1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:21,316 --> 00:00:24,396 Speaker 2: Today's show is a good show, and I can give 3 00:00:24,436 --> 00:00:28,276 Speaker 2: you several reasons why. One, it's a show about the 4 00:00:28,396 --> 00:00:33,436 Speaker 2: energy transition, so we got the high stakes of climate change. Two, 5 00:00:33,796 --> 00:00:38,116 Speaker 2: it's more specifically about long duration energy storage, which may 6 00:00:38,156 --> 00:00:41,876 Speaker 2: be the key problem to solve in climate change now 7 00:00:41,916 --> 00:00:45,716 Speaker 2: that solar power is so cheap but also so intermittent, 8 00:00:45,916 --> 00:00:49,276 Speaker 2: the Sun's not always out, you got to store the energy. Three, 9 00:00:50,036 --> 00:00:54,436 Speaker 2: the story has some very clever, fun technical insights. Four 10 00:00:54,596 --> 00:00:58,716 Speaker 2: we get some real moments of harrowing drama. And finally, five, 11 00:00:59,276 --> 00:01:04,436 Speaker 2: perhaps most surprising, today's show includes a defense of fighting 12 00:01:04,996 --> 00:01:13,756 Speaker 2: in hockey. I'm Jacob Goldstein, and this is what's your problem. 13 00:01:13,956 --> 00:01:16,876 Speaker 2: My guest today is Curtis van Wallingham. He is the 14 00:01:16,916 --> 00:01:19,916 Speaker 2: co founder and CEO of a company called the hygro Store. 15 00:01:20,756 --> 00:01:24,636 Speaker 2: Curtis's problem is this, how can you store energy by 16 00:01:24,676 --> 00:01:28,836 Speaker 2: compressing air in giant underground caverns, and how can you 17 00:01:28,876 --> 00:01:32,636 Speaker 2: do it efficiently almost anywhere in the world. The idea 18 00:01:32,676 --> 00:01:35,756 Speaker 2: of compressed air storage has been around for a long time, 19 00:01:36,036 --> 00:01:39,236 Speaker 2: but it's had some fundamental problems that have limited its use. 20 00:01:39,796 --> 00:01:42,156 Speaker 2: As you'll hear, Curtis thinks he and his colleagues have 21 00:01:42,236 --> 00:01:46,076 Speaker 2: solved those problems. Since co founding the company fifteen years ago, 22 00:01:46,436 --> 00:01:50,036 Speaker 2: Hydrostore has built a fully functioning plant and has recently 23 00:01:50,116 --> 00:01:54,476 Speaker 2: signed multiple billion dollar contracts to build facilities around the world. 24 00:01:55,236 --> 00:01:57,676 Speaker 2: Curtis told me he got interested in compressed air back 25 00:01:57,716 --> 00:01:59,716 Speaker 2: in two thousand and eight when he had kind of 26 00:01:59,756 --> 00:02:02,996 Speaker 2: a weird problem. He was working at a power plant 27 00:02:03,036 --> 00:02:06,676 Speaker 2: that was generating more energy than anyone could use. 28 00:02:07,476 --> 00:02:10,196 Speaker 1: So I was the head of planning a nuclear plant. 29 00:02:10,436 --> 00:02:13,316 Speaker 1: I think it's the world's second largest single site nuclear 30 00:02:13,316 --> 00:02:18,516 Speaker 1: plant in Ontario, called Bruce Power. And because we have 31 00:02:18,596 --> 00:02:21,676 Speaker 1: so much hydro and nuclear in Ontario, when we started 32 00:02:21,676 --> 00:02:23,916 Speaker 1: adding wind and solar, we started to see we had 33 00:02:23,916 --> 00:02:26,636 Speaker 1: too much power. We couldn't export it, and so we 34 00:02:26,676 --> 00:02:29,476 Speaker 1: would have to shed power, which for a nuclear plant 35 00:02:29,476 --> 00:02:32,956 Speaker 1: it means essentially dumping steam into the Great Lakes. But 36 00:02:32,996 --> 00:02:35,796 Speaker 1: it required a lot of manual labor, moving valves and 37 00:02:35,836 --> 00:02:37,876 Speaker 1: doing stuff that it wasn't designed to do. So it 38 00:02:37,916 --> 00:02:39,396 Speaker 1: was driving up maintenance costs. 39 00:02:39,636 --> 00:02:43,436 Speaker 2: And also it's a bummer, right, Like you're generating you 40 00:02:43,476 --> 00:02:45,556 Speaker 2: want to make energy, you don't want to dump steam 41 00:02:45,596 --> 00:02:47,596 Speaker 2: into a lake exactly. 42 00:02:47,836 --> 00:02:50,076 Speaker 1: And so then I tried to build a pump hydro 43 00:02:50,156 --> 00:02:52,756 Speaker 1: plant because back there, this is two thousand and eight, 44 00:02:53,156 --> 00:02:56,556 Speaker 1: the only real commonplace to store power was through pump 45 00:02:56,596 --> 00:02:59,516 Speaker 1: tydro So I tried to find a site and it 46 00:02:59,596 --> 00:03:02,516 Speaker 1: was just impossible to see how you could find a site, 47 00:03:02,596 --> 00:03:05,716 Speaker 1: get permits and build something anywhere near a timeframe. 48 00:03:06,036 --> 00:03:09,876 Speaker 2: And just to be clear, sorry, but pumped hydro is 49 00:03:09,876 --> 00:03:13,236 Speaker 2: is sort of the classic kind of long duration energy storage, 50 00:03:13,276 --> 00:03:15,996 Speaker 2: right where you pump water essentially up a hill from 51 00:03:16,036 --> 00:03:18,036 Speaker 2: some lower level to some higher level when you have 52 00:03:18,076 --> 00:03:20,236 Speaker 2: the power, and then when you when you want to 53 00:03:20,316 --> 00:03:22,676 Speaker 2: discharge the battery, you just let it flow downhill and 54 00:03:23,076 --> 00:03:24,356 Speaker 2: spin a turbine. 55 00:03:23,956 --> 00:03:27,476 Speaker 1: More or less right exactly, any hydro electric dam, just 56 00:03:27,676 --> 00:03:30,356 Speaker 1: stop the dam from producing and start pumping water back 57 00:03:30,396 --> 00:03:33,596 Speaker 1: up to the top reservoir. And so tried to do 58 00:03:33,636 --> 00:03:36,196 Speaker 1: that and realized there was no possible way of doing it. 59 00:03:36,236 --> 00:03:38,116 Speaker 1: So I had a team of five or six people 60 00:03:38,156 --> 00:03:40,036 Speaker 1: at the time, and I asked them to research is 61 00:03:40,076 --> 00:03:42,556 Speaker 1: there other ways of storing power? And that's when I 62 00:03:42,596 --> 00:03:45,796 Speaker 1: came across my co founder Cam who had this idea 63 00:03:45,916 --> 00:03:49,036 Speaker 1: and it's essentially the opposite of pumped hydro. Put air 64 00:03:49,236 --> 00:03:52,636 Speaker 1: underwater and get the buoyancy. So instead of lifting water 65 00:03:52,716 --> 00:03:55,596 Speaker 1: and air, why don't you sink air underwater and get 66 00:03:55,636 --> 00:03:58,916 Speaker 1: the buoyancy. And you know, as an engineer, it was 67 00:03:59,036 --> 00:04:01,356 Speaker 1: kind of intriguing to me. So I thought about it, 68 00:04:01,436 --> 00:04:04,196 Speaker 1: ransom numbers and you know, lo and behold, they said, hey, 69 00:04:04,236 --> 00:04:07,956 Speaker 1: this is compact. It can be easier to site, has 70 00:04:07,996 --> 00:04:10,836 Speaker 1: all the advantages of pump tydro much easier to permit. 71 00:04:11,396 --> 00:04:13,876 Speaker 1: So took the plunge, quit my job, and threw some 72 00:04:13,916 --> 00:04:16,516 Speaker 1: money in and fifteen years later here we are. 73 00:04:17,476 --> 00:04:21,236 Speaker 2: So your co founder's idea, it was a variation on 74 00:04:21,356 --> 00:04:25,556 Speaker 2: this old idea of compressed air. Right, when you have 75 00:04:25,636 --> 00:04:29,356 Speaker 2: more energy than you need, use it to compress air underground, 76 00:04:29,396 --> 00:04:31,676 Speaker 2: and then when you need the energy, sort of blow 77 00:04:31,716 --> 00:04:34,196 Speaker 2: the air back up and use that to generate energy. Right, 78 00:04:34,276 --> 00:04:36,596 Speaker 2: that's the basic idea. It's an old idea, and in 79 00:04:36,636 --> 00:04:40,716 Speaker 2: its basic form, it's pretty limited in what it can do. Right, Like, 80 00:04:40,756 --> 00:04:43,756 Speaker 2: what's the what are the classic problems with compressed air? 81 00:04:44,436 --> 00:04:47,196 Speaker 1: The first one is around how you manage heat. In 82 00:04:47,316 --> 00:04:51,596 Speaker 1: traditional compressed air, they would compress the air, it gets hot, 83 00:04:52,076 --> 00:04:54,596 Speaker 1: they would lose that heat. But put the compressed air 84 00:04:54,676 --> 00:04:57,076 Speaker 1: underground and when you need it to discharge. 85 00:04:57,076 --> 00:04:59,076 Speaker 2: When you say they would lose that heat, what is that? 86 00:04:59,156 --> 00:05:02,636 Speaker 1: What does that mean? They would essentially just compress and 87 00:05:02,676 --> 00:05:05,076 Speaker 1: then hot air would get sent underground and it would 88 00:05:05,076 --> 00:05:08,476 Speaker 1: dissipate into the earth. And then it when it comes 89 00:05:08,556 --> 00:05:12,436 Speaker 1: up and you want expand that air, then the opposite happens. 90 00:05:12,476 --> 00:05:15,116 Speaker 1: It gets very cold, and because there's moisture in the air, 91 00:05:15,276 --> 00:05:19,636 Speaker 1: it'll cause icicles and snow and it'll freeze up your turbine, 92 00:05:20,116 --> 00:05:21,956 Speaker 1: going cryogenic we call it. 93 00:05:21,996 --> 00:05:24,996 Speaker 2: So that's the problem. It's fine, you put it down 94 00:05:24,996 --> 00:05:26,916 Speaker 2: in the earth and the heat dissipates, that's actually okay. 95 00:05:26,956 --> 00:05:29,636 Speaker 2: The problem is when you want to blow it back 96 00:05:29,716 --> 00:05:32,676 Speaker 2: up to spin a turbine, it basically freezes the turbine 97 00:05:32,676 --> 00:05:35,876 Speaker 2: and the turbine snaps or whatever. That's why it's bad. 98 00:05:36,396 --> 00:05:38,916 Speaker 1: Exactly, it'll ce it up and it won't spin, okay, 99 00:05:39,036 --> 00:05:41,556 Speaker 1: And so to prevent that they have to preheat it. 100 00:05:41,756 --> 00:05:43,876 Speaker 1: So they would burn some natural gas. So when the 101 00:05:43,916 --> 00:05:46,156 Speaker 1: air comes up from the cavern, they would heat it 102 00:05:46,236 --> 00:05:49,236 Speaker 1: up so that once it expands, it doesn't drop below zero. 103 00:05:49,476 --> 00:05:52,556 Speaker 2: So A, that's inefficient, it costs money. And then b 104 00:05:52,756 --> 00:05:56,756 Speaker 2: now when we're talking about doing this, to fight climate change. 105 00:05:57,196 --> 00:05:58,716 Speaker 2: It's totally not what you want. 106 00:05:59,236 --> 00:06:01,436 Speaker 1: Yeah, you have less emissions than a gas plant, but 107 00:06:01,476 --> 00:06:03,156 Speaker 1: you still have half the emissions. 108 00:06:03,156 --> 00:06:06,996 Speaker 2: Calling okay, So that's problem number one is you got 109 00:06:07,036 --> 00:06:08,756 Speaker 2: to burn natural gas to heat up the air when 110 00:06:08,756 --> 00:06:11,996 Speaker 2: you're blowing it because it gets really cold. What's problem 111 00:06:12,116 --> 00:06:14,396 Speaker 2: number two with sort of classic compressed air? 112 00:06:15,276 --> 00:06:17,956 Speaker 1: The problem number two is just where can you build them? 113 00:06:18,156 --> 00:06:20,436 Speaker 1: And traditionally you would only build them where there are 114 00:06:20,516 --> 00:06:23,356 Speaker 1: salt caverns, and salt caverns are as rare to find 115 00:06:23,356 --> 00:06:27,316 Speaker 1: as good pumped hydro sites. So once you overlay, where 116 00:06:27,316 --> 00:06:30,276 Speaker 1: does the grid need storage? Where is their transmission? The 117 00:06:30,316 --> 00:06:33,676 Speaker 1: odds that there's a salt cavern there are very very deminimous. 118 00:06:33,676 --> 00:06:34,676 Speaker 1: So it just didn't have. 119 00:06:34,636 --> 00:06:37,596 Speaker 2: Some Why traditionally did it have to be a salt cavern? 120 00:06:37,636 --> 00:06:39,116 Speaker 2: That seems so random. 121 00:06:39,356 --> 00:06:43,116 Speaker 1: Because you need so much air and for the air 122 00:06:43,196 --> 00:06:46,956 Speaker 1: to be at quite high pressures, because it gets kind 123 00:06:46,956 --> 00:06:49,236 Speaker 1: of complicated. But as you think of a scuba tank 124 00:06:50,316 --> 00:06:54,516 Speaker 1: pumping air in, the pressure starts rising very dramatically. Well, 125 00:06:54,556 --> 00:06:56,556 Speaker 1: to get a sufficient amount of air, you got to 126 00:06:56,556 --> 00:06:59,716 Speaker 1: go to really high pressures. That's too high a pressure 127 00:06:59,836 --> 00:07:02,316 Speaker 1: in most rocks that it would just you would lose 128 00:07:02,436 --> 00:07:04,596 Speaker 1: all of the air force its way out. 129 00:07:04,476 --> 00:07:06,596 Speaker 2: So it just dissipates. You pump all this air in 130 00:07:06,636 --> 00:07:09,116 Speaker 2: there and it just goes through whatever cracks or whatever 131 00:07:09,236 --> 00:07:11,716 Speaker 2: little tiny holes there are. The air just kind of 132 00:07:11,716 --> 00:07:13,596 Speaker 2: blows out and you don't have compressed air anymore. 133 00:07:13,636 --> 00:07:16,676 Speaker 1: Exactly where salt is air tight. And so that's why 134 00:07:16,676 --> 00:07:18,356 Speaker 1: you would typically do it in salt. That's why they 135 00:07:18,436 --> 00:07:20,436 Speaker 1: store a lot of the natural gas and salt. But 136 00:07:20,476 --> 00:07:23,636 Speaker 1: that just the salt formations aren't that common and they're 137 00:07:24,156 --> 00:07:25,356 Speaker 1: not where the grid needs them. 138 00:07:25,596 --> 00:07:29,836 Speaker 2: Okay, so these are our two problems and you encounter 139 00:07:29,916 --> 00:07:32,956 Speaker 2: this guy who seems to have solved them. Who is 140 00:07:32,996 --> 00:07:34,516 Speaker 2: the guy and what has he figured out? 141 00:07:35,796 --> 00:07:38,956 Speaker 1: So the guy's name is Cameron Lewis, and he's a 142 00:07:38,956 --> 00:07:43,036 Speaker 1: traditional serial entrepreneur, engineering technician. He worked in the oil 143 00:07:43,076 --> 00:07:47,596 Speaker 1: patch and Canada, repurposing compressors and turbines for use in 144 00:07:47,636 --> 00:07:50,596 Speaker 1: the oil patch. Then he moved to Ontario to start 145 00:07:50,596 --> 00:07:53,956 Speaker 1: developing wind farms and that's when he realized, look, this 146 00:07:54,116 --> 00:07:57,516 Speaker 1: wind is so intermittent. I need storage. And then he 147 00:07:57,596 --> 00:07:59,436 Speaker 1: was like, how do I make storage? And that's when 148 00:07:59,476 --> 00:08:02,556 Speaker 1: his mind started going because he is a true entrepreneur. 149 00:08:02,836 --> 00:08:05,076 Speaker 2: It reminds me I should have had the name at hand. 150 00:08:05,116 --> 00:08:07,556 Speaker 2: But I talked to that guy who who worked as 151 00:08:07,716 --> 00:08:12,476 Speaker 2: an engineer in the in Texas, Texas and Oklahoma and 152 00:08:12,476 --> 00:08:14,836 Speaker 2: and sort of brought the technologies of the fracking boom 153 00:08:14,876 --> 00:08:18,436 Speaker 2: to geothermal energy. It's kind of Ladimer, yeah, Tim Latimer. 154 00:08:18,476 --> 00:08:21,516 Speaker 2: Tim Latimer, some some parallels right to the story. 155 00:08:22,276 --> 00:08:22,516 Speaker 1: Very so. 156 00:08:22,836 --> 00:08:24,676 Speaker 2: So there are these two problems. One you have the 157 00:08:24,716 --> 00:08:28,236 Speaker 2: problem of when you decompress, when you use your compressed 158 00:08:28,236 --> 00:08:31,396 Speaker 2: air gets really cold. And two you have the problem 159 00:08:31,476 --> 00:08:33,276 Speaker 2: that you can only put the compressed air in a 160 00:08:33,316 --> 00:08:35,756 Speaker 2: few places, otherwise it just sort of dissipates. How does 161 00:08:35,876 --> 00:08:38,236 Speaker 2: using water solve each of those problems? First of all, 162 00:08:38,236 --> 00:08:40,676 Speaker 2: how does it solve the the cold problem? 163 00:08:41,756 --> 00:08:43,916 Speaker 1: So what we do is when the air comes out hot, 164 00:08:44,036 --> 00:08:46,716 Speaker 1: it comes out about two hundred and thirty degrees celsius 165 00:08:47,476 --> 00:08:50,996 Speaker 1: from the compressor. We run it through a heat exchanger 166 00:08:51,076 --> 00:08:52,836 Speaker 1: to pull that heat out, and we store it in 167 00:08:52,916 --> 00:08:55,836 Speaker 1: hot water. So on the surface we have a water tank. 168 00:08:55,916 --> 00:08:59,516 Speaker 1: Think of an LNG sphere filled with water now at 169 00:08:59,516 --> 00:09:02,476 Speaker 1: two hundred degrees C. So we captured that energy and 170 00:09:02,516 --> 00:09:05,916 Speaker 1: that heat hot otherwise would have dissipated, and we store 171 00:09:05,956 --> 00:09:08,996 Speaker 1: it and wrap it in insulation. Okay, then when the 172 00:09:09,316 --> 00:09:11,756 Speaker 1: comes back up, we go in reverse to those heat 173 00:09:11,756 --> 00:09:14,356 Speaker 1: exchanges and use that same heat to high heat the 174 00:09:14,396 --> 00:09:17,996 Speaker 1: air so that it doesn't go cryogenic and it eliminates 175 00:09:18,036 --> 00:09:19,196 Speaker 1: the need for natural gas. 176 00:09:19,356 --> 00:09:22,076 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it's elegant, right, It's so elegant because that 177 00:09:22,156 --> 00:09:26,836 Speaker 2: heat is actually energy that in conventional that in conventional 178 00:09:26,836 --> 00:09:29,076 Speaker 2: compressor was just getting lost, right, and then you had 179 00:09:29,156 --> 00:09:31,436 Speaker 2: to provide more energy to heat the air backup. So 180 00:09:31,436 --> 00:09:35,476 Speaker 2: in your model you capture that energy by heating up water, 181 00:09:35,596 --> 00:09:37,276 Speaker 2: and then you use the hot water to heat up 182 00:09:37,276 --> 00:09:39,036 Speaker 2: the air when you're blowing it through the turbine, so 183 00:09:39,036 --> 00:09:39,756 Speaker 2: you don't have to. 184 00:09:39,956 --> 00:09:43,636 Speaker 1: Burn gas exactly, moving the round trip efficiency from thirty 185 00:09:43,636 --> 00:09:45,236 Speaker 1: five percent to seventy percent. 186 00:09:45,516 --> 00:09:48,876 Speaker 2: Satisfying, Very satisfying. Okay. So the other problem is in 187 00:09:48,916 --> 00:09:51,916 Speaker 2: the conventional version, you need AsSalt cavern so that your 188 00:09:52,516 --> 00:09:55,716 Speaker 2: air doesn't just dissipate through whatever the little tiny holes 189 00:09:55,716 --> 00:09:59,876 Speaker 2: in the rock. And why does using water mean you 190 00:09:59,916 --> 00:10:01,356 Speaker 2: don't need that? You can do it in a lot 191 00:10:01,396 --> 00:10:01,956 Speaker 2: more places. 192 00:10:02,756 --> 00:10:04,916 Speaker 1: So the way our cavern works is if you think 193 00:10:04,916 --> 00:10:08,396 Speaker 1: of a cavern where two thousand feet underground we hallow 194 00:10:08,396 --> 00:10:12,236 Speaker 1: out think of cubic football field. We backfill it with 195 00:10:12,356 --> 00:10:15,556 Speaker 1: water a one time fill. When you finish construction, you 196 00:10:15,596 --> 00:10:17,956 Speaker 1: fill it up with water. Okay, Now, when you're pushing 197 00:10:17,996 --> 00:10:21,116 Speaker 1: air in, it's moving the water down and lifting it 198 00:10:21,156 --> 00:10:22,356 Speaker 1: all the way to the surface. 199 00:10:22,436 --> 00:10:24,716 Speaker 2: A ha, So you just did a hand motion that 200 00:10:24,756 --> 00:10:26,956 Speaker 2: I want to explain for people listening. So it's basically 201 00:10:27,356 --> 00:10:30,236 Speaker 2: it like it goes down like whatever in a sink 202 00:10:30,316 --> 00:10:32,196 Speaker 2: in your kitchen sink. It goes down, but then it 203 00:10:32,236 --> 00:10:35,076 Speaker 2: turns back up. It's like a j There's basically a 204 00:10:35,116 --> 00:10:36,836 Speaker 2: pipe that goes down out of the bottom of the 205 00:10:36,836 --> 00:10:38,996 Speaker 2: cavern and then makes a U turn and goes up 206 00:10:39,036 --> 00:10:39,636 Speaker 2: to the surface. 207 00:10:40,036 --> 00:10:42,156 Speaker 1: That's right. And then at the surface we have a 208 00:10:42,156 --> 00:10:46,596 Speaker 1: little pond with enough volume that once the air is 209 00:10:46,876 --> 00:10:49,636 Speaker 1: full of the cavern. I eat caverns filled with air, 210 00:10:50,036 --> 00:10:51,996 Speaker 1: all that water that used to be in the cavern 211 00:10:52,036 --> 00:10:53,796 Speaker 1: has now been lifted up to the surface. 212 00:10:54,556 --> 00:10:57,956 Speaker 2: And why does this solve that problem? Why does that 213 00:10:57,996 --> 00:10:59,236 Speaker 2: mean you don't need a salt. 214 00:10:58,996 --> 00:11:03,196 Speaker 1: Cavern because the air pressure will move the water down 215 00:11:03,316 --> 00:11:06,396 Speaker 1: that jhook and lift to the surface before it would 216 00:11:06,476 --> 00:11:07,636 Speaker 1: put trude through the rocks. 217 00:11:07,996 --> 00:11:12,636 Speaker 2: Okay, so this is a very elegant idea. You're still 218 00:11:12,716 --> 00:11:17,076 Speaker 2: you're working for a nuclear power plant. You come across 219 00:11:17,116 --> 00:11:21,916 Speaker 2: this idea, but you don't decide to try it for 220 00:11:21,956 --> 00:11:23,876 Speaker 2: the nuclear power plant, like what happens next? 221 00:11:24,876 --> 00:11:27,676 Speaker 1: Well, that was my desire, and so I asked him, 222 00:11:27,676 --> 00:11:29,516 Speaker 1: I said, well, what if we wanted to pilot one 223 00:11:29,596 --> 00:11:31,716 Speaker 1: or build one with you? And he basically said, I 224 00:11:31,716 --> 00:11:34,156 Speaker 1: have a company name and a patent and that's it, 225 00:11:34,396 --> 00:11:37,516 Speaker 1: and I don't really know what to do next. And 226 00:11:37,556 --> 00:11:39,876 Speaker 1: then I started looking for other options. There was no 227 00:11:39,956 --> 00:11:41,756 Speaker 1: other options, and I said, look, we're kind of a 228 00:11:42,116 --> 00:11:44,676 Speaker 1: canary in the coal mine. Every utility is going to 229 00:11:44,716 --> 00:11:48,796 Speaker 1: ultimately see these challenges eventually. So I saw the opportunity. 230 00:11:48,836 --> 00:11:52,396 Speaker 1: So I quit my job, drained some savings, and joined 231 00:11:52,396 --> 00:11:55,436 Speaker 1: as the co founder and we started Hydrostore. 232 00:11:56,676 --> 00:12:00,996 Speaker 2: And you know, now, in the past few years, basically 233 00:12:01,076 --> 00:12:05,276 Speaker 2: since solar took off, everybody has been talking about long 234 00:12:05,356 --> 00:12:09,476 Speaker 2: duration storage, right, long duration energy storage. Everybody it was 235 00:12:09,516 --> 00:12:12,636 Speaker 2: not talking about it then what solar power costs? What 236 00:12:12,796 --> 00:12:14,956 Speaker 2: it it costs then ten times what it costs. Now, 237 00:12:14,996 --> 00:12:17,396 Speaker 2: I don't know. It was not at all like it 238 00:12:17,476 --> 00:12:20,116 Speaker 2: is now right. It was not at all obvious that 239 00:12:20,116 --> 00:12:21,876 Speaker 2: solar power is going to be everywhere and the problem 240 00:12:21,956 --> 00:12:24,516 Speaker 2: was going to be storage, Like, what were you thinking 241 00:12:24,556 --> 00:12:25,596 Speaker 2: about at that time? 242 00:12:25,756 --> 00:12:29,596 Speaker 1: In that context, it kind of comes back to the 243 00:12:29,676 --> 00:12:32,876 Speaker 1: nuclear power plant, because we had half of Ontario's grid 244 00:12:32,956 --> 00:12:35,836 Speaker 1: was nuclear that can't turn down and forty percent of 245 00:12:35,836 --> 00:12:37,796 Speaker 1: the rest was hydro that can't turn down. 246 00:12:38,036 --> 00:12:38,276 Speaker 2: Interest. 247 00:12:38,316 --> 00:12:41,076 Speaker 1: So once we added wind and solar, you really started 248 00:12:41,076 --> 00:12:44,716 Speaker 1: to see the swings. And I realized that Ontario's grid 249 00:12:44,796 --> 00:12:48,596 Speaker 1: is very unique. But once once you take away your 250 00:12:48,636 --> 00:12:53,636 Speaker 1: base load, once intermittency is a decent portion of what's left, 251 00:12:53,876 --> 00:12:57,916 Speaker 1: everyone needs storage. And so I realized that Ontario's grid 252 00:12:57,996 --> 00:13:00,196 Speaker 1: was just seeing it first, but that every grid will 253 00:13:00,196 --> 00:13:03,916 Speaker 1: eventually see it when wind and solar penetration rose. 254 00:13:04,116 --> 00:13:08,756 Speaker 2: Interesting, basically you saw it first because nuclear and hydro 255 00:13:08,876 --> 00:13:11,796 Speaker 2: are you uniquely difficult to turn on and off really fast, 256 00:13:11,836 --> 00:13:15,716 Speaker 2: whereas most other places they're using natural gas, they're using coal, 257 00:13:15,756 --> 00:13:17,996 Speaker 2: which you can basically turn on and off. So the 258 00:13:18,076 --> 00:13:20,076 Speaker 2: intermittency was not such an acute problem. 259 00:13:20,156 --> 00:13:22,396 Speaker 1: So early exactly interesting. 260 00:13:22,876 --> 00:13:24,036 Speaker 2: You were right about. 261 00:13:23,796 --> 00:13:27,676 Speaker 1: That, And then once wind and solar started coming on, 262 00:13:27,956 --> 00:13:29,996 Speaker 1: they started saying, well, we need storage, but we only 263 00:13:30,076 --> 00:13:32,636 Speaker 1: need fifteen minutes, and then that turned a half hour, 264 00:13:32,796 --> 00:13:35,996 Speaker 1: than an hour, then two, then four. Now it's eight 265 00:13:36,196 --> 00:13:38,356 Speaker 1: in a lot of markets. Now they're moving to twelve. 266 00:13:38,396 --> 00:13:41,876 Speaker 1: They're even talking forty fifty hours of storage. And it's 267 00:13:41,916 --> 00:13:45,076 Speaker 1: true that as the wind and solar penetration rise, your 268 00:13:45,156 --> 00:13:49,716 Speaker 1: duration of storage keeps growing. And right now I'd say 269 00:13:49,836 --> 00:13:52,796 Speaker 1: roughly a third of the world needs eight hour storage 270 00:13:52,836 --> 00:13:55,196 Speaker 1: and the other two thirds still aren't there yet, but 271 00:13:55,356 --> 00:13:55,876 Speaker 1: it's coming. 272 00:13:56,276 --> 00:14:00,036 Speaker 2: And it's basically, the more wind and solar you have, 273 00:14:00,236 --> 00:14:02,756 Speaker 2: the larger a share of your power, they represent the 274 00:14:03,276 --> 00:14:04,476 Speaker 2: longer duration. 275 00:14:04,236 --> 00:14:07,676 Speaker 1: You need for storage exactly. And you can firm it 276 00:14:07,756 --> 00:14:10,916 Speaker 1: up with natural gas to a point. But then you 277 00:14:10,956 --> 00:14:14,076 Speaker 1: start curtailing so much solar, burning so much natural gas, 278 00:14:14,076 --> 00:14:17,476 Speaker 1: you stop putting solar on, whereas with long duration storage, 279 00:14:17,996 --> 00:14:20,316 Speaker 1: we allow you to keep adding more solar, more wind, 280 00:14:20,356 --> 00:14:22,076 Speaker 1: and you can that's how you get to one hundred 281 00:14:22,076 --> 00:14:22,916 Speaker 1: percent renewable. 282 00:14:23,116 --> 00:14:27,196 Speaker 2: I mean, long duration storage is clearly the problem at 283 00:14:27,196 --> 00:14:29,836 Speaker 2: this point, right at least in places where there's a 284 00:14:29,836 --> 00:14:33,636 Speaker 2: decent amount of solar or wind, or wires going to 285 00:14:33,716 --> 00:14:35,796 Speaker 2: places where there's a decent amount of solar wind it 286 00:14:35,836 --> 00:14:39,356 Speaker 2: does seem like storage in general and long duration storage 287 00:14:39,396 --> 00:14:41,956 Speaker 2: in particular is the bottleneck. 288 00:14:43,276 --> 00:14:47,076 Speaker 1: Yes, and I think the technologies are there now, but 289 00:14:47,196 --> 00:14:50,156 Speaker 1: we don't have the market structures to properly pay for 290 00:14:50,276 --> 00:14:52,636 Speaker 1: it and compensate it, which is holding it up from 291 00:14:53,116 --> 00:14:57,436 Speaker 1: really taking off. So California, Australia they've been pretty innovative. 292 00:14:57,836 --> 00:15:01,756 Speaker 1: The UK is doing some stuff now, Ontario in Canada, 293 00:15:02,276 --> 00:15:05,116 Speaker 1: but it requires you to change market reform. 294 00:15:05,276 --> 00:15:07,476 Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to get to that. I feel like 295 00:15:07,516 --> 00:15:09,676 Speaker 2: there's a fair bit to talk about in terms of policy, 296 00:15:10,636 --> 00:15:13,956 Speaker 2: but first I want to get you from twenty ten 297 00:15:14,076 --> 00:15:18,836 Speaker 2: to twenty twenty five. So you have essentially an idea, right, 298 00:15:18,916 --> 00:15:22,956 Speaker 2: you have intellectual property and a name and two guys 299 00:15:22,956 --> 00:15:26,756 Speaker 2: in a dream like what I don't want to do 300 00:15:26,956 --> 00:15:29,436 Speaker 2: every day of the last fifteen years, obviously, but like, 301 00:15:30,316 --> 00:15:32,356 Speaker 2: what are a few of the key points, like the 302 00:15:32,396 --> 00:15:33,756 Speaker 2: few key marks you had to hit. 303 00:15:36,076 --> 00:15:38,836 Speaker 1: The first one was we worked with a university, University 304 00:15:38,876 --> 00:15:42,436 Speaker 1: of Windsor to validate the engineering that it would work. 305 00:15:42,516 --> 00:15:46,396 Speaker 1: The heat mass balance and all the basic physics were sound, 306 00:15:47,436 --> 00:15:50,756 Speaker 1: so we did that. Then we ran pool tests, so 307 00:15:50,996 --> 00:15:55,516 Speaker 1: using underwater structures, we were able to show it at 308 00:15:55,516 --> 00:15:58,796 Speaker 1: a very small scale to validate the models in real world. 309 00:15:59,516 --> 00:16:02,196 Speaker 1: Then we moved to a bigger pilot out in a 310 00:16:02,276 --> 00:16:05,556 Speaker 1: lake and we built that to further validate. We had 311 00:16:05,556 --> 00:16:09,796 Speaker 1: a truck with a compressor in it, heat exchangers, balloons 312 00:16:09,836 --> 00:16:12,116 Speaker 1: sunk by concrete out in the lake with a hose 313 00:16:12,156 --> 00:16:12,556 Speaker 1: coming back. 314 00:16:12,596 --> 00:16:13,116 Speaker 2: That's cool. 315 00:16:13,276 --> 00:16:18,996 Speaker 1: Yeah. That was enough to get enough data to get 316 00:16:19,116 --> 00:16:21,716 Speaker 1: enough grant money. We secured about eight nine million of 317 00:16:21,756 --> 00:16:24,356 Speaker 1: grant money. Then we were able to attract the venture 318 00:16:24,396 --> 00:16:28,836 Speaker 1: capital investor our turn Ventures, and Toronto Hydro was willing 319 00:16:28,876 --> 00:16:32,156 Speaker 1: to host a pilot plant, so a grid connected one 320 00:16:32,236 --> 00:16:36,036 Speaker 1: megawatt one megwat hour pilot plant. So we took that 321 00:16:36,116 --> 00:16:38,956 Speaker 1: grant money and the venture money and we're now six 322 00:16:39,076 --> 00:16:43,436 Speaker 1: seven people and we built this pilot plant, grid connected 323 00:16:43,476 --> 00:16:47,596 Speaker 1: and it was pretty neat. We sunk giant structures offshore 324 00:16:47,596 --> 00:16:49,596 Speaker 1: in the lake. So instead of digging a cavern and 325 00:16:49,636 --> 00:16:53,116 Speaker 1: filling it with water, we sunk essentially a structure within 326 00:16:53,156 --> 00:16:56,396 Speaker 1: a lake and connected it back with drill pipe. 327 00:16:55,996 --> 00:16:58,236 Speaker 2: Like like a bubble sitting there on the bottom of 328 00:16:58,236 --> 00:17:00,036 Speaker 2: the lake like a caisson. 329 00:17:00,956 --> 00:17:04,356 Speaker 1: It was massive and so that data it proved that 330 00:17:04,436 --> 00:17:08,196 Speaker 1: everything worked. We optimized the heat exchangers the control system 331 00:17:08,716 --> 00:17:12,636 Speaker 1: and filed a lot more intellectual property and then so 332 00:17:12,676 --> 00:17:16,156 Speaker 1: that was a five year temporary pilot. Once we had 333 00:17:16,156 --> 00:17:19,956 Speaker 1: that data, then the an ISSO was running a procurement 334 00:17:20,076 --> 00:17:22,396 Speaker 1: for piloting long duration storage. 335 00:17:22,516 --> 00:17:24,036 Speaker 2: What's an ISO. 336 00:17:24,676 --> 00:17:29,356 Speaker 1: Electricity system operator here in Ontario, So they ran a pilot, 337 00:17:29,596 --> 00:17:32,516 Speaker 1: we submitted a bid, we won the contract to build 338 00:17:32,516 --> 00:17:35,916 Speaker 1: a plant that had a ten year revenue contract. 339 00:17:35,996 --> 00:17:38,236 Speaker 2: A real thing. So that's a real thing. 340 00:17:38,436 --> 00:17:41,836 Speaker 1: Yeah, And so that was called our Gottarage facility and 341 00:17:41,836 --> 00:17:44,476 Speaker 1: we turned that on in twenty nineteen and have been 342 00:17:44,556 --> 00:17:46,996 Speaker 1: running it ever since. So then we had we call 343 00:17:47,036 --> 00:17:51,076 Speaker 1: that our commercial reference facility, so it references our technology, 344 00:17:51,156 --> 00:17:54,076 Speaker 1: albeit at a fairly small scale. It's two megawats eight 345 00:17:54,116 --> 00:17:57,836 Speaker 1: megawatt hours. But we ran that and then we brought 346 00:17:57,876 --> 00:18:03,516 Speaker 1: insurance companies through and engineering construction companies and said go 347 00:18:03,596 --> 00:18:05,476 Speaker 1: through this and tell us why this wouldn't work at 348 00:18:05,516 --> 00:18:07,876 Speaker 1: a larger scale. And they were able to then give 349 00:18:07,956 --> 00:18:11,196 Speaker 1: us insurance products and different things that would make a 350 00:18:11,316 --> 00:18:12,756 Speaker 1: larger project bankable. 351 00:18:12,916 --> 00:18:16,036 Speaker 2: It's like you're in the infrastructure business basically, right, and 352 00:18:16,116 --> 00:18:19,476 Speaker 2: so you need like tons of capital, tons of insurance, 353 00:18:20,556 --> 00:18:22,596 Speaker 2: like right, You've got to spend a lot of money now, 354 00:18:22,636 --> 00:18:25,916 Speaker 2: and you'll get paid back every year for whatever twenty 355 00:18:25,996 --> 00:18:28,436 Speaker 2: years or something. Whatever is the life of it. It's 356 00:18:28,516 --> 00:18:32,876 Speaker 2: like a big, hard, complicated Ultimately you wanted to be boring, 357 00:18:32,916 --> 00:18:36,156 Speaker 2: although I'm sure it's not boring yet, business right, right. 358 00:18:35,996 --> 00:18:38,556 Speaker 1: So this was setting us up for that. So then 359 00:18:38,596 --> 00:18:42,196 Speaker 1: this plant kind of got us all the financial instruments 360 00:18:42,196 --> 00:18:44,476 Speaker 1: that we would need to do a big one. So 361 00:18:44,516 --> 00:18:47,716 Speaker 1: then we went and started developing big plants. We now 362 00:18:47,876 --> 00:18:50,796 Speaker 1: are about to start construction in Australia for a one 363 00:18:50,876 --> 00:18:54,076 Speaker 1: billion dollar plant and in California for about a one 364 00:18:54,116 --> 00:18:58,476 Speaker 1: point five billion dollar plant. And because we had the 365 00:18:58,476 --> 00:19:01,756 Speaker 1: pilot plant, we have the insurance, the confidence of the constructors, 366 00:19:01,756 --> 00:19:04,436 Speaker 1: and we're able to get debt and project level equity 367 00:19:04,516 --> 00:19:07,556 Speaker 1: and project finance those first two big plants. So now 368 00:19:07,596 --> 00:19:12,396 Speaker 1: we're in the process of constructing those and once they're operational, 369 00:19:13,116 --> 00:19:16,476 Speaker 1: then the technology should be boring and completely de risk, 370 00:19:16,476 --> 00:19:19,516 Speaker 1: which would then allow utilities to start building it on 371 00:19:19,596 --> 00:19:22,476 Speaker 1: their own balance sheet without us having to mobilize all 372 00:19:22,476 --> 00:19:25,956 Speaker 1: the capital. We would say, you know, utility X or 373 00:19:25,996 --> 00:19:28,756 Speaker 1: a Google or Microsoft or a data center, if you 374 00:19:28,796 --> 00:19:30,836 Speaker 1: want one, you can pay for and build it, and 375 00:19:30,876 --> 00:19:32,956 Speaker 1: we'll just take a technology license fee. 376 00:19:32,956 --> 00:19:35,756 Speaker 2: So you you don't want to be in the infrastructure business. 377 00:19:35,836 --> 00:19:38,076 Speaker 2: You want to be in an intellectual property business, and you're 378 00:19:38,116 --> 00:19:41,156 Speaker 2: just in the in the in the infrastructure business to 379 00:19:41,236 --> 00:19:42,436 Speaker 2: prove that it's a good idea. 380 00:19:43,756 --> 00:19:46,716 Speaker 1: Yes, I think we'll always stay in the infrastructure business. 381 00:19:46,796 --> 00:19:49,236 Speaker 1: It's just the opportunity is so huge, and these plants 382 00:19:49,236 --> 00:19:51,836 Speaker 1: are so big, Like we have eighteen we're developing, but 383 00:19:51,876 --> 00:19:54,276 Speaker 1: each one is a billion and a half. Well that's 384 00:19:54,436 --> 00:19:57,196 Speaker 1: you know, twenty five thirty billion dollars and we're only 385 00:19:57,236 --> 00:19:58,556 Speaker 1: in a handful of markets. 386 00:19:58,676 --> 00:20:00,876 Speaker 2: The idea is you're going to finance all of those 387 00:20:00,956 --> 00:20:04,396 Speaker 2: Like in the current model, you're there, they're yours. 388 00:20:04,756 --> 00:20:08,036 Speaker 1: There, ares We're backed by some pension funds, Goldman Sachs 389 00:20:08,196 --> 00:20:10,596 Speaker 1: and so we've got a decent amount of capital. Will 390 00:20:10,676 --> 00:20:13,316 Speaker 1: keep bringing partners in. But like we're not doing anything 391 00:20:13,356 --> 00:20:17,716 Speaker 1: in India, Japan, China, like I can't do that globally, 392 00:20:17,876 --> 00:20:20,396 Speaker 1: and so the model is allow other people to build 393 00:20:20,396 --> 00:20:23,516 Speaker 1: it on their balance sheet and become that IP licensing 394 00:20:23,556 --> 00:20:26,476 Speaker 1: company while we still do the core infrastructure in the 395 00:20:26,516 --> 00:20:28,356 Speaker 1: markets that we choose to offerate. 396 00:20:32,236 --> 00:20:35,476 Speaker 2: Still to come on the show, competing against lithium ion 397 00:20:35,556 --> 00:20:40,956 Speaker 2: batteries making three hundred failed pitches, and also what political 398 00:20:41,036 --> 00:20:54,196 Speaker 2: change in Washington might mean for Hydrostore. I'd heard Curtis 399 00:20:54,236 --> 00:20:57,156 Speaker 2: talking in other interviews about how hard it was to 400 00:20:57,196 --> 00:21:00,836 Speaker 2: build his company, and of course founders always talk about 401 00:21:00,876 --> 00:21:03,836 Speaker 2: how hard it is to build a company. But somehow, 402 00:21:03,916 --> 00:21:08,196 Speaker 2: when Curtis talked about it, I really felt it, really 403 00:21:08,236 --> 00:21:10,396 Speaker 2: believed him, and so I asked him to tell me 404 00:21:10,436 --> 00:21:12,996 Speaker 2: about some of the moments when it got really hard. 405 00:21:13,316 --> 00:21:15,196 Speaker 1: There were quite a few, to be honest. I mean, 406 00:21:15,236 --> 00:21:18,796 Speaker 1: one certainly was when that structure sunk when we were 407 00:21:18,796 --> 00:21:20,876 Speaker 1: building that first pilot plant. 408 00:21:21,116 --> 00:21:22,716 Speaker 2: Yeah, so tell me about that. So this is the 409 00:21:22,716 --> 00:21:27,636 Speaker 2: first time you're actually doing it. What's happening there? Like 410 00:21:27,636 --> 00:21:29,356 Speaker 2: you're towing does what's it look like? 411 00:21:30,236 --> 00:21:35,156 Speaker 1: It's about the size of a basketball court, maybe twenty 412 00:21:35,236 --> 00:21:38,476 Speaker 1: feet high, and it's all concrete. Think of a culvert 413 00:21:38,476 --> 00:21:41,436 Speaker 1: pipe when you under the highways. Oh yeah, A bunch 414 00:21:41,476 --> 00:21:46,916 Speaker 1: of those strapped together, essentially filled with air, so it 415 00:21:46,916 --> 00:21:49,956 Speaker 1: would float itself almost as a barge that was then 416 00:21:49,996 --> 00:21:53,796 Speaker 1: to be lowered down onto the ground, and then that 417 00:21:53,836 --> 00:21:56,276 Speaker 1: would serve as our air cavity with water moving in 418 00:21:56,316 --> 00:21:59,236 Speaker 1: and out, and so we get it out to the 419 00:21:59,236 --> 00:22:02,076 Speaker 1: deep depths of Lake Ontario and we're towing it and 420 00:22:02,196 --> 00:22:05,716 Speaker 1: a kind of a rogue waves hits and something pops 421 00:22:05,996 --> 00:22:08,596 Speaker 1: and it starts filling with water where it's not supposed to, 422 00:22:09,236 --> 00:22:12,716 Speaker 1: and it drops down and smashes on the seafloor. 423 00:22:12,876 --> 00:22:14,796 Speaker 2: Are you are you watching it? Where are you when 424 00:22:14,796 --> 00:22:15,476 Speaker 2: this is happening. 425 00:22:16,276 --> 00:22:19,156 Speaker 1: I'm at home. Our team is on a barge trailing it, 426 00:22:19,316 --> 00:22:22,196 Speaker 1: and they've got drones down there and cameras. But as 427 00:22:22,196 --> 00:22:24,236 Speaker 1: you can imagine, when it hits all the plume of 428 00:22:25,236 --> 00:22:27,396 Speaker 1: sand and stuff comes up. So it's not till the 429 00:22:27,436 --> 00:22:29,916 Speaker 1: next morning where we see how catastrophic it is. But 430 00:22:29,996 --> 00:22:32,396 Speaker 1: we knew when we lost it, you're not gonna be 431 00:22:32,396 --> 00:22:34,516 Speaker 1: able to lift this thing up. It's so deep divers 432 00:22:34,516 --> 00:22:37,836 Speaker 1: can't even go to access it. I was on the phone, 433 00:22:37,876 --> 00:22:41,436 Speaker 1: like speaker phone, two in the morning at sitting in 434 00:22:41,516 --> 00:22:44,756 Speaker 1: my son's bedroom while he was sleeping with my wife, 435 00:22:44,796 --> 00:22:47,956 Speaker 1: because I was pulling an all night or working and yeah, 436 00:22:47,996 --> 00:22:50,116 Speaker 1: and it was so then we all just kind of 437 00:22:50,156 --> 00:22:53,956 Speaker 1: looked at each other and I told people, safely, wrap 438 00:22:54,036 --> 00:22:55,716 Speaker 1: up the work, go home. We had a meeting the 439 00:22:55,756 --> 00:22:58,116 Speaker 1: next day called the board in and it was essentially, 440 00:22:58,236 --> 00:23:01,476 Speaker 1: we're toast. It was good run, but I think we're done. 441 00:23:02,036 --> 00:23:04,956 Speaker 1: And that's when we said, well, we got all risk insurance. 442 00:23:06,236 --> 00:23:13,396 Speaker 1: Surely this counts. And to the insurance company's credit, they said, yeah, 443 00:23:13,436 --> 00:23:16,316 Speaker 1: you had all risk. Here's four million dollars. Try again 444 00:23:16,396 --> 00:23:18,756 Speaker 1: however you want, but we're not ensuring the second time. 445 00:23:18,916 --> 00:23:20,196 Speaker 2: Oh huh. 446 00:23:20,236 --> 00:23:22,356 Speaker 1: And we pulled it off. The second time. We changed 447 00:23:22,356 --> 00:23:24,756 Speaker 1: design and we got it built and so we had 448 00:23:24,756 --> 00:23:28,676 Speaker 1: our plant operational, which was a great, great milestone for 449 00:23:28,716 --> 00:23:32,596 Speaker 1: the team. There was another time when we realized we 450 00:23:32,676 --> 00:23:34,876 Speaker 1: had it to be a developer. We couldn't just jump 451 00:23:34,956 --> 00:23:37,476 Speaker 1: to that licensing model that we would have to build 452 00:23:37,516 --> 00:23:38,556 Speaker 1: a first big plant. 453 00:23:38,796 --> 00:23:41,476 Speaker 2: So is that your initial So your initial idea was like, 454 00:23:41,596 --> 00:23:44,516 Speaker 2: let's just do a pilot and show that it works 455 00:23:44,556 --> 00:23:47,876 Speaker 2: and then license the technology, because who are we. We're 456 00:23:47,916 --> 00:23:50,596 Speaker 2: not going to get billions of dollars to build a 457 00:23:50,636 --> 00:23:52,956 Speaker 2: gigantic hole in the ground that's got to last for 458 00:23:52,996 --> 00:23:54,676 Speaker 2: twenty years. That's not us exactly. 459 00:23:54,956 --> 00:23:58,596 Speaker 1: And so then we realized that after talking to dozens 460 00:23:58,596 --> 00:24:01,716 Speaker 1: of utilities and developers and everyone said, there's no way 461 00:24:01,716 --> 00:24:04,276 Speaker 1: I'm building the first one on my ballogie. 462 00:24:04,796 --> 00:24:07,876 Speaker 2: Well that's the nature, right, I mean, it's a famously 463 00:24:08,396 --> 00:24:11,756 Speaker 2: conservative in right, it's highly regulated. They're not going to 464 00:24:11,756 --> 00:24:15,396 Speaker 2: take a billion dollar risk on a thing that plausibly 465 00:24:15,476 --> 00:24:15,876 Speaker 2: might not work. 466 00:24:15,956 --> 00:24:16,036 Speaker 1: Right. 467 00:24:16,036 --> 00:24:17,676 Speaker 2: It wouldn't be crazy if it didn't work. 468 00:24:18,116 --> 00:24:21,316 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And so then I had to call my 469 00:24:21,396 --> 00:24:22,996 Speaker 1: board at the time in and say we have to 470 00:24:22,996 --> 00:24:26,276 Speaker 1: be a developer, and they're like, whoa. That means we 471 00:24:26,316 --> 00:24:29,196 Speaker 1: got to park letters of credit, we need tens of 472 00:24:29,236 --> 00:24:31,356 Speaker 1: millions of dollars, and we got to staff up a 473 00:24:31,396 --> 00:24:34,236 Speaker 1: team that looks completely different than the team of engineers 474 00:24:34,276 --> 00:24:38,516 Speaker 1: we have. So then I got on my bike and 475 00:24:38,516 --> 00:24:41,196 Speaker 1: tried to find an investor that would back that new model, 476 00:24:41,636 --> 00:24:43,156 Speaker 1: and it took me six months. 477 00:24:43,196 --> 00:24:45,236 Speaker 2: Got on your bike, what do you do? You are 478 00:24:45,236 --> 00:24:46,916 Speaker 2: you speaking metaphorically or literally? 479 00:24:47,476 --> 00:24:49,196 Speaker 1: Yeah, speaking metaphorically. 480 00:24:49,196 --> 00:24:51,596 Speaker 2: I was hoping you went on some crazy ride. 481 00:24:51,796 --> 00:24:55,036 Speaker 1: Well it was three hundred investors and I think it 482 00:24:55,116 --> 00:24:58,156 Speaker 1: was three hundred and sixteenth said yes, So it was. 483 00:24:58,276 --> 00:25:00,356 Speaker 1: It was a long road. We ran out of capital. 484 00:25:00,476 --> 00:25:03,276 Speaker 1: I had to mortgage my house. My wife was saying, 485 00:25:03,276 --> 00:25:05,916 Speaker 1: you're not drawing a salary. You've put in our savings. 486 00:25:05,956 --> 00:25:08,676 Speaker 1: Now you've mortgaged our house. How do you know the 487 00:25:08,716 --> 00:25:11,036 Speaker 1: investor going to come? You've already been rejected a couple 488 00:25:11,156 --> 00:25:14,836 Speaker 1: hundred times. And then we eventually found an investor that 489 00:25:15,636 --> 00:25:18,516 Speaker 1: saw the vision and was willing to put that risk 490 00:25:18,596 --> 00:25:21,636 Speaker 1: capital in to become a developer. I then got a 491 00:25:21,676 --> 00:25:23,916 Speaker 1: team that was working at Brookfield Renewable. 492 00:25:24,116 --> 00:25:27,196 Speaker 2: All right, before you keep going, what did you say 493 00:25:27,316 --> 00:25:29,156 Speaker 2: when your wife said, why are you doing this? You 494 00:25:29,236 --> 00:25:33,356 Speaker 2: spent all of our money and more and hundreds of 495 00:25:33,356 --> 00:25:37,676 Speaker 2: people have said no, Like she I mean, in retrospect, 496 00:25:37,716 --> 00:25:39,796 Speaker 2: I guess you were right, But like in any kind 497 00:25:39,836 --> 00:25:43,716 Speaker 2: of expected value rational universe, she's right at that point. 498 00:25:45,316 --> 00:25:49,756 Speaker 1: Yeah, what I said was I believe in it. When 499 00:25:49,796 --> 00:25:52,876 Speaker 1: I look at first principles, the technology makes perfect sense 500 00:25:53,156 --> 00:25:55,436 Speaker 1: and the world's going to need it like and so 501 00:25:55,476 --> 00:25:58,836 Speaker 1: I said, there's no fundamental reason. The whole the reason 502 00:25:58,836 --> 00:26:01,836 Speaker 1: the investors were saying no was I'm not the right one. 503 00:26:01,876 --> 00:26:04,556 Speaker 1: It's too much risk for me, it's too much capital, 504 00:26:05,076 --> 00:26:08,356 Speaker 1: the timeline's too long. No one said I don't think 505 00:26:08,356 --> 00:26:11,676 Speaker 1: it'll work, or I don't think long duration storages needed. 506 00:26:12,156 --> 00:26:14,156 Speaker 1: So to me, I just had to find the right 507 00:26:14,796 --> 00:26:17,836 Speaker 1: fit more so than there was a fundamental problem with 508 00:26:17,876 --> 00:26:19,516 Speaker 1: what I was doing, and I wasn't willing to give 509 00:26:19,596 --> 00:26:23,596 Speaker 1: up because I felt so passionate about climate change. But 510 00:26:23,636 --> 00:26:27,236 Speaker 1: also it was so many people had invested money already 511 00:26:27,276 --> 00:26:30,676 Speaker 1: at that point and the team members that had joined me. 512 00:26:30,956 --> 00:26:32,756 Speaker 1: I didn't want to let everyone down. So I was 513 00:26:33,036 --> 00:26:36,636 Speaker 1: wanting to turn over every stone until there was absolutely 514 00:26:36,676 --> 00:26:40,636 Speaker 1: no possible other option. And luckily an investor that had 515 00:26:40,636 --> 00:26:42,956 Speaker 1: said no before, I picked up the phone and called 516 00:26:43,036 --> 00:26:45,436 Speaker 1: them back and said, you're sure you don't want to 517 00:26:45,436 --> 00:26:47,996 Speaker 1: take a harder look, And he had just received a 518 00:26:48,036 --> 00:26:50,836 Speaker 1: big payday from another investment. I caught him while he 519 00:26:50,876 --> 00:26:53,436 Speaker 1: was in a good mood. He said, you know what, Sure, 520 00:26:53,516 --> 00:26:57,716 Speaker 1: let's be kindled these conversations, and that resulted in an investment, 521 00:26:57,796 --> 00:27:01,636 Speaker 1: really our Series B from Warum Partners, and that allowed 522 00:27:01,716 --> 00:27:03,996 Speaker 1: us to staff up a development team, gave us the 523 00:27:04,036 --> 00:27:09,076 Speaker 1: capital to start investing in our Australian project in California. 524 00:27:09,196 --> 00:27:11,556 Speaker 1: That's really when the ball started rolling. We had that 525 00:27:11,636 --> 00:27:14,876 Speaker 1: Goddarich facility done, and then we started winning contracts and 526 00:27:14,916 --> 00:27:18,596 Speaker 1: getting interconnect and now you know, the team's close to 527 00:27:18,596 --> 00:27:21,916 Speaker 1: one hundred and forty people and in multiple countries and 528 00:27:21,956 --> 00:27:22,836 Speaker 1: going going really well. 529 00:27:22,876 --> 00:27:27,116 Speaker 2: At the moment. I've heard you mentioned this moment in 530 00:27:27,556 --> 00:27:31,076 Speaker 2: was it twenty twenty, like in the intense COVID era 531 00:27:31,236 --> 00:27:35,236 Speaker 2: of COVID when you got a contract in Australia, which 532 00:27:35,276 --> 00:27:38,436 Speaker 2: was that your first like big contract? That's right, tell 533 00:27:38,476 --> 00:27:39,236 Speaker 2: me about that moment. 534 00:27:40,436 --> 00:27:43,076 Speaker 1: Yeah, So we started investing in Australia. It was a 535 00:27:43,116 --> 00:27:46,476 Speaker 1: really creative solution. My commercial team came up, so we 536 00:27:46,556 --> 00:27:49,156 Speaker 1: offered the utility something they weren't really asking for, but 537 00:27:49,196 --> 00:27:52,556 Speaker 1: they saw the benefit of it using storage instead of 538 00:27:52,636 --> 00:27:58,436 Speaker 1: transmission to essentially connect this remote community, and they won 539 00:27:58,516 --> 00:28:01,436 Speaker 1: that by the regulatory rules wasn't allowed. So then we 540 00:28:01,476 --> 00:28:04,636 Speaker 1: had to change the regulatory environment. So it was a 541 00:28:04,636 --> 00:28:07,396 Speaker 1: long road, but their light came on and said, wow, 542 00:28:07,396 --> 00:28:11,156 Speaker 1: this is a dramatically cheaper no emissions. So then they 543 00:28:11,236 --> 00:28:14,556 Speaker 1: became an ally for US Transgrid to help change the 544 00:28:14,596 --> 00:28:17,396 Speaker 1: rules in Australia to allow projects like this to go ahead. 545 00:28:18,276 --> 00:28:20,636 Speaker 1: And so we're going through the rules and then then 546 00:28:21,396 --> 00:28:24,396 Speaker 1: they say here's the contract. And so it's a forty 547 00:28:24,476 --> 00:28:28,436 Speaker 1: year contract, like I say, a billion dollar plant, and 548 00:28:29,156 --> 00:28:31,956 Speaker 1: we're starting the permitting work and engaging the stakeholders and 549 00:28:31,996 --> 00:28:35,036 Speaker 1: then COVID hits and Australia shuts their borders, so then 550 00:28:35,076 --> 00:28:38,956 Speaker 1: we had to strike a deal with a local team 551 00:28:39,436 --> 00:28:41,276 Speaker 1: so that they would be our boots on the ground 552 00:28:41,396 --> 00:28:45,436 Speaker 1: until all the border restrictions lifted, and then we ultimately 553 00:28:45,516 --> 00:28:47,956 Speaker 1: bought that partner back out, So it was a bit 554 00:28:47,956 --> 00:28:50,956 Speaker 1: of an expensive foray, but allowed the project to keep moving. 555 00:28:52,316 --> 00:28:54,636 Speaker 2: Did you think it was there a minute where you 556 00:28:54,676 --> 00:28:58,196 Speaker 2: thought COVID was gonna mean it wouldn't work. 557 00:28:59,916 --> 00:29:03,356 Speaker 1: COVID was another time that had to mortgage the house 558 00:29:03,396 --> 00:29:06,996 Speaker 1: because we needed some bridge financing. No investors were investing. 559 00:29:07,236 --> 00:29:09,716 Speaker 2: Had you paid back the other mortgage or you're just 560 00:29:09,956 --> 00:29:11,996 Speaker 2: the value going off? How do you keep mortgaging your 561 00:29:11,996 --> 00:29:13,156 Speaker 2: house in this story. 562 00:29:13,276 --> 00:29:16,636 Speaker 1: No, I got paid back that one, and then we 563 00:29:16,676 --> 00:29:18,796 Speaker 1: were running out of capital again and we had a 564 00:29:18,796 --> 00:29:21,436 Speaker 1: bunch of interested investors, but then when COVID hit, they said, 565 00:29:21,436 --> 00:29:24,036 Speaker 1: look until I figure out where the world goes, I'm 566 00:29:24,036 --> 00:29:26,436 Speaker 1: not putting new money to work. So we had to 567 00:29:26,436 --> 00:29:29,556 Speaker 1: find a way of bridging ourselves for a year, which 568 00:29:29,676 --> 00:29:33,556 Speaker 1: essentially me and some board members loaned the company money 569 00:29:33,556 --> 00:29:37,116 Speaker 1: from our personal balance sheets to get us through, and 570 00:29:37,156 --> 00:29:39,956 Speaker 1: then we ultimately struck a new investor came in, and 571 00:29:39,956 --> 00:29:42,916 Speaker 1: then ultimately Goldman Sacks in the Canadian pension Plan gave 572 00:29:42,996 --> 00:29:45,676 Speaker 1: us a very large check at the end of twenty one. 573 00:29:45,996 --> 00:29:47,996 Speaker 2: Just so I'm not missing any how many times have 574 00:29:48,076 --> 00:29:50,156 Speaker 2: you mortgaged your house to keep the company going? 575 00:29:51,596 --> 00:29:53,436 Speaker 1: That would be three or four? 576 00:29:53,716 --> 00:29:58,196 Speaker 2: Three or four, Okay, I mean the bigger the company, 577 00:29:58,196 --> 00:30:00,636 Speaker 2: the bigger the company gets, the less helpful it's going 578 00:30:00,716 --> 00:30:02,636 Speaker 2: to be unless you keep buying bigger houses. 579 00:30:02,716 --> 00:30:06,236 Speaker 1: Right, I'm still in the same mouth, So it ain't 580 00:30:06,236 --> 00:30:07,436 Speaker 1: getting any bigger. It's not good. 581 00:30:07,476 --> 00:30:09,116 Speaker 2: It's not gonna do much if you got a hundred 582 00:30:09,196 --> 00:30:13,756 Speaker 2: forty people working for you and you're building billion dollar plants, 583 00:30:14,316 --> 00:30:19,796 Speaker 2: unless it's an amazing house, in which case congratulations. So 584 00:30:20,036 --> 00:30:23,076 Speaker 2: I found out about your company when I read that 585 00:30:23,276 --> 00:30:27,796 Speaker 2: you had been awarded a provisional loan of I think 586 00:30:27,796 --> 00:30:31,076 Speaker 2: it was one point seven billion dollars from the US 587 00:30:31,156 --> 00:30:35,676 Speaker 2: Department of Energy. That was I don't know, a month 588 00:30:35,716 --> 00:30:42,836 Speaker 2: ago or something, which congratulations. But also, the federal government's 589 00:30:42,836 --> 00:30:44,756 Speaker 2: a lot different now than it was a month ago, 590 00:30:44,996 --> 00:30:47,516 Speaker 2: and I'm curious what that means for you. I mean, 591 00:30:47,516 --> 00:30:50,036 Speaker 2: what the what political change in the US in particular, 592 00:30:50,796 --> 00:30:51,316 Speaker 2: means for you. 593 00:30:52,636 --> 00:30:55,076 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's still a bit of uncertainty out there, 594 00:30:55,116 --> 00:30:58,156 Speaker 1: but you know, we started working with the Loan Program 595 00:30:58,196 --> 00:31:02,796 Speaker 1: Office three plus years ago, so they've done a tremendous 596 00:31:02,796 --> 00:31:06,876 Speaker 1: amount of diligence. And this is exactly what this program 597 00:31:06,956 --> 00:31:09,716 Speaker 1: is set up for, is newer technology. G's that we 598 00:31:10,236 --> 00:31:12,596 Speaker 1: have a ton of domestic content and are going to 599 00:31:12,596 --> 00:31:16,116 Speaker 1: show a new technology adding to grid resiliency in the US. 600 00:31:17,156 --> 00:31:19,636 Speaker 1: So that's what the loan is for. It's to provide 601 00:31:19,756 --> 00:31:24,516 Speaker 1: the debt for our project in California. And if you know, 602 00:31:24,556 --> 00:31:26,596 Speaker 1: we're putting in a lot of equity into the project, 603 00:31:26,836 --> 00:31:29,716 Speaker 1: and the debt covers obviously the debt to construct and 604 00:31:29,756 --> 00:31:33,796 Speaker 1: the interest during the construction period. So we're really excited 605 00:31:33,796 --> 00:31:36,316 Speaker 1: about the loan. It's a you know, illegally binding loan, 606 00:31:37,476 --> 00:31:39,876 Speaker 1: but you know, with the new administration, there's a lot 607 00:31:39,876 --> 00:31:41,796 Speaker 1: of things moving around, but I think it's aligned with 608 00:31:41,876 --> 00:31:44,796 Speaker 1: their agenda. It's actually in a Republican county, but it 609 00:31:44,996 --> 00:31:52,516 Speaker 1: drives grid resiliency and lowers energy costs for you know, 610 00:31:53,036 --> 00:31:55,876 Speaker 1: the energy dominance that is required for all the data 611 00:31:55,876 --> 00:31:58,756 Speaker 1: centers and load growth out there. So I think it 612 00:31:59,036 --> 00:32:02,436 Speaker 1: and like I said, it's virtually one hundred percent domestic 613 00:32:02,836 --> 00:32:05,836 Speaker 1: uh labor and content that goes into the project. So 614 00:32:06,196 --> 00:32:09,716 Speaker 1: I think it's it's consistent with the newest administration goals, 615 00:32:09,836 --> 00:32:12,516 Speaker 1: and it's a like I say, a binding loan commitment. 616 00:32:12,636 --> 00:32:15,156 Speaker 1: So we've got a couple conditioned precedents we got to 617 00:32:15,156 --> 00:32:17,796 Speaker 1: get through before it we can start drawing on the loan. 618 00:32:17,836 --> 00:32:20,316 Speaker 1: But really excited and it's been great working with the 619 00:32:20,356 --> 00:32:22,676 Speaker 1: Department of Energy and their tremendous staff. 620 00:32:22,716 --> 00:32:25,716 Speaker 2: I want to note that you said energy dominance. That's good, right, 621 00:32:25,756 --> 00:32:28,916 Speaker 2: you got that one. And Republican district is interesting. 622 00:32:29,476 --> 00:32:29,676 Speaker 1: Right. 623 00:32:30,276 --> 00:32:34,516 Speaker 2: My sense is with the Inflation Reduction Act, you know, 624 00:32:35,596 --> 00:32:38,716 Speaker 2: a ton of money for the energy transition, basically a 625 00:32:38,756 --> 00:32:43,516 Speaker 2: lot of it has been going to projects in Republican districts. So, 626 00:32:43,676 --> 00:32:46,756 Speaker 2: I mean, it'll be interesting to see how that plays 627 00:32:46,796 --> 00:32:51,396 Speaker 2: out politically. Right, what you mentioned there's a couple conditions. 628 00:32:51,436 --> 00:32:53,956 Speaker 2: I mean, is it basically if you do certain things, 629 00:32:54,116 --> 00:32:55,796 Speaker 2: you get the money. Is that what that means? 630 00:32:55,836 --> 00:32:56,196 Speaker 1: That's right? 631 00:32:56,196 --> 00:32:58,076 Speaker 2: What are the things? What are the conditions? 632 00:32:58,196 --> 00:33:00,196 Speaker 1: If I had to bubble it down to two, was 633 00:33:00,236 --> 00:33:03,476 Speaker 1: we've got one more revenue contract that we've got to 634 00:33:03,476 --> 00:33:06,676 Speaker 1: sign and then our permits. Our permits are working through 635 00:33:06,716 --> 00:33:10,716 Speaker 1: the California Energy Commission. We expecte Q three Q four 636 00:33:10,796 --> 00:33:13,516 Speaker 1: we would have that permit, so we need those. We 637 00:33:13,556 --> 00:33:16,116 Speaker 1: need a permit to construct, and then the last revenue 638 00:33:16,116 --> 00:33:17,156 Speaker 1: contract to be signed. 639 00:33:17,836 --> 00:33:21,236 Speaker 2: So let's talk a little bit about long duration storage 640 00:33:21,516 --> 00:33:25,556 Speaker 2: kind of more broadly, right, Like it's a huge problem, 641 00:33:25,636 --> 00:33:28,156 Speaker 2: as you said, it's a bigger problem the more there 642 00:33:28,276 --> 00:33:33,156 Speaker 2: there is a wind and solar power. Lots of people 643 00:33:33,236 --> 00:33:36,916 Speaker 2: are trying lots of different ways to solve it. Like 644 00:33:37,556 --> 00:33:39,596 Speaker 2: give me a sense of the landscape more broadly, and 645 00:33:39,636 --> 00:33:41,516 Speaker 2: where you fit, Like what are other people doing? And 646 00:33:41,556 --> 00:33:44,156 Speaker 2: then what are you particularly good at, what's the one 647 00:33:44,156 --> 00:33:46,836 Speaker 2: thing that you can do more reliably, more cheaply, whatever. 648 00:33:48,236 --> 00:33:50,036 Speaker 1: Yeah, you almost have to look at it in a 649 00:33:50,236 --> 00:33:52,476 Speaker 1: kind of a two by two quadrant. On the one 650 00:33:52,516 --> 00:33:55,876 Speaker 1: axis is like scale, is it really big like city 651 00:33:56,356 --> 00:33:58,636 Speaker 1: size or is it for the home? Okay, you know? 652 00:33:58,996 --> 00:34:02,916 Speaker 1: And then on the y axis, if you would, is duration. 653 00:34:03,516 --> 00:34:05,796 Speaker 1: So do you need an hour or two of storage 654 00:34:05,916 --> 00:34:08,836 Speaker 1: or do you need many days or a season of storage? 655 00:34:09,596 --> 00:34:12,876 Speaker 1: We kind of fit in the really large scale, so 656 00:34:12,916 --> 00:34:15,396 Speaker 1: we are hundreds of megawatts to give you a sense 657 00:34:15,436 --> 00:34:18,836 Speaker 1: it's like a quarter of a city load. That's the 658 00:34:18,916 --> 00:34:22,236 Speaker 1: sort of scale much bigger than any individual wind farm 659 00:34:22,276 --> 00:34:24,756 Speaker 1: or solar farm. So we're pretty big scale. 660 00:34:24,556 --> 00:34:28,516 Speaker 2: Quarter of a city, meaning like one hundred thousand homes like. 661 00:34:28,596 --> 00:34:33,316 Speaker 1: Something like that, hundreds of thousands if not a million, 662 00:34:34,876 --> 00:34:38,396 Speaker 1: so quite large. And then we tend to do eight 663 00:34:38,476 --> 00:34:41,636 Speaker 1: hours to twenty four hours, so we'll cover you for 664 00:34:42,076 --> 00:34:44,716 Speaker 1: through the night if you're a solar dominant region, if 665 00:34:44,716 --> 00:34:47,116 Speaker 1: you've got a day or two with low winds, that's 666 00:34:47,156 --> 00:34:50,356 Speaker 1: where we fit in. We're not seasonal, like we won't 667 00:34:50,356 --> 00:34:54,436 Speaker 1: do your spring shoulder season, and we're definitely not an 668 00:34:54,436 --> 00:34:58,516 Speaker 1: hour or two. So lithium ion at both large scale 669 00:34:58,676 --> 00:35:03,596 Speaker 1: and home for like six hours and less is dominated 670 00:35:03,636 --> 00:35:07,676 Speaker 1: by lithium ion, so they own shorter durations six hours 671 00:35:07,676 --> 00:35:13,196 Speaker 1: and less. And then in large scale, really long duration 672 00:35:13,356 --> 00:35:16,596 Speaker 1: that's really been the pumped hydro but they're quite limited 673 00:35:16,636 --> 00:35:18,876 Speaker 1: in what other solutions are out there. And then people 674 00:35:18,916 --> 00:35:23,196 Speaker 1: are talking hydrogen for seasonal. I'm not sure if that's 675 00:35:23,196 --> 00:35:25,396 Speaker 1: going to make sense or not, but we kind of 676 00:35:25,396 --> 00:35:28,476 Speaker 1: have a clear where we play. Now there's four or 677 00:35:28,516 --> 00:35:32,596 Speaker 1: five different technologies going at the other pockets of that 678 00:35:32,676 --> 00:35:34,316 Speaker 1: grid that I haven't mentioned. 679 00:35:34,876 --> 00:35:40,796 Speaker 2: So lithium ion batteries are getting cheaper fast, which is 680 00:35:41,196 --> 00:35:43,876 Speaker 2: good news for the world. What does it mean for you? 681 00:35:43,956 --> 00:35:46,236 Speaker 2: I mean, is it the case that the cheaper lithium 682 00:35:46,276 --> 00:35:51,836 Speaker 2: ion batteries get, the longer the duration they can economically provide. 683 00:35:53,236 --> 00:35:56,116 Speaker 1: Yes, they used to. We used to think it was 684 00:35:56,116 --> 00:35:59,076 Speaker 1: two to four hours. Now they've pushed to six. If 685 00:35:59,076 --> 00:36:01,916 Speaker 1: the cost keep coming down and tariffs don't kind of 686 00:36:01,956 --> 00:36:06,676 Speaker 1: reverse the declines, that could could move to eight. I 687 00:36:06,716 --> 00:36:10,116 Speaker 1: can't really see them moving too much farther beyond that. 688 00:36:10,196 --> 00:36:12,956 Speaker 1: To give you a sense when today's cost, if you 689 00:36:13,036 --> 00:36:16,956 Speaker 1: install the lithium ion battery, it's about three hundred dollars 690 00:36:16,996 --> 00:36:20,836 Speaker 1: per kill awalk hour of storage capacity and it lasts 691 00:36:20,836 --> 00:36:25,956 Speaker 1: maybe ten years with degradation and everything in there. To 692 00:36:26,036 --> 00:36:28,956 Speaker 1: add one hour of our system is fifty dollars a 693 00:36:29,076 --> 00:36:32,036 Speaker 1: killo what hour, and it lasts fifty years with no degradation. 694 00:36:32,876 --> 00:36:36,156 Speaker 1: So it's a pretty you know, on the marginal basis, 695 00:36:36,316 --> 00:36:38,876 Speaker 1: it's a pretty high bar. They would have to drop 696 00:36:38,916 --> 00:36:41,676 Speaker 1: by an order of magnitude, and then they still would 697 00:36:41,756 --> 00:36:44,596 Speaker 1: have to extend their life by five x to kind 698 00:36:44,596 --> 00:36:45,796 Speaker 1: of get into the same. 699 00:36:45,676 --> 00:36:51,956 Speaker 2: Rom that's compelling. So what's next, Like, what are you 700 00:36:51,956 --> 00:36:52,636 Speaker 2: working on now? 701 00:36:53,716 --> 00:36:57,436 Speaker 1: Construct those two plants so in Australia and California, construct 702 00:36:57,476 --> 00:36:59,956 Speaker 1: them on time, on budget, show the world what they 703 00:36:59,996 --> 00:37:02,836 Speaker 1: can do at scale, while we take those other eighteen 704 00:37:02,876 --> 00:37:06,196 Speaker 1: that we're developing and stack them up ready for construction. 705 00:37:08,076 --> 00:37:11,196 Speaker 1: That'll then allow us to start licensing to utilities. And 706 00:37:11,236 --> 00:37:14,356 Speaker 1: we'd like to partner with groups in Japan and China 707 00:37:14,356 --> 00:37:17,876 Speaker 1: and India and Europe to start offering the solution in 708 00:37:17,956 --> 00:37:21,516 Speaker 1: those markets. As opposed to us standing up development teams 709 00:37:21,556 --> 00:37:24,596 Speaker 1: all around the world. We're predominantly focused in North America 710 00:37:24,636 --> 00:37:28,396 Speaker 1: and Australia and the UK as a development platform. 711 00:37:28,916 --> 00:37:30,956 Speaker 2: What are you worried about at this point, Like what 712 00:37:31,036 --> 00:37:31,716 Speaker 2: might go wrong? 713 00:37:33,396 --> 00:37:38,476 Speaker 1: No, I think it's just general team building, culture, project management. 714 00:37:40,036 --> 00:37:43,196 Speaker 1: You know, There's nothing fundamental with our technology supply chain 715 00:37:44,916 --> 00:37:48,316 Speaker 1: policy environment that I'm really worried about. It's really just 716 00:37:48,476 --> 00:37:51,716 Speaker 1: execution from our team. I guess there is a bit 717 00:37:51,756 --> 00:37:55,036 Speaker 1: of the pace for long duration storage will be set 718 00:37:55,036 --> 00:37:57,796 Speaker 1: by policy makers. Do they fix the rules of the 719 00:37:57,916 --> 00:38:01,756 Speaker 1: road for the grids? Do they allow q reform so 720 00:38:01,796 --> 00:38:04,636 Speaker 1: you can get interconnection spots? Will they properly pay for 721 00:38:04,676 --> 00:38:10,276 Speaker 1: long duration storage. How long do permits take? That sort 722 00:38:10,316 --> 00:38:12,596 Speaker 1: of thing will dictate the pace of the build out. 723 00:38:12,796 --> 00:38:15,156 Speaker 1: But I'm confident it's coming. It's just a matter of 724 00:38:16,436 --> 00:38:17,956 Speaker 1: the pace that it accelerates at. 725 00:38:21,316 --> 00:38:23,396 Speaker 2: We'll be back in a minute with the lightning round. 726 00:38:34,836 --> 00:38:38,316 Speaker 2: Let's finish with the lightning round. It'll just be sort 727 00:38:38,356 --> 00:38:40,436 Speaker 2: of random questions, is basically what it's going to be. 728 00:38:43,076 --> 00:38:46,996 Speaker 2: So I read that you spent many years as an 729 00:38:47,116 --> 00:38:50,036 Speaker 2: energy consultant, living in different parts of the world, and 730 00:38:50,076 --> 00:38:53,396 Speaker 2: I'm curious of all of the places you lived, what 731 00:38:53,556 --> 00:38:56,956 Speaker 2: was the most like underrated? So the places like great 732 00:38:57,356 --> 00:38:58,956 Speaker 2: that nobody knows is great. 733 00:39:00,596 --> 00:39:01,716 Speaker 1: Soul? South Korea? 734 00:39:01,916 --> 00:39:03,356 Speaker 2: Oh interesting? Tell me? 735 00:39:05,036 --> 00:39:08,676 Speaker 1: Yeah. I got to spend five months in South Korea 736 00:39:08,716 --> 00:39:10,796 Speaker 1: and just it was for a guy that grew up 737 00:39:10,796 --> 00:39:14,356 Speaker 1: in Northern Ontario in a rural background, being in a 738 00:39:14,396 --> 00:39:22,596 Speaker 1: city that dnse and that intense. From just a stimulation perspective, 739 00:39:22,716 --> 00:39:26,036 Speaker 1: I found very compelling and just a very unique culture, 740 00:39:26,196 --> 00:39:29,076 Speaker 1: unique food, and just a great experience. 741 00:39:29,196 --> 00:39:31,116 Speaker 2: What's one thing I should do if I go to Seoul? 742 00:39:31,676 --> 00:39:32,156 Speaker 1: Karaoke? 743 00:39:32,476 --> 00:39:35,596 Speaker 2: Of course? What's your go to karaoke song? 744 00:39:36,196 --> 00:39:39,436 Speaker 1: Oh? It was the Beatles. I can't remember which one, 745 00:39:39,476 --> 00:39:41,316 Speaker 1: Hey Jude, I think it's a winner. 746 00:39:42,396 --> 00:39:46,596 Speaker 2: I bet you killed with Hey Jude and Seoul. What's 747 00:39:46,636 --> 00:39:49,916 Speaker 2: one thing I should do if I go to Canora, Ontario. 748 00:39:50,836 --> 00:39:54,716 Speaker 1: MS Canora, a little cruise ship around Lake of the Woods. Beautiful. 749 00:39:54,876 --> 00:39:59,036 Speaker 1: I cooked there growing up, helping them to pay pay 750 00:39:59,076 --> 00:40:00,996 Speaker 1: for my fun on the weekends. 751 00:40:01,316 --> 00:40:05,996 Speaker 2: You played hockey at the University of Toronto, and I'm curious. 752 00:40:06,556 --> 00:40:08,236 Speaker 2: I have a friend who's into hockey, and I said, 753 00:40:08,236 --> 00:40:10,596 Speaker 2: I'm talking to a guy who who played hockey. What 754 00:40:10,636 --> 00:40:12,676 Speaker 2: should I ask him? And he said, ask him what 755 00:40:12,756 --> 00:40:15,476 Speaker 2: his view is on fighting in hockey. What's your view 756 00:40:15,516 --> 00:40:17,436 Speaker 2: on fighting in hockey. 757 00:40:18,796 --> 00:40:22,476 Speaker 1: It's a bit complicated, but it keeps everyone honest. So 758 00:40:22,836 --> 00:40:26,116 Speaker 1: I'm a supporter, and you know, there's a code. If 759 00:40:26,116 --> 00:40:29,356 Speaker 1: someone doesn't want to fight, you don't fight. But it 760 00:40:29,476 --> 00:40:30,956 Speaker 1: is a way of keeping things honest. 761 00:40:31,596 --> 00:40:34,196 Speaker 2: What does that mean? That is in fact really interesting 762 00:40:34,236 --> 00:40:36,636 Speaker 2: to me. What does it mean that it keeps everyone honest? 763 00:40:36,836 --> 00:40:39,276 Speaker 1: You know, it can be a very dangerous sport. You know, 764 00:40:39,476 --> 00:40:41,716 Speaker 1: you think of the stick and you can wind up 765 00:40:41,756 --> 00:40:44,156 Speaker 1: and smash someone in the ankle and smash their ankle 766 00:40:44,196 --> 00:40:46,876 Speaker 1: and blow out their career. Someone does that, you know, 767 00:40:46,956 --> 00:40:49,116 Speaker 1: the ref just throwing them in a penalty box, Isn't 768 00:40:49,316 --> 00:40:52,596 Speaker 1: isn't fair retribution for something like that. So no one 769 00:40:52,676 --> 00:40:54,836 Speaker 1: runs around swinging their sticks because they know what would 770 00:40:54,836 --> 00:40:56,436 Speaker 1: happen if they did such a thing. 771 00:40:57,276 --> 00:41:02,036 Speaker 2: That's really interesting. What's one thing you tell somebody who's 772 00:41:02,236 --> 00:41:04,036 Speaker 2: becoming a CEO for the first time. 773 00:41:07,756 --> 00:41:09,756 Speaker 1: You know, I don't know that I'm at the stage 774 00:41:09,756 --> 00:41:12,796 Speaker 1: where I'm giving advice. Yeah, I'm still hearing a long 775 00:41:12,876 --> 00:41:17,356 Speaker 1: time man. Yeah, I guess so, I still feel like 776 00:41:17,356 --> 00:41:19,796 Speaker 1: I'm learning as I'm going. But I guess I would 777 00:41:19,796 --> 00:41:22,276 Speaker 1: say it's about the team more than anything is. You 778 00:41:22,316 --> 00:41:24,356 Speaker 1: can only do so much. In the early days, you're 779 00:41:24,356 --> 00:41:27,676 Speaker 1: doing a lot, but then it's about the team. Team, team. 780 00:41:27,756 --> 00:41:30,516 Speaker 1: Surround yourself with the best possible people, and it's amazing. 781 00:41:31,356 --> 00:41:33,636 Speaker 1: I wake up every day just amazed with what the 782 00:41:33,676 --> 00:41:38,396 Speaker 1: team does and gets accomplished, and you just start realizing 783 00:41:38,396 --> 00:41:41,716 Speaker 1: the power of other people and how much strength there 784 00:41:41,796 --> 00:41:43,836 Speaker 1: is and in the numbers and in the team. So 785 00:41:43,876 --> 00:41:46,116 Speaker 1: I'd just be focus on getting the right team. 786 00:41:46,796 --> 00:41:48,996 Speaker 2: I heard you say that if you had known when 787 00:41:49,036 --> 00:41:51,676 Speaker 2: you started the company how hard it was going to 788 00:41:51,676 --> 00:41:53,316 Speaker 2: be what you know now, you wouldn't have done it, 789 00:41:54,076 --> 00:41:57,396 Speaker 2: And so I'm curious, like, do you think fifteen years 790 00:41:57,396 --> 00:42:00,436 Speaker 2: from now, if you look back at twenty twenty five, 791 00:42:00,516 --> 00:42:02,476 Speaker 2: you would say, Man, if I'd have known how hard 792 00:42:02,516 --> 00:42:04,236 Speaker 2: that fifteen years would be, I would have got out 793 00:42:04,276 --> 00:42:05,316 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty five. 794 00:42:06,636 --> 00:42:08,876 Speaker 1: No, I think I've made it through the you know, 795 00:42:08,916 --> 00:42:11,996 Speaker 1: the J curve. If you will, like your pipe, you 796 00:42:12,436 --> 00:42:15,596 Speaker 1: on your way up to the surface, that's right. Yeah, No, 797 00:42:15,676 --> 00:42:18,516 Speaker 1: it's it now because I think if it would have failed, 798 00:42:18,796 --> 00:42:22,196 Speaker 1: call it four or five years ago, yeah, everyone, you know, 799 00:42:22,396 --> 00:42:25,756 Speaker 1: I wouldn't have had much pride in it, Like there's 800 00:42:25,796 --> 00:42:28,516 Speaker 1: some pride, but we didn't accomplish much. We didn't it 801 00:42:28,556 --> 00:42:31,476 Speaker 1: wasn't that big of a team. We didn't accomplish many milestones. 802 00:42:31,516 --> 00:42:33,956 Speaker 1: We didn't raise that much money. So I basically just 803 00:42:34,036 --> 00:42:37,836 Speaker 1: burned my personal capital and years of my life. And 804 00:42:37,876 --> 00:42:39,756 Speaker 1: I think people would have scoffed because a lot of 805 00:42:39,796 --> 00:42:41,836 Speaker 1: people were scoffing at us, saying, what are you guys doing? 806 00:42:41,916 --> 00:42:44,236 Speaker 1: This doesn't make any sense, And it just would have 807 00:42:44,356 --> 00:42:47,476 Speaker 1: fulfilled those and I think I would have been pretty embarrassed, 808 00:42:47,876 --> 00:42:50,956 Speaker 1: to be honest, Whereas now I think we've accomplished a lot. 809 00:42:51,116 --> 00:42:53,356 Speaker 1: I would be proud, and I'd look back and say, 810 00:42:53,396 --> 00:42:55,556 Speaker 1: you know, we made a really good go at it, 811 00:42:55,636 --> 00:43:00,996 Speaker 1: and but I think moving forward, it's just uh, it's 812 00:43:01,036 --> 00:43:03,676 Speaker 1: just up from here. So I'm excited for the next 813 00:43:03,676 --> 00:43:04,516 Speaker 1: fifteen years. 814 00:43:04,876 --> 00:43:07,796 Speaker 2: Great, thank you for your time. It was great to 815 00:43:07,876 --> 00:43:09,116 Speaker 2: talk with you. 816 00:43:09,236 --> 00:43:10,636 Speaker 1: Thanks, Jacob has been pleasure. 817 00:43:14,276 --> 00:43:17,636 Speaker 2: Turnis Van Wallingham is the co founder and CEO of 818 00:43:17,756 --> 00:43:22,076 Speaker 2: hygro Store. Today's show was produced by Gabriel Hunter Cheng. 819 00:43:22,396 --> 00:43:25,756 Speaker 2: It was edited by Lyddy jeen Kott and engineered by 820 00:43:25,796 --> 00:43:29,356 Speaker 2: Sarah Bruguier. You can email us at problem at Pushkin 821 00:43:29,476 --> 00:43:32,676 Speaker 2: dot FM. I'm Jacob Goldstein and we'll be back next 822 00:43:32,676 --> 00:43:44,276 Speaker 2: week with another episode of What's Your Problem.