WEBVTT - Solving Solar’s Biggest Problem 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:15.796 Pushkin. 0:00:21.316 --> 0:00:24.396 Today's show is a good show, and I can give 0:00:24.436 --> 0:00:28.276 you several reasons why. One, it's a show about the 0:00:28.396 --> 0:00:33.436 energy transition, so we got the high stakes of climate change. Two, 0:00:33.796 --> 0:00:38.116 it's more specifically about long duration energy storage, which may 0:00:38.156 --> 0:00:41.876 be the key problem to solve in climate change now 0:00:41.916 --> 0:00:45.716 that solar power is so cheap but also so intermittent, 0:00:45.916 --> 0:00:49.276 the Sun's not always out, you got to store the energy. Three, 0:00:50.036 --> 0:00:54.436 the story has some very clever, fun technical insights. Four 0:00:54.596 --> 0:00:58.716 we get some real moments of harrowing drama. And finally, five, 0:00:59.276 --> 0:01:04.436 perhaps most surprising, today's show includes a defense of fighting 0:01:04.996 --> 0:01:13.756 in hockey. I'm Jacob Goldstein, and this is what's your problem. 0:01:13.956 --> 0:01:16.876 My guest today is Curtis van Wallingham. He is the 0:01:16.916 --> 0:01:19.916 co founder and CEO of a company called the hygro Store. 0:01:20.756 --> 0:01:24.636 Curtis's problem is this, how can you store energy by 0:01:24.676 --> 0:01:28.836 compressing air in giant underground caverns, and how can you 0:01:28.876 --> 0:01:32.636 do it efficiently almost anywhere in the world. The idea 0:01:32.676 --> 0:01:35.756 of compressed air storage has been around for a long time, 0:01:36.036 --> 0:01:39.236 but it's had some fundamental problems that have limited its use. 0:01:39.796 --> 0:01:42.156 As you'll hear, Curtis thinks he and his colleagues have 0:01:42.236 --> 0:01:46.076 solved those problems. Since co founding the company fifteen years ago, 0:01:46.436 --> 0:01:50.036 Hydrostore has built a fully functioning plant and has recently 0:01:50.116 --> 0:01:54.476 signed multiple billion dollar contracts to build facilities around the world. 0:01:55.236 --> 0:01:57.676 Curtis told me he got interested in compressed air back 0:01:57.716 --> 0:01:59.716 in two thousand and eight when he had kind of 0:01:59.756 --> 0:02:02.996 a weird problem. He was working at a power plant 0:02:03.036 --> 0:02:06.676 that was generating more energy than anyone could use. 0:02:07.476 --> 0:02:10.196 So I was the head of planning a nuclear plant. 0:02:10.436 --> 0:02:13.316 I think it's the world's second largest single site nuclear 0:02:13.316 --> 0:02:18.516 plant in Ontario, called Bruce Power. And because we have 0:02:18.596 --> 0:02:21.676 so much hydro and nuclear in Ontario, when we started 0:02:21.676 --> 0:02:23.916 adding wind and solar, we started to see we had 0:02:23.916 --> 0:02:26.636 too much power. We couldn't export it, and so we 0:02:26.676 --> 0:02:29.476 would have to shed power, which for a nuclear plant 0:02:29.476 --> 0:02:32.956 it means essentially dumping steam into the Great Lakes. But 0:02:32.996 --> 0:02:35.796 it required a lot of manual labor, moving valves and 0:02:35.836 --> 0:02:37.876 doing stuff that it wasn't designed to do. So it 0:02:37.916 --> 0:02:39.396 was driving up maintenance costs. 0:02:39.636 --> 0:02:43.436 And also it's a bummer, right, Like you're generating you 0:02:43.476 --> 0:02:45.556 want to make energy, you don't want to dump steam 0:02:45.596 --> 0:02:47.596 into a lake exactly. 0:02:47.836 --> 0:02:50.076 And so then I tried to build a pump hydro 0:02:50.156 --> 0:02:52.756 plant because back there, this is two thousand and eight, 0:02:53.156 --> 0:02:56.556 the only real commonplace to store power was through pump 0:02:56.596 --> 0:02:59.516 tydro So I tried to find a site and it 0:02:59.596 --> 0:03:02.516 was just impossible to see how you could find a site, 0:03:02.596 --> 0:03:05.716 get permits and build something anywhere near a timeframe. 0:03:06.036 --> 0:03:09.876 And just to be clear, sorry, but pumped hydro is 0:03:09.876 --> 0:03:13.236 is sort of the classic kind of long duration energy storage, 0:03:13.276 --> 0:03:15.996 right where you pump water essentially up a hill from 0:03:16.036 --> 0:03:18.036 some lower level to some higher level when you have 0:03:18.076 --> 0:03:20.236 the power, and then when you when you want to 0:03:20.316 --> 0:03:22.676 discharge the battery, you just let it flow downhill and 0:03:23.076 --> 0:03:24.356 spin a turbine. 0:03:23.956 --> 0:03:27.476 More or less right exactly, any hydro electric dam, just 0:03:27.676 --> 0:03:30.356 stop the dam from producing and start pumping water back 0:03:30.396 --> 0:03:33.596 up to the top reservoir. And so tried to do 0:03:33.636 --> 0:03:36.196 that and realized there was no possible way of doing it. 0:03:36.236 --> 0:03:38.116 So I had a team of five or six people 0:03:38.156 --> 0:03:40.036 at the time, and I asked them to research is 0:03:40.076 --> 0:03:42.556 there other ways of storing power? And that's when I 0:03:42.596 --> 0:03:45.796 came across my co founder Cam who had this idea 0:03:45.916 --> 0:03:49.036 and it's essentially the opposite of pumped hydro. Put air 0:03:49.236 --> 0:03:52.636 underwater and get the buoyancy. So instead of lifting water 0:03:52.716 --> 0:03:55.596 and air, why don't you sink air underwater and get 0:03:55.636 --> 0:03:58.916 the buoyancy. And you know, as an engineer, it was 0:03:59.036 --> 0:04:01.356 kind of intriguing to me. So I thought about it, 0:04:01.436 --> 0:04:04.196 ransom numbers and you know, lo and behold, they said, hey, 0:04:04.236 --> 0:04:07.956 this is compact. It can be easier to site, has 0:04:07.996 --> 0:04:10.836 all the advantages of pump tydro much easier to permit. 0:04:11.396 --> 0:04:13.876 So took the plunge, quit my job, and threw some 0:04:13.916 --> 0:04:16.516 money in and fifteen years later here we are. 0:04:17.476 --> 0:04:21.236 So your co founder's idea, it was a variation on 0:04:21.356 --> 0:04:25.556 this old idea of compressed air. Right, when you have 0:04:25.636 --> 0:04:29.356 more energy than you need, use it to compress air underground, 0:04:29.396 --> 0:04:31.676 and then when you need the energy, sort of blow 0:04:31.716 --> 0:04:34.196 the air back up and use that to generate energy. Right, 0:04:34.276 --> 0:04:36.596 that's the basic idea. It's an old idea, and in 0:04:36.636 --> 0:04:40.716 its basic form, it's pretty limited in what it can do. Right, Like, 0:04:40.756 --> 0:04:43.756 what's the what are the classic problems with compressed air? 0:04:44.436 --> 0:04:47.196 The first one is around how you manage heat. In 0:04:47.316 --> 0:04:51.596 traditional compressed air, they would compress the air, it gets hot, 0:04:52.076 --> 0:04:54.596 they would lose that heat. But put the compressed air 0:04:54.676 --> 0:04:57.076 underground and when you need it to discharge. 0:04:57.076 --> 0:04:59.076 When you say they would lose that heat, what is that? 0:04:59.156 --> 0:05:02.636 What does that mean? They would essentially just compress and 0:05:02.676 --> 0:05:05.076 then hot air would get sent underground and it would 0:05:05.076 --> 0:05:08.476 dissipate into the earth. And then it when it comes 0:05:08.556 --> 0:05:12.436 up and you want expand that air, then the opposite happens. 0:05:12.476 --> 0:05:15.116 It gets very cold, and because there's moisture in the air, 0:05:15.276 --> 0:05:19.636 it'll cause icicles and snow and it'll freeze up your turbine, 0:05:20.116 --> 0:05:21.956 going cryogenic we call it. 0:05:21.996 --> 0:05:24.996 So that's the problem. It's fine, you put it down 0:05:24.996 --> 0:05:26.916 in the earth and the heat dissipates, that's actually okay. 0:05:26.956 --> 0:05:29.636 The problem is when you want to blow it back 0:05:29.716 --> 0:05:32.676 up to spin a turbine, it basically freezes the turbine 0:05:32.676 --> 0:05:35.876 and the turbine snaps or whatever. That's why it's bad. 0:05:36.396 --> 0:05:38.916 Exactly, it'll ce it up and it won't spin, okay, 0:05:39.036 --> 0:05:41.556 And so to prevent that they have to preheat it. 0:05:41.756 --> 0:05:43.876 So they would burn some natural gas. So when the 0:05:43.916 --> 0:05:46.156 air comes up from the cavern, they would heat it 0:05:46.236 --> 0:05:49.236 up so that once it expands, it doesn't drop below zero. 0:05:49.476 --> 0:05:52.556 So A, that's inefficient, it costs money. And then b 0:05:52.756 --> 0:05:56.756 now when we're talking about doing this, to fight climate change. 0:05:57.196 --> 0:05:58.716 It's totally not what you want. 0:05:59.236 --> 0:06:01.436 Yeah, you have less emissions than a gas plant, but 0:06:01.476 --> 0:06:03.156 you still have half the emissions. 0:06:03.156 --> 0:06:06.996 Calling okay, So that's problem number one is you got 0:06:07.036 --> 0:06:08.756 to burn natural gas to heat up the air when 0:06:08.756 --> 0:06:11.996 you're blowing it because it gets really cold. What's problem 0:06:12.116 --> 0:06:14.396 number two with sort of classic compressed air? 0:06:15.276 --> 0:06:17.956 The problem number two is just where can you build them? 0:06:18.156 --> 0:06:20.436 And traditionally you would only build them where there are 0:06:20.516 --> 0:06:23.356 salt caverns, and salt caverns are as rare to find 0:06:23.356 --> 0:06:27.316 as good pumped hydro sites. So once you overlay, where 0:06:27.316 --> 0:06:30.276 does the grid need storage? Where is their transmission? The 0:06:30.316 --> 0:06:33.676 odds that there's a salt cavern there are very very deminimous. 0:06:33.676 --> 0:06:34.676 So it just didn't have. 0:06:34.636 --> 0:06:37.596 Some Why traditionally did it have to be a salt cavern? 0:06:37.636 --> 0:06:39.116 That seems so random. 0:06:39.356 --> 0:06:43.116 Because you need so much air and for the air 0:06:43.196 --> 0:06:46.956 to be at quite high pressures, because it gets kind 0:06:46.956 --> 0:06:49.236 of complicated. But as you think of a scuba tank 0:06:50.316 --> 0:06:54.516 pumping air in, the pressure starts rising very dramatically. Well, 0:06:54.556 --> 0:06:56.556 to get a sufficient amount of air, you got to 0:06:56.556 --> 0:06:59.716 go to really high pressures. That's too high a pressure 0:06:59.836 --> 0:07:02.316 in most rocks that it would just you would lose 0:07:02.436 --> 0:07:04.596 all of the air force its way out. 0:07:04.476 --> 0:07:06.596 So it just dissipates. You pump all this air in 0:07:06.636 --> 0:07:09.116 there and it just goes through whatever cracks or whatever 0:07:09.236 --> 0:07:11.716 little tiny holes there are. The air just kind of 0:07:11.716 --> 0:07:13.596 blows out and you don't have compressed air anymore. 0:07:13.636 --> 0:07:16.676 Exactly where salt is air tight. And so that's why 0:07:16.676 --> 0:07:18.356 you would typically do it in salt. That's why they 0:07:18.436 --> 0:07:20.436 store a lot of the natural gas and salt. But 0:07:20.476 --> 0:07:23.636 that just the salt formations aren't that common and they're 0:07:24.156 --> 0:07:25.356 not where the grid needs them. 0:07:25.596 --> 0:07:29.836 Okay, so these are our two problems and you encounter 0:07:29.916 --> 0:07:32.956 this guy who seems to have solved them. Who is 0:07:32.996 --> 0:07:34.516 the guy and what has he figured out? 0:07:35.796 --> 0:07:38.956 So the guy's name is Cameron Lewis, and he's a 0:07:38.956 --> 0:07:43.036 traditional serial entrepreneur, engineering technician. He worked in the oil 0:07:43.076 --> 0:07:47.596 patch and Canada, repurposing compressors and turbines for use in 0:07:47.636 --> 0:07:50.596 the oil patch. Then he moved to Ontario to start 0:07:50.596 --> 0:07:53.956 developing wind farms and that's when he realized, look, this 0:07:54.116 --> 0:07:57.516 wind is so intermittent. I need storage. And then he 0:07:57.596 --> 0:07:59.436 was like, how do I make storage? And that's when 0:07:59.476 --> 0:08:02.556 his mind started going because he is a true entrepreneur. 0:08:02.836 --> 0:08:05.076 It reminds me I should have had the name at hand. 0:08:05.116 --> 0:08:07.556 But I talked to that guy who who worked as 0:08:07.716 --> 0:08:12.476 an engineer in the in Texas, Texas and Oklahoma and 0:08:12.476 --> 0:08:14.836 and sort of brought the technologies of the fracking boom 0:08:14.876 --> 0:08:18.436 to geothermal energy. It's kind of Ladimer, yeah, Tim Latimer. 0:08:18.476 --> 0:08:21.516 Tim Latimer, some some parallels right to the story. 0:08:22.276 --> 0:08:22.516 Very so. 0:08:22.836 --> 0:08:24.676 So there are these two problems. One you have the 0:08:24.716 --> 0:08:28.236 problem of when you decompress, when you use your compressed 0:08:28.236 --> 0:08:31.396 air gets really cold. And two you have the problem 0:08:31.476 --> 0:08:33.276 that you can only put the compressed air in a 0:08:33.316 --> 0:08:35.756 few places, otherwise it just sort of dissipates. How does 0:08:35.876 --> 0:08:38.236 using water solve each of those problems? First of all, 0:08:38.236 --> 0:08:40.676 how does it solve the the cold problem? 0:08:41.756 --> 0:08:43.916 So what we do is when the air comes out hot, 0:08:44.036 --> 0:08:46.716 it comes out about two hundred and thirty degrees celsius 0:08:47.476 --> 0:08:50.996 from the compressor. We run it through a heat exchanger 0:08:51.076 --> 0:08:52.836 to pull that heat out, and we store it in 0:08:52.916 --> 0:08:55.836 hot water. So on the surface we have a water tank. 0:08:55.916 --> 0:08:59.516 Think of an LNG sphere filled with water now at 0:08:59.516 --> 0:09:02.476 two hundred degrees C. So we captured that energy and 0:09:02.516 --> 0:09:05.916 that heat hot otherwise would have dissipated, and we store 0:09:05.956 --> 0:09:08.996 it and wrap it in insulation. Okay, then when the 0:09:09.316 --> 0:09:11.756 comes back up, we go in reverse to those heat 0:09:11.756 --> 0:09:14.356 exchanges and use that same heat to high heat the 0:09:14.396 --> 0:09:17.996 air so that it doesn't go cryogenic and it eliminates 0:09:18.036 --> 0:09:19.196 the need for natural gas. 0:09:19.356 --> 0:09:22.076 Yeah, that's it's elegant, right, It's so elegant because that 0:09:22.156 --> 0:09:26.836 heat is actually energy that in conventional that in conventional 0:09:26.836 --> 0:09:29.076 compressor was just getting lost, right, and then you had 0:09:29.156 --> 0:09:31.436 to provide more energy to heat the air backup. So 0:09:31.436 --> 0:09:35.476 in your model you capture that energy by heating up water, 0:09:35.596 --> 0:09:37.276 and then you use the hot water to heat up 0:09:37.276 --> 0:09:39.036 the air when you're blowing it through the turbine, so 0:09:39.036 --> 0:09:39.756 you don't have to. 0:09:39.956 --> 0:09:43.636 Burn gas exactly, moving the round trip efficiency from thirty 0:09:43.636 --> 0:09:45.236 five percent to seventy percent. 0:09:45.516 --> 0:09:48.876 Satisfying, Very satisfying. Okay. So the other problem is in 0:09:48.916 --> 0:09:51.916 the conventional version, you need AsSalt cavern so that your 0:09:52.516 --> 0:09:55.716 air doesn't just dissipate through whatever the little tiny holes 0:09:55.716 --> 0:09:59.876 in the rock. And why does using water mean you 0:09:59.916 --> 0:10:01.356 don't need that? You can do it in a lot 0:10:01.396 --> 0:10:01.956 more places. 0:10:02.756 --> 0:10:04.916 So the way our cavern works is if you think 0:10:04.916 --> 0:10:08.396 of a cavern where two thousand feet underground we hallow 0:10:08.396 --> 0:10:12.236 out think of cubic football field. We backfill it with 0:10:12.356 --> 0:10:15.556 water a one time fill. When you finish construction, you 0:10:15.596 --> 0:10:17.956 fill it up with water. Okay, Now, when you're pushing 0:10:17.996 --> 0:10:21.116 air in, it's moving the water down and lifting it 0:10:21.156 --> 0:10:22.356 all the way to the surface. 0:10:22.436 --> 0:10:24.716 A ha, So you just did a hand motion that 0:10:24.756 --> 0:10:26.956 I want to explain for people listening. So it's basically 0:10:27.356 --> 0:10:30.236 it like it goes down like whatever in a sink 0:10:30.316 --> 0:10:32.196 in your kitchen sink. It goes down, but then it 0:10:32.236 --> 0:10:35.076 turns back up. It's like a j There's basically a 0:10:35.116 --> 0:10:36.836 pipe that goes down out of the bottom of the 0:10:36.836 --> 0:10:38.996 cavern and then makes a U turn and goes up 0:10:39.036 --> 0:10:39.636 to the surface. 0:10:40.036 --> 0:10:42.156 That's right. And then at the surface we have a 0:10:42.156 --> 0:10:46.596 little pond with enough volume that once the air is 0:10:46.876 --> 0:10:49.636 full of the cavern. I eat caverns filled with air, 0:10:50.036 --> 0:10:51.996 all that water that used to be in the cavern 0:10:52.036 --> 0:10:53.796 has now been lifted up to the surface. 0:10:54.556 --> 0:10:57.956 And why does this solve that problem? Why does that 0:10:57.996 --> 0:10:59.236 mean you don't need a salt. 0:10:58.996 --> 0:11:03.196 Cavern because the air pressure will move the water down 0:11:03.316 --> 0:11:06.396 that jhook and lift to the surface before it would 0:11:06.476 --> 0:11:07.636 put trude through the rocks. 0:11:07.996 --> 0:11:12.636 Okay, so this is a very elegant idea. You're still 0:11:12.716 --> 0:11:17.076 you're working for a nuclear power plant. You come across 0:11:17.116 --> 0:11:21.916 this idea, but you don't decide to try it for 0:11:21.956 --> 0:11:23.876 the nuclear power plant, like what happens next? 0:11:24.876 --> 0:11:27.676 Well, that was my desire, and so I asked him, 0:11:27.676 --> 0:11:29.516 I said, well, what if we wanted to pilot one 0:11:29.596 --> 0:11:31.716 or build one with you? And he basically said, I 0:11:31.716 --> 0:11:34.156 have a company name and a patent and that's it, 0:11:34.396 --> 0:11:37.516 and I don't really know what to do next. And 0:11:37.556 --> 0:11:39.876 then I started looking for other options. There was no 0:11:39.956 --> 0:11:41.756 other options, and I said, look, we're kind of a 0:11:42.116 --> 0:11:44.676 canary in the coal mine. Every utility is going to 0:11:44.716 --> 0:11:48.796 ultimately see these challenges eventually. So I saw the opportunity. 0:11:48.836 --> 0:11:52.396 So I quit my job, drained some savings, and joined 0:11:52.396 --> 0:11:55.436 as the co founder and we started Hydrostore. 0:11:56.676 --> 0:12:00.996 And you know, now, in the past few years, basically 0:12:01.076 --> 0:12:05.276 since solar took off, everybody has been talking about long 0:12:05.356 --> 0:12:09.476 duration storage, right, long duration energy storage. Everybody it was 0:12:09.516 --> 0:12:12.636 not talking about it then what solar power costs? What 0:12:12.796 --> 0:12:14.956 it it costs then ten times what it costs. Now, 0:12:14.996 --> 0:12:17.396 I don't know. It was not at all like it 0:12:17.476 --> 0:12:20.116 is now right. It was not at all obvious that 0:12:20.116 --> 0:12:21.876 solar power is going to be everywhere and the problem 0:12:21.956 --> 0:12:24.516 was going to be storage, Like, what were you thinking 0:12:24.556 --> 0:12:25.596 about at that time? 0:12:25.756 --> 0:12:29.596 In that context, it kind of comes back to the 0:12:29.676 --> 0:12:32.876 nuclear power plant, because we had half of Ontario's grid 0:12:32.956 --> 0:12:35.836 was nuclear that can't turn down and forty percent of 0:12:35.836 --> 0:12:37.796 the rest was hydro that can't turn down. 0:12:38.036 --> 0:12:38.276 Interest. 0:12:38.316 --> 0:12:41.076 So once we added wind and solar, you really started 0:12:41.076 --> 0:12:44.716 to see the swings. And I realized that Ontario's grid 0:12:44.796 --> 0:12:48.596 is very unique. But once once you take away your 0:12:48.636 --> 0:12:53.636 base load, once intermittency is a decent portion of what's left, 0:12:53.876 --> 0:12:57.916 everyone needs storage. And so I realized that Ontario's grid 0:12:57.996 --> 0:13:00.196 was just seeing it first, but that every grid will 0:13:00.196 --> 0:13:03.916 eventually see it when wind and solar penetration rose. 0:13:04.116 --> 0:13:08.756 Interesting, basically you saw it first because nuclear and hydro 0:13:08.876 --> 0:13:11.796 are you uniquely difficult to turn on and off really fast, 0:13:11.836 --> 0:13:15.716 whereas most other places they're using natural gas, they're using coal, 0:13:15.756 --> 0:13:17.996 which you can basically turn on and off. So the 0:13:18.076 --> 0:13:20.076 intermittency was not such an acute problem. 0:13:20.156 --> 0:13:22.396 So early exactly interesting. 0:13:22.876 --> 0:13:24.036 You were right about. 0:13:23.796 --> 0:13:27.676 That, And then once wind and solar started coming on, 0:13:27.956 --> 0:13:29.996 they started saying, well, we need storage, but we only 0:13:30.076 --> 0:13:32.636 need fifteen minutes, and then that turned a half hour, 0:13:32.796 --> 0:13:35.996 than an hour, then two, then four. Now it's eight 0:13:36.196 --> 0:13:38.356 in a lot of markets. Now they're moving to twelve. 0:13:38.396 --> 0:13:41.876 They're even talking forty fifty hours of storage. And it's 0:13:41.916 --> 0:13:45.076 true that as the wind and solar penetration rise, your 0:13:45.156 --> 0:13:49.716 duration of storage keeps growing. And right now I'd say 0:13:49.836 --> 0:13:52.796 roughly a third of the world needs eight hour storage 0:13:52.836 --> 0:13:55.196 and the other two thirds still aren't there yet, but 0:13:55.356 --> 0:13:55.876 it's coming. 0:13:56.276 --> 0:14:00.036 And it's basically, the more wind and solar you have, 0:14:00.236 --> 0:14:02.756 the larger a share of your power, they represent the 0:14:03.276 --> 0:14:04.476 longer duration. 0:14:04.236 --> 0:14:07.676 You need for storage exactly. And you can firm it 0:14:07.756 --> 0:14:10.916 up with natural gas to a point. But then you 0:14:10.956 --> 0:14:14.076 start curtailing so much solar, burning so much natural gas, 0:14:14.076 --> 0:14:17.476 you stop putting solar on, whereas with long duration storage, 0:14:17.996 --> 0:14:20.316 we allow you to keep adding more solar, more wind, 0:14:20.356 --> 0:14:22.076 and you can that's how you get to one hundred 0:14:22.076 --> 0:14:22.916 percent renewable. 0:14:23.116 --> 0:14:27.196 I mean, long duration storage is clearly the problem at 0:14:27.196 --> 0:14:29.836 this point, right at least in places where there's a 0:14:29.836 --> 0:14:33.636 decent amount of solar or wind, or wires going to 0:14:33.716 --> 0:14:35.796 places where there's a decent amount of solar wind it 0:14:35.836 --> 0:14:39.356 does seem like storage in general and long duration storage 0:14:39.396 --> 0:14:41.956 in particular is the bottleneck. 0:14:43.276 --> 0:14:47.076 Yes, and I think the technologies are there now, but 0:14:47.196 --> 0:14:50.156 we don't have the market structures to properly pay for 0:14:50.276 --> 0:14:52.636 it and compensate it, which is holding it up from 0:14:53.116 --> 0:14:57.436 really taking off. So California, Australia they've been pretty innovative. 0:14:57.836 --> 0:15:01.756 The UK is doing some stuff now, Ontario in Canada, 0:15:02.276 --> 0:15:05.116 but it requires you to change market reform. 0:15:05.276 --> 0:15:07.476 Yeah, I want to get to that. I feel like 0:15:07.516 --> 0:15:09.676 there's a fair bit to talk about in terms of policy, 0:15:10.636 --> 0:15:13.956 but first I want to get you from twenty ten 0:15:14.076 --> 0:15:18.836 to twenty twenty five. So you have essentially an idea, right, 0:15:18.916 --> 0:15:22.956 you have intellectual property and a name and two guys 0:15:22.956 --> 0:15:26.756 in a dream like what I don't want to do 0:15:26.956 --> 0:15:29.436 every day of the last fifteen years, obviously, but like, 0:15:30.316 --> 0:15:32.356 what are a few of the key points, like the 0:15:32.396 --> 0:15:33.756 few key marks you had to hit. 0:15:36.076 --> 0:15:38.836 The first one was we worked with a university, University 0:15:38.876 --> 0:15:42.436 of Windsor to validate the engineering that it would work. 0:15:42.516 --> 0:15:46.396 The heat mass balance and all the basic physics were sound, 0:15:47.436 --> 0:15:50.756 so we did that. Then we ran pool tests, so 0:15:50.996 --> 0:15:55.516 using underwater structures, we were able to show it at 0:15:55.516 --> 0:15:58.796 a very small scale to validate the models in real world. 0:15:59.516 --> 0:16:02.196 Then we moved to a bigger pilot out in a 0:16:02.276 --> 0:16:05.556 lake and we built that to further validate. We had 0:16:05.556 --> 0:16:09.796 a truck with a compressor in it, heat exchangers, balloons 0:16:09.836 --> 0:16:12.116 sunk by concrete out in the lake with a hose 0:16:12.156 --> 0:16:12.556 coming back. 0:16:12.596 --> 0:16:13.116 That's cool. 0:16:13.276 --> 0:16:18.996 Yeah. That was enough to get enough data to get 0:16:19.116 --> 0:16:21.716 enough grant money. We secured about eight nine million of 0:16:21.756 --> 0:16:24.356 grant money. Then we were able to attract the venture 0:16:24.396 --> 0:16:28.836 capital investor our turn Ventures, and Toronto Hydro was willing 0:16:28.876 --> 0:16:32.156 to host a pilot plant, so a grid connected one 0:16:32.236 --> 0:16:36.036 megawatt one megwat hour pilot plant. So we took that 0:16:36.116 --> 0:16:38.956 grant money and the venture money and we're now six 0:16:39.076 --> 0:16:43.436 seven people and we built this pilot plant, grid connected 0:16:43.476 --> 0:16:47.596 and it was pretty neat. We sunk giant structures offshore 0:16:47.596 --> 0:16:49.596 in the lake. So instead of digging a cavern and 0:16:49.636 --> 0:16:53.116 filling it with water, we sunk essentially a structure within 0:16:53.156 --> 0:16:56.396 a lake and connected it back with drill pipe. 0:16:55.996 --> 0:16:58.236 Like like a bubble sitting there on the bottom of 0:16:58.236 --> 0:17:00.036 the lake like a caisson. 0:17:00.956 --> 0:17:04.356 It was massive and so that data it proved that 0:17:04.436 --> 0:17:08.196 everything worked. We optimized the heat exchangers the control system 0:17:08.716 --> 0:17:12.636 and filed a lot more intellectual property and then so 0:17:12.676 --> 0:17:16.156 that was a five year temporary pilot. Once we had 0:17:16.156 --> 0:17:19.956 that data, then the an ISSO was running a procurement 0:17:20.076 --> 0:17:22.396 for piloting long duration storage. 0:17:22.516 --> 0:17:24.036 What's an ISO. 0:17:24.676 --> 0:17:29.356 Electricity system operator here in Ontario, So they ran a pilot, 0:17:29.596 --> 0:17:32.516 we submitted a bid, we won the contract to build 0:17:32.516 --> 0:17:35.916 a plant that had a ten year revenue contract. 0:17:35.996 --> 0:17:38.236 A real thing. So that's a real thing. 0:17:38.436 --> 0:17:41.836 Yeah, And so that was called our Gottarage facility and 0:17:41.836 --> 0:17:44.476 we turned that on in twenty nineteen and have been 0:17:44.556 --> 0:17:46.996 running it ever since. So then we had we call 0:17:47.036 --> 0:17:51.076 that our commercial reference facility, so it references our technology, 0:17:51.156 --> 0:17:54.076 albeit at a fairly small scale. It's two megawats eight 0:17:54.116 --> 0:17:57.836 megawatt hours. But we ran that and then we brought 0:17:57.876 --> 0:18:03.516 insurance companies through and engineering construction companies and said go 0:18:03.596 --> 0:18:05.476 through this and tell us why this wouldn't work at 0:18:05.516 --> 0:18:07.876 a larger scale. And they were able to then give 0:18:07.956 --> 0:18:11.196 us insurance products and different things that would make a 0:18:11.316 --> 0:18:12.756 larger project bankable. 0:18:12.916 --> 0:18:16.036 It's like you're in the infrastructure business basically, right, and 0:18:16.116 --> 0:18:19.476 so you need like tons of capital, tons of insurance, 0:18:20.556 --> 0:18:22.596 like right, You've got to spend a lot of money now, 0:18:22.636 --> 0:18:25.916 and you'll get paid back every year for whatever twenty 0:18:25.996 --> 0:18:28.436 years or something. Whatever is the life of it. It's 0:18:28.516 --> 0:18:32.876 like a big, hard, complicated Ultimately you wanted to be boring, 0:18:32.916 --> 0:18:36.156 although I'm sure it's not boring yet, business right, right. 0:18:35.996 --> 0:18:38.556 So this was setting us up for that. So then 0:18:38.596 --> 0:18:42.196 this plant kind of got us all the financial instruments 0:18:42.196 --> 0:18:44.476 that we would need to do a big one. So 0:18:44.516 --> 0:18:47.716 then we went and started developing big plants. We now 0:18:47.876 --> 0:18:50.796 are about to start construction in Australia for a one 0:18:50.876 --> 0:18:54.076 billion dollar plant and in California for about a one 0:18:54.116 --> 0:18:58.476 point five billion dollar plant. And because we had the 0:18:58.476 --> 0:19:01.756 pilot plant, we have the insurance, the confidence of the constructors, 0:19:01.756 --> 0:19:04.436 and we're able to get debt and project level equity 0:19:04.516 --> 0:19:07.556 and project finance those first two big plants. So now 0:19:07.596 --> 0:19:12.396 we're in the process of constructing those and once they're operational, 0:19:13.116 --> 0:19:16.476 then the technology should be boring and completely de risk, 0:19:16.476 --> 0:19:19.516 which would then allow utilities to start building it on 0:19:19.596 --> 0:19:22.476 their own balance sheet without us having to mobilize all 0:19:22.476 --> 0:19:25.956 the capital. We would say, you know, utility X or 0:19:25.996 --> 0:19:28.756 a Google or Microsoft or a data center, if you 0:19:28.796 --> 0:19:30.836 want one, you can pay for and build it, and 0:19:30.876 --> 0:19:32.956 we'll just take a technology license fee. 0:19:32.956 --> 0:19:35.756 So you you don't want to be in the infrastructure business. 0:19:35.836 --> 0:19:38.076 You want to be in an intellectual property business, and you're 0:19:38.116 --> 0:19:41.156 just in the in the in the infrastructure business to 0:19:41.236 --> 0:19:42.436 prove that it's a good idea. 0:19:43.756 --> 0:19:46.716 Yes, I think we'll always stay in the infrastructure business. 0:19:46.796 --> 0:19:49.236 It's just the opportunity is so huge, and these plants 0:19:49.236 --> 0:19:51.836 are so big, Like we have eighteen we're developing, but 0:19:51.876 --> 0:19:54.276 each one is a billion and a half. Well that's 0:19:54.436 --> 0:19:57.196 you know, twenty five thirty billion dollars and we're only 0:19:57.236 --> 0:19:58.556 in a handful of markets. 0:19:58.676 --> 0:20:00.876 The idea is you're going to finance all of those 0:20:00.956 --> 0:20:04.396 Like in the current model, you're there, they're yours. 0:20:04.756 --> 0:20:08.036 There, ares We're backed by some pension funds, Goldman Sachs 0:20:08.196 --> 0:20:10.596 and so we've got a decent amount of capital. Will 0:20:10.676 --> 0:20:13.316 keep bringing partners in. But like we're not doing anything 0:20:13.356 --> 0:20:17.716 in India, Japan, China, like I can't do that globally, 0:20:17.876 --> 0:20:20.396 and so the model is allow other people to build 0:20:20.396 --> 0:20:23.516 it on their balance sheet and become that IP licensing 0:20:23.556 --> 0:20:26.476 company while we still do the core infrastructure in the 0:20:26.516 --> 0:20:28.356 markets that we choose to offerate. 0:20:32.236 --> 0:20:35.476 Still to come on the show, competing against lithium ion 0:20:35.556 --> 0:20:40.956 batteries making three hundred failed pitches, and also what political 0:20:41.036 --> 0:20:54.196 change in Washington might mean for Hydrostore. I'd heard Curtis 0:20:54.236 --> 0:20:57.156 talking in other interviews about how hard it was to 0:20:57.196 --> 0:21:00.836 build his company, and of course founders always talk about 0:21:00.876 --> 0:21:03.836