1
00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,600
Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

2
00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:06,279
Speaker 1: you know this is a compiletion episode. So every episode

3
00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:09,480
Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

4
00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:13,360
Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

5
00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:15,880
Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

6
00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:17,840
Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

7
00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:20,040
Speaker 1: there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you

8
00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:30,720
Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. Hey, every buddy, America, Hey Americans, America,

9
00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:35,960
Speaker 1: How is American? That is the podcast? And that was

10
00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:37,920
Speaker 1: that was a horrible is ship. That was maybe your

11
00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:41,440
Speaker 1: talk ten worst. This is it could happen here a

12
00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:47,200
Speaker 1: podcast where an incompetent Rube Fox up starting the show

13
00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:50,720
Speaker 1: and then we talk about how things are falling apart

14
00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,440
Speaker 1: or how to make things not fall apart, or some

15
00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:59,760
Speaker 1: version of things in between those two facts. Yep, yep.

16
00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,360
Speaker 1: That's a kind of kind of not great time going

17
00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,080
Speaker 1: on right now. A lot of people are That was

18
00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:08,320
Speaker 1: our second That was our b pitch for the name.

19
00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:13,280
Speaker 1: Kind of time going on right now? Actually not that

20
00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:21,080
Speaker 1: far from what was. Yeah, I mean, it's like, especially

21
00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:23,760
Speaker 1: especially right now, there's there's a lot of a lot

22
00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:26,959
Speaker 1: of trials going on, m feet on stuff, and the

23
00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:32,440
Speaker 1: ad Our Very trial is happening, the one about you know,

24
00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:34,720
Speaker 1: Unit Unite the Right is going on, and of course

25
00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:37,000
Speaker 1: the kind ofn't have his trial as of as of

26
00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:42,400
Speaker 1: recording is um. People, the jury is still in deliberation. UM,

27
00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:44,440
Speaker 1: So no idea what's going to be the result by

28
00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,840
Speaker 1: the time this episode up. I've actually been like not

29
00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:50,880
Speaker 1: commenting on it or neither to think about it. There's

30
00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:52,360
Speaker 1: nothing we can do about it. There's nothing you can do.

31
00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:56,560
Speaker 1: And like a lot of people, there's been discussion about

32
00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,000
Speaker 1: how much civil unrest there's going to be depending on

33
00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:01,640
Speaker 1: the result of the trial. I know there's been a

34
00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,360
Speaker 1: lot of like National guards sent to Wisconsin. It's been

35
00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:07,040
Speaker 1: you know, FBI door Knox and activists tombs trying to

36
00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:08,960
Speaker 1: scare people so they don't you know, go out and

37
00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:11,799
Speaker 1: ride or whatever. Discussion online the people you know planning

38
00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:16,079
Speaker 1: protests in response to in response to whatever the result is. Um.

39
00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:18,640
Speaker 1: I know just today there was a post from I

40
00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:21,800
Speaker 1: think the Ohio Proud Boys claiming that they be sending

41
00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:25,120
Speaker 1: like like, uh, was it hundreds or thousands of like

42
00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:28,960
Speaker 1: people armed with like a RS to Wisconsin or yeah,

43
00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,760
Speaker 1: there's there's a fucking post. People are saying, like, you

44
00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:33,919
Speaker 1: should take it seriously because it's from a Proud Boys

45
00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:36,919
Speaker 1: internal chat, and it's like, we've got three hundred guys

46
00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:40,320
Speaker 1: heavily armed heading to and there's already X number of

47
00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:43,720
Speaker 1: guys there, and we're gonna kill a lot more Communists

48
00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:46,600
Speaker 1: than Kyle Rittenhouse did. And YadA, YadA, YadA, and ya.

49
00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:49,560
Speaker 1: If I could give you one piece of advice now,

50
00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:51,480
Speaker 1: and who knows where the world is at the point

51
00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:54,120
Speaker 1: of which this episode drops, it's when people talk about,

52
00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:56,640
Speaker 1: say when if you are at a protest and someone

53
00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,040
Speaker 1: starts talking about the Proud Boys and the Proud Boys

54
00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:01,160
Speaker 1: are coming or the Proud Boys you're here, if you

55
00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:05,760
Speaker 1: don't immediately see uncontrovertible visual proof that they have access

56
00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:10,840
Speaker 1: to showing it, assume it's nonsense. Okay, Yeah, that is

57
00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:14,400
Speaker 1: my advice as someone who has heard a thousand times

58
00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:16,840
Speaker 1: people say versions of the Proud Boys are coming. Okay,

59
00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:20,760
Speaker 1: insist on evidence or ignore it. But you know, whenever,

60
00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,920
Speaker 1: whenever these big civil you know, unrests and types of

61
00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:27,120
Speaker 1: stuff happens, there's always an increased chance that there will

62
00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:31,320
Speaker 1: be some kind of protest related shooting. Especially people are

63
00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:35,480
Speaker 1: definitely absolutely it may happened by the time this episode dropped.

64
00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:38,520
Speaker 1: Especially people are bringing guns, people people bring firearms under

65
00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:40,400
Speaker 1: there's been a lot of there's you know, for the

66
00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:42,880
Speaker 1: demonstrations outside the courthouse, there's been you know, guns there.

67
00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:46,440
Speaker 1: Um there's been you know, an increasing uh in the

68
00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:49,840
Speaker 1: rate of shootings at protests on the West Coast throughout

69
00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:52,920
Speaker 1: the past few months. Um. So I'm gonna be kind

70
00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:55,440
Speaker 1: of talking about, you know, some things that you can

71
00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:57,720
Speaker 1: do if you're at home and you feel competent enough

72
00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:00,800
Speaker 1: in the aftermath of one of one of these shootings.

73
00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:03,560
Speaker 1: You know, if if if you know, if a proud

74
00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:05,880
Speaker 1: boy does bring a bring a gun and shoot somebody,

75
00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,000
Speaker 1: what you can actually do a video if you're in

76
00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:13,520
Speaker 1: a situation where you've been following something happening all day,

77
00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,760
Speaker 1: there's a shooting and like low quality footage starts coming

78
00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:20,560
Speaker 1: out of somebody killing someone or someone's else, here's what

79
00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:22,640
Speaker 1: to do next if you want to maybe be a

80
00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:26,640
Speaker 1: positive part of that, of that process, well not of

81
00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:30,479
Speaker 1: that process, but of like the aftermath of it. You know.

82
00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,280
Speaker 1: And and because because the universe is cruel, I I

83
00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:39,080
Speaker 1: originally wrote this road right up about the written house shooting. UM,

84
00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:42,680
Speaker 1: because the universe is a cruel place and it's gonna,

85
00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,800
Speaker 1: you know, continue to This particular incident is going to

86
00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:48,080
Speaker 1: continue to be impactful. Even though it's not the first,

87
00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:50,200
Speaker 1: it's not gonna be the last one of these. It

88
00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:52,120
Speaker 1: is still impactful because of how much of a symbol

89
00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:54,919
Speaker 1: has been turned into. So I think a lot of

90
00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:58,800
Speaker 1: people forget about how how chaotic the night on the

91
00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:02,760
Speaker 1: internet was the day of Kenosha shooting. UM like it was.

92
00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:07,720
Speaker 1: It was wild being online as that was going on.

93
00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:10,800
Speaker 1: Uh No, one had no idea what was going on.

94
00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:14,120
Speaker 1: People could not agree on who the shooter was beforehand.

95
00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:16,240
Speaker 1: There was a lot of pictures floating around. It was.

96
00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:19,599
Speaker 1: It was, it was. It was a nightmare. Uh we know,

97
00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:21,880
Speaker 1: we knew that people were shot, we couldn't know how

98
00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:23,720
Speaker 1: many or who. Like it was, it was pretty bad

99
00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:26,479
Speaker 1: and chaotic, And it is always that way in the

100
00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,839
Speaker 1: wake of a shooting. UM, And it is the in

101
00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:32,880
Speaker 1: any given shooting. Always keep in mind when you're when

102
00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:35,520
Speaker 1: you're online or in person and there has been a

103
00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:38,560
Speaker 1: shooting and people are saying things about said shooting other

104
00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,520
Speaker 1: than we should take cover from the shooting. If they're

105
00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,960
Speaker 1: saying anything else about it, Um, you have to assume

106
00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:48,640
Speaker 1: they're probably not either wrong or not entirely accurate. Um,

107
00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:52,240
Speaker 1: because it's hard to be. It happens constantly. I mean,

108
00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:54,320
Speaker 1: that's not it's something against any of them. I can

109
00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:55,880
Speaker 1: remember a moment when you and I were out last

110
00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,040
Speaker 1: year Garrison and there was a shooting I don't know,

111
00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:01,640
Speaker 1: like forty ft away, um if nobody hurt, thankfully, but

112
00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:04,440
Speaker 1: like the the immediate report from it was some guy

113
00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:06,880
Speaker 1: had gotten pulled an a R fifteen out of his

114
00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,360
Speaker 1: car and uh. And I think the thing I said

115
00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:12,360
Speaker 1: to you was, I'll bet you right now it's a

116
00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,880
Speaker 1: nine millimeter handgun. And sure enough, within minutes there was

117
00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:18,440
Speaker 1: a photo. Yeah. It's and it's not that those people

118
00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:22,680
Speaker 1: were like dumb or bad. It's that, like shootings are scary,

119
00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:26,360
Speaker 1: guns getting pulled is scary, and people funk up um

120
00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:30,000
Speaker 1: in in their recollections. Um. It's the same way in which,

121
00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,799
Speaker 1: like if a bear comes after you, uh, you may

122
00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:36,440
Speaker 1: exaggerate the size of that bear in your head because

123
00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,640
Speaker 1: you're scared as ship because it's a bear. Yeah. So

124
00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:44,160
Speaker 1: so I was home on AUGUSTUM just and I I

125
00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:46,680
Speaker 1: was I was actually about to go out to to

126
00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:49,120
Speaker 1: uh a cover a purchase in Portland, but then I

127
00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,120
Speaker 1: saw this happened on my phone on Twitter. It was

128
00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:53,839
Speaker 1: like I cannot go out. I will be more useful

129
00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,000
Speaker 1: at home. UM. So, with with some so much uncertainty

130
00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,760
Speaker 1: online or the details of the actual shooting, it was

131
00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:02,320
Speaker 1: it was clear that trying to provide concrete information would

132
00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,640
Speaker 1: be crucial in the hours to come. So I spowed

133
00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:07,560
Speaker 1: it up my computer and started to try to begin

134
00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:11,560
Speaker 1: to search for you know, information and verifiable stuff. Um.

135
00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:13,880
Speaker 1: So I spent I spent all night looking looking for

136
00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:17,800
Speaker 1: details about the shooter you know, um, uncovering his supposed

137
00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:22,760
Speaker 1: identity um. Ultimately about an hour before the police announced

138
00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:26,200
Speaker 1: their investigation even started um and and twelve hours before

139
00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:30,160
Speaker 1: the police announced the shooters arrest um And also to

140
00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,040
Speaker 1: my surprise at the time, I discovered that the shooter

141
00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:39,440
Speaker 1: was the same age as me. Um. Yeah that was that.

142
00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:43,480
Speaker 1: That was That was a night so um Because because

143
00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:45,360
Speaker 1: I mainly use Twitter and most of the video of

144
00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,280
Speaker 1: the instant was on Twitter, I started, uh my my

145
00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:51,520
Speaker 1: investigation by looking at Twitter. Uh. My first goal was

146
00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:54,440
Speaker 1: to find as as many videos of of the shooting

147
00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:57,240
Speaker 1: that I could and collect pictures of all of the

148
00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,320
Speaker 1: alleged suspects, all all the people who were claiming this,

149
00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:01,680
Speaker 1: this is this is the shooter. I think I think

150
00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:03,320
Speaker 1: I got a picture of the shooter. Who's here's what

151
00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,960
Speaker 1: he is? Um. So, I I kept my eye on

152
00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,200
Speaker 1: trending terms. Uh. So, I searched under the hashtags like Kenosha,

153
00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:16,560
Speaker 1: Kenosha shootings, Knosha shooting, Kenosha protests, boogaloo was trending a lot,

154
00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:18,920
Speaker 1: A lot of people thought the shooter was a boogloo boy.

155
00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:24,679
Speaker 1: Um was not um and also uh hashtag militia. So

156
00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:27,080
Speaker 1: the search has brought up a lot, a lot of

157
00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,160
Speaker 1: photos of of multiple young men, most of whom were

158
00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:34,000
Speaker 1: carrying long guns, and a lot of unconfirmed reports that

159
00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:36,360
Speaker 1: the shooter was a Boogaloo boy was trending on Twitter.

160
00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:38,960
Speaker 1: This was the main the main thing that night was

161
00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:41,880
Speaker 1: boogloo boy shot. All this stuff that that was the main,

162
00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:44,880
Speaker 1: the main trending topic. A lot of a lot of

163
00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:46,880
Speaker 1: confucting details, and I did not want to kind of

164
00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:49,080
Speaker 1: add the misinformation, so I decided to not make any

165
00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:51,679
Speaker 1: posts but whatsoever about the end of the of the

166
00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,400
Speaker 1: shooter until I was one percent confident um that I

167
00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:56,520
Speaker 1: had the correct idea, which takes a while. It's it's

168
00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:59,120
Speaker 1: not you know, Twitter wants you to post stuff quickly

169
00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:01,240
Speaker 1: as soon as you find it out out, and it's

170
00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,160
Speaker 1: way better to hold off your information and wait until

171
00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:06,319
Speaker 1: you are absolutely sure it's the right time to post

172
00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:10,280
Speaker 1: it and because it's the correct, correct stuff. Because mismismisidentifying

173
00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,480
Speaker 1: a suspect, you can have a serious, serious consequences for

174
00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:17,600
Speaker 1: any individual um involved. It's when when the worst things

175
00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,440
Speaker 1: you can do is is mis misidentifying any any suspect.

176
00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:23,960
Speaker 1: So I was looking through all the videos that I

177
00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:27,800
Speaker 1: collected for kind of unique um or identifying clothing that

178
00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,280
Speaker 1: that the shooter may have been wearing. The first video

179
00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,559
Speaker 1: I found useful was from a right wing videographer named

180
00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:38,360
Speaker 1: Drew hernandez Um who a few months later called from

181
00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,480
Speaker 1: Bloodshed at the Capitol. He also testified at the Written

182
00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:44,320
Speaker 1: House trial. This video did not actually show any any

183
00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:47,480
Speaker 1: actual shooting. It had a wounded person on the ground

184
00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,520
Speaker 1: being treated by a medic and a man standing over

185
00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,880
Speaker 1: the scene with with with a gun um and wearing

186
00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:57,000
Speaker 1: a green shirt, a tan baseball cat jeans and like

187
00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:00,320
Speaker 1: purple latex gloves, he had, he had a he had

188
00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:02,719
Speaker 1: a black and orange bag. Um. The person in the

189
00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,240
Speaker 1: green shirt then runs towards the camera while talking on

190
00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:08,200
Speaker 1: the phone, and he says into the phone, UM, I

191
00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,520
Speaker 1: just shot somebody or I just killed somebody. It's hard

192
00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:14,080
Speaker 1: to tell where he's actually saying if it's it's one

193
00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:15,439
Speaker 1: of those things where if you think about it, you

194
00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:19,120
Speaker 1: can hear both ones. Yeh. But but he he says

195
00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:21,760
Speaker 1: something like I just killed somebody on the phone and

196
00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:25,240
Speaker 1: he runs past the camera. So this this this, this

197
00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:27,720
Speaker 1: was the first kind of really important piece of information

198
00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,280
Speaker 1: personal that was brought up in the trial too. And

199
00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:33,679
Speaker 1: he he was like, I don't remember what I said.

200
00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:37,360
Speaker 1: Oh interesting, okay, Yeah. And to be honest, like, even

201
00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:39,680
Speaker 1: if if this was I don't think any of us

202
00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:42,679
Speaker 1: believe this was legitimate self defense. But like, even if

203
00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:46,040
Speaker 1: it was, either of those things would be perfectly acceptable

204
00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:50,880
Speaker 1: things to say. It's a surprising moment, and you probably

205
00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:53,319
Speaker 1: wouldn't remember what you said. I don't necessarily think he's

206
00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:55,280
Speaker 1: lying about that. It turns out he he was. He

207
00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:58,240
Speaker 1: was on the phone with the person who bought him

208
00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:02,280
Speaker 1: the gun of a en of his um. So, but

209
00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:05,240
Speaker 1: but that this was my first important piece of information,

210
00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,199
Speaker 1: you know, the the night of Right, this is before

211
00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:10,200
Speaker 1: anyone's analyzed any of this stuff. So this is the

212
00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:12,320
Speaker 1: first video that I can find. It's like, okay, here's

213
00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:15,480
Speaker 1: a person admitting on camera that they shot somebody. Um,

214
00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,880
Speaker 1: and we're wearing a few potential identifiers, namely the green shirt,

215
00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:21,840
Speaker 1: baseball cap, and bag. Um. So now I can search

216
00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:23,800
Speaker 1: for all of those items together and the rest of

217
00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:27,440
Speaker 1: the footage collected throughout the night. Looking over the top

218
00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:31,480
Speaker 1: viral videos of the night showing multiple people getting shot. Uh,

219
00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:34,160
Speaker 1: this is from this is from later on after the

220
00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:36,679
Speaker 1: first person gets killed, we can see someone in a

221
00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:38,640
Speaker 1: baseball cap, black and raunch bag and what could be

222
00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:43,400
Speaker 1: a green shirt running through a street. Um. Somebody runs

223
00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:45,160
Speaker 1: over to the individual with the gun and kind of

224
00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:47,400
Speaker 1: punches them in the head, not knocking his hat off.

225
00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:49,840
Speaker 1: So now the person running with the gun does not

226
00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:53,080
Speaker 1: have a hat. Individual with the gun he keeps running,

227
00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:55,520
Speaker 1: but trips and falls on the ground before people try

228
00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,560
Speaker 1: to disarm him. Uh. Four more shots are fired from

229
00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:02,520
Speaker 1: the suspect, and uh. One more person dies as a

230
00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:06,439
Speaker 1: result of this. Other person gets their arm nearly blown off. Uh.

231
00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,120
Speaker 1: There is one continuous video of all of this happening.

232
00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:14,800
Speaker 1: Extremely useful having having one video of this whole shot. Yeah. Um,

233
00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:18,200
Speaker 1: so the shooter, who appears to be the same person

234
00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:20,400
Speaker 1: is the other video because of the green shirt and

235
00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:22,920
Speaker 1: the hat at the beginning, continues to get onto his

236
00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:28,480
Speaker 1: feet and runs off again. Uh and the orange orangine orangine,

237
00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:31,000
Speaker 1: a black bag swings in front of him as he's running,

238
00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:35,240
Speaker 1: and a purple glove is also visible. Um. Multiple vehicles

239
00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:39,120
Speaker 1: drive past, like police vehicles. Um. The shooter then walks

240
00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:42,200
Speaker 1: up pretty close to police vehicle and he just he

241
00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:45,360
Speaker 1: just he just with with with the rifle and nothing,

242
00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:47,520
Speaker 1: nothing happens. He he like he wait, he waves to

243
00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,160
Speaker 1: the cops and they just keep driving and he walks away.

244
00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:53,400
Speaker 1: So after finding watching these videos, I had, you know,

245
00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,880
Speaker 1: I had no reason to believe the shooter was in custody. Um,

246
00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,000
Speaker 1: and I had a good idea of his clothing and attire.

247
00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:01,880
Speaker 1: So now it's time to compare this information that I gathered,

248
00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:06,319
Speaker 1: uh two pictures of the supposed you know suspects circulating

249
00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:10,160
Speaker 1: on Twitter. Um. But but first I think now it's

250
00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:14,400
Speaker 1: it's the time to listen to people selling new stuff,

251
00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:18,840
Speaker 1: you know who doesn't oh boy trampled to another state

252
00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:22,360
Speaker 1: to show up armed in a community to threaten people.

253
00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:27,960
Speaker 1: They don't do it. I'm saying they don't. That's good, Okay.

254
00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:33,960
Speaker 1: The products and services who supports Hello Fresh Black Coffee Patrol?

255
00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:39,240
Speaker 1: What do you actually? A number of our sponsors will

256
00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:42,000
Speaker 1: show up unwanted in your community armed. I forgot the

257
00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,520
Speaker 1: Washington State Highway and the FBI have both dropped dads.

258
00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:50,199
Speaker 1: Now we also highway patrol to forget about those motherfuckers

259
00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:53,080
Speaker 1: like Kyle Rittenhouse. A number of our sponsors may show

260
00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,240
Speaker 1: up in your home neighborhood with another one also Black

261
00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:58,960
Speaker 1: Liffle Coffee, Kyle's favorite brand of coffee. Remember, well it

262
00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:06,080
Speaker 1: was until they disavowed him. But here's here we're bad.

263
00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:12,240
Speaker 1: So there was there was a lot of pictures of

264
00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:16,120
Speaker 1: suspects on Twitter, some of them who look nothing like

265
00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,200
Speaker 1: the person we now know who shot those people. Um,

266
00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,240
Speaker 1: funny how that happens. It's uh, well it's not funny.

267
00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:27,680
Speaker 1: It's it's pretty pretty, pretty pretty bad. Yeah, yeah, it's

268
00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:30,360
Speaker 1: it's not great just to share stuff like like that

269
00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,400
Speaker 1: when these things happened. Um, which is why I said

270
00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,720
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna share anything until no, um, I know

271
00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:40,760
Speaker 1: that it's it's it's actually worth posting about. So in uh,

272
00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:43,040
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go through go through all some some some

273
00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,280
Speaker 1: of the pictures and stuff of of I'm going through

274
00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:47,840
Speaker 1: at least one of the pictures of one of the

275
00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:51,560
Speaker 1: people people claimed to be the shooter. So in one

276
00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,680
Speaker 1: picture circulating, you see someone in a green shirt, a

277
00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:58,200
Speaker 1: baseball cap, and big, big, big black rifle. But this

278
00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,640
Speaker 1: man's also wearing shorts, a black hat, not a tan.

279
00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:04,800
Speaker 1: One has no bag, appears to be wearing like a

280
00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:09,000
Speaker 1: tactile vest that is also green. So not the guy,

281
00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:11,160
Speaker 1: even though he's wearing a green shirt and hat. Not

282
00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,040
Speaker 1: the same dude. Was be pretty easy to check. Not

283
00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:15,560
Speaker 1: you don't. You really don't need to share that kind

284
00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:17,960
Speaker 1: of stuff. Pretty sure, Pretty sure a lot of people

285
00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:22,800
Speaker 1: own green shirts. Yea. So two other photos that were circulating,

286
00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,760
Speaker 1: they're claiming to be the guy. We had a green shirt,

287
00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:30,040
Speaker 1: a tan baseball cap put on backwards, jeans um one

288
00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:32,680
Speaker 1: of the one of the pictures has a bag in

289
00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:34,880
Speaker 1: front of which is an orange and black one where

290
00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:39,000
Speaker 1: one of them doesn't. One picture has purple gloves, other

291
00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:43,400
Speaker 1: picture doesn't. But these dudes look pretty similar despite the

292
00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:45,560
Speaker 1: same differences. I'm pretty sure this is this, this is this,

293
00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:47,200
Speaker 1: this is the same guy. But you know, I'm a

294
00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:49,520
Speaker 1: decision at the night, so this is probably the same dude.

295
00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,160
Speaker 1: Um And he does appear to match the shooter a

296
00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:55,160
Speaker 1: lot better. And there was a few few clear fixed

297
00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:59,120
Speaker 1: pictures of his face um here, but honestly, the face

298
00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:01,360
Speaker 1: of if if you look at all the pictures of

299
00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,120
Speaker 1: the Connection shooting that night, the pictures of the suspect

300
00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:06,920
Speaker 1: are really unclear because the way that the light hit

301
00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:10,000
Speaker 1: his face, he looks like an incredibly generic white boy.

302
00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:14,360
Speaker 1: Um like, extremely generic. It is hard to tell any

303
00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,920
Speaker 1: any I identifying features from his face because they look

304
00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:22,120
Speaker 1: like he looks like every every white every white boy.

305
00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,520
Speaker 1: It's really hard to say everyone you went to high

306
00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:30,360
Speaker 1: school with, who I don't know sniffed a girl's chair

307
00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:37,880
Speaker 1: when he likes that's that's Kyle rittenhouse visual. Now that

308
00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:39,560
Speaker 1: I decided that I have, like I have a decent

309
00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,520
Speaker 1: collection of pictures of who I believe the actual actual suspect,

310
00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,600
Speaker 1: is time time time to figure out who the suspects

311
00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:47,880
Speaker 1: like name actually is. And this is this is one

312
00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:50,040
Speaker 1: of the one of the harder things but often you

313
00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:51,720
Speaker 1: can have a lot of help in ways that you

314
00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:56,200
Speaker 1: might not expect. Um Often, once you can get a

315
00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:58,760
Speaker 1: good picture of someone you know, it'd be like, yes, yes,

316
00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,440
Speaker 1: this this is actually the dude. Once it gets shared enough,

317
00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:04,080
Speaker 1: often somebody knows who this is already. You know, the

318
00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:06,960
Speaker 1: internet is a pretty big place. I believe the first

319
00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,080
Speaker 1: I believe the first person to actually like like I

320
00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:12,560
Speaker 1: was the I was the person to like prove online

321
00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,200
Speaker 1: who who Kyle written that kind right knows was the shooter.

322
00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,280
Speaker 1: The first person to actually tie Kyle's name to the

323
00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:23,560
Speaker 1: shooter UM was a neighbor of his on Facebook. Um.

324
00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:27,960
Speaker 1: They they saw pictures of the shooter on on Facebook

325
00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:30,360
Speaker 1: and said, hey, I think this I think I recognized

326
00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:33,440
Speaker 1: this guy. I think I think this is my neighbor. UM.

327
00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:35,600
Speaker 1: So often, once you start, once you have like enough

328
00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,480
Speaker 1: pictures and those can spread, people will feel to find names.

329
00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:40,919
Speaker 1: It isn't as hard as you would think that. The

330
00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:45,160
Speaker 1: hard part is is finding out what personal connections are

331
00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:47,920
Speaker 1: making those links and finding out where where where those are.

332
00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,560
Speaker 1: But stuff, stuff spreads in a weird way, and right

333
00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,200
Speaker 1: for this, you know, I find I was able to

334
00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,399
Speaker 1: prove that it was Kyle pretty quickly. Um, for a

335
00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:00,560
Speaker 1: few reasons. So after I was doing my my my

336
00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:03,560
Speaker 1: clothing comparisons to figure out this is to prove, like

337
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,400
Speaker 1: he said, this is the actual person who who did

338
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,960
Speaker 1: these things. Um. The other thing I I found that

339
00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:13,320
Speaker 1: was not it was not viral at all, um, but

340
00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:16,480
Speaker 1: just because I was digging through so much stuff, was

341
00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:22,080
Speaker 1: this meme shared by uh I by some like small

342
00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,760
Speaker 1: boogaloo account. Um. It was a picture of the shooter.

343
00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:31,359
Speaker 1: UH compare right beside a collection of Blue Lives Matter

344
00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:35,000
Speaker 1: pictures of someone who looks kind of similar, linking to

345
00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,399
Speaker 1: a Facebook page or no, not not linking it was

346
00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:40,480
Speaker 1: it was it was screenshot from the Facebook page. And

347
00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:42,560
Speaker 1: I can tell because of the font and it was,

348
00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:46,320
Speaker 1: like I said, like a written house's photos. So this

349
00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:48,040
Speaker 1: was the first This is the first thing I saw

350
00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:52,439
Speaker 1: on the like buried deep inside like Twitter's, Twitter's, Twitter's images.

351
00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,080
Speaker 1: But by using all of like these a hashtag terms

352
00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:56,840
Speaker 1: was this meme and and and and then the meme

353
00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,840
Speaker 1: said so y'all think he's still a boogaloo. No, no

354
00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:01,919
Speaker 1: he wasn't. But because because of all of the pro

355
00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,479
Speaker 1: police stuff, because Google is generally are not not that

356
00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:15,040
Speaker 1: fond fond of police. Yeah so so yeah, um, given given.

357
00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:16,959
Speaker 1: So you know, if someone was to look at this,

358
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,720
Speaker 1: you know, look at this meme itself, he's like, okay,

359
00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:22,560
Speaker 1: you know, the job was done. You know, information, This

360
00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:27,600
Speaker 1: dude looks vaguely similar ish to the guy on this

361
00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:32,200
Speaker 1: written house Facebook. Um, the gun looks kind of similar

362
00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:34,439
Speaker 1: because one of the pictures of the Facebook was was

363
00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:38,320
Speaker 1: a guy holding was a guy holding in a r um.

364
00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,399
Speaker 1: But you know, just something looking similar or even holding

365
00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,159
Speaker 1: a similar gun in one picture from a Facebook account.

366
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,600
Speaker 1: That's not enough to be sure about publishing a positive

367
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,320
Speaker 1: I d that there's's there's there's no actual really, there's

368
00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:53,320
Speaker 1: no like definitive proof there because honestly, if I was

369
00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:55,000
Speaker 1: to look at these two guys faces, they don't look

370
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,840
Speaker 1: incredibly similar because faces can distore it with lighting and

371
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,400
Speaker 1: compression that it's it's it's. It can be really difficult.

372
00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:04,200
Speaker 1: And this is where you know, trying to idea shooter

373
00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,720
Speaker 1: is hard and requires complex judgment calls and posting inaccurate

374
00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:11,239
Speaker 1: information or like incomplete information um can have you know,

375
00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:13,399
Speaker 1: extremely harmful effects. And there's there's a lot a lot

376
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:15,879
Speaker 1: of examples of this happening in the past. You know,

377
00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,439
Speaker 1: probably the biggest example, or the most notorious one of

378
00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:24,240
Speaker 1: false identification is the Boston bombing incident. Um. So, you know,

379
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,280
Speaker 1: right after the right after thirteen bombing, you know, thousands

380
00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:29,800
Speaker 1: of users on sites like Reddit and four chan became

381
00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:33,520
Speaker 1: combing through footage to try to identify potential suspects. Screen

382
00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,960
Speaker 1: Caps of the people they deemed suspicious went viral online

383
00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:40,879
Speaker 1: on on various social media sites. Unfortunately, the slew thing

384
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,920
Speaker 1: work done on four Chan and Reddit was incredibly shoddy

385
00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,080
Speaker 1: um and seemingly had way more to do with like

386
00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:50,119
Speaker 1: racial paranoia than actual detective work and evidence gathering. The

387
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:54,719
Speaker 1: New York Post subsequently published a picture on front page

388
00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,960
Speaker 1: that that originated on Reddit that users had declared that

389
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,280
Speaker 1: that was showing the two suspects with without doing any

390
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:05,040
Speaker 1: further verification. So it's it's it's real bad how stuff

391
00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,159
Speaker 1: can spread from me out like this that's completely unverified

392
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,280
Speaker 1: to you know, a newspaper, even as one as unreputable

393
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,040
Speaker 1: as the Post, that's still a very popular paper. The

394
00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,240
Speaker 1: Post also claimed that the law enforcement we're looking for

395
00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:21,400
Speaker 1: those two to uh two individuals in that picture, um.

396
00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:23,359
Speaker 1: One of the one of the people identified by the

397
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,480
Speaker 1: post was harassed online. UM police police later told him

398
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,119
Speaker 1: just to delete his social media accounts entirely because there

399
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,119
Speaker 1: was no use at that point. UM. When the FBI

400
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,800
Speaker 1: did officially release photos of the unnamed suspects, Reddit users

401
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,960
Speaker 1: again false he identified these people? What one of the

402
00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,560
Speaker 1: people they false he identified went went missing for weeks

403
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,840
Speaker 1: prior UM his his family received media inquiries about the false,

404
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:50,640
Speaker 1: unverified rumors of their son's involvement. UM, and rumors of

405
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:54,040
Speaker 1: of of involvement were spread by reporters from Politico News,

406
00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:58,800
Speaker 1: Squeak Newsweek, NBC News, and BuzzFeed. UM. Eight days after

407
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:02,000
Speaker 1: the bombing, this guy was actual does have the bombing.

408
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:03,720
Speaker 1: This guy was actually found dead and his family said

409
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,680
Speaker 1: it was a suicide. UM. It was not not one

410
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:10,119
Speaker 1: of the shooters, not one of the bombers. UM. Again

411
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,520
Speaker 1: why even more than the tactics you could use to

412
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:17,359
Speaker 1: try and you know, verify things online, the most useful

413
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:19,760
Speaker 1: thing you can take out of this is if there

414
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,560
Speaker 1: is a mass shooting or other active violence and people

415
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,480
Speaker 1: on social media are saying it is this person, don't

416
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,159
Speaker 1: share it. Don't just don't share it. Just wait, especially

417
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:30,840
Speaker 1: in sharing it if they have don't have anything to

418
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:32,320
Speaker 1: verify this at all. So yeah, like I'm not gonna

419
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:36,600
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna don't again, that is the overwhelming thing.

420
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,160
Speaker 1: We were not gonna you know. That's why you know

421
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:45,200
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna share this Kyle rittenhouse um boogloomy because

422
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 1: there's no proof for it. It's it's not there now. Eventually,

423
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 1: after digging, I would realize that this meme comes from

424
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,600
Speaker 1: his neighbor saying that she thinks the suspect is him.

425
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,439
Speaker 1: So that's that's what this meme was created. Um but

426
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,639
Speaker 1: still there there there was no no proof for it,

427
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 1: so I don't I didn't share it. So all the

428
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:07,479
Speaker 1: Boston bombing stuff was like going through my mind as

429
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:09,879
Speaker 1: I know found this and was trying to dig for

430
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,280
Speaker 1: dig from my details. So yeah, I knew that I

431
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:14,879
Speaker 1: could not post a name on the social media um

432
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 1: or any info until I until I could prove it

433
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:19,399
Speaker 1: like without a shadow but doubt that this is the

434
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,199
Speaker 1: same person because a lot a lot of times it

435
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 1: is possible. It just requires work in time, you know,

436
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 1: And a big part of doing this on Twitter is

437
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:28,120
Speaker 1: like you want to get it out fast, so you're

438
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:29,679
Speaker 1: the first person to do it. So that you know

439
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,920
Speaker 1: you can go vital on your thread of identifying this killer,

440
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,439
Speaker 1: and like, no, that's not the reason to do image verification.

441
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,199
Speaker 1: It's not to go viral on a thread. It's because

442
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,679
Speaker 1: whenever that's your goal you're gonna do, you're gonna do

443
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,240
Speaker 1: shitty fast work that is gonna end up causing some

444
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 1: kind of horrible consequence, like in the case the Boston bombing.

445
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 1: And to be even extra clear, the primary use for

446
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,639
Speaker 1: this that kind of what you're teaching people image verification,

447
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 1: which is something that like like Belling Cat, which is

448
00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,720
Speaker 1: has been like kind of a part time employer of mine.

449
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,399
Speaker 1: Um is an open source journalism collective that's broken some

450
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,359
Speaker 1: of the biggest stories in the last couple of years.

451
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,640
Speaker 1: And in the classes we teach a class on image verification.

452
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,159
Speaker 1: And the point is just whenever someone is sharing a

453
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,399
Speaker 1: piece of what is like supposedly breaking news based on

454
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 1: video or images that have been taken at the side

455
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 1: of a whatever, image verification tactics can help you to

456
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 1: know whether or not it's whether or not either it's

457
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 1: true or false, but also just whether or not the

458
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,199
Speaker 1: image the information they're presenting gives you any reason to

459
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 1: believe it, like it's you might be full of shit,

460
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:40,199
Speaker 1: like that's super important. Yeah, Like there's there's a thing

461
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 1: that happens like and any time there's something that looks

462
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 1: like a war starting. There's like this video of a

463
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 1: bombing from two thousand fourteen in Gaza that goes around

464
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 1: it's like every time. Yeah, um, there's there's actually five

465
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,879
Speaker 1: or six different kinds of things that are like that Chris,

466
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 1: that are like, oh this is There's actually footage from

467
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 1: like a rush in video game that people keep keeps

468
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 1: getting like mistaken for action combat footage and it's like, no,

469
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,159
Speaker 1: it's fucking from a video game. This has been on,

470
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:11,680
Speaker 1: this has been three wars now. There's this famous footage

471
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,879
Speaker 1: of like a fucking um an air soft battle at

472
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 1: night with glowing with soft pets with the glowing pellets

473
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 1: and it it kind of it kind of looks because

474
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:22,399
Speaker 1: it's black and white and not a great camera, it

475
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 1: kind of looks like tracer fire. And it's there's like

476
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: three Wars that people have said like, look, this is

477
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 1: still combat footage from it happens all the time. And

478
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:34,119
Speaker 1: again grant account to follow is a hoax I on Twitter.

479
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,120
Speaker 1: They do really good work pointing out just like kind

480
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 1: of more like more like less high stakes kind of

481
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 1: image image verification stuff. Um So, but before I get

482
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 1: into the actual like verification work of like proving, Hey,

483
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 1: I can actually prove that that by by not just

484
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:52,920
Speaker 1: someone's face, I can prove that this shooter is the

485
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 1: same guy from from from the Facebook page. Um, I'll

486
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 1: explain that next first short short ad break and then

487
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,440
Speaker 1: we will fit finish up with this actually will proving section.

488
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:13,360
Speaker 1: Yeah you know who is not Kyle? Oh wow, you

489
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 1: have really dropped the ball out all of the transitions today. Yeah.

490
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: I am not proud of myself or my place in

491
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 1: society at the moment. Um. Here's ads, We're back. I

492
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 1: feel terrible. Garrison. And So, even even though the booloo

493
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 1: meme was not hard evidence, uh it did. It did

494
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 1: provide a lead. So after seeing the meme, I did

495
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 1: the first most obvious thing that I could see was

496
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 1: compare the gun in in the two frames. Uh they

497
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 1: do look similar. Uh they're not. They're not identical. Uh

498
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 1: the optics are different for each rifle. Um. But the

499
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 1: rest of it, but the stock, the grip um and

500
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,679
Speaker 1: the barrel do do seem do seem to be do

501
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,360
Speaker 1: seem to be, if not, if not identical, at least

502
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 1: extremely similar. Again, still not enough to make a positive

503
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,159
Speaker 1: idea on an individual basis, Like this person is its person,

504
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:09,640
Speaker 1: So that the next step is to scour the actual

505
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 1: Facebook account itself that is alluded to in this meme

506
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 1: and see what I can find there. The goal obviously

507
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 1: being to find statements or pictures that will tie this

508
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 1: person in the images of the shooter to the person

509
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:29,399
Speaker 1: on the account. So that's you know, clothing, location, intention,

510
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 1: you know, all these types of things that could tie

511
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: the pictures of the shooter to the pictures of person

512
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 1: on on on this account. Um So Kyra no houses

513
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 1: old public Facebook profile was mainly made up of Blue

514
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,719
Speaker 1: Lives Matter and pro police images going back as far

515
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 1: as um with a few uh then recent pictures of

516
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 1: him holding his Air fifteen style rifle. Uh those the

517
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,679
Speaker 1: the the rifle pictures were like from June. The shooting

518
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 1: happened in late August. Um it appears I think it

519
00:27:58,040 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 1: came out in the trial that he got his rifle

520
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 1: around like may um So, yeah, a lot of a

521
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of pro police stuff, a lot

522
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 1: of them blue lining blue lives, matters type things UM.

523
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,360
Speaker 1: His public his his public page is is relatively sparse

524
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,440
Speaker 1: UM and there was no public friends list to look through. UM.

525
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 1: One one noteworthy piece of information was that he did

526
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 1: he did list another name for himself as Kyle Lewis

527
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 1: believe his mother's maiden name. Sure but uh but even so,

528
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:30,400
Speaker 1: even though I wasn't able to view a friends list

529
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,399
Speaker 1: and there wasn't many public posts, uh, this is his

530
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 1: page is by no means a dead end. I could

531
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 1: still see everyone that has commented on, shared, or liked

532
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 1: his public posts because like so, he did not have

533
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 1: he he did not many have any pictures himself on

534
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 1: his page that that I could use for verification. He

535
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 1: didn't have like not nothing that I could tie to

536
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 1: the shooting besides the actual guns. So not not tons

537
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 1: of useful not tons of useful stuff. But there's perhaps

538
00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 1: there's still other other leads to look through. Like every

539
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 1: one who's liked, shared, or uh commented on his posts,

540
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: So I opened up new tabs for every single person

541
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: that interacted with Kyle's posts. While looking over their pages,

542
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 1: I was searching to see if any of them had

543
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 1: listed Kyle as a relative with a focus on anyone

544
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 1: with the last name of written House or Lewis um

545
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 1: and and you know, ideally was looking forward to see

546
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 1: if anyone had pictures of Kyle or someone who seems

547
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: to be Kyle. Uh. One post from May eighteen eventually

548
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 1: eventually proved useful. One comment read, Kyle, you sure do

549
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 1: look like a Louis. So there's the alternate last name.

550
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: And two people had liked that comment, Kyle himself and

551
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 1: and uh and someone who is his mom which or

552
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: would would later find out is his mom. Um. Uh.

553
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 1: So she said that lived. She said that she lived

554
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 1: in uh is it anatok Illinois? Probably Antioch, Illinois, which

555
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 1: matches uh with Kyle's uh Illinois based pro police posts.

556
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: He made a lot of like Chicago Blue Lives Matter posts,

557
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 1: so I assumed that Kyle was from Illinois. And also, um,

558
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 1: uh Antioch is that you said whatever Antioch to to

559
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 1: Wiscon's Antioch to Kenosha is only like three minute drive,

560
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: so that is also like, okay, that's that's that's that's

561
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 1: pretty close. That is that is doable? Um. So it

562
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 1: was the next I went. I went through a lot

563
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: of the relatives pages, but I'm gonna focus just on

564
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 1: the person who I found out who was, um, Kyle's mom,

565
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 1: because they're the one that had the most useful information, right.

566
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 1: A lot of other information I looked through just didn't

567
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,239
Speaker 1: turn out to be useful, right, So I'm not not

568
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: including all of that here. Um uh. One post from

569
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 1: from uh Wendy's mom uh featured a younger Kyle wearing

570
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,719
Speaker 1: a police outfit. Um. I'm sure people have seen this

571
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 1: sure online before. I think I was probably I was.

572
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 1: I was probably the first person to share this photo

573
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 1: of Kyle in this in this younger Kyle wearing this

574
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 1: this police this police costume, an unbelievably cringe e photo,

575
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 1: like the side of the fact that he took two lives,

576
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 1: Like just yeah, I mean we all have photos we

577
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 1: took when while an r OTC. Like so yeah, ideally

578
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 1: we would we would give There's actually there's actually a

579
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 1: lot more of these photos. There's photos of him touring

580
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 1: so this is this stuff. I also found that night

581
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 1: photos of him like touring a target with police as

582
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 1: he's in a police uniform. He was part of like

583
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 1: a police Young Cadets program. He was he was like twelve. Um,

584
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 1: so that's where he got this outfit, and he like

585
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 1: tagged around with police for like a day or something,

586
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 1: and this photos of him like in a target with police.

587
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 1: Even when I was like a shitty right wing kid,

588
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 1: that sounded like a nightmare. So so yeah, so Kyle's

589
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 1: the person who I figured out was Kyle's mom posted

590
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 1: this this photo of of her and Kyle, which which

591
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 1: Kyle liked, and then in another picture of another picture

592
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 1: from from Kyle's mom, I found, uh, it's a family

593
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 1: picture including Kyle wearing what I would say is like

594
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 1: an army green shirt kind of similar, but it's a

595
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: green shirt like I have. I have shirts that are

596
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: pretty similar to that. I'm not gonna that's not gonna

597
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 1: be anything so super definitive until we got there's one

598
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 1: one picture that that proved to be much much more,

599
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 1: much more useful U of Kyle on or someone who

600
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: assumed was Kyle. You don't, you don't you don't actually

601
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 1: see his face, but he is wearing horribly cringe e

602
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 1: American flag crocs, which which Kyle, which which so and

603
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 1: and and on. On Kyle's page, there was also pictures

604
00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,239
Speaker 1: of him wearing those same crocks. So like even even

605
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 1: though I can't see the face, the crocs the same

606
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 1: probably the same guy. He's also wearing a tan baseball cap. Um.

607
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 1: And on this I can actually see that it has

608
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 1: an American flag on the front of the cap, which

609
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: I did not notice on anything else before. So that's,

610
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 1: you know, that's something different. But again not that that's

611
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 1: that's not that's not that's not like a red flag.

612
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 1: That's just you know, a thing to a thing of note.

613
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 1: Um because the bay the baseball cap is tan um

614
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 1: and it has like white mesh on the sides. Um.

615
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 1: The one. The one thing I did, I did make

616
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: one post before I actually did any kind of I

617
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 1: claiming to do I identity stuff. I did ask my

618
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: Twitter followers if there's any pictures of the back of

619
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 1: the Shooters cap um, and I got them to to

620
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: send me those, and then I got one picture of

621
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 1: of the back that actually has uh. I couldn't see, like, Okay,

622
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,479
Speaker 1: the back of the Shooters cap also has the flag

623
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 1: on it, so I was able to actually show that. Okay,

624
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 1: so the baseball cap on the back of it, uh.

625
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 1: But they're both tann baseball caps. They both have whitemush

626
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 1: on the side they both have to have an American flag.

627
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 1: And then I got another picture that was even closer

628
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 1: that showed a tear on the brim of the hat.

629
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 1: And if you zoom in on one of the beach pictures,

630
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 1: you could also see a tear on the same position

631
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 1: on the hat. So this is this hat? Is the

632
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 1: hat is the same hat? The hat was definitely it

633
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 1: was definitely in both locations. So at this point, based

634
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: on the gun, based on the hat, based on the

635
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 1: location being very close to kenosha um and being closed

636
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 1: on the rough facial similarities, um, there was there was

637
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:47,319
Speaker 1: enough enough to enough to to um enough to put

638
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 1: put stuff together to be like, Okay, I I think

639
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 1: I think this is this is probably this is probably

640
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: fine in saying I think this is probably the dude. Um,

641
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 1: So at this point I wasn't wasn't again, I'm not

642
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 1: gonna post this immediately, and I'm not going to post

643
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 1: something by saying this is who it is without providing

644
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,760
Speaker 1: the evidence. So instead of like running a thread tweet

645
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:09,839
Speaker 1: by tweet, I read the whole thread out and then

646
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 1: tweet the whole thread at the same time. UM. So,

647
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 1: so I I put to the thread documenting my relevant stuff. Um.

648
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 1: I I wrote the first eight posts the same time

649
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 1: and posted them together with all the evidence of uploaded

650
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 1: um and then and then uh, as I was writing

651
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:27,399
Speaker 1: the threat, I came across another piece of evidence. There

652
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,240
Speaker 1: was one I was going through one of the live

653
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 1: streams of of that night from a channel called the

654
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 1: Rundown Live, which I've not heard anything of before or since. Then. Um,

655
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 1: but you know one of the many streamers that were

656
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:43,720
Speaker 1: out um, and you can see you can see Kyle

657
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 1: inside the frame and then like pans away, but the

658
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 1: people are still talking. Um. So so Kyle, Kyle is

659
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 1: actually off camera now, um, but he I think someone

660
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 1: like asks him his name and he and the person

661
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 1: who I think is Kyle replies Kyle. Now, of course

662
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 1: it's off camera, so it's not you can't be totally sure.

663
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: There's there's enough context clues and that plus only other evidence.

664
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:07,719
Speaker 1: I'm like, Okay, this is enough to add to the

665
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 1: thread because it again it's it's not enough proof by itself,

666
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:14,240
Speaker 1: but it combined with everything else, completes a much fuller picture.

667
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 1: So I posted my like niner yeah, like eight or

668
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 1: nine thing thread on being able to prove its Kyle

669
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,839
Speaker 1: via you know, comparing stuff like the gun, uh, the hat,

670
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 1: the shirt and demonstrating my work tracking across Facebook and

671
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 1: how it's able to like link these two people together. Um.

672
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 1: Twenty two minutes after I posted the threat identifying Kyle Kosha,

673
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 1: police announced that they were that they were starting an

674
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 1: active investigation. UM. I soon added a court document to

675
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 1: my thread about a traffic violation by someone named cow

676
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,480
Speaker 1: written house, filed a few days before the shooting. The

677
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 1: traffic violation thing also included stuff like a dress, which

678
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:57,720
Speaker 1: I I blacked out the addressed for that just because

679
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 1: sharing the sharing for reasons I'll soon explain. Because again,

680
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 1: if it's if it's a it's a track of violation,

681
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,320
Speaker 1: if people really want it, they can find it themselves,

682
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 1: right It's it's not making impossible to find it. And

683
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 1: this was able to confirm it. It was in the

684
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:15,240
Speaker 1: same location um antioch Um. And also this this proved

685
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 1: that Kyle was seventeen at the time. Uh. This is

686
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 1: how we knew that he was seventeen years old at

687
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 1: the time of the shooting was because of this traffic

688
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 1: violation document found online. So the the address on the

689
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 1: violation document was the same one I had linked to

690
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 1: Kyle's mom by doing other like ocean address work, I

691
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 1: was able to find out where what what her address was. Um,

692
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 1: so so yeah, that was That was most of my

693
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:49,359
Speaker 1: work that night. Uh. It took about I don't know,

694
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 1: like tooh maybe you know it. It's hard. It's hard

695
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 1: to break up. Uh, it's timing it. It took about

696
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 1: half an hour to get from the boogaloom me to

697
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 1: finding the matching baseball cap on on Kyle's mom's Facebook page,

698
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 1: about another half hour to write out the thread, and

699
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 1: you know, about an hour of work previous to that

700
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 1: about you know, trying to find out the actual you know,

701
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,920
Speaker 1: footage and categorize it. And Okay, this is the clothing

702
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 1: he's wearing. Here's the clothes I I need to look

703
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 1: for on social media right see see see see if

704
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: I can find these shoes, these pants, this, this shirt,

705
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 1: this hat, this bag, that kind of stuff. Um and

706
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 1: I was able to find enough of those items to

707
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 1: make it pretty pretty clear that it was it was

708
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 1: you know linked. Um and that makes you Garrison, one

709
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 1: of the first people in the world to get to

710
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 1: no way more about kyle rittenhouse than you ever wanted

711
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 1: to know. A lot more. This nightmare has been going

712
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:53,399
Speaker 1: on longer for you. Yeah, and so, and I want

713
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 1: to know a few other ways to do image verifications,

714
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 1: specifically on Kyle that that I didn't do, but other

715
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 1: people did after after I had after I said, hey,

716
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 1: this is part of the guy. So afterwards people found

717
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:08,239
Speaker 1: other kind of evidence on Kyle's TikTok um and snapchat.

718
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 1: So it turns out Kyle was snapchatting his night in Wisconsin, um,

719
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 1: which we would find out later. So he was that

720
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:20,800
Speaker 1: he was snapchatting from kenosha Um and Garrison. First off,

721
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 1: I do feel as the representative of zoomers in in

722
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:26,839
Speaker 1: this call. Why are you Why are you guys all

723
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: using the snapchats? Huh? I don't use I don't use

724
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 1: the snapchats. Um. Well, I'm making you answer for the

725
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 1: crimes of your generation, the crimes like the snap Now. Well,

726
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,799
Speaker 1: technically speaking, I have one friend who I only talked

727
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:43,799
Speaker 1: to you through Snapchat, and we both only use it

728
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:46,240
Speaker 1: for that and we don't know why we use snapchat. Yeah,

729
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:48,399
Speaker 1: there's a few people who are like snapchat, people who

730
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 1: only text or snapchat, and I don't. I don't get it. Yeah,

731
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 1: except neither of us are like that. We just specifically

732
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 1: there's got a signal anyway, So yeah, the Snapchat, there's

733
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 1: also uh TikTok Um. There was a footage of of

734
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 1: Kyle attending a Trump rally at TikTok Also him like

735
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:10,880
Speaker 1: assembling and testing out his gun was on a Snapchat.

736
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 1: I believe eclips that it were also shared on TikTok

737
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 1: so I could have got a lot more closer details

738
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 1: of the gun if if I looked on if if

739
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 1: on Snapchat or or TikTok Um, and I think, if

740
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 1: this is this is a good advice that I've taken

741
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,360
Speaker 1: since then, and for other people looking to do this stuff.

742
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 1: If if a suspect looks as young, um, you know,

743
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:32,920
Speaker 1: Snapchat and TikTok might be or and and Instagram might

744
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 1: be apps that are worth we are worth checking out

745
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 1: for information as opposed to like Facebook. Right. I lucky,

746
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:41,360
Speaker 1: lucky enough there was enough stuff on Facebook on this

747
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 1: instance typically probably because you know, Kyle's family was conservative

748
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,319
Speaker 1: so and he was conservative, so higher chance of being

749
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 1: on Facebook there. But you know, in general, if someone's

750
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:55,320
Speaker 1: younger and maybe look on younger apps. Um. But yeah,

751
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 1: so you know, good thing to think about you know,

752
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:02,440
Speaker 1: whenever these like chaotic panic moments happen, you know, missifforation

753
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 1: can spread very very quickly. UM. Cannot stress enough how

754
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 1: dangerous and I responsible it is when a suspect is

755
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 1: named without proper verification. UM. You know. Uh, last last September,

756
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 1: uh Ian Miles Chung falsely identified a suspect in the

757
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:20,800
Speaker 1: shooting of two l A Police officers. Of this resulted

758
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,439
Speaker 1: in the falsely accused got a man and receiving many

759
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 1: death threats online. I think emails chalnging to this like

760
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 1: again a few months later. He he was doing this

761
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 1: a lot. Last year he was doing it. He was

762
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 1: really bad about trying to identify people. Um. But you know,

763
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 1: doing solid solidarification work is possible, but extreme caution needs

764
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 1: to be taken. UM. I need to be very mindful

765
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 1: of the consequences of your actions when when you're doing

766
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,319
Speaker 1: this work. Yeah. I also want to put out Garrison

767
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 1: is very good at this. That that's why it took

768
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 1: two hours and a half hours. It's going to take

769
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 1: it takes a lot longer. Yeah, Like honestly, like I

770
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:55,359
Speaker 1: was like it. Finding Kyle was just the right mix

771
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 1: of things in one moment. Often it doesn't often it

772
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 1: doesn't go that fast, and it doesn't need to be

773
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 1: right like a big The problem is that if people

774
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:05,359
Speaker 1: think about it needing to be like a fast paced thing,

775
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 1: that's where that's where the mistakes happen. I was just

776
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:10,880
Speaker 1: lucky to have enough like dominoes fall in the right

777
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 1: place too. I identify how the night of having having

778
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 1: his neighbor say, hey, this guy looks similar to my neighbor,

779
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 1: extremely useful in in in in the long run, right

780
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 1: like that that happened faster than that happens in a

781
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 1: lot of cases, and so that really accelerated things. Sometimes

782
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 1: it will be easy sometimes like a good example of

783
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 1: when it's harder. We have a decent amount of footage

784
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:34,280
Speaker 1: about the individual who placed bombs outside of the Capital

785
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 1: bomber before the sixth um. That person has not been

786
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 1: identified and the FBI seems to have no goddamn cluse.

787
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 1: But also what they were way more intentional, and they

788
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 1: were smart. Whoever they are, they're very capable. They were

789
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 1: the only thing that we have on them is their shoes. Basically,

790
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 1: those are those are kind of the polls of this

791
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,279
Speaker 1: right on one like that with with Rittenhouse, you've got

792
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 1: this situation where it's like all of the information you

793
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 1: need to identify the is there openly online. UM. And

794
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,920
Speaker 1: part of ops sex if you're doing things that are

795
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 1: crimes UM is to make sure that is to limit

796
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:12,360
Speaker 1: that that that whatever it is you are going to

797
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 1: to the to the crimes in UM. There nothing exists

798
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,279
Speaker 1: on the Internet that connects that to your name and face,

799
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:20,879
Speaker 1: and that that doesn't That doesn't always mean black block.

800
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:24,360
Speaker 1: That can mean other clothing, especially if you've been photographed

801
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 1: in black block a book. I think like if you

802
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 1: look at if you look at UM, the guy who

803
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 1: dropped off bombs at January six, he's not wearing black

804
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,360
Speaker 1: block because black block draws attention. He's wearing like grays.

805
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 1: He's he's wearing that guy that well, that individual person

806
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 1: is either a former FED or former Special Forces. They

807
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 1: were very capable, leaning towards FED who showed up in

808
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 1: clothing they had never weren't worn before and paid for

809
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:55,879
Speaker 1: used in cash, probably from a variety of places. UM.

810
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:59,280
Speaker 1: That clothing was burned as soon as they got away.

811
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:02,319
Speaker 1: They were of the state as early as it was

812
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 1: possible to do so, plant them and then immediately get

813
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,840
Speaker 1: out like, um. And you know, by the time the Capitol,

814
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: right by the time their bombs had been found, they

815
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:12,319
Speaker 1: were they were if they were smartly gone, you know,

816
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 1: like that's how anyway whatever, Like Like oftentimes it can

817
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:20,800
Speaker 1: be if someone knows what they're doing, this, this process

818
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:22,799
Speaker 1: can be a lot harder, like in the case of

819
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 1: the people of of the guy who left the bombs

820
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:28,359
Speaker 1: at the capitol. Um. You know, Kyle, it was not

821
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 1: you know, wasn't wearing much identified clothing, wasn't even wearing

822
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:34,799
Speaker 1: a mask because COVID was for cox. Um. So you know,

823
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 1: there's a lot of these things that that made this process, um,

824
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:40,520
Speaker 1: you know, easier than a lot of a lot of

825
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 1: other verifications. But like I said, there still was a

826
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 1: lot of false ideas going around that night. UM, and

827
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 1: so it kind of still happens. I'm kind of on

828
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 1: the fence myself as to whether or not it would

829
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 1: have been safer like for our country or the society

830
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:56,719
Speaker 1: or whatever you want to call it. If um, like,

831
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 1: how much more damage or less damage would have been

832
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 1: done if Kyle Rittenhouse had been someone who showed up

833
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:06,799
Speaker 1: in impeccable like clothing that he could not be identified

834
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 1: from fucking ran off and was never caught, and we

835
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 1: just knew there was the shooting of protesters in Kenosha

836
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:16,279
Speaker 1: um by somebody. UM Like, I don't know how much

837
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:18,760
Speaker 1: better or worse that is for society if that happens.

838
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm thinking about terrible things. But sorry,

839
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 1: first off, I want to apologize. Sometimes talking about this

840
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 1: stuff winds up seeming like advice for how to commit crimes.

841
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 1: That's not the intent. It's just when you talk about

842
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 1: what makes something difficult to identify, your kind of by

843
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:37,680
Speaker 1: default talking about like here's how to here's how to

844
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:41,400
Speaker 1: get commit a crime and get away with it, um.

845
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:42,919
Speaker 1: And it's the kind of thing like if you're doing

846
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:45,360
Speaker 1: verification work, one of the things that helps is to

847
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: kind of put yourself in the mindset of somebody who, Okay,

848
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:51,319
Speaker 1: if I'm in this situation and I do this, um,

849
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 1: what are the decisions that I might make afterwards? Um?

850
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:57,959
Speaker 1: And you can kind of try to uh think through

851
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:00,319
Speaker 1: this person. Like it can be helpful, especially if you're

852
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,840
Speaker 1: trying to like track someone through a day. So you know,

853
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:05,160
Speaker 1: someone was at this point at a protest at X

854
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 1: hour because they shot somebody, Um, you know, think through. Okay,

855
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 1: what else happened that day? Where their other protests? Where

856
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:14,279
Speaker 1: their other gatherings like or is this one in a

857
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 1: series of events? Can I go look for you know,

858
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 1: videos from other things in the area that this person

859
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 1: might have also been at and might have worn the

860
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:26,839
Speaker 1: same clothing. Um, there's anyway. Image verification is fun, catch

861
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 1: the fever. It is. It is a fun thing to do.

862
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:31,320
Speaker 1: It's good to if if if you're not able to

863
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 1: attend in person demos for like like physical reasons or whatever,

864
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 1: or like mental reasons, doing the stuff from home is

865
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:40,320
Speaker 1: is another way of getting involved, especially already out tracking

866
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 1: down bad people after they after they do bad things. Yeah,

867
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 1: so you can, you know, if you want to learn

868
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:52,320
Speaker 1: more about this with you know, the benefit of also

869
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,959
Speaker 1: visual aids um belling cat has if you just type

870
00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 1: image verification belling Cat. There's gunners and advanced guides to verification. Um.

871
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:06,759
Speaker 1: There's talk about like manual reverse image search tools and

872
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:10,799
Speaker 1: like how well they work. There's quizzes, So go go

873
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 1: there if you if you find this interesting, Um, it

874
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 1: can be quite a hoot. Um. But you know what

875
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 1: else is quite a hoot? Ending a goddamn podcast which

876
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 1: I'm doing. Now we're done, goodbye. Welcome to America. It's

877
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 1: not great. Here's a podcast, right, this is this is

878
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:46,480
Speaker 1: it could happen here the podcast Welcome it is. If

879
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 1: you're an international listener and you're not American, that was

880
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 1: really get the fuck off of our podcast, just like

881
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:54,920
Speaker 1: left people all like, are you going to do one

882
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 1: for every other country? I think they're being rude for

883
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:00,959
Speaker 1: barging in the internet is clearly American soil. I would

884
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:04,320
Speaker 1: pay good money for a wacko things. But with Roberts

885
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:09,800
Speaker 1: saying all the all the countries of the world, well,

886
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 1: you know what you need to do in order to

887
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 1: be able to pay good money for something Garrison, you

888
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 1: need to you need to. You need to get money

889
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 1: by by working well to be born rich. But if

890
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:22,880
Speaker 1: you're not born rich, you have to work. And a

891
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 1: lot of people are saying what if we did, what

892
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:29,040
Speaker 1: if we didn't? And now they have a subreddit and

893
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 1: that's what we're talking about today anti work. Uh, not

894
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:35,200
Speaker 1: just the subreddit, but that's why we're talking about it

895
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 1: today because the anti work subreddit has grown hugely um

896
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 1: and it's got like a milli it's or it's it's

897
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 1: like doubled. It's been around for years. It's more than doubled.

898
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:48,359
Speaker 1: It's it's almost. It's almost. Yeah, it's it's it's well,

899
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 1: well I'll have the numbers for later. Yeah, yeah, okay, great.

900
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:53,399
Speaker 1: Um So, Garrison, why don't you kick us off? Now

901
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:56,120
Speaker 1: that I've let everyone know what to expect, I will

902
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:59,760
Speaker 1: stop working um in solidarity with the anti work movement.

903
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 1: Thanks Robert um. So. Yeah, if the past few months,

904
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 1: if you're anything like us um and and if you're

905
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:09,879
Speaker 1: online in the same ways that we are, you've you've

906
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 1: probably seen like a flurry of posts and screenshots depicting

907
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:18,360
Speaker 1: text conversations between like an employee and their boss. Typically,

908
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 1: the boss like asks them to come in when they

909
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:21,840
Speaker 1: said they were going to have to have to be

910
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:23,600
Speaker 1: have to have having to have time off or something.

911
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 1: The employee objects, the bosston gets mad and makes threats

912
00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:30,239
Speaker 1: and demands the employee be a better team player or

913
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 1: some bullshit like that. Um and and then like the

914
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:36,279
Speaker 1: employee said something like, well you know what, actually I quit,

915
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:39,239
Speaker 1: good luck filling the shift now by and then the

916
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 1: boss like pleads that the now former employee comes back

917
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 1: and offers like concessions and end of screenshots. So pretty

918
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:49,319
Speaker 1: soon this type of like screenshotted text conversation became like

919
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 1: a meme format with with people joking and obviously like

920
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 1: staging fake ones as well. Uh, you know, similar to

921
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 1: the scene I just described. But but but by all accounts,

922
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:03,360
Speaker 1: this trend started incredibly like sincerely with with genuine text

923
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:07,680
Speaker 1: conversations showcasing like worker abuse um and and uh you know,

924
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:11,760
Speaker 1: bosses being unreasonable and cruel um and some people putting

925
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:14,720
Speaker 1: their jobs just to stand up for themselves and um,

926
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:16,400
Speaker 1: all the stuff is kind of tied up in the

927
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:20,240
Speaker 1: worker shortage kind of miss the great resignation as as

928
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 1: a lot of pundit yes, yeah, people of people resigning.

929
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:25,800
Speaker 1: And then you know a lot of like big companies

930
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:29,880
Speaker 1: complaining about worker shortages um and and. Central to this

931
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 1: like text conversation online kind of meme trend thing and

932
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:38,720
Speaker 1: and and employee resignations is a sub credit called anti work.

933
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:41,959
Speaker 1: So the antiwork subredit has has been a growing place

934
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:46,880
Speaker 1: specifically the past year. Um. Their motto is unemployment for all,

935
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:49,920
Speaker 1: not just for the rich. Uh. It's a it's a

936
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 1: good good it is it is a solid it's a

937
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:56,880
Speaker 1: solid botto of their their their own like a description

938
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:00,279
Speaker 1: is uh a subredit for those who want to end work,

939
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:02,560
Speaker 1: are curious about ending work, want to get the most

940
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:04,759
Speaker 1: out of a work free life, want more information on

941
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,919
Speaker 1: anti work ideas, and want personal help with their own

942
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:12,440
Speaker 1: jobs slash work related struggles. So back in back in February,

943
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:17,359
Speaker 1: um it only the subur it's been around. But back

944
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:20,360
Speaker 1: in February it had like two hundred and thirty five

945
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 1: thousand UM subs, and now it has over one point

946
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:27,120
Speaker 1: one million UM It's grown. Most of that growth has

947
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:29,719
Speaker 1: been in the past two months. Uh it's it has

948
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 1: kind of kind of exploded in popularity. Um And actually

949
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 1: it got it got so big, and there's so many

950
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:38,680
Speaker 1: posts on it that they have to they have they

951
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 1: have now they have to like restrict text message conversation

952
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:44,319
Speaker 1: screenshots to only being allowed to be posted like on

953
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:47,400
Speaker 1: one day a week, just because of the intense influx

954
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 1: of of these posts, you know, some of them genuine,

955
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 1: others maybe not so much. Um And And even though

956
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:56,720
Speaker 1: the suburn it may not be the biggest in terms

957
00:51:56,719 --> 00:52:01,280
Speaker 1: of like subscribers, um it's it has more like daily

958
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 1: posts than something like the Wall Street BET's suborb it

959
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 1: has so even though it doesn't have as many subscribers,

960
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:11,280
Speaker 1: the amount of actual like posting on it is higher

961
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:13,080
Speaker 1: than a lot of other suborates as well. So it

962
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:18,879
Speaker 1: is it is growing in popularity, like in in multiple ways.

963
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:21,640
Speaker 1: It feels a little bit right now, like the social

964
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:24,040
Speaker 1: media equivalent of a of a sort of damolea. It's

965
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:28,680
Speaker 1: like Wall Street Bets made a not insignificant uh splash

966
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:30,759
Speaker 1: earlier this year. It was it was quite a thing

967
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:34,799
Speaker 1: for the national economy for a little while there. Um

968
00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:37,480
Speaker 1: and Anti Work hasn't had that moment, but I kind

969
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:39,880
Speaker 1: of feel like it might be getting close to critical mass,

970
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:43,240
Speaker 1: Like something, something might come out of this um which

971
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:45,799
Speaker 1: I think would be rad. For for the record, I

972
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:49,359
Speaker 1: think would be rad absolutely. And you know, it may

973
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:52,360
Speaker 1: not be one big thing, but it could be a

974
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:55,280
Speaker 1: lot of smaller things, right. You know, sometimes it's harder

975
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:59,440
Speaker 1: to see bigger change when you're like having more anarchist

976
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:01,959
Speaker 1: adjacent I is and and and the and the Anti

977
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:04,840
Speaker 1: works that when it does does try to keep itself

978
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 1: being a radical subred and does trying to fight off

979
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:11,799
Speaker 1: neoliberal sentiments and stuff. And there have been there have

980
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:13,960
Speaker 1: been some complaints. I've seen a people being like, ah,

981
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:16,360
Speaker 1: the liberals have gotten in and and people are talking

982
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:18,879
Speaker 1: about like, well, I just really want a life that's

983
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:20,640
Speaker 1: like I'm not stressed all the time and I have

984
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:23,120
Speaker 1: enough money for for bills and stuff. Really, people have

985
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:25,759
Speaker 1: been talking about like, oh, this job, Like I I

986
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:28,000
Speaker 1: left my old job and I got into a better situation.

987
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:31,080
Speaker 1: That's good. And there's complaints about that. And I think

988
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:35,400
Speaker 1: it is important to like push against de radicalizing the subredit,

989
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:37,799
Speaker 1: But I don't think it's bad that you're getting a

990
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:40,560
Speaker 1: lot of liberals in there who are not turned off

991
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 1: by the name anti work um, and I think that's

992
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 1: I think it's positive that that they're even if they're

993
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:49,840
Speaker 1: you know, they're not coming at it from kind of

994
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:53,880
Speaker 1: a revolutionary perspective. But hey, it's okay to quit my

995
00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:56,239
Speaker 1: job if if the conditions are shipped and try to

996
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:58,160
Speaker 1: find a place where I'm treated better. If that's their

997
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:00,520
Speaker 1: in road to this kind of thought, I still think

998
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:04,920
Speaker 1: that's pretty pretty awesome. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, because I mean

999
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:09,400
Speaker 1: it's not realistic for every single person. Well and actually

1000
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 1: it is realistic for every single person to quit their job,

1001
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:14,840
Speaker 1: but it's it's not realistic for only a few people

1002
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:17,880
Speaker 1: to write and sometimes if if not, if if everyone's

1003
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:19,879
Speaker 1: not gonna do it, like literally everyone, then he knows

1004
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:22,440
Speaker 1: some people can't can't afford to quit their job um

1005
00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:24,440
Speaker 1: right now because they have like kids, defeat or whatever

1006
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:27,600
Speaker 1: um for themselves or you know, there's a lot there's

1007
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:29,440
Speaker 1: a lot of reasons, which I'll kind of talk a

1008
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:33,160
Speaker 1: little bit more about later. So and so the term

1009
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 1: anti work just does not does not come from the

1010
00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:38,799
Speaker 1: sub credit UM and anti work has been like a

1011
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:41,440
Speaker 1: post left term for a while now, and it kind

1012
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:45,759
Speaker 1: of kind of applies to a broad spectrum of like

1013
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:50,680
Speaker 1: anarchist adjacent kind of thought around Hey, if we're gonna

1014
00:54:50,719 --> 00:54:54,200
Speaker 1: if we're gonna question like capitalism, uh and the state,

1015
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:56,840
Speaker 1: we should probably also question just the idea of work

1016
00:54:56,880 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 1: itself and how it functions and how the state kind

1017
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:03,400
Speaker 1: of works only possible with the state. And it's that

1018
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:07,560
Speaker 1: specific line line of thinking. UM. A few examples of

1019
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:12,160
Speaker 1: like of like you know, seminal anti work books UM is.

1020
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:17,360
Speaker 1: One of them is Bob Blacks The Abolition of Work. UM.

1021
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:19,800
Speaker 1: Crime Think has a really good book just called work,

1022
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:22,040
Speaker 1: which is another another one that gets referenced a lot,

1023
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:25,480
Speaker 1: even even in the subredit And also Bullshit Jobs by

1024
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:28,279
Speaker 1: David Graber, and uh, bullshit Jobs was also kind of

1025
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:32,720
Speaker 1: partially inspired by Bob Blacks The Abolition of Work. Um,

1026
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 1: all of those are are great resources and uh specifically

1027
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:38,200
Speaker 1: like bullshit Jobs is great and like a in like

1028
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:41,240
Speaker 1: a for a modern outlook on this, like Bob Black's

1029
00:55:41,239 --> 00:55:43,520
Speaker 1: book was written, was written a while ago, and the

1030
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:47,080
Speaker 1: Bullshit Jobs is definitely very timely and even even even

1031
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:50,480
Speaker 1: crimes thinks work book also also addresses stuff or even

1032
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:53,839
Speaker 1: though it wasn't not written within the past. I think

1033
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:56,520
Speaker 1: it is maybe slightly older than than a decade, but

1034
00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:58,920
Speaker 1: I think that they are updating it with more information

1035
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:01,200
Speaker 1: about like the gig economy and stuff like that. Yeah,

1036
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:06,480
Speaker 1: and it's it's not as it's characterized as as anti

1037
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:08,759
Speaker 1: work is often characterised by critics. It's not saying like

1038
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:11,680
Speaker 1: nobody should have to do anything in a way. It's

1039
00:56:11,719 --> 00:56:15,480
Speaker 1: not actually we'll talk about Diogenes later. Um, but it's

1040
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:18,160
Speaker 1: not everyone should just like lay around and do nothing.

1041
00:56:18,239 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 1: It's people shouldn't have to do the thing that we

1042
00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:25,200
Speaker 1: call work, which is destroy your body or your mind

1043
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:29,359
Speaker 1: or both. Uh, most of your waking hours, most of

1044
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:31,879
Speaker 1: your life in the hope that you'll get ten years

1045
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:35,160
Speaker 1: as an old person to not do that, like and

1046
00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:37,080
Speaker 1: and and and a little bit that that that's bad.

1047
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:38,960
Speaker 1: That's a bad way to be a person, like a

1048
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:40,480
Speaker 1: bad way to have to be And it's not bad

1049
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:42,719
Speaker 1: to do that, it's it's bad that you have to

1050
00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:45,120
Speaker 1: do that. Yeah, yeah, and I mean and and there

1051
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:46,520
Speaker 1: is a there is a little bit of it that

1052
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:50,799
Speaker 1: is about finding time to chill out. It was going

1053
00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:52,279
Speaker 1: to apply a lot of you know, a lot of

1054
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:54,560
Speaker 1: the ways if you have to keep a job, you know,

1055
00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:56,319
Speaker 1: the different ways you can you can go about that

1056
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:58,719
Speaker 1: job that does that makes it so doesn't like kill you.

1057
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:01,360
Speaker 1: One of my favorite ways of about anti works just

1058
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:04,400
Speaker 1: like anti capitalism put into actual practice. So it's sort

1059
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:06,960
Speaker 1: of you know, just debating online about anti capitalism as

1060
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:09,319
Speaker 1: some you know, future things like no, like what can

1061
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 1: you do to actually you know, make capitalism less important

1062
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:15,600
Speaker 1: part of how you live your life every day, which

1063
00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:18,240
Speaker 1: means you know, not obsessing over careers and all these

1064
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:20,320
Speaker 1: kind of other things. So I think I think first

1065
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:22,720
Speaker 1: of all, it might be useful to kind of think

1066
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:24,840
Speaker 1: about like what do we actually mean by work, because

1067
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:27,400
Speaker 1: works kind of a works like a it's it has

1068
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:29,880
Speaker 1: a lot of definitions, depend depending on what like you

1069
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:32,640
Speaker 1: depend depending on like what you mean by it, right?

1070
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:36,280
Speaker 1: Is it just like wage labor? Is it just forced labor? Um?

1071
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:39,200
Speaker 1: You know, is cooking for yourself or your family considered work?

1072
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:42,960
Speaker 1: But not always? But you know, like at times when

1073
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:44,480
Speaker 1: I when when I when I'm like relaxed, I can

1074
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:47,520
Speaker 1: I quite enjoy cooking for friends and family. But but certainly,

1075
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:50,080
Speaker 1: but certainly it can feel like work sometimes, especially if

1076
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:51,960
Speaker 1: you especially if you just got home from like a

1077
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:57,040
Speaker 1: work shift. So in a way, like work creates more work. Um,

1078
00:57:57,080 --> 00:57:58,960
Speaker 1: And it's it's not it's it's it kind of it's

1079
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:01,959
Speaker 1: doesn't It isn't just it isn't just about like wage

1080
00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:03,720
Speaker 1: labor or something. It can kind of apply to a

1081
00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:07,560
Speaker 1: lot of ways about how you live your life. There's

1082
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:11,120
Speaker 1: a lot of looking laying down wood chips or sad.

1083
00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:13,520
Speaker 1: If that's like your job, every day can be like

1084
00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:16,959
Speaker 1: a miserable, backbreaking process. If you actually have a huge

1085
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:18,720
Speaker 1: yard or like own a little bit of land and

1086
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:21,520
Speaker 1: you're making your own garden, that can be an intensely

1087
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:25,400
Speaker 1: like the best part of your week. It can be Yeah, yeah,

1088
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:30,320
Speaker 1: it's it's not. The problem is not the individual tasks necessarily,

1089
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:34,200
Speaker 1: it's what work is as a as a a platonic

1090
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:37,800
Speaker 1: kind of concept in our society. Yeah. Not and and

1091
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:39,400
Speaker 1: again one of the things, and I think this is

1092
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:41,439
Speaker 1: one of the things speaking of you talked about David

1093
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:45,560
Speaker 1: Graber earlier, who's an anarchist anthropologist and widely seen to

1094
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:48,880
Speaker 1: be like one of the most brilliant anthropologists of his generation.

1095
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:52,800
Speaker 1: He recently deceased, but a book that he wrote before

1096
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:56,560
Speaker 1: he died with another and another fellow, came out recently

1097
00:58:56,640 --> 00:58:59,080
Speaker 1: called The Dawn of Everything that talks a lot about

1098
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 1: how yeah, these ideas, that kind of capitalism has a

1099
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:08,480
Speaker 1: vested interest in you believing that the world was always

1100
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:11,280
Speaker 1: hard in the way that it's hard, by which I

1101
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:14,200
Speaker 1: mean like, in order to get basic necessities you have

1102
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:17,920
Speaker 1: to make somebody else rich um or find some grift

1103
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:20,919
Speaker 1: of your own. And as opposed to like, yeah, life

1104
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:24,360
Speaker 1: is always hard, but life wasn't didn't always involve labor

1105
00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:27,160
Speaker 1: the way we think about it. Labor has not been

1106
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:30,080
Speaker 1: a constant in human civilization. In fact, most of human

1107
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:32,760
Speaker 1: civilization people have not done a thing that we would

1108
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:36,040
Speaker 1: recognize as labor. And I think also even if you

1109
00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:39,040
Speaker 1: go towards things that like look more like labor to us, right,

1110
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:40,240
Speaker 1: Like I don't know, like look look like if you

1111
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:42,840
Speaker 1: look at like feudal levies, right, you're a peasant. You

1112
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:45,360
Speaker 1: have to get some amount of grain to your lord.

1113
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:49,640
Speaker 1: But like, okay, we work way longer than medieval peasist did.

1114
00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:52,160
Speaker 1: And not only do we work longer, is something greater

1115
00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:54,120
Speaker 1: and David Beno talk about in that book is like yeah,

1116
00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:56,120
Speaker 1: like not only do we work much longer, like the

1117
00:59:56,160 --> 00:59:59,320
Speaker 1: amount that we work would have been considered absolutely, like

1118
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:02,000
Speaker 1: even even if feudal lord would look at that much

1119
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:05,040
Speaker 1: work and go no, like this is this is this

1120
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:07,480
Speaker 1: is like and you know, and I think there's there's

1121
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:10,880
Speaker 1: another grip hasn't. As another point um he wrote a

1122
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:14,480
Speaker 1: piece called Turning Modes of Production inside Out, where he

1123
01:00:14,520 --> 01:00:16,560
Speaker 1: has his argument that like, okay, so if if you

1124
01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:20,240
Speaker 1: take you know, if you take like Plato, right, you're like,

1125
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:22,439
Speaker 1: you take any of the Greek philosophers, even the conservative ones,

1126
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:27,400
Speaker 1: and you show them this the thing, the thing that

1127
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:29,440
Speaker 1: we do every day. Right, you're you know, you have

1128
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:33,280
Speaker 1: you're you're completely under the command of another person for

1129
01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:36,960
Speaker 1: like at least a third, probably more of your day yeah,

1130
01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:40,680
Speaker 1: I monitor you and Garrison's bathroom breaks. I look at

1131
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:43,840
Speaker 1: your texts with family and friends. Um, it's it's really

1132
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:50,040
Speaker 1: it's an incredibly strict surveillance state. From Robert Evans. Yeah. Yeah,

1133
01:00:50,120 --> 01:00:51,680
Speaker 1: this is like like you know, if you show a

1134
01:00:51,680 --> 01:00:55,000
Speaker 1: Greek person that this is like this is the apocalypse

1135
01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:56,440
Speaker 1: to them, this is this is the worst thing that

1136
01:00:56,480 --> 01:01:00,920
Speaker 1: could possibly happens. Every single person in society has like

1137
01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:06,640
Speaker 1: essentially been reduced to a slave, and you know that's

1138
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:09,520
Speaker 1: bad and it doesn't have to be like it's not

1139
01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:11,680
Speaker 1: that they've been because I want to push back on

1140
01:01:11,680 --> 01:01:14,200
Speaker 1: that terminology because it can go to some uncomfortable places.

1141
01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:17,320
Speaker 1: It's not that they are treated as a slave. It's

1142
01:01:17,440 --> 01:01:20,920
Speaker 1: that in the hours in which they are expected to labor,

1143
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:25,560
Speaker 1: there's a societal expectation that they act as the property

1144
01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:28,400
Speaker 1: of whoever owns the business or manages them. Right. The

1145
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:31,400
Speaker 1: idea of like if it if it like that attitude

1146
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:33,880
Speaker 1: from like like working in a kitchen or or working

1147
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:35,920
Speaker 1: at a fast food restaurant, like if you lean, if

1148
01:01:35,920 --> 01:01:38,240
Speaker 1: you're if you can lean, you can clean, Like that

1149
01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:42,280
Speaker 1: attitude is saying you do not have any autonomy when

1150
01:01:42,280 --> 01:01:44,480
Speaker 1: you are at work. You are the property of the

1151
01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:48,240
Speaker 1: of the employer while you are at work. Um, I think, yeah,

1152
01:01:48,240 --> 01:01:49,600
Speaker 1: and and I think and I think, you know, but

1153
01:01:49,680 --> 01:01:51,440
Speaker 1: I think there's a specific thing with Greece is that, like,

1154
01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:53,280
Speaker 1: you know, you the only way you could do that

1155
01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:55,960
Speaker 1: to someone in Greece is if you owned them. Yeah,

1156
01:01:56,080 --> 01:01:58,040
Speaker 1: Like you know, I'm like, the grease has wage labor, right,

1157
01:01:58,040 --> 01:02:00,640
Speaker 1: but the only people who like has wege labor, but

1158
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:04,000
Speaker 1: it has wage labor for slaves. And that's like it right,

1159
01:02:04,080 --> 01:02:06,400
Speaker 1: like this, you know, and this is this is not

1160
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:08,800
Speaker 1: like obviously not to say that, like you know, we're

1161
01:02:08,880 --> 01:02:11,120
Speaker 1: like having a job is the same thing as slavery,

1162
01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:14,280
Speaker 1: but it's it's to say that, like the kinds of

1163
01:02:14,320 --> 01:02:17,640
Speaker 1: things that we think of as normal, like are things

1164
01:02:17,680 --> 01:02:20,480
Speaker 1: that like the people who you know, the people who

1165
01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:23,240
Speaker 1: run the system and the people who you know get

1166
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:25,640
Speaker 1: cited all the time to justify stuff would have looked

1167
01:02:25,640 --> 01:02:27,880
Speaker 1: at as like the worst thing that could possibly have

1168
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:32,760
Speaker 1: happened to a society. Yeah, sure, like daily life for

1169
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:36,920
Speaker 1: a very substantial chunk of of the American workforce is

1170
01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:40,400
Speaker 1: that would be a nightmare to large percentages of the

1171
01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:46,720
Speaker 1: human population prior to the modern period. Like it's it's

1172
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:50,520
Speaker 1: and and if you think about it that way, like

1173
01:02:50,560 --> 01:02:52,600
Speaker 1: one of the things Graber does a good job of

1174
01:02:52,640 --> 01:02:57,400
Speaker 1: going into UM is like the way in which uh

1175
01:02:57,520 --> 01:02:59,160
Speaker 1: and this is also something that comes up in in

1176
01:02:59,160 --> 01:03:00,960
Speaker 1: in tribe by you or the way in which, like

1177
01:03:01,120 --> 01:03:05,560
Speaker 1: during the early period of colonization of North America, UM,

1178
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:09,640
Speaker 1: it was very common for you know, Europeans to leave

1179
01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:14,440
Speaker 1: the cities and in towns being established behind um and

1180
01:03:14,440 --> 01:03:17,200
Speaker 1: and join up with indigenals, with the tribes. The reverse

1181
01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:21,360
Speaker 1: never happened, like like, not willingly, not without kidnapping being

1182
01:03:21,360 --> 01:03:23,880
Speaker 1: a part of it. UM. And it's because like their

1183
01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:26,640
Speaker 1: attitude was, they were looking at the lives these people

1184
01:03:26,640 --> 01:03:29,280
Speaker 1: were living in these cities and like, well, why would

1185
01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:34,400
Speaker 1: you agree to do that? And um, this is turning anyway, Garrison,

1186
01:03:34,480 --> 01:03:36,520
Speaker 1: you should you should take us back on the rails.

1187
01:03:36,520 --> 01:03:41,160
Speaker 1: This is getting more but first products. You know what

1188
01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:44,800
Speaker 1: has nothing to do with the fact that human beings

1189
01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:49,320
Speaker 1: are forced to labor for basic necessities in order to

1190
01:03:49,400 --> 01:03:52,360
Speaker 1: keep up a system that steals the freedom of the

1191
01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:55,680
Speaker 1: many in order to provide impossible liberty to the few.

1192
01:03:55,920 --> 01:04:00,400
Speaker 1: You know what isn't related to that. The advertising lutely

1193
01:04:00,520 --> 01:04:04,400
Speaker 1: industrial complex not has nothing to do with it, totally unrelated.

1194
01:04:04,640 --> 01:04:07,480
Speaker 1: Why would you say that? Garrison? By the way, did

1195
01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:10,080
Speaker 1: you know that McDonald's muffin is turning fifty years old

1196
01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:14,720
Speaker 1: and it's giving the breakfast they're they're they're they're selling

1197
01:04:14,720 --> 01:04:16,760
Speaker 1: it for its original price of sixty three cents during

1198
01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:19,960
Speaker 1: breakfast hour six a m. To ten thirty am, exclusively

1199
01:04:19,960 --> 01:04:23,320
Speaker 1: on the McDonald's app. That I can't, I can't do

1200
01:04:23,320 --> 01:04:25,280
Speaker 1: you guys? Do you guys want egg mcmuffins for sixty

1201
01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:27,560
Speaker 1: three cents? That's the original price. I wonder what else

1202
01:04:27,640 --> 01:04:30,400
Speaker 1: the McDonald's app is looking at on my phone? Anyway,

1203
01:04:30,520 --> 01:04:35,880
Speaker 1: here's some mats. Oh, we're back and we're talking about

1204
01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:39,280
Speaker 1: anti work. We're talking about how works kind of bullshit

1205
01:04:39,480 --> 01:04:43,840
Speaker 1: for our jobs. Um yeah, yeah, we sure are, We

1206
01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:49,200
Speaker 1: sure are. So you know, like there is there there's

1207
01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:53,080
Speaker 1: a lot of people who like enjoy stuff like gardening, fishing, carpentry, cooking,

1208
01:04:53,120 --> 01:04:56,240
Speaker 1: and even like you know, just fighting, fighting computer programming

1209
01:04:56,440 --> 01:04:58,320
Speaker 1: just for their own sake. Like a lot of the

1210
01:04:58,320 --> 01:05:02,320
Speaker 1: stuff that we like quote quote needs need for uh

1211
01:05:02,640 --> 01:05:04,400
Speaker 1: society to function. A lot a lot of those things

1212
01:05:04,440 --> 01:05:07,640
Speaker 1: people like doing as hobbies in their spirits. For example,

1213
01:05:07,680 --> 01:05:10,440
Speaker 1: if you're a police officer, gunning down a man in

1214
01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:12,680
Speaker 1: cold blood might be kind of like your day job

1215
01:05:12,720 --> 01:05:14,680
Speaker 1: and like frustrating, and there's a lot of ship you

1216
01:05:14,720 --> 01:05:16,720
Speaker 1: have to deal with. If you're a mash shooter, though,

1217
01:05:16,880 --> 01:05:20,680
Speaker 1: you just love it. You know, you're just doing it.

1218
01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:24,680
Speaker 1: That is that That is exactly what the cow writtenhouse

1219
01:05:24,680 --> 01:05:26,720
Speaker 1: thing is though like like like like like actually like

1220
01:05:27,240 --> 01:05:30,240
Speaker 1: literally that that that is what that is. This is

1221
01:05:30,600 --> 01:05:32,400
Speaker 1: we I mean, we're not going to get the verdict today.

1222
01:05:32,400 --> 01:05:35,440
Speaker 1: It doesn't look like not today, which by the by

1223
01:05:35,440 --> 01:05:38,360
Speaker 1: the time this airs, it may already be done. Um.

1224
01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:40,040
Speaker 1: But anyway, like a lot of a lot of people

1225
01:05:40,080 --> 01:05:42,720
Speaker 1: like doing those things without getting paid, and sometimes you know,

1226
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:45,880
Speaker 1: often like costing themselves money, right, A lot of these

1227
01:05:45,880 --> 01:05:48,760
Speaker 1: hobbies are you know, are costly in their own in

1228
01:05:48,800 --> 01:05:51,600
Speaker 1: their own right, um. And I think it's interesting to

1229
01:05:51,680 --> 01:05:54,160
Speaker 1: you know, think, think of a society where you're well,

1230
01:05:54,160 --> 01:05:56,840
Speaker 1: you're free to do those things when you feel like it,

1231
01:05:57,200 --> 01:05:58,800
Speaker 1: and you don't need to drag yourself out of bed

1232
01:05:58,800 --> 01:06:00,720
Speaker 1: at you know, earlyer than wanting to work to work

1233
01:06:00,720 --> 01:06:02,760
Speaker 1: a ten hour shift as like a cash register. And

1234
01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:04,880
Speaker 1: it's not just even when you feel like it. Because

1235
01:06:04,920 --> 01:06:06,880
Speaker 1: there will be things that you have to do. Even

1236
01:06:06,880 --> 01:06:09,000
Speaker 1: if I will discuss this like toget yeah, yeah, yeah,

1237
01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:12,160
Speaker 1: in any but like yeah, but it's not it's it's

1238
01:06:12,200 --> 01:06:15,040
Speaker 1: not work if you're if you're going out and harvesting

1239
01:06:15,120 --> 01:06:18,560
Speaker 1: food that feeds you in your community, that's not like

1240
01:06:18,720 --> 01:06:20,840
Speaker 1: work in the sense that we talk about modern work.

1241
01:06:20,920 --> 01:06:23,520
Speaker 1: The amount of extra energy we have by not having

1242
01:06:23,600 --> 01:06:26,880
Speaker 1: ten hour horrible shifts that drain ourselves mentally and physically

1243
01:06:27,320 --> 01:06:29,800
Speaker 1: and more in with you know, the amount of most

1244
01:06:29,840 --> 01:06:32,760
Speaker 1: of the work that we people do, as shown in

1245
01:06:32,840 --> 01:06:36,160
Speaker 1: David Graper's bull bullshit Jobs, is like not necessary. Like

1246
01:06:36,280 --> 01:06:38,040
Speaker 1: a lot of like a lot of the work that

1247
01:06:38,080 --> 01:06:42,040
Speaker 1: we do as a whole is not There's there's some

1248
01:06:42,200 --> 01:06:44,880
Speaker 1: squibbling about because the book was based off of a study,

1249
01:06:45,160 --> 01:06:47,080
Speaker 1: like a survey that kind of showed a lot of

1250
01:06:47,400 --> 01:06:49,920
Speaker 1: very significant chunk of the workforce thinks their job is

1251
01:06:49,960 --> 01:06:52,800
Speaker 1: like pointless and doesn't do anything. And there's been some

1252
01:06:52,840 --> 01:06:55,320
Speaker 1: criticisms of that, but it is undoubted that a very

1253
01:06:55,320 --> 01:06:58,520
Speaker 1: significant amount of total labor time spent is stuff that

1254
01:06:58,640 --> 01:07:03,560
Speaker 1: isn't necessary ry for really like reason of like making

1255
01:07:03,840 --> 01:07:06,840
Speaker 1: people's lives better. And another part of like anti work

1256
01:07:06,880 --> 01:07:09,600
Speaker 1: theories is looking is looking at our society as it's built,

1257
01:07:09,600 --> 01:07:11,040
Speaker 1: you know, because it is it is HyG to anarchism

1258
01:07:11,080 --> 01:07:14,000
Speaker 1: and be like how much of this is actually necessary?

1259
01:07:14,040 --> 01:07:16,960
Speaker 1: Like how do we do we really need a mac rib?

1260
01:07:17,280 --> 01:07:21,240
Speaker 1: Like do we do we go? What do you? What

1261
01:07:21,320 --> 01:07:23,760
Speaker 1: do you? What do you? Garrison? Do we do not

1262
01:07:25,960 --> 01:07:31,600
Speaker 1: need a macrib? We do not? Did the company training?

1263
01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:36,600
Speaker 1: And they the company training says you can't attack someone

1264
01:07:36,640 --> 01:07:39,320
Speaker 1: for their religion, and Garrison just attacked the McRib, So

1265
01:07:40,240 --> 01:07:42,200
Speaker 1: that actually is you know, it is a religion for

1266
01:07:42,240 --> 01:07:44,240
Speaker 1: a lot of people. Did you just see that there? There?

1267
01:07:44,320 --> 01:07:47,240
Speaker 1: They they did sell a macribb n FT a few

1268
01:07:47,240 --> 01:07:50,520
Speaker 1: weeks ago. Um and tell me that ship that is

1269
01:07:50,600 --> 01:07:56,920
Speaker 1: so upsetting, thank god damn it. Yeah yeah, just saying

1270
01:07:56,960 --> 01:07:59,520
Speaker 1: society with no money would not have n f T s. Yeah,

1271
01:08:00,640 --> 01:08:04,320
Speaker 1: so gosh. But you know, think thinking of like anti

1272
01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:06,960
Speaker 1: work as as the theory. You know, it's about cutting

1273
01:08:06,960 --> 01:08:10,520
Speaker 1: down those those unnecessary things that fill people's time. Um.

1274
01:08:10,600 --> 01:08:14,200
Speaker 1: And you know and for a more you know, forward

1275
01:08:14,560 --> 01:08:17,519
Speaker 1: forward looking sense. It's it's a general kind of like

1276
01:08:17,240 --> 01:08:21,519
Speaker 1: a like abolition of the producer and consumer based society. Um.

1277
01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:24,120
Speaker 1: So you know, life is not dedicated to the production

1278
01:08:24,120 --> 01:08:26,880
Speaker 1: and consumption of of goods and commodities. So you know

1279
01:08:27,080 --> 01:08:30,200
Speaker 1: this this applies not not just a capitalism but also

1280
01:08:30,240 --> 01:08:33,040
Speaker 1: to you know, like state socialism um where you know,

1281
01:08:33,120 --> 01:08:35,080
Speaker 1: work is still you know a big part of state

1282
01:08:35,120 --> 01:08:39,759
Speaker 1: socialism UM. And you think, you know it's humans, it's

1283
01:08:39,760 --> 01:08:42,280
Speaker 1: it's it posits the future that humans can be way, way,

1284
01:08:42,320 --> 01:08:45,040
Speaker 1: way more free when they you know, can reclaim their

1285
01:08:45,080 --> 01:08:48,080
Speaker 1: time from jobs and employment um, instead of you know,

1286
01:08:48,800 --> 01:08:50,759
Speaker 1: spending a lot of their time doing that and spending

1287
01:08:50,800 --> 01:08:52,400
Speaker 1: spending a lot of like not just time, but also

1288
01:08:52,439 --> 01:08:54,599
Speaker 1: just like their energy. Right because even if you work,

1289
01:08:54,640 --> 01:08:56,080
Speaker 1: you know, eight hours a day, you still have a

1290
01:08:56,160 --> 01:08:59,160
Speaker 1: majority of the day to yourself. But you're exhausted. You

1291
01:08:59,240 --> 01:09:01,960
Speaker 1: can't doom it, you can't do much right it. It

1292
01:09:02,040 --> 01:09:06,360
Speaker 1: drains you of everything. So you know, the main point

1293
01:09:06,560 --> 01:09:08,000
Speaker 1: one of the main points of like of the abolition

1294
01:09:08,040 --> 01:09:09,760
Speaker 1: of work, I say by Bob Black is but like

1295
01:09:10,000 --> 01:09:14,439
Speaker 1: there's no one should work because because work is as

1296
01:09:14,479 --> 01:09:17,080
Speaker 1: defined as like as like as like a forced labor

1297
01:09:17,160 --> 01:09:21,200
Speaker 1: practice um. Is. You can kind of track this to

1298
01:09:21,280 --> 01:09:23,479
Speaker 1: being the source of most of the mystery in the

1299
01:09:23,520 --> 01:09:27,880
Speaker 1: world from you know, in in individual people, um, who

1300
01:09:27,880 --> 01:09:29,160
Speaker 1: are forced to do this. So like this is where

1301
01:09:29,160 --> 01:09:32,400
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of their pain comes from.

1302
01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:37,000
Speaker 1: Um is this I is this is this forced labor concept? Um?

1303
01:09:37,240 --> 01:09:39,600
Speaker 1: I think I think a good a good way. You know,

1304
01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:41,479
Speaker 1: there is you know the point that Robert brought up

1305
01:09:41,479 --> 01:09:44,240
Speaker 1: earlier is like you know, what about the tasks that

1306
01:09:44,280 --> 01:09:46,320
Speaker 1: aren't fun? You know what about what about the stuff

1307
01:09:46,360 --> 01:09:50,439
Speaker 1: that isn't isn't maybe as as enjoyable. Um, you know,

1308
01:09:50,560 --> 01:09:52,519
Speaker 1: there's there's there's there's a list of list of things

1309
01:09:52,560 --> 01:09:56,760
Speaker 1: that the standard rep. Who's going to clean up the poop? Right?

1310
01:09:56,880 --> 01:09:59,320
Speaker 1: That's that's the thing. So you know I I kind

1311
01:09:59,320 --> 01:10:01,160
Speaker 1: of I I kind I kind of look at this

1312
01:10:02,360 --> 01:10:04,000
Speaker 1: as like the I kind of kind of look at

1313
01:10:04,040 --> 01:10:06,320
Speaker 1: this as like whenever I have to turn the compost,

1314
01:10:06,840 --> 01:10:08,880
Speaker 1: which is not my favorite thing to do. I I

1315
01:10:08,960 --> 01:10:13,520
Speaker 1: don't look forward to having to turn over our massive, shitty,

1316
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:21,439
Speaker 1: rotting compost bile not not my favorite thing. Um. But no,

1317
01:10:23,439 --> 01:10:25,840
Speaker 1: but now like if there's if if there's like friends

1318
01:10:25,840 --> 01:10:28,240
Speaker 1: around and we're playing music and we're all we have

1319
01:10:28,360 --> 01:10:30,800
Speaker 1: like some like have I have have like an iced

1320
01:10:30,800 --> 01:10:33,479
Speaker 1: tea or a dr pepper and we're like talking as

1321
01:10:33,520 --> 01:10:36,640
Speaker 1: we're turning the compost. It's a lot more doable. You know,

1322
01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:39,320
Speaker 1: it's there's there's because it's it's it's one task that's

1323
01:10:39,320 --> 01:10:42,920
Speaker 1: going to help all of us in the future. Um

1324
01:10:42,960 --> 01:10:45,640
Speaker 1: and I'm not getting watched over by a boss to

1325
01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:47,760
Speaker 1: fill a certain quote so I can pay my rent, right,

1326
01:10:47,760 --> 01:10:49,920
Speaker 1: It's it's this, it's this. It's this thing that helps

1327
01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:54,840
Speaker 1: everybody and I and I do it because I want

1328
01:10:55,600 --> 01:10:59,280
Speaker 1: I want the goal of it to succeed. So there's there's,

1329
01:10:59,280 --> 01:11:01,360
Speaker 1: there's gonna there's is gonna be tasks that are less

1330
01:11:01,360 --> 01:11:04,040
Speaker 1: pleasant than others. You know, what we can do is,

1331
01:11:04,160 --> 01:11:05,840
Speaker 1: you know, imagine a world where the amount of work

1332
01:11:05,840 --> 01:11:08,080
Speaker 1: actually needed to be done is greatly reduced so that

1333
01:11:08,200 --> 01:11:11,160
Speaker 1: the tasks that are necessary and some of them unpleasant,

1334
01:11:11,280 --> 01:11:15,200
Speaker 1: can be spread out, um and among more people, because

1335
01:11:15,280 --> 01:11:17,439
Speaker 1: less people will be wasting upwards of eight hours a day,

1336
01:11:17,560 --> 01:11:21,080
Speaker 1: five days a week doing mostly pointless time filling work.

1337
01:11:21,800 --> 01:11:24,960
Speaker 1: Because yeah, there's there's gonna be things that sucked, and

1338
01:11:25,439 --> 01:11:27,920
Speaker 1: we'll be able to do those a lot better if

1339
01:11:27,920 --> 01:11:30,599
Speaker 1: there's more people and we don't have to waste our

1340
01:11:30,600 --> 01:11:34,639
Speaker 1: times doing stuff that is is honestly a lot more

1341
01:11:34,680 --> 01:11:38,840
Speaker 1: bullshit than actually scooping bullshit. Wow, what a good joke.

1342
01:11:39,040 --> 01:11:47,760
Speaker 1: Speaking it's time. It's time to scoop up some more ads. Wait, really,

1343
01:11:47,920 --> 01:11:51,960
Speaker 1: haven't we done too? No, we only only one. Alright,

1344
01:11:52,040 --> 01:11:55,800
Speaker 1: we went a while without doing one. Guys, listen to

1345
01:11:56,160 --> 01:12:00,960
Speaker 1: the products because everyone loves a service. It's not like

1346
01:12:01,040 --> 01:12:03,840
Speaker 1: the thing we're talking about is bad. It's different than that.

1347
01:12:04,000 --> 01:12:07,320
Speaker 1: So it's fine. Yeah, we're back and we're still still

1348
01:12:07,320 --> 01:12:10,280
Speaker 1: talking about anti work. Um, I do. This is something

1349
01:12:10,280 --> 01:12:13,439
Speaker 1: that the Crime Think workbook points out, and you know

1350
01:12:13,479 --> 01:12:15,519
Speaker 1: it is a pretty it's pretty obvious thing I've I've

1351
01:12:15,520 --> 01:12:17,679
Speaker 1: certainly thought of this before is that, you know, we've

1352
01:12:17,720 --> 01:12:21,599
Speaker 1: been told that the like technological progress will soon liberate

1353
01:12:21,680 --> 01:12:23,920
Speaker 1: humanity from the need to do work or from you know,

1354
01:12:23,960 --> 01:12:26,680
Speaker 1: having to do work as much um. And today we

1355
01:12:26,720 --> 01:12:29,600
Speaker 1: have the capabilities that you know, our ancestors couldn't have

1356
01:12:29,840 --> 01:12:31,600
Speaker 1: even imagined for free, the amount of work that we

1357
01:12:31,640 --> 01:12:34,679
Speaker 1: could get done. Um. But these predictions still like aren't true.

1358
01:12:34,720 --> 01:12:37,000
Speaker 1: We're still working more than ever. Even though we have

1359
01:12:37,160 --> 01:12:41,479
Speaker 1: developed so much um technologically, we're still working more than ever.

1360
01:12:41,520 --> 01:12:43,240
Speaker 1: And if I think it's silly to think that we'll

1361
01:12:43,320 --> 01:12:46,559
Speaker 1: we'll we'll reach like a magic threshold where somehow now

1362
01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:49,200
Speaker 1: we have less work to do because we'll have like

1363
01:12:49,200 --> 01:12:51,479
Speaker 1: I don't know, like robots being a server at Adam

1364
01:12:51,560 --> 01:12:55,799
Speaker 1: Adam McDonald's or whatever. Right, we're there's still there's still

1365
01:12:55,880 --> 01:12:58,080
Speaker 1: is forcing people into this thing because this is the

1366
01:12:58,120 --> 01:13:00,599
Speaker 1: only way that we can live. Right this. We've we've

1367
01:13:00,640 --> 01:13:03,840
Speaker 1: built our whole society around getting work for money, So

1368
01:13:04,240 --> 01:13:08,400
Speaker 1: this is the only the only thing that we can do. Yeah,

1369
01:13:08,760 --> 01:13:11,320
Speaker 1: David Creeper. One of the things he's arguing in Bullshit

1370
01:13:11,400 --> 01:13:14,800
Speaker 1: Jobs is that basically, you know, okay, so so if

1371
01:13:14,880 --> 01:13:18,080
Speaker 1: if you have like you have the Soviet economy, right, okay,

1372
01:13:18,080 --> 01:13:20,240
Speaker 1: so the Soviet economy has has a policy of of

1373
01:13:20,280 --> 01:13:23,160
Speaker 1: full employment. And for a little bit they were like, okay,

1374
01:13:23,160 --> 01:13:24,880
Speaker 1: what if we make everyone work less? And then they

1375
01:13:24,880 --> 01:13:29,000
Speaker 1: stopped and then like everything went to ship, So you know, okay,

1376
01:13:29,040 --> 01:13:30,800
Speaker 1: but if if if you can't make people work less

1377
01:13:30,840 --> 01:13:32,400
Speaker 1: hours and everyone has to work, what do you do?

1378
01:13:32,439 --> 01:13:33,600
Speaker 1: It was like, okay, well you pay a bunch of

1379
01:13:33,600 --> 01:13:38,559
Speaker 1: people to like stand in a doorway. Right now, we

1380
01:13:38,680 --> 01:13:41,479
Speaker 1: also do this And then one of the graps, like

1381
01:13:42,000 --> 01:13:43,680
Speaker 1: the funniest points that he brings up is that the

1382
01:13:44,040 --> 01:13:46,120
Speaker 1: total number of bureaucrats in the x U s s

1383
01:13:46,160 --> 01:13:50,400
Speaker 1: are like increased dramatically after the us R fell, which

1384
01:13:50,439 --> 01:13:53,880
Speaker 1: is incredible, and you know what what it points to

1385
01:13:54,000 --> 01:13:56,080
Speaker 1: is that like, yeah, you know, Greverer called this total

1386
01:13:56,080 --> 01:13:58,680
Speaker 1: beer auctratization, which is that, you know what, what we did,

1387
01:13:58,760 --> 01:14:01,080
Speaker 1: instead of like giving our seals more free time, is

1388
01:14:01,120 --> 01:14:05,280
Speaker 1: created this just like endless, enormous, incredibly violent bureaucracy that

1389
01:14:05,320 --> 01:14:06,920
Speaker 1: all of us have to spend all of our time,

1390
01:14:07,360 --> 01:14:11,000
Speaker 1: like dealing with bullshit from our insurance companies, and like

1391
01:14:11,479 --> 01:14:15,040
Speaker 1: fighting with like the Comcast service person and all of

1392
01:14:15,080 --> 01:14:19,080
Speaker 1: this just like you know, incredibly violent, de humanizing stuff

1393
01:14:19,520 --> 01:14:23,280
Speaker 1: that you know, it's it's it's a make work program, right,

1394
01:14:23,320 --> 01:14:26,680
Speaker 1: it's but it's a make work program that just the

1395
01:14:26,720 --> 01:14:29,799
Speaker 1: work that it makes everyone is making everyone's lives miserable.

1396
01:14:30,280 --> 01:14:35,360
Speaker 1: And we could just not do this. Mh yeah, I

1397
01:14:35,400 --> 01:14:39,720
Speaker 1: mean we could. It's always more complicated than that, right,

1398
01:14:39,760 --> 01:14:43,320
Speaker 1: because the thing that is when we talk about anti work,

1399
01:14:43,320 --> 01:14:45,320
Speaker 1: I think that's on the other side of this is like, Okay, well,

1400
01:14:45,360 --> 01:14:47,120
Speaker 1: what if you get a kid, how are you going

1401
01:14:47,160 --> 01:14:49,400
Speaker 1: to feed that kid? Like what if like, yeah, how

1402
01:14:49,439 --> 01:14:50,640
Speaker 1: are you going to keep him in a house, Like

1403
01:14:50,680 --> 01:14:53,760
Speaker 1: how are not just if you have a kid, But like, yeah,

1404
01:14:53,880 --> 01:14:56,920
Speaker 1: you people die in our society when they do not

1405
01:14:57,040 --> 01:15:00,280
Speaker 1: have access to adequate resources. And the only way to

1406
01:15:00,280 --> 01:15:02,920
Speaker 1: have access to adequate resources is to be born rich

1407
01:15:03,040 --> 01:15:05,600
Speaker 1: or to work. Those are your options. Yeah, that is

1408
01:15:05,600 --> 01:15:08,800
Speaker 1: why without without robust mutual aid and the commitment by

1409
01:15:08,840 --> 01:15:10,200
Speaker 1: a lot of people to try to make sure that

1410
01:15:10,240 --> 01:15:13,880
Speaker 1: a lifestyle is sustainable outside of you know, this system,

1411
01:15:13,960 --> 01:15:17,240
Speaker 1: Like it's not impossible, but it's somewhere along the line

1412
01:15:17,240 --> 01:15:19,120
Speaker 1: there has to be input. I mean, yeah, like we've

1413
01:15:19,120 --> 01:15:22,960
Speaker 1: we've been talking about Yeah, we were talking about antiwork

1414
01:15:22,960 --> 01:15:25,439
Speaker 1: as like as kind of like a broad hopeful like

1415
01:15:25,600 --> 01:15:29,439
Speaker 1: future goal in some other you know, post scarcity, well

1416
01:15:29,439 --> 01:15:31,600
Speaker 1: not not post scarcity, but like it's post like a

1417
01:15:31,680 --> 01:15:35,240
Speaker 1: post crumbling, post kind of collapse future. But I think

1418
01:15:35,280 --> 01:15:38,880
Speaker 1: you know, for us now, as you know, the antiworks

1419
01:15:39,320 --> 01:15:41,920
Speaker 1: is about people now, right, the antiworks it is not

1420
01:15:42,000 --> 01:15:45,519
Speaker 1: about a future world. I think the anti work now

1421
01:15:46,240 --> 01:15:48,800
Speaker 1: is like an alternative to the obsession with living your

1422
01:15:48,840 --> 01:15:52,000
Speaker 1: life with the goal of a career. Yes, it's about

1423
01:15:52,040 --> 01:15:54,240
Speaker 1: trend you know, it's it's like a project to radically

1424
01:15:54,360 --> 01:15:58,080
Speaker 1: reframe the how we think of work and leisure. Um,

1425
01:15:58,120 --> 01:16:01,519
Speaker 1: it's like like like like a cognitive antidote to like

1426
01:16:01,640 --> 01:16:04,880
Speaker 1: the like this culture of like hustle and hard work,

1427
01:16:04,880 --> 01:16:07,439
Speaker 1: which is like taken over our minds and and and

1428
01:16:07,520 --> 01:16:10,160
Speaker 1: our time. So it's like for for those who can't

1429
01:16:10,200 --> 01:16:13,240
Speaker 1: just resign from their job for whatever reason, whatever moment,

1430
01:16:13,600 --> 01:16:16,599
Speaker 1: the anti work is about like thinking of this movement

1431
01:16:16,680 --> 01:16:20,519
Speaker 1: as like the antithesis to the mainstream capitalist hustle culture.

1432
01:16:20,720 --> 01:16:23,280
Speaker 1: You know that that includes like slacking off more, finding

1433
01:16:23,320 --> 01:16:26,800
Speaker 1: ways to waste time, possibly even finding ways to steal

1434
01:16:26,920 --> 01:16:29,679
Speaker 1: or scam your boss. I I've I've read certain certain

1435
01:16:29,840 --> 01:16:34,800
Speaker 1: alleged ways of doing this inside the antiwork Garrison car

1436
01:16:34,880 --> 01:16:38,960
Speaker 1: for Days where they got it from. But yeah, no,

1437
01:16:39,080 --> 01:16:40,519
Speaker 1: but like you know, like there is you know, like

1438
01:16:40,600 --> 01:16:42,760
Speaker 1: ways to like scam scam whatever corporation you work for,

1439
01:16:42,880 --> 01:16:45,559
Speaker 1: right that There's been examples shared in the anti right

1440
01:16:45,800 --> 01:16:47,680
Speaker 1: in in the Anti Works I brut it. So you know,

1441
01:16:47,720 --> 01:16:50,080
Speaker 1: it's about actually like finding, you know, making sure that

1442
01:16:50,120 --> 01:16:52,559
Speaker 1: you hate your work because you should, and then figuring

1443
01:16:52,560 --> 01:16:54,479
Speaker 1: out how to live your life with that in mind.

1444
01:16:54,680 --> 01:16:56,439
Speaker 1: And I think what one of the really hard parts

1445
01:16:56,439 --> 01:16:58,720
Speaker 1: about this is for people who like kind of like

1446
01:16:58,800 --> 01:17:01,360
Speaker 1: their job? Who who? Who? People who are like you

1447
01:17:01,400 --> 01:17:03,560
Speaker 1: think like either like their job or think it's like

1448
01:17:03,640 --> 01:17:05,840
Speaker 1: kind of important or like they're special to have it, right,

1449
01:17:05,880 --> 01:17:08,160
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, you're like, I'm lucky to have such

1450
01:17:08,200 --> 01:17:10,639
Speaker 1: a good job, because like, when you're stuck in that mindset,

1451
01:17:11,040 --> 01:17:13,360
Speaker 1: you can often put in like a lot of extra

1452
01:17:13,520 --> 01:17:16,800
Speaker 1: unpaid labor because you think it's important because you're like, oh, no,

1453
01:17:16,880 --> 01:17:18,760
Speaker 1: this is worth doing because it's gonna have some like

1454
01:17:18,880 --> 01:17:21,040
Speaker 1: benefits to the world. So you end up like putting

1455
01:17:21,040 --> 01:17:23,400
Speaker 1: in actually more work that you don't actually get paid for.

1456
01:17:23,760 --> 01:17:26,439
Speaker 1: And like it's about trying to kill that instinct as well.

1457
01:17:26,600 --> 01:17:28,679
Speaker 1: So that's a whole, a whole way to think about

1458
01:17:28,720 --> 01:17:30,840
Speaker 1: like working, because like we're gonna be stuck. A lot

1459
01:17:30,840 --> 01:17:33,160
Speaker 1: of people are gonna be start doing it for for

1460
01:17:33,160 --> 01:17:35,559
Speaker 1: for a while. So how can you kind of reframe

1461
01:17:35,760 --> 01:17:38,000
Speaker 1: what we do on the job and how kind of

1462
01:17:38,120 --> 01:17:40,599
Speaker 1: jobs live in our minds when we are at home.

1463
01:17:41,240 --> 01:17:43,800
Speaker 1: And I think the best thing about what you've said,

1464
01:17:43,800 --> 01:17:46,479
Speaker 1: in my opinion, is the idea that like this is

1465
01:17:46,600 --> 01:17:51,200
Speaker 1: not the importance is not on whether or not this

1466
01:17:51,200 --> 01:17:54,560
Speaker 1: this it causes everyone to stop having to work immediately

1467
01:17:54,600 --> 01:17:57,800
Speaker 1: like whether or not it leads to you know, directly

1468
01:17:57,880 --> 01:18:00,639
Speaker 1: to Like, the measure of success of this movement isn't

1469
01:18:00,680 --> 01:18:03,080
Speaker 1: that nobody ever has to work again. That's a that's

1470
01:18:03,080 --> 01:18:05,600
Speaker 1: a long term goal. The measure of the success of

1471
01:18:05,640 --> 01:18:08,560
Speaker 1: this movement is that people accept in mass that no,

1472
01:18:09,280 --> 01:18:12,080
Speaker 1: the American dream as it's sold to people is not

1473
01:18:12,320 --> 01:18:14,400
Speaker 1: a good thing too. It's not a thing. To aspire

1474
01:18:14,439 --> 01:18:17,120
Speaker 1: to work is bullshit, and we should aspire to a

1475
01:18:17,160 --> 01:18:20,519
Speaker 1: society that doesn't do it. It's getting back, honestly, like

1476
01:18:20,560 --> 01:18:22,360
Speaker 1: it's getting back to some of the ship that people

1477
01:18:22,400 --> 01:18:25,120
Speaker 1: were talking about in like when The Jetsons was on TV,

1478
01:18:25,240 --> 01:18:27,519
Speaker 1: the idea that like, well, with labor saving devices, the

1479
01:18:27,800 --> 01:18:29,840
Speaker 1: like a hard work week will be four hours and

1480
01:18:29,880 --> 01:18:31,840
Speaker 1: like that's the way life will be for everybody, and

1481
01:18:31,880 --> 01:18:35,720
Speaker 1: like um, and the it's the acceptance that like, no,

1482
01:18:35,920 --> 01:18:39,439
Speaker 1: a better future involves me not having it. No one

1483
01:18:39,760 --> 01:18:42,759
Speaker 1: having to spend forty hours a week of their limited

1484
01:18:42,840 --> 01:18:46,040
Speaker 1: human life working at a fucking sonic or like listening

1485
01:18:46,080 --> 01:18:49,599
Speaker 1: to some middle manager brate them for not answering phones

1486
01:18:49,680 --> 01:18:53,559
Speaker 1: fast enough. Um, that doesn't exist for any human being

1487
01:18:53,720 --> 01:18:56,360
Speaker 1: in a world that is achievable and better than the

1488
01:18:56,360 --> 01:18:58,720
Speaker 1: one that we live in, like convincing people of that

1489
01:18:58,800 --> 01:19:01,719
Speaker 1: and getting that to be whyly accepted. Is I think

1490
01:19:01,840 --> 01:19:04,320
Speaker 1: what I think what is what I would consider the

1491
01:19:04,400 --> 01:19:08,120
Speaker 1: terms of victory in in this particular struggle. Yeah, kind

1492
01:19:08,120 --> 01:19:11,280
Speaker 1: of moving on from this side of things into like

1493
01:19:11,320 --> 01:19:13,320
Speaker 1: the great resignation and the other kind of things that

1494
01:19:13,320 --> 01:19:16,760
Speaker 1: people are doing. So um, in August alone, four point

1495
01:19:16,760 --> 01:19:20,360
Speaker 1: three million Americans voluntarily left their jobs um and the

1496
01:19:20,439 --> 01:19:26,000
Speaker 1: rate of people quitting increased to a a decent, a

1497
01:19:26,080 --> 01:19:29,599
Speaker 1: decent record high of like a two point nine percent,

1498
01:19:29,640 --> 01:19:33,080
Speaker 1: according to the Bureau of Labor and Statistics. So and

1499
01:19:33,360 --> 01:19:35,280
Speaker 1: this this, this, this has been a growing trend. You

1500
01:19:35,280 --> 01:19:37,439
Speaker 1: can look at like I think June was like a

1501
01:19:37,520 --> 01:19:40,519
Speaker 1: like a little under four million. August was four point three.

1502
01:19:40,520 --> 01:19:42,560
Speaker 1: It's like it was you know, it's it's ramping. I

1503
01:19:42,960 --> 01:19:44,519
Speaker 1: don't know what if. I don't know if we have

1504
01:19:44,640 --> 01:19:47,439
Speaker 1: data for September or October. Yet this was the most

1505
01:19:47,479 --> 01:19:51,160
Speaker 1: recent one I could find. Um. So yeah, like it's stuff,

1506
01:19:51,240 --> 01:19:53,599
Speaker 1: stuff is stuff is going up. People are because because

1507
01:19:53,600 --> 01:19:56,080
Speaker 1: people are like a big part of the antibo. And

1508
01:19:56,080 --> 01:19:58,320
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, if your job sucks, you can quit

1509
01:19:58,400 --> 01:20:00,960
Speaker 1: it and probably find another one that pays better in

1510
01:20:01,120 --> 01:20:05,040
Speaker 1: decent time, especially especially especially right now, Like right now,

1511
01:20:05,120 --> 01:20:07,320
Speaker 1: if your job was really terrible, you have a decent

1512
01:20:07,400 --> 01:20:09,880
Speaker 1: chance of finding a better one. Um. This wasn't the

1513
01:20:09,880 --> 01:20:12,320
Speaker 1: case like two years ago. Um, it is the case

1514
01:20:12,360 --> 01:20:14,519
Speaker 1: that at this moment, so a lot of the antiquos

1515
01:20:14,520 --> 01:20:16,760
Speaker 1: spa and it's like, yeah, quit your job, like say

1516
01:20:16,800 --> 01:20:19,800
Speaker 1: fun you to your boss and leave because if they're

1517
01:20:19,800 --> 01:20:22,600
Speaker 1: being shitty then they don't deserve to have you. Um.

1518
01:20:23,400 --> 01:20:25,400
Speaker 1: So resigning has been been a big part of this,

1519
01:20:25,760 --> 01:20:29,360
Speaker 1: and there has there has been attempts at other kind

1520
01:20:29,360 --> 01:20:32,200
Speaker 1: of organized stuff and this kind of falls into in

1521
01:20:32,240 --> 01:20:34,240
Speaker 1: my opinion, this kind of falls into the same kind

1522
01:20:34,240 --> 01:20:38,400
Speaker 1: of traps as sole internet organizing kind of always does.

1523
01:20:38,760 --> 01:20:41,759
Speaker 1: So the big thing that they're organizing for is called

1524
01:20:42,040 --> 01:20:44,640
Speaker 1: Black Friday Blackout, which is about kind of trying to

1525
01:20:44,640 --> 01:20:47,640
Speaker 1: get everyone to as many people as possible to not

1526
01:20:47,680 --> 01:20:51,559
Speaker 1: work Black Friday, um and not buy anything on Black Friday. Um. So,

1527
01:20:51,720 --> 01:20:54,400
Speaker 1: like a post from the subrendt here is like spread

1528
01:20:54,400 --> 01:20:56,679
Speaker 1: the word call sick if you're forced to work black

1529
01:20:56,720 --> 01:20:59,160
Speaker 1: on Black Friday, spend time with your family instead, remain

1530
01:20:59,240 --> 01:21:02,000
Speaker 1: at home and participate in your favorite activity on Friday. November,

1531
01:21:02,960 --> 01:21:04,760
Speaker 1: talk to your family and friends about about your work

1532
01:21:04,760 --> 01:21:09,760
Speaker 1: life struggles. Pass up flyers, join our slash anti work. Um,

1533
01:21:09,800 --> 01:21:11,680
Speaker 1: So this is you know, I think this kind of

1534
01:21:11,680 --> 01:21:14,559
Speaker 1: falls into the same like you know, general strike organized

1535
01:21:14,600 --> 01:21:16,960
Speaker 1: online stuff that we talked about before. How kind of

1536
01:21:17,000 --> 01:21:19,120
Speaker 1: like a lack of like real like in person solidarity

1537
01:21:19,160 --> 01:21:22,519
Speaker 1: and like non internet you know, networking and organizing results

1538
01:21:22,520 --> 01:21:24,200
Speaker 1: and stuff like this just you know, like proposed like

1539
01:21:24,280 --> 01:21:27,240
Speaker 1: one day strikes or actions that are ultimately kind of

1540
01:21:27,600 --> 01:21:30,360
Speaker 1: non effectual, right, Like they can be like a good

1541
01:21:30,400 --> 01:21:33,040
Speaker 1: symbol sometimes, but like you know, they're not. It's it's

1542
01:21:33,040 --> 01:21:35,519
Speaker 1: it's not. It's not really gonna matter that much even

1543
01:21:35,520 --> 01:21:37,559
Speaker 1: even if it works. Well, what I think it'd be

1544
01:21:37,560 --> 01:21:39,840
Speaker 1: cool if literally no store was open on Black Friday

1545
01:21:39,840 --> 01:21:42,320
Speaker 1: because everyone quit. Yeah, that would be rad. But that's

1546
01:21:42,360 --> 01:21:45,440
Speaker 1: that's not I don't that's not gonna really happen. Um,

1547
01:21:45,680 --> 01:21:48,000
Speaker 1: it would be fun if it did, but like, realistically,

1548
01:21:48,040 --> 01:21:49,760
Speaker 1: it's it's not, it's not gonna happen. And there is

1549
01:21:49,760 --> 01:21:51,800
Speaker 1: people on the subward who also point this out there

1550
01:21:51,800 --> 01:21:54,559
Speaker 1: there there was there was a reply to this post

1551
01:21:54,640 --> 01:21:56,880
Speaker 1: that was like, oh look, another online call for a

1552
01:21:56,880 --> 01:21:59,800
Speaker 1: general strike with no union support whatsoever. Don't worry y'all

1553
01:22:00,000 --> 01:22:02,360
Speaker 1: this one, this one is definitely gonna work. Um. So

1554
01:22:02,400 --> 01:22:04,640
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, like there's a lot of people in

1555
01:22:04,640 --> 01:22:07,519
Speaker 1: the sub also recognize that like without like actual like

1556
01:22:07,600 --> 01:22:10,600
Speaker 1: organizing support um and in person stuff and you know

1557
01:22:10,760 --> 01:22:13,960
Speaker 1: networks to support people on like you know, lengthy strikes.

1558
01:22:14,000 --> 01:22:17,160
Speaker 1: These types of things are kind of are mostly symbolic

1559
01:22:17,200 --> 01:22:21,280
Speaker 1: actions that will have, you know, in the end, little

1560
01:22:21,479 --> 01:22:26,000
Speaker 1: little impact. Um. They may make you feel powerful as

1561
01:22:26,040 --> 01:22:27,920
Speaker 1: you're doing them, which is you know, which is good.

1562
01:22:27,960 --> 01:22:30,200
Speaker 1: That is a lot of activism is actually just just

1563
01:22:30,280 --> 01:22:34,800
Speaker 1: about you feeling powerful in that moment um. But you know,

1564
01:22:35,040 --> 01:22:37,040
Speaker 1: as as an end goals, remember it's important to be

1565
01:22:37,360 --> 01:22:39,639
Speaker 1: remember to think like it's not it's that this isn't

1566
01:22:39,680 --> 01:22:42,880
Speaker 1: you know, this isn't gonna reach whatever anti work utopia,

1567
01:22:42,920 --> 01:22:46,240
Speaker 1: which and I know people people organizing it aren't thinking that,

1568
01:22:46,600 --> 01:22:48,880
Speaker 1: but you know, it's it's it's important to keep this

1569
01:22:48,920 --> 01:22:52,919
Speaker 1: within context of like the limits of of of online organizing.

1570
01:22:53,160 --> 01:22:54,800
Speaker 1: You know. So a lot a lot of people like

1571
01:22:54,800 --> 01:22:59,040
Speaker 1: recommend you know, focusing on organizing your own workplace and community, um,

1572
01:22:59,040 --> 01:23:03,280
Speaker 1: discussing you know, discussing having discussions with with unions kind

1573
01:23:03,280 --> 01:23:08,120
Speaker 1: of in in your area. Um, and yeah, a part of,

1574
01:23:08,120 --> 01:23:10,000
Speaker 1: part of, part of kind of the part of the

1575
01:23:10,040 --> 01:23:13,240
Speaker 1: reply to to this original like a black Friday blackout

1576
01:23:13,280 --> 01:23:18,639
Speaker 1: post that that someone that someone wrote was was Seriously though,

1577
01:23:18,800 --> 01:23:20,519
Speaker 1: I would love for an actual gent general strike to

1578
01:23:20,560 --> 01:23:22,679
Speaker 1: kick off. But these online calls for gen general strikes,

1579
01:23:22,680 --> 01:23:25,639
Speaker 1: it's no union involvement, no demands, no supports for strikers

1580
01:23:25,640 --> 01:23:29,000
Speaker 1: of any kind, no nothing whatsoever beyond social media hashtags

1581
01:23:29,040 --> 01:23:32,000
Speaker 1: don't do anything. Focus on organizing or workplace and community

1582
01:23:32,040 --> 01:23:35,799
Speaker 1: discussed with unions which might be sympathetic to what criteria, uh,

1583
01:23:35,880 --> 01:23:38,519
Speaker 1: what criteria they might need from such a drastic action.

1584
01:23:38,840 --> 01:23:40,960
Speaker 1: There's a lot of unions on strike right now, so

1585
01:23:41,000 --> 01:23:42,320
Speaker 1: if there ever was a time to kick one off,

1586
01:23:42,360 --> 01:23:44,760
Speaker 1: it's now. Most general strikes in the past started off

1587
01:23:44,800 --> 01:23:47,599
Speaker 1: with specific strikes that started pulling in other union unions

1588
01:23:47,720 --> 01:23:51,360
Speaker 1: and solidarity than anything else. Focus on that and we

1589
01:23:51,439 --> 01:23:53,439
Speaker 1: might get somewhere. I think. Is it's a decent Is

1590
01:23:53,479 --> 01:23:56,200
Speaker 1: a decent advice for the people who are really dedicated

1591
01:23:56,240 --> 01:23:58,920
Speaker 1: onto this kind of like general strike thing is Yeah?

1592
01:23:58,960 --> 01:24:01,599
Speaker 1: That is that is? That is um, pretty pretty good

1593
01:24:01,600 --> 01:24:05,720
Speaker 1: advice in my opinion. I want to say something kind

1594
01:24:05,760 --> 01:24:09,160
Speaker 1: of briefly just in general about general strikes, because I

1595
01:24:09,160 --> 01:24:12,920
Speaker 1: think we've talked about it a lot on here, but

1596
01:24:13,400 --> 01:24:15,920
Speaker 1: they're really really hard. I mean, there there, there's there's

1597
01:24:15,960 --> 01:24:18,120
Speaker 1: an example, like and like just to just to get

1598
01:24:18,160 --> 01:24:20,200
Speaker 1: a picture of like how how actually hard it is

1599
01:24:20,200 --> 01:24:22,559
Speaker 1: to pull off. There was there was one in Sudan

1600
01:24:22,680 --> 01:24:25,600
Speaker 1: in in summer nineteen and you know, I mean this

1601
01:24:25,640 --> 01:24:27,439
Speaker 1: is this is in the middle of the revolution, right

1602
01:24:28,000 --> 01:24:32,519
Speaker 1: the the Sudan is incredibly highly organized, as incredibly militant.

1603
01:24:32,600 --> 01:24:35,080
Speaker 1: People have been like you know, I mean people like

1604
01:24:35,439 --> 01:24:38,920
Speaker 1: the like the chance in the street is like you

1605
01:24:38,960 --> 01:24:42,559
Speaker 1: cannot kill us. We already dead, like you know they

1606
01:24:42,600 --> 01:24:45,160
Speaker 1: and you know, and and it's the whole revolution is

1607
01:24:45,200 --> 01:24:47,800
Speaker 1: being led by the Student Professional Association, which is an

1608
01:24:47,840 --> 01:24:51,280
Speaker 1: association of like seventeen trade unions. Right, so this this

1609
01:24:51,320 --> 01:24:55,479
Speaker 1: is a population that is enormously better organized than like

1610
01:24:55,600 --> 01:24:59,040
Speaker 1: anything really that exists in the US. And you know,

1611
01:24:59,160 --> 01:25:00,720
Speaker 1: in in the middle of the summer at the army

1612
01:25:00,760 --> 01:25:03,680
Speaker 1: opens fire and starts killing protesters, and so they call

1613
01:25:03,760 --> 01:25:06,640
Speaker 1: general strike and you know, the turnout is massive, right,

1614
01:25:06,640 --> 01:25:08,720
Speaker 1: they have millions, millions upon millions of people show up

1615
01:25:08,720 --> 01:25:12,760
Speaker 1: to the strike, and on day one is successful, and

1616
01:25:12,800 --> 01:25:14,840
Speaker 1: then on day two of the strike, people start having

1617
01:25:14,880 --> 01:25:16,960
Speaker 1: to pull out, especially people the informal sector, because even

1618
01:25:17,000 --> 01:25:19,080
Speaker 1: with the level of organization they have, they can't support everyone.

1619
01:25:19,600 --> 01:25:22,040
Speaker 1: And by about day three, most of the strike is

1620
01:25:22,040 --> 01:25:25,639
Speaker 1: collapsed because even even with levels organization they had, even

1621
01:25:25,720 --> 01:25:28,240
Speaker 1: with you know, the coordination, even with the fact that

1622
01:25:28,240 --> 01:25:31,160
Speaker 1: they're in the middle of revolution, they just they couldn't

1623
01:25:31,200 --> 01:25:34,120
Speaker 1: support particularly people in the informal sector. So this stuff

1624
01:25:34,200 --> 01:25:39,200
Speaker 1: is really really really hard, and yeah, it is even

1625
01:25:39,280 --> 01:25:42,960
Speaker 1: it is definitely hard. Yeah, like even even highly organized,

1626
01:25:43,040 --> 01:25:46,880
Speaker 1: highly motivated people who are you know, like literally willing

1627
01:25:46,920 --> 01:25:50,760
Speaker 1: to fight to the death will lose. And that's that's

1628
01:25:50,800 --> 01:25:52,840
Speaker 1: something that you have to sort of keep in minds

1629
01:25:53,040 --> 01:25:55,200
Speaker 1: think when you're talking about this, because a lot of

1630
01:25:55,240 --> 01:25:58,240
Speaker 1: people are more focused on the kind of their individual resignations,

1631
01:25:58,320 --> 01:26:00,519
Speaker 1: finding other ways of making money, and just slacking off

1632
01:26:00,560 --> 01:26:02,600
Speaker 1: at work in general, because those are a lot a

1633
01:26:02,600 --> 01:26:04,960
Speaker 1: lot easier than trying to organize a general, a mass

1634
01:26:05,080 --> 01:26:07,200
Speaker 1: at general strike right now. And I think one of

1635
01:26:07,200 --> 01:26:09,880
Speaker 1: the really optimistic things about this whole anti work thing

1636
01:26:09,920 --> 01:26:13,360
Speaker 1: in including including the suburn, is that it has made

1637
01:26:13,400 --> 01:26:16,559
Speaker 1: some big executives kind of nervous. Um. There was a

1638
01:26:16,600 --> 01:26:20,439
Speaker 1: fantastic article by Yahoo Finance that by fantastic I mean

1639
01:26:20,520 --> 01:26:23,720
Speaker 1: funny for me. You know, they did not think it

1640
01:26:23,760 --> 01:26:26,920
Speaker 1: was as funny. Um about they talked with like the

1641
01:26:27,280 --> 01:26:32,760
Speaker 1: Golden Sacks CEO of and uh and they pointed to

1642
01:26:33,240 --> 01:26:36,760
Speaker 1: the anti work subarate it of being what was the

1643
01:26:36,760 --> 01:26:41,760
Speaker 1: what was the phrase, um, a long run risk to

1644
01:26:42,000 --> 01:26:47,080
Speaker 1: to labor force participation? Good? This is see that that

1645
01:26:47,080 --> 01:26:49,479
Speaker 1: When I first read that in the article, I just

1646
01:26:49,560 --> 01:26:52,519
Speaker 1: like flashed to my head in my head to that

1647
01:26:52,600 --> 01:26:56,880
Speaker 1: scene from Starship Troopers where Neil Patrick Harris puts his

1648
01:26:56,920 --> 01:27:02,280
Speaker 1: hand on the brain bug. It goes, it's afraid some raid. Yeah. Yeah,

1649
01:27:02,360 --> 01:27:06,360
Speaker 1: he said, uh, we see some risk that workers were

1650
01:27:06,400 --> 01:27:09,320
Speaker 1: elected will elect to maintain out of the workforce for longer,

1651
01:27:09,520 --> 01:27:13,200
Speaker 1: provided they can afford to do so. Of pretty pretty

1652
01:27:13,280 --> 01:27:16,799
Speaker 1: good stuff. And I think and everything that's worth mentioning

1653
01:27:16,800 --> 01:27:19,120
Speaker 1: that hasn't been talked about very much is that so

1654
01:27:19,320 --> 01:27:21,439
Speaker 1: this is actually kind of working in some sense, Like

1655
01:27:21,479 --> 01:27:26,240
Speaker 1: the last few months in general, last few months particular

1656
01:27:26,400 --> 01:27:29,280
Speaker 1: have seen basically like the highest levels of wage increases

1657
01:27:29,320 --> 01:27:32,960
Speaker 1: that we've seen in decades. So you know, like, yeah,

1658
01:27:32,960 --> 01:27:36,120
Speaker 1: we haven't overthrown capitalism yet. But like, if you can

1659
01:27:36,200 --> 01:27:38,559
Speaker 1: keep quitting your job, keep quitting your job at at

1660
01:27:38,600 --> 01:27:42,959
Speaker 1: your regular job, work less, keep doing it, it's working. Yeah,

1661
01:27:43,000 --> 01:27:46,639
Speaker 1: this is stuff I wish we need to in the future.

1662
01:27:46,800 --> 01:27:49,160
Speaker 1: I would like us to be focusing more on stuff

1663
01:27:49,200 --> 01:27:51,759
Speaker 1: like that, like this that is legitimately, as you point out, Chris,

1664
01:27:51,800 --> 01:27:54,160
Speaker 1: there's a lot of reasons to be very optimistic about

1665
01:27:54,200 --> 01:27:57,360
Speaker 1: about some of the numbers that we're getting from what

1666
01:27:57,560 --> 01:28:01,519
Speaker 1: is happening to labor right now. Um, and it is

1667
01:28:01,560 --> 01:28:04,439
Speaker 1: important as we all like right now we're all miserable

1668
01:28:04,439 --> 01:28:06,880
Speaker 1: because we're sweating through the rittenhouse case, it is important

1669
01:28:06,920 --> 01:28:09,240
Speaker 1: to talk about stuff like that that like, yeah, some

1670
01:28:09,320 --> 01:28:12,800
Speaker 1: ship people is doing is hitting home. Some motherfucker's have

1671
01:28:12,840 --> 01:28:16,960
Speaker 1: found the glowy vulnerable spot on the Boss Monster and

1672
01:28:17,000 --> 01:28:22,160
Speaker 1: it's yeah, it's just not working. Yeah. Like again, as

1673
01:28:22,200 --> 01:28:25,240
Speaker 1: we started the series with, like yeah, general strike is

1674
01:28:25,240 --> 01:28:29,040
Speaker 1: is kind of the best available solution, um or a

1675
01:28:29,080 --> 01:28:33,839
Speaker 1: path to a solution that I can find. Um But anyway,

1676
01:28:34,200 --> 01:28:36,640
Speaker 1: uh what what what what what? What? I think I

1677
01:28:36,640 --> 01:28:38,720
Speaker 1: think that that does it for us today. I know

1678
01:28:42,720 --> 01:28:47,920
Speaker 1: special special like sequel stuff happening. Uh so tune in

1679
01:28:48,200 --> 01:28:52,360
Speaker 1: tomorrow for our list, and like like all of the

1680
01:28:52,400 --> 01:28:56,759
Speaker 1: best sequels, this one will be directed by James Cameron. UM.

1681
01:28:56,840 --> 01:28:59,760
Speaker 1: So we're all very excited to bring our pal j

1682
01:29:00,120 --> 01:29:02,519
Speaker 1: sch the pod, to bring our pal James and the

1683
01:29:02,560 --> 01:29:06,400
Speaker 1: reanimated corpse of Stan Winston. Um. It's going to be amazing.

1684
01:29:06,720 --> 01:29:26,040
Speaker 1: So check it out by everybody. Fuck work, Hey, hey, hey, hey,

1685
01:29:26,880 --> 01:29:30,120
Speaker 1: good introduction. I'm Robert Evans. This is it could happen here.

1686
01:29:30,280 --> 01:29:34,000
Speaker 1: That was Chris Garrison's also here, so is Sophie, who

1687
01:29:34,080 --> 01:29:36,720
Speaker 1: is changing her name to Sophie. What is your new name?

1688
01:29:37,240 --> 01:29:40,559
Speaker 1: Sophie dot Com Arena, Sophie dot Com Arena. She's doing

1689
01:29:40,560 --> 01:29:42,080
Speaker 1: this to deal with the trauma of the fact that

1690
01:29:42,160 --> 01:29:44,360
Speaker 1: Los Angeles just agreed to change the name of the

1691
01:29:44,479 --> 01:29:49,200
Speaker 1: Chase Bank Arena to the Crypto dot Com Center. Oh,

1692
01:29:49,240 --> 01:29:52,840
Speaker 1: Staples Center, Sorry, I'm getting my arena's named after Veno

1693
01:29:53,000 --> 01:30:00,519
Speaker 1: Brand's mixed up Nay. Speaking of the pointlessness of work,

1694
01:30:01,120 --> 01:30:05,200
Speaker 1: there are people laboring right now who worked at Staples

1695
01:30:05,320 --> 01:30:07,439
Speaker 1: so that Staples would have enough money to name a

1696
01:30:07,439 --> 01:30:10,040
Speaker 1: place where people go do sports after a place where

1697
01:30:10,040 --> 01:30:15,840
Speaker 1: people get fucking pencils. Um. And now Staples has declined

1698
01:30:15,960 --> 01:30:20,799
Speaker 1: enough that it's just crypto dot com. Fucking Crypto dot Com,

1699
01:30:20,800 --> 01:30:26,719
Speaker 1: book Upon, Look Upon the Worst Cryptocurrency e formerly Mighty

1700
01:30:26,840 --> 01:30:32,280
Speaker 1: Staples in despair, fucking the osman dius of the Office

1701
01:30:32,280 --> 01:30:35,599
Speaker 1: supply World. I don't know, whatever, what are we talking about?

1702
01:30:36,040 --> 01:30:41,160
Speaker 1: We're going to no that comes in the middle, but

1703
01:30:41,479 --> 01:30:43,759
Speaker 1: right now we're gonna go to a place where they

1704
01:30:43,960 --> 01:30:46,960
Speaker 1: banned crypto mining for the most part. So and that

1705
01:30:46,960 --> 01:30:50,240
Speaker 1: that place is China. And I wanted to talk about

1706
01:30:50,840 --> 01:30:53,040
Speaker 1: specifically a lot of us been going on the Chinese Internet,

1707
01:30:53,120 --> 01:30:57,519
Speaker 1: what's been going on Chinese labor because so Garrison Garrison

1708
01:30:57,520 --> 01:30:59,559
Speaker 1: told me we're doing the Atgework episode, and I went, oh, yeah,

1709
01:30:59,600 --> 01:31:02,559
Speaker 1: there's a there's you know, there's a version of this

1710
01:31:02,600 --> 01:31:05,759
Speaker 1: in China. And then I realized that like a almost

1711
01:31:05,760 --> 01:31:08,559
Speaker 1: no one has heard of lying flat and be it

1712
01:31:08,800 --> 01:31:11,760
Speaker 1: rules and see that nobody really know in the US

1713
01:31:11,880 --> 01:31:14,040
Speaker 1: knows what's going on in the Chinese Internet because it's

1714
01:31:14,840 --> 01:31:17,360
Speaker 1: effectively siloed. And I mean, you know, there's there's there's

1715
01:31:17,360 --> 01:31:18,960
Speaker 1: there's there's lots of different way to silo. I mean

1716
01:31:18,960 --> 01:31:21,679
Speaker 1: there's there's literally the Great Firewall, there's factors in different languages,

1717
01:31:21,720 --> 01:31:23,400
Speaker 1: people use different apps, and you know, the Internet has

1718
01:31:23,400 --> 01:31:25,680
Speaker 1: become this sort of like you know, it's it's it's

1719
01:31:25,720 --> 01:31:27,800
Speaker 1: it's a bunch of bubbles that don't interact with each other. Yeah,

1720
01:31:27,800 --> 01:31:30,599
Speaker 1: the wald Garden thing, and it's you know, the sort

1721
01:31:30,600 --> 01:31:34,320
Speaker 1: of national level wald Garden stuff is I think in

1722
01:31:34,360 --> 01:31:37,519
Speaker 1: a lot of ways, way more dangerous than the stuff

1723
01:31:37,560 --> 01:31:39,400
Speaker 1: you know that like people complaining about if what sucond

1724
01:31:39,400 --> 01:31:41,400
Speaker 1: Audie logical bubble and like that's bad. But the fact

1725
01:31:41,400 --> 01:31:45,760
Speaker 1: that we have bubbles like this where it's like you know,

1726
01:31:46,120 --> 01:31:49,519
Speaker 1: the like with with like actual they basically borders but

1727
01:31:49,640 --> 01:31:54,120
Speaker 1: online Yeah, yeah, because they're enforced by governments with forces. Yeah. Yeah,

1728
01:31:54,200 --> 01:31:57,280
Speaker 1: the place it was always going to go. Um, once

1729
01:31:57,320 --> 01:32:00,240
Speaker 1: we decided not to be rad with the internet, which

1730
01:32:00,240 --> 01:32:07,560
Speaker 1: everyone collectively decided in I'm going to say one thousand four. Yeah,

1731
01:32:07,760 --> 01:32:09,640
Speaker 1: do you think do you think do do you think?

1732
01:32:09,680 --> 01:32:13,479
Speaker 1: Do you think that was nine eleven fault? Nine eleven

1733
01:32:13,479 --> 01:32:16,360
Speaker 1: played a role. Nine eleven did play a role. Um,

1734
01:32:16,520 --> 01:32:19,519
Speaker 1: the dot com boom played another role. Um, there were

1735
01:32:19,520 --> 01:32:23,519
Speaker 1: there there there were a number of factors. Um, but

1736
01:32:24,080 --> 01:32:27,080
Speaker 1: we can all blame it on let's blame it on

1737
01:32:27,120 --> 01:32:31,240
Speaker 1: low tax and continue so anti work in China before

1738
01:32:31,240 --> 01:32:34,400
Speaker 1: we get into lying flat, which is China's version of

1739
01:32:34,400 --> 01:32:37,400
Speaker 1: anti work. Isn't the right word because this actually started

1740
01:32:37,400 --> 01:32:40,880
Speaker 1: a few months before sort of anti work blew up

1741
01:32:40,880 --> 01:32:43,479
Speaker 1: in the US. But before we fully get into that,

1742
01:32:44,680 --> 01:32:46,280
Speaker 1: to understand what's going on here, we need to talk

1743
01:32:46,280 --> 01:32:49,840
Speaker 1: about something called involution. And did you say that again?

1744
01:32:49,880 --> 01:32:56,640
Speaker 1: Like inval involution in involution? Yeah, so this this, this

1745
01:32:56,680 --> 01:32:59,840
Speaker 1: is this is originally this is a very obscure anthropological

1746
01:33:00,240 --> 01:33:04,120
Speaker 1: developed by my old nemesis, Clifford Geertz, who's one of

1747
01:33:04,240 --> 01:33:07,080
Speaker 1: the most famous and most important anthropologists in history, who

1748
01:33:07,120 --> 01:33:09,840
Speaker 1: also sucks ass and I hate him. I thought your

1749
01:33:09,920 --> 01:33:14,480
Speaker 1: nemesis was Noam Chomsky. Yes, also, but for different reasons.

1750
01:33:14,600 --> 01:33:19,400
Speaker 1: Should I cancel the hit sub sub nemesis something I

1751
01:33:19,840 --> 01:33:22,080
Speaker 1: have many? I have many nemesses that I have been

1752
01:33:22,200 --> 01:33:27,679
Speaker 1: on the side God here, Jodi Dean episode at some point. Now,

1753
01:33:28,600 --> 01:33:32,960
Speaker 1: thank you. I appreciate allies in my one person intellectual wars,

1754
01:33:34,040 --> 01:33:36,519
Speaker 1: although this does seem to be a pretty boring intellectual war.

1755
01:33:37,880 --> 01:33:43,800
Speaker 1: Yeah said most of them. Yeah yeah, but what what

1756
01:33:43,800 --> 01:33:46,200
Speaker 1: what Gears was describing? Basically, so she doesn't feel work

1757
01:33:46,200 --> 01:33:49,599
Speaker 1: in Java? And what are you describing what what involution means.

1758
01:33:49,640 --> 01:33:51,880
Speaker 1: It's the system where people keep working harder and harder

1759
01:33:51,920 --> 01:33:54,200
Speaker 1: for there's no increase in output, and so that there's

1760
01:33:54,200 --> 01:33:56,960
Speaker 1: no there's no rewards for working harder. And so you know,

1761
01:33:57,120 --> 01:33:59,400
Speaker 1: in Java, you'd have these plantations, right, and the plantations

1762
01:33:59,360 --> 01:34:01,479
Speaker 1: would get bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. But

1763
01:34:01,760 --> 01:34:04,439
Speaker 1: because each new person was only like harvesting just enough

1764
01:34:04,479 --> 01:34:08,160
Speaker 1: to feed themselves, you never actually got any productivity increases.

1765
01:34:08,160 --> 01:34:10,920
Speaker 1: And so you know, yeah, there's no there's no output

1766
01:34:10,960 --> 01:34:15,200
Speaker 1: increases and in really the case in America in a

1767
01:34:15,200 --> 01:34:19,200
Speaker 1: lot of ways. Yeah, and what's interesting, Well, okay, so

1768
01:34:19,640 --> 01:34:21,400
Speaker 1: the reason I want to talk about this also is

1769
01:34:21,439 --> 01:34:25,320
Speaker 1: because basically everyone who's been writing about this sormation news

1770
01:34:25,320 --> 01:34:27,840
Speaker 1: outlets has missed about half of the story of how

1771
01:34:28,000 --> 01:34:31,600
Speaker 1: how this like incredibly obscure anthropological term that like I

1772
01:34:31,640 --> 01:34:33,599
Speaker 1: don't like again, I was an anthropology major. I don't

1773
01:34:33,640 --> 01:34:35,439
Speaker 1: think I ever ran into involution while like while I

1774
01:34:35,479 --> 01:34:39,120
Speaker 1: was studying anthropology. Yeah, and no one has ever heard

1775
01:34:39,120 --> 01:34:42,960
Speaker 1: of this, Like fucking everyone in China has like it's

1776
01:34:43,000 --> 01:34:47,719
Speaker 1: like a treatise they can spout at you about this now. Um. Yeah,

1777
01:34:47,760 --> 01:34:49,160
Speaker 1: and and you know I want to talk a bit

1778
01:34:49,160 --> 01:34:52,400
Speaker 1: about how to emerge. And part of this is because

1779
01:34:53,439 --> 01:34:56,080
Speaker 1: you know, in the last about two years, people be

1780
01:34:56,080 --> 01:34:59,080
Speaker 1: getting increasingly piste off at you know, just the sort

1781
01:34:59,080 --> 01:35:02,320
Speaker 1: of incredibly comp editive nature of Chinese society and particularly work.

1782
01:35:02,520 --> 01:35:05,280
Speaker 1: And you know a lot of this is because everyone's

1783
01:35:05,320 --> 01:35:08,719
Speaker 1: working what's what's called, which is nine am to nine pm,

1784
01:35:08,760 --> 01:35:11,120
Speaker 1: six days a week. And as actually do you make

1785
01:35:11,120 --> 01:35:13,599
Speaker 1: this good? When I say everyone, that's like an average schedule.

1786
01:35:13,640 --> 01:35:15,920
Speaker 1: The schedules get a lot worse than that, but the

1787
01:35:16,040 --> 01:35:17,680
Speaker 1: nine six is the one that sort of gets the

1788
01:35:17,680 --> 01:35:20,040
Speaker 1: attention because a lot of people work in especially the

1789
01:35:20,080 --> 01:35:22,519
Speaker 1: tech industry. This is you know, as we do. But

1790
01:35:22,640 --> 01:35:24,679
Speaker 1: you know, everyone focused on the tech industry, everyone ignores

1791
01:35:24,760 --> 01:35:27,120
Speaker 1: a bunch of market workers who also do this and worse.

1792
01:35:28,040 --> 01:35:30,519
Speaker 1: And you know, there's just a normal societal pressure to

1793
01:35:30,560 --> 01:35:32,920
Speaker 1: sort of keep moving and keep competing and keep working.

1794
01:35:33,040 --> 01:35:36,280
Speaker 1: And simultaneously, you know, people in China today are working

1795
01:35:36,840 --> 01:35:40,360
Speaker 1: like basically as hard as anyone's worked in China since

1796
01:35:40,439 --> 01:35:43,000
Speaker 1: like people would literally collapse a bostion in the fields

1797
01:35:43,000 --> 01:35:46,080
Speaker 1: and the great leap forward, like that's a lot of

1798
01:35:46,080 --> 01:35:49,960
Speaker 1: people are working this hard. And but but instead of

1799
01:35:50,040 --> 01:35:52,360
Speaker 1: you know, getting rewards for this. Chinese growth rates have

1800
01:35:52,400 --> 01:35:56,559
Speaker 1: been collapsing for a decade, and yeah, this is you know,

1801
01:35:56,600 --> 01:35:57,800
Speaker 1: this is this is the thing that you get. In

1802
01:35:57,840 --> 01:35:59,479
Speaker 1: the U s too, was like well okay, people were like, well,

1803
01:35:59,479 --> 01:36:01,280
Speaker 1: if you work out to get into the middle class,

1804
01:36:01,320 --> 01:36:04,760
Speaker 1: but then you know everyone's working nine six, No one's

1805
01:36:04,760 --> 01:36:08,040
Speaker 1: getting into the middle class. The like, China has incredibly

1806
01:36:08,080 --> 01:36:12,400
Speaker 1: low rates of social ability, and you know it into

1807
01:36:12,479 --> 01:36:16,040
Speaker 1: this comes involution. But the weird part of what what's

1808
01:36:16,040 --> 01:36:22,440
Speaker 1: happening here is that involution doesn't enter the Chinese discourse

1809
01:36:23,040 --> 01:36:26,240
Speaker 1: through like people complaining about work. It's it's actually a

1810
01:36:26,240 --> 01:36:28,760
Speaker 1: product of a bunch of middle class people complaining about

1811
01:36:28,800 --> 01:36:31,320
Speaker 1: Chinese industrial policy. And this is the hardest story that

1812
01:36:31,320 --> 01:36:33,400
Speaker 1: nobody really talks about, even though I think it's it's

1813
01:36:33,400 --> 01:36:37,240
Speaker 1: really interesting because again, like this, you know, anti anti

1814
01:36:37,240 --> 01:36:40,920
Speaker 1: work in in the US stars and the left right involution,

1815
01:36:41,000 --> 01:36:42,599
Speaker 1: which is the thing that's going to bring about sort

1816
01:36:42,600 --> 01:36:45,080
Speaker 1: of the Chinese version of anti work is the right

1817
01:36:45,080 --> 01:36:48,840
Speaker 1: way is originally right wing discourse, um and and it's interesting,

1818
01:36:48,880 --> 01:36:51,640
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a right wing, very nationalist discourse that

1819
01:36:51,680 --> 01:36:53,559
Speaker 1: gets you know, the right wing part of it gets

1820
01:36:53,640 --> 01:36:57,880
Speaker 1: essentially expunged and it gets pulled left. So originally, you know,

1821
01:36:58,400 --> 01:37:02,160
Speaker 1: China is h I don't have a more elegant way

1822
01:37:02,200 --> 01:37:05,439
Speaker 1: of saying this than China's leaders and more online than ours,

1823
01:37:06,280 --> 01:37:09,639
Speaker 1: like significantly more like they actually that's right, that's hard

1824
01:37:09,680 --> 01:37:15,759
Speaker 1: to abash it. It's people people like like local government

1825
01:37:15,880 --> 01:37:19,799
Speaker 1: offices right have like they have these like internal sites

1826
01:37:20,160 --> 01:37:22,720
Speaker 1: that like show them what people are posting. And this

1827
01:37:22,720 --> 01:37:24,000
Speaker 1: this goes from the from the bottom levels, it goes

1828
01:37:24,040 --> 01:37:27,719
Speaker 1: away to the top. Like people actually listen to bloggers,

1829
01:37:27,720 --> 01:37:29,360
Speaker 1: like like they're there, you know some of them, some

1830
01:37:29,400 --> 01:37:31,680
Speaker 1: of the people I'm about to talk about it are

1831
01:37:31,720 --> 01:37:34,080
Speaker 1: incredibly influential. And there's a bunch of arguments in the

1832
01:37:34,080 --> 01:37:36,640
Speaker 1: early two thousands about how China is gonna industrialize and

1833
01:37:36,680 --> 01:37:41,479
Speaker 1: these are basically online arguments. Um and the guys who

1834
01:37:41,479 --> 01:37:45,879
Speaker 1: win that argument, right, she Shanping basically takes their industrial

1835
01:37:45,880 --> 01:37:48,519
Speaker 1: policy and implements it, which is you know, which is

1836
01:37:48,520 --> 01:37:50,519
Speaker 1: which is scales? Like how online these people are that Like, yeah,

1837
01:37:50,520 --> 01:37:53,080
Speaker 1: people are taking acont policy from like literally, I mean,

1838
01:37:53,120 --> 01:37:54,639
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's not solely that I don't take

1839
01:37:54,640 --> 01:37:57,439
Speaker 1: a policy. People arguing on the internet. This is this

1840
01:37:57,479 --> 01:38:00,400
Speaker 1: is an incredibly online society and it you know, but

1841
01:38:00,640 --> 01:38:02,840
Speaker 1: the worst part is that for a while it works.

1842
01:38:04,080 --> 01:38:05,920
Speaker 1: You know that the ECHINAR policy basically is they're getting

1843
01:38:05,920 --> 01:38:07,880
Speaker 1: increased the size of the Chinese economy by investing in

1844
01:38:07,920 --> 01:38:09,960
Speaker 1: sort of high tech industry and moving up the value chain.

1845
01:38:10,000 --> 01:38:11,760
Speaker 1: This this has been very standards or Chinese second on

1846
01:38:11,800 --> 01:38:14,479
Speaker 1: policy for a while. Um, the problem is in the

1847
01:38:14,520 --> 01:38:18,680
Speaker 1: last about decade, it's it's it's stopped working. And you know,

1848
01:38:18,720 --> 01:38:21,200
Speaker 1: the CCPs response was to do more financialization, and this

1849
01:38:21,280 --> 01:38:23,960
Speaker 1: piste off the like the the online they were they

1850
01:38:23,960 --> 01:38:25,720
Speaker 1: were called like the industrial Party. This this is off

1851
01:38:25,720 --> 01:38:28,760
Speaker 1: those guys because you know, the whole thing was don't financialize,

1852
01:38:28,840 --> 01:38:32,040
Speaker 1: just keep investing in like building airplanes and stuff, and

1853
01:38:32,040 --> 01:38:36,160
Speaker 1: the Chinese economies will work itself out. And but eventually

1854
01:38:36,200 --> 01:38:39,160
Speaker 1: even they can't keep making this argument because you know,

1855
01:38:39,240 --> 01:38:41,160
Speaker 1: I mean like like he doesn't tend right, Like the

1856
01:38:41,479 --> 01:38:44,639
Speaker 1: Chinese GDP growth rate was ten percent and now it's

1857
01:38:44,680 --> 01:38:47,519
Speaker 1: like maybe five and last year, I mean last year twenties,

1858
01:38:47,600 --> 01:38:49,120
Speaker 1: so you know it was really low. But I mean

1859
01:38:49,160 --> 01:38:53,720
Speaker 1: the Chinese growth rate has been imploding. And so what

1860
01:38:54,000 --> 01:38:55,280
Speaker 1: you get out of this is is this group of

1861
01:38:55,320 --> 01:38:59,679
Speaker 1: people called the Cooists based on this guy named Cow. Okay,

1862
01:38:59,680 --> 01:39:02,600
Speaker 1: so how is the guy who who who essentially introduces

1863
01:39:03,000 --> 01:39:07,880
Speaker 1: the concept of involution and he's arguing that this is

1864
01:39:07,920 --> 01:39:12,320
Speaker 1: happening because I'm gonna quote him here, people can't get

1865
01:39:12,400 --> 01:39:15,160
Speaker 1: quote a peaceful life, get a pretty girl, live in

1866
01:39:15,160 --> 01:39:18,360
Speaker 1: a big house because of the US. And so there's

1867
01:39:18,400 --> 01:39:20,800
Speaker 1: the solution to this, basically is is to deal with

1868
01:39:20,880 --> 01:39:23,240
Speaker 1: but to destroy America as a hedgemon. And then once

1869
01:39:23,320 --> 01:39:26,040
Speaker 1: you do that, you know you can get all of

1870
01:39:26,080 --> 01:39:27,800
Speaker 1: these things. And as you can tell, like, you know, okay,

1871
01:39:28,240 --> 01:39:30,280
Speaker 1: peaceful life, get a pretty girl, live in a big house.

1872
01:39:30,320 --> 01:39:33,840
Speaker 1: This this is like a very conservative framing of this. Yeah, yeah,

1873
01:39:33,840 --> 01:39:35,479
Speaker 1: I mean this is this is the Chinese equivalent of

1874
01:39:35,560 --> 01:39:37,280
Speaker 1: two point five kids in a white picket fence. And

1875
01:39:37,360 --> 01:39:39,439
Speaker 1: it has all of this sort of associated gender politics

1876
01:39:39,439 --> 01:39:42,439
Speaker 1: and class politics to go along with that. And you know,

1877
01:39:42,560 --> 01:39:44,919
Speaker 1: and when when Cow and the Cows you're talking about involution,

1878
01:39:44,920 --> 01:39:47,439
Speaker 1: what they're talking about is they're literally they literally mean

1879
01:39:47,520 --> 01:39:50,240
Speaker 1: Chinese diegnated economy, right, so that they're talking about, okay,

1880
01:39:50,240 --> 01:39:52,200
Speaker 1: that you have more inputs, you have labor, technology inputs,

1881
01:39:52,240 --> 01:39:54,000
Speaker 1: but the output for input is declining, and the only

1882
01:39:54,040 --> 01:39:57,120
Speaker 1: way to restore economic growth the chief prosperity is by

1883
01:39:57,160 --> 01:40:01,599
Speaker 1: solving a decline output by defeating the Americans. But you know,

1884
01:40:01,720 --> 01:40:03,680
Speaker 1: and this this is kind of a big deal. And

1885
01:40:03,760 --> 01:40:06,280
Speaker 1: for a while in sort of like twenty this this is,

1886
01:40:06,360 --> 01:40:10,559
Speaker 1: this is going places, but very quickly people are like,

1887
01:40:10,960 --> 01:40:13,760
Speaker 1: my life fucking sucks, Like I don't care about this

1888
01:40:13,800 --> 01:40:16,760
Speaker 1: econ ship or this like grand national struggle against the

1889
01:40:16,760 --> 01:40:19,160
Speaker 1: world hedgemon, Like I care about the fact that, like

1890
01:40:19,320 --> 01:40:22,360
Speaker 1: my life is this incredibly pointless, ever escalating rat race

1891
01:40:22,400 --> 01:40:25,439
Speaker 1: with like literally no rewards. Yeah, that would that would

1892
01:40:25,439 --> 01:40:27,760
Speaker 1: concern me too, if that were a thing that we

1893
01:40:27,760 --> 01:40:31,200
Speaker 1: were capable of feeling in our country. Yeah, it's why

1894
01:40:31,479 --> 01:40:33,840
Speaker 1: there there's been some really funny stuff with involution, where

1895
01:40:33,840 --> 01:40:37,439
Speaker 1: like you read accounts of it and you'll get like

1896
01:40:37,680 --> 01:40:39,720
Speaker 1: anthropologists going like, oh, yeah, this is this is the

1897
01:40:39,760 --> 01:40:41,519
Speaker 1: thing that this is the thing that's unique to China,

1898
01:40:41,560 --> 01:40:45,400
Speaker 1: and it's like have have you worked a job in

1899
01:40:45,400 --> 01:40:51,240
Speaker 1: in the US? Like, but you know involution, you know

1900
01:40:51,520 --> 01:40:53,360
Speaker 1: what happens to it over over the course of sort

1901
01:40:53,360 --> 01:40:56,640
Speaker 1: of it goes from being the general you know, it

1902
01:40:56,760 --> 01:40:58,360
Speaker 1: goes it goes from being this thing that's about like

1903
01:40:59,000 --> 01:41:02,799
Speaker 1: very specific like technical industrial arguments about industrial policy too

1904
01:41:03,880 --> 01:41:06,880
Speaker 1: is when one anthropologists put it, quote the experience of

1905
01:41:06,920 --> 01:41:10,120
Speaker 1: being locked in competition that one ultimately knows as meaningless.

1906
01:41:11,760 --> 01:41:15,640
Speaker 1: And so people are, yeah, we couldn't, we couldn't imagine that.

1907
01:41:15,720 --> 01:41:19,519
Speaker 1: This is yeah, and it's you know, and people people

1908
01:41:19,520 --> 01:41:23,200
Speaker 1: start talking about finding individual solutions to this, and so

1909
01:41:23,320 --> 01:41:25,120
Speaker 1: you know, then this is things like working last, moving

1910
01:41:25,160 --> 01:41:29,800
Speaker 1: to lower tier cities, getting less protgious jobs. Um, but

1911
01:41:29,880 --> 01:41:31,559
Speaker 1: you know, and I want to think about this again

1912
01:41:31,600 --> 01:41:36,120
Speaker 1: because this this is a really interesting thing where you

1913
01:41:36,200 --> 01:41:40,760
Speaker 1: have a very incredibly right wing, nationalistic and sort of

1914
01:41:40,800 --> 01:41:45,040
Speaker 1: like like middle class like nostalgia kind of like you know,

1915
01:41:46,000 --> 01:41:50,880
Speaker 1: like Milt aggressive foreign policy thing and then it just

1916
01:41:51,280 --> 01:41:54,800
Speaker 1: flips and and part of how it flips and this

1917
01:41:54,840 --> 01:41:58,639
Speaker 1: is a part of the story that is almost completely ignored,

1918
01:41:58,720 --> 01:42:00,880
Speaker 1: but I think it's really important. Did you guys know

1919
01:42:00,880 --> 01:42:04,080
Speaker 1: about There's the YouTuber named leads It. She she's the

1920
01:42:04,120 --> 01:42:07,599
Speaker 1: biggest Chinese YouTuber. She has sixteen million followers, and most

1921
01:42:07,600 --> 01:42:09,800
Speaker 1: of her followers are not on YouTube because you know,

1922
01:42:09,840 --> 01:42:12,920
Speaker 1: YouTube like blocked by the firewall, but she has she

1923
01:42:12,960 --> 01:42:17,479
Speaker 1: has fifty five million followers on the sort of Chinese

1924
01:42:17,560 --> 01:42:20,519
Speaker 1: version of TikTok, and yeah, she has across the world.

1925
01:42:20,520 --> 01:42:23,040
Speaker 1: She has a hundred million followers, right she she's she's

1926
01:42:23,080 --> 01:42:25,080
Speaker 1: one of the biggest media stars in the world. And

1927
01:42:25,800 --> 01:42:28,720
Speaker 1: her origins are kind of unclear. The like official biography

1928
01:42:29,040 --> 01:42:31,040
Speaker 1: basically says that like when she was twelve, instead of

1929
01:42:31,040 --> 01:42:33,200
Speaker 1: going to high school, she's being a waitress, and then

1930
01:42:33,240 --> 01:42:34,800
Speaker 1: she had to like you know, but she she she'd

1931
01:42:34,800 --> 01:42:36,080
Speaker 1: gone to the city and then she had to return

1932
01:42:36,120 --> 01:42:38,360
Speaker 1: to Revels to take care of her grandma. And she

1933
01:42:38,439 --> 01:42:41,920
Speaker 1: makes his videos that are these like very soft and

1934
01:42:42,040 --> 01:42:44,720
Speaker 1: calming videos or like calming music of her going into

1935
01:42:44,760 --> 01:42:47,559
Speaker 1: the woods and like harvesting materials and making fires out

1936
01:42:47,560 --> 01:42:51,720
Speaker 1: of logs and like cooking things. Okay, and it's it's

1937
01:42:51,760 --> 01:42:53,240
Speaker 1: it's just like it's you know, it's it's very much

1938
01:42:53,280 --> 01:42:57,599
Speaker 1: this this really utopianism. There's there's basically no industrial technology

1939
01:42:57,880 --> 01:43:02,240
Speaker 1: like cottage coor returned to nature. Yeah. Yeah, I know

1940
01:43:02,280 --> 01:43:03,840
Speaker 1: a lot of people who watched it like that just

1941
01:43:03,880 --> 01:43:05,880
Speaker 1: to like soothe them after a day of work. Like

1942
01:43:06,000 --> 01:43:08,800
Speaker 1: see somebody like dig a cave and turn it into

1943
01:43:08,920 --> 01:43:12,519
Speaker 1: like a bath or something. Using just hand tools or whatever. Yeah,

1944
01:43:12,560 --> 01:43:14,519
Speaker 1: and there's it's interesting this kind of almost like turned

1945
01:43:14,520 --> 01:43:19,360
Speaker 1: into a sub genre. But she's by far the biggest

1946
01:43:19,760 --> 01:43:22,880
Speaker 1: like version of this. And you know, so she she

1947
01:43:22,880 --> 01:43:26,360
Speaker 1: gets picked up by a media company and from goes

1948
01:43:26,439 --> 01:43:30,160
Speaker 1: viral and you know, and interesting because so she's doing

1949
01:43:30,200 --> 01:43:32,599
Speaker 1: this because so she she has to go back to

1950
01:43:32,760 --> 01:43:34,519
Speaker 1: take care of her grandma, and so she like opens

1951
01:43:34,520 --> 01:43:37,000
Speaker 1: a store and she's trying to support herself but and

1952
01:43:37,080 --> 01:43:38,760
Speaker 1: like her grandma by opening a store, and so the

1953
01:43:38,840 --> 01:43:41,360
Speaker 1: videos were like a way to promote the store. And

1954
01:43:41,400 --> 01:43:43,600
Speaker 1: then you know, now she has a hundred million followers

1955
01:43:43,640 --> 01:43:45,559
Speaker 1: and she she gets adopted as this kind of like

1956
01:43:45,560 --> 01:43:49,800
Speaker 1: like national culture ambassador, I guess by the state. Sure,

1957
01:43:50,320 --> 01:43:51,960
Speaker 1: And and it's justestly you know, so there's nothing overtly

1958
01:43:52,000 --> 01:43:54,639
Speaker 1: political about these videos at all, right, which is especially

1959
01:43:54,720 --> 01:43:56,880
Speaker 1: offering and like trying to sell is this you know,

1960
01:43:56,920 --> 01:43:59,840
Speaker 1: this like fantasy of retreat from industrial majority into world life.

1961
01:44:00,080 --> 01:44:02,040
Speaker 1: And I think it's really easy to look at that

1962
01:44:02,120 --> 01:44:04,519
Speaker 1: esthetic can go like this is basically fascist, Like this

1963
01:44:04,560 --> 01:44:07,200
Speaker 1: is reject majority embraced tre it issues. Some people online

1964
01:44:07,479 --> 01:44:10,240
Speaker 1: when they see that immediately sees after I was like, oh, no,

1965
01:44:10,280 --> 01:44:13,920
Speaker 1: it's eco fascist. Um, yes, I think that. Yeah, And

1966
01:44:13,960 --> 01:44:16,400
Speaker 1: I think, you know, and I think like that interpretation,

1967
01:44:16,439 --> 01:44:18,240
Speaker 1: I think is actually a lot of y I got

1968
01:44:18,280 --> 01:44:20,160
Speaker 1: picked up by the Chinese, by Chinese media companies and

1969
01:44:20,160 --> 01:44:23,000
Speaker 1: then like sort of by the Chinese state because you know,

1970
01:44:23,120 --> 01:44:26,559
Speaker 1: like having an actual positive utopian image of rural life

1971
01:44:26,600 --> 01:44:28,160
Speaker 1: is politically useul with them and something that's like not

1972
01:44:28,760 --> 01:44:32,519
Speaker 1: hasn't been true since like we've had this for a

1973
01:44:32,560 --> 01:44:35,639
Speaker 1: long time. Yeah, well no, and I think I would

1974
01:44:35,640 --> 01:44:37,080
Speaker 1: say this. I think this is the thing that's different

1975
01:44:37,080 --> 01:44:39,080
Speaker 1: in China is that there hasn't been like a positive

1976
01:44:39,080 --> 01:44:43,880
Speaker 1: conception of rural life really since I guess the Great

1977
01:44:43,960 --> 01:44:46,200
Speaker 1: le Forwards and then are like there were some people

1978
01:44:46,200 --> 01:44:47,760
Speaker 1: in the Cultural Revolution, but then they actually went there

1979
01:44:47,760 --> 01:44:50,720
Speaker 1: and we're like, oh god, this sucks, and so you know,

1980
01:44:50,800 --> 01:44:52,280
Speaker 1: so they didn't even a new one they come up

1981
01:44:52,280 --> 01:44:55,799
Speaker 1: with this. But you know, the thing that's different about

1982
01:44:55,920 --> 01:44:59,559
Speaker 1: China than the US is that China's might get worker

1983
01:44:59,600 --> 01:45:02,320
Speaker 1: population should like is almost the entire size of the

1984
01:45:02,360 --> 01:45:04,760
Speaker 1: population of the US. I mean it's it's like twenty

1985
01:45:04,800 --> 01:45:07,040
Speaker 1: million people, right, I mean it's it's enormous and a

1986
01:45:07,120 --> 01:45:09,040
Speaker 1: huge number of these people. You know, I'm some of

1987
01:45:09,040 --> 01:45:10,960
Speaker 1: these people are going from like city to city. You're

1988
01:45:11,000 --> 01:45:12,120
Speaker 1: like town of town, but a lot of these people

1989
01:45:12,160 --> 01:45:15,680
Speaker 1: are coming from from rural villages into cities. And you know,

1990
01:45:15,760 --> 01:45:17,160
Speaker 1: I mean these are this is this is the background

1991
01:45:17,160 --> 01:45:18,880
Speaker 1: of the Chinese workforce. And like these people like they

1992
01:45:19,080 --> 01:45:22,559
Speaker 1: see their family once a year because you know, like

1993
01:45:22,600 --> 01:45:24,760
Speaker 1: they can't afford to go home, so they go home

1994
01:45:24,880 --> 01:45:26,519
Speaker 1: once a year for New Year's because they get some time.

1995
01:45:26,560 --> 01:45:29,880
Speaker 1: Often they come back and and this is where you know,

1996
01:45:30,400 --> 01:45:33,640
Speaker 1: like these videos are an obvious fantasy, but you know,

1997
01:45:33,680 --> 01:45:36,040
Speaker 1: they suggest an alternative to work in the capitalist city

1998
01:45:36,080 --> 01:45:37,680
Speaker 1: that's sort of plausible, you know, especially if you come

1999
01:45:37,720 --> 01:45:40,800
Speaker 1: from rural village. And this is where this whole thing

2000
01:45:41,160 --> 01:45:45,439
Speaker 1: completely backfires on the Chinese ruling class. And you know,

2001
01:45:45,479 --> 01:45:48,519
Speaker 1: because this this, this this cowisted involution discourse is about

2002
01:45:48,520 --> 01:45:52,680
Speaker 1: diffuse with this style of rural rural utopianism into a

2003
01:45:52,720 --> 01:45:54,960
Speaker 1: movement that is going to shake the foundation of work itself.

2004
01:45:55,479 --> 01:46:00,400
Speaker 1: But first, but first, ads again all sudden not connecting

2005
01:46:00,439 --> 01:46:04,760
Speaker 1: to anything we're talking. Why Garrison don't even bring that up.

2006
01:46:04,840 --> 01:46:07,400
Speaker 1: There's no needs, there's no reason for people to think

2007
01:46:07,520 --> 01:46:11,160
Speaker 1: about about the fact that about that. Don't think anyway,

2008
01:46:11,280 --> 01:46:16,240
Speaker 1: here's about ads. Yeah, think about the Washington State Highway

2009
01:46:16,240 --> 01:46:19,880
Speaker 1: Patrol primary sponsors. If it could happen here, if it

2010
01:46:19,920 --> 01:46:25,639
Speaker 1: happens to you, you'll want the Washington State Highway Patrol

2011
01:46:27,040 --> 01:46:31,200
Speaker 1: the border. It's so funny. Anyway, we're trying to but

2012
01:46:31,479 --> 01:46:34,200
Speaker 1: I think it's we're working on it. People. I think

2013
01:46:34,240 --> 01:46:39,080
Speaker 1: it's hilarious. Yeah, please don't, please don't join the Washington

2014
01:46:39,160 --> 01:46:44,240
Speaker 1: State Highway Patrol. We're back. And I don't know about y'all,

2015
01:46:44,280 --> 01:46:46,920
Speaker 1: but I thought I knew what I was talking about,

2016
01:46:47,000 --> 01:46:50,160
Speaker 1: and I after those ads, I am fully Washington State

2017
01:46:50,240 --> 01:46:53,839
Speaker 1: Highway Patrol build. I'm on board. Let's do it. Yeah.

2018
01:46:54,000 --> 01:46:57,080
Speaker 1: In April of a guy in Chinese social media makes

2019
01:46:57,120 --> 01:47:02,960
Speaker 1: a post and I'm just gonna started. So, yeah, I'm

2020
01:47:02,960 --> 01:47:04,559
Speaker 1: just gonna read this post because it's kind of short

2021
01:47:04,560 --> 01:47:07,639
Speaker 1: and it rules. I haven't been working for two years.

2022
01:47:07,880 --> 01:47:09,720
Speaker 1: I have just been hanging around, and I don't see

2023
01:47:09,720 --> 01:47:12,639
Speaker 1: anything wrong with This pressure mainly comes from the generation

2024
01:47:12,680 --> 01:47:14,799
Speaker 1: with your peers and the values of the older generation.

2025
01:47:15,200 --> 01:47:18,080
Speaker 1: These pressures keep popping up, but we don't have to

2026
01:47:18,080 --> 01:47:20,680
Speaker 1: abide by these norms. I can live like Diogenes and

2027
01:47:20,720 --> 01:47:24,680
Speaker 1: sleep in a wooden bucket. I can live like Heracletus

2028
01:47:24,720 --> 01:47:27,519
Speaker 1: in a cave thinking about logos. Since this land has

2029
01:47:27,560 --> 01:47:30,160
Speaker 1: never had a school thought that upholds human subjectivity, I

2030
01:47:30,200 --> 01:47:32,560
Speaker 1: can develop one of my own. Lying down is my

2031
01:47:32,600 --> 01:47:35,800
Speaker 1: philosophical movements. Only through lying flat can humans become the

2032
01:47:35,840 --> 01:47:40,639
Speaker 1: measure of all things based. Oh my god, that's the best.

2033
01:47:40,920 --> 01:47:45,519
Speaker 1: I love that. Can I talk about Diogenes now? So

2034
01:47:46,120 --> 01:47:50,040
Speaker 1: my my man Diogenes is he's from this trennd in

2035
01:47:50,160 --> 01:47:53,200
Speaker 1: Greek philosophical thought during kind of the high period of

2036
01:47:53,920 --> 01:47:57,640
Speaker 1: Greek civilization where a bunch of things come out of it.

2037
01:47:57,680 --> 01:48:00,519
Speaker 1: You kind of get anarchism, Western anarchism out of it,

2038
01:48:00,840 --> 01:48:04,040
Speaker 1: you kind of get you get elements of like Puritan

2039
01:48:04,240 --> 01:48:05,960
Speaker 1: culture from it, because there are a lot of them

2040
01:48:05,960 --> 01:48:08,640
Speaker 1: are very much anti like the pleasures of sex and

2041
01:48:08,680 --> 01:48:11,080
Speaker 1: like anything pleasing, and like you don't you don't do

2042
01:48:11,160 --> 01:48:13,400
Speaker 1: anything that feels good because then you become dependent on it.

2043
01:48:13,400 --> 01:48:15,840
Speaker 1: Like there's whole bunch of ship going on um. And

2044
01:48:15,880 --> 01:48:18,120
Speaker 1: Diogenes was like one of the one of the first

2045
01:48:18,160 --> 01:48:21,040
Speaker 1: motherfucker's who were kind of playing around in this in

2046
01:48:21,120 --> 01:48:25,280
Speaker 1: this philosophical space. And when he gets into so his

2047
01:48:25,400 --> 01:48:30,360
Speaker 1: early life is his dad is uh kind of a grifter.

2048
01:48:30,520 --> 01:48:33,599
Speaker 1: It sounds like we know that he got in trouble.

2049
01:48:33,640 --> 01:48:37,479
Speaker 1: He and his dad got exiled for debasing currency, which

2050
01:48:37,560 --> 01:48:40,680
Speaker 1: could be as simple as they were watering down for

2051
01:48:40,760 --> 01:48:42,679
Speaker 1: lack of a better term, like the gold or silver

2052
01:48:42,800 --> 01:48:45,400
Speaker 1: and currency with less precious metals and hiding it in

2053
01:48:45,520 --> 01:48:47,600
Speaker 1: order to make a profit, right and like keep the

2054
01:48:47,640 --> 01:48:50,000
Speaker 1: extra gold. That could be what they were doing. It

2055
01:48:50,040 --> 01:48:52,400
Speaker 1: also could have been like it could have been political

2056
01:48:52,439 --> 01:48:55,160
Speaker 1: because some people who were doing this in Sinope, I

2057
01:48:55,160 --> 01:48:57,439
Speaker 1: think is the city which is now in Turkey. We're

2058
01:48:57,439 --> 01:48:59,679
Speaker 1: doing it for political reasons. We don't really know why.

2059
01:49:00,080 --> 01:49:03,240
Speaker 1: But there's actual documented archaeological evidence of this, including right

2060
01:49:03,240 --> 01:49:05,080
Speaker 1: around the time he would have been a child. We

2061
01:49:05,200 --> 01:49:09,439
Speaker 1: found from that period a cash of debased gold and

2062
01:49:09,479 --> 01:49:11,920
Speaker 1: silver coins that had been destroyed, so someone had like

2063
01:49:11,960 --> 01:49:14,719
Speaker 1: realized they've been debased and destroyed them so they couldn't

2064
01:49:14,760 --> 01:49:16,720
Speaker 1: be used. So there's evidence. Anyway, he and his dad

2065
01:49:16,720 --> 01:49:19,040
Speaker 1: get exiled, which means from an early stage he goes

2066
01:49:19,080 --> 01:49:22,560
Speaker 1: from being someone of means, if your dad's making the currency,

2067
01:49:22,640 --> 01:49:27,200
Speaker 1: you're not probably not like a poor family um. And

2068
01:49:27,240 --> 01:49:29,040
Speaker 1: then they get kicked out of their city state and

2069
01:49:29,080 --> 01:49:33,800
Speaker 1: they're like kind of stateless. And so Diogenes evolves over

2070
01:49:33,880 --> 01:49:36,559
Speaker 1: time and like gets into philosophy. He tries to there's

2071
01:49:36,600 --> 01:49:38,280
Speaker 1: this I always forget the name of the guy that

2072
01:49:38,360 --> 01:49:41,320
Speaker 1: he he loved it first. But there's this philosopher who's like,

2073
01:49:41,439 --> 01:49:44,240
Speaker 1: you know this cynical like that's the school of thought

2074
01:49:44,240 --> 01:49:46,600
Speaker 1: he comes from. He's like a cynic um that Diogenes

2075
01:49:46,640 --> 01:49:48,760
Speaker 1: really wants to study from. And the guy like assaults

2076
01:49:48,840 --> 01:49:51,080
Speaker 1: him as as Diogenes is like, hey, man, I want

2077
01:49:51,080 --> 01:49:53,400
Speaker 1: to learn from you, Like he like hits him or something.

2078
01:49:53,680 --> 01:49:56,920
Speaker 1: This keeps happening, and eventually he's like this guy is

2079
01:49:56,960 --> 01:49:59,240
Speaker 1: like why do you keep doing this? And Diogenes is like,

2080
01:49:59,640 --> 01:50:02,240
Speaker 1: you have something I can learn from, uh, And so

2081
01:50:02,280 --> 01:50:03,720
Speaker 1: I don't really care what you do to me. I'm

2082
01:50:03,760 --> 01:50:05,640
Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna keep persisting. And so he becomes this

2083
01:50:05,680 --> 01:50:08,360
Speaker 1: guy's student, YadA YadA. And the guy who he becomes

2084
01:50:08,400 --> 01:50:10,519
Speaker 1: the student of is like kind of a poser because

2085
01:50:10,560 --> 01:50:12,720
Speaker 1: he's talking about like we need to give up you know,

2086
01:50:12,800 --> 01:50:15,960
Speaker 1: these kind of like pleasures of of like civilized life

2087
01:50:15,960 --> 01:50:18,639
Speaker 1: and and return to a more simple time and like

2088
01:50:18,920 --> 01:50:21,280
Speaker 1: not enjoy all of these, you know, the benefits of wealth,

2089
01:50:21,320 --> 01:50:23,000
Speaker 1: but he like he's also a rich guy and he

2090
01:50:23,040 --> 01:50:26,040
Speaker 1: doesn't give up his money. And Diogenes is like poor

2091
01:50:26,080 --> 01:50:29,240
Speaker 1: as hell um and stays that way. Um. And so

2092
01:50:29,280 --> 01:50:31,160
Speaker 1: he becomes famous for he goes to Athens and he

2093
01:50:31,160 --> 01:50:33,640
Speaker 1: becomes famous for a bunch of like troll ship. We

2094
01:50:33,680 --> 01:50:36,400
Speaker 1: don't actually have He wrote like ten books, we don't

2095
01:50:36,439 --> 01:50:38,720
Speaker 1: have any of them, so we don't actually like know

2096
01:50:39,040 --> 01:50:41,840
Speaker 1: what he actually wrote in his philosophy. We just have

2097
01:50:42,040 --> 01:50:44,920
Speaker 1: stories from other philosophers and it's all Diogenes being a

2098
01:50:44,960 --> 01:50:49,960
Speaker 1: fucking troll. So like um. On one occasion. He one

2099
01:50:50,040 --> 01:50:52,880
Speaker 1: of his big things was he believed that people that

2100
01:50:52,960 --> 01:50:55,640
Speaker 1: if if something was an acceptable behavior, it was an

2101
01:50:55,640 --> 01:50:58,720
Speaker 1: acceptable behavior everywhere, right. And so the start of this

2102
01:50:58,920 --> 01:51:01,000
Speaker 1: was in an ath you were supposed to go buy

2103
01:51:01,040 --> 01:51:03,240
Speaker 1: your food in the market, but you weren't supposed to

2104
01:51:03,280 --> 01:51:06,240
Speaker 1: eat it there. That was like considered rude, like like

2105
01:51:06,240 --> 01:51:09,559
Speaker 1: like like kind of obscene almost, And Diogenes would like

2106
01:51:09,680 --> 01:51:12,120
Speaker 1: get food and then usually by begging, because he was

2107
01:51:12,160 --> 01:51:14,080
Speaker 1: that was the way he got everything. He had no money,

2108
01:51:14,320 --> 01:51:15,800
Speaker 1: he would like get food and he would eat it

2109
01:51:15,880 --> 01:51:17,479
Speaker 1: right in the middle of the market. And everybody was like,

2110
01:51:17,520 --> 01:51:20,040
Speaker 1: that's disgusting, and Diogenes would be like, well, if it's

2111
01:51:20,040 --> 01:51:21,880
Speaker 1: okay for me to eat, it must be okay for

2112
01:51:21,880 --> 01:51:25,120
Speaker 1: me to eat here. That's great. Diogenes took it a

2113
01:51:25,160 --> 01:51:27,599
Speaker 1: little bit further than that, because yeah, yeah, I can

2114
01:51:27,640 --> 01:51:30,040
Speaker 1: see a few ways you can take this. He extended

2115
01:51:30,080 --> 01:51:32,360
Speaker 1: that too. If it's fine for me to urinator ship,

2116
01:51:32,439 --> 01:51:36,839
Speaker 1: it's fine for me to do anywhere. And he defended

2117
01:51:36,920 --> 01:51:40,200
Speaker 1: himself masturbating it. We can get people in public as

2118
01:51:40,840 --> 01:51:43,280
Speaker 1: if this is okay for me to do in my bedroom,

2119
01:51:43,280 --> 01:51:47,280
Speaker 1: why can't I do this here? Right? Um, it's very

2120
01:51:47,439 --> 01:51:50,519
Speaker 1: like he's he's he's a troll um Diogenes, And he's

2121
01:51:50,520 --> 01:51:53,559
Speaker 1: also like again, the stories we have him is he

2122
01:51:53,680 --> 01:51:56,840
Speaker 1: is like uber an aesthetic, so like, at one point,

2123
01:51:57,000 --> 01:51:59,360
Speaker 1: for a long time, the only thing he owns is

2124
01:51:59,400 --> 01:52:02,320
Speaker 1: a wooden ole that's his cup and and for his food.

2125
01:52:02,680 --> 01:52:05,840
Speaker 1: And then, according to you know legend, he sees this

2126
01:52:05,920 --> 01:52:08,920
Speaker 1: poor peasant child drinking from like cupped hands and he

2127
01:52:08,960 --> 01:52:11,840
Speaker 1: throws away his bowl and he's really angry and he's like, god,

2128
01:52:11,920 --> 01:52:14,599
Speaker 1: damn it, I spent all this effort carrying around something useless,

2129
01:52:14,600 --> 01:52:18,840
Speaker 1: Like I said, ship, in my hands. He's he's a

2130
01:52:18,960 --> 01:52:24,280
Speaker 1: very entertaining character and a very like yeah, yeah, he's

2131
01:52:24,320 --> 01:52:28,160
Speaker 1: absolutely an eugle um and he's yeah, he's just kind

2132
01:52:28,160 --> 01:52:31,160
Speaker 1: of like an endearing piece of ship. Is like his

2133
01:52:31,960 --> 01:52:35,280
Speaker 1: the the idea you get, but also like smarter than

2134
01:52:35,520 --> 01:52:38,840
Speaker 1: I mean, because because fundamentally, what Diagenes is doing is

2135
01:52:38,840 --> 01:52:41,000
Speaker 1: he's he's saying, like, hey, all this stuff that we

2136
01:52:41,040 --> 01:52:43,519
Speaker 1: think is important and good about our culture and and

2137
01:52:43,560 --> 01:52:46,640
Speaker 1: like valuable, what if it wasn't, what if none of

2138
01:52:46,640 --> 01:52:49,679
Speaker 1: it matters. He's like he's provoking the thick and he's

2139
01:52:49,760 --> 01:52:52,200
Speaker 1: he's big into like one of his his Like the

2140
01:52:52,240 --> 01:52:53,920
Speaker 1: things he comes back to a lot is that like

2141
01:52:54,479 --> 01:52:57,439
Speaker 1: dogs are clearly happier than us and like better creatures

2142
01:52:57,439 --> 01:53:00,680
Speaker 1: than us, so we should just seek to be like dogs. Um.

2143
01:53:00,720 --> 01:53:02,680
Speaker 1: And one of the ways he might have died is

2144
01:53:02,720 --> 01:53:05,080
Speaker 1: getting bitten by a dog and his bike getting infected.

2145
01:53:05,120 --> 01:53:07,360
Speaker 1: We don't really know how he died. Um. The ever

2146
01:53:07,400 --> 01:53:11,400
Speaker 1: thing about Diogenes, this guy fucking hates rich people. Oh

2147
01:53:11,439 --> 01:53:17,520
Speaker 1: he's he's and he's very funny about it. So Alexander

2148
01:53:17,600 --> 01:53:20,559
Speaker 1: the Great apocryphal Lee, maybe this probably never happened, But

2149
01:53:20,600 --> 01:53:24,160
Speaker 1: the story is that Alexander the Great comes to Athens,

2150
01:53:24,200 --> 01:53:27,240
Speaker 1: you know, while he's on his his blitz through conquering

2151
01:53:27,280 --> 01:53:30,680
Speaker 1: the known world, and finds Diogenes. Alexander the Great was

2152
01:53:30,680 --> 01:53:33,840
Speaker 1: like raised by Aristotle, right, so he knows his philosophy. Guys,

2153
01:53:33,920 --> 01:53:37,400
Speaker 1: like he's he's he's seeking Diogenes out because he's a

2154
01:53:37,400 --> 01:53:40,160
Speaker 1: fan of this dude, probably through stories that were told

2155
01:53:40,200 --> 01:53:42,400
Speaker 1: to him in the same way that like I'm telling

2156
01:53:42,439 --> 01:53:44,720
Speaker 1: them to you now. So he comes up to Diogenes

2157
01:53:44,760 --> 01:53:46,840
Speaker 1: and he's like, oh my god, I'm Alexander the Great.

2158
01:53:47,000 --> 01:53:49,720
Speaker 1: I'm a big fan. If I couldn't be Alexander the Great,

2159
01:53:49,760 --> 01:53:53,200
Speaker 1: I would want to be Diogenes um. And Diogenes response, well,

2160
01:53:53,200 --> 01:53:55,600
Speaker 1: if I couldn't be Diogenes, I would just want to

2161
01:53:55,640 --> 01:53:59,759
Speaker 1: be Diogenes, which is a fucking flex again but probably

2162
01:53:59,800 --> 01:54:02,720
Speaker 1: never happened. But like, I want to, I want to

2163
01:54:02,760 --> 01:54:07,920
Speaker 1: read this meme that Garrison sent me, because it happens.

2164
01:54:07,760 --> 01:54:10,320
Speaker 1: It's absolutely a perfect encription to what what this whole

2165
01:54:10,400 --> 01:54:12,920
Speaker 1: thing is sort of about. So, okay, this is me.

2166
01:54:13,080 --> 01:54:16,080
Speaker 1: The philosopher Diogenes was eating bread and lentils for supper.

2167
01:54:16,280 --> 01:54:18,320
Speaker 1: He was seen by the philosopher It or not a process.

2168
01:54:18,320 --> 01:54:22,479
Speaker 1: Guest name Aristippus, who is living matter some dead ass Greek,

2169
01:54:22,920 --> 01:54:26,360
Speaker 1: some guy who's about to get absolutely destroyed. He's living

2170
01:54:26,400 --> 01:54:31,360
Speaker 1: comfortably like flattering the king. Aristipis says, if you would

2171
01:54:31,400 --> 01:54:33,160
Speaker 1: learn to be subservient to the king, you would not

2172
01:54:33,240 --> 01:54:36,720
Speaker 1: have to live on lentils. Theogenus supplied, learn to live

2173
01:54:36,760 --> 01:54:38,880
Speaker 1: on lentils, and you will not have to be subservient

2174
01:54:38,920 --> 01:54:43,760
Speaker 1: to the king. Oh, sorts of based ship like that

2175
01:54:43,840 --> 01:54:49,080
Speaker 1: my favorite. But know our Plato is like, is like

2176
01:54:49,200 --> 01:54:51,680
Speaker 1: trying to determine, trying to define like a human in

2177
01:54:51,720 --> 01:54:55,320
Speaker 1: the simplest way possible. Yes, yeah, like the Platonic idea.

2178
01:54:55,360 --> 01:54:57,680
Speaker 1: And he was, so he comes to the conclusion that like, well,

2179
01:54:57,800 --> 01:55:01,240
Speaker 1: it's a it's a it's a it's an unwing biped um.

2180
01:55:01,360 --> 01:55:04,880
Speaker 1: And Diogenes supposedly goes grabs a plucked chicken and says,

2181
01:55:05,320 --> 01:55:12,160
Speaker 1: behold a man, Like I found a dude, rules um.

2182
01:55:12,240 --> 01:55:14,800
Speaker 1: He would he would famously walk around town in broad

2183
01:55:14,880 --> 01:55:17,520
Speaker 1: daylight with like a what do you call it, like

2184
01:55:17,560 --> 01:55:20,120
Speaker 1: a lantern, like looking around and people like, what are

2185
01:55:20,120 --> 01:55:21,720
Speaker 1: you looking for? It's like I'm looking for a man.

2186
01:55:21,840 --> 01:55:23,080
Speaker 1: He would like, look at a dude and you're like

2187
01:55:23,120 --> 01:55:26,040
Speaker 1: I'm looking for a man. And as it is to say,

2188
01:55:26,080 --> 01:55:28,240
Speaker 1: like none of you motherfucker's are people like you all

2189
01:55:28,280 --> 01:55:30,360
Speaker 1: think that you're human beings, but you're really just pieces

2190
01:55:30,360 --> 01:55:33,800
Speaker 1: of ship. It's just an amazing asshole. Sorry that that

2191
01:55:34,040 --> 01:55:39,080
Speaker 1: we should move back to anti work, but that's what yeah, yeah,

2192
01:55:39,120 --> 01:55:40,680
Speaker 1: but and this is this is the funny that both

2193
01:55:40,800 --> 01:55:43,760
Speaker 1: both both American and Chinese like anti work people both

2194
01:55:43,800 --> 01:55:50,160
Speaker 1: fucking love Diogenestely. Yeah, you know, very popular on our

2195
01:55:50,200 --> 01:55:54,160
Speaker 1: slash anti work. Yeah, and you know, and the thing

2196
01:55:54,200 --> 01:55:55,920
Speaker 1: I was reading about the like you know, learned to

2197
01:55:55,960 --> 01:55:58,920
Speaker 1: live on lentils and you'll never like after such a

2198
01:55:58,960 --> 01:56:02,160
Speaker 1: game by King that that's a lot of what lying

2199
01:56:02,200 --> 01:56:07,320
Speaker 1: down becomes. So very rapidly, this whole thing spreads into

2200
01:56:08,600 --> 01:56:12,640
Speaker 1: this like really it's a sort of astounding, you know,

2201
01:56:12,760 --> 01:56:15,120
Speaker 1: it starts out of the meme and it spreads incredibly quickly,

2202
01:56:15,280 --> 01:56:19,680
Speaker 1: and the CCP gets like really really mad about this.

2203
01:56:20,560 --> 01:56:23,240
Speaker 1: Um so, so it's like so this this starts in April, right,

2204
01:56:23,280 --> 01:56:25,960
Speaker 1: and in May there's they have this like enormous media

2205
01:56:26,040 --> 01:56:30,680
Speaker 1: blitz where like like the party is like outlet basically

2206
01:56:30,760 --> 01:56:33,560
Speaker 1: and Guandong publishes like a four page long attack on

2207
01:56:33,600 --> 01:56:36,200
Speaker 1: the concept of lying down, like the cc the end

2208
01:56:36,200 --> 01:56:38,560
Speaker 1: of the newspapers everywhere published this stuff like the CCP

2209
01:56:38,720 --> 01:56:42,760
Speaker 1: like bands flat weed yet yeah, and it's funny becase

2210
01:56:42,760 --> 01:56:44,200
Speaker 1: it's like if they do this, but it's too late,

2211
01:56:44,240 --> 01:56:50,200
Speaker 1: Like it's yeah and you know so, so part part

2212
01:56:50,240 --> 01:56:51,840
Speaker 1: of the lying down is is about, you know, you

2213
01:56:51,880 --> 01:56:54,840
Speaker 1: have this incredibly fast paced, intense work culture, you have involution,

2214
01:56:54,920 --> 01:56:56,720
Speaker 1: You're working more and more and you're getting nothing out

2215
01:56:56,720 --> 01:56:59,440
Speaker 1: of it. Lying flat is just going no, like you

2216
01:56:59,560 --> 01:57:02,600
Speaker 1: just lie down down, you refuse to work. But it's

2217
01:57:02,600 --> 01:57:04,120
Speaker 1: it's it's also it's more than that. And I think

2218
01:57:04,120 --> 01:57:05,560
Speaker 1: this is this goes back to the sort of broader

2219
01:57:05,600 --> 01:57:08,880
Speaker 1: conception of anti work. So on one of the slogans

2220
01:57:08,920 --> 01:57:12,240
Speaker 1: of this movement is don't bribe property, don't buy a car,

2221
01:57:12,440 --> 01:57:16,720
Speaker 1: don't get married, don't have children, and don't consume. And

2222
01:57:16,760 --> 01:57:18,200
Speaker 1: you know that the last part of this is implied

2223
01:57:18,280 --> 01:57:21,000
Speaker 1: is don't work. And you know there's a lot of

2224
01:57:21,040 --> 01:57:23,440
Speaker 1: sort of going on here. I mean, you have you know,

2225
01:57:24,040 --> 01:57:26,520
Speaker 1: it's not just sort of a critique of like we

2226
01:57:26,640 --> 01:57:28,720
Speaker 1: work too hard. It's about you know, it's about the

2227
01:57:28,720 --> 01:57:30,720
Speaker 1: sort of fall system. It's about the sort of patriarchy

2228
01:57:30,800 --> 01:57:32,680
Speaker 1: involved in this. It's about this sort of like force

2229
01:57:32,760 --> 01:57:37,160
Speaker 1: capitalist consumption. It's about like, you know, the fact that

2230
01:57:37,240 --> 01:57:40,520
Speaker 1: like literally a quarter of Chinese of China's economy or

2231
01:57:40,600 --> 01:57:44,520
Speaker 1: Chinese GDP is like all this real estate bullshit that

2232
01:57:44,600 --> 01:57:46,840
Speaker 1: everyone knows is going to collapse and even when it

2233
01:57:46,840 --> 01:57:49,520
Speaker 1: gets built like sucks. Thank god we don't have anything

2234
01:57:49,560 --> 01:57:51,840
Speaker 1: like that here. Yeah, I know, it's great. It's one

2235
01:57:51,840 --> 01:57:53,400
Speaker 1: of one of the fun things about larding histories. You

2236
01:57:53,400 --> 01:57:56,120
Speaker 1: could just watch every country do exactly the same thing

2237
01:57:56,120 --> 01:57:59,480
Speaker 1: with their housing market, like Japan do. It's like, it's

2238
01:57:59,520 --> 01:58:03,440
Speaker 1: greats like you also think this will work? What what?

2239
01:58:03,440 --> 01:58:05,520
Speaker 1: What extra fun thing is you get to watch every

2240
01:58:05,520 --> 01:58:07,880
Speaker 1: country do the same thing with farms and it always

2241
01:58:07,960 --> 01:58:14,480
Speaker 1: ended the same anyway. Yea. So there's there's a lot

2242
01:58:14,520 --> 01:58:18,320
Speaker 1: of you know, in order to sort of like facilitate this,

2243
01:58:18,560 --> 01:58:20,320
Speaker 1: you know, you get back to the Diogenes, so a

2244
01:58:20,360 --> 01:58:23,400
Speaker 1: lot of it what's happening is people sharing tips about

2245
01:58:23,440 --> 01:58:26,240
Speaker 1: how to make the cheapest food you can possibly survive

2246
01:58:26,320 --> 01:58:29,160
Speaker 1: on so you don't have to work, and so you know,

2247
01:58:29,160 --> 01:58:33,920
Speaker 1: and people the guy who wrote the Diogenes post like

2248
01:58:34,040 --> 01:58:36,600
Speaker 1: he spends thirty dollars a month. And he does this

2249
01:58:36,680 --> 01:58:42,400
Speaker 1: by only eating dried ramen and eggs and like rice. Yeah, yeah,

2250
01:58:42,680 --> 01:58:47,240
Speaker 1: one way to do it. This is like the most

2251
01:58:47,240 --> 01:58:49,440
Speaker 1: extreme example. I actually don't even think it's the most

2252
01:58:49,440 --> 01:58:53,640
Speaker 1: extreme example. A lot of people. One of the things

2253
01:58:53,640 --> 01:58:54,880
Speaker 1: that happens a lot is a bunch of people just

2254
01:58:54,920 --> 01:58:57,640
Speaker 1: like have left their jobs to become monks. This, this

2255
01:58:57,680 --> 01:59:00,200
Speaker 1: is like a whole thing. Yeah. I got to be

2256
01:59:00,200 --> 01:59:06,680
Speaker 1: a Buddhist, like honestly, like absolutely like, and I used

2257
01:59:06,680 --> 01:59:09,800
Speaker 1: to live in a place in the middle of fucking nowhere,

2258
01:59:09,840 --> 01:59:13,000
Speaker 1: one of the most like isolated places I've ever lived

2259
01:59:13,160 --> 01:59:16,840
Speaker 1: that like had power um and one of the people

2260
01:59:16,880 --> 01:59:19,400
Speaker 1: who was like by neighbor they were within several miles

2261
01:59:19,440 --> 01:59:22,440
Speaker 1: of us, was a monastery. This is in the United States,

2262
01:59:22,800 --> 01:59:24,960
Speaker 1: And like I went there once because I heard they

2263
01:59:24,960 --> 01:59:26,760
Speaker 1: made good wine to try and get some of their wine,

2264
01:59:26,920 --> 01:59:28,520
Speaker 1: and like, none of them would answer the door. I

2265
01:59:28,560 --> 01:59:31,600
Speaker 1: could see them inside all staring at me. They didn't

2266
01:59:31,600 --> 01:59:34,720
Speaker 1: do ship, And my my overwhelming thought was like, yeah,

2267
01:59:34,800 --> 01:59:37,960
Speaker 1: that seems like a pretty good way to do it. Yeah,

2268
01:59:38,320 --> 01:59:40,960
Speaker 1: I see why you guys have picked this life. It

2269
01:59:41,000 --> 01:59:45,400
Speaker 1: was also during the election back from the r N

2270
01:59:45,520 --> 01:59:47,640
Speaker 1: C and the d n C and was like, yeah,

2271
01:59:47,640 --> 01:59:52,080
Speaker 1: that seems smarter than what I'm doing. Yeah, so there's

2272
01:59:52,080 --> 01:59:54,200
Speaker 1: a lot of you know, yeah, that'd mean the stream example,

2273
01:59:54,240 --> 01:59:55,840
Speaker 1: like if people going to become monks. But like one

2274
01:59:55,840 --> 01:59:57,960
Speaker 1: of the things that's happening a lot is again you know,

2275
01:59:58,040 --> 02:00:01,320
Speaker 1: China hasn't known with micro worker population, and people are

2276
02:00:01,400 --> 02:00:04,640
Speaker 1: just like fuck this, I'm going back to my village

2277
02:00:05,720 --> 02:00:06,960
Speaker 1: and so and you know, and this is you know

2278
02:00:07,000 --> 02:00:08,840
Speaker 1: this this this, this is where they really screwed up

2279
02:00:08,840 --> 02:00:11,480
Speaker 1: with the YouTube stuff because you know, people were people,

2280
02:00:11,640 --> 02:00:14,520
Speaker 1: you know, they were gambling that that you know, you

2281
02:00:14,520 --> 02:00:16,280
Speaker 1: could just sell this as an aesthetic, and you know,

2282
02:00:16,360 --> 02:00:19,320
Speaker 1: you can sell it as an aesthetic like Chinese TikTok

2283
02:00:19,360 --> 02:00:21,760
Speaker 1: has this integrated thing in it where like if if

2284
02:00:21,760 --> 02:00:25,360
Speaker 1: you if you if you plug like something to buy it,

2285
02:00:25,680 --> 02:00:27,920
Speaker 1: like you can like click it and it'll just it'll

2286
02:00:27,960 --> 02:00:30,200
Speaker 1: take you like to a link like to to to

2287
02:00:30,200 --> 02:00:32,960
Speaker 1: to the thing it's selling, you know. And so yeah,

2288
02:00:32,960 --> 02:00:34,320
Speaker 1: they don't make a norse amount of money on this,

2289
02:00:34,400 --> 02:00:36,640
Speaker 1: but you know, the the the other side of that

2290
02:00:36,680 --> 02:00:38,920
Speaker 1: sword is a bunch of people were like I don't

2291
02:00:38,960 --> 02:00:41,720
Speaker 1: have to work this, Like I don't have to work

2292
02:00:42,680 --> 02:00:46,960
Speaker 1: in a city, I can just go home. Yeah, and

2293
02:00:47,040 --> 02:00:48,640
Speaker 1: you know, and you know and you know, so you know,

2294
02:00:48,760 --> 02:00:50,680
Speaker 1: as as you're talking about the antiwork stuff, it's not

2295
02:00:50,760 --> 02:00:54,320
Speaker 1: actually possible for a lot of people to leave their jobs.

2296
02:00:55,000 --> 02:00:59,760
Speaker 1: So the solution to this was there there's a culture

2297
02:00:59,800 --> 02:01:03,320
Speaker 1: that to fell up called petting fish, which and but

2298
02:01:03,120 --> 02:01:05,920
Speaker 1: but before you talk about petting fish, you said something about,

2299
02:01:06,400 --> 02:01:09,320
Speaker 1: uh plugging things on TikTok and you know who, you know,

2300
02:01:09,680 --> 02:01:12,400
Speaker 1: you know, like plugging like advertisements, and you know who

2301
02:01:12,440 --> 02:01:16,120
Speaker 1: also plugs plugs advertisements? Chris, Oh, no, is it us

2302
02:01:16,160 --> 02:01:20,680
Speaker 1: to Joe Rogan. But our new sponsor is the Joe

2303
02:01:20,760 --> 02:01:26,120
Speaker 1: Rogan Experience, brought to you by Honda. Honda drive a car,

2304
02:01:27,040 --> 02:01:32,400
Speaker 1: do fascism? Honda? Really yeah, Honda Garrison. Look, we don't

2305
02:01:32,480 --> 02:01:35,000
Speaker 1: We're not nearly a big enough podcast to get fucking

2306
02:01:35,840 --> 02:01:38,880
Speaker 1: to get a Toyota ad. Are you crazy? Yeah? That's

2307
02:01:39,000 --> 02:01:41,960
Speaker 1: what we can dream big, Yeah, I mean that is

2308
02:01:42,000 --> 02:01:46,760
Speaker 1: the dream to sell Toyota's. I mean we could become

2309
02:01:46,960 --> 02:01:50,320
Speaker 1: used car salesmen in the valley. All right, here's that

2310
02:01:51,800 --> 02:02:00,360
Speaker 1: AhR back cut that head and fish monk, Chris, handle it,

2311
02:02:02,880 --> 02:02:06,840
Speaker 1: keep it all in baby, Yeah, so there's there's all

2312
02:02:06,880 --> 02:02:08,920
Speaker 1: this thing called the petting fish, which is like Chinese

2313
02:02:08,920 --> 02:02:10,640
Speaker 1: slack off culture, and it's you know, somet of people

2314
02:02:10,680 --> 02:02:12,520
Speaker 1: sharing tips how to slack off at work, and it's

2315
02:02:12,520 --> 02:02:15,520
Speaker 1: it's kind of the equivalent like I love that it's

2316
02:02:15,520 --> 02:02:18,600
Speaker 1: called petting fish. And then also like, yeah, it's it's

2317
02:02:18,640 --> 02:02:20,800
Speaker 1: kind of the Chinese equivalent of like boss makes a dollar,

2318
02:02:20,840 --> 02:02:22,720
Speaker 1: I make a dime. That's why I shoot on company time.

2319
02:02:23,320 --> 02:02:25,760
Speaker 1: So people do just a lot of like they have

2320
02:02:25,760 --> 02:02:27,640
Speaker 1: a lot of like genuinely fun things they do. Like

2321
02:02:27,640 --> 02:02:31,040
Speaker 1: people people started putting like fake beatings on their calendars

2322
02:02:31,040 --> 02:02:33,720
Speaker 1: and people wouldn't bother them. They like they just like

2323
02:02:33,800 --> 02:02:36,440
Speaker 1: people like that. That is also that's that's that's also

2324
02:02:36,480 --> 02:02:39,080
Speaker 1: what I do. Yeah, yeah, I mean the if you

2325
02:02:39,120 --> 02:02:41,400
Speaker 1: want to make I love the term petting fish as well,

2326
02:02:41,440 --> 02:02:43,400
Speaker 1: but if you want to like make it sound cool.

2327
02:02:43,680 --> 02:02:48,040
Speaker 1: They're waging an insurgency from within capitalism by by by

2328
02:02:48,080 --> 02:02:52,839
Speaker 1: trying to take resources away from their employers, um without

2329
02:02:52,880 --> 02:02:55,640
Speaker 1: being spotted. Yeah, there's a there's a thing in Volume

2330
02:02:55,640 --> 02:02:58,440
Speaker 1: one of Capital about this that I was like, oh,

2331
02:02:58,480 --> 02:03:00,200
Speaker 1: I could pull this up, and then I was that

2332
02:03:00,280 --> 02:03:01,800
Speaker 1: is too much work. I'm not going to do it,

2333
02:03:01,840 --> 02:03:03,400
Speaker 1: so I don't have the thing in volume one where

2334
02:03:03,440 --> 02:03:07,000
Speaker 1: talks about struggling between about labor time. But instead you

2335
02:03:07,000 --> 02:03:08,839
Speaker 1: get a bunch of people like the Smike, smuggling whiskey

2336
02:03:08,840 --> 02:03:11,480
Speaker 1: into work, taking through our lunch breaks. My favorite one,

2337
02:03:11,920 --> 02:03:19,600
Speaker 1: absolutely favorite drink at work, especially if your nurse, Oh boy,

2338
02:03:20,080 --> 02:03:23,760
Speaker 1: you probably killed about fifty people. This is gonna be crossed.

2339
02:03:24,120 --> 02:03:27,280
Speaker 1: Fingers crossed. So you know how like companies all have

2340
02:03:27,360 --> 02:03:32,000
Speaker 1: these like these really annoying like mindfulness fitness things. So

2341
02:03:32,080 --> 02:03:33,840
Speaker 1: one of these people started doing was okay, so you

2342
02:03:33,880 --> 02:03:35,200
Speaker 1: know the thing like you have to drink eight hour,

2343
02:03:35,440 --> 02:03:38,320
Speaker 1: eight times a day. So they would set these alarms

2344
02:03:38,640 --> 02:03:40,000
Speaker 1: that's like, oh, I have to go drink my water.

2345
02:03:40,040 --> 02:03:42,720
Speaker 1: And so like every like every like fifty minutes or something,

2346
02:03:42,720 --> 02:03:44,640
Speaker 1: they just go up and like spend twenty minutes getting

2347
02:03:44,640 --> 02:03:48,040
Speaker 1: water and they sit back down. It's like you've just

2348
02:03:48,080 --> 02:03:51,080
Speaker 1: eviscerated enormous part of your work day. And and the

2349
02:03:51,200 --> 02:03:53,800
Speaker 1: product of this, you know, this CP is really piste

2350
02:03:53,840 --> 02:03:55,440
Speaker 1: off about this. And you know you get these giant

2351
02:03:55,440 --> 02:03:58,360
Speaker 1: billboards to say no lying flat, no petting fish on

2352
02:03:58,440 --> 02:04:01,200
Speaker 1: them or something. It would have been liter really incomprehensible

2353
02:04:01,280 --> 02:04:07,280
Speaker 1: like a year ago. It's amazing. And you know, and

2354
02:04:07,560 --> 02:04:09,560
Speaker 1: I think this is something you know in the U

2355
02:04:09,680 --> 02:04:12,800
Speaker 1: s anti work, like the actual political class kind of

2356
02:04:12,800 --> 02:04:14,240
Speaker 1: has been ignoring it. I mean, you see a couple

2357
02:04:14,240 --> 02:04:18,520
Speaker 1: of acial antists in China, Chesing Ping like made a speech.

2358
02:04:18,600 --> 02:04:20,480
Speaker 1: It was like, you know, he have a private speech

2359
02:04:20,480 --> 02:04:23,200
Speaker 1: a bunch of hog people in the party, and so

2360
02:04:23,320 --> 02:04:26,160
Speaker 1: a part of it a printage like a month ago

2361
02:04:26,360 --> 02:04:28,360
Speaker 1: or something I've I've lost track of all time. But

2362
02:04:28,400 --> 02:04:31,080
Speaker 1: like like like specifically in this speech that Esping is

2363
02:04:31,080 --> 02:04:34,280
Speaker 1: making that is published in the official like theoretical journal,

2364
02:04:34,600 --> 02:04:38,040
Speaker 1: he's like explicitly saying like don't lie flat and saying

2365
02:04:38,120 --> 02:04:42,720
Speaker 1: quote happy life is earned through heart, hard work. And yeah,

2366
02:04:42,720 --> 02:04:44,200
Speaker 1: and he also has this, he has his ranch, but

2367
02:04:44,280 --> 02:04:49,240
Speaker 1: like denouncing welfare ism, which is great the the communist

2368
02:04:49,360 --> 02:04:55,640
Speaker 1: vanguard there. Yeah, yeah, preaching the immortal science. Yeah, socialism

2369
02:04:55,720 --> 02:04:59,920
Speaker 1: with Chinese characteristics. Motherfucker's don't be a welfare queen follows.

2370
02:05:00,040 --> 02:05:03,640
Speaker 1: Even thought it's great, you know, but it's interesting people,

2371
02:05:03,840 --> 02:05:05,680
Speaker 1: this is the one people are really freaked out about.

2372
02:05:05,680 --> 02:05:07,920
Speaker 1: Like I saw, I saw like an American writer about this,

2373
02:05:08,200 --> 02:05:10,120
Speaker 1: who you know, they wrote like an article about this

2374
02:05:10,120 --> 02:05:12,320
Speaker 1: whole thing, and then they were like, this is gonna

2375
02:05:12,440 --> 02:05:15,960
Speaker 1: this is gonna cause inflation. It's like, this is gonna

2376
02:05:15,960 --> 02:05:19,800
Speaker 1: be the driver of like what people just use the

2377
02:05:19,800 --> 02:05:23,160
Speaker 1: word inflation to mean whatever scary thing they want. Yeah,

2378
02:05:23,200 --> 02:05:24,880
Speaker 1: well they're they're like, oh, this will this will increase

2379
02:05:24,920 --> 02:05:26,560
Speaker 1: wages and that will lead to inflation and we'll get

2380
02:05:26,560 --> 02:05:31,800
Speaker 1: the seventies again. And I'm like, God, maybe, but a

2381
02:05:31,840 --> 02:05:34,200
Speaker 1: tallow disco again? Did you ever think of that guy

2382
02:05:35,160 --> 02:05:37,839
Speaker 1: that we that were are reserves of a tallow disco

2383
02:05:37,920 --> 02:05:42,520
Speaker 1: are critically low? Do you wonder what a tallow disco is?

2384
02:05:42,600 --> 02:05:45,760
Speaker 1: No idea? That's a shame. All right, let's continue what

2385
02:05:45,560 --> 02:05:47,240
Speaker 1: what what type of like is there is there like

2386
02:05:47,280 --> 02:05:49,440
Speaker 1: any like you said this kind of stuff started to

2387
02:05:49,600 --> 02:05:51,440
Speaker 1: like move left words. Is there any like actual like

2388
02:05:51,520 --> 02:05:54,320
Speaker 1: leftist organizing in these types of places? So so this

2389
02:05:54,360 --> 02:05:56,000
Speaker 1: is the thing I was getting to, which is that, like,

2390
02:05:56,040 --> 02:05:57,720
Speaker 1: you know, people are starting to do reading groups. But

2391
02:05:57,720 --> 02:06:00,440
Speaker 1: the problem, the problem with leftist organizing and China is that,

2392
02:06:01,320 --> 02:06:03,320
Speaker 1: you know, so state policy in the past three years

2393
02:06:03,360 --> 02:06:05,520
Speaker 1: has been like if you poke your head above ground,

2394
02:06:05,520 --> 02:06:09,080
Speaker 1: you get arrested. So you know, I mean, for example,

2395
02:06:09,120 --> 02:06:11,880
Speaker 1: there was there was a strike at Jasick and you know,

2396
02:06:11,920 --> 02:06:14,200
Speaker 1: a bunch of student groups who've been organizing for a

2397
02:06:14,240 --> 02:06:16,000
Speaker 1: long time like tried to do all drety with it,

2398
02:06:16,000 --> 02:06:18,320
Speaker 1: and they all got arrested. The people who are people

2399
02:06:18,320 --> 02:06:20,120
Speaker 1: who let the strike got arrested. All the students who

2400
02:06:20,120 --> 02:06:22,640
Speaker 1: are doing so ald Aretay got arrested. People like people

2401
02:06:22,640 --> 02:06:26,400
Speaker 1: got arrested for like like dancing with like university students

2402
02:06:26,400 --> 02:06:28,560
Speaker 1: got arrested for like dancing with the people who were

2403
02:06:28,560 --> 02:06:38,320
Speaker 1: like cleaning the floors. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like the yeah,

2404
02:06:38,440 --> 02:06:41,680
Speaker 1: like it's it's incredible and like you know, and the

2405
02:06:41,760 --> 02:06:43,480
Speaker 1: other thing that you can see about this was so so.

2406
02:06:43,560 --> 02:06:45,080
Speaker 1: For example, there was there was a guy doing like

2407
02:06:45,200 --> 02:06:48,000
Speaker 1: delivery driver organizing. It was kind of weird. He was

2408
02:06:48,000 --> 02:06:51,560
Speaker 1: like kind of an entrepreneur kind of doing delivery driver organizing.

2409
02:06:51,600 --> 02:06:53,960
Speaker 1: Like he got arrested, and then you know, like a

2410
02:06:53,960 --> 02:06:55,640
Speaker 1: couple of weeks later, this is people like, oh, we're

2411
02:06:55,640 --> 02:06:58,560
Speaker 1: gonna like do things to improve the conditions of of

2412
02:06:58,560 --> 02:07:01,600
Speaker 1: of delivery drivers and know who knows if that's going

2413
02:07:01,640 --> 02:07:05,000
Speaker 1: to happen, but like you know, basically like any anyone

2414
02:07:05,480 --> 02:07:07,760
Speaker 1: out for some reason that the people in the tech

2415
02:07:07,800 --> 02:07:10,760
Speaker 1: sector have been able to get away with more for

2416
02:07:11,560 --> 02:07:13,880
Speaker 1: reasons that are probably class based, and I think this

2417
02:07:14,080 --> 02:07:15,960
Speaker 1: doesn't take them seriously in the way they do with

2418
02:07:16,080 --> 02:07:19,960
Speaker 1: students factory workers. But you know, and actually I mean

2419
02:07:19,960 --> 02:07:22,120
Speaker 1: the fact that the tech workers like kind of recently

2420
02:07:22,240 --> 02:07:24,320
Speaker 1: like that there's a tech worker thing calling for like

2421
02:07:24,320 --> 02:07:27,960
Speaker 1: like democratic control of production, which is wild. But other

2422
02:07:28,040 --> 02:07:30,400
Speaker 1: than those guys like you can't you know, you can't

2423
02:07:30,440 --> 02:07:33,560
Speaker 1: stick your head up, you get flattened. So this has

2424
02:07:33,560 --> 02:07:35,400
Speaker 1: sort of been the result of this, which is this

2425
02:07:35,480 --> 02:07:38,720
Speaker 1: like you know, the sort of the like lying flat

2426
02:07:38,840 --> 02:07:41,160
Speaker 1: is this, you know, it's this mass to centralized movements

2427
02:07:41,800 --> 02:07:43,640
Speaker 1: that you know, there's there's no one to hit with

2428
02:07:43,640 --> 02:07:47,560
Speaker 1: a hammer, and you know, and and I think, like, okay,

2429
02:07:47,560 --> 02:07:49,040
Speaker 1: so one of one of the other quotes that's that's

2430
02:07:49,080 --> 02:07:51,440
Speaker 1: been going around about lying flat is it's it's a poem.

2431
02:07:51,560 --> 02:07:56,240
Speaker 1: It doesn't poem as well in English, but this, this

2432
02:07:56,280 --> 02:07:58,760
Speaker 1: is the best we've got. Lying flat is to not

2433
02:07:58,880 --> 02:08:02,040
Speaker 1: bow down. Lying flat is to not kneel. Lying flat

2434
02:08:02,120 --> 02:08:05,560
Speaker 1: is to stand up horizontally. Lying flat is a straight spine.

2435
02:08:06,280 --> 02:08:08,800
Speaker 1: And so you know, what was basically happening here is

2436
02:08:08,800 --> 02:08:12,040
Speaker 1: is it's a combination of the tendencies you see in

2437
02:08:12,080 --> 02:08:15,280
Speaker 1: the US, where you know, a bunch of people terrible jobs,

2438
02:08:15,560 --> 02:08:18,480
Speaker 1: realizing that everything is pointless. And then also, this is

2439
02:08:18,520 --> 02:08:21,360
Speaker 1: a way you can, like, this is the way you

2440
02:08:21,400 --> 02:08:25,360
Speaker 1: can like fight your boss without like the police showing up.

2441
02:08:26,400 --> 02:08:30,960
Speaker 1: And so there's there's some interesting like political stuff. So there,

2442
02:08:31,000 --> 02:08:32,840
Speaker 1: there's there, there's there's there's if if you look at that,

2443
02:08:33,000 --> 02:08:35,080
Speaker 1: there's there's a bunch of memes here because they're great.

2444
02:08:35,640 --> 02:08:37,880
Speaker 1: So there's there's been a thing with these people talking

2445
02:08:37,920 --> 02:08:40,200
Speaker 1: about how people are leaks, which are like their leaks,

2446
02:08:40,200 --> 02:08:43,240
Speaker 1: they're harvested over and over again and they're being exploited

2447
02:08:43,320 --> 02:08:47,120
Speaker 1: and like the plants, yeah, like leaks like yeah, you eat.

2448
02:08:47,440 --> 02:08:49,320
Speaker 1: And so they have this thing that's leaks that life

2449
02:08:49,360 --> 02:08:51,480
Speaker 1: flat cannot be so easily harvested. It's just like a

2450
02:08:51,560 --> 02:08:54,040
Speaker 1: knife go like try like a machete, like trying to

2451
02:08:54,080 --> 02:08:56,000
Speaker 1: swing out a bunch of leaks, but leaks are flats,

2452
02:08:56,000 --> 02:08:59,760
Speaker 1: so they can't hit them. And what I like, I

2453
02:08:59,840 --> 02:09:02,839
Speaker 1: like all of this. Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's it's

2454
02:09:02,920 --> 02:09:06,080
Speaker 1: you know, and so and so what the product of

2455
02:09:06,120 --> 02:09:07,800
Speaker 1: this is that yeah, like this this this this has

2456
02:09:07,920 --> 02:09:11,880
Speaker 1: this stuff has actually been effective enough that the CCP, like,

2457
02:09:11,960 --> 02:09:14,120
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, the CCP is is taking it seriously,

2458
02:09:14,160 --> 02:09:16,120
Speaker 1: but you know, there's not much they can do about it,

2459
02:09:16,200 --> 02:09:19,920
Speaker 1: because like if someone's just like, oh, I'm going to

2460
02:09:20,000 --> 02:09:22,840
Speaker 1: go from a job that's really high stressed to one

2461
02:09:22,840 --> 02:09:24,720
Speaker 1: that's less high stress, like what are you're gonna are

2462
02:09:24,720 --> 02:09:26,280
Speaker 1: you just gonna arrest them? Like what what are you

2463
02:09:26,280 --> 02:09:30,240
Speaker 1: gonna do? And so this, yeah, this, this has been

2464
02:09:31,080 --> 02:09:34,520
Speaker 1: building for a while now and I don't know who

2465
02:09:34,560 --> 02:09:38,840
Speaker 1: who knows exactly like where it's going to go, but

2466
02:09:39,040 --> 02:09:42,880
Speaker 1: it's it's it's already you know, it's something that people

2467
02:09:42,920 --> 02:09:45,839
Speaker 1: can do as an individual in a place where organized

2468
02:09:45,880 --> 02:09:48,760
Speaker 1: political action is impossible in a way such that you

2469
02:09:48,760 --> 02:09:51,840
Speaker 1: know that their individual actions have a collective effect, but

2470
02:09:52,080 --> 02:09:56,240
Speaker 1: one that can't be just you know, pounded down. Yeah,

2471
02:09:56,400 --> 02:09:59,960
Speaker 1: I mean, it is certainly interesting to see two completely separate,

2472
02:10:00,160 --> 02:10:03,040
Speaker 1: like anti work style movements around basically around the same

2473
02:10:03,200 --> 02:10:07,280
Speaker 1: same exact time, with the same exact points. If you're different,

2474
02:10:08,080 --> 02:10:12,320
Speaker 1: if you're someone who's interested in massive global revolutionary change,

2475
02:10:12,640 --> 02:10:15,200
Speaker 1: this should probably be a thing that you are looking

2476
02:10:15,240 --> 02:10:18,440
Speaker 1: at and studying and thinking a lot about, because perhaps

2477
02:10:19,240 --> 02:10:22,400
Speaker 1: while we're arguing about ship that people started talking about

2478
02:10:22,480 --> 02:10:26,240
Speaker 1: in the eighteen seventies. This, this might be a better

2479
02:10:26,320 --> 02:10:30,440
Speaker 1: thing to do than than that, because because it's it

2480
02:10:30,440 --> 02:10:33,560
Speaker 1: seems like there's some potential here. Yeah, and I think, yeah,

2481
02:10:33,560 --> 02:10:35,240
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, if if if you if you

2482
02:10:35,280 --> 02:10:38,360
Speaker 1: know any any any any actual revolutionary project that makes

2483
02:10:38,360 --> 02:10:40,240
Speaker 1: the world better is going to have to be international.

2484
02:10:40,920 --> 02:10:43,720
Speaker 1: And that's been you know, that that that that that's

2485
02:10:43,760 --> 02:10:48,880
Speaker 1: been the bane of all revolutionary movements forever. But you know, okay,

2486
02:10:48,880 --> 02:10:51,000
Speaker 1: so we have you know that we we have something

2487
02:10:51,080 --> 02:10:53,880
Speaker 1: to change the American working class agrees on, which is

2488
02:10:54,120 --> 02:10:59,280
Speaker 1: Diologenes is based in work sucks. Yeah. So as you

2489
02:10:59,320 --> 02:11:03,120
Speaker 1: go forward into your life this week, um, take a

2490
02:11:03,160 --> 02:11:08,720
Speaker 1: page from Diogenes as his book and the people ship

2491
02:11:09,120 --> 02:11:12,800
Speaker 1: on the floor of a free people or yeah, free

2492
02:11:12,800 --> 02:11:15,040
Speaker 1: people are in h and M. Go walk into one

2493
02:11:15,160 --> 02:11:21,240
Speaker 1: and just just just go absolutely ruin that tile. I mean,

2494
02:11:21,720 --> 02:11:25,440
Speaker 1: fuck it. This is why my my my biggest political

2495
02:11:25,480 --> 02:11:29,400
Speaker 1: advice to friends who has always been learned to run fast,

2496
02:11:29,800 --> 02:11:32,240
Speaker 1: because if you learn to run fast, you can do

2497
02:11:32,360 --> 02:11:36,240
Speaker 1: so many more fun things in a store and then

2498
02:11:36,320 --> 02:11:39,040
Speaker 1: run fast that it's done right. The problem is that

2499
02:11:39,080 --> 02:11:41,120
Speaker 1: a lot of people like, who who want to do

2500
02:11:41,200 --> 02:11:44,240
Speaker 1: this can't run fast enough? So learn to run fast

2501
02:11:44,280 --> 02:11:47,280
Speaker 1: to do this there, It's like Moose said, all political

2502
02:11:47,320 --> 02:11:49,920
Speaker 1: power comes from being able to ship really fast and

2503
02:11:50,600 --> 02:11:52,960
Speaker 1: from the doors of a free people. Just get that

2504
02:11:53,200 --> 02:11:57,320
Speaker 1: out of there. The immortal side, look, I think I

2505
02:11:57,600 --> 02:12:00,040
Speaker 1: think I think we should leave with with the the

2506
02:12:01,160 --> 02:12:05,600
Speaker 1: real immortal science, the the immortal words of a skeleton

2507
02:12:06,560 --> 02:12:10,480
Speaker 1: from the share zone. Just walk out. You can leave work,

2508
02:12:10,800 --> 02:12:16,879
Speaker 1: social things, movie, home, class, dentist, clothes shops, to fancy

2509
02:12:16,920 --> 02:12:20,400
Speaker 1: weed store cops if you're quick, friendships if it sucks.

2510
02:12:20,680 --> 02:12:25,400
Speaker 1: Hit the bricks yeah yeah, As as some comedian who

2511
02:12:25,400 --> 02:12:28,480
Speaker 1: I can't remember now said, always have an exit plan

2512
02:12:29,160 --> 02:12:31,760
Speaker 1: like that that that should be your thought for everything

2513
02:12:32,080 --> 02:12:37,160
Speaker 1: everything in the world. Hit the fucking bricks. Get out anyway,

2514
02:12:37,440 --> 02:12:49,640
Speaker 1: Get out of this podcast episode now, Welcome to it

2515
02:12:49,720 --> 02:12:53,160
Speaker 1: could happen here podcast about things falling apart from what

2516
02:12:53,200 --> 02:12:55,960
Speaker 1: you can do about it. My name is Christopher Wong,

2517
02:12:56,120 --> 02:12:58,960
Speaker 1: and today I'm gonna be talking about sabotage. But this

2518
02:12:59,040 --> 02:13:02,520
Speaker 1: is not the episode on abotage that you expect. I

2519
02:13:02,560 --> 02:13:06,320
Speaker 1: will not be discussing, for example, the destruction of machinery

2520
02:13:06,680 --> 02:13:10,000
Speaker 1: throwing monkey wrenches, slow down strikes, or the myriad of

2521
02:13:10,040 --> 02:13:12,760
Speaker 1: other tactics that workers have used since time immemorium to

2522
02:13:12,800 --> 02:13:16,160
Speaker 1: strike back at their bosses. No, instead, I'm going to

2523
02:13:16,200 --> 02:13:19,280
Speaker 1: be talking about a four more common and infinitely more

2524
02:13:19,360 --> 02:13:25,320
Speaker 1: dangerous form of sabotage, corporate sabotage. Now, the most conficuous

2525
02:13:25,320 --> 02:13:27,880
Speaker 1: form of corporate sabotage is the mass destruction of a

2526
02:13:27,920 --> 02:13:32,320
Speaker 1: corporation zone products. The fashion company Burberry, for example, destroyed

2527
02:13:32,320 --> 02:13:34,960
Speaker 1: three hundred and seventy million dollars of its own product

2528
02:13:34,960 --> 02:13:38,960
Speaker 1: in one year alone. Louis Vutton and Chanel also systematically

2529
02:13:39,000 --> 02:13:42,000
Speaker 1: destroy their own sold stock every year, joining H and

2530
02:13:42,160 --> 02:13:44,480
Speaker 1: M and literally lighting their own sold products on fire

2531
02:13:44,480 --> 02:13:47,960
Speaker 1: in order to prevent anyone from using them. Quote business

2532
02:13:48,040 --> 02:13:52,400
Speaker 1: insider Rischemont, the owner of Cadalier BoNT Blanc, destroyed more

2533
02:13:52,440 --> 02:13:55,000
Speaker 1: than four hundred million pounds of watches over a two

2534
02:13:55,040 --> 02:13:58,040
Speaker 1: year period after an excess in goods in the Asian markets.

2535
02:13:58,640 --> 02:14:01,520
Speaker 1: Nike has also admitted at a New York store slashed

2536
02:14:01,600 --> 02:14:04,920
Speaker 1: unsold trainers before throwing them away, and last year, an

2537
02:14:05,000 --> 02:14:07,800
Speaker 1: Urban Outfits employee said he was instructed to pour green

2538
02:14:07,920 --> 02:14:11,360
Speaker 1: paints on the unsold stock. These of course, are only

2539
02:14:11,400 --> 02:14:13,800
Speaker 1: the stories that have made it into the press, and

2540
02:14:13,880 --> 02:14:16,560
Speaker 1: this behavior is by no means limited to high fashion.

2541
02:14:17,080 --> 02:14:20,720
Speaker 1: Grocery Stores routinely throw away normous quantities of unsold goods,

2542
02:14:21,600 --> 02:14:23,960
Speaker 1: and when communities realized they could feed people in need

2543
02:14:24,040 --> 02:14:27,360
Speaker 1: by taking the still good products from grocery store dumpstairs,

2544
02:14:27,640 --> 02:14:31,040
Speaker 1: the stories began to destroy their food intentionally. But these

2545
02:14:31,080 --> 02:14:34,760
Speaker 1: acts of destruction, as callous and horrifically greedy as they are,

2546
02:14:35,080 --> 02:14:39,560
Speaker 1: are by no means the extent of corporate sabotage. To explain,

2547
02:14:40,080 --> 02:14:42,879
Speaker 1: I turned to the work of the economist Thorston Veblen.

2548
02:14:44,040 --> 02:14:46,600
Speaker 1: Feblen is perhaps best known today for the theory of

2549
02:14:46,600 --> 02:14:52,640
Speaker 1: conspicuous consumption, but he wrote extensively on corporate sabotage in

2550
02:14:52,720 --> 02:14:55,200
Speaker 1: the first part of The Engineers and the Price System,

2551
02:14:55,240 --> 02:14:57,840
Speaker 1: a work that is broadly ignored even by his followers.

2552
02:14:58,200 --> 02:15:01,360
Speaker 1: Feblen wrote a section call on the Nature and Uses

2553
02:15:01,360 --> 02:15:06,200
Speaker 1: of Sabotage from that work. Writers and speakers who dilate

2554
02:15:06,240 --> 02:15:09,800
Speaker 1: on the militarious exploits of the nation's businessmen will not

2555
02:15:09,920 --> 02:15:14,120
Speaker 1: commonly allude to this voluminous running administration of sabotage, This

2556
02:15:14,240 --> 02:15:18,640
Speaker 1: conscientious withdrawal of efficiency that goes into their ordinary day's work.

2557
02:15:19,120 --> 02:15:21,440
Speaker 1: We are not used to thinking of the ordinary work

2558
02:15:21,920 --> 02:15:26,400
Speaker 1: of a corporation being sabotage. But for Veblen there was

2559
02:15:26,440 --> 02:15:29,280
Speaker 1: no other explanation for what he was seeing. In the

2560
02:15:29,280 --> 02:15:31,800
Speaker 1: wake of World War One, there was an enormous explosion

2561
02:15:31,800 --> 02:15:35,160
Speaker 1: and unemployment, an enormous need on half of the population.

2562
02:15:35,880 --> 02:15:38,440
Speaker 1: But even as the unemployed begged to be let in

2563
02:15:38,520 --> 02:15:40,560
Speaker 1: to create the products that could build the needs of

2564
02:15:40,560 --> 02:15:44,800
Speaker 1: their fellow humans, business owners steadfastly refused to open their factories.

2565
02:15:45,320 --> 02:15:49,320
Speaker 1: As Veblen explained, but for reasons of business expediency, it

2566
02:15:49,400 --> 02:15:51,960
Speaker 1: is impossible to let these idle plants and idle workmen

2567
02:15:52,000 --> 02:15:54,400
Speaker 1: go to work, that is to say, for reasons of

2568
02:15:54,440 --> 02:15:58,000
Speaker 1: insufficient profit to the businessmen interested, or in other words,

2569
02:15:58,440 --> 02:16:01,240
Speaker 1: for reasons of insufficient income to the vested interest which

2570
02:16:01,280 --> 02:16:04,959
Speaker 1: controlled the staple industries and so regulate the output of product.

2571
02:16:05,960 --> 02:16:08,920
Speaker 1: Feblen was not alone in observing these are similar conditions.

2572
02:16:09,400 --> 02:16:13,400
Speaker 1: John Maynard Keynes, writing during the depression, observed newly precisely

2573
02:16:13,440 --> 02:16:17,360
Speaker 1: the same thing. For Canes, the solution simply was to

2574
02:16:17,400 --> 02:16:21,480
Speaker 1: have the government step into increased demand. But for Veblen,

2575
02:16:21,680 --> 02:16:23,960
Speaker 1: dismissed the core of the problem. The real problem was

2576
02:16:24,000 --> 02:16:26,600
Speaker 1: at a core of absentee owners had the ability to

2577
02:16:26,600 --> 02:16:28,640
Speaker 1: shut down the factories in the first place by simple

2578
02:16:28,760 --> 02:16:32,920
Speaker 1: virtue of their ownership, Feblin argued, was simply sabotage, no

2579
02:16:33,080 --> 02:16:35,400
Speaker 1: different from the hated strikes of the I w W

2580
02:16:35,640 --> 02:16:39,080
Speaker 1: that's so racked and perturbed the capitalist ruling class of

2581
02:16:39,160 --> 02:16:41,760
Speaker 1: his time. At least, the workers could argue that they

2582
02:16:41,760 --> 02:16:44,640
Speaker 1: were simply fighting for a better share of what they

2583
02:16:44,640 --> 02:16:47,760
Speaker 1: had created. Absentee owners, on the other hand, who had

2584
02:16:47,800 --> 02:16:52,240
Speaker 1: no actual involvement in the production process whatsoever, simply carried

2585
02:16:52,280 --> 02:16:55,320
Speaker 1: out sabotage on an enormous scale in order to secure

2586
02:16:55,360 --> 02:16:58,760
Speaker 1: their own returns, and this was true even in times

2587
02:16:58,800 --> 02:17:01,600
Speaker 1: they weren't marked by mass depressions. In order to make

2588
02:17:01,680 --> 02:17:05,320
Speaker 1: payments to capitalists, Feblin argued, who expect a certain rate

2589
02:17:05,360 --> 02:17:08,800
Speaker 1: of return on their investment, corporations must maintain prices at

2590
02:17:08,800 --> 02:17:11,000
Speaker 1: such a level that they can meet their returns, and

2591
02:17:11,040 --> 02:17:13,560
Speaker 1: the only way they can do this is sabotage. For

2592
02:17:13,600 --> 02:17:16,280
Speaker 1: the good of business, it is necessary to curtail production

2593
02:17:16,320 --> 02:17:19,360
Speaker 1: of the means of life on pain of unprofitable prices

2594
02:17:19,720 --> 02:17:22,520
Speaker 1: at the same time, that the increasing need of all

2595
02:17:22,520 --> 02:17:24,960
Speaker 1: sorts of necessities of life must be met in some

2596
02:17:25,480 --> 02:17:29,680
Speaker 1: passable fashion on pain of popular disturbances, as it will

2597
02:17:29,720 --> 02:17:32,119
Speaker 1: always come of popular distrust when they passed a limit

2598
02:17:32,160 --> 02:17:36,160
Speaker 1: of tolerance, the sabotage Febran argue was simply a product

2599
02:17:36,200 --> 02:17:38,560
Speaker 1: of the price system. Any production that was too efficient

2600
02:17:38,600 --> 02:17:42,480
Speaker 1: would simply and inevitably be sabotaged for private gain, because

2601
02:17:42,520 --> 02:17:45,760
Speaker 1: in order to maintain prices that would maintain the returns

2602
02:17:45,760 --> 02:17:49,000
Speaker 1: of investors, it was necessary when sure that production never

2603
02:17:49,120 --> 02:17:52,840
Speaker 1: became too efficient to produce too many goods. Feblen used

2604
02:17:52,840 --> 02:17:55,560
Speaker 1: as his example the twentieth century post office, but we

2605
02:17:55,600 --> 02:17:58,560
Speaker 1: could just easily point to Trump sabotaging the post office

2606
02:17:58,560 --> 02:18:01,959
Speaker 1: in due a bid to privatize the service by causing

2607
02:18:02,000 --> 02:18:04,480
Speaker 1: it to collapse and prevent mail and votes from being

2608
02:18:04,520 --> 02:18:06,360
Speaker 1: counted as part of his attempt to win the two

2609
02:18:06,400 --> 02:18:10,480
Speaker 1: thousand twenty election. In their book Capitalist Power, Condition, Shaan

2610
02:18:10,560 --> 02:18:14,760
Speaker 1: Bickler and Jonathan Needson take Feplin's argument and expand on it,

2611
02:18:15,640 --> 02:18:20,560
Speaker 1: noting that capitalism, far from encouraging productivity at large, makes

2612
02:18:20,600 --> 02:18:25,040
Speaker 1: things inefficient on purpose. They used the example of public transportation,

2613
02:18:25,600 --> 02:18:28,400
Speaker 1: which is by bay, essentially any measure a significantly more

2614
02:18:28,400 --> 02:18:32,359
Speaker 1: efficient way of moving people around the US. As an example,

2615
02:18:33,200 --> 02:18:36,039
Speaker 1: in the US and the nineteen forties, a hundred electric

2616
02:18:36,080 --> 02:18:38,400
Speaker 1: rail lines were brought up and destroyed by car companies.

2617
02:18:39,680 --> 02:18:44,240
Speaker 1: Those same companies likewise twice destroyed incredibly efficient and popular

2618
02:18:44,280 --> 02:18:47,200
Speaker 1: electric cars, once in the nineteen thirties and again in

2619
02:18:47,240 --> 02:18:50,000
Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties because the profit rate was lower than

2620
02:18:50,040 --> 02:18:53,119
Speaker 1: that of gas cars. They then set out to cause

2621
02:18:53,160 --> 02:18:55,560
Speaker 1: everyone to forget that they had actually done this until

2622
02:18:55,600 --> 02:18:57,840
Speaker 1: Elon Musk figured out a way to sell electric cars

2623
02:18:57,840 --> 02:19:00,879
Speaker 1: that was profitable, namely by selling himself as a brand

2624
02:19:00,920 --> 02:19:03,920
Speaker 1: and not the cars themselves. Now, if capitalism was simply

2625
02:19:03,959 --> 02:19:07,279
Speaker 1: destroying its own products in order to create Elon Musks,

2626
02:19:07,320 --> 02:19:10,000
Speaker 1: you could argue that the system at least produced advancements

2627
02:19:10,040 --> 02:19:12,600
Speaker 1: before it stopped them. But the most violent forms of

2628
02:19:12,640 --> 02:19:18,119
Speaker 1: sabotage are reserved for productive systems that are simultaneously efficient

2629
02:19:18,160 --> 02:19:22,280
Speaker 1: and outside of capitalist control together. Perhaps the best known

2630
02:19:22,280 --> 02:19:25,080
Speaker 1: example of this is the East British East India companies.

2631
02:19:25,120 --> 02:19:28,400
Speaker 1: The industrialization of the Indian textile industry, not to be

2632
02:19:28,440 --> 02:19:33,120
Speaker 1: outmatched by their British forebearers, American settlers and their allies

2633
02:19:33,120 --> 02:19:36,560
Speaker 1: in the American military sterminated the buffalo herds of the

2634
02:19:36,600 --> 02:19:40,440
Speaker 1: Great Plains in an attempt to starve out the indigenous

2635
02:19:40,440 --> 02:19:43,640
Speaker 1: tribes that lived there. In doing so, they destroyed an

2636
02:19:43,720 --> 02:19:47,520
Speaker 1: enormously productive and sustainable agricultural system. They did so precisely

2637
02:19:47,600 --> 02:19:51,360
Speaker 1: because the system was efficient, so efficient, in fact, that

2638
02:19:51,400 --> 02:19:56,440
Speaker 1: it allowed indigenous tribes to repeatedly defeat the American army

2639
02:19:56,440 --> 02:19:59,160
Speaker 1: and defence of their lands. We are used to thinking

2640
02:19:59,160 --> 02:20:03,520
Speaker 1: of capitalists as the system of production, but here, amidst

2641
02:20:03,600 --> 02:20:08,480
Speaker 1: the fields of buffalo corpses something else, entirely capitalism appearing

2642
02:20:08,480 --> 02:20:12,800
Speaker 1: in its true form, a system of organized sabotage. To

2643
02:20:12,920 --> 02:20:15,959
Speaker 1: fully untangle what this means, let us return to Veblin.

2644
02:20:16,480 --> 02:20:21,320
Speaker 1: Feblin divided capitalism into two separate processes. The first he

2645
02:20:21,400 --> 02:20:26,920
Speaker 1: called industry. Industry, Feblin argued, has existed long before capitalism

2646
02:20:26,959 --> 02:20:29,320
Speaker 1: and will continue to exist long after. It has a

2647
02:20:29,320 --> 02:20:33,160
Speaker 1: bit clear and nietzs and put it quote when considered

2648
02:20:33,160 --> 02:20:37,880
Speaker 1: an isolation from contemporary business institutions. The principal goal of industry.

2649
02:20:38,240 --> 02:20:42,560
Speaker 1: It's reason, according to Veeblin, is the efficient production of

2650
02:20:42,640 --> 02:20:45,360
Speaker 1: quality goods and services for the betterment of human life.

2651
02:20:45,879 --> 02:20:50,599
Speaker 1: Industry is an inherently collective undertaking. The basis is cooperation

2652
02:20:50,640 --> 02:20:54,600
Speaker 1: and integration, the creation of communo knowledge that allows production

2653
02:20:54,640 --> 02:20:58,720
Speaker 1: and scientific advance to occur, and coordination and cooperation between

2654
02:20:58,760 --> 02:21:01,760
Speaker 1: people to create things for each other. Left to its

2655
02:21:01,760 --> 02:21:04,800
Speaker 1: own devices, industry would simply produce goods for people. It

2656
02:21:04,879 --> 02:21:10,199
Speaker 1: has no concern for profitability, rates of returns, or capitalization. Unfortunately,

2657
02:21:10,400 --> 02:21:13,640
Speaker 1: capitalism is defined by private ownership. This is what Veblen

2658
02:21:13,640 --> 02:21:17,240
Speaker 1: calls business. Business is a system of power that extracts

2659
02:21:17,400 --> 02:21:20,920
Speaker 1: wealth from industry by means of sabotage production to serve

2660
02:21:21,040 --> 02:21:25,039
Speaker 1: human need. The basis of industry is useless to business

2661
02:21:25,120 --> 02:21:27,520
Speaker 1: unless it can be turned into a revenue stream. It

2662
02:21:27,560 --> 02:21:30,560
Speaker 1: does this by taking control of industry and its products

2663
02:21:30,560 --> 02:21:33,480
Speaker 1: and the restricting access to it particular and NICHS input it.

2664
02:21:34,040 --> 02:21:37,520
Speaker 1: The most important feature of private ownership is not that

2665
02:21:37,600 --> 02:21:40,560
Speaker 1: it enables those who own, but that it disables those

2666
02:21:40,560 --> 02:21:44,520
Speaker 1: who do not. Technically, anyone can get in someone else's

2667
02:21:44,560 --> 02:21:47,200
Speaker 1: car and drive away, or given order to sell all

2668
02:21:47,240 --> 02:21:51,400
Speaker 1: of Warren Buffett shares in Berkshire hathaway. The purpose of

2669
02:21:51,440 --> 02:21:55,240
Speaker 1: private ownership is wholly and only an institution of exclusion.

2670
02:21:55,920 --> 02:22:00,520
Speaker 1: An institutional exclusion is a matter of organized power. As

2671
02:22:00,560 --> 02:22:02,959
Speaker 1: we can see from the genocide on the plains. This

2672
02:22:03,160 --> 02:22:06,120
Speaker 1: power is no abstract force. Beblin tends to focus on

2673
02:22:06,160 --> 02:22:09,400
Speaker 1: the power of absentee owners to stop production, and for

2674
02:22:09,480 --> 02:22:12,560
Speaker 1: good reason, but business stands in the way of industry

2675
02:22:13,040 --> 02:22:16,320
Speaker 1: in more immediate ways too. After all, the purpose of

2676
02:22:16,360 --> 02:22:19,560
Speaker 1: cooperative industry is to make goods to improve our lives.

2677
02:22:19,879 --> 02:22:22,920
Speaker 1: And yet in between us and the proceeds that industry

2678
02:22:23,000 --> 02:22:26,240
Speaker 1: creates to serve our needs, there is a cash register

2679
02:22:26,320 --> 02:22:30,000
Speaker 1: in a cop Even the creators of a Louis Vetton bag,

2680
02:22:30,520 --> 02:22:34,039
Speaker 1: or for that matter, a tomato, have no claim on

2681
02:22:34,080 --> 02:22:36,880
Speaker 1: it once business takes over, and business would rather destroy

2682
02:22:36,920 --> 02:22:39,400
Speaker 1: it than see it fall into their hands. The famous

2683
02:22:39,480 --> 02:22:43,600
Speaker 1: Russian anarchist theorist Peter Kirpotkin was writing along similar lines

2684
02:22:43,640 --> 02:22:46,680
Speaker 1: to Feblyn just a few years before Feblen, it seems,

2685
02:22:46,680 --> 02:22:49,440
Speaker 1: have been exposed to anarchist ideas through its association with

2686
02:22:49,480 --> 02:22:53,120
Speaker 1: the industrial workers of the world. In early nineteen hundreds,

2687
02:22:53,120 --> 02:22:55,960
Speaker 1: it was not altogether unusual for economists to move in

2688
02:22:56,080 --> 02:23:00,560
Speaker 1: radical circles. The great Italian economist Piero's rap for smuggled

2689
02:23:00,600 --> 02:23:03,920
Speaker 1: pens and papers to Antonio Gramsey, while Grumsey, the head

2690
02:23:03,920 --> 02:23:07,080
Speaker 1: of the Italian Communist Party, was a prisoner with the

2691
02:23:07,120 --> 02:23:10,720
Speaker 1: Italian Fascist regime. Grapha would later extract the writings that

2692
02:23:12,040 --> 02:23:16,680
Speaker 1: Crumpsy had written in prison, unleashing Gramsey's prison notebooks onto

2693
02:23:16,720 --> 02:23:19,600
Speaker 1: the world. But Feblin was unique even among these economists

2694
02:23:19,600 --> 02:23:22,400
Speaker 1: for the extent that he incorporated radical theories directly into

2695
02:23:22,440 --> 02:23:26,360
Speaker 1: his work. As you've seen, was his adoption of sabotage

2696
02:23:27,720 --> 02:23:30,520
Speaker 1: as a way of thinking about capitalism. This led Veblin

2697
02:23:30,600 --> 02:23:32,800
Speaker 1: to call the end of the system of what he

2698
02:23:32,840 --> 02:23:38,360
Speaker 1: described as vested interests and absentee owners. Feblin solution, however,

2699
02:23:38,840 --> 02:23:42,440
Speaker 1: which he described as a quote Soviet If technicians would

2700
02:23:42,440 --> 02:23:45,760
Speaker 1: manage production for all, society leaves a lot to be

2701
02:23:45,800 --> 02:23:49,200
Speaker 1: desired for. So let us return to the source, her

2702
02:23:49,280 --> 02:23:53,600
Speaker 1: spotkin and the conquest of bread. The minds, so they

2703
02:23:53,640 --> 02:23:57,160
Speaker 1: represent the labor of several generations and derive their sole

2704
02:23:57,280 --> 02:24:00,600
Speaker 1: value from the requirements of the industry of a nation

2705
02:24:00,800 --> 02:24:05,240
Speaker 1: and the density of the population. The minds also belonged

2706
02:24:05,280 --> 02:24:08,039
Speaker 1: to the few, and these few restrict the output of

2707
02:24:08,080 --> 02:24:11,480
Speaker 1: coal are prevented entirely if they find a more profitable

2708
02:24:11,520 --> 02:24:15,400
Speaker 1: investments for their capital. Machinery, too, has become the exclusive

2709
02:24:15,400 --> 02:24:19,760
Speaker 1: property of the few, and even when a machine and

2710
02:24:19,840 --> 02:24:24,440
Speaker 1: contestedly represents an improvements added to the original rough invention

2711
02:24:24,520 --> 02:24:29,360
Speaker 1: by three or four generations of workers, and nonetheless belongs

2712
02:24:29,400 --> 02:24:31,920
Speaker 1: to a few owners. And if the descendants of the

2713
02:24:32,040 --> 02:24:35,800
Speaker 1: very inventor who constructed the first machine for lace building

2714
02:24:36,000 --> 02:24:39,160
Speaker 1: a century ago were to present themselves today at a

2715
02:24:39,240 --> 02:24:42,920
Speaker 1: lace factory and bail or Nottingham and demand their rights,

2716
02:24:43,000 --> 02:24:46,560
Speaker 1: they would be told hands off, this machine is not yours,

2717
02:24:46,680 --> 02:24:48,440
Speaker 1: and they would be shot down if they attempted to

2718
02:24:48,480 --> 02:24:52,400
Speaker 1: take possession of it. Here we see the competition between

2719
02:24:52,400 --> 02:24:55,240
Speaker 1: two different kinds of rights. On the one hand, the

2720
02:24:55,360 --> 02:24:59,080
Speaker 1: right of industry, the right of creativity, the right of

2721
02:24:59,080 --> 02:25:02,560
Speaker 1: those who produce and care for each other to be

2722
02:25:02,640 --> 02:25:05,840
Speaker 1: able to determine where the proceeds of their labor go.

2723
02:25:06,320 --> 02:25:09,040
Speaker 1: From industry's point of view, this is to each other,

2724
02:25:09,800 --> 02:25:13,560
Speaker 1: to those in need, into society as a whole. On

2725
02:25:13,600 --> 02:25:15,680
Speaker 1: the other hand, there is the right of property, the

2726
02:25:15,800 --> 02:25:17,920
Speaker 1: right of men with guns to throw oysters into the

2727
02:25:17,959 --> 02:25:20,720
Speaker 1: ocean because it's not profitable for anyone to eat them.

2728
02:25:21,120 --> 02:25:25,040
Speaker 1: Capitalism has developed a myriad of iterations precisely the same principle,

2729
02:25:26,120 --> 02:25:30,480
Speaker 1: and the world is now infested by them. Patent trolls haunt.

2730
02:25:30,520 --> 02:25:34,640
Speaker 1: They already fraught waters of intellectual property, buying up patents

2731
02:25:34,640 --> 02:25:38,039
Speaker 1: for cheap or on rare occasions, creating something themselves for

2732
02:25:38,120 --> 02:25:41,800
Speaker 1: the sole purpose, or preventing anyone else from using it,

2733
02:25:41,920 --> 02:25:45,240
Speaker 1: making money by suing anyone who dares try. Large corporations,

2734
02:25:45,280 --> 02:25:48,439
Speaker 1: of course, stu precisely the same thing, see for example,

2735
02:25:48,840 --> 02:25:52,360
Speaker 1: Disney's War and the concept of anything, anything at all,

2736
02:25:52,879 --> 02:25:56,480
Speaker 1: falling into the public domain, the sabotage, and on this

2737
02:25:56,720 --> 02:26:01,640
Speaker 1: all four of our interlocutors, Veblen, Popkin clear needs and

2738
02:26:01,720 --> 02:26:05,920
Speaker 1: degree as long as private ownership exists, because sabotage is

2739
02:26:06,000 --> 02:26:09,840
Speaker 1: all private ownership really is. But it is not simply

2740
02:26:09,959 --> 02:26:13,360
Speaker 1: enough to answer corporate sabotage with their own sabotage. As

2741
02:26:13,480 --> 02:26:16,440
Speaker 1: Veblen pointed out, this is simply the ordinary state of

2742
02:26:16,440 --> 02:26:21,160
Speaker 1: affairs enter capitalism. For Capotkin, the answer was simple. This

2743
02:26:21,360 --> 02:26:26,640
Speaker 1: rich endowments, painfully one builded, fashioned, or invented by our ancestors,

2744
02:26:27,120 --> 02:26:29,800
Speaker 1: must become common property so that the collective interests of

2745
02:26:29,840 --> 02:26:33,000
Speaker 1: men may gain from it. The greatest good for all,

2746
02:26:33,160 --> 02:26:36,200
Speaker 1: There must be appropriation the well being of all, the

2747
02:26:36,400 --> 02:26:41,199
Speaker 1: end expropriation. The means how precisely to go about doing

2748
02:26:41,240 --> 02:26:43,160
Speaker 1: such a thing as been the subject of endless debate

2749
02:26:43,200 --> 02:26:45,680
Speaker 1: for nearly two hundred years. And I am not arrogant

2750
02:26:45,760 --> 02:26:49,240
Speaker 1: enough to propose to solve the problem here. But a

2751
02:26:49,320 --> 02:26:52,720
Speaker 1: system where a company can prevent even the US government

2752
02:26:52,760 --> 02:26:56,280
Speaker 1: from attempting to produce ventilators by simply buying up the

2753
02:26:56,320 --> 02:26:59,280
Speaker 1: company that won the contract and refusing to fill the

2754
02:26:59,400 --> 02:27:02,120
Speaker 1: order to maintain the value of the ventilators it was

2755
02:27:02,160 --> 02:27:05,280
Speaker 1: already producing. Is a system based on nothing less than

2756
02:27:05,360 --> 02:27:08,280
Speaker 1: ensuring that people will die for or five percent rate

2757
02:27:08,320 --> 02:27:11,840
Speaker 1: of return. If we are to have any hope of

2758
02:27:12,000 --> 02:27:15,840
Speaker 1: stopping the ravages that climate change promises for our future,

2759
02:27:16,400 --> 02:27:23,760
Speaker 1: we cannot afford to be sabotaged at every stop. Hey,

2760
02:27:23,840 --> 02:27:26,959
Speaker 1: We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from

2761
02:27:27,000 --> 02:27:30,360
Speaker 1: now until the heat death of the universe. It could happen.

2762
02:27:30,400 --> 02:27:32,680
Speaker 1: Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For more

2763
02:27:32,760 --> 02:27:35,520
Speaker 1: podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone

2764
02:27:35,560 --> 02:27:37,400
Speaker 1: media dot com, or check us out on the I

2765
02:27:37,520 --> 02:27:40,120
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to

2766
02:27:40,200 --> 02:27:43,000
Speaker 1: podcasts you can find sources for It could happen here.

2767
02:27:43,120 --> 02:27:46,520
Speaker 1: Updated monthly at cool Zone media dot com slash sources.

2768
02:27:46,760 --> 02:27:47,520
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.