1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome 2 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: to the show Ridiculous Historians. As always, thank you so 3 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: much for tuning in. It's uh, it's some of your 4 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: favorite Quentin Quarantine nos back again, live and somewhat direct 5 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:42,520 Speaker 1: to you. My name is Ben Boland, my writer die 6 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: co host Noel Brown is off on an adventure, and 7 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: we are off on an adventure all our own. This 8 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: is part two of our exploration of Unintended Consequences, which, 9 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 1: as super producer Casey Pegram mentioned in our first part 10 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: of this series, is one of the easiest ways to 11 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: define history. I'm still I'm still tripping out about that one, Casey. 12 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,960 Speaker 1: I thought that was a great definition. I'm I'm loving 13 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 1: the the unintended consequences so far, especially the political ramifications 14 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: of air conditioning. That is not one that I had 15 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: thought of even in the least so um, I'm really 16 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: excited to hear where we go in part two. Yes, likewise, now, 17 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 1: because this is a two part series, folks, if you 18 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:32,320 Speaker 1: haven't heard part one, you're still you're still going to 19 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 1: enjoy this, but it will make you know you should 20 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: listen to part one, is what I'm saying. It will 21 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 1: make way more sense. So we're just gonna pause for 22 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: a second and then come back after you listen to 23 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: part one. Casyqun get like some waiting room music. Perfect, 24 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: welcome back. All right. So, now that we're all caught up, 25 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: as as we said in part one of this series, 26 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: Casey and Noel and Spirit and I are not are 27 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:11,519 Speaker 1: not adventuring into this wild territory alone, we contacted an expert, 28 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:17,799 Speaker 1: the creator and host of the new I Heart podcast Flashback, 29 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: who himself is and I promises the last time I'll 30 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 1: say it, Sean who himself is a polly math Sean Braswell, 31 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 1: thank you again for coming on the show. Thanks for 32 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: having me back then. I had such a good time 33 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: last time through the magic of podcast entity. You're a 34 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 1: natural charge. Yes, likewise, I think this has been um 35 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 1: this has already been a pretty revelatory learning experience for 36 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:48,359 Speaker 1: me and I think for you as well. Casey right, absolutely, 37 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: like I said, I'm all years I am. I am 38 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 1: fascinated by this topic. So in our previous episode, we 39 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: learned that the Y m c A, with the best 40 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: of intention, had done some somewhat villainous things to America's 41 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:09,919 Speaker 1: military forces. Uh. We also learned, as you said, casey Uh, 42 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: that air conditioning has affected the world and society in 43 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 1: ways that we we didn't fully understand until Sean cluded 44 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 1: us in. But Sean, you had mentioned earlier that there 45 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 1: was more to this story of cigarettes, and I think 46 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 1: I think we got so excited when it was like, 47 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:32,399 Speaker 1: tell me more about air conditioning, tell me more about 48 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: blah blah blah uh that that we didn't We didn't 49 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: fully explore the unintended consequences of cigarettes. No, when we 50 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: had left off in part one, you had made this 51 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: brilliant connection between the loss of tax revenue during prohibition 52 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: and the way that Uncle Sam searched to make up 53 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: for it, which ultimately became cigarette taxes. You said at 54 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: the beginning it wasn't stuff you would really notice unless 55 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: you were literally a penny pincher. Right, It's right. And 56 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: it wasn't just Uncle Sam that got into the bonanza 57 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: that was cigarette taxes. A lot of states started to 58 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: follow suit. I think I was the first one in 59 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: nineteen one that they enacted a state level cigarette tax, 60 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 1: and and you know, by the nineteen thirties more than 61 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 1: thirty states had done the same. But of course, not 62 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: all states tax at the same rate, but like we 63 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: talked about, it was mostly pennies on the dollar, and 64 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: so they were really just small time criminals and smugglers 65 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: that would take advantage of this different rate between states, 66 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,359 Speaker 1: and they might you know, smuggle a few cartons of 67 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: cigarettes from New Jersey over the river into New York 68 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 1: and and UH and likewise. Um, but it was it 69 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: was not something that was a huge money making venture 70 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:50,720 Speaker 1: for criminals yet, right, you know, I surely I'm not 71 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:54,039 Speaker 1: the only person in the audience thinking this, but one 72 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 1: one of the things that mystified me when I moved 73 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: to UH Cities for the first time, you know, was 74 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: that in cities people could buy a single cigarette, a 75 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 1: square or a lucy, which I didn't understand for a 76 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:16,479 Speaker 1: long time. I think I had like I knew that 77 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: cigarettes were a big business, but I had no idea 78 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 1: just how much money they were making across various, um like, 79 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:30,599 Speaker 1: various parts of the world, various parts of the US, 80 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: and in various levels of society. You know, I was 81 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:39,160 Speaker 1: one of those people. It was super naive when I 82 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: learned about cigarettes smuggling. It seems so strange to me, 83 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 1: you know that what that one would smuggle something that 84 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: was legal, but apparently it was kind of profitable at 85 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: some point, absolutely, and it became really profitable after nine 86 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:02,719 Speaker 1: And that was when another well intentioned act. We talked 87 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: about the y m C a last time, when they're 88 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: well intentioned provision of cigarettes during World War One. Well, 89 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: nineteen s four, the U. S. Surgeon General comes out 90 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:15,840 Speaker 1: with his famous Smoking Report, which links cigarette smoking too, 91 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 1: you know, lung cancer and other causes of death. And 92 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 1: it's at that point a lot of the states say, 93 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: we've got to do something about this. We have this 94 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: major disincentive we can put on smoking, which is to 95 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: increase the taxes we impose upon it, and so a 96 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: lot of very progressive states like New York start to 97 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:38,479 Speaker 1: do that. Rights, right, some of this is a you know, 98 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:41,559 Speaker 1: it might be called a syntax right in some parts 99 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: of the world. Um, clearly, this is an economic lever 100 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 1: that is is pretty old and has been proven to work. 101 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: You'll any New Yorkers in the audience will recognize this. 102 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: This attempt in various other products, right, like the idea 103 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:03,719 Speaker 1: that should pay more in taxes for things like alcohol 104 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: when probition was repealed, or that one should. Maybe I'm 105 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: thinking like there was a silly example a few years ago, 106 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: I want to say, New York with the idea of 107 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: taxing sugary drinks like soda, pop right and this stuff. 108 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: These moves were almost universally reviled by a lot of 109 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 1: people who are fans of booze or fans of cigarettes, 110 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: or fans of you know, fanta. I'm just you know, 111 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: we're based here in atlantishn It's it's really difficult for 112 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 1: us to think of a soda that's not Coca cola, 113 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: but we're giving it. We're giving the college go. So 114 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 1: how much of a difference though? Are are we talking? 115 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 1: And how would this kind of operation? How would it work? 116 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: Is it something that people started doing on a regular 117 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: basis like organized crime level involvement? Absolutely? Um And to 118 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: give you a sense for the profit margins involved here, 119 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 1: So for ample, I think in New York, if you 120 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: add in the state tax and in the city tax, 121 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: it costs about five dollars and eighty five cents for 122 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: a pack of cigarettes or about sixty dollars for a 123 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: carton of cigarettes. Uh. Whereas in North Carolina where I live, 124 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: which very tobacco friendly state, because we produce a lot 125 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: of tobacco. It's it's more like five dollars in tax 126 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: per carton. So you can make fifty five dollars per 127 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 1: carton of cigarettes by selling North Carolina cigarettes in New York. 128 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: And if you think about that, they're about fifty thousand 129 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: cartons that can fit on a truck. So if you're 130 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: making about five dollars in tax per carton, I mean 131 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 1: you're you're talking more than two million dollars in potential 132 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: profit per truck of cigarettes. I think we got into 133 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 1: the wrong business casey like, uh, you know, ethically, there 134 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: are I admit a couple of problems, but we could 135 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 1: have been smoked tycoons. Man. We missed our calling them, 136 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: we miss we missed our colleague, and now now we 137 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 1: are we missed our calling. We found our podcasting. But 138 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:05,839 Speaker 1: this might surprise people to realize that millions of dollars 139 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:09,319 Speaker 1: are on the line. And when we get to when 140 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: we get to the idea of tax fraud, because that's 141 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: what this is, tax fraud on this level, then I 142 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 1: imagine this is something that the government is not going 143 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:21,319 Speaker 1: to take laying down right, No, not at all. I 144 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: think the estimate is that that New York State loses 145 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: something like one billion dollars in tax revenue because of 146 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:31,200 Speaker 1: black market cigarettes each year. Wow. And and I mean 147 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: clearly they're they're trying to catch people. They have to 148 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:38,199 Speaker 1: have some successful bust because how else would they get 149 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: that estimate right exactly? And they are pursuing cigarettes smuggling 150 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: cases all the time. Just last year here in North Carolina, 151 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:50,959 Speaker 1: down in Fayetteville, they busted up an operation that I 152 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: think was about an eight million dollar operation involved fifty 153 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 1: to sixty people. It was basically an unmarked candy store, 154 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: a gray candy store building in Fayetteville that was basically 155 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: the hideout for an enormous cigarette smuggling operation I did. Okay, 156 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: before I say this, I want to be very clear, 157 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 1: I'm not condoning the actions of this cigarette smuggling ring, 158 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 1: and we're certainly not advocating that anybody break the law. 159 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: But honestly, you guys, it feels like those folks have 160 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 1: lives there are so much more interesting than my own. 161 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: You know, they're they're they're cigarette tycoons. Uh, They're going 162 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: on cool road trips all the time. So I imagine 163 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: they're probably quite stressful do you see this problem, uh 164 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 1: continuing into the future. Sean. Do you think this is 165 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: like this illegal industry is going to be, you know, 166 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:52,559 Speaker 1: historically a flash in the pan or is the money 167 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: just too compelling? Absolutely? I mean it's not just small 168 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: crime syndicates in the US, it's terrorist groups. The Irish 169 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 1: Repel book An Army back in its heyday was smuggling cigarettes. 170 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:06,679 Speaker 1: Saddam Hussein's son U Day was a cigarette smuggler. Um. 171 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 1: I don't know if you remember the first bombing of 172 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 1: the World Trade Center back in New York. The terrorists 173 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:15,439 Speaker 1: who places that truck bomb in the parking garage were 174 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:19,320 Speaker 1: funded thanks to cigarette smuggling. And you see it with 175 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:24,319 Speaker 1: terrorist training camps in Afghanistan Hezbollah constantly they're breaking up 176 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 1: cigarette rings that that that lead to terrorists funding. And 177 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 1: I think as long as there is a tax differential 178 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: that creates an arbitrage opportunity for criminals, that sort of 179 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 1: crime is going to continue. Um. One of the the 180 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: silver lines, one of the bright patches to that and 181 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:48,199 Speaker 1: which may eventually lead to a decline because I don't 182 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 1: think you can probably ever expect every state in the 183 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:55,079 Speaker 1: US to get together and uniformly choose the same level 184 00:11:55,440 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 1: of taxes. Is that cigarette use is going down n steadily, 185 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:05,560 Speaker 1: and I think ultimately that might be what kills cigarettes smuggling, 186 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 1: just the use of cigarettes overall, but even that is 187 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: obviously a long term venture. Wait a second, though, I 188 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 1: feel like we buried the lead terrorism, So so you know, 189 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 1: everybody knew one of the one of the bad effects 190 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: of cigarette smoking is is cancer. But I think many 191 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: of us are going to be surprised to learn that 192 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 1: smoking cigarettes may actually be supporting terrorism. That's just not 193 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 1: like my go to conclusion now, And that's kind of 194 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 1: what we do in the podcast episode on Flashback that 195 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: we do. We we sort of trace how this magnanimous 196 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 1: gesture by the y m c A a hundred years 197 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 1: ago in World War One eventually leads to billions of 198 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 1: dollars in revenue for terrorists. And if you'd like to 199 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: learn more, I certainly encourage you to do so. Do 200 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: check out Flashback because this this is not the entirety 201 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: of the Twisted Tail, and I think it's a it's 202 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 1: a journey worth taking. There was one case Seun that 203 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: you had investigated on Flashback that spoke to me in 204 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 1: casey maybe spoke to you in particular, being that we 205 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 1: reside like you in the American South, and that is 206 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: the concept of one of the most successful invasive species 207 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 1: in this part of the world. Uh, folks, you know it. 208 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 1: You might love it, you might hate it, you know, 209 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: but you are definitely aware of the monster known as kudzu. 210 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 1: That's right. Anyone who has spent any amount of time 211 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: in the South, particularly on highways, has seen kad zoo, 212 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: the invasive vian climbing everywhere. I think the most famous 213 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,959 Speaker 1: nickname for it is the vine that ate the South. Yeah. Yeah, 214 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:58,079 Speaker 1: And while that might sound riddled with hyperbole, it makes 215 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 1: sense if you drive and where, you know, through the Carolinas, anywhere, 216 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:10,959 Speaker 1: through Georgia, Tennessee, Alabama, kad Zoo is a huge success 217 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 1: story biologically speaking. Now, I believe that the vine originally 218 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: came from China. Is that correct? It was actually a 219 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: Japanese ornamental vine, and it first appeared in the US, 220 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 1: actually at the World's Fair in in eighteen seventy six. 221 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: So if you can imagine there's this centennial international exhibition 222 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 1: in Philadelphia, You've got things like Henry Hines's Catchup, Graham 223 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: Bell's first telephone, Thomas Edison's telegraph. And then you've got 224 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: a Japanese pavilion that it basically has kud zoo in 225 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: it as an ornamental vine, and it was popular for 226 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: for a few decades as as an ornamental vine, and 227 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 1: especially in New England. In the US. Yeah, like a 228 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: porch decoration, I think, which which might surprise a lot 229 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: of us in the audience today to learn that, yes, 230 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 1: once upon a time people purposefully put kad zoo up 231 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 1: in their house on the sides of their of their domicile, 232 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: and they additionally paid for it. But this, you know, 233 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 1: kad zoo was not gonna settle for being a nifty 234 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 1: uh a nifty porch decoration. How did it? How did 235 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 1: it go from you know, something that would be in 236 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: an eighteen hundreds addition of like home and garden to 237 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: this uh to this thing that spans miles across the 238 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 1: south Well, kadzu, as prolific as it is, got a 239 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: big boost in the nineteen thirties. And and that was 240 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: during the Desk Bowl and the Great Depression. And as 241 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 1: you as you know, during the Desk Bowl, a severe 242 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 1: drought over the American planes caused sort of winds and 243 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: choking dust to sweep this broad swath of America from 244 00:15:55,880 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 1: Texas to Nebraska. And uh, so there's a real problem 245 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 1: with soil erosion. And uh President Franklin Roosevelt had a 246 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 1: pretty good idea when he when he took office, he 247 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 1: decided he was going to solve two problems at once, 248 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 1: basically a labor shortage and this soil erosion by creating 249 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: this new organization he called the Civilian Conservation Core. And 250 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 1: one of the things he had this army of new 251 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 1: government employees do, and in the Despol area, was to 252 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 1: plant what they called a miracle vine, kut zoo, And 253 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 1: they planted more than seventy million kud zoo seedlings during 254 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties in government run nurseries and farmers were 255 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: paid and I think it was something like eight dollars 256 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: an acre to plant the vine. So the government was 257 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 1: paying people to plant kut zoo as a as a 258 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 1: soil erosion measure. Okay, And ostensibly, you know, on the surface, 259 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 1: that makes sense, right. We want something to hold the 260 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: ground where the ground is supposed to be. And of 261 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: course during the dust bowl, we are looking at a 262 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 1: tremendous ecological disaster. Uh. You know, famine is on the 263 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: rise in the US at this time. Uh. This is 264 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:15,640 Speaker 1: also you know, from from a long term position, this 265 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: could spell agricultural doom if if something is not done. 266 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 1: So it's not as if uh this was an idea 267 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,679 Speaker 1: that they undertook lightly, but it is probably an idea 268 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: they undertook out of desperation. As you said, they also 269 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:34,680 Speaker 1: wanted to give people jobs exactly. And you know, desperate 270 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:38,199 Speaker 1: situations call for for desperate measures, but sometimes that in 271 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:41,679 Speaker 1: turn creates even more desperate situations. Yeah, that's that's what 272 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,640 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about. You know, as we're talking about Kudzoo, 273 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:48,679 Speaker 1: I'm I'm thinking about the various places here in our 274 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 1: fair metropolis of Atlanta where human beings appear to have 275 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: just lost lost a battle against this vine. You know. Uh, 276 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 1: we're we're so familiar with descriptions of hungry ecosystems, right 277 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: like jungles that due to their humidity and due to 278 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: the flora and fauna, uh, they seem to literally eat 279 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 1: buildings and the works of man. But this is occurring 280 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 1: in in a city near you, if you live in 281 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: the in the American South. No, it also reminds me 282 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:27,959 Speaker 1: of Fantasia in Casey Sorry, I know I used this 283 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 1: example all the time where Mickey Mouse is the sorcerer's apprentice, 284 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: decides to automate the mop process right because he doesn't 285 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:41,120 Speaker 1: want to mop his boss's castle or whatever, and then 286 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 1: the mops get out of control. The next thing you know, 287 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 1: he is literally and figuratively in over his head. Was 288 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 1: there a point like that with kadzu? Was there a 289 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: point where the Workers Program said like, hey, we should stop. No, 290 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: I don't think there was any real inkling in the 291 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:03,120 Speaker 1: just how invasive this vine would eventually be. I mean, 292 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: in fact, even after the thirties, people who were building 293 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 1: the railroads and the highways across the South, when we 294 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:12,200 Speaker 1: started having a you know, an interstate highway system, they 295 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: chose kad zoo as a vegetation they could use to 296 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: cover causeways and embankments to you know, make things look 297 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 1: a little nicer on these interstate roads. And kad zoo, 298 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 1: you know, there were no cows there to eat it. 299 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: On the highway, there were no horses to eat it, 300 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,120 Speaker 1: so once you planted it, it didn't really have any 301 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 1: natural enemy, so it could just grow and grow and 302 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 1: grow along highways and railways, which is still predominantly where 303 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: you see it today. Yeah, and it's taken over, you know, 304 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:43,119 Speaker 1: entire lots, maybe where development of a neighborhood stalled or 305 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 1: a building was condemned. Because quickly, you know, when you 306 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 1: get into reconstruction and you get into development, it becomes 307 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 1: apparent that cleaning up kad zoo is uh an enormously 308 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: difficult task because of its growth rate, but it can 309 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 1: also be an enormously expensive task, also partially because of 310 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 1: its growth rate. One thing I think would be pretty 311 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:12,159 Speaker 1: familiar to you in North Carolina, there is the way, 312 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: the creative way that various human institutions have tried to 313 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: combat kad zoo or to live with it. Everybody in 314 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:24,120 Speaker 1: the South has at least once heard about a recipe 315 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 1: using kad zoo. Have you ever have you, guys, ever 316 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: tried anything with kudzoo. I've never tried it. I I 317 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:32,400 Speaker 1: know that a lot of people consider it to be 318 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 1: something on the lines of spin it. You can eat 319 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: it cooked or raw in keisha's or salads um, but 320 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 1: I've never done it personally. What about you, Casey, No, 321 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 1: I cannot I cannot speak to you having consumed kudzo before. Um, 322 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 1: this is all just reminding me like personal experience growing 323 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: up in Georgia. We had terrible problems in our backyard 324 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 1: with a neighbor who had planted bamboo next door, and 325 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:58,920 Speaker 1: the bamboo would just find its way underneath the fence 326 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: and shoot up into our back art and you cut 327 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: some down and it just regrows again. And I'm seeing 328 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:06,400 Speaker 1: here online the kud zoo and bamboo have a very 329 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 1: similar effect when they're when they're introduced into an environment, 330 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,400 Speaker 1: they tend to be very difficult to to get out. Yeah. 331 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:17,400 Speaker 1: Interesting story. Uh with our city, bamboo grows pretty well 332 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 1: here because of our climate. And for a while I 333 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,160 Speaker 1: had a dream job when I learned about this in college. 334 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:29,159 Speaker 1: For years and years, the Atlanta Zoo had a crack 335 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:33,639 Speaker 1: team of nine guys whose entire job was to go 336 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:37,359 Speaker 1: around the city and gather bamboo for the pandas at 337 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: the zoo. That's all they did. They woke up in 338 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 1: the morning, they went to various people's houses and little 339 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: hidden you know, areas of the wild. They gathered bamboo, 340 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 1: and they showed up to meet some very excited pandas. 341 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: That is that is a dream job. I mean, maybe 342 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:59,199 Speaker 1: even better than cigarette Ycoon. I don't know. I do 343 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 1: have to ask the I do have to ask what 344 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 1: is your take on kad Zoo? Now, Sean, do you 345 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 1: feel like people should just make peace with it? Should 346 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 1: the war continue? Is it? Should we just take it 347 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: as a as a lesson in the unforeseen consequences of 348 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 1: our actions? Well, I think the most interesting thing I 349 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 1: learned about kad Zoo is that, and as you could 350 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 1: probably tell from hearing the three of us who have 351 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: had Southern experiences for it, is that it captured kind 352 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: of a mythic imagination of sorts. It was something that 353 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: took over that was invasive, that was kind of the 354 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:35,199 Speaker 1: you know, the bad boy of invasive plant species. But 355 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: it's not actually the most invasive specie in the US. 356 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 1: There are others that are far worse. And one of 357 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:43,399 Speaker 1: the interesting things I learned was basically that it's not 358 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:47,879 Speaker 1: as bad as we think. Um, the Kadzuo, you know, 359 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 1: it's not really the vine that ate the South. It's 360 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:51,919 Speaker 1: the vine that ate the part of the South that 361 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 1: we could see, like, it's the vine that's on the 362 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:57,400 Speaker 1: highways and the railways, and so it had a much 363 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: bigger impact on our imagination than on reality. So, for example, 364 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,400 Speaker 1: in the U. S. Forest Service finally did a survey 365 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 1: of how widespread kad zoo was in fact, And for 366 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 1: a long time you had heard something like nine ten 367 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:13,120 Speaker 1: million acres of it in the southeastern US. But they 368 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:15,919 Speaker 1: surveys turned up that there were less than two hundred 369 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 1: thousand acres of kad zoo, which is less than one 370 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: tenth of one percent of the forest land in the 371 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 1: in the southern United States. So it's not as big 372 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 1: a problem as we think it is. It feels like 373 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,639 Speaker 1: it is, but it's something that has kind of just 374 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:35,680 Speaker 1: captured our collective imaginations. So wait, this whole time, I've 375 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: been unfairly detigrading kad Zoo. I feel like a real pill. Uh, 376 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 1: you know, I've been unfair. I think you know what. 377 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,440 Speaker 1: I feel like one of the lower tier villains in 378 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,400 Speaker 1: a Captain Planet episode. Right now. I mean, what can 379 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,440 Speaker 1: we do to to make things right with kad Zoo? 380 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 1: What what are the more invasive species that people don't 381 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 1: think about? Let me turn my opprobrium to them. I 382 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: think Asian wis theory is the one that I heard 383 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 1: them come up the most as as being far more 384 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: invasive than kud Zoo. But then you're certainly not alone 385 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: in in feeling like you, oh, Kudzoo an apology. It's 386 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,640 Speaker 1: it's something that is just widespread in the South, and 387 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 1: in some ways it's a myth that's grown up alongside 388 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 1: American history. You know. It grew at the same time 389 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 1: the interstate highway system was growing, and so as we 390 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:28,160 Speaker 1: became more mobile, as we saw more of the countryside 391 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,400 Speaker 1: than we've ever seen before, we saw more Kudzoo because 392 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 1: that's where it was, and it felt like it was 393 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 1: a much worse problem than it really is. It was. 394 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: It was really the king of the forest. It was 395 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: the king of the roadside. And if you grew up 396 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:42,919 Speaker 1: in the South looking out the car window, that's what 397 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 1: you thought. Yeah, this is an excellent point, and I think, 398 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,359 Speaker 1: you know, I think there's so much more to this story. 399 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 1: If you want to hear it firsthand, folks, then get 400 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 1: the to your podcast platform of choice. And joined Sean 401 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,640 Speaker 1: Braswell on Flashback, the one of the newest podcasts. From 402 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 1: my Heart, We're just scratching the surface, not just of Kadzu, 403 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:10,639 Speaker 1: not just of the apparently booming a legal cigarette trade. Um, 404 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 1: we're air conditioning, but we're touching on the vast unintended 405 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 1: consequences of so many different periods, places, and events in 406 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,880 Speaker 1: US history and in the history of the world overall. 407 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 1: Uh Sean, first off, thank you so much for taking 408 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:35,440 Speaker 1: the time to explore this with us today. For people 409 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 1: who would like to learn more, where can they find Flashback? 410 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 1: Absolutely thanks for having me. You can find Flashback History 411 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 1: is Unintended Consequences on on Apple Podcasts or I Heart 412 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: Radio podcast Network or wherever you get your podcasts each 413 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:54,959 Speaker 1: week on AUSI dot com, oz Y dot com slash Flashback. 414 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 1: I have lecture notes that I published the go along 415 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,080 Speaker 1: with the series, which are just some other in just 416 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 1: some kidbits, cutting room floor interviews, and and other things 417 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 1: related to the subjects that we talked about in the podcast. Folks, 418 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: this is a fantastic show. Don't take my word for it. 419 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 1: Check it out for yourself today and let us know 420 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: what you think. Also, also, don't don't hesitate to uh Sean, 421 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,440 Speaker 1: I'm gonna volunteer you here for some stuff. Uh don't 422 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: hesitate to reach out to Sean and the team with 423 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 1: your to us with your own stories. Of unintended consequences 424 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: throughout history. We would love to hear them. You can 425 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 1: tell us on you know, Ridiculous History somewhere on the internet. 426 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 1: We're all over the place. Where on Twitter, We're on Facebook, 427 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 1: We're on Instagram. Shout out to our Facebook community page, 428 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:47,879 Speaker 1: Ridiculous Historians, Uh, Sean. If someone would like to contact 429 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 1: you directly on social where should they go? Yeah, I 430 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 1: think the best way to reach me with regard to 431 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:57,159 Speaker 1: the podcast is by emailing Flashback at Aussi dot com. 432 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,639 Speaker 1: That's flashback at oz y dot com. We've been inviting 433 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,440 Speaker 1: people to share with us uh their own stories of 434 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: unintended consequences from their life or just stories from history 435 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 1: that we might want to do a future episode about. 436 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 1: So check it out. That's Flashback at Aussie dot com. 437 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 1: Thank you again so much, Sean braswell. We look forward 438 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,920 Speaker 1: to explore it some more strange stories of history with 439 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,880 Speaker 1: you in the future. Thanks as always to Alex Williams, 440 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,440 Speaker 1: who composed that banging track you here at the beginning 441 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 1: of every Ridiculous History episode. Thanks of course to the 442 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: usual the Ridiculous Historian regulars, uh, Christopher Aciotis, eve's Jeff Coote, 443 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:45,119 Speaker 1: our research guru Gabelusier, who refuses to tell us the 444 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 1: correct way to pronounce his last name. That is a fact. 445 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 1: And of course thanks to my palinoell here in spirit 446 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 1: casey Pegram. Thanks to you also. What do you think 447 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: should we ask people to send some kudzoo recipes? If 448 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 1: they If they send them, do you guys want to 449 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: try them? I'll mail something to you Sean. Yeah. When when, uh, 450 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 1: when we're all together again, I think we should cook 451 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: up some kud zoo and uh and see what it's 452 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 1: all about. Thanks so much, folks, We'll see you next week. 453 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the I 454 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 455 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:27,159 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.