read footnotes in a book and

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Speaker 2: it takes shit all the way from nineteenth century, eighteenth

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Speaker 2: century Jonathan Edwards, all the way back to Luther, the Reformation,

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Speaker 2: all the way to the Church Fathers, and my soul

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Speaker 2: over the course of those next two three months, just

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Speaker 2: began to grasp things for the first time that I

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Speaker 2: that that felt like, I know it sounds crazy to say,

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Speaker 2: but it felt like another rebirth. Yeah, it's like I

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Speaker 2: had been saved. But you hear people talk about it

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Speaker 2: John Piper does all the time, like it's almost like

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Speaker 2: when when you understand reformational theology, it's like another rebirth

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Speaker 2: that all exists for God, all things are from Him,

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Speaker 2: through Him, into Him. And so that's when I realized, Okay,

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Speaker 2: we have the church upside down. And I was off

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Speaker 2: at a study leave and I fall to my face.

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Speaker 2: I remember, and what was impressed on me so strong.

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Speaker 2: It was like the spirit was like, you know, Jonah

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Speaker 2: was running the opposite direction. You're going to get up

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Speaker 2: off your knees, You're can get off. You know, I

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Speaker 2: was in tears, and you're going to stand up in

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Speaker 2: whatever the Bible says. You're going to go back at

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Speaker 2: that church, and you're going to do it even if

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Speaker 2: it cost you everything. And so we did, and so

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Speaker 2: we did. I mean, that was the story you mentioned

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Speaker 2: COSTI and all those guys. We all moved from being

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Speaker 2: pastors to pastors and training. We all those guys went

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Speaker 2: off to seminary. Can you we went off to school, Tony,

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Speaker 2: Can you tell me what happened? What happened, like, what

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Speaker 2: was the first conversation that happened? I mean, you come,

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Speaker 2: you come off your knees. And by the way, we're

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Speaker 2: not we're not talking about your coming out of rehab

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Speaker 2: from drugs and alcohol.

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Speaker 1: You're you're already a pastor and and a sincere pastor.

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Speaker 1: You know, like you said you had Cora ecclesiology, but

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Speaker 1: you you were sincere. What did you say? What was

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Speaker 1: the first thing you said?

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Speaker 2: Well to my wife, I told her, I said, I

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Speaker 2: think we're getting this wrong. We've got this wrong. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and it's upside down. I don't even know all the

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Speaker 2: answers yet, but we need help. And so we had

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Speaker 2: some older pastors that had stepped in, made some phone

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Speaker 2: called John MacArthur called left a message on the phone

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Speaker 2: and I remember, you left this long voicemail for Costy

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Speaker 2: and he said, you know, you're a brand snatch from

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Speaker 2: the fire and this long thing. And that wasn't even

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Speaker 2: those weren't even guys that I knew anything about. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I just didn't have that that framework. That wasn't my camp.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 2: And so I remember talking Debris and crying with her

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Speaker 2: and then talking to her. I began studying about the

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Speaker 2: doctrines of Grace. And I don't want to offend everyone listening,

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Speaker 2: but that for me was game game changer. Understanding that

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Speaker 2: I'm totally depraved, that I require the unconditional hand of

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Speaker 2: God to unlock my heart so that for the rest

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Speaker 2: of time I will be protected by him and I'm

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Speaker 2: eternally secure. And that was big. So we set up

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Speaker 2: some classes. I remember we had a membership class and

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Speaker 2: we you know, we had a group come in. I

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Speaker 2: started just teaching on the doctrines of grace. That that's

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Speaker 2: what I knew. And there was this long journey of

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Speaker 2: basically just being a little bit out front of everybody

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Speaker 2: and wherever I was learning. I was then teaching them,

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Speaker 2: and so I'd give everyone these big white binders and

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Speaker 2: it was like I would just copy and paste Charles

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Speaker 2: Spurgeon and they're looking at me like I remember, we

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Speaker 2: had to fire the worship team. They were all contracting musicians,

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Speaker 2: and so we had to call them up and say basically, guys,

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Speaker 2: you know, we got to let you go. And I

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Speaker 2: think one Sunday we might have had one girl that

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Speaker 2: was willing to get up and join me and I

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Speaker 2: had to sing with her. We had no singing. We

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Speaker 2: lost a couple hundred people that left frustrated. So it

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Speaker 2: was quite a time.

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Speaker 1: You said, you mentioned earlier you said I don't want

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Speaker 1: to offend anybody. I know what you mean by that,

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Speaker 1: But why would that offend anybody?

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm not sure who your listenership is. You I

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Speaker 2: think I want to be thoughtful that people who aren't

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Speaker 2: entirely in the reformed world, I don't. I don't want

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Speaker 2: them to get the thought that I'm saying that they're

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Speaker 2: all wrong.

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Speaker 1: Okay, fair enough, so regardless of if you say they're

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Speaker 1: wrong or not, and I'm not either, But why would

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Speaker 1: someone be offended at a big god theology.

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Speaker 2: Pride, pride, it goes all the way back. That's what

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Speaker 2: Erasmus and so a lot of people think the Reformation

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Speaker 2: was fought over indulgences in the papacy, but as you know,

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Speaker 2: I know you're at Southern, it wasn't. And underneath all

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Speaker 2: of that there was this seven year debate that began

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Speaker 2: between Luther and Erasmus, and the idea was Erasmus as

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Speaker 2: a humanist who's writing for the papacy ultimately, even though

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Speaker 2: he had issues with them, is saying like, there is

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Speaker 2: just enough good inside of you, semi Pelagian, right, there's

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Speaker 2: just enough good inside of you that if you work

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Speaker 2: hard enough and the Church comes alongside you, you will

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Speaker 2: in fact be able to get to God. In fact,

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Speaker 2: you're gonna warrant his grace. And Luther's bone in the

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Speaker 2: Reformation when he nails the nine to five thesis, it

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Speaker 2: started on the external. I don't like the fact that

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Speaker 2: you're selling indulgences and saying that if you, if you pay,

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Speaker 2: you know, we'll get you one million, nine hundred and

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Speaker 2: twenty eight two hundred less years in purgatory. His issue

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Speaker 2: was underneath that, what you were saying was is that

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Speaker 2: we can help you get to heaven, and his study

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Speaker 2: of the scriptures, he came to the realization that there's

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Speaker 2: zero good inside of man. Yea, we are totally depraved.

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Speaker 2: We're dead, no trespass and sins, and so that the

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Speaker 2: heartbeat of the Reformation was it's entirely a work of

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Speaker 2: God that you are saved sovereign grace and sovereign grace alone.

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Speaker 2: And so I think it's our pride, you know how

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Speaker 2: it is a lot of times we go, well, logically,

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Speaker 2: that doesn't make sense to me. It makes God seem unfair.

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Speaker 2: But Luther's point was what does the Bible actually say?

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Speaker 2: And what the Bible says is that you're dead and

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Speaker 2: you needed the regenerating work of the spirit in order

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Speaker 2: to even turn and believe.

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Speaker 1: Especially in America where we really value our freedom in

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Speaker 1: our autonomy, and for someone to say you don't have autonomy.

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Speaker 1: God has autonomy, perfect autonomy. We take offense to that.

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Speaker 1: And that's always interesting to me to kind of wrestle

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Speaker 1: back and forth with why people get so upset with

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Speaker 1: this idea that God is sovereign, even over evil and

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Speaker 1: even over salvation, and it is it is I wondered

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Speaker 1: often because I wonder, why is that a touchy subject?

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Speaker 1: Why wouldn't people say you believe that way, That's okay,

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Speaker 1: no problem, I believe this way you believe. Why wouldn't

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Speaker 1: people do that like they would with paidal baptism, you know,

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Speaker 1: But but they don't. And and and I think maybe

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Speaker 1: one of the implications of that is that if you

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Speaker 1: think this way, do you think that God is sovereign

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Speaker 1: even over salvation, then why would you evangelize? Then why

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Speaker 1: would you? Why would you Why wouldn't you just stay

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Speaker 1: in your couch and eat potato chips and reach a

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Speaker 1: Bible and and and be arrogant? And uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: why would you? Why wouldn't you do that? And that's

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Speaker 1: the opposite, you know that. That's called hyper calvinism. And sure,

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Speaker 1: so many times I'm kind of fighting against that. I'm

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Speaker 1: probably honestly, I'm probably opening up more right now than

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Speaker 1: I ever have on this pot guess. But but this

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Speaker 1: is something I deal with every day. We have man.

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Speaker 1: God is sovereign, and yet man has a responsibility to

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Speaker 1: respond to the Gospel. And those are two parallel lines

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Speaker 1: that do not intersect on this side of heaven. That's

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Speaker 1: what you believe. And so yes, you believe that that

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Speaker 1: God is sovereign. But you you also believe, which is

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Speaker 1: why you're a pastor, which is why you'll be in

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Speaker 1: the pulpit this Sunday, because you believe.

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Speaker 2: I want to jump in with you and say I

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Speaker 2: do sympathize and empathize. After coming out of that that

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Speaker 2: world into the world that I'm in, I struggled for

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Speaker 2: a year or two when I'm realizing, like, oh my goodness,

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Speaker 2: you know, God is sovereign over all these things, and

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Speaker 2: I'm struggling going well, when I walked the aisle and

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Speaker 2: prayed the prayer, I thought it was it was me

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Speaker 2: that was my decision to follow Jesus. Now I'm reading

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Speaker 2: in the Bible and it saying no, it was his

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Speaker 2: decision to come get me. But then as I began

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Speaker 2: to read the scripture, brother, and I'm I'm sure you've

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Speaker 2: had the same thing, it was like, the scripture is

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Speaker 2: the revealed will of God is what showed me that

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Speaker 2: I was wrong, Because I'm going all right. It says

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Speaker 2: that He created the world and the Son of Me

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Speaker 2: and the stars, and I agree with that he did

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Speaker 2: nobody else could have yeah. And then it says that

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Speaker 2: that he reached down and he he saved Noah on

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Speaker 2: that boat, and I go, okay, I believe that, and

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Speaker 2: that he chose Abraham and he was going to start

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Speaker 2: a nation. Eventually there's Moses, and he protects the nation

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Speaker 2: of Israel through the wilderness wanderings, and he he hardens

430
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,160
Speaker 2: fail his heart, and he he then saves them through

431
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,720
Speaker 2: prophets that predict the coming of his son, and he

432
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:35,760
Speaker 2: sends his son in the appointed time. And I'm going,

433
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:37,560
Speaker 2: I believe that. I believe that. I believe that. And

434
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,000
Speaker 2: he he starts this thing called the church and sends

435
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,199
Speaker 2: his Holy Spirit, and then he ignites this that he

436
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 2: commissions these apostles to go out and tell me about

437
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,159
Speaker 2: it and build the beautiful temple on his living stones

438
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:49,360
Speaker 2: unto his glory. And I'm going I believe that that

439
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,440
Speaker 2: that that that. But then if I believe all that,

440
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,400
Speaker 2: naturally I have to to come to the conclusion that

441
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 2: also he's the one that saved me. It's not like

442
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,080
Speaker 2: he did all that. And then I'm the one standalone

443
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:04,240
Speaker 2: in the universe that decided to go after Jesus. And

444
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,520
Speaker 2: so I think that's when I eventually hit my face

445
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 2: and thought, Okay, Lord, I get it. This is all

446
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:11,440
Speaker 2: you for all time.

447
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:16,159
Speaker 1: But Tony, there is no love unless you have the

448
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 1: free will to choose against it, says says who says.

449
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 1: All the people commenting right now is.

450
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,919
Speaker 2: That what they're saying. Well, there are others that, There

451
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:31,440
Speaker 2: are others that have said that, there are others that

452
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:32,919
Speaker 2: have said that. They're not alone, And we can go

453
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,120
Speaker 2: back through history and we can go through the apologetic

454
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:41,120
Speaker 2: from the other side. But the reality in scripture is that, yes,

455
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 2: I have the ability to make decisions.

456
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:43,919
Speaker 1: Correct.

457
00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 2: I have the ability to make a whole bunch of decisions.

458
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 1: Yes, right.

459
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,919
Speaker 2: The one decision that I don't have the ability to

460
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 2: make because I'm born my nature is born corrupted, it

461
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 2: is born dead in sin is God. And so I

462
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 2: think that's sometimes where we start to get confused, is

463
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 2: we're talking about a condition of the of the will,

464
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,359
Speaker 2: a condition of the nature. And so I have a

465
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 2: lot of things. I choose a lot of things. I

466
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 2: like a lot of things. I love. The one thing

467
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 2: that I couldn't have done without his help was ever

468
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 2: choose him. Yeah, you're slave to sin, born again. You

469
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,680
Speaker 2: didn't have a decision to in your in your first birth,

470
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,200
Speaker 2: and you don't in your second to this, so born

471
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 2: again now slave to Christ.

472
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,560
Speaker 1: So you're free. You're free within your slavery to sin,

473
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 1: and you have a freedom in your slavery to Christ.

474
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,360
Speaker 2: Yep. And then Roman six comes in and says, because

475
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 2: you now have been made new in Jesus, you have

476
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,879
Speaker 2: died with him. You therefore will live with him. That

477
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,719
Speaker 2: transformation has taken place in your heart. It is a spiritual,

478
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 2: supernatural work. And so therefore the rest of your life

479
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,680
Speaker 2: you will love him, you will follow him, you will

480
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,399
Speaker 2: worship him, you will serve him all the way to

481
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 2: the end, and you'll be glorified forever by him.

482
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 1: Amen. So the reason some people might be thinking, why

483
00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 1: are they even talking about this? You know, why are

484
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 1: they talking about this this thing? But the reason is

485
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 1: what we're getting to is now this affects the way

486
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 1: you preached. Now, so now you're changed by these doctrines.

487
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:11,680
Speaker 1: And what you're reading in the Bible not something you

488
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 1: decided or you discovered, but it's something you read and

489
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,200
Speaker 1: believing that the Bible is true. You thought, I'm doing

490
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 1: this wrong, that salvation comes a different way than I

491
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 1: thought in the attractional way. Instead, it happens through the word,

492
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 1: so that affects directly affects the way you start preaching.

493
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 1: So now tell me what happens from the pulpit now

494
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 1: that this change has happened to you.

495
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, you've referred to what's often called, you know, the

496
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:42,119
Speaker 2: means of grace, the idea that God's primary means for

497
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 2: doing that work in the heart is the heralding, the krudzo,

498
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,200
Speaker 2: you know, of the scriptures, which is really a unique

499
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 2: act when you go back and study it. It's this

500
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,360
Speaker 2: idea where the profits of the Old Testament you get

501
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 2: to the New Covenant, and it's this new birth of preaching,

502
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 2: which kind of is a heralding, a proclamation of God's word.

503
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 2: I always picture it like imagine that we're in a

504
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 2: fish bowl, and I don't want to go geek out

505
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:06,639
Speaker 2: on Francis Shaefer, but like imagine that we're in a

506
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 2: fish bowl and we're just little fish women to here,

507
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 2: we're creatures. Right, There's no way that a fish is

508
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:14,920
Speaker 2: ever going to understand what's outside of the fish bowl.

509
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 2: He's not going to understand what a man is a

510
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,400
Speaker 2: woman is, and certainly not all the things we're doing.

511
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 2: The only way that something that is that finite can

512
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 2: never understand the infinite is if we drop that truth

513
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 2: down into the bowl and he's able to then at

514
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 2: his level, you know, understand it. So what God did

515
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,360
Speaker 2: and then scriptures progressive revelation is from the very beginning,

516
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:39,159
Speaker 2: He's dropped into the fish bowl enough truth for us

517
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 2: to be able to know him. Yeah, and that's why

518
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 2: all the authority is in the book, all the authorities

519
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 2: in the word. That is the means that he's going

520
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 2: to use. It's like the Holy Spirit grabs the Bible

521
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 2: and he's going to use that to transform hearts. And

522
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,199
Speaker 2: so as far as a practical thing, it changes the

523
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,440
Speaker 2: way you preach because I'm not sitting there every week

524
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 2: when I'm doing my study and going all right, you know,

525
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 2: what are the people really interested in this week? You

526
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 2: know what are they gonna be excited about? Now? I'm

527
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 2: gonna go over, you know, and I'm gonna I'm not

528
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 2: gonna use any names. I almost use a name. I'm

529
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 2: gonna go over and then and then and then grab

530
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,920
Speaker 2: a Bible verse that kind of rhymes with that feels good.

531
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 2: A lot of maybe Old Testament narrative usually you know.

532
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 2: And then what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna spin

533
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 2: it and throw a maxim at him, which is like,

534
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,479
Speaker 2: you know, if you always go, he'll always come. If

535
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 2: you're always up, then you're gonna be down. And then

536
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 2: they're gonna walk away. They're gonna be pumped. It's called anthropocentric, right,

537
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 2: They're gonna be pumped in their human power based on

538
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 2: what they heard. So that's just self help Oprah Winfrey stuff.

539
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 2: Instead of doing that, all I have to do is

540
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 2: take the book that he dropped into the fish bowl

541
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:46,880
Speaker 2: and then just simply open it up and start preaching

542
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 2: through it chapter by chapter, paragraph by paragraph, verse by verse,

543
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,879
Speaker 2: understanding what we call the authorial intent, what to the

544
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:58,359
Speaker 2: original author as superintended or inspired by the Holy Spirit

545
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 2: me when he wrote it. How can I bring people

546
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,120
Speaker 2: up to that theological principle and then apply it into

547
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 2: their lives with passion and vigor what Lloyd Jones called,

548
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 2: you know, logic on fire. And when we do that,

549
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 2: we have promises all throughout scripture which tell us he

550
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,919
Speaker 2: will use his word, it will not return void. And

551
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 2: so that's how it changes preaching. The power is not

552
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,159
Speaker 2: in the preacher per se, it's in the creator of

553
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 2: the universe, who's then speaking through him.

554
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 1: Yeah. So what you're described, and we've said this several

555
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 1: times on this show, it's called expositional preaching yep. And

556
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 1: the previous preaching is called topical. Basically that there would

557
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 1: be a decent way to preach topically textually, but most

558
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 1: of the time what you'll see in a a I'll

559
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 1: bring up a new term, seeker sensitive. Can you give

560
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: a quick definition the seeker sensitive before you?

561
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 2: I would go back to what we talked about with

562
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 2: attractional and that put those probably together. That's maybe a

563
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 2: nicer term. You know. The idea is instead of being

564
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 2: you know, saint focused, we're gonna we're gonna make Sunday

565
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 2: mornings more more sensitive to the outsider. So I think

566
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 2: it's a fair term.

567
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: Yeah. So you you are pretty you're very adamant and

568
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 1: and anything that has to do with the church. The

569
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 1: most sensitive thing you are is the most adamant thing

570
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 1: that you speak on is preaching in this way. Stop

571
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 1: preaching topically, Stop preaching about marriage and finance and singleness

572
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 1: and grief, and use the word the Bible itself preached

573
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 1: through that, and the that will have implications that speak

574
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 1: to marriage and speak to singleness and finance and grief

575
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 1: and all those things.

576
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,959
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and there can be times, as you well know

577
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 2: where we're going. Okay, there's a huge number of people

578
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 2: in the body that are struggle and was set issue

579
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 2: right if it's grief? And so another wrong with doing

580
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 2: a proper study on grief, but you mentioned it it

581
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 2: would be a topical textual where I still want to

582
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 2: make sure that I've mind the scriptures and I'm saying

583
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 2: what God says about the topic. So I think ext

584
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 2: to Jesus an exposition reason in these big words is

585
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 2: really the opposite of what's often called is to Jesus.

586
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 2: You know this idea where you go over and you

587
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 2: take a topic and you try to find a verse

588
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 2: that matches it and then get everyone ignited and fired

589
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 2: up by that. So we want to make sure we're

590
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 2: minding out of God's word what it is he says

591
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 2: about that topic.

592
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's a great point because most people will say,

593
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 1: my pastor preaches out of the Bible, and I say, well,

594
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: of course he does, or he wouldn't be a Christian.

595
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: But how is he preaching out of the Bible. It

596
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 1: is the question. And so I don't want in my

597
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 1: job here is not to tell people what church to

598
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 1: go to. Instead, I want to get people to think,

599
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 1: what is a healthy church? How do I know that?

600
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 1: And you're gonna argue and I would too. It starts

601
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 1: from the pulpit, It starts from the preaching itself. You

602
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 1: can't always get it from the building or the way

603
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 1: that the lights look or the way that the music sounds,

604
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 1: but you can always tell immediately from the preaching.

605
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 2: I would even say, we want to be careful about

606
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 2: letting all that other stuff be the driver. I think

607
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 2: a lot of times, you know, big lights and great

608
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 2: music gets a bad rap, right, there's nothing that ever says.

609
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 2: So let's say you have a healthy church. You got

610
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 2: the pulpit that's a precing exposition preaching God's word, and

611
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 2: then you have the praise time that is reverential. Yes,

612
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 2: is doctrinally sound. The elements of prayer are there, the

613
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 2: elements of scripture reading, the elements of the ordinances are

614
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 2: being taken a beautiful symbolic description and reminder of what

615
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 2: Jesus did for us on the crossing communion. For example,

616
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 2: people are being baptized and there's a church membership or

617
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 2: church discipline, and you actually are you have a pure

618
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 2: bride of Christ where you're not just sitting around and

619
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 2: anything happened. Let's say all that. Then you can have

620
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 2: great music, you can have great lights. There's no reason

621
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 2: I think it's a false dichotomy that we should go. Okay, exalting, exposition, equipping,

622
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 2: and evangelizing are all happening, but now we just want

623
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 2: to paint the walls brown and we want to have

624
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 2: esthetically displeasing children's ministries. Let's actually go back and do

625
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 2: music from eight hundred years ago. In fact, let's not

626
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 2: even let's make it smell. It's almost like we're trying

627
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 2: to You need to have truth first, okay, But if

628
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 2: you have truth, then it's okay to have all the

629
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 2: other stuff growth and vigor and zeal and passion and excitement.

630
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 2: In fact, I'd almost argue that if you have truth,

631
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 2: those other things will come naturally. Where you get into danger,

632
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 2: my brother, is that I think any attractional or secret

633
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 2: sensitive it. We flip them and we go after growth,

634
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 2: and then you have to kind of fight through all

635
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 2: the masking to get to truth. That's the danger. Let

636
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 2: the truth drive the growth, but don't ever get to

637
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 2: the place where growth is what you're focused on and

638
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 2: you've ignored the truth. And if you do that, you're

639
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 2: in trouble.

640
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 1: So when you think about businesses that are selling a lot,

641
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 1: if you're into business e commerce or commerce platforms, when

642
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: you think about a company that's doing it really well,

643
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 1: like All Birds or Skims, I know, you think about

644
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 1: the great product, the cool brand, and all the marketing

645
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. But what's often overlooked is the

646
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 1: secret that's actually the business behind the business, making all

647
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 1: the selling and for the shoppers buying simple. For millions

648
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: of businesses, that is Shopify, including gee dot com. We've

649
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,479
Speaker 1: been using Shopify for a long long time now, and

650
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 1: it allows us to have creative control over our website

651
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 1: and the way the EEE dot com looks and all

652
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 1: the EEE apparel. But when it comes to the checkout

653
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 1: and the selling, when someone wants to go add something

654
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 1: to the cart and check out, all that mechanism is

655
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 1: brought to us by Shopify. It's a great company and

656
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 1: that's why so many other companies use it all across

657
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 1: the world. If you're into e commerce or commerce if

658
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 1: you have a store or an online business, whether you're

659
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:10,959
Speaker 1: wanting to grow that from where it is or start

660
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 1: it from scratch. You got to know the businesses that

661
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 1: grow grow with Shopify. So upgrade your business and get

662
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 1: the same checkout as ge dot com. Sign up for

663
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,359
Speaker 1: you're one dollar per month trial period at shopify dot

664
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 1: com slash granger all lowercase got a shopify dot com

665
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:29,280
Speaker 1: slash granger to upgrade your selling today shopify dot com

666
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 1: slash granger. If you want to get a hold of

667
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 1: me for any reason, go to cameo dot com slash

668
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: granger Smith. It's a great way to get someone a

669
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 1: gift that you don't know what to get. It's a

670
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 1: video message from me. Basically, you message me and say, hey,

671
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 1: can you tell my brother happy birthday? Can you tell

672
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 1: my wife happy introversary? Or can you give me a

673
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 1: word of encouragement or maybe even a prayer? Go to

674
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 1: cameo dot com slash granger Smith. Fill that out and

675
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 1: it comes right to my phone. I read what you

676
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,359
Speaker 1: want me to say. I could add libit. I take

677
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 1: my phone, put it on selfie mo, shoot a quick

678
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 1: video saying hey, Bob. Cindy wanted me to tell you

679
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,320
Speaker 1: happy anniversary, and you know, whatever you woman to say,

680
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 1: and then I'll send you that video message and then

681
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,879
Speaker 1: you give it to Cindy's. It's a great little tool.

682
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:16,399
Speaker 1: I've been using this for a long time. Cameo dot

683
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 1: com slash Granger Smith. Have you heard about EEE Fast yet?

684
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: I need to tell you. It's May ninth and tenth

685
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 1: at the EEE Farm. We're gonna have a truck show,

686
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 1: We're gonna have a mud bog, lots of good food,

687
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 1: lots of people from YEE Nation will be there, and

688
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:36,919
Speaker 1: I'm even gonna do some kind of live podcast. Don't

689
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 1: know how that's gonna look yet, but we're gonna do

690
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 1: a live audience, live podcast, answer questions, gonna have Amber there,

691
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,279
Speaker 1: most of my team and my brothers will all be there.

692
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 1: And you know, we'll be at the EEE Farm, so

693
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 1: you get to come. It's open to the public completely

694
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:51,839
Speaker 1: and you get to come and hang out with us

695
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 1: at the EEE Farm. I think it's gonna be so

696
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 1: much fun. And here's the surprise. Saturday night, May the tenth,

697
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:02,320
Speaker 1: I'm actually playing a concert, my full band, all the crew,

698
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: It will be the only concert we do the entire year,

699
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:08,359
Speaker 1: So you don't want to miss this. I mean, this

700
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 1: is gonna be If you're part of EU Nation or

701
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 1: you want to be part of EU Nation, you got

702
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 1: to check this out. You go to eee fest dot

703
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 1: com for all your info. I'm looking at it right now.

704
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:21,359
Speaker 1: If you're wondering the price for the full weekend, it's

705
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 1: seventy nine bucks for a ticket. If you just want

706
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 1: to go to one day, like a single pass on Friday,

707
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 1: it's thirty nine bucks, and a single pass on Saturday

708
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 1: is only fifty nine bucks. So if you want to

709
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,320
Speaker 1: go to this concert fifty nine bucks. Kids are cheaper

710
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:39,360
Speaker 1: than that. And then there's all kind of like VIP

711
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 1: packages ways to get your truck in there. You could

712
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 1: sit on your tailgate of your own truck. It's going

713
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,280
Speaker 1: to be a really, really good time. I'm so excited

714
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 1: about this once again. Eee Fest coming May ninth and tenth.

715
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,879
Speaker 1: Go to ee dot com or eee fest dot com

716
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 1: for more details. At you're in trouble, So how could

717
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 1: someone that walks into their church this coming Sunday, how

718
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 1: could they tell if this is a proper exposition or

719
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 1: textual topic.

720
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 2: I think the simple litmus would be how often is

721
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 2: your head and your pastor's head like like down in

722
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 2: the text? Okay, so, and that's a really simple, simple litmus.

723
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 2: I mean, just just think about it. It doesn't mean

724
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 2: he can't come up and he can't be engaging, and

725
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 2: he can't illustrate, and he can't get you excited about

726
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 2: the word. That's all style. Don't worry about style. Style

727
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 2: comes and goes. Personality of preachers vary. But the point is,

728
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 2: by the time you leave where you introduced to a text,

729
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 2: did you, with everyone in that in that congregation to

730
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 2: your right and left examine the text. Were you brought

731
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 2: to a place where you further understand the theological principle

732
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 2: of that text, which is timeless It was there when

733
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,399
Speaker 2: Paul wrote it and it's there today. And then did

734
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 2: he help you apply that to where when you walk

735
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 2: out the door, you go, you know what, I actually

736
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 2: know more about this book than I did when I

737
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 2: came in. That would be my litmus. How often is

738
00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 2: your head in the text.

739
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 1: That's good. Remember flippings one. Paul's talking about how there

740
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 1: are different ways to preach wrong ways there's coming from

741
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 1: ways of greed, and and then there's there's the way

742
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 1: that comes from love. And I know you, yeah, I

743
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 1: know you personally, and I know that you do this

744
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 1: out of love. You preach this way, not not out

745
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 1: of selfish conceit or any kind of ambition for yourself.

746
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, you would make the argument that if

747
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 1: you were doing that, you would do it the opposite.

748
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:33,239
Speaker 1: You do it the old way because it's a lot

749
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 1: easier to stand up there and make a show than

750
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 1: it is to, like you said, have your nose in

751
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,439
Speaker 1: the text. But I know that you do this for love.

752
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: And the reason I even bring that up, it's because

753
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,399
Speaker 1: sometimes these conversations can start to sound like, oh, these

754
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 1: guys just think they got it all figured out. You know,

755
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 1: they're telling us they're better their their church. Okay, mission

756
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:54,800
Speaker 1: Bible is better than the other churches. Is that what

757
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 1: you're saying? And I know personally, no, brother, you're doing

758
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 1: this out of love because you know that the Bible

759
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 1: says this is the way that people are going to

760
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 1: grow up in the Lord. This is how they're going

761
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 1: to know who God is. Sometimes you'll see churches that

762
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 1: will sound like this. They will they will come across

763
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:18,319
Speaker 1: this way, and they'll say they'll they might even open

764
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,800
Speaker 1: their sermon with open your bibles to First Corinthians five.

765
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 1: I'm going to read from verse four and we're going

766
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 1: to read down to verse ten, and you'll think, okay, exposition.

767
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,399
Speaker 1: They read it down and then they give a quick

768
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 1: explanation and then they go off and they start yelling

769
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 1: at you know, at everyone. Sure, and every week it's

770
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:42,439
Speaker 1: the same thing. They're not. That's not growing in any way,

771
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 1: that's not that's not moving through the Bible at any

772
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 1: routine fashion. That is just using the Bible as a

773
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 1: starting point and then and then and then telling people

774
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 1: that they're they're not good enough for it.

775
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 2: I think those chricatures get built on all sides, right,

776
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,399
Speaker 2: And I do think it's important to remember that if

777
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 2: you're teaching the Bible, I mean, you brought it up

778
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:08,440
Speaker 2: like it would be very easy to hear. Even a

779
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 2: podcast like this, and I get on and talk preaching

780
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 2: and I'm kind of intense. I come across intense. I'm

781
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 2: a polarizing person. I'm sorry, I'm not really like that.

782
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:20,360
Speaker 2: Ask my wife. But it's interesting that you, as a preacher,

783
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,799
Speaker 2: I think any true preacher of God's word, who's ever

784
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 2: had to get up and know that he's speaking fearfully

785
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,320
Speaker 2: on behalf of the living God. Yes, is going to

786
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 2: number one, do that only after he spent a ton

787
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 2: of time on his knees. Number two with moist eyes.

788
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:39,839
Speaker 2: And so you can tell when a guy loves you

789
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 2: because you can almost hear the quiver in his voice,

790
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:45,720
Speaker 2: You can almost sense the tears in his eyes saying

791
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 2: this is not just information, this is transformation. This is

792
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 2: stuff that I am begging the Lord to surgically implant

793
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 2: inside your heart.

794
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:54,879
Speaker 1: Right.

795
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:57,920
Speaker 2: But I think one of the characters here sometimes is

796
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 2: that guys who who love God's word and or you know,

797
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 2: un quote reformed or whatever, is that they are just

798
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,279
Speaker 2: going to blast everybody. But what we forget is that

799
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 2: if we're teaching through God's word, God's the one who

800
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 2: also talks about mercy. God's the one who talks about

801
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 2: love and kindness and meekness and gentleness and self control.

802
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 2: God's the one who ministers. You came and preached here,

803
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 2: What did you preach? You've preached twice, and both times

804
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 2: you come bearing a message of number one. Second time

805
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 2: was the gospel. The first time was what how the

806
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 2: Lord meets us in our grief and meets us in

807
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 2: our sorrow? And so you know, hard preaching creates soft hearts.

808
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,240
Speaker 2: But that's not because the preaching is always about hard things.

809
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 2: A lot of times it's about very personal needs that

810
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 2: we have as believers.

811
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. Amen, So let's let's drop you back into the

812
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:47,400
Speaker 1: story now that we've kind of set this, set the

813
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:51,760
Speaker 1: ground here, you you come back. You know, the worship

814
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:55,280
Speaker 1: teams fired, there's some you know, hundreds of people have left.

815
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 1: And now you're preaching this way now, you probably don't

816
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 1: see immediate change. It's not like you preached the first

817
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 1: day and you preached the text and everyone thought, wow,

818
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 1: pastor Tony, that now everything's different, This is so much better.

819
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 1: If we're probably more gradual than that, is that right? Yeah?

820
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 2: One of the challenges I think when we're young is

821
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:16,800
Speaker 2: we want to make changes quick.

822
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 1: Right.

823
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 2: It's like, this is us now, And I think one

824
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 2: of the blessings is the Lord had had parked us

825
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 2: at this rescue mission. So when we planted the church,

826
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 2: we were renting and we're at this rescue mission and

827
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:32,719
Speaker 2: so we've got broken people. Man. I'm talking like like

828
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 2: literally the night before they're getting pulled by the cops,

829
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 2: you know, out of a hotel room, you know, tripping

830
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 2: on something. Then they're coming into church the next morning.

831
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 2: And the Lord and his grace kept us there for

832
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 2: seven years and sore as we're developing theologically. He's teaching

833
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 2: us how to how to love and develop ministry methodologically.

834
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 2: But we had to constantly be doing it with a

835
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 2: real sense of the brokenness around us. And I think

836
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 2: that was the Lord's kindness to kind of go, hey,

837
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 2: you have to really slow down and make sure that

838
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,880
Speaker 2: wherever you go you're able to take a group with

839
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 2: you instead of kind of banging your chest. And I mean,

840
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 2: but there were some crazy sundays, man, I'm telling you.

841
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:14,719
Speaker 2: We had, like I meant, a few times where I'd

842
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:16,400
Speaker 2: be preaching something like we talked about the doctors of

843
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:19,319
Speaker 2: Grace when you tell people, hey, right now you're all

844
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:22,759
Speaker 2: on your way to Hell and and and and the

845
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 2: Lord is your only solution. I would have guys with

846
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:28,719
Speaker 2: like I'm talking like like like like inked up with

847
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 2: you know, teardrops, like they'd just done something crazy in

848
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:33,879
Speaker 2: the in the pen the night before, and they'd come

849
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:36,479
Speaker 2: like over the seats toward me like they were coming

850
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:38,920
Speaker 2: to get me. Uh, and we had security guys who

851
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 2: would grab them, you know, and what so Yeah, absolutely

852
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 2: absolutely it was like you know the old stories of Whitfield. Yes, yeah,

853
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 2: your bottles are flying.

854
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 1: Yeah.

855
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 2: It was at least a couple of times. I mean

856
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 2: one of our one of our elders got headbutted squirt

857
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 2: square in the nose and the nose started bleeding. And

858
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,400
Speaker 2: I mean it was a full on rescue mission environment.

859
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,239
Speaker 2: But now when I look back at all the Lord's done,

860
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:01,239
Speaker 2: when we got the new property and the church grow,

861
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,800
Speaker 2: you grew, I'm always like, Lord, you did that because

862
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,279
Speaker 2: you wanted to prune, and you wanted to sanctify, and

863
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 2: you wanted to bring us low so that we would

864
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 2: always remember that it was you and not us.

865
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 1: I didn't know that.

866
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:18,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, I got more stories sometime. You and I got

867
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:18,800
Speaker 2: to talk.

868
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 1: Man guys coming over the chairs. Yeah.

869
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:23,799
Speaker 2: Yeah. One time there was a couple in the front

870
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 2: row and they're like like getting it on, I'm making

871
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 2: out the whole thing, And so I just called him out.

872
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,919
Speaker 2: I said, I said, hey, I talked to the lady.

873
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 2: I said, hey, brother, give me a second and I said,

874
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 2: if this is what he's willing to do to you

875
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 2: in front of all these people possessing you like this,

876
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 2: what does that say about his character? And do you

877
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 2: think he's really going to his life down in love

878
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 2: for you for the next fifty years and the whole

879
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 2: place is just like hur you know, And he was

880
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:49,759
Speaker 2: so mad. I really thought he was. I thought he

881
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 2: was coming. What year was this? What year is that

882
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:55,840
Speaker 2: would have been? You can ask Costi he was around

883
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 2: still twenty sixteen seventeen.

884
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 1: Was Costi saved in your church? Yeah? He was.

885
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 2: His famous story about the John five sermon in the

886
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:10,319
Speaker 2: JMAC commentary and all that. That would have been two

887
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:14,480
Speaker 2: thousand and thirteen ish.

888
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 1: So I don't know Costy personally. By the way, we

889
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 1: have DMed a few times, but we're talking everybody. We're

890
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 1: talking about Costy hen who's the nephew of the antithesis

891
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 1: of what we're more talking about.

892
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:28,360
Speaker 2: And it's crazy, right.

893
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 1: All this is crazy stuff. What would you say to

894
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:39,280
Speaker 1: somebody a family that is in that Seeker church right now?

895
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 1: You know the pastors, he loves them, and he's sincere,

896
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 1: and he loves the Lord. We're not saying that any

897
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 1: of those things are wrong, But what would you say,

898
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 1: How important is it for them if they're comfortable that

899
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 1: children are in a good little ministry, they love their

900
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 1: small group, it's convenient drive from their house.

901
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:02,279
Speaker 2: Is it that big a deal? Yeah, that's a Paul

902
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 2: Washer quote, right. Don't find the church nearest your house,

903
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:08,839
Speaker 2: try to find the church nearest the Bible. So philosophically, yes,

904
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 2: it is a big deal. But like I have friends

905
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 2: in all different sizes and different camps of the church,

906
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:17,279
Speaker 2: and the brothers that are great brothers, they love Jesus.

907
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 2: What I find most often is, even if there's a difference,

908
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:24,840
Speaker 2: subtle differences and ecclesiology, most of these guys love the Lord,

909
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 2: and they are they are begging the Lord for souls,

910
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:30,400
Speaker 2: and they are trying to lead the church in a

911
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:32,520
Speaker 2: way that honors Him. And so I think, by and large,

912
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 2: a lot of times we start having these conversations and

913
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 2: it almost looks like we're, you know, we're building.

914
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 1: A strong man because exactly.

915
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 2: But here here's where things get interesting, is that I

916
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 2: have to know to answer that as a father of

917
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 2: a home my theological triosh, which I'm sure that you

918
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 2: know at Southern you've heard a thousand times. But like

919
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 2: I have to know what tier of issue I'm dealing with.

920
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:54,759
Speaker 2: Am I dealing with like a first tier issue that

921
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 2: you know, little old orthodoxy? This is like outside the

922
00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 2: camp of Christianity. You know, are they not teaching the

923
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:01,760
Speaker 2: virgin or the you know, the inerran word of God

924
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 2: or the authority of scripture, Jesus perfect life, subsidiary death,

925
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 2: his resurrection. If that's happening, then I have to take

926
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 2: my family immediately. And I got a flee.

927
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 1: Yeah.

928
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 2: Then I get down into those second tier issues, which

929
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:17,399
Speaker 2: they are minor distinctives at different expressions of the church,

930
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:19,439
Speaker 2: right is it? You know, are they are they doing

931
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:21,880
Speaker 2: the tongues thing? Are they not? You know, what's their

932
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:25,359
Speaker 2: view of complementary and roles? And then you get down

933
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 2: into these issues of like eschatology and dating and those

934
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 2: are very very very tertiary issues. So what I would

935
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:36,319
Speaker 2: do is I'd work out number one, what level of

936
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:38,359
Speaker 2: issue are you looking at?

937
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:43,760
Speaker 1: Let me build a hypothetical for you. You want to do it. Okay,

938
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 1: this is a evangelical church. They love the Lord. And

939
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:51,360
Speaker 1: when I say that, I mean these are all the

940
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 1: all the first tier issues are checked Bible and errancy.

941
00:47:55,719 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 1: You're saved by grace, not by works. God has revealed

942
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 1: himself in three persons, and Jesus is the only way, okay,

943
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:07,840
Speaker 1: that these are. This is what they teach. This is

944
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 1: what they all believe. They are there when it when

945
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:15,120
Speaker 1: it comes to like fruits of our gifts of the spirit,

946
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 1: they're they're pretty loose. They don't talk about it too much.

947
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 1: They kind of you know, they keep it kind of quiet.

948
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:25,279
Speaker 1: Sure they they they do baptisms, you know, a couple

949
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 1: of times a month, and they make a big deal

950
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:32,799
Speaker 1: out of it. The the church is let's say, eight

951
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 1: hundred people, you know, and it's it smells good and

952
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 1: they have really good music. The pastors, there's many of them.

953
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 1: I don't know them all, but they're super nice, super

954
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 1: super nice guys. There are women pastors, you know that

955
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:48,319
Speaker 1: they get up there and they're usually the wives of

956
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:53,080
Speaker 1: the of the other pastors. And every week they preach

957
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:56,960
Speaker 1: a topical message and they're usually in a series. The

958
00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:00,800
Speaker 1: series they usually have catchy names that you would recognize,

959
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:04,440
Speaker 1: and they use videos to introduce the series. But they

960
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:06,759
Speaker 1: do use the Bible. The Bible does pop in and

961
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 1: out of these you know, they'll use some verses and

962
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:14,440
Speaker 1: they'll actually read, you know, sometimes larger sections ten fifteen verses,

963
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:19,239
Speaker 1: and I leave feeling really good. Is it important? Oh

964
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 1: and by the way, the kids ministry is amazing? Do

965
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 1: I need to leave this church?

966
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 2: I ask clarifying question, Yes, yes, all right, you're so poetic, man,

967
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 2: your creativity blows my mind. Just came up with that

968
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:33,480
Speaker 2: right now. It's almost like you're a songwriter. So what

969
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:37,239
Speaker 2: about membership and church discipline? If there's an issue? Am

970
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:40,000
Speaker 2: I protected by the elders as a wife who has

971
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:41,440
Speaker 2: a husband who hit me one night?

972
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 1: Or yeah, I definitely want to This is me talking,

973
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:48,640
Speaker 1: not the hypothetical. We need to talk about church discipline.

974
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 1: I would love to talk about that. But for me

975
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 1: at this church, I'm a member of the church because

976
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:59,319
Speaker 1: I've been going for many years and I signed I

977
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:02,359
Speaker 1: took a QR code and I signed up, and so yes,

978
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 1: I'm a member.

979
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:06,600
Speaker 2: Okay, but do they practice? Is there a way that

980
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 2: the elders may come and go you're outside of a

981
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:14,239
Speaker 2: Matthew eighteen rubric one he's five, there's sin happening? And

982
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 2: or or is it kind of just a free for all?

983
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:19,880
Speaker 1: No, you could you could just kind of sit in

984
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:22,920
Speaker 1: the back and come and go as you please, and

985
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:23,720
Speaker 1: that'd be my answer.

986
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 2: That's that's the part I think. I think the statement

987
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 2: of faith part up front. I think the nice pastors

988
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:33,799
Speaker 2: and all that, I think I'm fine with that. Where

989
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 2: things get interesting we use that big word ecclesiology again

990
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:39,439
Speaker 2: and again. Where things get interesting is if if I'm

991
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:41,399
Speaker 2: not clear how I got in, and I'm not clear

992
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:44,400
Speaker 2: how I get out, and I'm not clear who's going

993
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 2: to have oversight right one Peter chapter five, over my soul,

994
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 2: who's feeding me, who's leading me, but also who's protecting me?

995
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 2: Then I would have some some sincere concerns about whether

996
00:50:57,120 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 2: i'd want my family there. And I also give you

997
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 2: we're doing conjecture, so let me throw it at you

998
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 2: so you know. Amber comes to you tomorrow and says,

999
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:09,719
Speaker 2: you know, Hay Granger, I love you. It's been a

1000
00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:12,399
Speaker 2: great ride. But I'm thinking maybe this isn't the right

1001
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 2: thing for us now. Now, if you're at that church,

1002
00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 2: you're going, all right, sweetie. I'm pretty sure the Bible

1003
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:22,839
Speaker 2: says that we can't just you know, split, But if

1004
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:24,759
Speaker 2: you don't have elders who you're able to go to

1005
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 2: and you don't have some form of Matthew eighteen accountability structure,

1006
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 2: then there's really no one helping you or her in

1007
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:36,360
Speaker 2: that spiritual trial or sin. So I think that's where

1008
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:40,959
Speaker 2: people have to really really lock in and go. It's

1009
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 2: not just what I'm taught, it's also I always used

1010
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:45,959
Speaker 2: to use the illustration and membership class. I would say,

1011
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:48,799
Speaker 2: I want our church to be like in and Out,

1012
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:51,440
Speaker 2: which anybody on the West coast knows. You know, in

1013
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:53,200
Speaker 2: and out. The reason and now it's great is you

1014
00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:55,560
Speaker 2: always know what you're gonna get, so the food you're

1015
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:57,400
Speaker 2: gonna eat. But number two, you always know the tables

1016
00:51:57,440 --> 00:51:59,239
Speaker 2: are gonna be clean, like literally you get up ten

1017
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 2: seconds later, boom, and it's all white compared to McDonald's,

1018
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 2: it's all nasty usually, right. So the idea was, I

1019
00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 2: want to know what I'm being taught every Sunday, the

1020
00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:10,120
Speaker 2: Word of God's going to be. But I also want

1021
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:11,919
Speaker 2: to know that there's a group of men who are

1022
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:15,800
Speaker 2: protecting the ethic of this church so that there's purity

1023
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:19,440
Speaker 2: in the pews and that God forbid Galatians chapter six.

1024
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 2: Even if I you know, am caught in something I

1025
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:24,920
Speaker 2: want to restore another brethren doesn't look it unto myself,

1026
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 2: so that I too might not be tempted. And so

1027
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:30,680
Speaker 2: the Lord doesn't just want an informed church, he wants

1028
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:33,279
Speaker 2: a pure church. And so that would be one of

1029
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 2: my concerns in that particular hyperbole.

1030
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:40,840
Speaker 1: So church discipline that sounds very old fashioned and very scary.

1031
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 1: Can you walk through, just genuinely generally through Matthew eighteen,

1032
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:50,600
Speaker 1: the simple story of what Jesus is saying here and

1033
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:52,480
Speaker 1: where we get this idea from.

1034
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. The old word was, you know, censorial.

1035
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 2: You know that was the old censure. But all it

1036
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 2: is is saying Jesus lays down an acorn of truth

1037
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:04,839
Speaker 2: in Matthew eighteen, and then that that that oak tree

1038
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 2: blossoms in Pauline literature, where Paul writes in First Corinthian's

1039
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:10,440
Speaker 2: five and says, like, here's what this could look like.

1040
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:14,480
Speaker 2: Jesus was simply saying that there needs to be some

1041
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 2: way to deal with with ongoing sin that can corrupt

1042
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 2: the group. And so in Matthew eighteen he simply says, hey,

1043
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:25,360
Speaker 2: if there's a problem and we're all in this admonishment level,

1044
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:27,880
Speaker 2: all the time with people. You know, someone rubs me

1045
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:29,839
Speaker 2: the wrong way. I'm like, hey, man, you know, so

1046
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:33,480
Speaker 2: there's this one to one and then if they don't repent,

1047
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 2: or if that's not fixed, you go and you get

1048
00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:37,920
Speaker 2: two or three people and you bring them and now

1049
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:41,160
Speaker 2: you're confronted in a group like your small group or something.

1050
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:43,640
Speaker 2: And then if they don't repent it, there's no change,

1051
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:46,400
Speaker 2: and there's something that continues to happen. Then you go

1052
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:48,279
Speaker 2: to the church, you go to the eldership, and you

1053
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 2: bring them, and plausibly you get to the kind of

1054
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:54,880
Speaker 2: the pinnacle, which is you tell the whole church and

1055
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 2: you say, hey, such and such member is committed such

1056
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:00,520
Speaker 2: and such sin. It's ongoing habitual to the harm of

1057
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:03,560
Speaker 2: the body. And then we need to now all go

1058
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:07,960
Speaker 2: after them together, asking them to repent. You know, and

1059
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:09,759
Speaker 2: I hate to even use you guys an example, but

1060
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 2: I'm already on that road analogy. You know, everyone. I

1061
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:13,960
Speaker 2: feel bad doing it, but like everyone needs to go

1062
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:18,040
Speaker 2: after Amber. Yeah, and everyone in the church. Now what's

1063
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 2: happened is her social construct is pressuring in. And the

1064
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:25,520
Speaker 2: beauty of that is, if I'm truly saved, I've got

1065
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:28,480
Speaker 2: the Holy Spirit on the inside, who's convicting me. I've

1066
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 2: got my entire faith community on the outside, they're convicting me,

1067
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 2: and it's keeping the community of faith pure and right

1068
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:37,560
Speaker 2: sized if we don't have that. And this was my

1069
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:40,640
Speaker 2: experience before. I've been at churches that are like, hey, man,

1070
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:43,920
Speaker 2: there's no membership, you vote with your feet, that whole thing. Okay, fine,

1071
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:47,239
Speaker 2: But then if that happens and my wife walks away,

1072
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:50,200
Speaker 2: who's there to help us? Yeah, who's there to even

1073
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:51,040
Speaker 2: tell her she's wrong?

1074
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:58,000
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah. So the scenario is Ambers decides she wants

1075
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:00,360
Speaker 1: to get a boyfriend and she wants to leave. A

1076
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 1: sister from the church comes to her and says, hey, sister,

1077
00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:08,439
Speaker 1: you can't do this. You can't leave your husband. If

1078
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:13,000
Speaker 1: she says, you're right, I'm so sorry, then she's gained

1079
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 1: a sister. Jesus says, brother, but where you started with Amber?

1080
00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:18,080
Speaker 1: So I'm running down that road.

1081
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 2: Sure.

1082
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:21,520
Speaker 1: But if she says I'm sticking with the boyfriend thing,

1083
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:26,520
Speaker 1: then the sister brings another sister and they both come

1084
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:29,239
Speaker 1: to her and they say, hey, Amber, you can't do this.

1085
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:32,440
Speaker 1: She still says no. They take her to the elders,

1086
00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:38,480
Speaker 1: the leadership and Eventually, the idea is the elders in

1087
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 1: the church will say, you can no longer be here.

1088
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:45,880
Speaker 1: You cannot be a member of this church and be

1089
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:49,800
Speaker 1: an unrepentant sin. And they don't do that that Jesus

1090
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:53,000
Speaker 1: doesn't build that so that that person is left and

1091
00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:57,040
Speaker 1: ostracized and gone. That this is so that the person goes.

1092
00:55:57,400 --> 00:55:59,759
Speaker 1: I want back in the family. I don't like being

1093
00:55:59,840 --> 00:56:01,520
Speaker 1: out side of the family. I want to be back in.

1094
00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:04,440
Speaker 1: That's the whole idea. And so that they could be

1095
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:08,759
Speaker 1: repented and come back. That is what we call church discipline.

1096
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:12,840
Speaker 1: And what you're saying is that a church that doesn't

1097
00:56:13,239 --> 00:56:17,560
Speaker 1: have any kind of structure in their membership that's meaningful

1098
00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:19,880
Speaker 1: at all. You don't know who the church is, you

1099
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:21,680
Speaker 1: don't know who to bring the person to, and you

1100
00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:24,160
Speaker 1: don't know who to kick the person out of at all.

1101
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:28,640
Speaker 2: That's right, and it goes right back to where we started, right.

1102
00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:32,560
Speaker 2: If it's attractional and it's all unbelievers, you will inevitably

1103
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:36,920
Speaker 2: end up with an impure church. If the lordship of

1104
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 2: Christ is not established as paramount, If we're not constantly

1105
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:43,480
Speaker 2: teaching in such a way that it's pursuing holiness, and

1106
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:45,880
Speaker 2: even at times as hard as it sounds, having to

1107
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:51,359
Speaker 2: filter out those who were with us but not of us.

1108
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:55,120
Speaker 2: Eventually you just end up with an impure church.

1109
00:56:55,480 --> 00:56:57,160
Speaker 1: That's so good, And I'd love how you brought it

1110
00:56:57,200 --> 00:57:00,640
Speaker 1: back all the way around. And I know I'm interested

1111
00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:02,880
Speaker 1: to read these comments. Aren't you a meant to figure

1112
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:04,400
Speaker 1: out what people are going to say through this? But

1113
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:07,800
Speaker 1: I did have a friend one time in North Texas

1114
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:10,120
Speaker 1: and he said, Hey, I'm looking for a church. Can

1115
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:11,799
Speaker 1: you help me and my wife? And I said, yeah,

1116
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:14,600
Speaker 1: I actually have a friend there. Here's the church. It's

1117
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:18,520
Speaker 1: close to your house. And he said, great, thank you.

1118
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:20,920
Speaker 1: A few days later, I said, are you guys going

1119
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:23,680
Speaker 1: to go Sunday? And he said no. We looked it up.

1120
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:26,040
Speaker 1: My wife looked up their website and it says they

1121
00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:30,680
Speaker 1: practiced church discipline and she said, ooh, I don't like that.

1122
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:34,280
Speaker 1: And I said, brother, that's because they love their people.

1123
00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:39,440
Speaker 2: There you go, there you go, so yeah, that's love, right,

1124
00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:43,040
Speaker 2: that's the love, And that's the father, Hebrews tells us, right,

1125
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:46,840
Speaker 2: he chastises, he disciplines those that he loves. Every dad

1126
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:49,880
Speaker 2: knows that. You know, man, you and I both have

1127
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:53,400
Speaker 2: children you've got little ones right now. And when you're

1128
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:55,560
Speaker 2: a little guy, I mean he's fun. I mean he's fun.

1129
00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:59,960
Speaker 2: Maverick is Maverick right, he's climbing on things. Yeah, But listen,

1130
00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:03,000
Speaker 2: it's one thing to be childish. It's another thing to

1131
00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:05,120
Speaker 2: become rebellious or foolish.

1132
00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:05,360
Speaker 1: Right.

1133
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:08,040
Speaker 2: And you've now disobeyed what mommy and Daddy have told

1134
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:10,400
Speaker 2: you to do. And this is the circle of blessing

1135
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:12,320
Speaker 2: that God has given us. When we're in it, it's blessing.

1136
00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:14,800
Speaker 2: When we're outside of it, it's danger. And I don't

1137
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:16,640
Speaker 2: want you to be in danger. And so therefore I

1138
00:58:16,720 --> 00:58:19,040
Speaker 2: must discipline you in order that you learn, and I'm

1139
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:22,520
Speaker 2: restoring you now back into the circle of blessing. That's

1140
00:58:22,520 --> 00:58:25,280
Speaker 2: exactly what the Father does for us. He keeps us

1141
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:28,280
Speaker 2: inside the family again where we started. He puts us

1142
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:30,800
Speaker 2: in the family. He keeps us in the family all

1143
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:31,640
Speaker 2: the way to the end.

1144
00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:35,880
Speaker 1: Aymen, Well, brother, I love you, and we've talked all

1145
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:38,800
Speaker 1: about church. And I don't want to neglect that little

1146
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:40,320
Speaker 1: book you have right in front of you.

1147
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:42,720
Speaker 2: Amen. You told me to put it here is like

1148
00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:45,200
Speaker 2: a shameless good it's you didn't do that yourself.

1149
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:47,600
Speaker 1: I told you go get that book. The reason I

1150
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:50,080
Speaker 1: told you to get it it's what's it called the

1151
00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:51,160
Speaker 1: Little Red Book of Marriage?

1152
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:52,840
Speaker 2: Is that what it's called Little Red Book of Marriage?

1153
00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:54,480
Speaker 2: Complete with pictures?

1154
00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 1: So you sent me a this is a book that

1155
00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:00,560
Speaker 1: you and your wife Bree wrote, and you sent me

1156
00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:02,959
Speaker 1: the PDF before it was actually in a book form,

1157
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:05,400
Speaker 1: and Amber and I got to read it and we

1158
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:09,240
Speaker 1: loved it. It is so simple and so beautiful. It's

1159
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:14,360
Speaker 1: so practical for marriage. And I was going, I had

1160
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:16,160
Speaker 1: full intention of having it here on the desk with

1161
00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:18,800
Speaker 1: me for this podcast. And before you got on, I thought, oh,

1162
00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:20,400
Speaker 1: I got to go get my Little Red Book. I

1163
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:23,000
Speaker 1: I go to Amber and it's like, hey, I need

1164
00:59:23,080 --> 00:59:25,919
Speaker 1: I need the Woods Book. And she said I gave

1165
00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:28,640
Speaker 1: them all the way.

1166
00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:29,600
Speaker 2: That's cool way to go.

1167
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:33,160
Speaker 1: Yes, it's cool, but unfortunate. Now you're the one holding it.

1168
00:59:33,320 --> 00:59:35,400
Speaker 1: Can you tell me a little bit about why you'd

1169
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:37,040
Speaker 1: you and Bri wrote that book?

1170
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:40,600
Speaker 2: You know? Interesting that goes back to a buddy that

1171
00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:42,880
Speaker 2: came to us three years ago and said, hey, you know,

1172
00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:46,240
Speaker 2: in our kind of camp conservative aangelicalism, there's a lot

1173
00:59:46,240 --> 00:59:48,880
Speaker 2: of talk about marriage's not a lot of application for marriage.

1174
00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:51,880
Speaker 2: And so would you guys willing to do a podcast?

1175
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:54,720
Speaker 2: And so we started Date Night and that kind of

1176
00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:57,760
Speaker 2: had a trajectory of runway we never imagine because we

1177
00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:00,240
Speaker 2: didn't know what we're doing. My wife thought it was

1178
01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:02,160
Speaker 2: crazy because she doesn't like me on camera or anything,

1179
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:04,480
Speaker 2: and that that that just kind of the Lord had

1180
01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:08,280
Speaker 2: another plan as it grew, and then a buddy who's

1181
01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:11,360
Speaker 2: in publishing came and said, hey, these these podcast episodes

1182
01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:13,240
Speaker 2: are so good, could we put them into a book,

1183
01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:14,680
Speaker 2: And so that that was what this was. We took

1184
01:00:14,720 --> 01:00:19,840
Speaker 2: the top twelve kind of principles that are biblically foundational

1185
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:22,520
Speaker 2: to a healthy marriage and then just put them into

1186
01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:25,560
Speaker 2: book form and tried to make it edible because it's

1187
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:27,280
Speaker 2: like when you're when you're busy and you got two

1188
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:30,040
Speaker 2: little kids and you're barely two ships crossing in the

1189
01:00:30,120 --> 01:00:32,800
Speaker 2: night as a young couple, it's hard to read a lot.

1190
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:35,080
Speaker 1: So I think you did it great and you're holding it,

1191
01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:38,040
Speaker 1: but it's it's easy to read. It's thin, you know,

1192
01:00:38,080 --> 01:00:40,680
Speaker 1: it's not it's not a mountain of a read. It's

1193
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:44,600
Speaker 1: very practical. Anybody could read it at any level. And

1194
01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:47,400
Speaker 1: the podcast you're referring to Date Night with the Woods.

1195
01:00:47,440 --> 01:00:50,080
Speaker 1: Is that what it's called? Yeah, yeah, you guys have

1196
01:00:50,120 --> 01:00:53,800
Speaker 1: been going to be so it is a it's a

1197
01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:56,919
Speaker 1: fantastic podcast. So, so people want to know more about you,

1198
01:00:56,960 --> 01:00:59,960
Speaker 1: go to that or you could see you're preaching at

1199
01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:04,080
Speaker 1: Mission Bible Church in Coasta Mesa, California, which is incredible.

1200
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:07,320
Speaker 1: My only the only downside is the three services. Man.

1201
01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:09,480
Speaker 1: You just got a sweat and sweat and sweat to

1202
01:01:09,520 --> 01:01:09,880
Speaker 1: do that.

1203
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:12,680
Speaker 2: For the Lord.

1204
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:17,880
Speaker 1: Well, brother, I love you and you are so busy

1205
01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:21,720
Speaker 1: and I just it's a it's an honor that you

1206
01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:23,880
Speaker 1: were able to take this time to be on this podcast.

1207
01:01:23,920 --> 01:01:24,240
Speaker 1: Thank you.

1208
01:01:24,880 --> 01:01:27,120
Speaker 2: I love you too. Thanks for your ministry. Brother, It's

1209
01:01:27,120 --> 01:01:28,320
Speaker 2: fun to watch you change the world.

1210
01:01:28,520 --> 01:01:32,240
Speaker 1: Appreciate it. Thanks for joining me on the Grangersmith podcast.

1211
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:34,760
Speaker 1: I appreciate all of you guys. You could help me

1212
01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:38,400
Speaker 1: out by rating this podcast on iTunes. If you're on YouTube,

1213
01:01:38,640 --> 01:01:41,880
Speaker 1: subscribe to this channel, hit that little like button and

1214
01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:45,720
Speaker 1: notification spell so that you never miss anytime I upload

1215
01:01:46,040 --> 01:01:46,640
Speaker 1: a video.

1216
01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:47,760
Speaker 2: Yi